At what precise point did Woody Allen become crap?

I don't think he became crap he was always pretty hit and miss. Great films post-Manhattan:

"Hannah and Her Sisters", "Crimes and Misdemeanors", "Manhattan Murder Mystery" and especially "Deconstructing Harry".

xpost

Agree probably with the previous statement

There may be no exact cutoff point, but it's hard to deny that at least in the last decade he's declined dramatically.

I dunno, I thought getting Him Out Of American Pie to play the role that *he* would usually have was an interesting move: a) putting forth the idea that his neuroses, the archetype that he's been playing for centuries, is something timeless and not particular to his generation or himself; b) freeing himself up to just become Crazy Old Guy, which he seemed to enjoy tremendously.

Not to say that it was a particuarly great movie, or anything.

Here's the real challenge -- sit down and watch Interiors, September and Another Woman all in a row.

...then line up shadows and fog and celebrity.

where is everyone?

not that i've seen any of them.

Never stopped him before!! I just dig that for the first time (or well, to the best of my knowedlege, anyway) Allen plays someone whose neurosis results in disaster exclusively for *others*, not him.

Also, not yet mentioned is Small Time Crooks, which was very much an above average comedy, I thought. And one where he played out of character, somewhat.

sorry abt the bergman comment, i misread dan's post.

"Everyone Says I Love You" from 1996 I found a very tepid sort of film; 'classic Allen'-lite with some rather poor singing of the songs by the cast. The only later one I've seen than that is "Deconstructing Harry" (1998), and while not quite top-notch Allen, I loved it; it was fully in his most agreeable vein.

I sense (admittedly without seeing them, but they're barely distributed in the UK...) that since he's hit 65 in 2000, the films have been generally less substantial (nothing of the feeling and depth of "Crimes...", "Hannah" or "Husbands and Wives") and are along the lines of "Everyone Says...", i.e. diminishing returns on his 70s style. "Mighty Aphrodite" possibly showed the better side of this; light, insubstantial and an enjoyable enough canter, but certainly a step down from the tragi-comic stuff or "Bullets".

Favourite Allens overall:
No Ned, you aren't alone in loving "Love and Death"; it's my favourite of his purely enjoyable, 'early funny films'. A much richer and funnier film than "Sleeper" or "Bananas", though I admit a soft spot for "Take the Money and Run", which was the first Allen I ever saw, by chance on TV one night in about 1998...
"Annie Hall" cannot be denied, as can't the serious-funny triumverate I mention above.

Strangely I wasn't overly taken with "Manhattan" in comparison to all of these, but then I've only seen it the once.

"Stardust Memories" I have very mixed views on; in some ways, brilliant, others hmmm... It's much closer to "Manhattan" as a film than it's taken for, actually, I do think. He is very much baring his soul in these two, particularly.

I have high hopes of these that I've yet to see: "Radio Days", "Sweet and Lowdown", "Zelig", "Purple Rose of Cairo"...

I remember the first time I saw Annie Hall. Opening/closing/no sound.

It's brilliant -- 'Annie Hall' recycles loads of it n'all. Some of it is legendary -- the KKK incident, for example.

His comedy writing is pretty good, too. Some of the more surreal pieces read better if you've seen his standup, others (like Death Knocks, yay) are just very simple and funny.

It was the first time I'd seen Natasha Lyonne, I think! Was it her film debut?

I like using Soon-Yi as a marker of his turn to shittitude, because I doubt he would have otherwise assumed women like Elisabeth Shue, Julia Roberts, Helena Bonham Carter and Mira Sorvino could find him arousing.

and the joke was on them, because the club was restricted!

"Annie Hall," one of the most beloved of American romantic comedies, was originally shot as a murder mystery. In the editing room, Woody Allen decided to drop the murder and concentrate on the romance between his character and Diane Keaton's.

???!!!! this is like learning the threestooges were originally slated to play the main roles in Casablanca

er, is that still the case? Didn't he have a falling out with his long-time producers a few years ago and is still dealing with lawsuits? I thought it was harder for him to make films now...

I believe that Manhattan Murder Mystery picked up that original plot. (It's Diane Keaton's first major role for Woody since Manhattan.)

The problem is comedic auteurs didn't usta get to keep making films in their 70s (well, Chaplin, and look how those last couple turned out).

(ha ha. i was trying to post at the same time.)

Sweet and Lowdown is just awful. The reliance on that terrible Djanho Reinhardt joke that isn't funny once (let alone four or five times.)

I think it's his last unequivocally great movie.

I also will defend Anything Else as it's sorta weirdly brilliant despite the horrible Biggs casting. Ricci plays his best female character since the Farrow days.

xpost, robyn OTM

"Oh and I loved the character of the mother....just a boozy old flirt with a filthy mouth!"

I'm a big fan who doesn't have a lot of deep knowledge of his ouvre--I'm not very well versed in movies, period. I do regret being unclear upthread--I liked the idea of the Bowie comparison a lot but in retrospect think it's not that accurate, since my favorite Allen movie is easily Radio Days, though that's as much because when I saw it on cable it was at the same time I was really into comics and old time radio. Though when I saw it again a couple years ago it stilled looked great, so who knows.

I saw Match Point and left it feeling mixed. Seemed really sharply made but sort of diseased at the center. Lots of well-regarded movies strike me that way, though, which is probably why I'm not that big a movie buff.

Oh, Morbs.

Zelig is about an hour too long.

Deconstructing Harry is his last great movie.

That's really interesting. Could you elaborate?

I guess I have to see Match Point, huh? I've been burned so many times before, though!

(I'll admit that the film's major flaw is that Billy Crystal is in it)

Deconstructing Harry is another diseased at the center one, though.

But in an honest way, a la Philip Roth. I found Match Point's lazy template of upward mobility much less entertaining than Zelig's.

"filmmakers are crap human beings, and so are musicians but at least the latter make me dance,"

I guess this might be why some of us who don't dance prefer filmmakers. Also, Woody violently disagrees with the interp that his protagonists are "him," which has been used as a cudgel by his haters since Interiors.

Some critic pointed out that his worst pretensions mostly evaporate in the films that acknowledge, celebrate and deride his working-class roots: Annie Hall, Broadway Danny Rose, Purple Rose of Cairo, Radio Days.

My favorite line in one of his more forgettable recent films is in Manhattan Murder Mystery or whatever it was called, when they go to give a gift to the old woman and Keaton exlaims "she's dead!" and woody quickly says "try giving her the gift."

that cracked me up.

Annie Hall, Broadway Danny Rose, Purple Rose of Cairo, Radio Days are all great movies.

One thing I admire about him that morbs alluded to (ie, comics making movies into their 70s) is the guy's work ethic. Rain or shine he puts out 1-2 movies a year, always with interesting casts, with occasional dabbling in genres (musicals, sci-fi, noir - he should make a western...) - I respect that a lot, I know I'll miss him when he stops. And he's left behind quite an extensive body of work.

Husbands & Wives
The Purple Rose of Cairo
Sleeper
Annie Hall
Manhattan Murder Mystery
Love & Death
Crimes & Misdemeanors
Sweet & Lowdown
Deconstructing Harry
Radio Days

What Anthony needs to do is watch Interiors and September back to back.

I think I'm gonna try and watch all his movies in the next few months, but from latest to first, rather than start with the films I already know by heart.

Sleeper's probably one of my favorites.

HAW has the best two seriocomic performances in Woody's oeuvre: Sydney Pollack's clueless narcissist, Judy Davis' hypersmart neurotic (for many years I was in love with this character); and a smaller good one by Juliette Lewis.

Zwan, yr friends probably wouldn't have liked L&D's primary inspiration then -- not Tolstoy and Eisenstein, but the peak Bob Hope movies of the late '40s.

Allen's always been very vocal about his debt to Bob Hope.

"Thanks. I practice a lot when I'm alone."

(The sign of a great comedian is the lines are only funny when he says them.)

agreed.

(L&D one of the few movies where Woody gives someone else [Keaton] some of the best punchlines? And they deliver them perfectly?)

coming back to this late: I never said his protagonists are "him." I said that the basic idea behind Match Point--basically, that charm allows you to get away with murder--was sort of obvious and sour; I felt like the audience was supposed to be impressed by how jaundiced it was, which isn't something I have much patience for in any area. that's a problem with the writer/director, not with the protagonist.

Man I love that woman.

-----------------------------------------------

now there's a phrase that doesn't compute.

The Woody/protagonist thing was prompted by different posts than yours, Matos. I found MP obvious too.

I don't think this is the basic idea - its as much luck that gets him off as his charm. The underlying message, as has been pointed out by many, is similar to Crimes and Misdemeanors' "there is no justice/the world is arbitrary" motif.

which is even more obvious and sour and patting-itself-on-the-back jaundiced, and just bolsters my point.

(OTM abt Alda btw - the classic "if it bends its funny, if it breaks..." bit)

(is Alda supposed to be Mel Brooks? Neil Simon? Or is it projected self-loathing?)

I know that ScarJo is capable of acting. Just not in Scoop.

The whole point!

Bob Hope coasted on his for at least 40 years after he lost it, Woody only for (roughly) a decade. Plus he's essentially been exiled to the UK, what more do you want??

Anyway I think I will catch Crimes & Misdemeanors at MoMA's Sven Nykvist tributes.

weird people spotted in bit parts in Woody Allen films:

Zach Braff
Aida Turturro
Jerry Adler (okay this was a genuine leading role)
Sigourney Weaver (? apparently? I sure as shit couldn't identify her from that shot in Annie Hall)

Sylvester Stallone

Tony Sirico!

Larry David

I only like the new woody allen films because I only saw one old film, Annie Hall, and I hated it

a non-bald Paul Giammatti

I must say, the trailer for Cassandra's Dream was fucking sharp.

HAHA xpost! omg, that trailer is horrifying

"FAMILY IS FAMILY and BLOOD IS BLOOD"

His ending up as king of bad British thrillers is a huge WTF

Didn't say it was good – it looked expensive! And shots of Ewan McGregor's tummy.

when he can make Ewen and Colin sound like they're playing Woody in a Mean Streets skit, that's somethin'

I had no idea it was a Woody Allen film until his name appeared onscreen.

I'll see it.

I'm still sort of taken aback by Matos' comment upthread about why he's not not a film buff. It only just occurred to me how rare it is these days to come across someone who will admit to being a fan of one and not a particular enthusiast of the other.

There are differences between being a fan and a buff.

I still haven't seen Match Point. I hear wildly contradictory things about it.

also I recently rewatched everyone says I love you and I loved it! I don't care what any of you smart people say!

edward norton gives my favorite ever non-woody allen woody allen performance!

I like Everyone Says I Love You, esp the bit where Norton trips up during his big funeral-home musical number

I hope the film of Cassandra's Dream drops the font of its trailer (Myriad, I think, which looks cheap and superficial: Apple uses it) and goes back to his usual font.

yeah EVERYONE SAYS I LOVE YOU roxx.

Tony Sirico shows up in that one too... the casting overlap between Sopranos and Allen's 90s films amuses me

Sharon Stone cameo in Stardust Memories!

Lewis Black in Hannah and Her Sisters

Not crap yet.

I saw that and did lol on several occasions but then was overwhelmed by all that obvious wish fulfilment stuff with the ladiez. Let it lie Woody.

"Have no idea for Barcelona unless the story of the two Hackensack Jews who start a mail-order embalming firm.'

shame he ditched the idea.

Lewis Black in Hannah and Her Sisters

and juliet louis-dreyfus and john turturro!

shadows and fog is where i pretty much said "fuck you, woody" what a pointless, dull piece of shit. i was lured into husbands and wives because of the whole mia/soon-yi meltdown, and that film had its moments but not enough to get me interested again

Husband & Wives is perhaps my fave movie by him! So funny how answers can differ for this question... i hate recent stuff like Match Point though. Mighty Aphrodite might be the point where it all started to fall apart ..

the Spanish diary thing was awesome, beat the movie with great ease.
I loved Shadows and Fog, magical movie. I think Woody is one of the few true victims of the Millennium Bug. He hasn't made a truely good movie in this century.

cast of his next film ("serious comedy"):

Josh Brolin, Nicole Kidman, Anthony Hopkins, Freida Pinto, Naomi Watts and Antonio Banderas

these days his casts don't matter as much as the script. Barcelona movie was crap.