A question for the ladies (and why not for gay men too).

(x-post)

i guess i'm getting used to it, but it's certainly one of those cultural differences that people don't think about when moving to or from america...

i was so hoping that the Dirty Vicar would arrive just there with the "come 'ere and i'll show you little girl" comment.

I'm going off to sulk now.

the lack of Taco Bell in the UK would be the thing that would distress me the most.

the whole thing has mystified me too, actually. very weird. and there is the jewish connection that i admit total ignorance of - i think you are supposed to be circumcised (?)

but all the rest i've ever seen have been. i think it's probably tradition, and the only people that don't do it have a specific reason.

Well, when Judaism was born in the Middle East, it was very practical to circumcise men for health reasons, especially in a climate like that. But as it often happens, what once was a practical rule was turned into a religious rule, to ensure that people obey it.

i was so hoping that the Dirty Vicar would arrive just there with the "come 'ere and i'll show you little girl" comment.

I'm going off to sulk now.

x-post - seems Charlie may be the person to answer this question.

Anyone know anyone who's been circumcised in adult life, and can thus compare and contrast in some way?

Have a butchers at THIS.

were you trying self-circumcision, nip-tuck style?

OMG i'm not clicking either, the page is called C-Web, for a start!!!

Really? From what I've heard, the "knob" of the penis may turn *less* sensitive for circumcised men, because it is in constant touch with your undies.

Perhaps they tell you different things in countries where they circumcise men than in countries where they don't...

This, in my experience, would be extremely handy!

I'm circumcised. When I was born my cocktube was fused together, leading to the horrible situation that my body was rapidly filling up with urea. Not the best of situations. So I got snipped as part of an operation where they basically created a passage, from what I hear using a very hot thin piece of metal (although that might just be my dad trying to give me the, erm, willies). Cross yo legs, boys.

The upshot of which is that the muscles etc. around that region compensated hugely. I don't mean that the Wang turned into a monster, merely that from an early age I could urinate over twice my height. A popular childhood game around our way consisted of things like "Let's see if Porl can clear that greenhouse". Happy memories.

oh man so many loaded sentences.

http://www.besafeinthevi.com/graphics/screaming.jpg

It was enough to put the fear of god into an inexperienced 13 year old let me tell you. For a week, I think every boy in the school wished they were circumcised.

On the other side of the argument are those guys who wear special apparatus that attaches to the leg and to the penis so that every time you take a step it pulls the skin down a bit further over your penis, creating a new 'hood'.

I still love you, though!

penistata dentata??

(i'm sorry i don't have much firsthand experiences with the roundheads)

Is that good, Tuomas? It's a straightforward answer.

haha you 've just reminded me that at the school I went to, we were somehow divided into "Roundheads" and "Cavaliers" depending on whether or not we'd had the snip, only because sarcasm was so de rigeur at the time, the Roundheads were the uncut ones and the Cavaliers, the cut ones.

Honestly, and people think public school screws you up.

BTW my mate is chopped. I'm gonna ask him tomorrow.

-- Homosexual II (mandeewrigh...), July 20th, 2004 9:08 AM. (Homosexual II) (later)

Mandee, if your screen name is to be believed, what are you even doing reading a thread about penises? I call shenanigans!

um sorry, Tuomas but it probably did, i had a boyfriend who had Phimosis
and this had happened to him a couple of times. i prefer uncut but i prefer cut to uncut-with-phimosis.

There's a line in Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man where a wandering bluesman tells the protagonist that all it takes to get by in the world is "a little spit, grit and mother-wit, and lawd I was born with all three." I've always presumed he was talking about masturbating a circumsized penis, and can tell you from experience that at least 2/3 of his advice is applicable.

The rate of circumcising newborns in the US has decreased a bit over the past 20 years. If I have sons, I doubt I'll have it done.

And I feel I must add this: The Smart Klamp!

i saw a documentary a month or two ago where a religious american couple were agonising over the decision. in the end they got the mohel around to do the deed in order to, and i quote, 'let him have the choice later on in life'. how does this work?

*

*

*

Plus, you can hide things inside it to gross out gurls.

I can imagine it, sure, but it's all moot really.

I think that America has the concept here. It is the US that seems to consider itself above Darwin, in persistently chopping this off, but it keeps coming back.

It just really doesn't make sense. America - happily performing cosmetic surgery on newborn children.

It is not additional. It is yourselves that have a shortage. Do you want to trim your earlobes off? They kind of hang excessively...

You're making it seem like I wanted to have this done. As I've said - I had no choice in the matter, and I have had no problems with my penis-related life, so I'm not going to go apeshit on my parents about 'performing unwarranted cosmetic surgery' on me or anything. Geez...

It confuses me, that's all.

I should pioneer the ear surgery myself, I think!

Plus, no-one has actually explained why the fuck it's done in the first place (other than for religious or rare medical reasons or to prevent an apparently non-existant bacterial disease). Can anyone explain why this is and when it became normal practice?

Frequently Asked Questions About Circumcision
1. Isn't circumcision just a little snip?

Circumcision is much more than that. In a typical infant boy, the foreskin is a double-sided sleeve of skin and soft mucosal tissue that completely encloses the glans (the head of the penis). It is actually physically bonded to the infant's glans. This skin contains thousands of blood vessels and specialized nerves. In an adult, it would grow to cover 12-15 square inches. To remove this structure, a doctor forces a metal clamp inside the foreskin, and tears the skin away from the glans. The doctor then slices the foreskin down past the glans and cuts the foreskin off. The entire procedure is excruciatingly painful. It is often done without anesthesia, since anesthetizing such a young infant can be very dangerous. Partial or complete amputation of the penis sometimes occurs. Some children even die from the trauma, hemorrhage, or other complications.

2. What problems can occur after the initial surgery?

Immediately after circumcision, a child is at risk for infection and hemorrhage. The loss of the protective foreskin places him at risk for complications including meatitis (inflammation and ulceration of the urinary meatus), meatal stenosis (constriction of the meatus, resulting in blocked urinary flow and potential infection), preputial stenosis (scarring that constricts the glans), and buried penis (entrapment of the penis by scar tissue). Together, these conditions, which are almost unheard of in non-circumcised males, affect up to 20% of circumcised males and may require additional surgery.

A circumcised male may also experience chafing and abrasion of the exposed glans against clothing, painful erections due to the tightened skin, scarring, and desensitization that can severely reduce enjoyment of sexual activity. A circumcised penis may be significantly smaller than it would otherwise have been. For more information, see the Science Library, under "Complications of circumcision."

3. Isn't female circumcision worse than male circumcision?

Female circumcision is typically viewed as more horrific than male circumcision because it is usually done under unhygienic conditions rather than in a hospital, and because one form of female circumcision, infibulation, is particularly severe. However, both male and female circumcisions are classed as genital mutilation by the International Coalition for Genital Integrity. Both forms of circumcision remove functional, normal tissue, cause extreme pain, permanently disfigure the genitals, and permanently damage the sexual response. When done to infants or children, both male and female circumcisions violate human rights since they are performed without the individual's consent.

The World Health Organization recognizes three types of female circumcision. Type I removes the clitoral hood and/or the clitoral tip. Type II removes the clitoral hood, clitoris, and part of all of the labia. Type III, also known as infibulation or pharaonic circumcision, involves removal of all external female genitalia and suturing of the vaginal opening.

Male circumcision can be compared to type I or II female circumcision. Although the glans is not harmed at the time of circumcision, the loss of protective structures causes it to dry out and lose sensitivity over time. It is also important to note that many of the nerves and pleasure receptors present in the clitoris are, in the male, present in the foreskin, so removal of these nerves constitutes a loss that can be most adequately compared to a partial clitoridectomy.

4. What is the value of the foreskin?

Throughout life, the foreskin protects the sensitive glans from injury, abrasion, chafing, and infection. The foreskin keeps the glans soft and moist so that it maintains sensitivity. During sexual activity, the foreskin glides up and down over the glans, providing pleasure from thousands of specialized nerve endings. Parts of the foreskin, including the frenulum (a narrow membrane on the underside of the foreskin) and the ridged band (the edge of the foreskin, between the inner and outer skin), are particularly important in sexual function. See the Science Library, under "Foreskin sexual function."

The foreskin secretes immunological substances that fight infection, called lysozymes, and also produces natural lubricants, reducing the need for artificial lubricants during sex. The presence of the foreskin can enhance the sexual experience for both partners. Polls of women who had experienced both circumcised and uncircumcised partners indicated a strong preference for the latter, with longer duration of coitus and higher rate of orgasm cited as the main reasons (for example, see "The effect of male circumcision on the sexual enjoyment of the female partner" from the Science Library).

5. If circumcision were really harmful, wouldn't a lot of men be talking about it?

A lot of men are. National organizations such as NOCIRC (National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers) and NORM (National Organization for Restoring Men) testify to the existence of millions of men who have lost sensitivity and function due to circumcision. Married, single, heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual men of all ages are finding that their adult sexuality has been compromised by the loss of their foreskins in infancy.

Because our culture discourages men from admitting feelings of inadequacy or discussing health problems, particularly those of a sexual nature, many men have felt unable to describe their problems or have not found a receptive audience to their concerns. Many are also unaware of how much feeling they have lost; it is impossible for a circumcised man to know what degree of pleasure he might have enjoyed, had he not been circumcised. There is medical literature suggesting that circumcision causes sexual dysfunction later in life, as well as anecdotal evidence from circumcised men who experienced problems with chafing or lack of pleasure from sex (see Personal Stories).

Circumcision affects each man differently. During the healing process, some may be able to reroute the severed nerves and blood vessels and may retain feeling, while others may suffer a greater loss in their ability to feel. Some men feel numb during sexual activity and are unable to feel any pleasure. One man who was circumcised as an adult compared his sexual experiences before and after to the difference between seeing in color, and seeing in black and white.

6. If circumcision doesn't provide any health benefits, then why do doctors still do it?

The primary reason in the United States is cosmetic. The image of the circumcised penis has become so much a part of our cultural consciousness that most people do not know what a non-circumcised penis looks like. They may feel that the natural look is ugly or may think it is unhygienic. Discomfort with the natural appearance of the penis is a learned response.

The power of tradition cannot be underestimated. Many parents cite their desire to have their son look like his father, or like his friends. As the circumcision rate in the U.S. falls (it is now around 65%), the intact penis will become the norm instead.

Some parents ask for circumcision because they believe that it will save their sons from having health problems later in life. In fact, circumcision does not provide any protection against infection, penile cancer, or sexually-transmitted diseases (including HIV/AIDS), and does not reduce the rate of cervical cancer in female partners. (See the Science Library, under "The role of the prepuce in prevention of disease and infections.") Myths about circumcision are slow to die and are still used to justify many surgeries.

Another reason doctors continue to perform circumcisions is that they, like the general public, are unaware of the value of the foreskin. The standard medical education in the United States includes the technique of circumcision but not a description of normal penile anatomy or function. Around the turn of the century, medical textbooks began printing images of circumcised penises instead of intact ones, so most medical students do not even have the opportunity to learn what a normal adult penis looks like.

Circumcision is a quick, easy procedure that doctors can perform in just a few minutes. The cost of an infant circumcision is a few hundred dollars. Amputated foreskins can be sold later to pharmaceutical and medical research companies for use in the production of shampoos, emollients, and skin for burn therapy. The financial incentives may complicate the issue.

7. Isn't circumcision part of Jewish religious heritage?

Circumcision occurs in both Jewish and Islamic religious traditions. In Judaism, the circumcision is performed during a naming ceremony called a Brit Milah, and is done by a mohel on the 8th day of life. In many Islamic traditions, circumcision is done near puberty, and the ceremony is called a kataan.

The vast majority of infants who are circumcised in the United States do not have Jewish or Muslim parents and are not circumcised for religious reasons. Furthermore, hospital circumcision does not fulfill religious requirements because it is not performed as part of a religious ceremony.

Within the Jewish community, there is much disagreement about circumcision. Some feel that circumcision contradicts other aspects of the Jewish religion. The Torah forbids the torture or causing of pain to any living creature, especially physically assaulting or harming another person (Exodus 21:18-27). Jewish law specifically forbids body modification, including the cutting or marking of the human body (Lev. 19:28). Jews are also required to help those who are helpless, such as newborn infants, and are exempt from performing religious duties that would cause harm to others.

There is an alternative ceremony called a Brit Shalom that incorporates the tradition of the naming ceremony without damaging the foreskin. Ronald Goldman's article, "Circumcision: A Source of Jewish Pain" provides an in-depth discussion of circumcision from a Jewish perspective. There is additional information under the Religious Support section of our site, including contact information for Jews Against Circumcision.

Some ethicists feel that all types of infant and child circumcision, whether done as part of a religious ceremony or not, violate human rights. Female circumcision is seen as a human rights violation even though it occurs in the context of a religious ceremony.

8. Some babies don't even cry when they're circumcised, so it must not hurt them. Even if it is painful for them, if they can't remember the pain later, why does it matter?

It's impossible for us to know what kinds of long-term consequences a procedure as traumatic as circumcision might have on the developing mind and senses of a newborn baby. Babies who don't cry during circumcision are so severely traumatized by the pain that they lapse into a state of shock. For all infants, the experience of circumcision is an injury that betrays their early desire to bond with their caregivers. Babies who have been circumcised are significantly more likely to avoid eye contact, to be unresponsive to adults, and to have problems breast-feeding.

Babies may feel pain more intensely than adults. Because the neural pathways that allow “pain-killer” endorphins to be released in response to severe injury are not yet fully developed, babies may experience more intense and unrelenting pain than they would if they were subjected to the same trauma later in life. There is also evidence that the memory of circumcision pain is retained far longer than previously thought. In one study, circumcised male babies reacted more severely to the pain of vaccination months later, than non-circumcised male babies did. See the Science Library, under "Pain of circumcision and pain control."

9. If parents decide not to have their son circumcised, won't he be teased?

The body of a non-circumcised boy is normal, healthy, and whole. A proper understanding of his own anatomy and the reasons he was allowed to remain intact, will enable a boy to feel self-confident about his body. Furthermore, circumcision is already uncommon internationally and is becoming less common in the U.S.

10. Isn't it more complicated to care for an uncircumcised penis?

An infant's foreskin is non-retractable and should not be forcibly retracted for cleaning. It does not require any particular care. By the age of 18, most men's foreskins will have become retractable, and can be cleaned by sliding the foreskin back, rinsing with warm water, and letting the foreskin slide forward again. It is not necessary to use soap or any harsh cleansers. The intact penis is a self-cleaning organ that produces smegma (a creamy substance also produced by females, containing dead cells and immunological substances) to combat infection. See the Science Library, under "Proper penile hygiene for intact men."

Following circumcision, the penis requires careful attention and monitoring. In the absence of complications, the wound takes as long as ten days to heal. During this time, the child may have difficulty sleeping and breastfeeding. In addition, there is a risk of infection, adherence of the bandages to the wound, and abnormal healing.

11. What if an uncircumcised man has problems with his foreskin later?

The most commonly cited indication for circumcision after infancy is a condition called phimosis, in which the foreskin becomes inflamed and tight around the glans. This can result from premature, forcible retraction of the foreskin, which causes tearing of the skin and creates a raw wound susceptible to infection. Circumcision is an excessive treatment for phimosis, which can be resolved by steroid creams, preputioplasty, and gentle manual loosening and stretching of the foreskin. See the Science Library, under "Conservative treatment of penile problems."

Like every part of the body, the foreskin has the potential to develop malignancies. Malignancy of the foreskin is extremely rare (approximately 1 in 100,000) and occurs mostly in older men. The only other medical reasons to circumcise are frostbite and gangrene of the foreskin, also extremely rare.

12. How late can parents wait to make the decision about circumcision?

Parents may wait as long as they like to make this life-changing decision; circumcision does not need to be performed at any particular point. Parents are typically asked during pregnancy whether they want a circumcision if the child is a boy. In more rushed scenarios, mothers may be presented with a circumcision consent form while they are in labor or under anesthesia. Doctors usually do not provide comprehensive information about the procedure or its effects, so parents need to take the time to educate themselves about it.

If they decide not to circumcise, they must be prepared to enforce their decision and to not allow the infant to be removed from their sight while they are in the hospital. There are numerous cases of circumcisions being performed on infants whose parents had not given consent, or who had directly indicated that they did not want a circumcision done.

13. What is foreskin restoration?

Partial, non-surgical restoration of the foreskin is possible. Circumcised men who wish to restore their foreskins can attempt the slow process of non-surgical restoration, which involves gradually stretching the shaft skin over the glans until it grows enough to cover the glans. There are various techniques, including daily manual tugging, taping, or extension devices like weights. The process typically requires several years. Many men who have restored report benefits including reduced chafing, enhanced lubrication and softness, and enhanced pleasure during sex. For more information, visit the National Organization of Restoring Men (NORM).

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NotJustSkin is an educational charity that is not associated with the government or any private corporation. Our mission is to provide public access to accurate scientific information about questionable medical procedures and to advocate for human rights.

People are not just skin.

Also, there are a hell of a lot of hetero men on this thread. CAN'T YOU READ??

This is the new "men who shave their pubic hair" thread isn't it.

Haha people who compare this to clitoral cutting haven't the faintest fucking idea.

"i just don't see why people have to circumcise"

"soon this bottle will be FULL of foreskins.. FULL!!"

Sure, but circumcision seems a rather cruel habit to continue (Kephms post was quite clarifying), especially since it's about parents making a decision for their son which he can never reverse, even if he wanted to.

Barry you are bad man.

Actually, have you seriously done this? What sort of things did you hide?

are you saying that that neck thing isn't ok?

"Hey sweetie darling try rolling down my foreskin.. I've gotten you a suprise!!"

Well at least it's not like having yr vag sewn up.

I saw a site recently by a woman who has hers pinned shut with big, thick piercings. It had lots of close-up photographs, and left me feeling rather ill.

Isn't he dead?

read the notjustskin propaganda upthread.

at the same time?

As for my personal preference, appearance-wise I probably prefer circumcised, but not all that bothered, and I can't say I've ever *felt* a difference.

I can't say there's really a difference inside, but I like uncircumsized better because they're easier to play with in other ways and just a lot cuter.

My school report from 1993 says that the teacher was proud of me for "coming out of my shell". I always had my suspicions about her.

I read an article once about a baby born with some serious skin condition that required a skin graft, and they took baby foreskins and made the graft out of them.

I once had a house-cleaning job for an elderly bachelor. He had a Masters and Johnson-type clinical sex book in his bathroom. It had a story in it about the sexual misadventures of some naive newlyweds. The groom, in his ignorance, had tried and tried to insert his penis into his bride's urethra. By the time they finally went to a doctor to find out why they were having such a difficult sex life, the opening of her urethra was dilated to the size of, hmm, a fat fountain pen???? Ouch.

Maybe there's money to be made supplying used foreskins to disgruntled chop-ees.

Maybe there's money to be made supplying used foreskins to disgruntled chop-ees.

what about miniature hats?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jul/05/circumcicision-health-children

I'm not circumcised and I've always been against it. Now i'm a little less sure. However, when you get to the reasons why circumcision helps prevent AIDs and STDs at the end, as usual, it seems to boil down to having your penis mutilated so you can wash less & visit prostitutes. Here's an idea; if you wash your cock properly and don't visit prostitutes that might also stave off cervical cancer in your partner and genital warts in yourself?

I may be totally wrong here of course, and should get myself snipped for Em's sake, but I'm a little cynical.

I'd guess the risk for HIV and other STDs extends beyond prostitutes and their johns.