Qaballah - classic or dud

i think the kabbalah is interesting stuff, but i love occult history and anagrams, so i would. i'll continue to like it from a distance, though.

I just realized I've got pub friends giving me homework. This life I live is STRANGE.

Alright class, over the weekend I'm going to need you to go ahead and finish up those 12-packs.

Funny how people generally think the various spellings all mean the same thing, but this is not true, really. It goes like this: the Ha Qabalah is the highest wisdom taught. The Kabballah is a twisted version with fewer of the mysteries revealed and the Cabballah (where the word "cabal" comes from) implies even further twisting, intrigue and secret plots.

When studying the Qabalah, it's always a good idea to look for the "Q" spelling, for starters.

- The Mystical Qaballah - Dion Fortune
- A Garden of Pomegranates - Israel Regardie
- The Key To The True Kabballah (other editions spelled with a "Q") - Franz Bardon

The Qabalah is a very well-developed system for understanding consciousness and your place in the universe.

But it would take a shitload of time for me to give even a cursory explanation of one side of it. Dion Fortune's book is really the best place to start.

As an aside, the best overview of the occult is probably "The Tree of Life" by Israel Regardie.

From : http://www.halexandria.org/dward465.htm

"Gardner goes on to note that, “The philosophical cipher of the Table became known as Ha Qabala (the QBL tradition of light and knowledge) and it was said that he who possessed Qabala also possessed Ram, the highest expression of cosmic knowingness.”  

It might be worth reading that last sentence again, and letting the possibilities sink in.  

The idea of possessing Ram is common to the traditions of India, Tibet, Egypt, and the Druids of the Celtic world.  In all cases, it denotes a high degree of universal aptitude.  It implied that the holder of Ram was the masters of eternal understandings.  Allegedly, the Ha Qabala was passed from Abraham to his posterity.  

Strictly speaking, according to Gardner, Qabala (or the QBL, meaning “enlightenment”) should not be equated to Kabalah (or the KBL, meaning “confusion”) or worse yet, to the Kabbalah (or KBBL, implying even greater intrigue and twisting).  The latter, in fact, is related to the English work, cabal (which is defined as “a secret intrigue, a political clique or faction”).  Similarly, the Jewish mystical tradition, the cabala, cabbala, or kabbala, is defined as “mystic interpretation; any esoteric doctrine of occult lore”.  One can view the distinctions as two separate movements within mystical thought, one of which, the Ha Qabala, has been largely ignored in recent centuries. " 

I don't quite understand this, since all the English spellings are transliterations of the same Hebrew word (see : Hannukah, Chanukah, Chanuka, etc.). Unless I am wrong and you are saying that each spelling corresponds to a slightly different word based upon the same root?

(xpost, OK, I see from the latest post that it is the latter)

The Qaballah has a tree of life (obviously).

The Norse have the tree of life called the Ygdrassil.

The Bible has a tree of life.

The Koran has the Tooba Tree.

The Egyptian's Axis Munde stood on the threshold of life and death, connecting the worlds. The World Pillar was the centre of the universe.

The Mayas, it is Yaxche, whose branches support the heavens.

The Secret of the Golden Flower, which relates Taoist internal alchemy just as the Qabalah deals with internal alchemy, has a glyph strikingly similar to the Qabalist Tree of Life.

I believe the most comprehensive and useful Tree of Life is the one described by Western Occultists in the books above, but of course this interpretation wouldn't exist without the Ancient Rabbis.... but, THAT probably wouldn't exist without the Ancient Egyptian priests... I wonder how far back it goes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

For those interested in a purely academic overview of it all, I have heard that Gershom Scholem is the best one to reference.

everyone knows the real occultism action is with the Golden Dawn.

Maths would be a long way behind what it is today without the 15th century Kabbala scholars. We would be without a lot of great poetry and prose too.

Madonna's a recent development. We wouldn't dismiss the history of Indian classical music because we didn't like what George Harrison was doing with the sitar.

I wuv the bit in "Pi" where the Qaballah nutter is explaining Kabala for morons to the main character.

The problem really with Qabalah is that it's a bit like Alchemy - kind of interesting for historical reasons, but the idea that anyone now would take it seriously is laughable.

-- DV (dirtyvica...) (webmail), September 16th, 2004. (dirtyvicar)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

wow... I posted the 23rd message.
-- DV

Hahaha

Alchemy turned into chemistry of course. And some scientists and artists would say the alchemcal approach - heedless experimentation with physical materials in an exalted atmosphere - is the essence of creative inspiration.

...

Alchemy turned into chemistry of course.

Which is why we study and apply chemistry as a science, not alchemy. Unless you have your historical reasons for looking into alchemy.

There's another strand to alchemy - painting. Many artists (eg Pollock etc etc) considered themselves alchemists (all that experimental mixing of substances), but because some of the basic paint mixtures and compounds were discovered by alchemists. There's a very good book on this, 'What Painting Is' by James Elkins.

Eliphas Levi said it well in his backasswards way of ridiculing the Church--

"Let us state now for the edification of the vulgar, for the satisfaction of M. le Comte de Mirville, for the justification of the demonologist Bodin, for the greater glory of the Church, which persecuted Templars, burnt magicians, excommunicated Freemasons, etc.-let us state boldly and precisely that all inferior initiates of the occult science and profaners of the Great Arcanum, not only did in the past, but do now, and will ever, adore what is signified by this alarming symbol.(The Devil)...But the adorers of this sign do not consider, as we do, that it is a representation of the devil: on the contrary, for them it is that of the god Pan, the god of our modern schools of philosophy, the god of the Alexandrian theurgic school and of our own mystical Neoplatonists, the god of lamartine and Victor Cousin, the god of Spinoza and Plato, the god of the primitive Gnostic schools; the Christ also of the dissident priesthood.

U.S. singer Madonna (news - web sites), center left, attends a Kabbalah, or Jewish mysticism conference in Tel Aviv, Israel, Thursday Sept. 16, 2004. The pop star came to the Holy Land on a spiritual quest, including visits to the graves of revered rabbinical sages. Yet some were perplexed by Madonna'ss interest in the esoteric Jewish mysticism called cabala or Kabbalah, and rabbis said she had no business studying holy texts. . (AP Photo/ Kabbalah Center, David Rawlings, HO)

It is another thing entirely to follow such a system as a new age follower without any understanding of context, nuance, or subtext.

Show me evidence. All I can find on google is that some think that the kabbalah alludes to relativity (again, some really substantive information would be helpful).

Newton was an alchemist

Which means dick coming from a man who is best known and revered for his work in pure mathematics and (now) classical mechanics.

Kepler was an astrologer

I'm aware that Kepler held some beliefs we'd now call astrological, but the truth is that many men of science held ideas we now think are absurd. The difference is that as men of science, they were willing to concede their points as evidence pointed against it. Which is why we care about Kepler (or Newton or Einstein) today - he did some great science.

Generally speaking, alchemists don't get much credit in the history of science, except as a precursor to modern sciences. Admittedly, this was a gradual transition, but the number of significant alchemists prior to Boyle (perhaps the first chemist, as many claim) can probably be counted on one hand - and many of them are important for things which aren't, strictly, alchemical in basic (eg Paracelsus).

The point of all this is that alchemy did beget important fields of study, but perhaps the fact that these fields were massively more fecund, practical, and transparent was evidence of the fact that it was necessary for intellectual discourse to evolve beyond the games, puzzles, and secrecy of alchemical, masonic, and cultic hierarchies functioning on top of a mythology system.

That's all I mean.

The idea of Ether comes originally from early Alchemy. Einstien provides a very eloquent discription of the principal of Ether and it's connection to relativity, but actually Newton was not the originator of the theory, as Einstein suggests. In fact Pythagoras was the first Western figure credited with the specific mention of a fifth element which he titled 'Aether' (or 'Aither'). Pythagoras also borrowed from the teachings of the philosopher Empedocles who had first posited the existence of 4 basic elements which he corresponded with 4 of the Greek Gods (book 1.33). Earlier (~600bce) the philosopher Anaximander (Pythagorus' teacher) had theorised the existence of 4 basic qualities (Hot, Dry, Cold, Wet) which eventually were combined with Empedocles' elements by Aristotle1, thus forming what is now known as the "elemental humours".

In Einstein's most famous work he stated the relativity of space/time. With the EPR paper of 1935, he showed the plausibility of paradox and consequent acausal relationships- that sometimes two and two may indeed make five and a
quarter. These ideas, fundamental to Quantum Physics, completely annihilate our previous conceptions of space and time. Einstein's worldview gives birth to a seemingly supernatural climate where the underpinnings of the Qabalist's Tree of Life and even H.G. Wells' Time Machine are not only possible--but immutable physical law.

Now, we're inclined to say, 'ha, how crackpot - they did some silly work along with their serious work, those great figures in science'. I want to put forward the idea that in this mysical mucking around is the source of most, if not all, science - and one cannot get to good science without this mystical mucking around, not even now. The reason is that it brings to bear a certain kind of vision logic that is qualitatively different to the kind of thinking we engage in when, say, doing our taxes. The latter kind of thinking is incapable of conceiving radical, overarching concepts.

Re Einstein and Kabbalah - try googling the spelling 'kabbalah'. There's a fair bit of stuff there.

Here's a quote from Einstein that could have come from any number of Kabbalists:

"A human being is a part of the whole, called by us ‘Universe,’ a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security"… ~ Albert Einstein

That could easily have come from the mouth of Rabbi Yitzchak Luria himself. In fact it probably did. Einstein knew his Jewish mysticism, as did Freud.

With the EPR paper of 1935, he showed the plausibility of paradox and consequent acausal relationships- that sometimes two and two may indeed make five and a
quarter. These ideas, fundamental to Quantum Physics, completely annihilate our previous conceptions of space and time. Einstein's worldview gives birth to a seemingly supernatural climate where the underpinnings of the Qabalist's Tree of Life and even H.G. Wells' Time Machine are not only possible--but immutable physical law.

Metaphor != reality. Show me how the EPR paper demonstrates anything you're trying to say here.

I want to put forward the idea that in this mysical mucking around is the source of most, if not all, science - and one cannot get to good science without this mystical mucking around, not even now.

Most of the profound discoveries in science were purely accidental or unintended.

"A human being is a part of the whole, called by us ‘Universe,’ a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security"… ~ Albert Einstein

That could easily have come from the mouth of Rabbi Yitzchak Luria himself. In fact it probably did. Einstein knew his Jewish mysticism, as did Freud.

Proves nothing. I can say "we are all connected in some mysterious way," but I'd be one of billions to say so. Doesn't mean I know anything about Kabbalah. Furthermore, the idea predates all Kabbalistic literature and goes back at least to Plato's Republic, which is probably a more likely source of such an idea.

So...why aren't all the Kabbalists Plato worshippers?

Of the several objections to the prevailing interpretation of the quantum mechanics spearheaded by Einstein, the EPR paradox was the subtlest. It is at present considered to have been unsuccessful, the existence of hidden variables having been refuted experimentally and the EPR "paradox" taken to be fully resolved within the current interpretation of the theory. The belief that entanglement is a real phenomenon has led to a radical shift in thinking about 'what is reality' and what is a 'state of a physical system'.

The ability to communicate or travel faster-than-light is a popular topic in science fiction. Particles that travel faster than light, dubbed tachyons, have been proposed by particle physicists but have yet to be observed. Several physicist like Joao Magueijo, John Moffat have proposed that, in the past, light travelled much faster than the current speed of light. This theory is called VSL (varying speed of light), and it has the ability to explain most of the cosmological puzzles and is a rival of the inflation model of the universe.

Again, please try to understand the science before you summarize it improperly.

I'm aware that Kepler held some beliefs we'd now call astrological, but the truth is that many men of science held ideas we now think are absurd.

I disagree ... their alchemy and astrology interests were no mere hobbies. It took Newton a couple of years to invent calculus. He spent the next 20 years as an alchemist and theologist. It was a major portion of his life, and even though we don't care about that work on a scientific level, it would be false to assume that it didn't have a major impact on the thinking of the man himself.

Because their scientific work turned out to be correct in the end, we typically focus on their successes only and ignore all of their missteps and dalliances. So we remember Kepler's laws because they are correct, but tend to ignore the decades he spent trying to build solar system models out of glass spheres (because he was unable, for the longest time, to admit to himself that the astronomical data he observed could possibly contradict his "music of the perfect spheres" intuition).

In summary, scouring their scientific work is likely not the best place to look for references to their spirituality. If their science was informed by their spirituality, then modern formulations of their scientific work has probably purged all reference to it.

(xpost)

I know people have come up with rationalizations for these experiments, but those explanations don't account for perceived nonlocality several miles apart...

QUANTUM PHOTON ENTANGLEMENT AT A DISTANCE OF SEVEN MILES
Whether or not the quantum mechanical behavior of elementary
particles is called mysterious depends, more or less, on the
attitude one has. If there is a demand that the behavior of these
particles be explainable with the logistic structure of human
language, then some aspects of their behavior seem mysterious
indeed. On the other hand, if there is a willingness to admit
that the logical structure of human language may not at present
be isomorphic with the logical structure of the laws that govern
the behavior of these particles, then it is probably best to put
off notions of mysteries and take the behavior for what it is.
This week there was announced to the popular press, before
publication, the results of a twin-photon experiment in
Switzerland. Nicolas Gisin et al (University of Geneva, CH)
reported that a pair of twin photons split and sent along two
diverging paths, when arriving at terminals seven miles apart,
exhibit the phenomenon of quantum "entanglement". The gist of it
is that the detection of one of the photons effectively causes
the collapse of the spectrum of its wave-function solutions to a
single solution, and this collapse instantaneously causes the
collapse of the possible quantum states of the other photon, in
this case seven miles away. The melodramatic notion (purveyed by
the press) is that information has somehow travelled from one
photon to the other at a speed greater than the speed of light,
with the result that great canons of thought are thereby
destroyed. But perhaps the more prosaic reality is that any
attempt to describe non-classical events with language based on
classical laws and perceptions cannot succeed.
-----------
New York Times 1997 22 Jul

from scienceweek.com (scroll down to article #6)

What's the root thought or motive behind Kabbalah, do you think?

Note: What I have been saying about the speed of light is better worded here: Quantum nonlocality does not prove that "signals" travel "faster than light." Rather, it shows that at a deep level of reality the speed of light as a limiting factor is irrelevant because phenomena are instantaneously connected regardless of distance.

"ah, it's probably quadratic"

which basically means i've already given up and moved on to the next crossword clue/quiz question/college project/exam question

A great reason would be for large-scale analysis rather than small-scale. Was it Newton who said "as below, so above?" The hermeticists were always saying "As above, so below. As below, so above. As within, so without. As without, so within." There could be gigantic leaps in understanding if we arrived at a unified field theory. The kind of understanding that could change the world (perhaps).

If every "particle" is in communication with every other "particle," could the phenomenon of quantum nonlocality help account in some way for the self-organizing, recurrent patterns of form that appear everywhere in the universe? Could such a theory contribute to our understanding of morphogenesis on a cosmological level?

The Greek philosopher Plotinus believed that the metaphysical principle of Mind is nonlocal, and explained that, because it is not limited by time and space, it can be present everywhere. Similarly, Karl Pribram has demonstrated that memory is not localized in specific parts of the brain. Does quantum nonlocality support -- or help us understand -- noetic theories of the universe? Is the underlying structure of the universe essentially noetic in nature?

What is the nature of the universal "laws of physics," which seem to be the same everywhere. Do the laws of physics presuppose some type of nonlocality? Does the very concept of "the universe" as one thing imply a form of cosmological holism and nonlocality?

No, you don't. It's very simple - there could've been any number of combinations of constants. It's just...we wouldn't know about it b/c we wouldn't be here. There's nothing that predestined human life to happen.

Why are humans the dominant species on Earth? Because an asteriod wiped out the dinosaurs a couple dozen million years ago. Pure luck.

Why am I alive? Consider the ratio of sperm that fertilize eggs to sperm that don't. HUGE numbers. Pure luck.

Nothing says that I, we, or even the Earth has to be here.

"Why am I alive? Consider the ratio of sperm that fertilize eggs to sperm that don't. HUGE numbers. Pure luck"

Yes, but it was pretty likely that someone would be here from those sperm and that egg, or a later ejaculation. So it may as well be you.

Nothing predestined us to be here? Well, DNA sure as hell did. The forces of nature sure as hell did.

To Colin : Einstein's theories state that the speed of light is constant. Period. Girolamo's post up above mentioned newer theories that claim that the speed of light may have changed over time. Of course, if that changed, then perhaps a lot of other constants are actually not constant either. Then the evolution of the universe is completely open to question. We get into the Anthropic Principle arguments again.

Also, these experiments where the speed of light was observed to be faster than "c" (= 3*10^8 m/s). As described in Girolamo's posts, the group velocity may be faster than "c" (which would appear to violate Einstein's theories) but in fact, no *information* can travel faster than "c" (which would not violate Einstein's theories). These sorts of experiments are ongoing.

(xposts)

Take a deck of cards and throw them in the air. It's highly unlikely they'll ever land like that ever again. But everytime you throw them, it's just gravity, momentum, and air currents controlling that. Maybe one time in a billion you'll throw them in the air and they'll land in a perfectly ordered deck of cards. That's not divine or special. It's just improbable.

Just setting aside the technical minutiae of modern physics, to which I can't contribute anyway, would it be fair to say that Kaballah is an attempt to derange, nonpluss and stymie the deductive mind (through deconstruction of the meaning of concepts into letter and number permutations with magical coincidental significance) so that unconscious global thinking can come into play?

You only get to throw the cards once.

Evidence?

So if the constants were slightly different, then life as we know it would not exist. But this does not exclude the formation of different kinds of cells, animals, planets, etc., the likes of which we will never understand, governed by physical laws slightly different from the ones that we know.

You could say just as much about my parents. ;)

(xpost Kev) Why is that so implausible? Not necessasrily infinite, though. Although...maybe. Obviously no one knows.

(xpost Fez) Life comes from life! Shit, wonderful! Let's all start talking in TAUTOLOGIES!

If you must know, more reading...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life

(xpost Barry) Exactly.

My personal opinion is that ALL religions are attempts to do this. If all the pertinent answers lie with a supreme being (or beings) then there's no need to bother with stuff like galaxy formation.

Recent publications (2004) by Stephen Hawking suggest that our universe is much less 'special' than the proponents of the anthropic principle claim it is. According to Hawking, there is a 98% chance that a universe of a type as ours will come from a Big Bang. Further, using the basic wavefunction of the universe as basis, Hawking's equations indicate that such a universe can come into existence without relation to anything prior to it, meaning that it could come out of nothing. In 2004, these publications and the theories in them are still subject to scientific debate.

So maybe not as big of a deal as expected...

Fez, define the difference between a living thing and a "dead" thing. Living things are made out of a "dead" things. It's just a temporary disequilibrium. All that life is, technically, can be considered a macromolecular equivalent of a computer worm or virus. We're just DNA photocopiers.

Kabbalah - Dud

x-post, yeah lots of different numbers have emerged as to the likelyhood, and the physicists they made us when I was at uni were mostly unhappy with Hawkings' evaluation. I did philosphy so I wouldn't have to deal with maths or physics, what do I get? Logic and string theory.

If so, is it true to say that there is some value to the creation of hypotheses, and, by extension, deductive logic, from systematising a method that creates hypotheses, even if they are speculative?

Is it also true to say that, as deduction depends upon hypotheses, there can be no such deductive working through without an hypothesis?

If all this is true, does Kaballah and other psychological methods stimulate the creation of hypotheses? And need it have anything to do with religion or deities?

Can one be an atheist and yet still a Kabbalist?

Even if one is not an atheist, can one reasonably instigate in one's method all kinds of crewative, fanciful and chaotic procedures, with the sole purpose of stimulating one's imagination - which may the be put to use in theservice of art and science?

Feel free to answer any or all of these questions. Or tell me to shut up. Girolamo, that crack about your parents was hilarious.

i think it was mick hucknall said that, but fucked if i know why.

Does Sadness cause Pleasure? Is Pleasure a Passion? Does it differ from Joy? Is Movement a Cause of Pleasure? Is Knowledge a Cause of Love? Is Love a Passion? Is Love Conducive to Action? Is Love Hurtful to the Lover? Is Love in the Concupiscible Power? Is Dodgeball in the Concupiscible Power?

That is all.

"Crossposted to Death in the Future Head"

Yeah, I know. Well, it's after 6 in the morning here, so I should get some sleep. I enjoyed the discussion though.

no. no. yes. not necessarily. no. no. no. often. concupiscible? concupiscible?

hope that helps :p

- the New York Times article I posted "QUANTUM PHOTON ENTANGLEMENT AT A DISTANCE OF SEVEN MILES"

- my explanation about Quantum Nonlocality (What I have been saying about the speed of light is better worded here: Quantum nonlocality does not prove that "signals" travel "faster than light." Rather, it shows that at a deep level of reality the speed of light as a limiting factor is irrelevant because phenomena are instantaneously connected regardless of distance)

- My response to your charge against predestiny? ("Nothing predestined us to be here? Well, DNA sure as hell did. The forces of nature sure as hell did.")

I don't believe any of these statements got responses from you.

Is fire dead or not, btw?

Shouldn't you be finishing up that solo album, Mr. Corgan?

Not science.

predestiny

Quantum probabilities, but no destinies.

All is powered by firebolt, redfez. Or so Heraclitus tells us. So, if he's correct, fire is not dead.

And how about that fire? Wikipedia tells me it's dead, so it must be true!

So you contend that fire is alive? You do understand that it's an intermediate reaction stage of oxidation, yes?

Where's DV anyway? DV started this whole mess.

how many of the standard factors indicating life are there?

excretion, (arguably) mmm help me out here someone.

reproduction? again arguably.

what were the others?

People don't like ambiguity. They don't like the idea that maybe things are kinda random, unimportant, and beyond conception.

These people need to get over it and go about their lives, and stop looking for meaning. There is only meaning for you in what you choose to make meaningful for yourself. But you cannot truly create someone else's personal meaning. So do whatever you need to do for yourself, and let everyone else do the same. If you need to believe in God, Kabbalah, numbers, interconnectivity, whatever - FINE! - go do it, man. Just let everyone else have their share of peace and quiet to come to their own meaning, not an outsider's one.

Hehe, that should be a lyric, music mole. Except "anyway" doesn't rhyme with "redfez," but maybe that's cool.

For the record, I don't believe in "God" (I can get behind the term "divine providence," though). And I think the Qabalah is oh so classic more and more each day.

The music mole made good points earlier:

"A human being is a part of the whole, called by us ‘Universe,’ a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security"… ~ Albert Einstein

and

It's been pointed out to me that if the voices and visions deconstruct the image of God, you're on your way to becoming a mystical atheist - an intuitionist of sorts. Don't forget, the jews were commanded not to make an image of God. This would tend to deconstruct the idea of visions and voices emanating from a supernal motive force or being.

...and Girolamo, NO I don't contend that fire is alive. You asked me for a definition of "dead."

-- Girolamo Savonarola (gsa...), September 17th, 2004.

You would make a fine Qabalist, then! And that's no joke, either. Anyone who likes to see how things work, but feels content with ambiguity and doubt has a great future in the Qabala.

As Aleister Crowley said, "I slept with Faith, and found a corpse in my arms on awaking; I drank and danced all night with Doubt, and found her a virgin in the morning."

And Einstein talking philosophy is about as definitive as Jewel writing poetry. So I'm not exactly captivated by his non physical observations. Just like I don't give a damn what the Pope has to say about Grand Unified Theory.

"Is it true to say that deductions must follow from hypotheses?"

Yes.

"If so, is it true to say that there is some value to the creation of hypotheses, and, by extension, deductive logic, from systematising a method that creates hypotheses, even if they are speculative?"

Yes, if by 'value' you mean 'the generation of new forms, theories and concepts'.

"Is it also true to say that, as deduction depends upon hypotheses, there can be no such deductive working through without an hypothesis?"

Well duuuh.

"If all this is true, does Kaballah and other psychological methods stimulate the creation of hypotheses?"

No doubt that it does: if one is creative with Kabbalah, inventing one's own methods and permutations to go with the traditional ones, rather than following the old methods and rituals in a slavish fashion. Kaballah is alive, and all creative additions are like a Midrash.

"And need it have anything to do with religion or deities?"

Nope. One need only see and hear.

"Can one be an atheist and yet still a Kabbalist?"

Hell yes. But better still, be neither an atheist nor a theist, nor neither, nor both.

"Even if one is not an atheist, can one reasonably instigate in one's method all kinds of creative, fanciful and chaotic procedures, with the sole purpose of stimulating one's imagination - which may the be put to use in the service of art and science?"

The answer is yes.

And Einstein talking philosophy is about as definitive as Jewel writing poetry.

I gotta disagree GS. He makes a lot of sense to me. As does Whitehead, Wittgenstein and Bohr, even though I understand nothing of their math. I think if we want to claim that visionary scientists and mathematicians are chatting fart on the one hand, and sense on the other, we need to pick through our reasoning very carefully. What exactly do you find fault with in Einstein's philosophical reasoning?

You say consciousness is a process, but life you're not sure about. Whether a worm is conscious or not, it's physical state of "macromolecular dependency" is the process we refer to as "life".

It's just interesting that you agree consciousness and fire are processes more readily than you will describe Life as a process because that describes alchemy so perfectly. The soul or spirit is often referred to as "the flame," but that doesn't really mean anything. Just kind of a weird almost full-circle discussion (but not really).

Where does consciousness come from? Do you believe it is the result of chemical reactions in the brain? Do you believe memory is inherited?

I didn't mean to sound angry before, Girolamo. I understand your points of view. I do think the future of understanding is in Nonlocality, but that doesn't mean I am correct. I just wish you didn't lump all nonscientific perspectives in that "God" category.

music mole, you have a way with words. I've never heard the expression "chatting fart" before, but I love it.

music mole, you sound like the kind of fella or lady (not sure) that would be fun to drink with, since you say you have been. G'night, all.

well obviously, because doing alchemy properly allows you to turn base metals into gold AND live forever - no laughing matter at all.

What's laughable is your description, which shows your general lack of comprehension of the subject.

Which alchemy are you referring to, anyway? Egyptian, Hermetic, Neoplatonic, Eastern?

Transmutation of lead into gold isn't just theoretically possible - it has been achieved! There are reports that Glenn Seaborg, 1951 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, succeeded in transmuting a minute quantity of lead (possibly en route from bismuth, in 1980) into gold.

There is an earlier report (1972) in which Soviet physicists at a nuclear research facility near Lake Baikal in Siberia accidentally discovered a reaction for turning lead into gold when they found the lead shielding of an experimental reactor had changed to gold.

Today particle accelerators routinely transmute elements. A charged particle is accelerated using electrical and/or magnetic fields. In a linear accelerator, the charged particles drift through a series of charged tubes separated by gaps. Every time the particle emerges between gaps, it is accelerated by the potential difference between adjacent segments. In a circular accelerator, magnetic fields accelerate particles moving in circular paths. In either case, the accelerated particle impacts a target material, potentially knocking free protons or neutrons and making a new element or isotope. Nuclear reactors also may used for creating elements, although the conditions are less controlled.

In nature, new elements are created by adding protons and neutrons to hydrogen atoms within the nuclear reactor of a star, producing increasingly heavier elements, up to iron (atomic number 26). This process is called nucleosynthesis. Elements heavier than iron are formed in the stellar explosion of a supernova. In a supernova gold may be made into lead, but not the other way around.

While it may never be commonplace to transmute lead into gold, it is practical to obtain gold from lead ores. The minerals galena (lead sulfide, PbS), cerussite (lead carbonate, PbCO3), and anglesite (lead sulfate, PbSO4) often contain zinc, gold, silver, and other metals. Once the ore has been pulverized, chemical techniques are sufficient to separate the gold from the lead. The result is almost alchemy...almost.

There is some dispute about whether alechemy is meant to be an internal/transformative exercise or an external/transmutative one. Perhaps thats why it ended up (arguably) forking into the two separate streams of psychoanalysis and chemistry.

What were alchemists actually doing however? They were mucking around with dangerous materials and substances, mixing them, trying to create results of spiritual significance. It was an external process to drive, through symbols, an internal transformation to enlightenment of some kind. So, it is not hard to see how anyone working alone, experimenting with, and mixing, highly unstable raw materials in a creative profession or science could find themselves relating to the alchemists.

Israel Regardie spent most of his life believing there was no point to external alchemy. Somewhere in midlife, he was convinced and began mucking around only to sear his lungs in an unfortunate lab accident. So, his external alchemical career was very brief, yet he was the man most responsible for bringing the occult so far out into the light of modern day.

Qaballistic Reinterpretation of Biblical Scripture by Jeff Love (A Rabbi will not agree with this, but a Qaballist has no problem with it.)

Part 1: ALLEGORICAL

The allegorical level of the Bible is a hidden description of a step by step process of personal spiritual evolution. The whole allegorical story of the Bible is the development from Adam to Christ of each individual human being. Adam is the prototype Man, the animal nautre. Christ is the God-Man, the divine nature. The Bible is a detailed story of that growth, its pitfalls, the directions it takes, and the guidance needed when taking the journey.

All names in the Bible, especially those of the Old Testament, are codified personal names representing stages of consciousness. All the places in the Bible are conditions under which these stages of consciousness exist. These states and conditions of consciousness refer to stages that each individual human being goes through in his or her personal growth.

The Bible actually states that there is allegory in it. Paul says: "For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a freed woman. He who was of the slave was born after the flesh. He of the free woman was by promise. These things are an allegory, for these are the two covenants, one from Mt. Sinai and one from Jerusalem." (Galatians 4.22-4)

Let us see, then what the allegory of Abraham and his two sons might also be saying: Abraham means the state of faith or the beginning of spiritual growth; Sarah, the name of the free woman indicates the state of bringing forth divine consciousness; Hagar, the slave woman, means consciousness of the material world or the facade of the personality; Sarah gives birth to Isaac which means the joyous dawning of divine consciousness while Hagar gives birth to Ishmael which is the state of listening inattentively; Sinai refers to some moral code or law enforced on an individual from the outside while Jerusalem, a contraction of two Hebrew words — yara, which means outward flow, and shalom, which means peace and harmony — indicates a natural out-flowing of a morality which comes from inner harmony.

By introducing the allegorical meanings, we can see what Paul was probably saying: If you place all your faith in the facade of your materially oriented personality you will attain only a limited awareness, one which requires a moral code to prevent you from being too destructive. If, however, you invest your faith in the bringing forth of your divine nature, you will expreience a joyous dawning of divine consciousness within you, one that requires no outside moral code, since you will be in harmony with the universe.

Part 2: TAROT

The Cryptic level of the Bible is the secret code or cipher that is hidden within the twenty-two letters of the Hebrew alphabet. The Hebrew alphabet is one in which every letter is also a word. Each letter is also a number and has associated with it an archetypal idea. The first letter, aleph, is an outpouring of breath. It has no sound of its own except when associated with a vowel sound. Aleph itself is the expiration or expression referred to in the Bible as The Word (of God). Aleph corresponds to A in English, is numerically 1, and, as a word, means "ox". The ideas associated with aleph are power or strength, insemination or initiation of the creative power.

The second letter, bayt, is the number 2 and means "house." The idea associated with bayt is that which goes on within (us).

Ghimel is the third letter, numerically 3, meaning "camel." The idea behind ghimel is transition or movement.

Dallet equals 4 and means door. It indicates egress or ingress, or the crossing of a threshold or barrier.

It would take a tremendous number of words to describe fully the archetypal ideas behind each letter. These words would tend to be interpreted differently in various cultures and at various times. To preserve their essential meaning, the archetypal ideas contained in the Hebrew letters are presented in pictorial form in the Tarot, using universally understood symbology. The major arcana of the Tarot deck consists of twenty-two picture cards. It is in these that the archetypal ideas are to be found.

There are over three hundred versions of the classical Tarot. Since all decks are slightly different and give different Hebrew letter correspondences, I should mention we are using the Tarot Deck published by the Buidlers of The Adytum and the meanings given in Paul Foster Case's Book of Tokens.

The following is an example of how the Tarot is substituted for the corresponding Hebrew letters to expose a greater understanding of their meaning. (The cards give so much intuitive understanding that any attempt to put their total significance in words is to lose their essential message. It is like describing any picture; what is derived from the picture is dependent on the mood and insight of the observer and the depth of his understanding of what he sees.)

Abram is the name of the patriarch of the Jewish people. The literal translation of Abram is "Mighty Father." The cryptic significance of Abram is found by laying down, side by side, the four Tarot cards which represent the ideas contained in the four Hebrew letters which spell the name. Anyone who tries this will find that these pictures contain a tremendous amount of information. Within our context here, their message can be stated briefly as "the initiation of the mighty power within (each of us)." The word which best expresses the state of consciousness meant by the name Abram is faith.

Later on in the BIble, God changes Abram's name by adding a fifth letter, H, to his name making it Abraham. The literal translation of Abraham is "Father of a multitude of things (within ourselves)." The cryptic significance is found by placing the Tarot card for the Hebrew H in the middle of the four cards representing Abram. The additional card changes the meaning of the state of consciousness called Abram. Abraham now means "the realization of the expression of the mighty power within (each of us)". In short, what was once pure faith is now a faith that we are conscious of and can, therefore, use.

Other cryptic meanings are derived from the numerical correspondences. The following is an example.

Part 3: NUMERICAL CORRESPONDENCES

In Genesis, "Abram went in search for Lot (who had been captured by the Edomite kings) and took with him three hundred and eighteen servants born in his own household." We might ask how Abram, having arrived poor in Canaan, a little over a year before, was able to get to the point of having three hundred and eighteen servants born in his own household. Wherever scripture is translated into nonsense, you can be sure that, there, you will find a message in code.

Abram, as we have suggested, means faith. Lot, decoded means "that which is hidden". So, when in faith you go in search for that which is hidden you are to take three hundred and eighteen servants from your own household (house indicating that which is within). The key to understanding this statement is found in the number 318. Since each Hebrew letter is also a number, we simply substitute the corresponding letters for the number: 300=sheen; 10=yod; 8=chayt; the word that they spell is the verb "to meditate." The statement simply means that if you want to find what is hidden, meditate.

In the Book of Revelation, chapter 14, we find, "A lamb stood on Mt. Zion and with him one hundred and forty four thousand, having his father's name written in their foreheads... and they sung a new song and no man could learn that song but the one hundred and forty four thousand which were redeemed from this earth."

The key to the above statement is in the number 144,000. 100=qof, which means the back of the head; the medulla oblongata (in the back of the head) is the source of material, or physical, awareness. 40=mem, which means water or spirit. 4=dallet, indicating the crossing of a threshold. 1,000 means association or advancement. The Biblical phrase then can be read as follows: "Those who succeed in advancing their consciousness from the state of material awareness (back of the head) to the forehead (the location of the third eye or ajna chakra which, when opened, gives spiritual awareness) are the ones who shall redeem themselves (gain the freedom of their divine nature).

That's what I think, although it is possible that the writers wrote these texts with the Qaballa in mind, which is exactly what the above author believes, I would guess. But, that was not the point I was illustrating, which is simply that Qaballists are free to take it as far as they want-- unlike Kaballists.

Now without denying that there are philosophical problems to be addressed in Scientific Method, it's perfectly obvious that said method has changed the world in millions of ways and Alchemy (except in its accidental contributions to Chemistry), Kaballa or Qaballa haven't. You don't even have to claim that there is no substance to those beliefs to raise the question of what practical use forms of knowledge that are at best esoteric and personal can be.

Which brings me to my next point. Besides alchemy/chemistry, it actually also made contributions to psychology and rational thought, although I'm not sure everyone is aware of it.

I have problems with the word meditation for similar reasons to these - it's actually become almost a deterrent from the act of thinking deeply, which is easy and accessible to everybody and doesn't require yoga-stylee flexibility or comic repetition of mantras. I say this as somebody with a lot of respect for Taoism and Zen, but no respect for the urge to hide knowledge in coded form. I'm not saying all ideas can be made simple, but I do think knowledge hoarded is wasted.

You're probably right about this, but it does help me think deeply afterward... at least, I think it does...

I think it's time for a new board, people!

xpost:
But that's been done already, that's yesterdays papers. On another thread that I won't tell you the name of, lest you infect that one as well.

Well of course.