Is ADHD a real disorder?

Incredible how an alternative to ADHD drugs is reducing sugar intake. GEE I WONDER WHY.

Maybe its because I'm missing the "hyper" part.

The issue is the fact that way too many GPs are diagnosing it in kids that don't have it. It gives the genuine condition a bad name.

Nowell, if you're concerned about it, should you see a psychologist [rather than a GP or psychiatrist]? They can help you without drugs, and can most likely shed light on what you're going through.

Real = Crabs

xpost: Chronic fatigue is sooo not fake.

OTM, I have an uncle who's like this. It led to his divorce.

Also: yes ADD is real, it has to do with certain neural pathways not being connected or something. I know that Ritalin does have a calming effect on me so that I concentrate more, although I don't have the "hyperactive" variant thank God. And I don't eat much sugar/junk food.

also makes me want to make posts saying "see i'm not just lazy and undisciplined, it's SCIENCE". (i was serious about that stuff though. repeatable studies scientific consensus yadda yadda.)

x-post

I used to run 5 miles a day. I biked a 100k once. I was working two jobs, keeping the second mostly because it was fun. And because it was at a brewery, so I got free beer. I was very active. I was about to get a big promotion at my computer job. ...And then I got a virus, and it (or its hormonal/neurological/immunological aftermath) pretty much derailed my life.

So I'd just like to second Trayce's "fuck you", and heartily.

There's lots of health conditions that aren't well understood. Lots of people tend to be judgemental assholes about them. Before the docs had medical evidence for Multiple Sclerosis, they called it "hysterical paralysis". Because naturally if they can't understand an illness, it's all in your head or you're just lazy. That was probably 50 years ago or more, but people's tendency to be closed minded bastards is still going strong.

that's why i never used the term, "therapist", as i considered it too loaded.

instead, i used "talky pshrink" and "drug-pushing pshrink."

also, using street drug-terms to refer to your meds makes them easier to handle.

That's science for you.

I was once fairly energetic, as per the poster above, but I got glandular fever many years ago, since which time, I am a lot less energetic, and tend to tire quickly and easily.

guilty as charged
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/kenjuggle/vogue.jpg

Tell me more about *adult* ADHD.

I just did a checklist thingy and the checklist says I might have it, but I always doubt the results of these things (if you unconsciously want to prove to yourself that you do have a disorder, you'll tick the numbers up a bit higher and vice versa).

I am a habitually messy, disorganized person, and I am easily distracted. I have trouble finishing projects, I procrastinate heavily, make tasks take way longer than they need to, and often feel "overwhelmed by the basic tasks of daily life" and all that.

uh oh... that also sounds like me. but can't these things be attributed just to one's basic personality type, rather than a 'disorder'?

A 'disorder' is not an illness - it's not a construct that can either 'exist' or not. So while I'm sure no-one's doubting the myriad symptoms of what is known as ADD/ADHD are real, the contention is whether it's beneficial, to anyone, to treat it as a mental illness (DSM-IV).

ADD/ADHD cannot exist clinically without empirical biological / neurological evidence to support its existence (see: schizophrenia etc), which is why the DSM is quick to present it as a disorder (see: passive agressive syndrome (DSM-III), female sexual dysfunction etc.)

Problem-focussed checklists (DSM, internet) are never, ever a good way to help somebody.

Frankly, the dark hand of big pharma has always hovered over diagnosis of this kind. And at the end of day, is actually it useful? Label kids, drug'em up etc. God I sound like Tom Cruise.

I sort of agree, but hardly a kid at 27.

yeah, it worries me that so many parents seem so quick to drug their kids up, rather than dealing with their behaviour from a psychological angle. i'm certainly not opposed to chemical intervention, i just think that huey's right about the financial motivations behind some of the over-prescribing that seems to be going on. drugs should be a last resort, not a quick fix.

hurting, are you considering seeing a doctor/psychologist about this stuff?

Drug me drug me drug me drug me
Drug me with natural vitamin c
Drug me with pharmaceutical speed
Drug me with your sleeping pills
Drug me with your crossword puzzles
Drug me with your magazines
Drug me with your fuck machines
With a fountain of fads
More rock and roll ads
Drug me drug me drug me me me

ADHD, which is characterized by hyperactivity, disorganization, impulsivity, emotionality, unstable personality, fidgetiness, and inability to relax (2,3), has been reported to be present in 17 percent to 40 percent of various cocaine-dependent populations (1,2,4,5). Less well known is the fact that cocaine modifies these symptoms, thus making it more difficult to correctly diagnose such patients. We have reported that one reliable indicator of the presence of ADHD among adult cocaine-dependent subjects is the history of a "paradoxical" reaction to cocaine use (1). A carefully obtained clinical history confirms that despite eventual deterioration as cocaine dependence develops, patients with ADHD initially derive symptomatic improvement from the use of cocaine and may resort to this readily available stimulant for self-medication (1,6).

Instead of the excitation (4) and exacerbation of psychiatric symptoms (7) observed in cocaine-using populations without ADHD, cocaine induces a constellation of beneficial effects in the ADHD population; they include relaxation, anxiolysis, mood stabilization, improved focus and ability to think, and increased capacity to engage in productive activity, all in the relative absence of a euphoric response (1,4). Whether some individuals with ADHD could continue to use cocaine for symptomatic relief without actually abusing it has not been investigated, although it appears unlikely.

^^^^

V V TRUE

ahhhh... i always thought it was weird that ritalin had a calming effect on ADHD/ADD ppl, but a complete speed effect on me and my friends when we tried it years ago (damn, that was an awesome night).

XPOST: Big kids = bigger market </cynicism>

I am a habitually messy, disorganized person, and I am easily distracted. I have trouble finishing projects, I procrastinate heavily, make tasks take way longer than they need to, and often feel "overwhelmed by the basic tasks of daily life" and all that.

This is precisely what I mean - we're taught to focus on 'negative' aspects of our personality as though they're somehow bad. We've been sold the idea that there's a 'norm' we must all subscribe to - that's the very essence of psychiatry, for example.

Why is procrastination bad? Or being mildly disorganised? If you're overwhelmed, why isn't that a problem with your situation / environment, rather than a problem with you? What about looking for solution-focussed (i.e. positive) elements to those areas that you're struggling with?

Others may disagree, but please don't go down the psychiatric route. You'll only end up making that diagnosis / label part of your personality, as it were - and therefore another negative aspect. It's also a very vicious cycle to get out of (see: people disagnosed with depression, borderline personality disorder etc).

A decent psychologist (i.e. non-medical model, no conflicts of interest etc) should be able to help you gain some perspective on those aspects you're feeling uncomfortable with.

xpost...so what you're saying is that hurting 2 should do some coke so he can self-diagnose? ;)

This is precisely what I mean - we're taught to focus on 'negative' aspects of our personality as though they're somehow bad. We've been sold the idea that there's a 'norm' we must all subscribe to - that's the very essence of psychiatry, for example. Why is procrastination bad? Or being mildly disorganised? If you're overwhelmed, why isn't that a problem with your situation / environment, rather than a problem with you? What about looking for solution-focussed (i.e. positive) elements to those areas that you're struggling with?

Sorry, but this is bullshit. First of all, I am seeing a very good psychoanalyst who generally disfavors medication. He is helping me with a lot of things, but not with these particular problems. These problems have held me back in every area of my life, including wreaking havoc on my college transcript. And in fact I've seen therapists for much of the last 10 years, and in spite of great progress in my self-confidence and romantic life, I've made only marginal progress in this.

Procrastination and disorganization are real problems. They can lead to career and marriage failure, depression, feelings of wasted potential and missed opportunities. Fuck, if I wanted to of course I could "change my environment" instead - I could go live on some commune or something. But that isn't what I want.

I have the Adult ADD. It sucks.

Do you take meds?

if I wanted to of course I could "change my environment" instead. I could go live on some commune or something

You have utterly missed my point, but congratulations on calling bullshit.

And in fact I've seen therapists for much of the last 10 years

What I actually recommended was a decent psychologist - i.e. not a cash-cow 'therapist' who charges money for you talk shit about yourself.

They were "decent psychologists," dude. Which is exactly why I call bullshit - you don't know me at all, you're just pushing your agenda

I MEAN DO YOU HONESTLY FUCKING THINK I'VE NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS STUFF BEFORE LIKE DO YOU THINK IT'S NEVER OCCURRED TO ANYONE BUT YOU THAT BEHAVIORAL DISORDERS ARE "CONSTRUCTS" YOU BULLSHIT COLLEGE FUCK? FUCK OFF!

Mate, if you look at the tone of what I originally wrote you'll see I was just giving explaining, in friendly terms, my standpoint based my own hellish experiences. It certainly wasn't aimed at you, although I obviously made a mistake quoting something you wrote. Apologies.

Uh, yeah, I apologize for that as well. It's just that I've been struggling with these problems for much of my life. I've tried medication-free approaches and I've tried avoiding the labeling of any disorder. In fact I've never gone on any medication or deliberately gone for any kind of disorder evaluation. I'm aware of all of the philosophical and epistemological problems of psychiatric diagnosis.

But I also know that there are certain people who clearly have a serious problem they cannot entirely control. In extreme cases this sometimes leads to suicide. I knew a guy whose parents ignored his psychiatrist's severe bipolar diagnosis and he wound up firing a gun into traffic from his car and driving into a bus. I'm not expecting to drive into any buses, but I do think *disorders* can be quite real at the same time as being constructs.

hurting 2, i don't think huey was pushing any agenda except trying to offer some kind of concerned advice - which is kinda what you were asking for, right?

when i offered up the suggestion that these things are just aspects of 'personality types' i didn't mean to marginalise how shitty it must be for you to be going through all this. obviously, you explained your situation in more detail in later posts, so now i can see that you really feel these symptoms (or whatever the word for it is) have the potential to fuck up your life if you don't sort them out.

Yeah, exactly, I'm obviously not saying that the 'disorders' and their associated symptoms - paranoia, voices, depression, tiredness, intrusive thoughts etc - are not real in any way. All I'm saying is that it's often unhelpful to diagnose, label and prescribe using the current medical model, and I believe it's important that people - not you H2 - are aware of this when going to the GP, having a few symptoms ticked in a box, and being given a 'scrip for some ineffectual drug. I have no idea how the system works in the US - I'm talking from a UK / Australia perspective.

95% of the people being treated for clinical depression in the UK would benefit from some sort of concurrent psychotherapy, which they don't get. It's the pathologising of emotional peaks and troughs by drug companies. (disclaimer before more shoutiness: in my opinion).

I agree with all of that in general.

I really should learn not to air my dirty laundry on message boards in the first place :-/

I used to.

king, would you mind shooting me an e-mail?

i'm a bunch of different nerve endings/reactions/states that i don't even bother labeling, it's a waste of my time =) i just deal with what i can and talk to ppl when i can't.

and i think i always tend to go to the Parents when it comes to questions of overmedication. it's in their hands.

Hurting, I was "diagnosed" with ADHD when I was a kid and have been intermittently medicated. When I was in fourth grade, my doctor recommended giving me coffee instead of medication, because caffeine is supposed to simulate the focusing aspects of the drugs. I used to have to stay in during recess and drink milky coffee. Bummer.

In 5th grade, I started taking a drug called Cylert, which soon after was taken off the market for causing death from acute liver failure. I don't really remember it having much of an effect, although my parents', teachers', and grades' reactions were promising. I stopped taking it for some reason.

Then in 10th grade I started taking Adderall, 10mg at first. I don't know if you've ever taken any recreationally, but it's just like an amphetamine (or cocaine). You feel like a demi-god: ideas are numerous and profound, and your future is there to be filled with them. I used to take them before school, and I'd end up spending class scrambling to record my thoughts in my notebook. I told my doctor that I wasn't feeling much of an effect, so he prescribed me a 20mg dosage (orange pills now!). I used to skip my dosage, then take 50 - 60 mg, stay up for a few days, and then crash on the weekend. I'm not sure if my parents noticed my schedule or what, but I eventually stopped taking them. My grades didn't improve, I had terrible stomach aches, no appetite, AND areduced sex drive-- no good for a 16 year old.

I don't recommend medication. Obviously, I abused mine, so maybe someone more responsible could profit a proper schedule/dosage. I would never take them again, though. If ADHD exists and it's some sort of chemical imbalance, the medications we have simply aren't precise enough. It's like getting stitches with a knitting needle. It only gets the job done incidentally, and has a lot of side effects.

If you're desperate or curious, ask your doctor to do a trial two weeks or so. If it works, great. Personally, I would rather be my impulsive, distracted, procrastinating self than whoever the meds purport to make me. You have to remember that these drugs don't just regulate our kidneys or reduce cholesterol; they target our BRAINS, so they literally alter who we are.

Okay, I'm kind of drunk, but you should check out this corny bestseller that my mom bought me a few years ago. It's called DRIVEN TO DISTRACTION. It's kind of comforting.

huey is right.

you all have disorders.

ADHD can't be diagnosed based on a kid just being hyper or out of control. I used to work on the children's unit in a psychiatric hospital. ADHD was one of the diagnoses almost every child had. All of them had no trouble sitting on the couch watching Disney movies from beginning to end. A child who really has ADHD can't even focus on things they ARE interested in. What annoys me the most is that when kids are misdiagnosed like this on such a large scale you end up having people making claims that the disorder doesn't exist at all, which is not good for the children who really do have ADHD and really do need the medications in order to function well. It has been over 10 years since I worked at that hospital and I would have thought that the ADHD diagnosis trend would have died out by now. Apparently I was wrong.

fucking WOW! the whole "2 years ago" part of this thread is so unspeakably stupid, wrong, and awful, I would get angry if it were just a little less troll-y.

the rest of it's pretty awful, too.

I sometimes wonder if I have ADHD or something, but I think I'm just a lazy bastard.

(NB I am in no way insinuating that people with actual ADHD are just lazy and should pull themselves together or anything!!!)

Wait I think I mean ADD not ADHD.

same thing

I probably don't mean either then. Never mind!

kenan is just trying to be dumb and succeeding

ADHD is a slightly different flavor of ADD. I have the latter, not the former. Wasn't diagnosed until i was 21 or so.

xp thank you sunny

I'd thought I was ADD, myself. This is me to a tee:

I am a habitually messy, disorganized person, and I am easily distracted. I have trouble finishing projects, I procrastinate heavily, make tasks take way longer than they need to, and often feel "overwhelmed by the basic tasks of daily life" and all that.

But then the whole ticklist diagnosis thing makes me think it's coincidence, and that many people could apply these attributes to themselves quite comfortably. But do they?

Also, what are the social aspects? I've always found it incredibly difficult holding down conversations with most people, which I always figured was part of this. Is that something generally associated with the disorder? Never sure whether this was down to attention span or just bad listening skills. I've always been thought of as 'weird' anyway.

sunny likes big dogs

ITS TRUE!!!!

CHILDREN TOO!!

http://galleries.lycos.co.uk/d/4883-2/5900950.jpg
l-r big dog; kenan

big dogs are fun

to be serious for a moment, I was under the impression (of my doctor) that ADHD is what we now call ADD, and there is no difference.

also, i got it in spades, if you haven't noticed.

ADHD is a slightly different flavor of ADD.

plz to reference this, not to be the snark, but I really would like to know if I've been lied to

ADHD is Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder and ADD is Attention Deficit Disorder. They *are* different diagnoses, so yes, you have been lied to.

that's not a reference

I can find nothing to differentiate the two AT ALL

please please make me look stupid

Doesn't 'HD' manifest itself in physical behaviors, where 'DD" is the mental/concentration issues?

http://add.about.com/cs/addthebasics/a/add.htm

The Differences between ADD and ADHD - Though there are many symptoms that are shared between ADD and ADHD, there are also some major differences. Some symptoms might also be similar but may be caused by different reasons. For example, restlessness can be a symptom of ADD, Inattentive Type, but is often triggered by anxiety from completing tasks requiring sustained attention. Restlessness in ADHD, Hyperactive and Impulsive Type is caused by the symptom of hyperactivity.

http://add.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=add&cdn=health&tm=55&f=20&su=p247.2.140.ip_p726.2.152.ip_p284.8.150.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.help4adhd.org/en/about/what/WWK8

Confusing labels for AD/HD

In 1994 the name of the disorder got changed in a way that is confusing for many people. Since that time all forms of attention deficit disorder are officially called "Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder" after which a comma appears. After the comma, a subtype is specified:

* "Predominantly Inattentive Type" for someone with serious inattention problems, but not much problem with hyperactivity/impulsive symptoms;
* "Combined Type" for someone with serious inattention problems and serious problems with hyperactivity and impulsivity; or,
* "Predominantly Hyperactive/Impulsive Type for someone with serious problems with hyperactivity/impulsivity, but not much problem with inattention.

Even though these are the official labels, a lot of professionals and lay people use both terms: "ADD" and "AD/HD." Some use those terms to designate the old subtypes; others use ADD just as a shorter way to refer to any subtype.

http://www.add-adhd.org/ADHD_attention-deficit.html

What is Attention-Deficit Disorder?

ADD is officially called Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, or AD/HD (American Psychiatric Association, 1994), although most lay people, and even some professionals, still call it ADD or A.D.D. (the names given in 1980) or ADHD . The disorder's name has changed as a result of scientific advances and the findings of careful field trials; researchers now have strong evidence to support the position that AD/HD [ A.D.D. or ADHD ] [as we will refer to the disorder throughout the remainder of this Briefing Paper] is not one specific disorder with different variations. In keeping with this evidence, AD/HD [ A.D.D. OR ADHD ] is now divided into three subtypes, according to the main features associated with the disorder: inattentiveness, impulsivity, and hyperactivity. The three subtypes are:

* AD/HD [ A.D.D. OR ADHD ] Predominantly Combined Type,
* AD/HD [ A.D.D. OR ADHD ] Predominantly Inattentive Type, and
* AD/HD [ A.D.D. OR ADHD ] Predominantly Hyperactive-Impulsive Type.

These subtypes take into account that some children with AD/HD [ A.D.D. OR ADHD ] have little or no trouble sitting still or inhibiting behavior, but may be predominantly inattentive and, as a result, have great difficulty getting or staying focused on a task or activity. Others with AD/HD [ A.D.D. OR ADHD ] may be able to pay attention to a task but lose focus because they may be predominantly hyperactive-impulsive and, thus, have trouble controlling impulse and activity. The most prevalent subtype is the Combined Type. These children will have significant symptoms of all three characteristics.

ADD is officially called Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, or AD/HD (American Psychiatric Association, 1994), although most lay people, and even some professionals, still call it ADD or A.D.D. (the names given in 1980) or ADHD

what so now im supposed to call it "a d slash h d"?

call me old school but NO HYPERACTIVITY, NO H.

sunny is just trying to be dumb and succeeding :P

look, i'm sorry I went off on big dogs in small apartments, ok? Truce.

Chronic Fatigue is SOOO fake. It used to be called sloth, and it's one of the seven deadly sins. Now it's a 'condition' so lazies can collect disability and watch more Montell.

-- andy, Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:07 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Link

There's not many statements I hate more than this type of statement.

Dude, anything, I don't care what or how you label it, if it gets in the way of your functioning, it's a problem. Like I've experienced (fuuuuck have I ever experienced) and Hurting sez here:

Procrastination and disorganization are real problems. They can lead to career and marriage failure, depression, feelings of wasted potential and missed opportunities. Fuck, if I wanted to of course I could "change my environment" instead - I could go live on some commune or something. But that isn't what I want.

And my problems, you know...I was not wanting to leave the house & all kinds of wonderful funtime stuff. Which 5 or so different docs/psychs/therapists suggested all thought were different diagnoses (based on the symptoms). Well, it helped in getting right meds, but since everyone's so different, you kind of have to start w/basics based on some generalized idea of what's wrong & find pills or combos that work better from there.

And of course there's no one answer to all this & that's why it pisses me off when people (general populus or even some overly pushy doctors) think they are the personal expert on how exactly one should solve their problems in this arena.

It's been shown that if you educate yourself and then choose your OWN treatment plan, it's more effective, if only because you are getting efficacy & c. from deciding the whole thing for yourself. That works for me.

exactly (both posts)

Feeling you X 100, Hurting. It sucks a lot and I'm still waiting to get to the point where I can afford a professional diagnosis of this shit and get it taken care of, if possible.

Plus: A child who really has ADHD can't even focus on things they ARE interested in.

Exactly. And that's why adult ADD is such a problem. When you have goals and the ambition and drive to make them happen and yet can't keep yourself consistently focused enough to get anywhere, it's incredibly frustrating and occasionally downright depressing. A glacial pace isn't compatible with mortality.

a big dog in a small apartment is only a problem if the dog is hyperactive. A merely inattentive big dog is fine in a small apartment.

ooh i'm glad this is still happening. so i went out to get a froze fruit and have a cigarette. now all this time this conversation re: big dogs, i've been thinking about this one guy and his big dog i saw on my block the other day. some yellow lab thing. they looked so happy. well i go out and there's this guy with this dog, again looking really cute. then they got in a jeep and drove away. i feel like he drove his dog to my block to walk!

anyway, the point is they seemed very happy walking in Brooklyn together.

a big dog in a small apartment is only a problem if the dog is hyperactive. A merely inattentive big dog is fine in a small apartment.

-- Beth Parker, Tuesday, August 7, 2007 9:45 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Link

Which, strangely enough, kind of explains why I don't think my parents and teachers would have thought I was ADD - I was never hyperactive, I just couldn't concentrate. When I daydreamed all the time it was just "cute" (at least until middle school), and I often slid by on my ability to bullshit.

I have always slid by on my ability to bullshit. I still do. It's my #1 coping skill. I have the more common type of ADHD -- the "combined," so I'm both inattentive and v v jittery. I can spend a whole day at work unable to either get much work done or keep my leg still. I need medication pretty badly, actually, before I get fired or self-medicate myself into an alcohol coma or both. :(

So in answer to the thread question: yes. And it's a big problem.

lol i was reading ur post and doing my leg tapping thing and then i kept reading and then i stopped leg tapping.

That another thing, actually -- ADHD and alcoholism were made for each other. It calms the nerves, focuses the mind for about 5 minutes (which is more than you've been able to focus all day), and plays right into that whole "poor impulse control" aspect of ADHD.

i hate when u have a drink thinking u can relax to get some work done but then u just pass out

i wonder if it is possible to have environment- and stress-induced ADD? e.g. it builds up and then unleashes on system? like a virus coming in and out of remission

i do think all the categorizing and assigning of disorders to things has possibly gone too far, but at the same time, naming something (not nec in health/medicine but in world in general) is a way to acknowledge and tackle it. not so into the rampant prescription of drugs, however.

i wonder if it is possible to have environment- and stress-induced ADD?

It's possible to have anxiety disorders, but adult add is generally something you have as a child and never grow out of. Most add people will tell you that they can't ever remember a time when they WERE able to relax and focus.

god have mercy on every teacher i ever had

I disagree with this. There is such a thing as adult onset ADD. I've been treated for such although a psych told me that symptoms for ADD were pretty indistinguishable from bipolar symptoms so there was no point in making an extra diagnosis.

I had absolutely no trouble with concentration and focus before the age of about 24.

Yeah, that's me - although I do get that "hyperfocus" thing ADD people are supposed to get sometimes. (xpost)

I used to keep myself at the office way longer than I had to be because it was so hard for me to finish work efficiently - there's not much of another explanation for that kind of procrastination. (now I have a flexible job that's partly based at home - which is even worse in a way, but no one really notices how long it takes me to do things.)

(by yeah that's me, I mean I had trouble focusing early on - in elementary school I was always known for daydreaming)

well, if not full blown caused ADD, there definitely seems to be external factors that can exacerbate the symptons, and stress & a stressful environment will do that.

Also, my hyperfocus/ADD bits manifests itself in such a way to feed my videogame addiction. I can spend way too much time getting involved in a game world if it's rich enough, and play long enough in a session to where I know i'm grinding at the end, but I can't break away due to the brain candy/low-level nervous stimulation by the game. It's something like where I'd have times that I couldn't wait to get home to dive back into some world(Oblivion, Vice City, San Andreas, etc) that was far more richly detailed and stimulating than my boring dayjob. The only non-game behaviour I can remember, where I spent all my evenings consuming some media or narrative, was when I was shotgunning entire seasons of BSG.

I keep seeing "hyperfocus" and thinking "hyperfuckus."

What are the biggest drawbacks to ritalin, assuming non-abuse? Is it dependency forming? Does it wear off after a while, moving you to stronger drugs? I know about the risk of heart palpitations and all that.

probably would make more sense to ask a doctor instead of ilx.

Most doctors haven't actually been on the meds they prescribe, and are totally unaware of a lot of their negative/side effects.

so yeah, nevermind me, ask a bunch of non-expert non-professionals!

I wish Nowell would check back in.

uh, I did talk to a doctor, who suggested ritalin and told me about the side-effects. But I would like to hear about it from people who have actually taken it.

a doctor most likely could've answered those questions.

Maybe ask him about something like Strattera? It's not a stimulant so doesn't have a lot of the negative side-effects that Ritalin does. My brother was on ritalin when he was younger. I'll shoot him an email and see if he has anything to share.

And yes while no doctor has ever taken every single medicine for every ailment they are required to treat I think it is safe to place some faith in their years of study and professional knowledge. Otherwise you may as well not bother with modern medicine and just muck about with some roots and potions from your local curandera.

I've been on ritalin as an adult, what would you like to know?

I'm actually still on Concerta, which is ritalin-derived, I think.

Stence, there are things about medications that are not listed in the side effects. A doctor will not know half as much about the way they actually make you *feel* as someone who has been on the stuff.

For example, I've never come across a single piece of literature about Lithium that even mentions the low-leve auditory hallucinations. Yet talking to a couple of other people who had been on it, they marked the same sensation. That's not something my doctor could have told me, but it's something I wish I'd known before I took the stuff.

uh, if you and other people experience side effects that haven't been reported, PERHAPS YOU SHOULD TELL SOMEONE, MAYBE A DOCTOR EVEN.

I'd say I have a cautious, slightly wary but ultimately faithful attitude toward modern medicine. I just know that the pharma industry has been pushing drug solutions to everything for years, and that there are sometimes unsavory relationships between pharma and doctors, or between pharma and the bodies performing studies. I also know that in my previous experiences with ongoing medication (for asthma, allergies), I found that in the long run I got worse and required stronger medication, but when I stopped using medication I eventually had fewer problems, and none of the doctors I saw suggested this effect as a possibility. I'm not about to seek out medicinal plants in the forest, just wanted to hear someone's experience with the drug.

ps thanks for the needless condescension

Like you think I didn't try that? And face the doctor going "hrmm, that side effect isn't listed in the handbook. If you're hallucinating, maybe you're having a schitzophrenic breakdown, and should be put on even MORE heavy medications for the side effects of the medication we put you on to stop the side effects of the first one..."

And then you learn to shut your mouth in doctors offices, and trust experiencial evidence.

x-posts

p.s. Stence, you know I love you, but you're kind of being a dick on this thread. Can't you go and do something nice, like post pictures of your hair? :-)

xxxxpost

:( I was not being condescending and have emailed my brother. If he gives me a useful response, I will share. (also I have been on Strattera and had no bad side effects although I don't feel it did much good either.)

Kate, I think you're being the dick.

y'know, it isn't naive to suggest that doctors actually should be WORKING for you, as a patient. if you feel that your doctor isn't helping you or is withholding information from you or just isn't aware of the facts, you can go to a new one (at least in the states) (if you have good insurance, which i don't).

however, doctors are not cure-all medicine man shaman types. and they certainly can't do their jobs if you don't share what you're experiencing with them. the doctor-patient relationship has to go both ways for it to even be somewhat useful.

and asking for someone's opinion on a drug they've taken is fine, but won't necessarily help you at all. everyone's physiology is different (like wow! ya don't say), and some side effects that someone on ritalin might experience may not be relevant to you at all.

again, if you feel i'm being condescending to say that you should talk - candidly and with as much detail as possible as you can - to a doctor, well, then i guess i'm being condescending. but i know that if i was going to take anything on the advice of a physician - or anyone else, for that matter - i'd want to know as much as possible about it, and i'd ask that physician as many questions as i could think of to ask.

And then you learn to shut your mouth in doctors offices, and trust experiencial evidence.

that's really not going to do you any favors. i'm sure that culturally there's a lot of differences between health care in the uk and health care here, but there's no way i'd let a doctor shut me up or stifle me from asking questions when my own health is concerned.

from drugs.com:

lithium side effects:

*extreme thirst, urinating more or less than usual;
*weakness, fever, feeling restless or confused, eye pain and vision problems;
*restless muscle movements in your eyes, tongue, jaw, or neck;
*pain, cold feeling, or discoloration in your fingers or toes;
*feeling light-headed, fainting, slow heart rate;
*hallucinations, seizure (blackout or convulsions);
*fever with muscle stiffness, sweating, fast or uneven heartbeats; or
*early signs of lithium toxicity, such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, drowsiness, muscle weakness, tremor, lack of coordination, blurred vision, or ringing in your ears.

I assume hallucinations covers both visual and auditory.

Knowledge is power and you should always do your own research. This includes from official sources as well as other users of those meds. As with all info you must remember not to take anything as the final word and exercise your own judgement.

Stence, if you were going to get contact lenses, would you talk to an eye doctor with perfect vision, or would you ask your mate who had contacts what they were like?

If you were gonna get a bicycle, would you talk to a bicyclist, or a bicycle salesman who drove a car everywhere?

If you were gonna get a house built, would you hire an architect who had only ever read about engineering, or one who had had experience working with engineers on site on other projects?

It's a perfectly valid question to want to ask someone with actual experience, rather than simply accept the prognosis of an expert.

Ask both and make your decision based on both is the smart route.

xpost - those are completely strawman arguments. doctors don't just work in some magical vacuum without other patients and research, much less years and years of training.

Sorry, I somehow missed the post where you actually asked questions.

What are the biggest drawbacks to ritalin, assuming non-abuse?

For me, the biggest thing was behavioural -- the anger thing. I used to get angry about things for about five seconds, but by the time that amount of time had passed, I had forgotten the feeling of the anger. Not necessarily forgot what made me angry, nor why it made me angry-- I just sort of... disconnected from it very quickly. Now I actually have the capacity to "hold on" to that feeling, which scared me for a while-- I actually found myself having to breathe slower, count to ten, etc.

Is it dependency forming?

yes and no. If I don't take them, I'm 'off' all day-- kind of tired, kidn of irritable, unable to focus on even things I enjoy-- but, I was like this before I started taking Ritalin. I'd say it's habit-forming insofar that it makes you more productive, and you... get used to being more productive? Does that make sense?

Does it wear off after a while, moving you to stronger drugs?

I was on 2x10mg fast release of Ritalin for a while, about 4-6 hours apart from each other. Then I was on 1x20 slow release ritalin, with 5-10mg fast release on days where I 'needed' it. I then went to 36mg Concerta, which is a bit more but metered out even longer than the slow release (14 hours instead of 10, roughly). I have been on the 36mg Concerta for probably a couple of years now, with no need to upgrade-- I've thought about it a couple of times, but for the most part I'm doing okay without. If I developed a 'tolerance,' it was to the side effects, and the actual benefits remained.

I know about the risk of heart palpitations and all that.

I've had my blood pressure feel like it's gone up only fter accidentally taking my ritalin twice (I'm absent minded before it kicks in, so about 3 times in the past few years I've said 'hey, I should take it' then three minutes later, 'hey I should take it.') On my regular dose, though, no real problems. I've been going to my doc a few times a year to make sure my blood pressure is still safe. Then again, I'm 23, thin, and I run around a fair bit. YMMV.

Your doc should only be putting you on a trial run first, anyway, because Ritalin ISN'T for everyone with 'ADD.' Having been someone with ADD and having been a camp counselor for other kids with ADD has shown me that the actual label is bullshit, and I think it's just a blanket term for lots of different mental problems that have similar symptoms. Ritalin has made my life a LOT better. Some people, it's made it way worse. Some people do better on Dexedrine (one of my best friends in HS), some on anti-depressants (an ex-boyfriend of my friend), some on other pills (I don't know people on the other stuff, like Adderall, Strattera, etc, but I know they work for some). The best way to know for sure is to try one and see if it helps. Ritalin won't make you a junkie if you do it for a couple of days.

THIS IS REALLY XXXXXXXXPOSTED

What are you guys arguing? NEVER LISTEN TO DOCTORS ABT DRUGZ vs. NEVER LISTEN TO ANYONE BUT DOCTORS ABT DRUGZ? Because if so you're both so wrong. Even in the 'straw man' arguments what would stop me from listening to the guy who wears contacts AND the eye doctor?!

That is what I have said. Anything otherwise seems stupid. Like I said knowledge is power esp when it comes to your health. You can never ask too many questions.

i never said not to ask other people, what i'm arguing is that a doctor is generally going to be more informed - generally has to be more informed even (it's their job, afterall) - moreso than other people you know who have taken the same drug/had the same procedure, because not everyone reacts the same way to the same drug.

i dont think hstencil was ever really arguing that you shouldnt talk to your friends, just that masonic boom's "DONT TRUST DOCTORS" stance is sorta ridiculous

xpost yep

I'm not even going to try to express myself any more, you guys can just carry on reading whatever you like into my posts, regardless of what I'm trying to say.

But Will, I'd like to say thanks for that post, that's the kind of detailed information that I'd like to know before taking any drug.

To MB's credit, it's fucking HARD to trust a doctor after they've disregarded what you've said about your experiences on something, or perpetually misprescribed. I have a lot of friends who feel the same way-- in fact, one of my best friends was on Lithium for a while when he definitely shouldn't have been.

The real trick here, though, is to make sure you have a good doctor. That's what nobody seems to have brought up yet... you can say not to trust doctors, or to trust them more than non-doctors, but when it comes down to it, a good doctor's advice is as helpful as a bad doctor's is harmful. It's naive to think that all doctors are wise and intelligent and caring and good listeners, but it's callous to think that they're all the doc from Requiem for a Dream. The best we can do is find the right doctor.

That's easy for me to say though, I live in Canada.

The real trick here, though, is to make sure you have a good doctor.

Absolutely. You have to keep trying until you find one that clicks with you and you know you can trust. My current psych. is fan-fucking-tastic. Alas he takes no insurance so I must pay cash. That is the sad truth of US healthcare: to get the best you must often have the dough.

dude:

y'know, it isn't naive to suggest that doctors actually should be WORKING for you, as a patient. if you feel that your doctor isn't helping you or is withholding information from you or just isn't aware of the facts, you can go to a new one (at least in the states) (if you have good insurance, which i don't)

if you think your doctor isn't listening to you or isn't answering your questions to your satisfaction, BY ALL MEANS GO TO A DIFFERENT ONE. how many times do i have to say it?

also you could not pay me to take lithium, no way.

Have you tried it before?

It's been miraculous for me and zero serious side-effects. I know a lot of people have bad side effects but for others (like myself) it is seriously the only thing that works.

no i haven't tried it but based on what doctors (ha!) and people i know who've taken it (double ha!) have told me, and that list of side effects, i wouldn't want to. if you had a positive experience, that's great! i feel like i've known a lot of people who've taken it who have had intensely negative experiences on it, not to mention it isn't really applicable to any problems i've really had anyway.

Saying you would never take it based on what you've heard from others is just as ignorant as what's been said above.

If you suffered from the disease it is used for and literally tried everything else, trust me trying something you've heard some bad things about in an attempt to be able to actually LIVE is perfectly valid. It is not physically addictive and you can always get off of it if you don't like it.

Compared to other mood stabilizers used to treat Bipolar Disorder it's the simplest, most tried and true drug out there.

It's been good for my wife as well. Some side effects, none TOO bad, except her drymouth is so bad she probably drinks 4-5 liters of water a day.

xpost

lol, so now you're telling me that what doctors have told me about it is "ignorant?"

and again, it isn't even applicable for anything i'd need, what i've learned from doctors (and patients too!) was asking out of curiosity. if it worked for you, then good for you. again, not all drugs work for everyone, even people with the same symptoms and diseases.

xpost

Like I've said over and over you have to use many different resources and then YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT. Did you ask psychiatrists? In my experience, GPs don't know as much as specialists.

Yeah also do you ever watch drug commercials? They are required to list every side effect ever reported but chances are you'll only experience a fraction of them if that.

The only thing lithium does to me is the dry mouth Hardy mentioned. I always have water or gum with me. So what? Drinking water's good for you. I also have an extreme intolerance to heat and weight gain. However that could be attributed to the thyroid disease I've just been diagnosed with.

When I was on Depakote my hands shook so bad I couldn't write and my students would ask what was wrong with me. It looked like I had DTs. Oh I also tried to commit suicide on that one.

Topamax, face paralyzed.

Trileptal, extreme dizziness and passing out conking my head on the floor.

I've been the happiest and most stable on Lithium than I ever have in my life.

Thanks for the rundown above, Will. I've got a psych appointment two weeks from now to see if I can get on ADD meds after thirty years of consistently losing the plot. I'm all ears for any helpful info I can get on the subject.

I've been the happiest and most stable on Lithium than I ever have in my life.

this phrasing is exactly what terrifies everyone about it

Someone mentioned Provigil on another thread recently. It's not an ADD drug necessarily but it is a stimulant that's supposed to greatly help with concentration.

xpost

Why Tom? What's wrong with actually being able to live life the way most other people do?

people are only comfortable with miracles that come from their own concept of god

that was an xpost but it answers your question anyway.

funny, that.

not really that funny at all

It's hard to have a conversation about the value of a drug with people who have never experienced the disease it treats.

As many threads about mental disorders often devolve into, none of these are magic pills. You don't take them and instantly become a member of the polyphonic spree. The merely free you from being a prisoner to your moods and give you the mental clarity to actually live life: hold a job, maintain a relationship, not drug and drink in an attempt to self-medicate, not constantly plan suicide, not risk jail b/c of your insane antics.

This stable feeling that most people take for granted opens up so much more of life. It's simply called being healthy.

This thread has inspired me to pick up the phone and call a doctor. I've been needing to for... shit... YEARS. I need ADD meds, and for a while anyway I need sleep meds. I've been using Lunesta at night, but it doesn't work anymore for some reason. I wake up after 4 hours, consistently, and sometimes I can go back to sleep, and sometimes I can't. Not sleeping really fucks with your life.

Anyway. xpost to Deric: "losing the plot" is a perfect way to put it.

Yay! I got an appointment tomorrow! That was easy.

The magic R helped with my sleep, too, because when it wears off I'm often quite tired (possibly due ot expending more energy over the course of the day).

I should mention another side effect... I lost 15-20lb when I started it. Good for some people, I guess, but I was already only 170lb, and 6'3".

Trazadone is also good for sleep and pretty mild overall.

totally anecdotal so yes i'm taking it with a grain of salt as should you but one of the most fucked up times i've ever seen someone on a prescription drug was when a former boss was on provigil. he also had/has a bit of a drinking/drug problem so obviously it wasn't due to the provigil solely, but man, he was totally nuts when he was on it.

I think drinking and drugs combined with a stimulant would be a serious, possibly heart-attack inducing, problem

Trazodone is also used to reduce the symptoms of agoraphobia, drug induced insomnia, essential tremor, repetitive screaming, and some pain syndromes.

heh. I'm really glad I do not suffer from repetitive screaming.

New thread: Is repetitive screaming a real disorder?

haha, I've never seen that! That's what Homer needed when kept having the hypnosis-induced nightmare.

I think drinking and drugs combined with a stimulant would be a serious, possibly heart-attack inducing, problem

-- Ms Misery, Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:23 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yep, he's kind of a mess even without the provigil.

New thread: Is repetitive screaming a real disorder?

It's going to be in about five more posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbYsoEasio

"drug-induced insomnia" = "just stopped doing so much coke?"

so yeah, nevermind me, ask a bunch of non-expert non-professionals!

So you're basically assuming that EVERYONE on this board is a non-expert/non-professional. Next you'll tell me all people surfing the net are sexually deprived socially inept nerds or something. Way to go, Hstencil. Secondly you don't need to be a professional to have a well-based opinion on this matter (or any other matter).

So, HStencil, whenever you need an opinion, do you call the 0900-EXPERT-R-US line disregarding what anyone else says?

I think he was only responding to the idea that you shouldn't ask doctors at all.

What a great thread. I love ILX.

It seems par for the course for ILx

I know, Sam, I was overreacting a bit. Hurting was asking some experiences and that's what he gets as a snappy reply (from Hstencil). I really think people should have a bit more tact sometimes. Here and everywhere else.

hey look! the human fucking race!

retards!

I think he was only responding to the idea that you shouldn't ask doctors at all.

OK, now I think that the lithium is making *you* hallucinate, because that was never said on this thread. I don't know how "ask other people with first hand experience because doctors don't know everything" got twisted into that, but hey, you've been using me as your straw man for nigh on a decade, so why stop now?

Did I mention your name Kate?

Pretend you don't know who I am. I'm sure you'd agree life would be more pleasant for both of us if we were strangers.

WOW SO UHH... ADD. I HAVE IT IT'S REALLY FUN KIND OF LIKE AN XBOX

see you guys later, i'm gonna go tab some acid.

*regrets not letting this thread die* :-(

I want to know if Will is giving the XBox a thumbs up or thumbs down.

depends on what he just injected. (lame joke, i know)

Are you calling Will an IV drug user?? Now that's low. ;)

I was being ADD, all making useless associations based on the things in my head hey guys look a dog!

people are touchy about stuff sometimes.

Q: how many kids with ADD does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: WANNA RIDE BIKES??

xxpost

My ADD keeps me constantly clicking to the "now playing on Sirius" tab, choosing a new song, refreshing ILx, turning back to my CSS and adding something. . .repeat every 60 seconds.

argh. . . .

lol @ laurel

My ADD keeps me from living life above the poverty line. It's lots of fun.

I just would ike to point out that when I met Kate St. Clair in person, in real life, in a london pub, she came off exactly the fucking insane homeless bonkers bag lady archetype I thought she would. I vote hard to the left but I don't suffer a fool for very long. I suspect the rest of the FAP crowd felt sorry for me while I endured your lecture on the Masonic conference rooms of London, but I've learned my lesson not to speak for others. To cover my own sentiments, how about a big FUCK YOU YOU'RE PRETTY STUPID. Congrats on getting to open for an overrated pack of 40something talentless bithces that one time, that is something the rest of us will never get to do.

also I hate you and think you're an imbecile.

Oy this thread

i don't get the injected joke, can someone spell it out for me?

I think Nath was talking about drug taking. Maybe. So that XBox, yay? nay?

I am going to buy one before Xmas so they better be pretty good!

people are real touchy about stuff sometimes

Those Wii folx are pretty belligerent.

CAN WE CALL IT BY ITS TRUE NAME PLEASE, THE CHRISTBOX 360

Who'd have thought an ILX discussion of mental-health pharmaceuticals would wind up like this?

or just an ILX thread about (pseudo)* mental health

*optional

xpost

You mean turning to video game systems?

my doctor prescribed the xbox for my relationship difficulties.

My therapist actually told me to use Guitar Hero to help with my anxiety.

I just would ike to point out that when I met Kate St. Clair in person, in real life, in a london pub, she came off exactly the fucking insane homeless bonkers bag lady archetype I thought she would. I vote hard to the left but I don't suffer a fool for very long. I suspect the rest of the FAP crowd felt sorry for me while I endured your lecture on the Masonic conference rooms of London, but I've learned my lesson not to speak for others. To cover my own sentiments, how about a big FUCK YOU YOU'RE PRETTY STUPID. Congrats on getting to open for an overrated pack of 40something talentless bithces that one time, that is something the rest of us will never get to do.

I will never ever understand Americans. I really don't. I don't get the cues so don't know when they are joking or not.

i don't get the injected joke, can someone spell it out for me?

You compared yourself (or rather your ADD) with an Xbox. So I made the inject (drugs/games) comment. It was a really crappy joke... I guess, I'm too belgian stupid to make jokes.

My therapist actually told me to use Guitar Hero to help with my anxiety.

Roffle. Oh god, I can't stop laughing. How come my husband wants to smash his "perfectly tuned plastic guitar" all the time.

Is he not that good at it? It was a fun activity for both of us until G realized I was loads better at it. Now he never wants to play. :(

Oh he's VERY good at it. Top something or other. :-)

He's moved on to Bioshock which, I must say, is one fantastic looking game. OMG. Drool and so forth.

inject games? now i really don't get it-- bioshock reference?

americans inject video games into our brains now.

Never mind, like I said, I'm crap at jokes. Insert/inject. Argh, damn, Will, do you really want to point out how thickheaded I am. ;-)

british people have no sense of humor

ohhhhh haha. apparently i am more interested in pointing out how thick-headed I am, because I really didn't get it and wanted to get it. And I often don't get jokes (see economics thread for further evidence).

xpost I'm Canadian Mr. Que

(which I guess makes me British once-removed so your statement still stands)

Is Americanism a real disorder?

BRITISH HUMOR

http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/images/mr-bean.jpg

watch it. That man is a national treasure on both sides of the pond.

noooooooooooooooo

TS: Bean vs

http://www.mtctickets.com/comedy/images/larry-the-cable-guy.jpg

Provigil + drinking + drug problem = THE WORST BEER SHITS OF YOUR LIFE

(not a doctor)

xpost

ooo, that's a tough one.

(ha! I was just GISing for a larry the cable guy image for AMERICAN HUMOR and yeah, both of those dudes suck. i was just kidding about brits having no sense of humor.)

A+, guys

Both sides have shining examples of good humor. Stop picking from the bottom of the barrel.

Now where's that Canadian and Belgian humor?

canada has some funny mofos

john candy

http://www.guido.be/imagegallery/VIP/standupls2.jpg

that's apparently belgian humour

http://www.barbkith.net/kithplastiks.jpg

canada humour, shrink-wrapped for freshness

The other day I heard a radio advert for that Mr. Bean's Holiday movie that actually said "If you like Mr. Bean, you'll love this movie!"

This thread is ADD.

http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/Canadians/comedians.html

fuck those dudes we produced carrot top

let's not forget gallagher

http://teachingtreasures.com.au/pic/aeroplane.gif

Hey, to say something...

it is me...

HERE COMES THE THING I'M GOING TO SAY...

are you done being mad?...

it's coming even closer!

oh boy....

here it is:

HURTING DOS HERE IS A V V EXCELLENT SITE FOR CHECKING OUT INFO ON PSYCH MEDS

Dun-a dun-a dun-a, it's crazymeds.org! It's actually good, don't be put off by the URL or tha frames.

Mr. Bean Hulot's Holiday...apparently there's hella France

http://i10.tinypic.com/4t69n69.jpg

I love crazymeds.org

probably would make more sense to ask a doctor instead of ilx.

-- hstencil, Thursday, August 30, 2007 3:32 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

otm, close thread

http://www.franchiseonline.com/limg/lawndoctorlg.jpg

these are my least favorite threads on ILX because it is invariably a bunch of no-nothing dickasses (myself included) giving bullshitty-ass advice. if you don't have a medical doctorate or first-hand experience, then your opinion is worthless.

i think first-hand experience was the whole idea

ya no shit you creepy mofo, i'm talking to all the non-firsthand-experience ppl

ohhh... kay.

¯\(°_o)/¯

Of course, historically speaking, doctors are the last word on diagnosis, as anyone suffering from homosexuality prior to 1973 will affirm.

HAHAHAHahahahaha

sad but true

Happy 2008, guys!

I MEAN DO YOU HONESTLY FUCKING THINK I'VE NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS STUFF BEFORE LIKE DO YOU THINK IT'S NEVER OCCURRED TO ANYONE BUT YOU THAT BEHAVIORAL DISORDERS ARE "CONSTRUCTS" YOU BULLSHIT COLLEGE FUCK? FUCK OFF!

-- Hurting 2, Tuesday, 7 August 2007 04:07 (4 months ago) Link

lol

^ literally the best post in the thread

the lol part or the other part

good ol' Nowell

so i am pretty sure this is a thing i'm dealing with and whatever.

my lady friend has epilepsy and thinks that must be my real problem, since 'adhd isn't really a thing,' as you say. she sorta has an axe to grind about how often epilepsy is misdiagnosed as other stuff--most often, she says, add. she's actually mad at me for reading a book about coping with add (rather than, i dunno, reading a book about coping with her pet disorder?) i can't speak to the validity of her folk diagnosis, but i know that this book i'm reading on organization strategies for people with add is resonating with me like crazy.

i've spent most of my life thinking that if i read set of symptoms that really resonated with me it was because they'd been written to be so broadly that lots and lots of people would buy The Tonic Cure being sold. 'job-endangering procrastination. need to write down everyday things in order to remember them or do them. constructs elaborate productivity systems like so much 200-foot-scaffolding and then realizes the system takes more maintanence than the work, abandons system.'

"yeah, but that's everybody...right?"

i'm starting to recognize that it isn't. whether it's add or adhd or epilepsy is deeply immaterial to me, i'm just trying to find strategies to cope with the effects wrought on my life and relationships and commitments. i'm gonna try to see a doctor this week.

also shout out to markers and the jackals, this podcast has somehow become more essential for me than it already was: http://5by5.tv/b2w

http://i.imgur.com/A1GK6f2.jpg

is this what people tune in for?

Sometimes I think I have this. I'm probably just making excuses for myself. Doesn't really matter anyway as my GP doesn't believe in it.

What's the book, Hoos? Would be interested to read some coping strategies.

Also, good luck and best wishes that you can find a way through this.

(No elaborate productivity systems here but a fine tendency to hoard self-help and self-improvement books and then never make it beyond chapter 1)

i think i have it but i don't believe in it

I'd like to think what I have is a chemically treatable condition, but I think I am just messy and lazy.

I mentioned it to a diagnosed friend once after a particularly bad couple of years of missing deadlines, planning allnighters to catch up and realising at 3am that I hadn't even started and just going to bed, etc. He basically said "oh no, no man, you'd know if you had that, normal people cannot possibly understand how hard I find it to do things"

so I guess he ought to know, but on the other hand, guy had a busy job and was still running a label and releasing acclaimed albums and had a book deal on the side, so I would've liked some acknowledgement that maybe one's internal struggle with such things is not always apparent

(I have a kneejerk aversion to "there is no way you have this thing that I have" rhetoric bcz the "depression isn't just feeling sad and hopeless, it is for special flowers like me" crowd made me think my actual real depression wasn't important enough to see a doctor about until it had got really out of hand)

Pdoc gave me a screener for adult ADD/ADHD several weeks ago. Haven't had it evaluated---it's lost somewhere in my house. I was describing symptoms, or kind of just what I've always thought of as the way I am to him, because since starting an antidepressant I've been hypervigilant about hypomania. Anyway, he was like, no those symptoms are sounding like ADD. I was surprised, but it makes total sense for me. Then again I'm like, "ok, I'm probably just a lazy, lousy shit looking for another psychiatric excuse for myself."

I have intense problems chiefly with motivation, but also with procrastination, deadlines, tardiness, underestimating the time it takes to do things, impulsivity, anger, disorganization, losing things, short-term memory (constantly forgetting what I was about to say), absent-mindedness, alcohol abuse, low achievement, depression, etc. OTOH, I can really home in on something for long periods and to the point where I ignore other stimuli, which always made me think I don't have it, but apparently hyperfocus is also a symptom!

I was quizzing my mom about my childhood & she was like, "oh god! It was a battle to get you to do ANYTHING." She had to switch me to private school (which she really couldn't afford) after public kindergarten b/c I was over-stimulated and "got distracted by my own thoughts." I thrived there, but as soon as we had to move/my home life went to shit & I lost my support system I started flunking & have been pretty much a die-hard loser since then.

This book on procrastination helped me a little:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1572242957/ref=redir_mdp_mobile

But I figure I'm not going to get the ADD shit under control until I see somebody on a regular professional basis, as externally reinforced structure is what I work best under

Yeah, I don't want to go on droogs for it, especially since I get terrible panic attacks. The last thing I want is a stimulant. OTOH, if this is what's wrong with me, it's severely fucked up my life.

is this what people tune in for?

― markers, Monday, March 11, 2013 6:53 AM (17 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

go ahead, caller.

What's the book, Hoos? Would be interested to read some coping strategies.

― susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Monday, March 11, 2013 10:17 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://www.amazon.com/Fast-Minds-Thrive-Think-Might/dp/0425252833

that the drugs seem to work well even on "normal" folks who are just looking to ace their MCATs makes me think everyone does have this to some extent.

Yeah, read a piece in the New Yorker a few years ago about cosmetic psychiatry.

I do think this is a real thing that people have & I've outlined my feelings on psych drugs elsewhere on the board (none of my business if someone does or doesn't want to take them, they're not cure-alls, but may help some people), but I do have some skepticism about adult ADD being the next big market.

I've been reading Driven to Distraction lately (kind of skipping around. TBH, for a book aimed at ADD sufferers it takes way too long to get to the point). I remain pretty convinced that I "have" whatever it "is," and that I have since childhood. I've developed lots of mechanisms to help me cope and I'm overall much better at handling my life and less discouraged than I was when I originally posted to this thread, but I'm plagued and held back by a lot of the same problems. Thinking about maybe seeing some kind of behavioral therapist for a try.

btw supposedly angry outbursts are a symptom, cf my earlier post

But the thing I DO like a lot about Driven to Distraction is that it argues that there is something biological/genetic about ADD that can be separated out from all the other explanations you may have struggled with -- passive aggressive behavior, issues with your parents, laziness, etc. -- but also that it doesn't mean you don't ALSO have those issues, just that there may be a component that can't be solved by sorting out those issues. Which feels very true in my case. And also that ADD can even create additional problems like anxiety and lowered self esteem, which then in turn compound the ability to focus.

inability

And all that feels OTM to me

i have this, technically, but i don't take stimulants anymore because i hate them. the best definition i read was in this book about mindfulness meditation as a treatment for adhd, which said that "people without add generally do things because they are important, and people with adhd do them because they are interesting." at least for me, the disorder is characterized by this always present low-level restlessness, or this craving for new mental simuli, which overrides other priorities too often.

as an adult though you just need to grit your teeth and deal with it. i don't know of another answer. adderall makes things easier but if you are prone to anxiety it's not a great thing to be taking everyday.

behavioral therapy could work too. mostly they teach you how to grit your teeth and deal with it, ime.

yeah the thing is I have done a ton of teeth-gritting over the last several years, and it has worked to an extent, but it's such a daily struggle for me, a constant fight with myself. Thinking about a "diagnosis" again makes me feel released in a way, but it may not actually help me deal with the problem, although perhaps some kind of behavioral "coaching" will? I really don't want to take stimulants either.

I mean, I went from doing abysmally in college and working a dead-end job to doing really well in law school and getting a decent job with a real career path. And I do fairly well in my job but partly because I sort of am able to get away with taking too long to do things by maintaining the illusion that it's because I'm busy with other work.

i believe there's research that suggests that ritalin et al become increasingly less effective into adulthood.

i think it's worthwhile exploring a range of coping strategies - your experience mightn't have been great but i think CBT is worth persevering with

i've had some success with mindfulness meditation. the idea is that by practicing returning to the mantra, refocusing your mind, you are learning how to gently transition from one priority to the next, so it helps impulsivity and also makes it so curbing impulses -- say, to check ilx instead of doing laundry (what i'm doing now) -- isn't experienced as stressful. it puts you more in the driver's seat of your thinking, theoretically.

xp i suffer from chronic insomnia, just in general, so adderall was a nightmare for me. especially because in college i would *need* to take it late at night to do work that i had put off in the afternoon.

good to know though, hurting, that you rebounded from subpar grades in college. my college grades are very inconsistent. i did very well in humanities courses, but very poorly in classes that didn't interest me.

that sounds very appealing. I don't even mind continuing to grit, I just want a way to increase the efficiency of my gritting, if that makes sense, like to reduce the friction. I feel sometimes like the majority of the energy from my efforts to push myself flies off to the side like sparks from a grinding wheel.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=mindfulness+add&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Amindfulness+add&ajr=2

this is the book i have. it's pretty good at explicating the theory, but i don't do all the exercises she outlines in order because that is too complicated. what you should do is just pick a two syllable mantra -- say, "Hurt-Ing" or something -- and sit quietly for ten minutes repeating it slowly in your head. when you feel your mind drift try to push your attention back to the mantra, gently. don't reprimand yourself if you can't focus, just try again.

*replace "what you should do" with "what i do." i am not a mental health professional.

I swing so much between finding it freeing to think of myself this way versus just finding it more discouraging.

Anyone else feel like they really lack medical knowledge? And that's now a serious thing u need to know more about?

It's like, we seem to know about more conditions than ever / diagnose more / yet some conditions are hyped up to sell drugs, or falsely diagnosed and or claimed / plus there's all this corn syrup in food. And I have no idea about any of this stuff.

not knowing anything might put you ahead of people who think they know something.

I'm not sure solid medical knowledge is possible or 100% necessary for a lot of this stuff. If it's helpful to talk about a cluster of traits as a condition, do it - yes, that often means the pharmaceutical industry mobilizing, but in this case, I think, it would be more harmful to think that "there's nothing that a little willpower can't fix."

Personally, it was really helpful for me to be able to bracket my attention problems as "that thing" so that I could break the shame/distraction cycle and think about them productively, rather than think of them as a series of failed character tests.

I'm not sure if I posted this upthread, but I DID get a diagnosis of ADHD-inattentive type, which, totally. Not doing anything for it right now. Definitely not going to take stimulants.

wen i ws 13 i tried2 read a comic version of shakespeare while listening to a rock station an it didn't work in my english tedachers class it ws horrible adhd sucks

for sure

'Is ADHD a real disorder' WTF

I usually make an argument that it isn't really a disorder, I have been diagnosed with it a few years ago and honestly, I wouldn't trade ADHD with nothing. It's been a real difficult time at school and I'm still adjusting, staying away of medication as much as I can, but now that I know that I have ADHD I have way more confidence when it comes to creativity and ideas and connections.

What a weird thread.

I'm officially diagnosed, but don't take stimulants (anymore) because they're terrifying. Useful, though, for finding out what it feels like to have intense concentration on a schedule you can predict and control.

Incidentally, some support recently for the idea that "psychiatric disorder diagnoses are superimposed onto an underlying spectrum" and ADHD might be on the easier to deal with end of a spectrum that also includes more serious disorders:

http://consumer.healthday.com/kids-health-information-23/attention-deficit-disorder-adhd-news-50/shared-genes-may-link-adhd-autism-and-depression-673910.html

Apologies if someone linked this earlier in the thread!

it can be difficult to concentrate

don't take stimulants (anymore) because they're terrifying. Useful, though, for finding out what it feels like to have intense concentration on a schedule you can predict and control.

this is interesting. what do you mean when you say this?

A six year old friend of my daughter's just got a ADHD diagnosis. That blows my mind. How can they tell? We have a neighbor who was diagnosed as a young child, too. He's now 10, and his treatment has made a big difference the past few years, apparently. Sometimes at school they have to let him sprint through the hall for a little why.

A little while.

I usually make an argument that it isn't really a disorder, I have been diagnosed with it a few years ago and honestly, I wouldn't trade ADHD with nothing. It's been a real difficult time at school and I'm still adjusting, staying away of medication as much as I can, but now that I know that I have ADHD I have way more confidence when it comes to creativity and ideas and connections.

― Van Horn Street, Sunday, August 18, 2013 11:23 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so you believe you have ADHD but you don't think ADHD is real?

I don't think it is a 'disorder'.

just a different way of functioning? or

its a neurological disorder. people with add/adhd have noticeably less activity in the concentration, social behavior regulation and movement centers of the brain. kids with add/adhd have 4 or 5 regions (cant remember tham all right now but i know the pre-frontal cortex and cerebellum are two of them) of their brain that are much smaller than non add/adhd kids. all add/adhd peeps have low dopamine levels too.
A disorder is something that disrupts normal functioning and or development so im pretty sure we can safely use that label when it comes to add/adhd.

Yet, there is plenty of room for adhd/add kids (and adults) to lead normal, successful and fulfilling lives. It's probably corny or just way my way to cope with it, but yeah, I see it more as a different way of functioning. The only thing I'm not thriving in is sentimental relationships, that remains very hard for me to deal with. The rest has been pretty awesome now that I'm aware of being add. There is way enough room in this world for the highly creative type, so it can't completely disrupting like, say, an eating disorder where you are going to lack fundamental ressources. The only disrupting thing I can think of when having adhd/add is low self esteem because you spent X numbers of years at school failing when you know you were as smart as any other kid.

I mean that people characterize ADHD as a lack of concentration, but that's not exactly what it is. It's a lack of control over when the concentration happens and what it's directed towards. There are times when it's hard to concentrate on anything, and times when there is intense focus, but on the wrong thing. Stimulants don't just sharpen concentration, they sharpen it predictably. I know when I take a(n instant release) pill that I'll 4-6 productive hours where I can prioritize what I'm working on, followed by a crash. So it's easier to plan what I'm going to work on that day and when I'm going to work on it.

Otherwise - I mean I'm not a really severe case, so I can sometimes force myself to work anyway, but it's like struggling to roll a ball up a hill. It's hard and the ball keeps rolling down again. It's tempting to just put off whatever it is that needs to be done until the focus is there 'naturally' and everything is easy - which is one of the other problems of ADD, it leads to a lifetime of bad habits and procrastination.

Even not taking stimulants, knowing that they are an option - that if I really <i>need</i> to finish a report tomorrow, I can take the pill and finish the report - takes away a lot of the anxiety having ADD, not knowing if you'll be able to pull through when it counts. I feel like I can take more challenging jobs, and be in more challenging situations with that safety net. Anxiety itself disrupts concentration, while challenge without anxiety creates engagement and sharpens it, so a little bit of help goes pretty far.

As far as stimulants being terrifying... they are. Again, maybe it's because I'm on the edge of this disorder, but stimulants affect my mood a lot. I have trouble sleeping while I'm taking them, I feel like a cokehead motormouth even if I don't say anything, and the crash after they wear off feels an awful lot like depression.

I really think that if we, as a society, were less into predictably scheduled productivity - especially in children - this wouldn't be a disorder. Or at least it would be a much less prevalent disorder.

I think so too. The hardest part of this condition is growing up around ppl who think your eclectic interests and lack of instinctive pragmatism make you either a freak or a somewhat pathetic eccentric. "Spacey" people and "idealists" aren't taken seriously in this country, but goddamit if I am ever going to "learn to laugh at myself" when I make a point of treating other people with consideration. (Obviously I'm venting abt something specific here which might not be general to ADD people.) But yeah, stimulants made me feel out of sync with reality... in addition to the insomnia they tuned me into a different, duller frequency of experience (best way i can describe this) and I refuse to take them ever again. I really don't think this can be seen as a disorder... I think it's more like a personality type that doesn't always gel with our culture.

I'm on the minor end of this though and i dont want to disparage ppl who feel they need stimulants to get by.

Oh I totes agree. I'm just being pedantic and saying that it is a biological disorder but of course you can live a perfectly normal life. I've been diagnosed twice (at 19 y/o and 36 y/o) with severe add (this was the result of that test where you have to click a button when you see a certain pattern - I failed miserably)

The other day I got off the couch to get the plug for the computer, and when I returned my boyfriend observed that the cord had traveled all over the house. I got sidetracked by 5 or 6 different things in the course of trying to complete a very simple task. And I was glad he pointed it out because I hadn't even noticed. When I was talking about a possible adhd diagnosis and describing the symptoms, he was like, "uhhhh....yeah. that's you to a T"

my pdoc is sending me to a 2-hour workshop about adhd meds; he won't prescribe anything to me before i weigh all the options carefully. but i think strattera is the way to go, since i can't do stimulants. i've tried vyvanse and concerta in the past but the side effects were too much for me.

this'll be the first time i've been on an adhd med since 2009. i thought i had it under control and chose to focus on my depression and anxiety instead, but i've found my lack of concentration/general fuzzyheadedness returning.

are you on stuff for your comorbid symptoms? I am.

i take lexapro and abilify for the anxiety and depression, and xanax as needed for anxiety attacks and insomnia. pdoc is nervous about treating the adhd with a stimulant because it might drive the anxiety over the edge.

hmm. At this point, there's gotta be a mix of stuff that can handle one without setting off the other. You;d think there'd be enough diagnoses by now to warrant somebody putting enough study time into it.

i've heard abt weird sexual side-effects w/ strattera, though.

Possibly, but half this stuff has weird side effects. E.g. Paxil

Holy carp, my phone autocorrects to Paxil easily. Whoa.

the workshop really wasn't much help but it did get me thinking about wellbutrin as an alternative. dude mentioned that strattera also causes upset stomach, which i get enough of with lexapro, thanks.

It's a lack of control over when the concentration happens and what it's directed towards. There are times when it's hard to concentrate on anything, and times when there is intense focus, but on the wrong thing.

qft

Had one of my busiest weeks ever at work and honestly felt like I only got through it by faking my way. So many things to do at once and I just got paralyzed. Only made it because I could rely on a more senior person working with me on one of the big projects. I have to find a way to function better. I've made huge strides from my college years but it's not cutting it for my current job.

I felt almost like I had this intermittent "amp noise" going through my head that would come in and make it impossible to follow what was going on in a complex, fast-moving conversation, or that would make me misunderstand a barrage of e-mails and miss the important point, or not get how a point linked to a prior point. I kept having to reask things I had already gotten the answer to, forgetting details, etc.

I know the feeling. This has always been a problem, but now that I'm studying for comprehensive exams it's getting annoying. For the last several weeks especially it's felt like I just go out with the direct intention of buckling down and doing my work, but then never get anywhere close to my goal.

Trying Strattera. Today was day one. Thought I noticed a mental calming effect already but too soon to tell.

omgosh i'm starting something new for this week also - adhd bros <fistbump>

Lol

Fwiw Strattera is the only non stimulant medication on the market ask your doctor about Strattera Strattera may cause nausea sleeplessness erectile dysfunction sweats chills drowsiness Strattera.

i need a new script every month

Fwiw I still think it's a situational disorder, like what I really have is a combination of anxiety, nonlinear thinking and the fact that my job requires sitting in front of a computer ten hours a day agitating rather than relieving the anxiety. But I finally decided that as long as that's my situation and as long as a family is depending on me to continue to function in that situation, I'll take meds if it helps.

like what I really have is a combination of anxiety, nonlinear thinking and the fact that my job requires sitting in front of a computer ten hours a day agitating rather than relieving the anxiety

ha, this is me too. tbf i could stand to stay off the parts of the internet that make me upset, but i do need to be online a lot for work.

I sort of agree with that, much in the same way that I wouldn't have to wear glasses had I been a cowboy in 1875 and not staring directly at a sheet of light for 12 hours a day.

i think the only real remnants of my childhood adhd are poor impulse control and a tendency toward procrastination. i wonder if those are things i can isolate and work on specifically instead of taking a bunch of speed.

what I really have is a combination of anxiety, nonlinear thinking and the fact that my job requires sitting in front of a computer ten hours a day agitating rather than relieving the anxiety. But I finally decided that as long as that's my situation and as long as a family is depending on me to continue to function in that situation, I'll take meds if it helps.

this describes my situation perfectly

Day 5 of 25mg of Strattera, I have to say I really like this stuff so far. Noticeable effects (some surprising):

1) I don't feel like I need a cup of coffee first thing in the morning, in fact caffeine cravings are way down
2) My appetite is actually down -- I forgot to eat breakfast and didn't really notice, yet felt fine at the office
3) Stuff that seemed hard to me (e.g. getting my toddler ready in the morning) is starting to seem less hard, like I instead of a constant mental grind/strain, I just feel like "ok, this is the next thing I do, this is how much time I need"
4) All day I feel greater mental clarity/less "fog"
5) It actually has not affected my internet use much, but when I do focus on my work I focus much better and finish things much faster. So I guess it's still up to me to decide to get off the internet when I need to, or it just doesn't help much with the addictive aspect so far.
6) I feel slightly less depressed and anxious
7) I have had moments of clarity on bigger-picture issues about my life that I haven't had in a long time, for example, thoughts about what kind of work I really want to do long-term, where I have mostly been nose-to-the-grindstone for the past couple years

i'm also on day 5 - not quite as noticeable the effects, but the first day i drank my normal large iced coffee and that plus the new medication was too much i was just vibrating for an hour. no coffee the rest of the week and no more problems like that.

Used to be a doctor would say your kid had a "bad case of the fidgets" and then hit them with a large stick.

This thread is epic ILX gold

Strattera gave me some super vivid dreams

My bff/ex housie is (or was) on that stuff. Worked for him but had some v unpleasant side effects (nausea I think?).

me, skot, trayce, nowell, adam, jess, jbr in the first twenty posts... ten years ago. goddamn.

Oh dear got, J. now I feel old.

well tbf

watch it you.

My dreams were fuuuuuucked up. In the first one, I beat up a woman I thought was a man for propositioning my wife in a coffee shop only to find out that my wife had actually propositioned her. Then I realized that a family with a toddler was looking on in horror the whole time.

In the second one, I realized we had a baby who was Chinese, and I asked my wife what happened, and I had apparently forgotten that we had adopted him, and then when I said "what happened to the baby you were pregnant with?" she told me she had had a miscarriage and how could I possibly not remember that.

They had a lot more vivid detail than that, but that can get boring. In the first one though, I visited several other coffee shops throughout the course of the dream, and in one of them I had a cashier who couldn't understand what a macchiato was and tried to charge me $12 for it. My wife and I also tried to steal a car but then chickened out.

From "is ADHD a real disorder" to "i'm on day five of strattera" LOL

I'm going off my new medication. It was causing havoc w/ my crohn's and my GI system is more important to me atm than getting a boost in attention.

Well I didn't start the thread, xp.

maybe i'll ask my doc about the strattera

FWIW the guy who prescribed me this does not prescribe Adderall/Ritalin etc. because he doesn't like prescribing stimulants.

u could use yr newfound focus to write short stories based on those dreams (would read)

The Strattera Nocturnes

post them on ask dr. freud and he will analyze them, it's a graveyard right now

Went back on the stuff. First script had me clenching my jaw at an increased amount, second script has me occaisionally resting/pushing my tongue against my bottom row of teeth. Also, I get chatty and hyper productive for about two hours in the late morning.

This is me on Adderall ^^^

damn i'm kind of jealous of hurting's crazy ass dreams, last night i dreamed i took a bus to the suburbs and discovered an abandoned indoor baseball court under a cliff and shot hoops with my friend

Another bizarre Strattera dream:

I went to see what was supposed to be Lena Dunham's new comedy film, which also had Tina Fey and Amy Poehler in it. One of the first scenes was a very long "comic montage" of young female commercial airliner pilots (including Dunham, Fey, and Poehler) looking frazzled immediately after having landed their planes and shouting "Open the cockpit door!"

like just a really, really long succession of female pilots anxiously shouting "Open the cockpit door!" one after another

Adderall made my dream so boring and literal i cant even

adderall suuuucks.

i think it makes ADD-inclined people dumber, because it forces their non-linear, creative mind into an analytical straightjacket. i just wanted to make to-do lists and then do the things on the to-do lists.

hey, i never posted on this

i've been kicking it w/ concerta for many years and it really helped me sort out my life. never tried adderall because it never seemed necessary -- first thing tried was ritalin and it was basically just what i needed. switched to concerta because it's one pill in the am (vs a couple over the course of the day, and all of the ups and downs that go w/ that)

i don't think it made me less creative per se, but i guess i view creativity as "ability to create things" if that makes sense? and even if i had ~ideas~ back in the day i was never executing anything. what it did is help me relate to other human beings more effectively because i can finish sentences and listen to sentences and actually absorb what people are saying in a more meaningful way. i'm more engaged with the people around me, able to actually hold down a job and produce work i'm proud of and excited to do, and the only drawback (which at this point, i can't even be sure is the drugs or just me growing up) is that i'm a bit overfocused on my career, maybe at the expense of a romantic life or whatever (but i am also 30 and got on my ideal career path a year ago).

Probably gonna wind up back on this train soon. I only derailed in the first place because my life was collapsing around me a few years back and visits to the shrink/medication were sadly ineffecacious at that point. Here's to hoping a return to Ritalin will give me the focus to get out of my dead-end job already.

Probably should note that I found the effects of Ritalin to be almost completely nullified by extreme and unrelenting stress. For those curious.

what sort of drugs are prescribed if you have high anxiety/ocd/depression as well as ADD/ADHD?

i've found that wellbutrin knocked out my depression (p much) and that helped with my anxiety. it also helps alleviate adhd symptoms, not as completely as adderall did, but it makes them more manageable and is indicated for treating some cases of add

ok that's interesting; i was curious since adderall et al seem like they could really exacerbate anxiety.

yeah... adderall is amazing for what it does, but i think it ultimately is playing with fire when it comes to anxiety/depression. doctors seem suspicious when i tell them that; they seem to think it's a good thing. i did have to go back to it for a while to finish my masters degree. there's nothing else really like it when it comes to reducing adhd symptoms ime

but like, i never want to go near it again, if at all possible

(other people do really well on it though. everyone's brains are different)

I've generally experienced a lot of ADD/anxiety/depression comorbidity, and when the ADD symptoms are alleviated, the other two tend to fade (which makes sense to me, as most of the anxiety or depression I've experienced is as a result of being overwhelmed by focus-related stumbling blocks). Although I acknowledge, as Treeship says, that that obviously isn't going to be the case for everyone

everyone's brain is different but mine is the same as Treeship's apparently. (with the masters degree too.) also sleep is more important than anything else.

i've managed to beat so much of my ADHD. i don't think it's anything lifestyle-related like sugar intake. i just became a more organized thinker. i still chase stimulation/dopamine like crazy, but i concentrate better. i think i had to force myself into doing it. it was one of those things where i became resentful of my neurotypical peers for retaining information really well while multitasking or otherwise paying the absolute minimum amount of attention, while i struggled with concentration and retention even as i was listening intently and taking good notes. me not taking that stuff for granted helped me become kind of a rock star of paying attention.

adderall has been the one thing to help me with my chronic depression and social anxiety.

i think adderall can be super helpful for depression and social anxiety at the right dose and assuming all else is equal (ie youre not an insomniac etc).

hey i'm feeling like... maybe this is me? i have always had trouble dealing with periods of depression and generalized anxiety, but i've only recently come around to the possibility that i might have attention issues as well. my executive function is, let's say, inconsistent at best. i've resisted any sort of medication or diagnosis for any condition for a long time for misguided personal reasons. being a caretaker for a chronically mentally ill sibling will do that, i guess, not because i distrust psychiatric medicine but more because i internalized the role of "the healthy one" during that time. but anyway... i think i need help here.

whatever you decide to do or not do, hopefully you'll find it freeing (as i did) to realize your focus problems aren't a moral failing

xp

i've been on adderall xr once-daily for 12 years and it's been nothing but helpful - before, i always felt my mind could never rest and it like, caused tangible pain via stress and exhaustion and absolutely horrible sleep habits.

it's certainly worth looking into, especially if you think the concentration/mental restlessness issues are exacerbating things like the depression you mentioned.

I quit Strattera because it caused (temporary) impotence, like really bad. Unfortunate, because otherwise I kind of loved it.

The moral failing aspect of taking meds is something I want to throttle people over. It's like, meds have their place, you fuckin' hippie.

I'm sensitive about talking about it out loud.

But that feeling of dread, ennui, pulling yourself up to accomplish This One Task... coming home at the end of the day and feeling like you did nothing... all of that after awhile looks an awful lot like depression.

That's the way it was for me. I tried a few anti-depressants, and it didn't work right. Felt worse.

Once I was diagnosed with the ADD and started getting medication for that, things dramatically improved. Best part is that I'm not a little mouse in a wheel like I was worried about becoming. I'm not scared or as anxious about projects at work anymore. I can sit down and look at the household bills with a clear head. All of those things have kept me off the stairs with my head in my hands lately.

I'm sensitive about it because I still feel like I'm cheating somehow. I will say thought that damn, I might've graduated college instead of dropping out after two-and-a-half semesters had this been around.

But that feeling of dread, ennui, pulling yourself up to accomplish This One Task... coming home at the end of the day and feeling like you did nothing... all of that after awhile looks an awful lot like depression.

this rings so true for me it's sickening

ADD meds and antidepressants helped me survive 6 years of undergrad engineering classes, that's fer sure.

everything you just said pplains rings exactly true for me as well. Except I'm no longer feeling like it's a cheat. It took me a long time to come around to that, but I now don't think it's any more cheating than taking a round of antibiotics for tonsilitis is cheating; you are not well, and there's a clear way to get better, and other people aren't taking antibiotics because they don't have tonsilitis.

It's also valuable to realize that if you need to take add meds, then by taking them you're almost certainly making the lives of the people around you better. After I took them, I was able to repair the nearly-broken-beyond-repair relationship with my father which was largely spurred by the fact that he thought I was a good-for-nothing lazy so-and-so.

In my experience and opinion, depression and anxiety have generally followed ADD symptoms (e.g. I get depressed because I'm not following through on shit that should be easy to follow through on). At any rate, if you think you have a problem, see someone. It's the first step towards digging out of the quagmire.

(Says the dude who inadvisably went cold turkey off his ADD meds and his professional help at the worst time imaginable and still hasn't gotten it together enough to rebuild that bridge five years after the fact. Gah.)

amphetamines were advertised & prescribed as antidepressants back in the '60s

http://www.decodog.com/inven/MD/md28730.jpg

read the fascinating book On Speed for more info

Adderall changes lives. But if it stops changing yours after a while, if you don't lose the low points, go back again and don't be afraid to talk about bipolar disorder.
Mental health is an amazing thing and everybody should have it. Taking pills to have it is fucking awesome. It's not cheating, that's for sure.

I'm finding that being a middle school teacher requires a good amount of organizational and time management skills and I feel fucked

i really appreciate the encouragement, folks. to be clear, i don't feel there's any moral failing for getting treatment for mental health issues. being a caretaker was a huge challenge, in the sense that my brother's mood disorder / schizophrenia tended to make my own mental health concerns seem trivial in comparison, and also that his illness made it necessary for me to be well. i've come around from that view, and it figures that since there's a fair amount of MH issues in my family, it's probably unwise to think of myself as an exception.

my depression symptoms, while recurrent, have never been terribly severe, and definitely have a lot to do with feeling ineffectual and having trouble following through on tasks. comorbid adhd makes some sense, and the experience that pplains described really hit home.

many intriguing posts itt, i am recognizing myself in a lot here, i've never taken meds though or received a diagnosis (i've never really sought one tbh). i have been in therapy for 5 years and it has helped enormously with so many aspects of my life - self-esteem, self-care, sexuality, ability to articulate and connect with complex emotions, etc., but i my procrastination is off the fucking hook and pretty much has been forever. it's been particularly bad lately, like tasks that i am STRUGGLING to even initiate after weeks and weeks and pretending to colleagues that i am super busy with other stuff when i am really just struggling to get anything done at all. it's getting kind of fucked up, like colleagues are starting to notice (or at least i'm aware that they are noticing - i'm sure other colleagues have noticed in the past)

like i've always relied on the stress of the DEADLINE but in my work deadlines are pretty malleable for the most part and i just postpone and postpone and postpone. the number of times i've said in emails "sorry for the long delay, but i've been completely buried with other stuff recently" is little alarming. tbf to myself i do have a lot of personal shit going on, including parenting two young children (one w/ autism), balancing work/family/marriage/self-care, dealing w/ an in-law's heroin addiction but when i'm at work i am pretty much cruising ILX and other places on the internet

part of my career choice was definitely based on the realization that I need a lot of deadlines and structure to work well

I think I actually feel more guilt or shame about stuff like that than I do about medication -- it's like "I should just be able to create my own freelance career/run my own business/etc. Why can't I just do that shit? Why do I need to be a cog in a machine to function?"

I guess in that way I'm very susceptible to all that boomer/millennial mythology about finding your passion, designing your bespoke life, etc.

Cheating:

Maybe it's not a "gaming the system" or "playing unfair" kind of cheating I feel. Maybe I'm just not used to medicine that not only makes me feel better, but dramatically improves portions of my day-to-day life.

You take aspirin when you have a hangover and eventually return back to 0. You take chemo and feel like shit for six months to get back to a point where the good news may be, guess what, you're not going to die of a fatal disease this year. You take acid and see the universe, but your day-to-day definitely gets interrupted and then there are those darn back spasms.

With what I'm taking now, there is no downside. I sleep well at night. I'm capable of taking care of my shit during the day. If anything, I may have gotten a raise in the past year for taking on more projects.

There's still a depressive, fatalistic part of me down inside my guts somewhere, but most days, I don't even notice it's there and neither does anyone else. Except my wife.

I was in college in 1992. If someone had told me, "you can't get out of bed, walk to class, pay attention, study your chapter and prepare for a test? How about I give you a pill that will take care of that?" I wouldn't have belived it. And in some ways, I still can't wrap my head around it.

But shit works, p.

how do i go about getting diagnosis & treatment, if this is what's going on? i'm currently shopping for a new physician because i don't particularly care for / trust my current PCP, so i'm reluctant to go through him for a referral. there are mental health clinics around that accept my insurance but tbh i don't know what to look for in a MH care provider who's not a LCSW / therapist.

I went to a therapist at first. She referred me to the psychiatrist who now handles my prescription.

I picked the therapist basically from a generic online profile, like what you'd see on here. I think it kinda helped that everyone works for the same clinic. Even my pharmacy is in the same building. Instead of the psychiatrist having to leave a message on the Walgreens voicemail, they just walk it down the hall.

I don't even see the therapist anymore. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

btw when I said moral failing I meant guilt around not being able to "just get shit done".

I _still_ have huge issues with self-perception as a nogood lazy etc despite getting a lot of attaboys at work since i started treatment. but it's a lot better than it was.

patron sailor if you are already seeing a lcsw they can refer you to a psychiatrist

i am no longer in treatment with my lcsw therapist but i realized i have friends who work in behavioral health so i'll be looking to them for assistance here

I _still_ have huge issues with self-perception as a nogood lazy etc despite getting a lot of attaboys at work since i started treatment. but it's a lot better than it was.

Co-fuckin'-sign.

While taking Adderall I was fired from 2 jobs over 3 years. I've stopped for good now and the greatest parts are 1. I'm no longer late wherever I go and 2. A lot of lost memories are coming back which is down right glorious tbh

I'm finding that being a middle school teacher requires a good amount of organizational and time management skills and I feel fucked

― Treeship, Thursday, November 12, 2015 4:51 AM (17 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

omg hit me up via the emails so we can talk about this; I can help

Can't you two get samples from your students?

am i alone in thinking this thread is completely wtf omg, as far as the original posts go before the jump?
i assume people differently, now. . . ? (adhd isn't in my life, still, though).

people feel differently*

i vaguely want to defend it -- there was a cultural moment in the UK where ADHD was suddenly 'a thing' and there was a massive jump in infant diagnoses, without a large-scale response or plan being put in action as to how to train people to deal with it in education. so there was a lot of cynicism about it from the POVs of teaching and child-rearing. that said, the kind of outright denial of its existence seen upthread is kinda gross.

my first awareness of ADHD was private school classmates who used the diagnosis in the academic setting to have extended time for test-taking. diagnoses weren't as fully widespread as they later became, and all of these classmates came from wealthy families so there was a general sense, at least on my part, that any underachieving rich kid could essentially pay for the diagnosis & get a leg up on their peers. that's an uncharitable view of the condition, but it took a few years and having a college roommate with severe attention issues for me to accept that it could be a real thing.

i did well in school and always tested well, but i had really bad time management and procrastination habits and struggled to complete homework on time, which was generally ascribed by my parents and teachers to 'laziness' and lack of discipline.

How's it going, patron sailor? Did you seek help?

I think I have ADHD. Or maybe I'm just a lazy scatterbrain with an all-devouring internet addiction. I dunno.

Sometimes I fool myself: lazy + disorganised + forgetful + internet addiction + thought-derailing noise sensitivity + the thought "if I do badly everyone will think less of me" makes me freeze up on tasks = huh, that's a lot to add up, maybe ADHD wins by Occam's Razor! But obviously "lazy" and "internet addiction" are simpler than having a neurological disorder.

And I admit, I did well at school despite always forgetting to bring the right books with me, do the work on time, etc. If I remembered, I would usually get on with the work (although possibly largely due to my parents checking up on me, and always last-minute - if nothing was due the next day I'd take the evening off, no matter what else was looming). I don't remember being totally unable to concentrate despite wanting to until age 17+. But things went really off the rails at university, and I've never got it back together.

I miss deadlines at work. I'm always late for work. My home is permanently a cluttered mess. I have ideas and intentions and never seem to finish them - mostly I don't even start on them. If not for direct debit/standing orders I could never stay on top of bills. All this stuff runs in my dad's side of the family; I think I overheard that my uncle was recently diagnosed as ADHD, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were others.

But tbh I don't think the NHS would diagnose me anyway. They seem not keen on diagnosing it in adults, they emphasise hyperactivity and early childhood symptoms, and it's supposedly underdiagnosed in women. Plus I have a history of chronic depression (though this stuff is a problem no matter how my mood is) and I've worked at the same (underachiever-friendly) place for years rather than having the characteristic unstable work history, so those are two other things which might rule me out.

I'm mainly typing into the void, but if anyone has any thoughts or experience with adult diagnosis, esp in their 30s+ or as a woman or non-hyperactive or in the UK or despite any of the other impediments above, I'd be interested. Thanks. Sorry for tl;dr.

Feeling yr self-diagnosis so much tbh

I am currently sat at a table full of cluster with loads of empty booze bottles beneath it, next to the dog bowl. I grew up in a neighbour from hell type council-house abode and it all feels quite normal to me. My grandma had 20 odd cats and was an obsessive hoarder, my mother has less extreme but similar problems. I am sorry I can't offer any more to this thread other than just simple recognition. but can say with some confidence that you are definitely not alone APS and all the best to you.

Even yr username screams 'ADD' ('spacecadet' was my childhood nickname, too). Even if you never get anything from the NHS, I hope you remember to be kind to yrself

Also since it's been a while in this thread, I want to point out that ADD, depression, autism, bipolar and schizophrenia are now thought to be a cluster of related diseases with similar genetic profiles, though expressed differently. So there is nothing weird about being ADD *and* depressed

Huh, I didn't get the memo on that, but there you go!

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science-news/2013/new-data-reveal-extent-of-genetic-overlap-between-major-mental-disorders.shtml

The negative coheritability between ASD-ADHD seems to indicate that one my bigger hunches about these things may be correct

the first nowell

I am seeking treatment, btw. In fact I have an intake appointment with a psychiatrist this week, so we'll see how that all goes.

Good luck, ps!

I didn't get round to replying because I was trying to make my next post less tl;dr but thank you to everyone who replied to me.

So there is nothing weird about being ADD *and* depressed

Yeah, it seems many people are. When I've mentioned any of this stuff without the ADHD label to doctors/psychologists they've said it's all a symptom of depression but it def seems like cause/effect might also run the other way, and it never goes away even after months or years of mostly steadily OK mood - though it can get worse when I'm anxious or down, so worrying or hopelessness about not thinking straight or stuff not getting done sets up feedback loops.

btw I thought there was known genetic overlap btwn ASD/ADHD, plus sensory processing similarities between the two, but I'm not sure if the "negative coheritability" in that study says otherwise (for that known set of common genetic variations) or if "coheritability" has a more specific meaning than I'm thinking of. I am not good at parsing science-speak or even press release summaries thereof; too bad for a nerd

There was a negative correlation between diagnosis for ASD and ADHD and the genetic markers accompanying each. So subjects that had the markers most strongly correlated to ASD did NOT exhibit symptoms of ADHD, and vice versa.

Someone who does this for a living feel free to correct me.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/got-adhd-you-may-live-shorter-life-study-shows-n313011

I've been hit by cars, or nearly hit, a bunch of times. I usually spin this as a "fun" anecdote but I worry about it a lot.

that's why moving somewhere I don't have to drive is one of my life goals

i feel so fucked up about this.

i think in order to continue in my job, i need a robust plan, which at this stage in the game (i.e., i need immediate results) would probably involve medication.

but i don't want to take medication. i hated adderall so much when i was on it. i almost feel it would be worth not having a job that involved high levels of organization and preparation if it meant not having to take adderall.

like, i would give up a lot in order to not take adderall, or other adhd meds (i tried all of them). i like myself when i am not on it, but i find my thinking is jumbled all the time and it's hard for me to follow through with plans. when i took adderall, i would get straight A's and these issues pretty much disappeared (they were traded for other issues.)

I start a low therapeutic dose of Wellbutrin today, which I guess in addition to being useful for symptoms of depression might have a positive effect on my attention issues? here's hoping!

good luck, and good wishes to you Treesh, hope you find your best way forward soon

Good luck!!!

Update: Wellbutrin is pretty swell so far. It was mainly prescribed for my depressive symptoms but it's had a positive effect on attention stuff as well. I've been extremely on top of my work lately and have generally felt a positive boost in motivation, focus, & short term memory. Have managed to keep on top of the 2x day dosage. At times I've felt a little edgy & speedy but nothing bad. Feeling very positive about this so far!

I'm taking welbutrin and vyvanse. Did you try that one treeship? It's meth and it's good.
My motivation is still quite bad because some days i lie in bed after work. Maybe I need to lower my nightly seroquel dose and uh excercise and eat right.

ADD meds (in my case vyvanse), help with many symptoms but my hyperfocus is as robust as ever - I'm terrific at menial labor!

I can associate with Mr. Roboto and I can say for fact that he is notdoing jobs that nobody wants to. Those jobs are being done by Mexican construction workers

I wonder if huge ammounts of coffeee = mild adderall?

No. Nicotine has an observably similar impact on brain function as Ritalin, though (as does cocaine. I can dig up the paper if anyone doubts my rationale for fueling the work day with bumps and drags.)

Yes and no. None of these things are the same. Some of them have similar effects. Talk to your doctor if you think drugs might be right for you. If you feel like you're using caffeine, alcohol or nicotine for self-medicating purposes, also talk to your doctor, because that can have effects.

Well, I've been drinking huge amounts of caffeine for many years now so it would basically be hard to tell at this point what life is like WITHOUT it.

Pretty much from age 16 on - always caffeinated! And then when I worked in a cafe once they taught how to make it even stronger!

Yet it never makes me jittery or have trouble sleeping.

I believe in science to I believe ADHD is real, and its too bad there is not a more cut and dry test for it like a bloodtest or something because it seems like society still sees it like "he's just a bad student" or "she's just a naughty space cadet" or "if he had better parents...." but really its a biological brain difference between adhd and normal kids.

Caffeine exacerbates my ability to be distracted; meds allow me to focus a lot better

i could be totally wrong about this (not a doctor etc) but caffeine has a lower brain toxicity threshold whereas amphetamine requires larger doses for toxicity to occur

all depends on water and food intake. i've had some of the worst times of my life and have done very dangerous rash things while on adderall without having had enough water or food. :\

interesting I thought the adderall was supposed to inhibit impulsive behavior

it can make you unreasonably certain of your own rightness

tbrr people have stopped talking to me irl because of things i've posted here on ilx while i was zooming. :\

I have been reading abotu adhd and i read that that can happen due to impulsivity of adhd - the regretted things blurted out or typed and enter is hit

sp - ideal jobs for ADHD people?

lawyer

I have read that IT world is full of adhd people- must be all the dual core processors? multi taksing?

DJ

I don;t know how anyone with ADHD can work at a job where access to the internet exists and not just spend all day distracted by WEB WORLDWIDE

I've already read everything

http://www.chadd.org/understanding-adhd/for-adults/workplace-issues.aspx

a pretty good read

what are the steps one one takes to determine whether they have ADD/ADHD? just talk to my doctor?

I think any kind of mental health professional can diagnose, but only an actual psychiatrist can prescribe. It may take some shopping around to find someone who's able to provide efficacious extra-medicinal therapy in that arena (my meds doctor is, respectfully, useless in that particular arena).

You're diagnosed based on your self-reported symptoms and the degree to which they negatively affect your life over the long term... there are some tests too but since there's no single bio mechanism for ADHD, it's a bit of a subjective decision no matter what.

In my case, after self-reporting I took a cognitive assessment, and was determined to have ADD based on having lower scores in some tasks compared to others.

i just started therapy again on monday and one of the things we are going to look into is whether i have add/adhd. i strongly suspect i do, it has taken a long time to figure this out but when i reflect back on how i've managed (or failed to manage) different tasks, obligations, and goals there are pretty clear patterns that have been present since i was a kid. so i am happy that i am finally going to look into this and determine what would help me.

what have you found to be helpful? do you take medications? do they help? are they harmful?

Best of luck, marcos. ADD diagnosis was the most revelatory thing ever for me and gave me a starting point for tackling any number of issues I'd previously seen as disparate and unrelated.

I am on Ritalin, I've personally found it to be stunningly helpful, and I've suffered nothing more serious than occasional dry mouth from having taken it.

A protip I discovered for myself: upload a white noise mp3 onto your music player of choice and utilize it anytime you feel your attention is compromised by auditory distractions.

thanks old lunch and good to hear about your positive experience w/ ritalin!

One bonus with the Rit is that it's technically 'use as needed'. I maintain a regular regimen but you can go on and off it without having to worry about side effects. Which is a consideration that has always made me wary of antidepressants.

I work in an open plan office, which is...a strain at the best of times, but I can safely assert that it would be an unmanageable situation for me without medication.

My son was diagnosed with ADHD by a developmental pediatrician at age, um, three? Three is way early, but it made sense at the time.

This is on top of his existing genetic intellectual disability (https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/KDM5C#conditions) He's in constant motion, very impulsive, hampered from learning by short attention span. He's almost seven now: nonverbal, epileptic, with sleep apnea and general developmental delays.

For a while we thought treating the ADHD would help the other areas (chill him out, give him ways to catch up developmentally). His week or so on Adderall was a screaming, destructive nightmare, so we took him off that.

Currently he has Clonidine for ADHD and Trileptal for seizures. Both need to be given at bedtime (they just put him to sleep otherwise), and we are seeing very positive results. Better behavior, more reading and writing, getting closer to toilet-training. When in noisy situations we've started giving him earplugs to reduce the overstimulation; that seems to be helping.

Some of the impulsiveness is diminishing - last week he drank from an open cup without spilling on purpose. He's getting through the school day without potty accidents (but hasn't transferred that to home yet). In my world that constitutes progress.

check yr email marcos

I was diagnosed with ADD (or ADHD inattentive-type ) when I was a teen. Put me on Ritalin, which didn't make much of a difference because I wasn't actually trying to DO ANYTHING back then. I didn't care about doing good in school, so even if I was on the right kind of medicine, I wasn't applying myself toward anything. Stopped taking Ritalin after a year or two and just went about my life to mixed results.

I recently came across all this old paperwork where the psychiatrist was discussing my diagnosis and it hit me with stunning clarity - this is a huge part of why my life is still so ramshackle as I'm approaching 40. Now that I can see the connections between this diagnosis and my behavior and the things that are going on inside my brain, I really want to get back into treatment for it. I'm currently using all my medical money to pay for braces for my kid though. Some day.

Regarding ritalin though, I'm scared to try it. I also have a huge insomnia problem and I'm worried a stimulant could make that go badly.

most ritalin variants don't last super long in your lboodstream, the type they usually start you on is like... 4 hours? when i started on it i took one to wake up and another around lunch to get me thru the day. no sleeping problems, if anyting the "down" made sleeping easier. search my name on this thread for more of my thoughts on it, all of it stands except for holy fuck i am so much fatter and older than i was then (that was 2007?!)

seems to be basically impossible to get a diagnosis in the uk unless your an upper-middle class naughty child

I sent more specifics in my email marcos, but one thing I will say I have found really useful is that, since ADD is often triggered by anxiety, try to identify the source of the anxiety. Sometimes it is a specific thing you need to get done that you are apprehensive about doing, and when you do that thing, it unblocks you and makes it easier to concentrate on other things.

check yr email marcos

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Wednesday, April 4, 2018 2:58 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thank you!

ymp <3

ADD and anxiety and depression are most definitely comorbid ime, and it can be difficult at times to determine which is triggering which. I know from my own experience that the frustration of trying to overcome the ADD symptoms (or dwelling on the extent to which I'm failing to do so) can often trigger the other two.

I take 10mg of Ritalin twice a day and it doesn't affect my sleep at all. They're my 'getting stuff done at work' and 'getting stuff done after work' doses, and the latter has plenty of time to fade away before bedtime.

Cool. Good info.

I started seeing a psychiatrist for clinical depression years ago and tried several different anti-depressants to no avail, stopped drinking and drugs altogether and suffered until one day in desperation, I took one of my son's Vyvanse and suddenly everything changed. My wife noticed a change within hours. I was finally paying attention to her. I think my ADHD manifested itself as depression because whenever I wasn't engaged in something that held my interest, my thoughts would turn to how terrible everything was. I've been on vyvanse and Lexapro for around 5 years since. my psychiatrist wasn't aware of a connection between depression & ADHD at the time, but was of the mindset that whatever works to combat depression is worthwhile. And since both my father and son were diagnosed as ADHD, it made sense that I would have it too.

ymp that does sound like progress. part of the impetus for questioning whether i have adhd has been the work we're doing w/ my two sons - the older one w/ autism and the younger one, if not autism, then prob ADHD or at least some autism traits. thinking about some of their challenges, the genetic overlap, and considering okay yea that might make sense when i think about my life too

I had a lot of trouble sleeping on Ritalin, which was ultimately why I stopped taking it. Just to add another perspective. It was still worth taking for a brief period of time, just for the confidence boost. It permanently changes your sense of what is possible when you are able to easily do things that you formerly had struggled with, and (for me at least) you stop thinking of failure in moral terms, and more as a practical matter of inputs and outputs.

It was a very bad idea for me to take it regularly, although of course everyone is different.

i was just diagnosed this morning. i had a few appointments with an attention disorder specialist, we did a bunch of tests over the past few weeks. it feels like a relief to now be starting treatment

hardest part was taking the TOVA test under instructions to avoid my regular coffee intake this morning, it was really not fun let me tell you

inattentiveness is generally much more of a problem for me than hyperactivity or impulsivity, all the self-reports and questionnaires indicated that but the TOVA test indicated much bigger problems w/ impulsivity

It permanently changes your sense of what is possible when you are able to easily do things that you formerly had struggled with, and (for me at least) you stop thinking of failure in moral terms, and more as a practical matter of inputs and outputs.

reading things like this have made me so hopeful about medication, we'll see how it works out but i am just tired of not being able to do things that i want to. like read a book. i haven't read a book cover-to-cover in about 8 years. i read a lot but that prospect of reading something from beginning to end has always seemed like a truly impossible task for me

Feels weird to congratulate someone on an ADD diagnosis, but I guess at least congratulations on taking those first steps.

I just finished the 3000-pg., 3-volume MLK biography. A minor accomplishment for some but it's totally not a thing I would've had the focus or wherewithal to stick with pre-meds. Reading stuff for college took me FOREVER and involved ensconcing myself in the most quiet and remote library carrels I could find. Now I read on a crowded commuter train without an issue. You can get there, dude.

I'm on pretty much the same ADD tip as you, sounds like. I honestly kinda wish I'd gotten a little bit of the hyperactivity so that, y'know, adults might've noticed something was up and gotten me treatment as a kid rather than just assuming I was being a PITA slacker whose output was irregularly correlative with his ability.

I honestly kinda wish I'd gotten a little bit of the hyperactivity so that, y'know, adults might've noticed something was up and gotten me treatment as a kid rather than just assuming I was being a PITA slacker whose output was irregularly correlative with his ability.

haha otm

thanks old lunch

see that is amazing about that 3000 pg book. 100 pages has been overwhelming for me. even long form articles take me a few days to read right now.

Good luck marcos! Congratulations on taking these steps.

I had always written my loss of interest in reading as a result of forcing myself through too much literature in college. But of course the pre-existing ADD is probably a huge component.

OL, I wasn't stealing your congratulations btw. It just took me a while to formulate that post.

It's an incredible bummer when you feel like you have to force yourself to stick with a thing you enjoy doing, and incredibly disheartening when you reflect on how many enjoyable things you've ultimately discarded as a result.

No worries, buddy.

first day on adderall, this feels super weird! it is a stimulant obv but everything feels slowed down so much. like i can do one thing at a time deliberately and mindfully. living and making decisions deliberately, god that has felt so elusive to me. i just sat through two hours of meetings and didn't have to open my laptop at all or fidget in my seat or hop around to a million places online just to survive the meetings. i was able to listen and be an active participant.

I'm jealous. Haven't been able to talk to a doctor about going back on medication yet, but I'm definitely keeping it in mind.

Oh yeah, meetings! That's one of those things I take for granted these days. Just got out of one. Painful, boring, the works. Sat alert and attentive (if ultimately uninterested as hell) the whole time.

I guess this is only semi-relevant, but I was watching the movie Heat for the first time and I really liked this quote from Pacino's character: "I gotta hold on to my angst. I preserve it because I need it. It keeps me sharp, on the edge, where I gotta be."

I was thinking that that's a big part of overcoming ADHD for me is figuring out what motivates me and then holding onto that. Sometimes it's a false sense of danger, sometimes it's a need to please others, but whenever I have the motivation I work much better and focus harder.

Do you feel like if you didn't need to work or fulfill any social obligations, ADHD would still be something to overcome?