I may be finished...

Does ILE help as a chin-prop? You seemed pretty cheerful at the pub on Monday.

I'm just reminded of the old joke. "How do you eat an elephant?" "One bite at a time" because that's really the only way to get through this sort of multiple pileups.

I guess all I really want to say is that I think you're really groovy, and I'm sorry this stuff is all happening. I was thinking about you as I went home from the pub on Monday night. You had been really kind to me, and it just made me feel a bit warm and fuzzy. You're one of the most supportive and open-minded and accepting people that I know. I wanted to say that to you, and thank you for how understanding you had been on Monday night, but I didn't really know how or when to say it without sounding corny. So I'll say it like this. You're a wonderful guy and I'm sorry you're going through this.

Hopefully other people will have some actual financial advice and the like that will be more helpful, cause I'm lost with regard to that.

Quite so. Martin, if this is at all possible, call back your loans to friends and explain why it's needed. At least get that taken care of.

can i suggest that if it turns out that you do owe them 8 grand (and it sounds to me a lot like you won't, not all of it) that you talk to the council and see if they'll agree to some sort of payment plan. don't worry about it. there are solutions for this stuff.

it sounds like hard work now but once you get the ball rolling again things become easy. i'm actually just now snowed under dealing with working two jobs and sorting out family affairs and other shit all at the same time and i'm also trying to motivate myself to Get Things Done.

Because the little stuff that keeps you engaged is the stuff that gets you through in the end.

I thought that practical advice would be the best kind of response to your post. If nothing else, the effort and work involved in sorting this business out will help to keep your mind away from darker areas, even if only temporarily; but of course it is easy for me to say that and presumably next-to-impossible (clinically?) for you to do. Goosing yourself up to actioning any of this is, I'm afraid, something you'll have to find the strength, or perhaps even a mild degree of ruthlessness, within yourself to achieve. If you're receiving psychological follow-up then go and have a talk with your consultant about possible strategies you could follow; or you could simply go to your GP and ask to be referred. If your GP is unsympathetic, just contact your local NHS trust and see what they can do.

Not sure how much, if any, help all of this will be, but it might prove a useful starting point.

If the solicitor failed to tell you of these costs, that puts you in a strong position. The council will certainly agree to a repayment plan - it's not in their interest to bankrupt you. Don't allow yourself to feel that anyone's against you - even the council are simply trying to get what they're owed. It's in everyone's interests to get this sorted quickly and simply.

I hope some of the friends to whom you lent money are able to pay some of it back. I'm sure that even if they're not able to, they'll provide support and affection when you need it most.

Keep us updated, and don't ever worry about venting.

i know exactly how you feel, though for me its just some days, and not all the time. i can say that, for me, therapy is helping a great deal, but i can't speak for you or your experience. the constant tumbledown of bad things all at once is a nightmare, and can make life seem silly, unreal, a sick joke. it isn't though, its just random chais theory serenely fucking with us, and you just have to trust you'll catch some good luck along the way.

best wishes to you martin, stay strong...

Keep writing it all down. I know it helps clear my head. ILX has a lot of ears and doesn't mind venting.

I'm sorry to hear about the pickle you're in. Condolences, too. This sounds like a hell of a lot for anyone to deal with, depressed or not.

Trying to look at the little picture (one thing at a time, elephant in bite-size chunks) instead of everything at once does seem the best way to approach it. And finding people to help you so it doesn't feel like you're facing it alone.

Don't think about it all too much. Try to distract yourself. Try to find the energy to have more fun. This stuff will sort itself out.

Unlike Kate I don't know you personally but, partly as a fellow oldie, I have always enjoyed your posts. I'm sure the rational part of your brain will be telling you that there's a perspective from which an unexpected £8,000 debt, while obviously very unwelcome, isn't such a VERY big deal. I appreciate that the loss of that perspective is a symptom of the illness, but you need to try to focus on the fact (as I'm sure you do) that that normal perspective will reassert itself at some point.

Regarding the practical problem: I'm a Scot and not familiar with some aspects of English law, but I do have a working knowledge of contract law and I'm having difficulty understanding how these liabilities became yours.

Any contracts that were entered into by the seller for repairs and services would have left him with the legal liability. In certain circumstances I can imagine that the council can require an owner (whoever he is) to make repairs and then instruct someone to make them, but again the liability would accrue to the person who owned the property at the time the repairs were made or the services provided. I have some difficulty in seeing how these liabilities have been passed to you.

The two obvious possibilities:

1. That you explicitly assumed these liabilities as part of the contract made when you brought the property. This may spring from my lack of awareness of English law, but I would have imagined this would be a pretty unusual (in fact I'd have thought downright bizarre) clause to be included in the contract and should certainly have been spotted by your lawyer.

2. There is some specific law that enables the council to treat the new owner is as responsible for liabilities incurred by the old. Again this would strike me as very odd though I wouldn't rule it out as a quirk of the English property system - perhaps someone else may enlighten me. It occurs to me that if the liability is passed to you in this way it is possible that you still have rights of recovery from the buyer.

In trying to determine whether there is a solution to this it would be useful to understand the mechanism by which these liabilies (allegedly) transferred to you.

(several x posts)

You are a great guy and I feel for you and the situation you're in. I guess I would recommend getting to your doctor first, as the depression seems to be the big thing blocking you from figuring out a way to handle the other associated shitty things. Also, drop us another line (but don't spend all of your time here).

(Very presumptuous, but could another Londoner who knows where Martin is swing by and, I don't know, bring him a cake or something?)

All the advice is good, I think, and I kind of know what steps I need to take, but few of you can grasp how hard it is for me to do anything - I could never have understood this before I experienced the illness. Last time I really wanted to go shopping, because I'd run out of some important things, I got a crippling panic attack. This doesn't just mean that I felt scared, it involved muscular tension enough to bring on cramp in one leg, and the most painful headache I've ever had from the neck tension. Shopping isn't at all difficult or stressful, and I don't even mind doing it, in normal circumstances. Compare how emotionally demanding a trip to Sainsbury's is with this scare, adding in the threat of losing my job and a relative dying, and imagine how hard it is to face. Even trying to distract myself (with the new Dizzee album and reading ILX) and not think about it and certainly not do anything over the last few hours, I had to stretch to kill another cramp, I have another tension headache, and my stomach hurts.

Thanks for the kind compliments too. They really help. I guess the trouble is that being a nice guy is no help to me right now - I think I've been a pretty strong and brave person for much of my life, but I have no strength or bravery nowadays at all.

Doctor: I saw my doctor over a month ago, and due to the state I was in he said he'd refer me to a consultant psychiatrist, to reconsider my treatment (I am on antidepressants already), asking for a very urgent appointment. I spoke to the Community Mental Health Team last week: they received his letter 29 days after I saw him, and it told them almost nothing. They promised to call me back with news of when I could see someone last week, but didn't, and I still haven't heard. I've not yet mustered the strength to make the call to ask what is happening.

I'm not bipolar, so the upswing won't necessarily come. I've suffered with this from years, and often felt like ending it. I feel as if I am reaching the point where I can't face it all any more.

Sorry to seem as if I'm just dismissing everyone's kind words and sound suggestions. I am absorbing them, it's just unimaginably hard to act on anything at the moment.

(Now you are all free to ridicule me for being vapid.)

Martin - concentrate on getting well, or at least stable enough to function for now. Don't worry about the 8 grand, that's peripheral. It's YOU that's important.

I know it's easy for me to say because it's not me they're after for the money, but I don't believe you'll have to pay in the end. Frankie talks a lot of sense upthread and for sure it'll need to be dealt with at some point, but not NOW. Fob off all enquiries from the council with 'I'm taking legal advice' and concentrate on YOU.

I hope you can get some help and counselling from the NHS- they have been tardy up to now, but don't give up on them. There's a lot of love for you on ILX and I know you can find the strength beat this thing. Drop me an email if you want to chat. We can talk on the phone if it would help. Take care.

Keep after the doctors. Let your lawyer handle the money thing. And know that so many of us are thinking of you, and pulling for you. You WILL beat this.

If you need to get out of London and get some fresh surroundings for a few days let me know.

Listen everyone, this is probably mostly just a momentary panic. It does seem highly likely that there is negligence from solicitors at the root of this, so I think my chances are good of getting someone else to pay this. If not, I'm sure the council will give me time, and I do earn good money. I may well get over this panicked and thoroughly depressed feeling soon, I hope.

If I were in London, you'd be getting a Velvet Underground cake or apricot nectar cake by now. I send you cake vibes, mmmmmmzzzzzzzzmmmmmm.

what is needed here, i think is a martin skidmore love brigade (god that sounds pornographic), a ilx relief society that can go to his place, and do the things that he needs done--even if it watching a movie or anything like that.

hes much to fucking humble to say that he needs this, but obv. he does--ilx may be electronic, but i think there is real community here, and this is a time when we need to pull together, so Tom, Tracer, Kate, Dr C, Marcello, Pete, etc etc, pick up the slack (think of it as a bat signal)

i would do it for him, but see im not in london,.

*I've said before that I think my feelings of friendship for a lot of people here (most of those I've met, really) are not returned as strongly, and that is absolutely not a complaint or criticism - partly due to my depression, I've been too timid to make significant overtures beyond chatting at FAPs and such things, so why would anyone even know how much I like them? And given how I've been a lot of the time, such as on this thread, why would they want to spend more time with me anyway? Please don't take this as fishing, though I guess it must look like that - I'm trying to say why I haven't forged stronger friendships in London ILX, why it's mostly down to me, and why therefore no great obligations are entailed.

** or elsewhere, really, if anyone fancies a drink after work any day, that kind of thing. That actually might be a bit useful to me, as something as casual as that, i.e. a pint or two, an hour or two, not necessarily a whole evening or a big FAP, if I know about it at least the day before might give me a hand when trying to get to work, as an extra incentive - I wouldn't get myself our specially just for a casual pint, but it would help get me to town for work. So offers of such things would be appreciated, but I do appreciate how busy most people's lives are, so no expectations, let alone responsibilities, you know? Just if anyone thinks it might be good.

No idea if U.K. housing law is at all similar, but there's at least some chance that once you find out who was supposed to tell you about this stuff and didn't, you won't actually owe the money yourself.

xpost - has alba just turned into "the equalizer"??

xxpost

And as for the contract thing - well I work in a contracts OFFICE so could ask the guys here what they think about this to see if they have any idea. Should I send things to the lonewolfcub address if I get anything useful?

And it was good to see you at the FAP - you seemed happy so I didn't want to bring any potentially unhappy topics up, but yes, a good thing. Hope to see you soon.

In my case, the residents have insisted a much cheaper contractor was invited to tender which would work out at around 2k each.

There was a Newsnight special on this housing situation recently (people getting bills of 25k for their share of a roof replacement).

I do think that this probably isn't a disaster or crippling problem in itself - it's just that I was already at my lowest ebb in years, and not fit to cope with anything more. I keep envisaging the following circumstances: the stress means I miss more work and get fired. I don't cope with this legal stuff, or I am somehow screwed, and therefore I'm broke. I don't have the strength to get another job in these circumstances, so I lose my home and everything else. I actually think I'd give up before I even get to that last step, and they all look kind of plausible.

I didn't get in to work yet again today, unsurprisingly. I don't know how close I am to losing the job.

I do really want to be in work - it's much better for me than moping around at home, killing time, and I am good at my job and get positive feedback when I'm there, which makes me feel better.

hope this practical advice is of some help, i don't have enough knowledge/experience of depression stuff to feel i can help out there...

see you soon (on saturday, i believe :))

I just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy your presence here on ILX, and would definitely seek to meet up with you in person if I were ever in your area. You seem to understand what's going on inside of you to some extent, which is a very important step towards getting over stuff like this. I have every confidence that you will find it within yourself to beat this problem.

From what I've read on these forums, you've had some really great periods of your life in the past. It just seems like you've been struck by particularly poor circumstances these last few years. Things will change, slowly and surely. Don't let money fuck with you and get you down. There is no way you can't pull out of this as long as you keep yourself alive. Even though the days may stretch out into infinity, there's always something you can do to help yourself. (and I don't need to explain what those things are, because you know very well what they are)

Please take care of yourself, Martin. You're a good person having a bad time, but it won't be this way forever.

So yeah. Hang on with everything you've got. You're one of the best this community's ever been graced by.

Pink: cognitive therapy: I was referred along to a cognitive therapist a few years back, and saw her several times. The trouble was she was a very hard-line cognitive therapist, and what I was experiencing didn't fit her paradigms at all. We soon agreed that it was a waste of time - she always seemed to think I was lying to her or something. I would like some therapy now, but the first thing is getting ANY contact going with the mental health people here. I rang the team just now, and found someone who couldn't find any reference to me and kept saying that I SAY I have been referred to them, and I kept pointing out that they called me about this referral last week, so it wasn't in my imagination. Apparently if I'm lucky someone may tomorrow consider talking about giving me an appointment sometime. I said that the state I'm in, I don't know how many days I have left, and he suggested I go to the hospital and tell them I'll kill myself if they don't commit me, and then once in the hospital I am sure to be seen by a psychiatrist within just seven working days. So that's by a week from Monday. The other time I was in hospital for this illness, after my suicide attempt three years back, they told me every day that I would be seen by the psychiatrist that day, and should sit and wait patiently. I was there five days, and was seen by no doctor at all. My wife had told me, in my first conversation after regaining consciousness, that she was leaving me, and I eventually left the hospital to see her one last time before she left. I spoke to them on the phone and said I would come back for an appointment at their convenience, but not just to spend more days sitting around getting more depressed. Feeling that no one cares about you is a standard symptom of this illness, so being given concrete evidence that even those who are paid to take care of you can't be bothered doesn't help.

Anyway, this means I don't fancy putting myself through that again. I pointed out that this was a colossally greater burden on the NHS than just giving me an appointment. The guy I spoke to has promised to ring me back by the end of the working day, but given that eight days ago I was promised a call back by last Friday, I won't hold my breath.

My employers are fully aware of all the details of my illness, and I told my boss's boss this morning about yesterday's shock council letter. I am still scheduled for a disciplinary hearing soon, at which I expect to be given a final formal warning. Maybe I do need to speak to the union about this, but they seem to be following their procedures, as far as I can tell.

Anna, I don't think it's about ingratitude - I hope not - I just feel utterly, 100% worthless at these times, and that no one could care about me, and that I don't deserve it anyway. The contrary evidence here and in emails does help me believe otherwise, yes, and I do really appreciate it. It means a lot to me, and especially from people I like enormously, such as you and Carsmile and Sarah and Steve, to take the most recent four posts from people I know well in person.

and xposting is John! That makes me feel it too - not that I know John, but someone I admire from afar breaking his exile for me is genuinely moving. Thank you, John, a lot.

Look! Up in the ILX! It's a mod! It's a poster! It's SKIDMOREMAN! Able to leap over unexpected debts! Able to go to the shops! Life may throw Skidmoreman the occasional setback, and sometimes the odds may seem overwhelming, but Skidmoreman can overcome!

(Sorry if this is over the top)

Best of luck.

- Alden Nowlan, from "He Attempts to Love His Neighbours"

Martin, please keep fighting this, any way you can. Talk to work, I couldn't when I was having severe problems last year and even though I didn't like them very much, it would have helped them to understand and not be so hardnosed about it. I'm glad you have a direction to go with the council situation.
Pinxor is OTM about finding a counsellor you are comfortable with, and not going anywhere because we all really like you.

Martin Skidmore: Urban Fisherman

Up there with Ronan: Man of oats.

Update: I just called the community mental health team again, and talked to the fifth person there, so far. After explaining that I'm in a desperately low mood and don't feel as if I have too many days left in me, he told me that I could expect an appointment in about December. I said I didn't fancy my odds of being around by then, and I got another suggestion to go to the hospital, but he said that if I went to the kind of mental health A&E they have, I would get to see a psychiatrist, maybe after waiting an hour or two, and they would be able to do what I want, if they agree that it's desirable, which is increasing or altering my medication. He said they're open 24 hours, so I should go this evening. I thought I'd ring them up to check first, see if there were particular good or bad times, and they told me that if I turned up out of office hours I could see someone, but they wouldn't be willing to do anything useful without a copy of the referral letter, so I should turn up between 9 and 5. I'm going to go there tomorrow, see if they can do anything - I don't fancy my chances of feeling up to work, and anyway I think in the longer term getting some real medical help will benefit my attendance most anyway.

Dr C, I am watching a Buffy rerun rather than playing music right now.

Evidently, there are many and each one acts in a different way and I'm betting that you are aware of this. Perhaps there's one or two that haven't been tried, though? All the best.

I spoke to my solicitor today, and it seems that debt is the result of a combination of a cock-up by mine, and some dishonesty by the seller's. My solicitor knew about this, and should have either taken the amount out of what was due to the seller, and paid it off, or gained a written undertaking to pay it from the seller, but neither was done. My solicitors have agreed to cover all of the debt except the maintenance/service charges properly incurred since I have lived there. They intend to sue the seller for not paying it off, as he should have done. So my debt has just been cut by 90%!

It took some while and some effort before I managed to get to the hospital. I didn't have to wait too long before being seen by the duty nurse, a Scottish guy of about 50 whose name I thought was McKeychain, but it was McEachern, who asked the same load of form questions I've been through a few times before. It took a while, but they seemed like sensible questions. Quite a long wait then to see the duty psychiatrist, a young Asian guy, who pretty much gave me what I said I wanted - an increase in my current antidepressant, up to the maximum outpatient dose, plus an extra drug that is some kind of tranquiliser, something to calm the anxiety and panic, and help me sleep at night. He is also writing to the central body to push for me to get an early appointment with a consultant psychiatrist for longer term help.

I feel a lot better: the financial scare seems to be sorted, the medical profession have finally been willing to help, and there is reason for optimism that the drugs will improve matters too, and I think I feel able to hold it together for at least some weeks while they start to take effect. I apologise for the perhaps scary tone at the start of this thread. It's not fair to impose such things on friends and acquaintances and strangers, and I think I should have resisted, but my thinking wasn't as clear as it should be right then - I was in a real panic. The affection and friendship and love that has been shown by many people here has really helped me, and I won't forget it.

Hurrah! Now that's instant gratification. Good to hear about the brighter outlook on the medical front.

The affection and friendship and love that has been shown by many people here has really helped me, and I won't forget it.

:-)

god bless national health care...

I'm glad your thinking was clear enough to post your your problems here. Hopefully the loving and positive responses everyone posted helped you over the hurdle of this difficult patch even by just a little bit.

It's not fair to impose such things on friends and acquaintances and strangers, and I think I should have resisted

As a total stranger, I'd like to say that's balls.

(BTW, ilx would be much poorer without you, hence affection and friendship and love from all sides.)

I regretted this thread, yesterday. I felt as if I might be in a terminal downspin, and I was making a lot of people I liked and even loved watch me. I started to imagine how horrible it would be to watch anyone decline to suicide, the more so the better you know and the more you care about the person. It felt virtually abusive. I had decided yesterday to stop saying anything along those lines, just to report the facts clearly without saying stuff about just how low I was getting. I am hugely relieved that I don't have to tread such a tightrope, as things are looking up.

The abusive side was less in what I had already posted than in where I thought I was heading. Should I have kept posting updates if I continued to decline badly? How far should that have gone? Clearly not "Right, I'm off to top myself now, have a good weekend everyone", which would unquestionably be cruel, but where do you stop? I wasn't sure, and I was thinking that I had set myself on a dangerous path by starting this thread when such an end seemed possible. I am already feeling better now (though many of my muscles still ache from the tension I've had), so I can say this stuff, knowing I'm no longer heading in that direction.

My advice is, don't listen to Dizzee Rascal.

Hey Jude, welcome to the fold. Please stay awhile.

Remember that.

Life aint luck it's momentum and it lives in your balls and your word.

Break neither.

One.

I really don't think you fully realise this, but you bring a great deal of joy into people's lives. Please remember that, always.

I was going to say that if you are desperate it is worth going down there (here anywhere) so it is good that you did. I was also going to say that staying alive in the world is a triumph. And you are of course incredibly brave and well-respected.

I also think it is very hard to get fired even if blatantly not competent (whereas you are highly skilled, just ill at the moment) so don't worry too much about that. Hope it all goes well

best wishes

Ride the wave.

Riding the wave got me out of more than a few sticky situations.

Martin, I'm glad to hear that things are getting better, at least with the financial panic over. Small steps, just keep concentrating on taking the small steps. Hope things continue to improve.

Already have responded, Anthony, both here and privately, but it would be nice if Martin could manage to come to Rob's FAP on Thursday. I know Brixton's a looooooooooong way from Tottenham, but if you feel up to it (and I KNOW it's an almighty "if"), it would be nice to see you (and Dr C as well if he's able to make it).

I almost feel silly writing anything now because so many people here have already said things better than I ever could. However I think it is important that you realise how much I want you to pull through this fog, and find yourself in a better place. I know very little about depression myself, but have seen friends struggle badly with it and succeed. Please accept that you WILL come through this, no matter how bleak it may seem. I also am amazed that the Martin writing here can be the same fantastic person I see socially. I realise you have said that when you do go out, you have crossed an important line and things are generally OK. In that sense, keep crossing that line, dammit!

And even more importantly, keep coming out on weekends for FAGOT fun! Hell, someone's got to help me give ken c a good thrashing!!

**it would be nice to see you (and Dr C as well if he's able to make it). **

Sadly i cannot - band rehearsal.

the link below:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0452281326/qid=1095191374/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/026-1377574-0454867
is to a book that really helped me when i was depressed. it's got a cheesy cover and a cheesy title, but it's pretty good. when i first read it i thought it was pointless (because everything was pointless) but as i worked through the exercises in it (mostly analysing your thinking type stuff) it turned out to be really useful. you could order it from amazon and it would come to your door, no going out :)

good luck with what you are going through. my sympathies on the death of your aunt. well done for what you've already done regarding getting the debt sorted out and for getting to the hospital.

best wishes,

angela