Oxbridge: Classic Or Dud?

I think that provides an answer.

Anyway, I went to a state comprehensive school and was very lucky indeed to get into Oxford. As such, I think it's classic. It was elitist, but only in terms of intellectual elite, and whilst I often felt out of my depth as a result, it was a wonderfully challenging experience. Sadly, there are quite a few colleges where I worry that money and connections get you further than academic achievement.

The teaching was variable. The tutorial system (two students with one tutor) was amazing when it worked properly, and shameful when it didn't. There were occasions when I had some of the most incredible discussions of jurisprudence with top legal minds during these things, and other times it was just an embarrassing battle of wits where I inevitably lost.

But, I'm glad I went to Oxford, and it was an experience. I don't think it's any better than any other university, to be honest, and I worry some of its traditions not exist just to attract tourists, but there you go.

The (literally) cloistered air of an Oxofrd college does in the end lead to certain bonds of strangeness being thrown up. Most of my good friends from Oxford I wasn't very close to at the time but I think the cronyism comes pretty much from a shared strangeness. In the end it suits certain personality types. Big fish in a small pond....

A place like SOAS is supposedly more inclusive and diverse, but actually looking at political and general opinions here I am not convinced that that is the case.

The Oxbridge mafia was very prevalent amongst the teaching staff at my local comprehensive. The English department especially leaned on me very heavily to apply for either Oxford or Cambridge, but I was having none of it. I already had my heart set on Warwick - it remains amongst the best universities for law, and I was very impressed with the pioneering methods of teaching there.

Due to my snubbing of the Oxbridge system, my tutors decided to lower my predicted grades to B for English, C for Economics and E for History. This was in spite of the fact that I had never got lower than A, B, B in these subjects, and in fact had finished top overall in English that year.

It turned out that any pupil who applied for either Oxbridge or Cambridge was automatically predicted straight A's in their finals, regardless of their past academic record.

I thought this system stank to high heaven at the time, and I still think it stinks now.

Everything turned out for the best though. I got my A and 2 B's as I expected, went to Warwick and never looked back. I still regard Oxbridge with contempt though.

thanks, Chrissy, i live in the "real world" and i *do* care what people think. when i say "Cambridge" and toff-assumptions are made it pisses me right off. i went to a state school and actually chose the college i did because it was the first women's college in the UK and has a history of non-discrimination in terms not only of sex but background, as well as a fairly good academic record. while i was there i met all kinds of people from every part of the UK and beyond, it was great and i will defend it to the hilt.

Then again, the House of Lords, another archaic and outdated institution, can hardly be considered meritocratic (or democratic) yet it contains more than its fair share of enlightened individuals.

I think I'm probably saying Use Other Politico-Cultural Analyses please, cuz this one just obscures far more than it clarifies. At New College in the 70s I got a good basis in the philosophy of scientific and mathematical logics, from a plump communist who wore no shoes during tutorials. I haf v.occasional linXoR to exactly three chum-cronies: one is essex working-class, moved to Australia then Hong Kong and makes a good living in computers; two went into VSO and currently does relief work in Romania; three = recent possibly current Brit Ambassador to Cambodia (and is smartest person i haf evah met tho rubbish taste in pop).

This has helped exactly zero in the rock-write dodge, esp.as I have almost nevah talked abt it as it bears no relevance. I learnt to write at NME.

You mean even if the Oxbridge admissions procedure were to magically deal with all previous disadvantage and truly represent the cream of the intellectual crop? Interesting question. I dunno. My gut reaction would be 'no'.

Well, I was actually referring to the system with the current admissions procedure, but your question is more interesting. I think my gut reaction would still be 'yes' though. Just fixing the admissions procedure isn't going to change the problem that having all your top legal brains trained in two rather conservative institutions with very similar outlooks might well lead to a worrying conformity of thought in the profession.

of course there were also ultra-conservative tory foxhunting bastards there as well, but for the most part they stayed away from Girton.

On reflection, I think the conservatism or not of the institutions is a bit of a red herring. Their similarity and the fact there is only two of them is much more important.

Jonny B was drying his hair. but it's a nice example of the divergent personalities we had there.

I seem to recall he did rather well until he got banned from the student union for taking poppers on stage during his campaign speech.

That said, towards the end of my degree it started to get a bit... weird. Being left-wing and liberal became the new conservatism, if you like, and it got to the point that political correctness went totally overboard. In fact, if RickyT was there 1999-2000, and I graduated in 1998, then he probably saw the progression of this. It was still a good place to be though, and I wouldn't be who I am now if it wasn't for the place. I certainly wouldn't be as confident, since I think that's what I learned the most from Oxford.

And yes, there were a lot of toffs. But I wasn't a toff, and I got the opportunity to prove I'm just as good as them without going to public (private, for those from the US amongst us) school. Which was ace.

Oh, and Strange Fruit started in Oxford, in case you're wondering. At a seedy little bar called YesBut. The meetings of people to set it up all took place in The Grapes. Sigh, those were the days.

I did sing in King's chapel once. that was nice. plus King's Events were top notch when i was there. tho having said that all i can remember now is seeing the men they couldn't hang.

It was Peterhouse outshone all the other colleges in right-wing obnoxiousness stakes though. Amongst various other crimes it was the place responsible for moving Portillo all the way across the politcal spectrum. The most extreme example was the society whose sole purpose was to parade around the grounds wearing black armbands on the anniversary of the vote that let women into the college. They've been existence since women were first let in. Which was all of thirteen years ago.

I also knew two sisters, both rich, called Alpha and Beta. Alpha was in the rowing team and would drive to the river (a five minute walk) in her BMW. What she was doing at Wadham I'll never know. Slumming it, I guess.

I'm honestly amazed how many people I know who went to Oxford or Cambridge, who I didn't know when I was there.

Some of The Poppyheads were at caius in the year above me i think. i were a sarah nut in those days and was stunned when someone pointed one of them out to me!

Sarah is right though, for a lot of us it looks like there is a kind of Oxbridge dillema, we disagree with the privilge aspect of it but man alive we were fucking smart to get there and worked out bollocks off so don't we deserve grace and favour? Do we? Hmm not sure.

I mean, I'm still friends with a fair few people from university but none of them seem to be important people. Well, obviously they're important to me, but you know what I mean.

The networking thing was amazing though, and it made me sick. Dinner with prospective employees, jokes about games on the quad in summertime in interviews, it was all a bit surreal. But then, on the other side, I once got told in an interview that I wasn't welcome at the firm because I went to Oxford and was a snob. So you can't win, really.

legwarmers would have been ACE on my 6 miles a day of cycle ride though. that bitter Cambridge wind goes right through you.

(holds breath and waits for chorus of "oooh!" accompanied by handbag gestures) "cambridge".

Anyway, don't students in Scotland (at some of the unis anyway) get an MA for having done a 4 year degree?

I've nothing against it, it was never on the agenda for me! I went to Kent for 3 weeks, then good old TVU and then North London.

Anyway, I'd say that an Oxford or Cambridge degree was probably worth an MA. The sheer volume of work (2-3 essays a week, doing Law), and the immense pressure (6 essays over each vacation, exams every term) were something that drove an alarming number of students away, insane, or worse. Parts of my degree were very much an ordeal, but the most horrifying aspect of all was being examined on all eight subjects studied over the better part of two and a half years, in less than a week. Shudder.

I'd say an ability to work at a high level of productivity is the main trait of most of the people I know who went to the American universities I mentioned, and not any remarkable intellectual ability. The admission system is predicated on selecting a lot of super-achievers to round out the hodgepodge of rich kids and legacies that have to be admitted. The value of hiring based on "connections" seems reasonable only if you grant that someone with a degree from ____ is willing to probably work quite a bit harder than most other people. Sadly that seems to be largely true: people I know from Harvard/Yale/Princeton are awfully good at getting stuff done, but I'm sure quite a bit of it has to do with the old "our kind of people" sentiment, even if it no longer generally involves srunames and gentiles and the right clubs.

I'm 3rd or possibly even more generation Oxbridge and the old-school- tie thing hasn't worked for me either. Basically if you want it to work for you it will work for you but you have to put in the hours schmoozing and you also have to be a bit of an arse.

i took the opportunity for the mini reunion, but couldn't bring myself to go through the bizzarro ceremony. my how people had grown in just 10 terms (or whatever the hell it is). by "grown" i mean just sideways :-)

What are the "elite" schools in the US? I thought I knew when I went off to college, but subsequent discussions with classmates and coworkers has left me wondering if the list I came up with wasn't self-serving and delusional.

the only well-off forebear i have = mum's father who went to leeds university for a very sensible career-ensuring degree in engineering and made plastic for ici and thus only just escaped getting into gravity's rainbow heh

all the daft posh stuff = really quite easy to avoid: my mum is sad i didn't have a more fun time as she enjoyed her salad days, but i just worked and smouldered bleakly in my locked-in punXoR soul, willing on the nuclear winter we were so casually promised

The funny thing is, being a lawyer now, I get to talk to loads of law students from other universities. I discovered Bristol required 2 essays a term of 2,000 words each and nearly died. I had to do two 3,000 word essays a week!!! Think of the MA as an award for the extra work, and try and overlook the fact that everyone thinks it's a big joke.

We're all going to get our MA next year + get very drunk down cheapest student bar in the town. And then bemoan how the kids of today are not keeping the revolutionary spirit alive and don't sing sexist songs along to the juker.

MA (mine anyway) not about quantity of work but higher standards of insight, analysis etc.

still stands. Higher degrees shouldn't be awarded for merely doing more work. I would argue that the sheer volume of work at Oxbridge in some subjects is often counterproductive as far as imporving the levels of insight, analysis etc. that a student is capable of. Sure, they will almost certainly know more stuff, but the whether they have any deeper understanding of it is highly debatable. Too much work leaves very little time to reflect or think deeply about the topic in hand, the student having to concentrate on the production of more and more essays.

Interestingly Ricky I think this kind of criticism was what they started considering when - just after my time - they started to offer 3/4 year splits on certain degrees. You could do a Maths degree in 3 years, but equally you had the opportunity for more free research if you did the 4 year syllabus. Not sure if that confirred a different degree title at the end - gut feeling was it didn't (younger Oxbridge whippersnappers could probably say).

I haven't sent off the coupon and cheque to claim my free MA yet as it would merely exacerbate the gulf between my lofty brain and my lowly employment.

Then there are smaller, really good places like Sarah Lawrence (where I went), Carleton, Bard, Bennington, Reed, Macalester, Hampshire, Oberlin etc. which are muy pricey but small and attentive. I had a high class rank in a competitive, intellectually respected state high school and NO MONEY so I got in everywhere I was accepted and had schools offering me computers to attend. I wanted to go East, and I wanted a career as a writer so networking was something I considered and would have been STUPID not to. Sarah Lawrence is pretty reknowned for its combination of rich and arty graduates who go on to edit magazines ie. Interview, French Vogue or work in the arts. If you meet an alum and they like you, they'll mentor you if they can. A lot of the time the networking is scholarship kids of the ages helping each other out, possibly due to empathy. I help all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons so I see nothing wrong with it.

SLC is based on the Oxford system (you have a don, you attend tutorials with no more than 15 people weekly plus you have individual sessions with each subject tutor at least once every two weeks) and has an exchange with Wadham College at Oxford. It's as hard as you want tit to be; some people really drive themselves to do academic research and others totally slack off. I didn't really want to go to grad school so I'm somewhere in the middle of those two poles.

Something I've noticed with Oxbridge males from lower-middle-class backgrounds like mine: they're after posh totty, and the women throw themselves at the talented, cute ones with the good record collections. They are then slightly mercernary and misogynistic because many of these women are not as bright as they are, though personable enough. So you get all these boys marrying rich debs and suddenly coming up with the goods (like, a novel that becomes a bestseller) when they're 30. Faculty brats do this too.

Aha! Final confirmation that I am neither cute nor talented, for I have never had any posh totty throw themselves at me despite my wonderful record collection.

I had a great record collection, yet posh totty steered well clear.

these waterheads need to read up a little on william empson and *his* attendance record.

Which makes me fume even more at both Oxbridge and the media in general. *fumes*

If you attend a certain college during your undergraduate years, do you always remain in that college if you do an undergraduate degree?

(This is for work.)

you might get farmed out and have tutorials with tutors in other colleges some terms. but you stay 'in' the college till death.

unless you mean 'postgraduate degree' at the end there.

Whoops, yeah, I meant postgraduate degree.

You can, but some people take the opportunity to change. I stayed where I was.

Most common reason for changing is to go to one of graduate-only colleges, which obviously have a different atmosphere.

what he said.

Gotcha, thanks.

I would just like to point out how little anyone in the real world cares about this question.

I think that provides an answer.

-- chrissy, Thursday, 8 November 2001 01:00 (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

ZING CULTURE

chiz chiz

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/7111933.stm

D: the oxford union. this is a smart tory PR stunt, but what kind of douche is a member in the first place?

S*mon D*rby, B*P spokesman

^^^interviewed this guy before, unsurprisingly he's a douche

D: the oxford union. this is a smart tory PR stunt, but what kind of douche is a member in the first place?

Me : (

faced

Haven't been since 2003 though. Its cellar bar went through a five-year spell of being the default post-pub drinking spot for undergrads, so you pretty much had to join back in 1999. Late opening pubs have changed that.

so you pretty much had to join back in 1999

aw hells no!

A-hur.

i'm guessing you guys never met or anything?

itisamystery

caek: northern, state/grammar school (presumably), scientist, postgrad/supervisor, ilx lurker, blades fan, referee
i: southern pansy, public school nob, arts wanker, undergrad tit, ilx blurter, addicks plonker, whiny footballer

never stood a chance...

Worst Fall song ever.

caek: northern, state/grammar school (presumably), scientist, postgrad/supervisor, ilx lurker, blades fan, referee

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/82/07/22850782.jpg

I happen to be comprehensive educated, yeah, but I like to think the chip on my shoulder is anti-rower rather than anti-privately-educated. The state school rowers are easily the worst Oxbridge has to offer.

dude i absolutely loathe rowers too, with a bright and burning passion. they take up something they aren't even very good at (often because they can't play other sports, often because it's the 'traditional' thing to do at one of these ancient establishments, often because their mates (who they've known for 2 weeks) are doing it), they devote their entire fucking existences to it, they talk about nothing else, they rarely hang out with non-rowers, they don't realise how piss-boring it is/they are, they get all political about positions within the Boat Club, they think it really matters, they have no fucking perspective.

I would leave it at "they are cunts", but yeah ; )

hurrah, some common ground at last! i was gonna say "both our teams were relegated from the premiership last season" but it still stings, man.

i bet you REALLY hated the student newspapers, actually, which would also put you in the same camp as me. you think my ilx postings are bad, you should check out some of the guff these idiots come out with. specious, prissy, self-inflated nonsense. there was one guy this week defending 'popular culture' from the cambridge undergrads' scorn, as if we're all kierkegaard-bashing nonces with no desire to watch sitcoms or listen to contemporary music. what a fucking prick.

If by "I bet you hate them" you mean, "I bet you wrote for them and hate yourself" then OTM.

nrq, where were you at and when?

my dad was a rower you fascist fucks.

i was there 98-01, w4dham

^^^the gay college!

(thus spake the Petrean)

I was on the Brasenose "third eight" so it doesn't count, really

In my bitter little world, visiting students and graduates are allowed to row, so you're fine.

funnily enough, i don't really have a problem with rowers who are also internationally-renowned electronic musicians, it's the ones who do tit-all else with their time (i.e. most of the others) that piss me off...

I just did it to be near the hotties, honestly

sweat, muscle and 'bumps'. must have been good fun!

i mean, if being surrounded by hot members of my preferred gender in a physical-activity bonding session constituted my university life, i wouldn't complain. maybe i should try and join the cheerleaders society.

Stop it.

closet case rowers who come out as soon as they get their city jobs as brokers = dud

dom has a valid grievance with oxbridge: his profession, the media, is run predominantly by public-school educated oxbridge english (or other arts) graduates with their snooty, exclusive agendas, their cultural ignorance, their disdain of the working-classes, their fat paychecks, and their sense of entitlement. i mean, i'd call that a dud if i wasn't PART OF THE MACHINE. worse than an oxbridge wanker: a hypocritical oxbridge wanker!

never stood a chance...

one thing i'd like to make abundantly clear (nice media-twat phrase there) before going to bed: were i to become a magazine/newspaper editor or whatever (assuming i'm employed in the first place what with lj.ytmnd still knocking around), writers like dom would be the first people i'd look to employ. too many people are megalomaniacs who want sheep to tow the party line for them. i'd want good, entertaining writing with a streak of mischief. actually, the idea of me as dom's boss is hilarious enough.

closet case rowers who come out as soon as they get their city jobs as brokers = dud

Oh man. Unbelievably OTM.

The convicted holocaust denier David Irving is refusing to pull out of tonight's debate on free speech at the Oxford Union, amid fears of widespread unrest in the city.

This better be worth it.

"Fears of widespread unrest in the city" lol.

How is George St these days

On a Friday night? Like the End Times.

This debate is going to be so shit. The idea that neo-Nazi counter-demonstrators are expected is clearly Union press office bullshit.

I went past the Union on my way home. There were maybe 100 ANL/OUSU protesters opposing the debate/David Irving/the war in Afghanistan, etc. About 50 police and three (3) guys with shaved heads in bomber jackets walking away from the area when asked by police. Fucking hardcore.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/7113984.stm

Yay, publicity for fascists. We're a bright bunch, oh yes.

A debate at the Oxford Union has been postponed after protesters forced their way into the building.

BNP leader Nick Griffin and controversial historian David Irving were due to speak about free speech.

Thirty protesters pushed their way into the hall to stage a sit-down protest at the debating table.

Earlier, 500 people staged a sit-down protest outside the gates of the building, preventing around half the students due to attend from getting in.

Anti-racism campaigners said the two men should not be given a platform to speak at the debate in St Michael's Street, Oxford.

Protesters chanted anti-fascist slogans and jeered "shame on you".

The students broke through a security cordon into the building where the debate, scheduled to start at 2030 GMT was delayed.

Union security officers said the protesters got into the building by jumping over the wall while others created a diversion by gathering and crushing at the front gate.

'Deeply dangerous'

Martin Mcluskey, from the Oxford University Students' Union, said: "What we are doing here tonight at the Oxford Union is putting them on a platform that will give them legitimacy and credibility."

"It is as if we are saying that we agree with what they are saying and that we think it is valid."

Novelist Anne Atkins, who is participating in the debate, said controversial views should not be silenced but exposed.

"When you say that the majority view is always right I think that is a deeply dangerous and disturbing thing to say.

Denial convictions

"I am not for a moment saying that I agree with David Irving or Nick Griffin but I am saying that once you start having truth by democracy you risk silencing some of the most important prophets we have ever had."

Mr Griffin and Mr Irving arrived about four hours before the start of the debate and were escorted into the building.

MP Dr Julian Lewis has also resigned his membership of the Oxford debating union in protest describing the two men as "a couple of scoundrels" in his resignation letter.

Mr Griffin has repeatedly insisted the BNP is not a racist group.
http://www.sokwanele.com/images/general/flyingpigs.jpg

He was convicted in 1998 for incitement to racial hatred for material denying the Holocaust.

Mr Irving was imprisoned for three years after pleading guilty to Holocaust denial in Austria.

[bangs head off brick wall, for ever]

oh, and louis: i was editor of the edinburgh university student newspaper, and my oldest friend was keble's captain of boats in 1995 (i think). if you ever come to glasgow (which, in fairness, you should) i'm sure we'll be able to have some very interesting discussions ;)

(especially because i fundamentally agree that student journalism is one of the worst things ever, and really don't get fucking rowing at all.)

Apparently it has started late. Hopefully that will be the end of it.

I'd come to Glasgow with pleasure. My only previous visit was a stop-off en route to Inverness. One of my dreams is to bump into Mogwai in a pub and tell them that they need to fucking chill out. :D

Re: this whole debate business, I hope they get a good grilling. I fear they won't.

The debate, like all Oxford Union debates, will lower the collective wisdom of humanity. Difference being, this one is getting international news coverage.

Not good PR for Oxford university.

You know who's had a REAL PR nightmare, though? http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=0Z7&q=peterhouse+may+ball+cancelled&btnG=Search&meta=

yo FUCK the boat race: it's an all-ringer contest this year. as with university challenge, it should be an all u/g thang.

ox ftw

dunno what it's like in london but it's pretty filthy here in oxford. sinking?

paddy power offering 12/1 for a sinking

dunno either holmes im in cambridge, but yeah the forecast was poor.

god's way of telling 'em to stop hiring thirty-something yanks.

jimmy mcnutty knows what i'm talking about

http://www.timeout.com/film/img/dvd/55773/cover.w200.jpg

Bookmakers' odds of a sinking have shortened rapidly in the days leading up to the race, although it is 30 years since Cambridge were the last crew to sink mid-race.

ahaha it started raining in cambridge in the last 10 minutes. i think it's also lame that it's on so late in the afternoon. TURN OVER PLANK ITV.

lol at this bollocks about asterisks for 2007

lol at sheffield united being mentioned

lol at 800 years of class privilege

what time does it start?

i'm bored

5.15!

heck of a lot of pre-game.

for fucks sake. i thought you were going to sat 4.30

did you row?

heeeell no. dad coxed tho.

tho tbh i have that physique down, him not so much, even then.

this was a pre-ladies oxford

I am that awkward size too big to cox and too small to row

also i hate rowing and rowers, on the whole

yeah they're assholes

cf all sports dudes

guess what i wrote for student paper!!11!

not 'the student' tho, that's lame.

what did you write?

"ltj bukem more liek ltj RUBBISH'

^^ first printed review

"fight club more liek FUCCCK AWESOME"

haha in the cherwell?

you don't have to be posh, vw golf not posh lol

oxford cox looks about 12

yeah at the cherwell. running tings.

oxford cox looks about 12

-- caek, Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:34 PM (2 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

should do a gag here?

INCHES?!@@!?

this is actually pretty good pre-race telly

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51iBt98fWyL._SS500_.jpg

this is a pretty great film, btw

You dropped this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a5/Oxford_blues.jpg/200px-Oxford_blues.jpg

i smell ica mini-festival

http://www.cherwell.org/content/8474

fuck both those lame-ass colleges imo.

It's like the Bloods and Crips all over again.

*shakes head*

"Hundreds involved in Turl Street brawlflashmob"

whoah, I love the idea of crowds of Exeter poshos chanting "Fuck Jesus", that is well punk innit?

*sorrowfully shakes head*

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/27084/oxford-student-i-didnt-mean-kill-jews

lol teddy hall i guess

lol teddy hall

with comments from retards: http://www.cherwell.org/content/9825

cherwell rss feed brightens by fridays, btw, you should subscribe

Mr Rashid said: “My version went: ‘Khaybar, O Jews, we will win’. This is in classical, Koranic Arabic and I doubt that apart from picking up on the word ‘Jew’, that even the Arabic speakers in the room would have understood the phrase.

Why didn't he shout "Ping wobple friddo"?

Then nobody would have understood him!

http://www.cherwell.org/blackcat/imagearchive/pdf_thumbs/8266pdffront.jpg

great paper, great uni

They were joined by members of Oxford Anti-War Action group.

oh hang on

great paper, great uni

it was better in the late 90s/early 00s iirc

http://www.cherwell.org/blackcat/imagearchive/3120newsbreak_resized.jpg

fun fact: i designed the current masthead (and by that i mean i told them what font i wanted and they fucked up spacing/alignment/kerning, etc.)

This is a goldmine of head-scratching. Currently stuck on applicant claiming to have 13 A Levels, college not feeling the need to check

(For non-Britishers, most students do 3 or 4, more than 5 is very unusual, and I've never heard of anyone with more than 7. So 13 seems like it should be in "wait, what?" territory for an admissions tutor.)

what in the world

never understood the 2 or 3 a-levels thing- i mean you have to do other subjects too presumably?

Nah, standard is 3 A-levels and that's all you study. There might be some key skills thrown in but I don't think so.

I don't get to work with the A Level kids much nowadays so don't quote me.

fuck's sake it's no wonder your empire is crumbling guys pick it up a notch

They're trying to introduce the Baccalaureat now yeah right like that'll take

The 'other subjects' are done previous to A-Levels.

now they have AS levels so it's more like you do (?) 4-5 in lower sixth, then go down to three in U6.

darragh -- wtf? well better to specialize and do three subjects well than re-run GCSEs, which is where stuff is headed if people end up doing multiple subjects.

I think there's probly a happy balance to be honest but even 5 ASs sounds unusual.

well yeah i didn't assume you started your education at A-levels guys, cmon.

we do 11 or so subjects up to 3rd year secondary education (to either Higher or Lower level in each) and then 'specialise' in 7 (maths, english and gaeilge lol mandatory) for matriculation

matriculation- leaving cert, and those 7 subjects also taken at higher or lower level.

moving on in my fascinating exposé-

you get points for each subject based on your final examination results, and your points total is you leaving cert result, which determines what college courses you'll get into.

there's been some debate on whether the current A-level setup is too narrow but everybody in the UK knows that changing anything ever = dumbing down

darra what is your uni system, anything like scotland where they have four years (as opposed to england's three) and the first is like a catch-up for non A-levellers?

Plus moving to a system even slightly comparable to the baccalaureate = oh no, forrin, or something. (xp)

Out of completely off-topic interest, what kind of level does leaving cert Gaeilge take you to? Wondering if it's conversational, or if it's like A-Level French wd be here where you'd be expected to write essays in French abt French literature, or what.

(It is nice to know how much I'm being laughed at next time I'm staring at an Irish street name wondering which letters not to pronounce)

Our system is too broad, but tbh take out Irish and I'd say 5-6 subjects is a decent figure. The real problem is with the 'points' system of allocating college places.

ledge- no, nothing like that? Some degree courses are three years straight, some are four year courses with a diploma after 2, degree after 3 and hons degree after 4.

there's no real stage of specialisation, unless you want to count the two years of leaving cert with 'only' 7 subjects.

LC Irish is a political measure, hence having it as mandatory.

You can sit it at foundation level, where looking at your watch in response to the query 'Cén t-ám é?' will garner you full marks. But foundation won't get you into any colleges (and is only offered in the mandatory subjects iirc).

Pass/Lower Irish will allow you to pass an easy Irish exam.

Higher/Honours Irish will allow you to reproduce one of 6/7 essays to a grammatically acceptable standard, and to answer one of 6/7 standard questions in an oral exam.

To speak Irish fluently, you need to be upper middle class with parents kind of idealogically bent on it, or from one of the Gaeltachts in the West (poor areas in the main, benficiaries of a lot of tax-exemptions etc).

It sounds like doing French or similar, but it isn't- the work necessary to get a decent grade in Honours is brutal, and I dropped it to concentrate on other subjects.

And after 5 years of French, 12 years ago, I'm still able to get by in France if I need to. Don't have anything more than very basic Irish, and most of that I've re-learned from a radio sketch show that riffs on the language some of the time (performer is progeny of one of the upper middle class families mentioned above, go figure)

eh sorry kind of went off there

yeah i mean this is fascinating but zzzzzzzzzzzzz no it isn't

Thank you darragh. Yeah, I gathered it wd be somewhat political down south, asked partly out of interest regarding recent politicking over (currently remote iirc) possibility of Irish Language Act in NI

(my other half's mother, language teacher, reportedly had a ROMANS GO HOME moment spotting some Belfast youths spraying a mural with attempted Irish slogans)

that can't be right? anglo saxons go home surely

how hard are A-levels in general? trying to get a feeling since I'm teaching kids here in HK who have mostly failed one or more A-levels

they're easy; obviously you're a terrible teacher.

naw joeks

they'd better be tough if you only have to do three of the things

you often have to do "general studies" as a "fourth"

or did when i was a lad

people also tell me that the HK a-levels are harder than UK a-levels, because they want to limit the number of kids who get the chance to go to uni... iono

iirc UK a-levels are marked on a quota system or something so... yeah maybe.

that could be bollocks

this a level fraud student thing sounds like a flashback explaining how mr ripley got like he was

xp up until the 80s there was a quota for each grade, now they set a grade boundary and (generally) stick to it. not sure which is "fairer". (partly explains the grade inflation - in mid-80s it was impossible for the numbers getting a-grades to go up.)

part time job of this kid: http://www.cherwell.org/content/9756

Youth in Revolt is an obsessive tale of young love, its roots echoing as far back as Homer's Odyssey.

the tale is obsessive? the roots echo? a michael cera comedy about losing yer virginity is actually a retelling of the odyssey?

hahaha, i'm sure a young you is working on index for the screenplay right now

index cards

good to see oxford students tackling the thorny subject of class in vampire weekend songs in the music section.

o boy

(^ webmailed you btw in case you don't normally check that mail)

How hard A Levels are is kind of hard to answer seeing as I haven't done any other exam system to compare it to (can't really think of a non-comparative answer) but also because some subjects are apparently much harder than others

e.g. if you look at the overall pass rate / rate of highest grade there are a hell of a lot more handed out in, say, media studies than maths or physics, but also if you compare candidates' A-Level grade against their GCSE (exam taken two years earlier) grade in the same subject, an A-at-GCSE maths student is only 20% likely to get an A at A-Level, whereas for some subjects it's 3 or 4 times that

PS these figures are made up but I have seen graphs of the wild discrepancy

gordon brown doesn't care about maths people

(I have no hobbyhorse for maths, probably the same is true for other subjects, but my mother is a maths teacher, so this story comes to you through a maths-shaped prism)

gailge shaped prism much more interesting imo

afaik, no one in university admissions has any doubt whatsoever that a levels have got significantly easier

good friend of mine in UCD CS dept says that degrees are getting easier

but when you insist that university attendance goes from whatever % in the 60's/70's to whatever the targets are today.....?

yes, that is also true

you can see it on the timescale of my uni career. like ~2002 when i did finals i was practicing with ~10 yr old past papers, which were noticeably harder than those i ended up sitting, and now i teach what is in principle the same course 8 years later it's easier still. fraction of 1sts much higher than it was

i tell my students this: practice the old papers. it's like practicing at altitude and then coming down to sea level for the big race.

teach them harder and stop displacing yr responsibilities imo

that said my english teacher routinely just marked stuff down by 20% for precisely this reason.

it's true that you've got to have wider grade boundaries to accommodate the fact that most people are studying a-levels now, whereas earlier it was a fraction of the brightest - and many of them failed. it's not necessarily a virtue to have the hardest exams in the world if no one passes. but otoh, there's stuff that was degree level in the 60s which is now on maths a level papers, according to at least one vice-chancellor.

yeah I always like teachers who grade you hard at the beginning so that you'll ~take it to the limit, one more time~

xp re exams that no-one passes-by the same token, there's not much point aiming exams with the aim of having a certain % pass in mind. Ideally, setting the exams to the standard required and seeing how that works is better than either approach- my friend wouldn't agree that this is what's happening over here at least.

the two questions are related, though: unless you want the pointlessly elite a-level system of the 1950s, you've got to set the fixed standards with some reference to what kids are likely to be able to do. that is what's happening in the uk, but very imperfectly of course. (i can't even imagine what perfection would be in this case: you can't please everyone.)

i don't really have a problem with a higher level education system being elitist, as long as it's elitist along the right lines (ability to perform at a high level acedemically).

but maybe at this stage that's where '4th level' research, postgrads etc comes into play- today's equivalent of a university degree in the 70's/80's?

but otoh, there's stuff that was degree level in the 60s which is now on maths a level papers, according to at least one vice-chancellor.

http://www.wwu.edu/depts/tutorialcenter/images/calculator.gif

but otoh, there's stuff that was degree level in the 60s which is now on maths a level papers, according to at least one vice-chancellor.

this is true, but it's not _harder_ stuff, and way more stuff has been straight dropped from the syllabus.

science is a bit more complicated, because stuff has to be very well understood by scientists to be taught at A level. so it's understandable and not indicative of anything significant that, say, quantum mechanics wasn't on the a level syllabus 40 yrs ago.

grade inflation at universities is really pernicious because there are basically only three grades, and without the top one you are not internationally competitive if you want to do a phd, which is what, in principle, science departments (and others) are teaching toward. in a sense, it's surprising that it hasn't gone on more. it was like 10% got 1sts, it's now 20-30%, depending on subject.

grade inflation at a level is basically inexcusable.

although obv. grade inflation is not to be confused with syllabuses getting easier.

STUDENTS ARE GETTING SMARTER

tagline to a conspiracy/horror movie for mail readers

difference between grade inflation and easier syllabi = ?easier marking?

easier syllabus: student who gets an A knows less/demonstrates less aptitude

grade inflation: more students get an A

you can have grade inflation per se without an easier syllabus

one leads to the other surely?

(xp)

well if a student doesn't need to know as much to get an A then the set of students getting A's is gonna be greater, I mean

yes, but you can have grade inflation just from people deciding to mark generously when testing the same material

grade inflation without an easier syllabus is definitely down to easier marking though. right?

xp

which is _definitely_ going on -- impossible to prove, but my strong impression is that grades would have improved if they syllabuses hadn't changed and the students were equally smart

yes xp

so DM conspiracy theories correct then. am posting this thread to the editor as we speak.

DM = dark matter?

too much time on phd

darragh mac

re: grade inflation - that was my point about shifting from a quota in the 80s to criteria-based marking. it's probably right that the criteria have been eased since then as well, but it's not easy to say what the "ideal" level is. depends what you're trying to achieve with a-levels and there's no consensus.

i think i'm just more pleased that more people are taking a levels, passing them and going to university than i am concerned that the top grades are losing cachet. (though in theory it needn't be one or the other, in practice and for political reasons i guess it has tended to be.)

25+ per cent A grades is maaaaaaaaaaybe a little too much, i admit

yeah, to a certain extent it doesn't matter what label they assign to a certain level of performance, or how much detail they resolve grades in.

but there's a lot of moaning at the top, which i think is justified, that _every single applicant_ to oxbridge has 3+ As. like i interview ~20 candidates per year, and will see maybe 1 student with 1 grade other than an A at A level. which is not to say that a levels should be changed to make oxbridge admissions more straightforward.

didn't they introduce starred A levels a few years ago, so now you have kids with A* at A-level too?

i think so. i didn't do admissions last month, and i think they were the first year to be awarded them.

i heard nrq was one of these 500 people

http://www.yaledailynews.com/scene/scene-cover/2010/04/23/whats-better-oxfords-depth-or-yales-breadth/
“There is a group of 500 or so people who aren’t reliant on the college system for a network of friends,” Oxford student Paz Mendez Hodes said. “Oddly these ‘500’ exist because they have assembled themselves around the pre-existing networks from the private schools … Of the people in my phone book, I can count about three who went to state schools … I did not come here intending to mix only with those who went to schools similar to mine, but it appears that you end up in one group or the other.

"In fact, a third-year at St. John’s College, Oxford, who consented to be identified only as 'one who pursues the pleasures of text and flesh with equal zeal'"

thought LJ was cambridge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NyzQwwO4Os

tbh

eh tbh a lot of class mixing does happen at these schools. but yeah there's definitely a ton of upper class cliques too.

In fact, one Oxford tutor, or “don,” who asked to remain anonymous for fear of causing offence, went so far as to say the Rhodes Scholarship — which sends about 32 students from the United States to Oxford for graduate school each year — “has nothing to do with scholarship.”

this is pretty otm though - in terms of what you actually get the rhodes/marshall are just about the most overrated fellowships out there

there were four americans doing phds in astronomy while i was there. three were on rhodes scholarships. all of them seem v. smart, but the rhodes three all did ridiculous sports (fencing and alpine skiing iirc) at an elite level. i really don't get the point of people doing another undergrad degree with a rhodes, but i guess it makes sense given how you/that article say it's perceived.

iirc the rhodes were conceived of as a way to reward student athletes, i.e. one of the application requirements is that you play in a varsity sport or have demonstrated some sort of athletic enthusiasm during your time at school. all you get I think is one or two years of paid study at oxford (and if that's your goal, there are other ways of getting a free ride to oxford that aren't quite as conspicuous). somehow along the path of history the rhodes became synonymous with fuck off excellence and as a result 1000 people a year compete for 32 spots. for your application iirc you need something like 8 v. strong letters of recommendation and all sorts of other bullshit, and the 'athlete' got expanded to include ridiculous things like alpine skiing.

wire star and fancier of sam cam dominic west once appeared in a film partly about meatheaded american ringers who are brought over to win at rowing

new board description

xp, yeah, i heard stories of visits with congressman to get those letters

http://driftlessareareview.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/declineandfall230.jpg

this is what I imagine goes on across the pond and you can't tell me otherwise.

Ban Oxbridge

the true story, unburied

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-jakusXoAAT0b-.jpg