The Most Unforgivable Thing (What Doesn't Kill Me Makes Me Stronger)

"Although you don't believe me, you are strong
Darkness always comes before the dawn."

I think I'm going to listen to my CD now.

I, personally, don't quite believe that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". I did believe it once, thought, to my mistake. Traumas and awful experiences can harden your shell, that's for sure, but that doesn't mean your inside isn't hurting. Besides, I don't think the kinda "strongness" that follows is something that's good for a person, for a human being. It took me years to find out that I'd much rather be "weak" than "strong". And I feel much better now.

But as I said, this has nothing to do with you Kate, it's just my personal experience.

I'm sorry for your relationship ending that way, I wish you all the best. Really.

That said, my own form of denial lasted years and did untold harm. It was deeper than denial, really, more of a willing suppression of everything. But my excuse was that I was just a kid.

Incidentally, and I recognise this is intensely personal and subjective, but the worst thing about rape is the part of you that enjoyed it. That's a mindfuck from some strange, diseased land.

(x-post)

But ontopic, sometimes denial is crucial for survival. Once it's outlived its usefulness, it just leaves.

I'm not saying that I'm "over" the relationship by any means, or that I'm over him (I still love him, that isn't going to change for a while.) But the strong means that I've not fallen to pieces, I'm dealing with it constructively. It's too much anger to carry around, I just don't want to do it. Forgiveness is for the person doing the forgiving as much as it is the person who did something wrong.

I'm not afraid to cry, I'm listening to a lot of sad music, and really feeling it, and that's lovely. But mostly I feel relief, because we're not fighting any more.

About the rape... erm, no, there was no part of me that enjoyed it. I was quite drunk and drugged up, and I don't actually remember much about it. I can remember things like the police examination and the investigation much more clearly, and that was actually as traumatic again as the rape was. Letting *go*. Saying "that was really awful, but you know, it didn't kill me" was the important thing. Sometimes letting go, forgetting, not dwelling on it, not freaking out is the best thing you can do. Shrug your shoulders, and say "That sucked. But it's over. Move on."

That's exactly what I mean by being strong. Refusing to carry baggage. It's over. I don't need it any more.

The truth is, that he was not as strong as I thought he was, and I'm not as weak as he thought I was.

If I'd known he wasn't so strong, maybe I'd have treated him differently, not thrown so much of my problems on his back, dealt with it and tried to be stronger myself, or find other ways to deal. I got really lazy with him, I started taking him for granted. I think if he'd known how strong I was underneath the constant flapping and stropping, he'd have stood up and said "Oi! Don't lay this on me! Sort it out yourself!" and not got so bruised.

That's what I'm doing right now.

It never rains, it pours, right?

I will finish out my contract here, but I'm going to be moving on, in so many senses of the word. I'm sick of marketing, I really am. I want to do more maths. How can I combine doing lovely lovely mathematics, with the idea of helping children, (which is the only other thing I love about my job) short of becoming a maths teacher?

Getting older, whenever I have been in relationships people have always got frustrated and angry with me because I won't open up to them and because I seem to be very gaurded about things. But I just can't do it. I don't want to talk about things. I don't feel I need closure.

But I do find that whenever any trauma does happen in my life, my coping mechanism just kicks in, it is like things haven't happen. When people in my family have died for instance I find it really had to show my grief. I can't cry, and that makes me feel bad.

(x-post)

It's weird, because I fuss and fret and totally freak out over the littlest of things, because I can actually control them. When really huge, big things happen, I tend to actually go a bit blank.

Things I can control, I totally freak out over (and I think that really wore down Joe in the end) but things I can't control... phew. Let them go. When people in my family have died, I've just gone kind of blank.

Personally, I have my doubts about 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'.

x-post, Pink OTM.

Ah, good. Now I feel even more fucking alone. Your mention of that particular trauma tripped my empathy is all. I wasn't universalizing, or anything. So, for me, being sexually abused as a kid, one of the worst aspects was the enjoyment factor (hidden among the fear, and confusion, and grossout factors). Maybe with things like that, it doesn't make sense to deal with it at the time. The time to "deal with it" will make itself known.

(Weird, my memory of all this surfaced around 9/11, too.)

Mine was an attack by a stranger, not a child abuse thing or a date rape. They're all very different, and trigger different responses.

Rereading, I can see that you weren't trying to extrapolate. That was just my over-sensitivity and, um, basic paranoia around this whole topic. This isn't something I've actually admitted to many people, and that sense of (subtle) complicity in the situation fucks with my head on a regular basis.

Then, there are other traumatic events I've gotten past, so does this make me strong? Some days I feel strong, others not. And what does "strong" mean in this sense? Plus, which side of the scale does receiving the diagnosis/label "Post Traumatic Stress" add to -- does it validate some stuff, put a few things in perspective by throwing them into relief, or does it become a burden in itself?

Look at all these questions I'm asking. Some are rhetorical, some because I have no idea how to answer them.

Rape by a stranger makes me scared to walk down dark streets alone, it makes me scared of clubbing, it makes me scared of strange men in cars, it makes me scared of taking a taxi. It doesn't really involve any issues of trust, it does involve issues of safety.

Child abuse is usually rape by someone you know and trust really well, it's just a different set of issues. Maybe they're issues which are even worse, because it compromises your most basic safety. I can feel safe in my own room with the door closed and locked. If you were raped by someone you knew, then you don't even feel safe in your friends' home, you might not even feel safe in your own home, I would guess.

I don't *like* lables, but I'm prepared to accept "post-traumatic stress" because that's what they said it was, and it seemed to fit. Labels are helpful if they can identify what is wrong, and point you in the direction of fixing it. But firstly, one size does not fit all, your experiences and reactions *will* vary - see above. Point two, an explanation is not the same as a justification or an excuse. See my entire problems with the mental health profession. (Sometimes it just makes you a victim twice.)

Sometimes "strong" means being strong enough to be able to cry. Strong means being able to admit when you can't cope, and learning what to do when you feel like that.

And labels, sure, for me the whole PTSD thing made sense, all the symptoms were present, etc. I couldn't really deny it, unless I dismissed the entire field of psychology. But like you, I don't have a great deal of trust (ha!) in the mental health profession, so it's not that simple. I agree it can leave you stuck in that grey area of victimhood way too long.

Strong means you can express real emotions, appropriately. I can see that. Unfortunately, like the other David on this thread, I haven't ever really been able to cry directly for myself (hey, I've cried at a thousand movies, though, from Bambi through to Fahrenheit 9/11.), and I always attributed that to my English upbringing, but now I know it was compounded by a long childhood/adolescence dedicated to the repression of traumatic memories! Way to lose all trust in your own ability to recall anything, in your own general responses to harm that comes your way.

xposts, but yeah, this thread should probably have a warning about triggering or Metallica flashbacks or something, ha. Seriously, though, careful. I'm being scarily open here, and I hope I don't regret it.

your advice of forgetting things, of not letting these wounds drag you down, is inspiring, Kate, and I hope I can get to that place sooner rather than later...

I was actually thinking about it myself - Relate do breakup councelling. But then I realised, I've done so much councelling in my life, I only really need a refresher course.

not wishing to pry, but i'm assuming this is infidelity of some kind? or am i just revealing my own insecurities here? (and please tell me if its none of my business)

What makes it really stupid is...

1) I had already made up my mind to institute a no contact/no fight period - he was the one that couldn't stick to it and kept calling me.
2) It didn't actually even work. I still love him. In order to break up that way, I have to actually turn that love into hate, and then let it dissipate, and I just don't have the energy to hate him.

It sucks and it hurts, but I know why he did it, and I have actually forgiven him. Time to move on.

(Plus what Pink says, but you knew that already.)

Do you mean that you can be a happy couple without loving someone? Or does it mean that just because you love someone doesn't mean that you will automatically be happy together?

I think either of those are actually possible.

It's two weeks on from the Last Straw fight. In most ways, my life is getting better all the time, I'm happier, stronger, calmer. I've been hanging out with my friends, and it's been great. A weekend in Cambridge, and seeing and meeting all sorts of lovely men reopened my eyes. No, I promise I'm not going to become a dirty old woman, but really, it was just the realisation of how many more fish there are in the sea, how many attractive, cool, clever guys there are out there in the world, and it's stupid to get hung up on one.

I emailed Joe about the Sonic Boom show tonight, because I got paranoid. I was convinced that there was going to be a worst case scenario of me walking in, and seeing him there with his New Screw. This has happened to me before, and it is the worst thing in the world. I would not be able to keep my cool. Anyway, he emailed back, polite but cold, saying he was in Derby for most of the week. I emailed back and said "please call me when you get back, I need my stuff, and we need to talk, so I can have closure."

Because *this* is what is bugging me. One of my biggest problems with our relationship was that he made all the decisions. Everything from little things like what movie we'd watch, all the way up to the big decisions, like where we would spend Xmas/holidays, where we would live. He would make the decision, then I would be informed of it.

That used to make me feel so powerless. I really hated it. Being powerless made me feel weak and hopeless, and that produced depression. Being powerless made me feel frustrated, and that made me feel angry.

I just feel that by cheating on me, it's yet another Executive Decision that he's made, by himself, and now I have to live with it. You know, I don't even disagree that we should have broken up. But I want it to be *OUR* decision, that both of us made, that I had a say in. Not something that he just did to me.

I still want to go back and have That Talk, that we were going to have after a few weeks of no contact. I don't care if we're already broken up, I don't care if it doesn't change anything. I don't want to row, I don't want to dredge up the past. I just want to feel like I had some say in the decision.

Actually, I think I should email him back and say exactly that.

But knowing how conflict-avoidant he is, I don't think I'll ever get the chance. It just isn't fair.

It's just so frustrating feeling so powerless. What I want to do is turn back time, and that's just not possible.

Emotions don't just go away if you don't deal with them. In some cases, they actually get more powerful. There's only so many songs I can write about this.

His avoidance makes me feel ignored, it makes me feel taken for granted, it makes me feel like he doesn't care about me. That makes me frustrated, and it makes me angry. And anger that isn't dealt with grows worse. It doesn't go away, it seeps into other aspects of your life and poisons them.

otherwise steal his monkeyart thingy. that would really piss him off and you'd be making a decision on your own again.

i'm so mature.

did he do something worse?

I want to understand *why* he cheated on me. OK, I already understand *why* he cheated on me, but I need to hear it from him, because otherwise it's going to eat me up inside and drive me crazy, and I'm going to take it out on my next relationship, in terms of trust issues.

And what I want from the wrap-up is the sense of closure. The sense that I agree to this, we've had a discussion, and we're both in agreement. Because right now this breakup is something that he's done to me. I want it to be a decision that *I* am a part of.

Go make friends with R0bin Rimb@ud! I've got his number somewhere...

He did actually say, in our last contact, that he did want to talk about it, he just said not at that moment. I think we both want to talk, I actually do.

x-post, no, the cheat happened before the split. It happened while we were taking a break from contact, but we had NOT split up.

i really do think you shouldn't initaite contact in the meantime, though. easier said than done, i suppose.

i also think that if he continues to be an emotional retard than you should steal his monkey wreath.

I have been fine for the most part, why is this such an awful twinge right now?

Pulling while on a hiatus (for whatever reason, distance or whatnot) from a partner who is not yet an ex is a very cowardly form of changing the dynamic of things, I'll agree. Whenever it's happened to me I've felt like sticking knitting needles up the offender's urethra, but that's just me, and the feeling passed when whichever offender got their karmic payback for being such a boor (it did not take long).

Am I being unreasonable in wanting The Closure Conversation?

Or am I just trying to keep a fresh wound open?

However, I've seen it work for other people.

i've had a couple conversations with exes (years later) that end up with me shocked to discover something about the breakup, info that wasn't given in the closure conversation. so don't rest too many expectations on it, because this close to the event it'll be really hard to do analysis in a thorough way.

you can have your conversation. just not right now. seriously.

I wanted to take two weeks, and then finish the conversation. That's what I was under the impression would happen. It's so frustrating to have to wait until *he's* ready to finish it. That just feels like yet another control thing.

I really don't think having this conversation will do much good in your current situation, in fact it will probably make things worse. You can't resolve the situation, because its not yours to resolve, but you have to work towards the situation when its less of an issue, when there's some perspective, when its not still raw and hurting for both of you. I think almost everything that's been said upthread is otm - a bit of distance is necessary.

Or, both, really. Finish the conversation for him, and that means me being able to put the relationship away in my head.

I guess Matt DC is probably right. Everything is really raw and hurting right now, still, even after I thought I was alright and in the clear. I'm alright, and I will be alright, but I'm not in the clear yet, I guess.

I mean, I do think that he made a mistake. Not in ending the relationship, but the way that he ended the relationship. And there is a part of me that wants him to say "I'm sorry, I made a mistake."

What else can I put the energy into? I just want it to stop hurting so damn much.

He's a silly boy if he couldn't see that your need for a room of your own (essential) and his refusal to officially grant you the space was the thing that did for you two, but sadly this aspect of him is unlikely to change in a meaningful way. Also art feuds are boring, and Joe's are in the tip-top 99th percentile of boring art feuds.

Or am I just trying to keep a fresh wound open?

You're not being unreasonable, and while a minor percentage of why you want to do this *is* to keep the connection there for a little while longer, mostly you'll want to make sense of what has happened, and why, and what you could/couldn't have done to stop the relationship getting soo unhealthy and dying. my ex denied me that for so long, and it just left me so fucked up until, three months and a whole mess of personal junk later we sat down and talked. she still couldn't say what she'd done, or why, or with whom, and she wouldn't take responsibility for anything, but, in a way, seeing how selfish she was, even in this instance, pretty much killed the affection i had left for her.

it's living your life jammed under someone else's 'pause' button that i couldn't stand.

Oh, man, SOOOOOOO on the money!

The band is taking up a lot of my time. Unfortunately, it's the same time that I should be out doing ILX stuff. i.e. we're rehearsing on Thursday and recording on Saturday so no Freaky Trigger or Trig Brother. :-(

But the things I need to say haven't gone away. Maybe I should write him a letter.

I don't even have to send it, really... I've done that before, and it helped.

(so not actually advice, but you've got to remain aware that how you feel isn't "real" right now, which is why you can be fine one minute and devastated the next. Human nature is to find reasons for these unpredictable swings, which is why you want closure, answers etc. But you'll be much more capable of dealing with this when these immeidate feelings have subsided, and that's not going to be for a while)

x-post - personally I wouldn't send the latter Charlie suggests even then. It's strange and surprising how people can rediscover feelings once they think everything's in the past.

I've been thinking about the control issue. That's not entirely fair to him. Yeah, he is a control freak. So I am. You can be a control freak at work, in art, etc. etc. but you cannot be a control freak in a relationship, it just doesn't work.

But part of it, I do actually think was me. I was very passive in our relationship, because I did not want to lose him. I spent a lot of time not contradicting him, not asking difficult questions, not taking control, not making decisions. And that made me dependent. And then it got to the point where, if he made any kind of criticism or tried to give me advice, I took it as him trying to tell me what to do, trying to control me.

I'm not over him and I'm not going to be for a really long time. For the last month of our relationship, all I could think about was his bad qualities and flaws. Now all I can think about are the things about him that I really truly loved.

I think he's got some things about me wrong, and there's a big part of me that just wants to say "you're WRONG!!!" because I want to have the last word. What good would that do? You can't tell someone that they are wrong about you, you just have to prove it.

I can't just say that I'm strong, I have to prove that I'm strong.

But I fear that in the unforeseeable event that I would be able to win him back, that person that I love being, would be mashed and mangled again.

I know that I'm "hard work" right now, but things will get better. Please bear with me.

ugh, that's the worst. i've been in that situation once, and there's just no way to fix it. you can say 'look, that was a weird phase, i'm really like i always was!' all you want, but it just doesn't seem to stick.

write all you want, to whoever you want, as long as it isn't him. i seriously think that you need to have NO CONTACT with him for a few weeks. make it the way you empower yourself-- every day you don't contact him is more proof that you're strong.

(as i'm writing that i was thinking that the time with no contact doesn't always work. although if you just never talked to him again then things might not be complicated again. sorry, personalizing it from my own experience too much!)

This is actually a really good idea. Because I can do it, and it will be something that makes me feel strong, it will turn "not doing something" into "doing something", if you know what I mean.

I don't know if no contact will do me any good. But it might actually do him some good. Who knows.

More than anything, more than having him back, I just want to feel like *me* again. Part of feeling like me again is being my old fearless self, pirate punting, etc, and part of feeling like me again is being in a band and being creative. I just desperately want to feel like myself again, not some sad, miserable, depressed creature. I'd been myself again for a week and a half, and today, I just turned into Miserable Breakup Kate again. Yuck!

(Doubley, I should not call him if I am Miserable Breakup Kate, because that's the Kate that he wanted to be rid of so badly.)

(though if I come back to Cambridge, I am so wearing my pirate cap.)

Two days of hell and crying jags, and the realisation that maybe I'm kidding myself, and yes, I actually want him back. (Accompanied by the realisation that the only way I could ever actually get him back would be to stop the crying and the hell, and turn back into my normal, confident, crush-obsessed self.)

And then this morning, there's a really nice, friendly note from him, offering a couple of different alternatives for a meet-up. If I just want my stuff back, with no talk, I can get it while he's away, (detailing the times that he is away! Wow! When did he become able to plan and let me know? I like this!) if I want to talk, we can talk properly when he gets back.

I feel relief. I'm being realistic; this doesn't mean that we're going to get back together. But it means that he is willing to bargain, and willing to talk. Which makes me feel strong and confident, and able to handle the conversation when it happens, and salvage what I need.

This is going to be OK.

I think you should do this, and help yourself to some of his stuff while you're at it! If he wants it back he'll have to come get it himself! Not that I speak from past experience or anything. Ahem.

I don't feel up to talking right now, but I think that I will feel up to it next week, which is when I plan on doing it.

I feel more strong and confident because I feel like there is a chance that I can salvage *something* from the relationship. It probably won't be a recconcilliation, I know that. There's a slim chance we might be able to salvage an understanding or even friendship in the far-off distant future. But the thing I want to salvage most of all is my own sense of empowerment. Not feeling so out of control, not feeling stuck under someone else's pause button.

(And besides, it looks like certain individuals have also been helping you along. Which is fantastic.)

this is what I'm left with: hold that feeling of empowerment.

He may have a few stinky old vintage leather jackets, none of which cost me over £5, but I've got £75 worth of mixing desk and four Avengers videos of his. If he wants to be a passive aggressive jerk about not giving me my stuff back because he's trying to avoid "The Talk" (which, at this point, I'm starting to think is a futile exercise anyway) then I'm keeping his mixing desk as payment for my Pain And Suffering (not to mention the damage to my amp - he was stupid enough to put it in writing that he wanted to smash my amps) and selling the Avengers videos to buy a new coat in Camden Market.

Nyeah nyeah nyeah nyeah nyeah.

I suspect that he is trying his damnedest to avoid the small chat, as he has been avoiding this sort of thing for OVER SIX MONTHS NOW.

No chat, no stuff exchange, that's my take on it now. He wants to play the game where we don't talk about it, ever, then fine. I will be moving on with a brand new mixing desk and four Avengers DVDs.

Return the stuff to him and get yours at a time when he is not in. In any case the building is portered, so at the very least you can deliver his property (fffffpt! to 'pain and suffering' pretensions). Theft from exes is very juvenile and by being scrupulously honest you set an example (I'd get his mum to come up if he's away, so it's neutral dropoff and you can do something classy like thank her for various forms of hospitality).

i hate when i hear this.

my mother killed my father and herself when i was 16. guess what that did? it didnt make me stronger; it did make me adapt.

No, I'm sorry, but the ball is in his court right now.

If he doesn't contact me to arrange the transfer, then I'm not chasing him. It's me that's refusing to play his game right now.

Personally I like to conduct my relationships without resorting to sport metaphors or temper tantrums. Also, saying it's his turn to act and you're waiting for him is just a wee bit co-dependent.

This is my way of *not* getting upset about it.

Also: Avengers DVDs are always in the HMV sale and are far better than videos, clart. I'd return them with a post-it calling him a pleb/gheye/straight/goth but that's just me.

What I am saying is that if he ignores my attempts to exchange stuff, *then* I'm just keeping it.

The reason that I've "flip-flopped" in 5 days is because there's been no response for a week to my last, nice email.

The most empowering thing you can do is refuse rising to ex-bait, real or imagined (you will get bored). The second thing you can do is behave in such a way that nobody can call you loony, liar or thief afterward - and make sure people know it, as a PR exercise for yourself - if you act destructively your conscience will undermine you anyway, so don't.

That is EXACTLY what I am doing.

Me, I HATE all forms of waiting. I wouldn't like the idea that I'm using a £75 ampwhatever to get my ex's attention (eventually) when I myself am priceless and therefore worth much more than that. I'd return it unobtrusively with a note asking for the return of your few things which can be left with porter by day X.

It hasn't just been five days without contact. I have been trying to get my jackets back from him since day one of the split.

I mean, maybe I am using the jackets issue as a bargaining chip to get him to have the chat. I suspect he is also using them as some kind of bargaining chip - I know me, if I was really serious about ending a relationship with no further contact, any remaining stuff would be on the person's doorstep in a garbage bag with a note calling them a pleb/gheye/straight/goth or whatever.

This just feels (rightly or wrongly) like one more control issue. He has stated quite explicitly in email that he wants to have A Chat, but he wants to have it when *he* is ready. This is the game that I'm avoiding playing.

The whole point about making the decision to keep the stuff and *not* be bothered by his lack of contact was to not stress out about the perceived control games.

And now I'm all thinking about it again and getting upset.

Whatever is going to happen, it's in the hands of Allah right now, not me.

I was just writing down my own plan to keep me from sticking it all over other peoples' threads.

The good news is, he has agreed to talk/exchange stuff/closure conversation/apologies and all that. We are meeting tomorrow.

The bad news is, the reason that he didn't make contact with me for five days is because he has embarked upon a carcrash of a rebound relationship. (Different girl - not even his one night stand that broke up our relationship.)

I am hurt and angry and this is not something that I can shrug off as a drunken mistake and go "it's OK, I can deal with this, I forgive you, it made me realise how strong I am" the way I did with the first one.

I know that it is a Rebound, but that somehow makes it worse. The reason that Rebounds are so powerful is exactly because they are not real. You take all of the emotions that you felt WRT your last relationship, and you just transfer/project them onto the next person, like a surrogate or a replacement. That's why they are so powerful, but they are not real, and it usually leads to a truckload of hurt. Part of me is terrified for him, I still care about him, I still love him, and I don't want him to do this to himself. And I don't want him to do this to *me*. This hurts doubly, first because it is so threatening, and secondly because it's insulting that he thinks he can just replace me.

I don't even really want to talk any more at this point. I'm hurt and I'm angry, and this has really jeopardised my newfound strength and stability. But neither of us could stop ourselves from talking when we were on the phone.

I mean, what do I expect to get out of this? I still want the closure that I described above, the ability to feel like I have some control over my own life, as he agreed himself. But I'm scared I'm going to get shredded in the process.

Despite everything, I am *still* in love with him. Like an idiot, I still think that if we can tweak this or tweak that, we can save the marriage, bring us back together, even though he has given up, even though he's shagging his way through Stoke Newington to prove how much he's given up. He called me a romantic optimist, like it was some kind of insult. He was always down on me for being negative, for "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory." But the one thing that I've always been positive about, he wants to make out like it's some kind of weakness.

Give me strength. I don't know how I'm going to get through the next 24 hours. I am going to bottle out of it, I know it. But I have to be strong, I have to get through this.

Please don't say dumb shit in response to this. I am really fragile right now, and I will just break.

Don't bottle out or do anything else with bottles either!

What Pink said - although the landline's fucked for voice calls right now; I have Ed's phone in the day...

Anything - a look, a hug, a good conversation - could send me back into wanting to be with him.

It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. If the conversation goes badly, I get hurt, and the anger poisons my life. If the conversation goes well, I get hopeful and want to try again.

I've not made a final decision on anything yet. I'm all up in the air. Which is the hardest part. If I were firm and decided, I wouldn't need the conversation, now, would I? (I can't help but think that he feels the same way, I don't know.)

Know the topic that you want to have the conversation *about*, and stick to the topic, but do not go in with a preconceived idea about what the result will be, or what your (both your) decision will be.

Be willing to listen as well as talk.

The conversation I want to have is...

1) This is what I've been feeling lately. Now you tell me how you're feeling.
2) You said certain negative/untrue things about me the last time we talked, and I want to counter them.
3) What was good about the relationship? Why did you love me, why did I love you?
4) What was bad about the relationship? If you have stopped loving me, when and why? What made you give up?
5) Did the bad aspects outweigh the good aspects?
6) What would you have liked to have changed about the relationship? If these things could/did change, would that tip the balance? Are there ways that we still can change these things?
7) If our feelings for each other are truly, irrevocably, damaged beyond repair, where do we go from here?

I'm not sure if step 1 should go first or last. But those are the topics that I want to cover in this conversation.

We even started to talk about it, but then we were interrupted by New Screw Number Two.

Points 2 through 7 do lead into one another. I have been reading the "Rules Of Fair Fighting" (I sent him a copy, too, for what it's worth) and one of the suggestions is, to have an outline and stick to it. Also, be brief and to the point, no monologues. We've both been thinking about this for two months straight, I don't really expect any surprises.

not sure what to think about the rebound girl. is it possible that this is exactly what you need? i remember you saying you needed something to push you over the line from love to hate before you could really be over it, is it possible that this'll do it?

in either case, it's crap and there's no way he should have told you about it, let alone do it. but it's done and now you have to go in tomorrow and show him (not just tell him) that you're the better person, that she is just a rebound, and then goodbye.

hugs, in any case. give me a ring if you need to talk!

The really hard part is the decision that if the answer to 5/6 is no, then I have to walk away.

This is killing me, because I want to save some part of whatever we shared, but I can't do that if he's rubbing New Screw Number Two in my face. That's just too painful.

I want him to be there when I have the operation/biopsy thing, because, I admit, I am scared, and I want someone there that I can trust. (ha ha.) I don't know whether to ask him or not.

I thought I heard him talking to someone in the background, so I asked, "is someone else there?" And that's how it came out.

He wouldn't even tell me her name, that's why I'm calling her New Screw Two. That just seemed weird to me, like, it's obvious who you're talking to, it's obvious what you're talking about, but you won't even say her name, "because she's here"? If I'd just started seeing someone, I would find it weirder that they *wouldn't* say my name.

x-post, yeah, I'm worried that it might seem like emotional blackmail, that's the last thing that I want. I just want someone that I trust, someone that cares about me, to be there when I go to face the big, bad C-word. I just don't want to have to do that alone.

i've only been through stuff like this once, and you know where all that led. at first we were hanging out 'as friends,' and it just didn't work. so i totally cut him out of my life, spent too much time analyzing the situation, and kind of got over it. and even though i wasn't actually over it (hindsight is an interesting thing), i was able to function and be happy and even had the most 'mature' relationship of my life.

don't ask him to come with you to the hospital, there's no way that can go well. you don't want to be thinking about all this stuff at that moment, you want to be focusing on yourself and your health.

(xpost-- mum a great idea, or any of us will come with you, have ice cream with you before, drinks after, whatever you need. i think you should keep health and hsa separate at the moment)

Thanks, Stevie. Will email you.

Any thoughts/comments on the above, BTW?

This is almost certainly going to be a very difficult thing to do but mentioning her is likely to make the whole conversation even more upsetting and messy than it is going to be anyway.

I do *not* want to leap into "just being friends". I know that's bad news. But if there is a chance (see question 6), if he believes that things could be different if the situation was different, I want to offer one more chance to change the situation. (But, like I've said, I can't just tell him that I'm no longer like I had been the past few months, I have to *show* him.)

Ice cream, drinks... sounds like a FAP. Would it be in *really* poor taste to call a "This Is The FAP Where We Curse Cancer And Other Odd Tumours/Growths"?

x-post, I am *trying* to keep New Screw Two out of the conversation. The only thing that I want to say is that I am *worried* about him, because I do not want him to get hurt (though I am more worried about myself not getting hurt). Though he really has to make his own mistakes on this one.

um, isn't that totally your call, rather than ours? :)

The only thing that I want to say is that I am *worried* about him, because I do not want him to get hurt

i still wouldn't go there. he's a boy. he won't understand why you're doing it, it will just sound like jealousy to him...

am thinking, there's nothing worse than having to deal with stuff like this at the same time as handling other dramas. am also thinking, i wanted all those questions answered too. but she was too young, too unavailable, too moved-on when we finally sat down again to even know what her answers to those questions would be anymore.

i'd like to think a negatory response to the last question would be enough to make me not care what the rest of their answers would have been, but also know i love torturing myself too much to do so.

i say: it's over, probably. and that the easiest and healthiest thing to do would be to move on and sever relations, at least for a while. but cold turkey's never easy.

Thing is, I'm not talking about changing stuff in the past, that's impossible and downright stupid. I'm asking "is there anything we can do to change the future?"

For example, one of the things that he brought up repeatedly as a source of conflict was my anger/explosions vs. his conflict avoidance. I am doing anger management for *me*, to help myself, to change my life, my friendships, my career, everything. But... if he could experience a Kate without explosions, would that change anything with regards to us breaking up?

I'm just reiterating how I felt when in a very similar situation with Emam when we split up last September. The recriminations and pleadings and offers of reconciliation lasted MONTHS and I was so angry and sick by the peak of it - I hope I never have to experience that again.

We did get back together again though, and things have changed. I didn't see anybody else in the interim, but I was close.

I don't know if he is actually aware of why he is doing it, subconsciously or not. To me, it looks like he's very blatantly and obviously casting around for a replacement relationship as a way of not having to deal with the breakup of this one. I don't think that's healthy, but that's me.

What I *am* sure of, is that he is not in possession of all the facts, especially about me and how things have changed for me. I am not in posession of any facts about how *he* has been feeling post-breakup or how things have changed for him. I think that those things *do* affect the prognosis for reconcilliation or final breakup.

for what it's worth, i know that the rebound thing doesn't work/seem healthy for you, but it's something that i'm able to do, and it hasn't left me (any more) fucked up. basically, it does work/help/improve the situation for some people. and if he's one of those, then you won't be able to talk him out of it or tell him why it's dangerous or whatever.

I don't know, I find starting a new relationship is often traumatic and stressful, but that's because it's very hard for me to learn to trust a new person.

Even if I know all his reasoning for doing it, that doesn't stop it from bloody hurting. Especially since I perceive this Rebound Fucktoy (rightly or wrongly) as being something which is interfering with either any hopes of recconcilliation or *my* healing process. That makes me very angry, and very hurt.

aww. don't forget, my offer for kicking him in the teeth/stealing his monkeyart still stands...

But I can NOT let go of my hopes for recconcilliation without having this conversation. I know that the chances are slim to none, but I *need* to at least try.

Both on TWX and here you seemed pretty happy it was over, that it was like a scab that neither of you could leave alone.

You're nice, and people like you - hard as it sounds, sometimes you can do that on your own. I know once you feel like you're past being a kid that it's difficult to think of life without a S.O., but it's not that bad.

Personally, I also think taking him to the hostipal is a mistake too unless you're genuinely back together for the right reasons. There are lots of people here willing to go with you, so you needn't be alone.

I'm on my work email if you want to talk more.

It's absolutely impossible to second-guess someone else's reactions in this kind of coversation, however well you know them. Say the things YOU want to say, that's all you have control over and it's going to be important for your dignity and self-esteem when you look back on this - whatever the outcome - that you DID keep control on your end of things.

It's ok to be upset and hurt and angry though. Relationships AREN'T stress-free and people don't have a right to be shielded from the messy stuff, just because they'd rather be.

Hope you get through ok, and with the other stuff too x

No, it's not fear of being alone. I am actually quite happy to be alone (I would *like* to find a life partner, but I can take care of myself perfectly well). In every aspect of my life, I have improved in the past month or so. I love my new band, I'm feeling creatively stimulated. I've been spending quality time with my friends, I love my new house, work is... well, it's tolerable despite all the problems around here lately.

I actually just MISS him.

He's still the first thing I think about when I wake up in the morning, and the last thing I think about when I go to bed at night, because I still turn over and half expect him to be there. Whenever I see an interesting book, I still think "Oh, Joe would really be interested by this, maybe I should get it for him." When I see a cool TV programme, I think "Oh, I bet Joe would like that." When I write a new song, he's the first person I want to play it for. When I discover a cool place or a new walk, I wonder what he would make of it. I miss his green eyes, I miss his doggie noises and his growling in the place of conversation. I miss his endless curiosity, the way that I would come home and find that he'd turned the bedroom into a Camera Obscura or the bathroom into a laboratory.

I think about all the plans we made that we never got to do - movies we planned to see together, Country Houses we were going to visit, meals we were going to eat at various restaurants, the long-discussed trip to NYC for me to show him around. I can't believe that these things are never going to happen now. Yes, most of these things I could do by myself or with a friend, and be fine, but I wanted to do them with *HIM*.

He sometimes accused me of not loving him, because I was never very demonstrative with the Three Little Words, but my god, I just wish now I could tell him all these things

God, I'm crying now, I have to go to the loo and pull myself back together.

This is the most convinced you've sounded about how you feel since this started. I knew you had it in you.

Chin up, kiddo.

Suzy otm with this. I think the most important element here is that you have to really look inside yourself about whether you want to be with him again. On top of that, you need to look at the shitty, painful bits - will you be able to be his girlfriend again without getting upset or bitchy about his rebounds whenever you're stressed or drunk or whatever? Will you be able to deal with the things about him you don't like when they come up again?

If deep down you can answer all these questions honestly and do still want to be with him, that's one thing. But you *can't* have rational, objective feelings right now - we're just not programmed that way. So beware of EVERYTHING you think you're feeling right now, and don't make any quick decisions whatever you do.

On the 1% minimal chance that he would agree to a reconcilliation, I know there's a lot of hard work to be done. We would have to literally rebuild the relationship from the friendship up, establish a friendship, rebuild trust, before progressing to dating. I understand why he doesn't want to go through it. A month ago, I wasn't sure I wanted to go through it. If my anger management doesn't work, if he can't learn to communicate without going into extreme conflict avoidance... it could mean the going through the same amount of pain all over again in months or even weeks.

That's something we could only find out by doing it. I think that I am willing to do that work, if he is, because I think we have something unique that is *worth* saving. I *don't* think he's replaceable with the next bloke to come along.

Sure, I can probably eventually meet someone else, who could be wonderful in their own way. But when something I really value breaks, I would rather do everything within my power to fix it, rather than throw it away and get a new one.

of course you're going to spend some time mourning all the things you liked about him and the things you never got to do, but you'll get through it, and maybe the two of you will get to a point where you can be friends and you can still do some of those things, and it'll be ok.

(normally in this situation, my advice is to try to put your new ex on the 'reserve list', which i find makes it easier to think 'oh, maybe someday we'll get back together and do all those things', but i don't think that would be helpful here, would it?)

putting more stress and pressure onto something might help mend something, but it might also break it. if he doesnt want to have all this closure/reconciliation stuff, you can't force him! it sounds like too much pressure and weight is going to be put on all this, and its certainly not the 'showing him how you can be' you talked out above, is it? isn't this going to just end up being more of the same?

and, the post upthread, snarky or not, still holds true, he knows about ilx, might not he be reading?

I agree with you about the "friendship" stuff, after all, that's what I was saying in the post above. That we would have to start as friends in order to heal, to remind ourselves what we like about each other, etc. But I am *not* able to handle being "just friends" while he runs around screwing other girls, that is just too painful and destructive to me.

I reiterate, he *wants* to talk. In fact, he insisted that we still get together, even after I told him (after finding out about New Screw Two) that I didn't want to talk again. There is stuff that we both need to say/discuss.

I have not actually seen him in exactly three weeks. I know that the sheer physical presence of someone that you have had an intense relationship with can be overwhelming. I hope that I do not get overwhelmed.

Thank you for listening to me today, thanks for the support, and thanks for the advice, even if I decided not to follow it. ;-)

xpost

We talked for about eight or nine hours yesterday. It went really well. It was difficult at times, but I kept my temper and kept my cool, I expressed what I needed to say, he actually opened up and communicated with me, openly, honestly, and told me what I needed (not necessarily what I wanted to hear, but what I *needed* to hear).

I am proud of myself for keeping my temper and not breaking down (despite lack of sleep, despite PMS, despite everything that was against me, I stayed cool) and I feel like I have proved something to myself.

In fact, if anyone broke down, it was Joe, who cried his eyes out, and at one point picked up my diary and started rubbing his forehead against it "because it has your thoughts in it". (It may sound stupid in the retelling, but it was actually beautiful.)

It was very powerful for both of us, I think. Even though he was skeptical at first and was all "I'm doing this for you, not for me" - I do think that he ended up getting a lot out of it, too.

It did hurt, because the connection between us *is* still there, it is still very powerful. But it also felt good, just seeing him, just being with each other. The intellectual affinity is still there, the emotional intimacy, even the physical. (He did kept saying how great I looked, how much weight I'd lost.)

We talked and talked, until we finally reached an understanding, and it turned out that we did actually eventually agree on almost everything. He answered every question except Number 3, that was the only thing he would not answer directly. He got very defensive, and said "I can't answer this, because I feel like you are trying to get back together." I replied "Well, yes, cards on the table for both of us, I don't even want to go back to the hell we were in, but I do still love you, very much." He started crying, and kept repeating "I am going out with someone else now" and wouldn't answer, and just said "please don't ask me this." I don't know why, that's something I just don't know - if doesn't want to be asked because he knows for certain that the answer is no, or if he is terrified that his heart really wants to say yes.

(To get off topic, he did actually come out and agree with me that yes, this was a rebound in all the ways that I described and worried about, but it's something that he seems to want to do anyway. Though, to me, it's telling that the song he is walking around singing in his heart is *my* song.)

His answer, his ultimate answer as to what was the deal-breaker, and why we broke up... he didn't want to tell me, because he thought it would hurt me, and he broke down and cried when he told me that yes, he had actually very seriously considered marrying me. But that he knew that we wanted children, and he thought that my anger, my explosions, my inability to control my rage, would mean that I would be a poor parent.

I wasn't actually angry, I wasn't even hurt. Because deep down, in some way, I actually agreed with him. I mean, that is one of the biggest reasons that I am trying to do anger management at the moment, is because I am sick of hurting the people that I love with my rage.

I wish that he had told me sooner, so I could have done something about it earlier. But in a weird way, I am actually glad that he didn't. Because, had that happened, the decision to do something about my rage would have felt like something that he made me do, rather than a decision that I made myself. It's better this way, and it's more likely to stick, because this *is* a decision that I've made myself. It's something I don't like in myself, it's something that I *want* to change, and I *can* change.

And I swear, right now, with god/ILX/whatever as my witness, that I will do something about this. Even if I never win Joe back, I will do something about this, because I am *never* going to allow my rage to hurt someone else that I love.

Anyway, we didn't come to a decision on number 7. We're both going to take some time and think about things. I flip-flop back and forth between thinking "I love him, I can change, I *will* change, and I will win him back by being the person that I was yesterday, the person that he loves" and thinking "Let it go, put him out of your life for the weeks, months, even years that it will take for you to get over him."

Either way, I kept my dignity, and I got the answers that I needed. If he is The One, then he will come back to me. If he does not come back to me, then he is not The One.

Like I said, when I say that he still loves me... I don't think I'm imagining or projecting it.

x-post, OK, cool, PiX0r!

I'm sorry to be so mean and so spiteful, but that doesn't sound healthy to me. That's not love, that's denial and avoidance. And something that unhealthy, it can not last.

I know it's not my business, but it makes me feel ... something, to know that.

I am a big ball of conflicting emotions. Still. I mean, I feel a *lot* better, because I have the answers that I need. But I still can't keep down the odd combination of hopefullness/yearning because I *do* still think there's a chance, and the grief/pain that it could really be over, done with, forever.

It really is over.

Oh god.

< comforting hug down the wires >

(um, that's really not gonna come thru as i intended, will it?)

lecture over, hang in there :-)

To clarify, I rang Joe on Friday and we had a massive row. I don't want to go into details, but on Thursday, I remembered all the reasons that I loved him, and on Friday I remembered all the reasons that I hated him and the reasons we couldn't be together. I had spent weeks beating myself up and wondering what *I* did wrong, and then that day, it all came back in a rush, everything that was wrong with *him*.

We talked to each other a few hours later, when we'd calmed down and were both more rational. Yes, we loved/still love each other immensely, and we have a lot in common, but on the really big, important things (like the ability to accept that another person is not wrong, they are just different) we are totally incompatible. No matter how much we love each other, it doesn't work, and we are only causing each other more pain.

I *know* this intellectually. It will just take me a long time for my heart to catch up. I have a long grief process to go through right now, and that is very painful.

The first one was with regards to Joe and I remaining friends. And the first half (the current situation) of it was very ambivalent, (some positive, some negative cards) but the second half (result) was The Hermit, followed by the Strife and Ruin and lots of swords cards. That is pretty obvious to me what that means.

Then, on impulse I did another reading with regards to Joe and I still loving each other. Lots of great cards came up there, no swords at all. The card Love, references to success and material gain, references to art and work, even The Wheel of Fortune. I was trying to figure it out, and I kept thinking "that can't be right. There's no way we can be lovers again." And then it hit me. I've been writing a *lot* of songs about Joe over the past few months. That is the ultimate expression of my love for him, to write about him. The message that I get from that reading is that I should channel the love that I feel for Joe into my work - into my music - and that that will bring me success.

That's an interpretation that makes me feel strong, and I like it, so I'm going with that one.

Take all the love and the emotion and channel it into my music, that is what I shall do.

(p.s. lemme know if you want to come to a drunken night out on saturday!)

On a personal level I am desperately sorry for all the neurotic nonsense I spurted out when last we were communicating on ILx. This was at a time when my own "relationship" was falling apart and I was having difficulty dealing with anything. Had to take a break; it was the only way to keep sane - so I didn't really know anything about this until I read the above just now, and I was pretty shocked and stunned to read it.

Like I said on the email I've just sent you; if you fancy doing a bit of Saturday lunchtime record shopping again soon, or anything else for that matter, just let me know. Maybe I'm the last person you want to talk to at the moment, and I've no one except myself to blame for that, but it would be nice to catch up. I'd like us to be friends again...life's too short not to be. Pretty please? :-)

Something similar happened to me some time ago and I was devastated also - I thought I'd never get over it. But I decided to do what you're now doing and found strengths and qualities I never realised I had. About six months down the line, I got back with the man who broke my heart but it was reborn on new and sturdier foundations.

I didn't make the changes to win him back, but I was able to make more reasonable, healthy decisions about my future with him and managed to iron out quite a few kinks in the process.

He later said that he admired my strength and determination to get on with my life and began to think more seriously about what he'd lost and how best he might salvage the relationship. (He also did quite a bit of work too.)

Best of luck.

Know that we haven't spoken for eons, but I'd just asked Pink about you the other day. (She directed me here; cheers, P!) To go on, it's wretched that you had to go through this at all. However, you handled the dreaded conversations pretty well. Grief is a rough stage to handle, especially when it concerns a person you loved so completely.

That said, I think you've been doing the right things in telling him how his leaving made you feel (as the others said): the first step to beginning to heal is purging your hurt and anger. However, don't fall into the guilt trap of thinking this situation is entirely your fault---rationally, you know tis not.

Your music has always been your saving grace: pour everything you feel into it. At my lowest, I've been able to wrap music around my heart like a comforting hug. (Not the best imagery, but I hope you get what I'm saying.)

It's good that you're trying to get a grip on your anger; when you're ready to risk again, both you and Lucky Chap # 3 will be the better for it.

Ditto on the comfort zone: always room in my Inbox for you, otherwise my AIM is usually on.

Wish I could do more right now, but distance is a bitch:<

you sound like a robust, determined person though, so im sure youll pull through.