So, are we watching the Debate tonight?

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Well, are we?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:36 (twenty-one years ago)

"debate"

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, they're calling it a debate.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

No. I am going to see Rilo Kiley with Sarah (which was one of her bday presents) and I probably wouldn't be watching it if we were going to be home, as it means nothing, especially to me, and would probably just piss me off.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I am.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I too will watch the event though I will undoubtedly be fortified.

― Michael White (Hereward), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:55 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm gonna drink beer and watch it. and then spit my beer out probably. i dunno, it's gonna be depressing. unless something really weird happens. which is doubtful.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I am, but I don't know why. For the anger/humor I guess.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Beer is definitely key.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I am going to Gabbneb's to drink beer and cheer on the home team.

― don carville weiner, Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm going to watch because I love 1) getting angry and 2) talking monkeys.

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, I probably will, if the reception comes in on my TV. (It's a shitty TV that I never actually watch.) I will be drinking beer. Then I will probably watch a movie about Swedish teenage lesbians.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Apparently they won't be able to address each other directly. What the fuck's up with that?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

The candidates I mean....not the Swedish teenage lesbians.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:03 (twenty-one years ago)

no TV.. surely it's being webcast?

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know. They're showing it on the big-screen TV at a bar in Hoboken.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:09 (twenty-one years ago)

MSNBC.com will air the debate live in a Webcast from 9 to 10:30 p.m. ET.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:10 (twenty-one years ago)

it will be on the radio. npr. i think.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:10 (twenty-one years ago)

from the commentary on NPR this evening, sounds like the "can't address each other" rule will be easily skirted.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:12 (twenty-one years ago)

How so?

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:14 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm heading to Sabala's on Mt Tabor to get pissed and watch it with the rest of the punks on the big screen. Hopefully, they'll run the live Daily Show recap afterwards...

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:23 (twenty-one years ago)

-If they break the rules, there's no consequence.
-They can also answer in such a way that the other candidate will be compelled to answer, even though they aren't supposed to.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

take a shot whenever either candidate bursts out laughing at the ludicrous of one of the responses...

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

So, anyone know any webcasts, or when they start? I tried the MSNBC one, and all I could find was a couple minute programme of a woman telling me obvious things about the debate. Is C-Span streaming it? Or, if like me you are in the UK, is BBC Parliament airing it? They aired the conventions so...Anyway, maybe the MSNBC one works and I'm an idiot, in which case could I get directions?

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:50 (twenty-one years ago)

You may have to wait until the debates actually start.

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, okay. Thanks.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

What's with the crazy backdrop??
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/debate.main/vert.tech.prep.ap.jpg

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:54 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.sundazed.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/tmensurfbd.gif

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:56 (twenty-one years ago)

It's either a desperate bid for respectability or the fronting of "Doc Smith's Olde Granary and Lemonade Stand"

xpost

― You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Is that what a 'surfin bird' is behind the speaker?

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Oop. X-post. Sorry for rubbishly stealing joke.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:59 (twenty-one years ago)

the union and the constitution forever?

― still bevens (bscrubbins), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I will be watching it.

― The Bitter Tears Of Little Lord Travolta (nordicskilla), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm "debating" whether to watch it, heh

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm so thin-skinned and easily angered by political things, i don't know if i could stomach it actually.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

watching george w. bush attempt to speak knowledgably about things is always a powerful reminder of his total heeldom

― You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

- Every time President Bush says the word "safer," take a drink. If he uses the word "democracy" in the same sentence, make it a double.

- For every John Kerry reference to the UN, have a drink.

- If Bush uses the phrase "compassionate conservative," you must chug your entire beverage.

- Take one drink for every three times Kerry points with his left hand.

- Any previously recorded Bushism, like "misunderestimate" or "subliminable," used by the president during the debate requires one drink.

- If Kerry exceeds the time limit for any response, take a drink.

- Back-to-back offenses require a double shot and a NoDoz.

A reference by your candidate to any of the following requires one drink:

1) Florida

2) North Korea

3) Axis of evil

4) Saddam Hussein

5) The American people

- And for an exciting twist on the game, anytime anybody mentions the word "Vietnam," everybody has to take a drink.

In this game, everyone's a winner. At worst, you'll reach the end of the debate experiencing a warm, pleasant buzz. But if you're really lucky, you'll pass out by 10 o'clock and won't have to listen to the closing statements. Cheers!

― Professor Challenger (ex machina), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

...And there is a by-election is Britain today - it's a world of polirical fun!

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

- Every time you are drafted into the Army and sent to some desert to kill people, CHUG.

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Boy, looking at Bush here, maybe he should've demanded a shorter podium.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/debate.main/vert.tech.prep.ap.jpg

I'm going over to a friend's house so that I won't have to fight the rabbit ears. I have low expectations, but I'm hoping for the best. As I understand it from the good guys, hope is on the way. Or maybe it's help. I know that I can't get that Little River Band song out of my head.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Boy, looking at Bush here, maybe he should've demanded a shorter podium.

WTF?

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:42 (twenty-one years ago)

And he shoulda worn a better suit.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:50 (twenty-one years ago)

it's on, live, here.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Does it qualify as "comedy"?

― The Bitter Tears Of Little Lord Travolta (nordicskilla), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Is it like Rollins where you don't know if you are meant to laugh or "take notes"?

― The Bitter Tears Of Little Lord Travolta (nordicskilla), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Or be kind of creeped out.

― The Bitter Tears Of Little Lord Travolta (nordicskilla), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Not to imply a sense of entitlement, but I'm at work so a descriptive blow-by-blow rather than stuff like "WHAT?!" and "WOW! DID HE JUST DO THAT?" would be appreciated.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 30 September 2004 22:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm off to see Q And Not U, so I'll be taping the debate. Should I program it to NBC, CBS, ABC or FOX (my CNN feed is too crappy)?

― alex in montreal, Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:23 (twenty-one years ago)

the IM chat is up & going.

join the chat "FUN MIT DER DEBATES"

xpost program it to cspan...

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:25 (twenty-one years ago)

No cspan in my area, just the ones I listed.

― alex in montreal, Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd say NBC or ABC. As CBS is evidently chickenshit city after the big memo foul-up and Fox is well, Fox News

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:30 (twenty-one years ago)

OH NO THE FUCK. CNN HAS ASSEMBLED TWENTY OR SO ~~HUMAN GUINEA PIGS~~UNDECIDED VOTERS WITH INDIVIDUAL "RATE-O-TRONS" TO MARK THE CANDIDATES' "PERFORMANCES" IN REAL TIME. No reflection allowed!! Talk about vanity - CNN not only makes a room full of from what I saw mostly nonplussed representative people (our grinning bespectacled host started describing them, and the cameras pick out individual faces in the crowd to illustrate his description - "men and women," - flash from man to woman - flash to black guy - "uh, old and young" - camera flashes to an old guy - totally whiffed!) make the same snap kneejerk judgements that CNN considers its contribution to the public understanding of this race. And strokes our vanity, too, by feeding it back to us as what "we" think.

― You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Wild Blitzer keeps saying it's a "face-off" and gives us the T-minus before they cut away to commercial (to make sure you watch em.) Everyone saying Kerry has to invent a cure for cancer onstage or he's toast. So awful. I want my cuddly CNN International commentators back, these guys are scary.

― You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, we watchin

― *abbneb, Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I liked the PBS guy's MOR banter.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I think he was PBS anyway. Announcer fellow. Chairman.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I'm watching it on PBS. (Don't have cable.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Moderator: Jim Lehrer

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 30 September 2004 23:59 (twenty-one years ago)

CSPAN.org wil undoubtedly run it, but it will also undoubtedly be swamped and have connection problems.

It's on like Donkey Kong...

― Joshua Houk (chascarrillo), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm watching on CSPAN - it seems fine. (Lehrer, eh? 'Moderator' makes me think of the Church of Scotland)

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

It's on. Kerry's busy sucking up to Lehrer and Florida.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

"Yes I do, but before I answer...."

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

No fireworks so far.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey! Split screen! I thought they weren't going to do that.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Lots of pauses for Bush.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry seems quite convincing though - understated, but confident.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:04 (twenty-one years ago)

weapons of mass destruction!

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush: "uh...line!"

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know: Kerry didn't really stay on message for that answer. If Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, then why did Kerry respond about stopping 9/11-type terrorist attacks by mentioning what he'll do in Iraq?

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, he's losing it! hahaaa.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm listening on NPR.

Kerry's already fucked up. Question was about war on terror, and he starts talking about Iraq--thus losing the point that the Iraq war isn't part of the war on terror.

― Marcel Post (Marcel Post), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:06 (twenty-one years ago)

the format of this debate = craptacular

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:06 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost

― Marcel Post (Marcel Post), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Wait...the first question was "John Kerry, can you make America safer", and the second question was, "George Bush, will John Kerry make America less safe?" Why are both questions so far about Kerry?

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush sounds uncertain. Typically.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:07 (twenty-one years ago)

"If Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, then why did Kerry respond about stopping 9/11-type terrorist attacks by mentioning what he'll do in Iraq?"

But there is terrorists there *now*, so I guess it could be argued...you're probably right though. I thought Bush meant another terrorist attack when he said "I don't think it's gonna happen".

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:07 (twenty-one years ago)

This better pick up.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Fuck, is Kerry quoting Bush 2001 exactly!?

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:08 (twenty-one years ago)

what do you mean dan?

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush sounds uncertain

yes but he thikns of the children.

― :|, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:09 (twenty-one years ago)

(Translation: Alex is waiting for Lemmy to come out, shove Bush aside and start growling the lyrics of "Orgasmatron.")

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Osama just got his first shoutout.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Ugh, the camera angles make it look like Kerry is looking left and Bush is looking straight.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:09 (twenty-one years ago)

(Translation: Alex is waiting for Lemmy to come out, shove Bush aside and start growling the lyrics of "Orgasmatron.")

I'd be well into that.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Agh, why didn't I leave the computer in the same room as the tv?

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's warmin' up.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush has much better lighting too.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:10 (twenty-one years ago)

kerry is absolutely kicking ass

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Split screen on CNN. Full screen on MSNBC (we have two sets here).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:11 (twenty-one years ago)

"Kerry is looking left" - I wish.

"As someone who has been in combat..."

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:11 (twenty-one years ago)

$200 billion, that's truly disgusting

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:11 (twenty-one years ago)

PBS ain't showin' the split-screen; I've switched to NBC.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Second citing of Osama. By Kerry.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Is that including the stutter?

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

SAY 'OSAMA', GEORGE, SAY IT!!!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

keryy has a number fetish and messes the naems up OH NO

― :|, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

"pre-Sept 10th mentality"

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Lehrer just said "Osama". Why can't George?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:13 (twenty-one years ago)

How many times is Bush going to say "the world is safer without Saddam Hussein"?

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:13 (twenty-one years ago)

"Saddam....I mean Bin Laden"

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

roffle! he doesn't know who we're after!

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

The Florida line was classic bad Kerry for most of the country, but smart for FL - ppl are nuts there now. If you watched only the first question, response and rebuttal, Kerry won, hands down.

Not to be too crazy, but Kerry is almost directly quotin* lines I sent him

― *abbneb, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry better start talking more about dead troops.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is floundering.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

None of this is going to matter, of course. The increasingly polarized media will simply spin the points they choose to spin.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:15 (twenty-one years ago)

"The Iraqis are ready to fight for their freedom"

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:15 (twenty-one years ago)

How does "spending reconstruction money" mean anything good? It's actual reconstruction that's the point.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if anyone in the whole country is listening earnestly to their words instead of judging their acting.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes! Dead troops. Stay on it.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

"This president -- I don't know if he even sees what's happening there!"

TESTIFY!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Ugh, the camera angles make it look like Kerry is looking left and Bush is looking straight.

Actually, I just realized that's not camera angles; Kerry's just looking almost exclusively at Lehrer and not at the audience. Bad move.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

best shot Kerry's got in so far: "[Bush] changed his mind...his campaign has a word for that"

― Al (sitcom), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I wish Kerry would lean on the lectern more. Look closer and less stiff.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry should stand on thr lectern. And point.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's finding his stride now.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't like Kerry's answer about what he'd do different. Talk Iraq dude.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:19 (twenty-one years ago)

J.K.'s swingin' hard here. I hope some of it's connecting.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:19 (twenty-one years ago)

his answer seemed muddled

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:20 (twenty-one years ago)

cspan has split screen coverage of both candidates at all times.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's just got to stop dragging all these oddball issues into it.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is on the defensive.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

i think bush leaning on the lecturn makes him look too casual, actually.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's just got to stop dragging all these oddball issues into it.

otm

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm not seeing this, but how do you not trounce bush in a debate?

i know five year olds that would comfortably nail his ass in front of a crowd.

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i think bush leaning on the lecturn makes him look too casual, actually.

Yeah, but people like that.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:22 (twenty-one years ago)

More pauses bush! Keep em coming! Make them longer and more uncomfortable!

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush....losing.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:22 (twenty-one years ago)

the people like casual
xpost

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha, you're right Alex, but tell that to all the pundits afterwards.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:23 (twenty-one years ago)

bush looks scared! on tv!

― :|, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry should talk about Colin Powell saying the other day that it's getting way worse in Iraq.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry will be above 50 percent after this

― *abbneb, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm not seeing this, but how do you not trounce bush in a debate?

i know five year olds that would comfortably nail his ass in front of a crowd.

i want to think so, too. but i fear that what we see as incoherent floundering goes over as "folksy charm"...

― the krza (krza), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:24 (twenty-one years ago)

"a nation of that's free"

― Al (sitcom), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:24 (twenty-one years ago)

The increasingly polarized media

i think the media is reflecting the country in this case. i have never gotten in more bitter and nasty political fights than during 2000-2004.

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i can't stand it when bush half shrugs.

Kerry will be above 50 percent after this
man, i hope so.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is just not very well-spoken. And that's inexcusable in a leader.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:25 (twenty-one years ago)

what pisses me off is that by the time i get to see this in the morning, it'll have been edited with extra spin.

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:25 (twenty-one years ago)

god, no matter how badly bush does he's still gonna "win". people suck. nuke america. now.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush sr. invoked.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't know, once Bush remembers his lines, he does pretty good. :(

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Nice work: using his dad against him.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

"folksy charm" yeah - i don't even know how to judge what morons who like bush would respond to

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

xxxpost

"invoked"

my god, is he a registered deity now?

the mind shudders.....

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's kicking butt.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

go Kerry!

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

you're repeating yourself georgey

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha, Bush wants a follow up and then he fucks it up.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:27 (twenty-one years ago)

kerry quoting bush sr while dubya looks like schoolboy in reaction shots = election won. crosspost

― :|, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:27 (twenty-one years ago)

i want to see bush vs eminem in an mc contest.

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:27 (twenty-one years ago)

OOh! HE SAID VIETNAM!!!

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:27 (twenty-one years ago)

god, no matter how badly bush does he's still gonna "win". people suck. nuke america. now.

CUT THAT FUCKING NOISE RIGHT NOW.

Look at this point it's not about winning votes. It's about inspiring people to mobilize on your side and hoping the others will be too tired to bother. KERRY IS KICKING BUSH'S ASS RIGHT NOW. Bush looks like a short nixonian fuck and his supporters will dwindle because of it (the taller candidate has always won since televised debates started). This should be reminding you how obvious Kerry is the better and make you feel better about voting. So can the fatalistic bullshit end already?

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry invoking Vietnam!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:27 (twenty-one years ago)

He really shouldn't do that. People hate it.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:28 (twenty-one years ago)

balsy

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's on fire now.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I really wish people could think for themselves and react with what they think is right rather than presuming the worst about the rest of the nation. The people who are thinking should be the LEAST chickenshit.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, very good line about invading Mexico for Pearl Harbor.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:29 (twenty-one years ago)

fuck yeah. he is beating the shit out of him right now. bush keeps tightening his lips. he's looking a bit out of sorts.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:29 (twenty-one years ago)

god, no matter how badly bush does he's still gonna "win". people suck. nuke america. now.
CUT THAT FUCKING NOISE RIGHT NOW.

-- manthony m1cc1o (anthonyisrigh...), October 1st, 2004.

ok, ok. but can we still nuke america?

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is getting upset now. Heheheh.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is winded.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry seems to be enjoying this romping

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Invoke Poland! ROFLMAO

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, nuke texas. and downing street!

and highbury....

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe, lb. and my line should be it's not about swayingvotes. Most people are already decided who they'd vote for...if they didn't have to get off their ass to do it (the problem with polls).

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:31 (twenty-one years ago)

"i sit down with the world leaders.....frequently!"

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:31 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.oneposter.com/UserData/Poster/Poster_4975.jpg

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:31 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah he's completely upset. he looks like a bratty berated kid.

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:31 (twenty-one years ago)

What the fuck is bush talking about right now. Japanese summits, wtf.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:31 (twenty-one years ago)

"yeah he's completely upset. he looks like a bratty berated kid. "

the best description of GWB ever?

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:32 (twenty-one years ago)

"Actually you forgot Poland" !!!!

I'm dying with laughter.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:32 (twenty-one years ago)

HONOR POLAND MOTHERFUCKER

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:32 (twenty-one years ago)

WE FORGOT POLAND

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is punchdrunk.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I like the idea of Japan as a kind of debt collector.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry lost the Polish vote.

― Marcel Post (Marcel Post), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Japanese summits, wtf.

hahaha the kyoto treaty?

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:32 (twenty-one years ago)

more uuuuuuuuuuuuuuh sadaam loyalists uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is starting to breathe heavily. Is he going to break down?

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:33 (twenty-one years ago)

uh, the miscalculation was that we thought they'd fight us. duhhh.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:33 (twenty-one years ago)

ihttp://lutkus.com/germany/poland.jpg

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:33 (twenty-one years ago)

"I see on the TV screens how hard it is."

― Marcel Post (Marcel Post), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:33 (twenty-one years ago)

what an ass.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:33 (twenty-one years ago)

realistic & optimistic.

Rhyming slang!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

The plan says stick with the plan even if it's wrong.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm refusing to watch - two guys running scripted lines without saying anything new or interesting, no thanks - but I find the reactions funny. Whichever side you're on is who's winning. I'm sure that out there on red-state.com, some folks are like "that durn haughty New Englander FORGOT POLAND!"

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

there's a summit in my pants

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

how many times is he going to say it's "hard work"! wtf!!

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:35 (twenty-one years ago)

you're the president asshole!

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush looks like he's about to start crying.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush, SHUT UP ABOUT IRAQ CUTTING PEOPLE'S HANDS OFF. *WE* TORTURE PEOPLE AND YOU KNOW ABOUT IT, MOTHERFUCKER.

― snazz, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:36 (twenty-one years ago)

90% casualties. 90% the cost.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:36 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~moz/pictures/lost.png

Karl Rove

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry: "PWN PWN PWN"
Bush: "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........."

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I hate to say it, but I feel like Bush's critique of Kerry as sending mixed signals to the international community will resonate with the American public. Kerry's at a big disadvantage because he has to talk about why invading Iraq was a bad idea, but then also give his plans for securing peace.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry caarrrefully sidesteps the "L" word.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:37 (twenty-one years ago)

kerry is a man!!!!

― Professor Challenger (ex machina), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:37 (twenty-one years ago)

"nuclear weapons that didn't exist" says kerry. nice one

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:38 (twenty-one years ago)

is bush building a paper airplane?

― kephm, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:38 (twenty-one years ago)

LONGER THAN THIS PRESIDENT

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:38 (twenty-one years ago)

watching it, with ally and cathy.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:38 (twenty-one years ago)

You know at the end of this Bush'll just flash his right boob at everyone and nobody's gonna remember a damn thing Kerry said.

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:38 (twenty-one years ago)

"we did not. go. as a last resort." great

― :|, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:38 (twenty-one years ago)

That would be a brilliant move. Build a paper airplane, throw it at Kerry's head and scream "REMEMBER 9/11 FLIP-FLOPPER?"

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I DECIDED

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:39 (twenty-one years ago)

t/s: cutting ppl's hands off vs. televised beheadings

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Bitch niggers fight back, get played

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I miss you, tombot.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:40 (twenty-one years ago)

You know at the end of this Bush'll just flash his right boob at everyone and nobody's gonna remember a damn thing Kerry said.

he doesn't even need to go that far. he just needs to shrug and be like, awwww...shucks.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:40 (twenty-one years ago)

flip flop flipper

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush's posture says failure.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:41 (twenty-one years ago)

how stupid to act like the enemy can't decide your policy. you have to make policy based on what the enemy does.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:41 (twenty-one years ago)

"Every life is precious."

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I have no cable! And no antenna even! All I can do is sit on the sidelines and heckle aimlessly!

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 00:41 (twenty-one years ago)

"rid the world of weapons of mass destruction?" says bush. is he serious? do people actually believe him when he says that?

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

every sperm is sacred....

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, Bush is doing that shoutout to specific people and places thing that I hate so much when they do.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

he doesn't give a shit about these little people - maybe this is too hard for him

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Uh oh, here come the waterworks.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is dusting off the anecdotal allusion. Bad move. "We prayed, teared up and laughed some."

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

did he just say "it's hard work to love her as best i can"???!

― the krza (krza), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, now the response here is a good place for Kerry to do the battlefield thing -- "I know what the real cost of war is, I've seen it," something along those lines.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:43 (twenty-one years ago)

he did.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:43 (twenty-one years ago)

"rid the world of weapons of mass destruction?" says bush. is he serious? do people actually believe him when he says that?

his goal is to make them think that wmd's only existed in iraq. uh...north korea? shrug.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:43 (twenty-one years ago)

you must deal with things before they materialize

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry is salivating

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:43 (twenty-one years ago)

right now the time is apt for some right boob showing

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush does seem to give this overall impression of "Hey man, it's a tough job. I'm doin' the best I can." I can't tell whether that's good or bad.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:43 (twenty-one years ago)

There ya go.

― Marcel Post (Marcel Post), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's constant allusions to his service in the armed forces....a low but palpable blow.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is a girly-man

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:44 (twenty-one years ago)

yes! don't confuse the war with the warriors! good one.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:44 (twenty-one years ago)

his goal is to make them think that wmd's only existed in iraq. uh...north korea? shrug.

worldwide nuclear proliferation that has been going on for decades?

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:44 (twenty-one years ago)

saying "that war" instead of Vietnam = smart

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:44 (twenty-one years ago)

bush just did a lot of blinking when kerry was talking about the nobility of going to war.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Not confusing the war with the warriors!!!!! That's it!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Nice line.

"More of the same."

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:45 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, uh, heh heh, i, uh...

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:45 (twenty-one years ago)

ouch. please don't say "hunt & kill"

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:45 (twenty-one years ago)

right -- wrong place

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm sure it's very, very difficult for bush to keep sending anonymous cannon fodder out so that he can desperately attempt to save face.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:45 (twenty-one years ago)

iraq is a right wrong place.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush keeps going back to the "grand diversrion" comment.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:46 (twenty-one years ago)

who votes for this guy?

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:46 (twenty-one years ago)

"More of the same."

Carville all up in this bitch.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:46 (twenty-one years ago)

bush just cannot debate him in real time. he comes back to kerry's past words over and over again. kerry just keeps hammering him over and over and bush's only response is the same fucking thing over and over and over. it's incredible.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:46 (twenty-one years ago)

"I have a plan to do it -- he doesn't!"

Fuck yeah!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush seems so exasperated with that "how can you change positions???" line -- he's said it like five times so far.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Good moment - but lottery barn? Are they sponsoring Kerry?

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush seems so exasperated with that "how can you change positions???" line -- he's said it like five times so far.

it's all he's got.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:47 (twenty-one years ago)

israel?

― phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:48 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm waiting for bush to break down crying screaming 'why do you hate freedom so much'

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:48 (twenty-one years ago)

In those reaction shots, Bush looks exactly like my mental image of the word "twerp."

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:48 (twenty-one years ago)

"ooooops"

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's juggling flaming plates manfully. Bush is flummoxed like he's been de-pantsed at a fire drill.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Hard work!!

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:49 (twenty-one years ago)

In those reaction shots, Bush looks exactly like my mental image of the word "twerp."

SO OTM.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Stop hiding behind Prime Minister Alawi.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:49 (twenty-one years ago)

alawi is there too?

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:49 (twenty-one years ago)

so *he* brings up puppet?

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

again, the taller candidate has always won since the TV debates started.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

but hes a brave brave brave man

― phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

'the problem is, that i don't know where that ground is. so i can't change the dynamics there. please let me know if you find them'

ha! talking about treating leaders like puppets! fuck this shit.

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I want to play a drinking game with "That's no way to ____ ____ ____."

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Alawi the Brave.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is repeating himself a lot. There doesn't seem to be any depth there.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

No criticism permitted - sends the wrong message to the enemy.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

the visual image of which candidate is stronger is a subconscious trigger. and kerry's rockin' that tonight.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Madeliene Albright summed Bush's oxymoronic agenda up best = "imposed democracy".

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

okay I think they've talked about Iraq and the fucking terrorists enough already...

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I want to play a drinking game with "That's no way to ____ ____ ____."

hehe - 2 more debates, right?

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

There doesn't seem to be any depth there.

otm

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I've already been playing the "hard work" drinking game
xpost

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

'fighting freedom!'

'they attacked us!'-- he sounds like a 5-year old

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:52 (twenty-one years ago)

SPEAKING CLEARLY!?!??!

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:52 (twenty-one years ago)

okay I think they've talked about Iraq and the fucking terrorists enough already...

Well, oops, that is the pre-orchestrated theme of this evening's debate.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:52 (twenty-one years ago)

he talks about speaking clearly? LOL?

xpost

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Right. They'll cover domestic issues in the next one, presumably.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:52 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.dailyprobe.com/arcs/102201/goofus.jpg

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

SPEAKING CLEARLY?!?!?!

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

wtf Bush wants everyone to lie and say how great things are going in Iraq and it was just such a super idea to go in there because all the troops are so fragile and if we don't tell them that they're saving the world and defending freedom they'll give up.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

You do realise that if Bush doesn't say the word 'freedom' every two minutes, he forgets what it means, right?

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

but why are we IN THERE IN THE 1ST PLACE ... jesus!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:53 (twenty-one years ago)

haha bush will spend every waking moment between these two going over his scripted lines with his coach. and then rewriting them when Cheney makes some psychotic faux pas at the VP debate.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

18 year old uneducated killing machines can be fragile, alright....

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

bush looks really really worried when kerry focused on one of his lines.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Rue the day that Saddam was still in power? When we were still bombing them? They were absolutely no threat to us.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

'look at libya'?

YEAH! iraq didn't fucking attack us! thank you, john

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

was Iraq/terrorism agreed on to be the entire focus of the debate? if so, then Bush won before it started

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's taking a giant crap on Dubya.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

now kery repeats himself OH NO

― :| (....), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

bush is so concerned about the welfare of the troops that rations have been cut back while burger king has been allowed to franchise camps for profit.

i almost started crying when i heard this.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry's taking a giant crap on Dubya.

so did gore.

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry is kicking Al Gore's ass all over the place.

― Gold Teeth II (kenan), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

"sadaam hussein would have been continually weakening."

that was fucking awesome.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

"i didn't want to go to war" -- WTF?!?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

'bin laden attacked us. i know that!'

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

OF COURSE! I KNOW THAT! HA!

― phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush right now...

http://mysite.verizon.net/res75vc1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/charlie_brown.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:55 (twenty-one years ago)

no the point of the debate was for america to get a visual sense of which person was more leader-like. And kerry is winning like a muthafucka. and gore did not do this. gore and bush pretended to be twins and THAT is not happening tonight.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:56 (twenty-one years ago)

he finally heard something that sounded kinda familiar

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay am I missing something. . . is Kerry just destroying him or am I totally biased?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:56 (twenty-one years ago)

"i didn't want to go to war" -- WTF?!?

seriously. what about "regime change" from day one as noted by paul o'neil? they never denied it. never.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:56 (twenty-one years ago)

so can we get the kid out of office already?!
c'mon people.

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:56 (twenty-one years ago)

kerry >>> gore definitely

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:57 (twenty-one years ago)

if anything the pessimisstic liberals here are giving america TOO MUCH credit by assuming they'll personally twist everything to bush's favor. they'll just sit on their ass and not vote instead.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:57 (twenty-one years ago)

uh, oh. de gaule? does anyone know who that is?

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:57 (twenty-one years ago)

remember the pollers come to you, you have to go vote.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:57 (twenty-one years ago)

kerry is on fire

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry is coming across as much more intelligent, rational, and thoughtful.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)

"de gaulle? that's an airport, right?"

...

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess you don't, FrankE. ;-) (I tease -- it's spelled "de Gaulle")

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)

'im not exactly sure what this global test thing is'

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess you don't, FrankE. ;-) (I tease -- it's spelled "de Gaulle")

heh. i'm so fired up right now. can't even type!

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:59 (twenty-one years ago)

he is falling apart.

more of the same, please.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:59 (twenty-one years ago)

now he's rambling ... "foreign court where our people can be prosecuted"

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is having trouble stringing sentences together now.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:59 (twenty-one years ago)

http://img17.exs.cx/img17/8401/2369.gif

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 1 October 2004 00:59 (twenty-one years ago)

One termer. Just like Daddy. God, let it be so.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry is coming across as much more intelligent, rational, and thoughtful.

IOW, he's screwed.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:00 (twenty-one years ago)

"peninshula"

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

daddy could at least occasionally string together a coherent sentence

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

in crawford, tx. where i've spent a lot of time clearing brush and driving my pickup. it's nice down there. real nice. dry.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Why oppose the International Court? WTF issue am I missing there? Are they just afraid Kissinger will be next?

― Gold Teeth II (kenan), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

his facade disintegrates so quickly. he acts like a cornered, addled rat.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

that was almost a three second lapse there.

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

who remembers that greg stillson character from that stephen king novel.......

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow that was LOOOOONG pause.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

eye-RANE-ian MOO-lahs

― Marcel Post (Marcel Post), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:02 (twenty-one years ago)

'mooo-lahs'

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is having clear trouble filling his time. He ran out of talking points 20 minutes ago.

― Gold Teeth II (kenan), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is having trouble filling up each 2 minute segment even with all the long pauses and rambling.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:02 (twenty-one years ago)

In the first 15-30 minutes of this debate, I thought they were about even; Kerry's doing SO much better now, though.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:02 (twenty-one years ago)

bush is on his third glass of water?

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

HA. w.r.t. N. Korea, the REAL story...

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

meanwhile Kerry has things to say. This is great!

― Gold Teeth II (kenan), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

ay stuff like that more! 'the president did nothing!' is good! and clear! and people understand it!

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-02/16/xinsrc_6033d39e536f4bf1a24447d8d4c62cf0_dunk2.jpg

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

do they get toilet breaks?

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

holy shit. he just kicked the shit out of bush on N. Korea.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

did they coordinate their ties for the "red white and blue" effect

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Why oppose the International Court? WTF issue am I missing there? Are they just afraid Kissinger will be next?

Because all them (dark) furriners will hoosegow good (white) American boys for trumped-up war crimes. We all know American soldiers never do nothing wrong.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:04 (twenty-one years ago)

kerry has kept things pent up for how long? dude, let it all out!

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:04 (twenty-one years ago)

is that within the remit of the moderator?

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:04 (twenty-one years ago)

do they get toilet breaks?

i don't think so. i think heard bush pissing his pants a little bit ago.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:04 (twenty-one years ago)

'we can't sanction them anymore'

sigh. he's so clever.

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, it doesn't matter what happens during the debate, it's how the two campaigns spin this until polling day what counts. And the Bush campaign had their spin for this prepared months ago. I'm betting on Bush pulling it together in the last few minutes, so they can get a couple of 'BUSH PULLS IT OUT OF THE BAG' and 'BUSH: GREAT COMEBACK' headlines.

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:05 (twenty-one years ago)

what I wouldn't give for him to start crying and barbara to waddle up their and clutch him to her bosom

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:05 (twenty-one years ago)

whoa. jim lehrer smokes 'em both on sudan.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Lehrer's good.

― Marcel Post (Marcel Post), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:05 (twenty-one years ago)

ooh.. sudan. let's hear this.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:05 (twenty-one years ago)

is bush jonesing for something (besides an offense)? his pursed lips are all over the place with motion...

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:05 (twenty-one years ago)

jfk would have shagged two actresses during the length of this debate. and still won.

depressing, the way things have gone...

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush is using the 30 second rebuttals more .. which means Kerry is schoolin' him.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:06 (twenty-one years ago)

that "what kind of message does 'wrong war, wrong time' send to the troops?" shit is so small-minded, yet I bet small-minded Americans eat it up.l

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:06 (twenty-one years ago)

lehrer for president.

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:06 (twenty-one years ago)

his facade disintegrates so quickly. he acts like a cornered, addled rat.

If the shoe fits....kick someone with it.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:06 (twenty-one years ago)

he said DRAFT

― :| (....), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry is so impressive tonight. I think for the first time, I actually want him to be the president.

― Gold Teeth II (kenan), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:07 (twenty-one years ago)

what a fucking awesome answer on sudan

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:07 (twenty-one years ago)

jesus...expand the miliary even more. kerry knows he won't lose us, and is getting away with such conservative shit. i hate this. i might throw up soon.

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:07 (twenty-one years ago)

"I didn't do it! It was like that when I got here!"

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry is so impressive tonight. I think for the first time, I actually want him to be the president.

so totally, utterly, completely, entirely O.T.M.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry had a really nice button at the end there re Sudan, tying together his entire answer.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:08 (twenty-one years ago)

bush: "yeah, uh, what he said"

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush alludes to "the rainy season". He knows his geography.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:08 (twenty-one years ago)

bush cites "rainy" season in sudan, like he knows something. but, uh, that hasn't stopped the fucking genocide...

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:09 (twenty-one years ago)

"I didn't do it! It was like that when I got here!"

yep, that's dubya's fallback -- when all else fails, blame clinton!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:09 (twenty-one years ago)

i agree, he hasn't seemed "presedential" to me up until tonight

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:09 (twenty-one years ago)

'that's a loaded question!'

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Daughter invokation

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:09 (twenty-one years ago)

WTF why is BUsh talking about their daughters??

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:09 (twenty-one years ago)

stalling...

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:09 (twenty-one years ago)

"his daughters have been so kind to my daughters" ... WTF?!?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:09 (twenty-one years ago)

'i won't hold the yale thing against him, har har'

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm late to the discussion (it's 4 am here), but i think JK's looking pretty good. if it's not too traitorish to point it out, it's kind of a pity that kerry took the pre-emptive war question to bring out the JFK/de gaule quote and the credibility issue again (kinda plays into the hands of the zel "he wants to hand our security over to france" millers of this world), when he could've said something like "pre-emptive war is necessary when we're under a legitimate threat"

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

you can not lead if you send Mexicans

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

mexed missages

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

"mexed missages!"

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

they all lez up apparently - young male vote

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Wait, Dubya, let me get this straight: Kerry changes his position and sends mixed messages?

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

"you cannot lead if you send mexed missages"

― snazz, Friday, 1 October 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

"i know how this world works"

Um....not.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

he's doing an ad for kerry

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

the war, on iraq, is fundamental?

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

the daughters should have had a battle royale cage match. if only lehrer had suggested that,

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

bush trikced kerry into smiling OH NO

― :| (....), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

you can not lead if you send Mexicans

actually, that's probably how americans would love the president to lead.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

now he's going on about the alleged "flip-flopping" ...

"i know how this world works" -- ANOTHER WTF?!? (xpost w/ alex)

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

re: rainy season, you only get that type of deep knowledge of international affairs by being president for four years. betcha kerry couldn't tell you the avg rainfall the sudan gets per year. he's not fit for leadership.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

i acknowlege his daughters...

uh oh.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

when he could've said something like "pre-emptive war is necessary when we're under a legitimate threat"

That's a good point.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

How did the computer die at the end of Electric Dreams again? All grand plans came to nothing, seized up, tried to be nice, then exploded?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Daughter/wife talk....waste of time.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

jesus, bush just SNICKERED!

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

MISSED MEXICANS

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:11 (twenty-one years ago)

but no don't you see this is all part of an elaborate conservative plan that I have deduced from behind my computer in my little apartment. I am through the looking glass and there is no hope in this miserable society. No matter what happens the dumb americans who in some state I've never been in will undoubtedly warp it to make Bush look good and be even MORE inspired to go out and vote. what keeps me from jumping out the window I don't know.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:12 (twenty-one years ago)

"You can be certain, and be wrong" = awesome

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:12 (twenty-one years ago)

uhhh. acknowledging changing positions makes me nervous. kerry turning it around well.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Watch that animated loop up above and put on Gang Starr's "Work", it is the pinnacle of human achievement.

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 01:12 (twenty-one years ago)

OMG when kerry said "I'm not going to comment on his character" and bush took a drink, please tell me there was gin in that highball

― kyle (akmonday), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:12 (twenty-one years ago)

bush interprets facts as 'pressure.'

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Hahaha I was just trying to describe electric dreams to someone the other night.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

"certainty can sometimes get you in trouble"

awesome

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry mentionned stem cell yay I won't have to move to china!

― SÃ©bastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

'there's pressure on the president! i learned it!'

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

"you cannot wilt under that pressure"

... "i've never wilted in my life."

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

"You can be certain, and be wrong" = awesome

very true.

kerry strengthening his voice. wrapping up his positino nicely.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:13 (twenty-one years ago)

nuclear proliferation indeed. geez i was just clapping.

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry mentionned stem cell yay I won't have to move to china!

I want your drugs.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:14 (twenty-one years ago)

yo I'm gonna be on ti-dop that's all my eyes can see
Victory is mine yeah surprisingly
I've been laying waiting for your next mistake
I put in work and watch my status escalate
Now I'ma start collectin props connectin plots
networkin like a conference cause the nonsense is yet to stop
Jakes shake me down, haters wanna take me down
Break me down, CLAP all they heard was the sound
Yo I scoped it out, I took your weak dream and choked it out
Your bitch don't really got no ass, she just poked it out
on the deelow, I'm sayin, you versus me though?
We can do this shit right here, in front of your people
See time is money kid, and BS walks
And to me, it's funny kid when you meet heads talk
I see Feds stalk, they wanna dig up the dirt
Son is it me they hawk, cause I be puttin in work Son?
Aiyyo I'm gonna be on ti-dop, that's all my eyes can see
Victory is mine, yeah surprisingly
I've been laying, waiting for your next mistake
I put in work, and watch my status escalate
You cornballs get stonewalled, blackballed I own y'all
The veteran, runnin my plan I'm the better man
Crazy raw, doin my job like the mob
Blazin y'all, and disappearin in the fog
or a mist, and chicks can't resist what I kick
They be beggin for attention or some more of the dillznick
Word up baby, someone may have to get hurt up baby
Shit is mad shady, but I got to get the gravy
Platinum respect like the force of a tech
keep you hittin the deck, feelin heat in your chest
Bangin your thoughts with the hot onslaught
A kid got shot on the spot for goin where he should not
Viciously, I make history, instantly
Those other lame ass loser ass niggaz, they can't fuck with me
I'm doin my thing now, to lamp later on
Paid in the shade, with some fly gators on
But now I'm grimy as they get, mud on my pants and shirt
I bet you niggaz out here know, I be puttin in work
Aiyyo I'm gonna be on ti-dop, that's all my eyes can see
Victory is mine, yeah surprisingly
I've been laying, waiting for your next mistake
I put in work, and watch my status escalate

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 01:14 (twenty-one years ago)

seriously, you should all come to ireland. i've said this before.

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I am more hopeful now.

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:15 (twenty-one years ago)

MORE MEXED MISSAGES

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:15 (twenty-one years ago)

nukyoooolur

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:16 (twenty-one years ago)

MULTIPRONGED MEXED MISSAGES

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:16 (twenty-one years ago)

"transshipment:"

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:16 (twenty-one years ago)

how long before he says prolfireritation wrong? t minus 5..4..

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:16 (twenty-one years ago)

a "proliferator"

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:17 (twenty-one years ago)

nuclear proliferation. so that's why he said it, 2 words bush can't say.

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:17 (twenty-one years ago)

can't the shrub's handlers suggest that he not say 'um' and pause quite as much? or does it make him seem more 'folksey' to the public?

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:17 (twenty-one years ago)

proliferation count: 12
wmd count: 3

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:17 (twenty-one years ago)

YOUR MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEM WON'T HELP THE FUCKER WITH THE SUITCASE!

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:17 (twenty-one years ago)

subliminable watch: "protect america in the long RUM!" (the drink or sfeld tho?)

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:18 (twenty-one years ago)

kim jim ill

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:18 (twenty-one years ago)

"kim jing ol"? "kim shung il"??

― :| (....), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:19 (twenty-one years ago)

can't the shrub's handlers suggest that he not say 'um' and pause quite as much? or does it make him seem more 'folksey' to the public?

No, I can't see how it looks good to anyone.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:19 (twenty-one years ago)

okay kerry needs to tone down the smug grin a wee bit

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Watch that animated loop up above and put on Gang Starr's "Work", it is the pinnacle of human achievement.

try it with Khia's "My Neck, My Back" too.

― phil-two (phil-two), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:19 (twenty-one years ago)

what, who's "changing the democratic process in the name of fighting terrorism" again?

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:20 (twenty-one years ago)

i was just thinking that, oops

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Vlad'mir

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:20 (twenty-one years ago)

(How much you wanna bet that the final cut of Team America works in some references to this debate?)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Vladdamurr

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

'democratic processes are bad! i don't like democrats!'
'no, sir, they mean the OTHER kind of democratic process'
'there's more than one? why didn't they tell me this in the ivy league?

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

DRAKUL

― :| (....), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

VLAD-uh-mur?!?

my slav blood is churning

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

weird did anyone else see the cspan camera just *lower* kerry?

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

look at the podiums!

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

can anyone tell john to tone down on the contour blusher next time?

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought Kerry fell over there - the C-SPAN showed him while Bush was speaking and the cameraman did something funny. (x-post)

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

vlah-dee-MEER, dubya ... vlah-dee-MEER. i wouldn't do what you told me if you fucked up my name, either!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

"just because the president says it can't be done....that doesn't mean it can't be done!"

Slam!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

frankencense and vladdamurr

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

"you know my opinion...." hahaha

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

"i'm a pretty calm guy."

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush just fucked up royally w/ that response...game set match

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah that was a big misstep.

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

haha what is happening now? bush is answering like he's just been woken up

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.etc.cl/series/slamdunk/imagenes/imagen68_grande.jpg

BOOYAKASHA

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

"THE ISSUE IS WHAT YOU DO ABOUT!"

Slam squared!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

how many times is he going to say 'we saw the same intelligence'?

too bad they don't HAVE the same intelligence.

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.ki-aikido.se/goteborg/images/lagerjan2004/Full%20body%20slam%20mot%20Adam%20.JPG

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:24 (twenty-one years ago)

It's good to see Kerry say some of the things you wish someone would say.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:24 (twenty-one years ago)

this has been fucking awesome. i can't wait to see the polls tomorrow.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Normally when people fuck up in such situations it's cause they're nervous about being watched by millions of people. W on the other hand seems to act as though he's sitting around with a few of his boys after an all-night booze n hookers fest.

haha xpost with mitch

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:25 (twenty-one years ago)

has anyone else noticed how on the split-screen shots (on NBC at least), the shot of Bush is significantly higher so that the top of his Podium comes up way further up on the screen, so that the tops of their heads come up to the same point on the screen? it's kind of a weird effect, I can't tell if they're just compensating for Bush being shorter than Kerry, or if it's making the height difference even more noticeable.

― Al (sitcom), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:25 (twenty-one years ago)

have the words FINISH HIM appeared on the screen yet?

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry now mopping up.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:25 (twenty-one years ago)

if only he'd moonwalk from the podium to shake bush's hand

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:26 (twenty-one years ago)

did kerry just, uh, mispeak about "cutting our finances"?

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:26 (twenty-one years ago)

who invented 'god bless america'? it creeps me out...

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd vote for Bush if his slogan was "Spreadin' freedom like butta"

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Al, i think putting their heads on a level plane on the screen is probably less distracting than the other options

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:27 (twenty-one years ago)

YEah, my wife just pointed that podium thing out to me. If we're noticing it, tons of other people are too.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:27 (twenty-one years ago)

"mighty mountain over the valley of peace"

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, both "God bless America" and "hunt and kill" seem forced coming out of Kerry's mouth.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:28 (twenty-one years ago)

climbing? mountains? violets??

― :| (....), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:28 (twenty-one years ago)

valley of peace? is that code for creepy xtians?

― Maria D. (Maria D.), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:28 (twenty-one years ago)

well, dubya can remember a spiel good enouogh (obviously, he was at least coherent when summing up) ... he's not so good when winging it. but we all knew that ... dunno how it's gonna play, honestly.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:28 (twenty-one years ago)

see my posts upthread re: height differential being important, as to the TV deal.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Bush didn't fuck up too much in his closing statement, but there was barely anything substantive about it.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:28 (twenty-one years ago)

not much of a kisser, kery

― :| (....), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:29 (twenty-one years ago)

he repeated one bit again when he got lost, though

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:29 (twenty-one years ago)

but there was barely anything substantive about it.

doesn't have to be ... it just has to hit the right buttons. will it, though?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:30 (twenty-one years ago)

that evangelical shit freaks me out. it's chilling.

― tricky disco (disco stu), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:30 (twenty-one years ago)

The FreeRepublic thread is hilarious: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1231992/posts?q=1&&page=751

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd say Kerry "won".

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think Kerry could have performed much better than he did.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:33 (twenty-one years ago)

i still want to throw up.

but it could be the drinks from club FT and the fries i just ate, rather than the debate...

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:34 (twenty-one years ago)

The spin on Bush's pausing and mispronouncations is that the common man will see eye-to-eye with him, figuring that they'd act the same way if they were in Bush's position. He does that shit on purpose.

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:34 (twenty-one years ago)

that's been the spin on bush's everything, really

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:35 (twenty-one years ago)

kerry did great ... better than i thought he would. whether that means a hill of beans is to be seen.

i'm just wondering if bush's performance was good enough to persuade anyone on the fence (or energize his base). i definitely think the latter -- the former will depend on the spin (though the performance was iffy).

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:36 (twenty-one years ago)

The Bush guy on PBS is hallucinating?!?!?! Bush was MORE fluent?!?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Argh, PBS has a former Bush staffer talking about how he thought that Bush was "more decisive and articulate" in the debates. WTF? Did you even watch it, dude?

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:38 (twenty-one years ago)

No, he's just a poor speaker.

I don't know the thought processes of the common man, but I sure as hell don't want a president who'd act the same way I would in any given situation! ie hide under the desk, smoke crack with the hooker, etc

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:38 (twenty-one years ago)

No John, you're wrong. *waves hand in front of john's face* Bush WAS more articulate. He did a good job. A goooood job.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Argh, PBS has a former Bush staffer talking about how he thought that Bush was "more decisive and articulate" in the debates. WTF? Did you even watch it, dude?

i agree ... it's the conservative pravda/stalinist hive-mind at work.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:40 (twenty-one years ago)

PBS has a former Bush staffer talking about how he thought that Bush was "more decisive and articulate" in the debates. WTF? Did you even watch it, dude?

obviously right.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:41 (twenty-one years ago)

yes of course.

i thought kerry came off smarmy and arrogant as usual.

Can't wait to see what Diamond John Edwards has to say in his debate.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Swing voters who watched this will definitely lean in favor of the more handsome dude.

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 01:41 (twenty-one years ago)

but did you agree with anything Kerry said, Roger? Is smarmy worse than bumbling and slow-witted?

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:43 (twenty-one years ago)

From the Freepers: "Heh I don't mind so much when W stutters. Its then that I realize that he's human like everyone else, and not trying to be some image of perfection of which everyone will most certainly fall short." I feel this person might be my worst fear.

I have to say, I thought Kerry won. I'm European, so I don't have the investment some of you do, but I don't hide my support for Kerry. However, I try to be objective - I thought Bush's RNC speech was good, for example. But Kerry really kicked Bush's ass, it was a real gubbing. (The fact that half the freepers thought Kerry was winning is a good sing). Not that this will change the outcome of the election, I'm sure Kerry will win. Cheer up liberals.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:47 (twenty-one years ago)

wait'll the freepers freep the networks ... the right-wing noise machine will be busy. in that sense, it doesn't matter how bush does wr2 kerry ... the dems don't have a similar noise machine to shout down the TV/talk radio wingnuts.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:49 (twenty-one years ago)

"I didn't mind so much when Bush shat himself on stage..."

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

kerry -- "tanned, rested, and arrogant." rove goes for strength, not weakness.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Consensus of a handful of swing voters on NBC was that Kerry won.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:53 (twenty-one years ago)

but did they decide on who they will vote for based upon tonight's debate?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:54 (twenty-one years ago)

God the perving moment was awful though.

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:56 (twenty-one years ago)

"Its then that I realize that he's human like everyone else, and not trying to be some image of perfection of which everyone will most certainly fall short". Argh. The more I read this, the more it annoys me. The impossibility of human perfection is not an excuse for confusing failings and virtues!

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:56 (twenty-one years ago)

(i mean, I was impressed. but everyone here knows where i stand, what are my biases, i'm easy. remember, gore "won" too -- until the spinners and the heathers started! no-one was going on about gore's "sighing" and "earth-tones" immediately after the 1st 2000 debate!!)

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:56 (twenty-one years ago)

all is forgiven when yer born again!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:57 (twenty-one years ago)

but did they decide on who they will vote for based upon tonight's debate?

No, they said they're still waiting to hear his positions on other issues. But they agreed they felt a lot more comfortable about putting him in charge of foreign-policy decisions.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 01:57 (twenty-one years ago)

that can only be a a good thing, then. laughable as it sounds, foreign policy is considered bush's "strength."

(of course, the right wing spin machine is another story, i agree.)

― the krza (krza), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:03 (twenty-one years ago)

jon stewart is on FIRE

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:05 (twenty-one years ago)

oh god hannity is on now. I usually can't help but watch him but i think i'm gonna have to change the channel if i want my tv to remain unsmashed.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, what is Stewart saying?? I don't have cable!

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Giulliani is spinning like a fuckin' top.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:22 (twenty-one years ago)

So Kerry sucks as a candidate, ri*ht?

― *abbneb, Friday, 1 October 2004 02:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Jon Stewart is basically making Rudy his bitch.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I actually thought Bush won. Kerry started very weak but evened up during the second half. But this idea that Bush has a plan -- a terrible one ("stay the course"), but a plan nonetheless -- and Kerry doesn't, which is a seriously big question for people in this election, isn't going to change from what I saw tonight. When Kerry talks about his vague ways to improve things ("better training") I yearn for the days of Clinton and his endlessly intricate proposals.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:23 (twenty-one years ago)

now it's Rudi's turn to come with the "we must blow smoke up our soldiers' and our allies' asses when it comes to Iraq"

"we must not make fun of a country who is our ally, such as Poland. we must only make fun of countries which disobey our commands, such as France"

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Sullivan over on his blog:

JUST ONE THING: (Much, much more soon). No president who has presided over Abu Ghraib should ever say he wants to put anyone on a leash. That's all. Stay tuned.

heh heh heh

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Watch that animated loop up above and put on Gang Starr's "Work", it is the pinnacle of human achievement.

No, no, "rump shaker"

― Symplistic (shmuel), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I believe the final score was 3 glasses of water for Bush, 1 for Kerry.

― Al (sitcom), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:35 (twenty-one years ago)

i only saw the second half in a restaurant with captioning on, and i wasn't sure who won...kerry came off as long-winded and too multilateral, but the line about outsourcing catching bin laden kicked serious fucking ass.
the captioning also had the beautiful nugget "President Bush: the only thing my opponent has been consistent in is being consistent", which must have been transcribed wrong (though if it wasn't, it's President Kerry time).

― Symplistic (shmuel), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:38 (twenty-one years ago)

no, that transcription sounds about right...

― the krza (krza), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

wait, no - i didn't read that right. time to go to sleep

― the krza (krza), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

So... Edwards almost surely mopping the floor with Cheney just about seals the deal, right?

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Friday, 1 October 2004 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I actually thought Bush won. Kerry started very weak but evened up during the second half.

only if you believe that repeating the same bullshit phrases over and over again means winning a debate.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Even righty stormtrooper Joe Scarborough is conceding that Kerry won.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:04 (twenty-one years ago)

CNN / GALLUP POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE

Kerry: 53
Bush: 37

CBS POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE:

Kerry: 44
Bush: 26
Tie: 30

ABC POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE:

Kerry: 45
Bush 36:
Tie: 17

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't hear the whole thing, but it seemed pretty close to me. Obviously I liked Kerry better. I'd say that in political terms Kerry gained at least a little ground just by looking decent, and Bush lost a little by looking much weaker than he did in his galvanizing convention speech. I hope people will put 2 and 2 together and say "Wait a minute, when this guy is unscripted, he winces, stutters, and says 'Uh' a lot, and sounds flustered and confused." Probably not that many will, but I think this debate will at least halt Bush's momentum. I hope the town hall format will really trip Bush and give Kerry the chance to pull ahead.

― Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I watched the debate on C-Span, where they kept it split-screen the entire debate - I noticed, on Fox News' post-debate coverage, that there were lots of cuts between various angles, showing Lehrer & the debaters and so on, so I'm glad for C-Span's steadfast direction. And as for the debate, yeah, Kerry had him pretty much throughout the whole debate.

There was one moment (after the 3rd question) where Bush seemed pissed off and FOCUSED and came back with a strong rebuttal. But, after that point, Bush was floundering - he was twitching, shuffling, scoffing when Kerry talked while Kerry calmly watched Bush speak. The fact that Bush constantly, desperately took advantage of the extra 30 seconds post-rebuttal like he was hailing a cab at Times Square, desperately trying to retrench and re-establish his talking points (which no doubt were touched on and spent half-way through the debate), while Kerry was more than happy to let his initial statement for each question stand on its own, and then took the opportunities (when presented) to fill out his stances. And then when Bush was offered a post-rebuttal spot near the end of the debate and PUNTED (first saying he had said it all, and then rotely reiterating a talking point) ... it was the nail in the coffin, no matter how hard Fox & CNN & whomever (hello Karen Hughes!) try to spin this as a strong Bush showing.

This is gonna be corny, but when Kerry was giving his closing statement, he turned from "the guy we need to vote for to get rid of Bush" to "the guy that should be the next President of the US" (as Jon Stewart noted). It was a little bit of a _West Wing_ moment for me, that sort of dawning realization that the guy you put your hopes behind is Doing It and rising to the occasion, but it was undeniable and quite heartening.

FYI - MSNBC poll re: who won the debate has Kerry on top, 70% to 30%.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:06 (twenty-one years ago)

MSNBC.com poll, BTW.

CNN.com poll (Kerry / Bush / tie): 79 / 18 / 4

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:09 (twenty-one years ago)

That was awesome. Kerry totally mopped the floor with Dubya. Apart from any particular thing he said, he just seemed more confident. If the question is, Which candidate makes you feel more secure?, then I have a hard time believing that anyone based on this debate would come away saying Bush.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't see it all but I'm pretty sure that Bush won.

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:09 (twenty-one years ago)

xxxpost - What a slanted, cornball account.

First of all, David, Kerry wasn't 'calmy watching Buch speak" - he was visibly grinning smugly on more than one occasion.

So far, not ONE person has been able to honestly and adequately answer the question "Yes, Bush is bad news, but what makes Kerry different?"

I'm voting for Badnerik.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:11 (twenty-one years ago)

What was the daily show moment of zen? I missed the end

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:11 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, well a foxnews.com poll would have opposite numbers. online polls are self-selecting, so not worth putting much value into them.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:12 (twenty-one years ago)

To anyone still naysaying Kerry, remember how weak Bush seemed in the 2000 election and how even his supporters seemed to lack confidence in HIM. Kerry is already at a much better point than Bush was, and I think he could make a pretty inspiring president given a little time.

― Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:14 (twenty-one years ago)

You mean, given the presidency?

― Jimmy Mod, Los Sexx Yanqui (ModJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:14 (twenty-one years ago)

However, I did notice that as soon as Kerry returned to his scripted closing statement a little of the life seemed to go out of him - it was almost like he was morphing back into the boring, meandering, amorphous Kerry we've seen so much of in this campaign. Also, whoever wrote that "Stronger at Home, Respected In the World" line should be fired immediately. And if Kerry wrote it, he should fire the guy who didn't stop him from choosing it as his campaign slogan. I don't think it resonates well at all. But you have to admit, when the guy debates, he really is in his element.

multi-xposts ahoy

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I'm not too keen on the Stronger at Home, Respected in the World line. It's not even parallel construction, damnit! It should be "Stronger at Home, MORE Respected in the World" (which, admittedly, sounds even worse). He did seem like he was yawning a little on some key lines in the closing statement.

― Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:16 (twenty-one years ago)

"only if you believe that repeating the same bullshit phrases over and over again means winning a debate"

winning an intellectual debate does unfortunately differ from effective propagandizing, and i think there are two different successes here by two different metrics. the one most influential on the outcome of the election itself is clearly not the 'cocktail' metric though. i don't believe there is a chance in hell for kerry left after tonite. and i don't see that he even actually wants to win, those sorts of cues which should be apparent in his very manner/personage. . . just ain't there at all.

― duke nuclear, Friday, 1 October 2004 03:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, Bush is bad news, but what makes Kerry different?

uh, i think john kerry did that quite nicely tonight. he stated that he would seek out allies to help stop a global war. he stated that he would fund the military correctly. he said that he would have a plan that would work to stop nuclear proliferation while, under a bush administration, we've had four years of north korean movement towards armament. we've had four years towards iranian armament. bush says putin is not so bad, while kerry correctly states putin is moving away from democracy.

i mean, c'mon. i know who you want to have won the debate roger, but did you fucking watch it?

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:18 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't believe there is a chance in hell for kerry left after tonite. and i don't see that he even actually wants to win, those sorts of cues which should be apparent in his very manner/personage. . . just ain't there at all.

huh. i think you are completely wrong.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:20 (twenty-one years ago)

wtf danh? wrong on all counts.

― g--ff (gcannon), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I'm not too keen on the Stronger at Home, Respected in the World line. It's not even parallel construction, damnit

Also, it should be reversed. The emphasis inevitably falls on the second half of the formulation, and I don't think most voters frankly would rank being respected in the world at or near the top of their list of most pressing issues. As long as they're safe, and the economy is doing well, and the terrorists are being beaten, I don't think most people lose a lot of sleep thinking about how much the "world" respects us. Plus it plays right into the stereotype of Kerry as being some kind of rich jet-setting baguette-eater.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:21 (twenty-one years ago)

that's fine.

― duke hopefully, Friday, 1 October 2004 03:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Roger, I would've gladly put "HOLY FUCK WATCH OUT ROSE-COLORED ACCOUNT COMING GET YR DRINKS READY" tags around my post, but I figured that it would be clear enough what my tone is from reading it, and it would be easy for folx to accept / dismiss what I typed accordingly, and since I try my damndest to stay away from ILE political discourse, and am a non-entity in these wrasslin' matches, I didn't think it mattered what or how I couched my opinion.

But, yeah, watching the C-Span footage again, there is a bit of smirking happening on Kerry's half of the screen. Nothing excessive, though, it seems (excepting a few head shakes here and there, which is bound to happen when you disagree with your debate opponent) - mostly, he seemed to be smiling politely, attentively listening to W.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:22 (twenty-one years ago)

what frankE said.

and not be snide, but roger you weren't going to vote for kerry anyway. likewise, i am not going to vote for bush even if he was totally and undeniably terrific tonight and in every other debate. so our opinions don't really matter, since we're not in the persuadable category.

hell, since just about everyone here is firmly in one camp or another then maybe we're the wrong bunch altogether to judge how effective kerry or bush will be in persuading the heretofore unpersuaded based on tonight's performance.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:27 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean, it's not reagan over mondale, he didn't bury him, but he held the initiative, controlled the tempo, addressed a few weaknesses, and got some good digs in. and the only new idea introduced was his (the summit thing), so bush had to handle that pass.

bush did ok, too, i guess, but he was waaay more repetitive, circular, and had more visible instances of fatigue, boredom, impatience, and a lack of fluidity and ease.

― g--ff (gcannon), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:29 (twenty-one years ago)

bush was smirking much much more than kerry was and took it many steps further but constantly requesting time for a reply, which he generally bumbled.

― why do old people and old users of ILX such bastardos (deangulberry), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't imagine how anyone could have watched that debate and come away thinking Bush won. I really can't.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Also some Kerry adviser should have told him that "respected in the world" has a weird kind of resonance in evangelical Christian circles, where "the world" is often used to refer to the unsaved world - e.g., Christian catch-phrases like "be in the world, but not of the world". With this connotation, the desire to be "respected in the world" seems vaguely hubristic and ungodly. And of course Bush milks that distinction for all its worth by larding his closing statement with Biblical-sounding rhetoric.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:35 (twenty-one years ago)

evangelical christian circles are the last people kerry needs to give a fuck about!!

― g--ff (gcannon), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I am going to be profoundly depressed if Bush wins.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:38 (twenty-one years ago)

evangelical christian circles are the last people kerry needs to give a fuck about!!

I wouldn't be so sure about that. What percentage of Americans attend church services regularly again? I don't believe that every single one of them is an automatic Bush voter. There's absolutely no reason why Kerry shouldn't be able to play the religion card just as skillfully as Bush does. He attempted to do it in his convention acceptance speech (remember that "from Sunday to Sunday" line?) but he just seemed to forget about it here.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:40 (twenty-one years ago)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20041001/capt.sge.ohk31.011004021950.photo02.default-384x297.jpg

"So, er, Barbara. With legs like those, I bet that a gilr like you has made plenty of boyfriends up there in school, right?"

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:47 (twenty-one years ago)

So far, not ONE person has been able to honestly and adequately answer the question "Yes, Bush is bad news, but what makes Kerry different?"

I think the bit where he explicitly said that he'd have spent the money Bush used on tax cuts to the rich on, like, police made it kinda clear that the whole bush=kerry line is just totally dumb.

(I realise this isn't the way to sell anything to roger, but it's proof they're different).

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:56 (twenty-one years ago)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041001/capt.pd12010010159.debate_pd120.jpg

I mean, I hate to get off-topic, but wasn't this some sort of Silverman sitcom from the late seventies?

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:58 (twenty-one years ago)

John McCain as Bosley!!!

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 04:02 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.crazyabouttv.com/Images/quincy.jpg

its moidah

― \(^o^)/ (Adrian Langston), Friday, 1 October 2004 04:10 (twenty-one years ago)

John's looking jowlier these days.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 04:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Something else I just thought of about the debate.

Most networks adjusted their split screen so that the candidates' heads would appear level with each other. This gave the illusion that Bush's podium was six inches taller than Kerry's. This also meant that the little stoplight thingy for the response time was more in view on Bush's side than Kerry's. In other words, it seemed easier in these cases to notice that time was running out on Bush than for Kerry. Besides, at one point, the NBC NEWS DEBATE COVERAGE 2004 banner completely covered Kerry's lights.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Friday, 1 October 2004 04:25 (twenty-one years ago)

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041001/i/r993129455.jpg

HAHAHAH christ, this is the kinda harsh angle the photog needed just to get the two to look somewhat similar in height...

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Friday, 1 October 2004 04:29 (twenty-one years ago)

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041001/capt.flcd10810010131.presidential_debate_bush_kerry_flcd108.jpg

Jeez, just go for the gold right there, Johnny Mac.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Friday, 1 October 2004 04:51 (twenty-one years ago)

if i could be arsed to do so myself, i'd link to some blog comments stating how at least SOME right-wingers are all in a tizzy about dubya's performance. to the extent that such things are an accurate gauge on how well dubya's performance went wr2 "energizing his base,"* then that does not bode well.

then again, we'll see what rove & co. has up their sleeves. maybe we'll hear some nonsense about john kerry's tan or something.

(* -- the people who actually LIKE that dubya is a slurring ignoramus)

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 04:53 (twenty-one years ago)

does not bode well for BUSH.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 1 October 2004 04:56 (twenty-one years ago)

again to mah dems: the repubs do not matter. fretting about what they're gonna do is completely unnecessary. It's about what WE'RE gonna do, if WE'RE gonna get off our duff, encourage the enthusiasm that is more than this valid after the debate and bring voters in. It's not about conversion, it's about mobilization. No reason to fret about the adamant republicans. They have their own internal battle to fight. Worry about those who share our values but are totally fatalistic about the campaign and try to do something about THAT. Pessimissism and defeatism means that Fox News and Karl Rove are succeeding in their efforts and I don't know why you'd want to let them do that. I have to wonder why any dem that doesn't wanna go out fighting (especially when we just proved we can knock the shit out of the opponent) doesn't jump out a window already.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:01 (twenty-one years ago)

miccio are you out registering people to vote or anything like that?

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm making sure that people I know are voting. I don't really know the people running the Kerry scene here but I've seen them active in town. My schedule is crazy and while, yeah, I could be doing more, if everybody spoke out to just their own peer group (I'm shooting my mouth off about this point anywhere I can) I think it would do a lot to help.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:07 (twenty-one years ago)

on the way home, i got a free ride from folks giving out fliers for this:

http://www.intensityofkarma.com/trickorvote/

Door-to-door voter mobil/reg....on Halloween, the night when you won't get shot for knocking on someone's door.

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:10 (twenty-one years ago)

It's funny, my personal prediction for the debates was that this one would be lukewarm and it would be the Edwards/Cheney debate where the repubs were finally put on the defensive (this is how ya win, ask Clinton and Gore - who did better when the repubs were inspired to call him "the crazy bozo ozone man" rather then when he was just other white meat). Looks like we're off to an earlier start and I couldn't be happier about it. Edwards even smoother than Kerry and lord knows that when Cheney says something bugfuck and defensive HE MEANS IT AND SAYS IT CLEARLY, DAMMIT so unless DC takes some charisma pills we've got a one-two punch here. Son Of Reagan becomes Nixon 2: Electric Boogaloo.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:15 (twenty-one years ago)

frankly, Bush should HOPE he loses. If we somehow lose this thing he's just gonna get stupider and sloppier, the dems and the senate and everybody who doesn't kowtow to his demands are gonna get angrier and there's enough white collar crime and dubious activity that they're gonna pin something a whole lot worse than cattle futures and a bj on that administration. Then he'll REALLY be Nixon 2: Electric Boogaloo. If he loses he can just be a shitty little footnote in this country's history.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:21 (twenty-one years ago)

The thing is, it suits the needs of the media narrative for Kerry to win this debate. That's made easier by the fact that he actually won it, but even if it had been sloppier, the spin probably would have been, "It's a draw, which helps establish Kerry's credibility as someone who could be president." Since he won this one, Bush will have to win the 2nd -- along the lines of, he didn't fluff it as bad as the first one, he connected with the common man, Kerry's too aloof. The VP debate will be the one that both side vehemently declare victory in, and there will be no real consensus. The last debate will be called a draw, so that everyone can talk about the tightening of the race and how it's anybody's game.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:41 (twenty-one years ago)

i fear you are probably correct.

you don't happen to have a degree in media studies do you?

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:44 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.sinfest.net/comics/sf20040930.gif

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:46 (twenty-one years ago)

you don't happen to have a degree in media studies do you?

Just journalism, plus a dozen or so years working for newspapers little and big. But we're all media studies wonks these days, right?

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 1 October 2004 06:15 (twenty-one years ago)

The last debate will be called a draw, so that everyone can talk about the tightening of the race and how it's anybody's game.

yup. i'd lay money on this is how they'll try to spin it. altho, it'll be interesting to see how the 2nd debate fits in.

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Friday, 1 October 2004 06:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry won the debate, and Dean won the first couple of primaries. Mothra's on to something.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Friday, 1 October 2004 06:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you really think anyone could have believably spun this debate for Bush if it had served the purposes of The Plot? What if Kerry does even better in the second one (on the issues that are supposed to be his anyway)?

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Friday, 1 October 2004 06:55 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.snoopy.co.jp/fungames/html/images/c4b_football.gif

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Friday, 1 October 2004 08:12 (twenty-one years ago)

manthony came out strong here. And although Ned's bizarro wrong-thread-or-was-it comment threw him off his game manthony's finishing well.

― You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Friday, 1 October 2004 08:12 (twenty-one years ago)

[w/apologies to alex in nyc]

xpost

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Friday, 1 October 2004 08:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry won. He'll get a bounce of a couple of percentage points. But Bush will still win the election. Kerry's message is still inherently more complicated that Bush's and is therefore harder to get across.

― Meursault (Meursault), Friday, 1 October 2004 09:55 (twenty-one years ago)

A couple of points might be all Kerry needs in some states.

The Democrats appear to have haemorrhaged support in some eastern seaboard states that Kerry is still likely to win: NJ, MD and NY, for instance. I think this accounts, partially, for the small but significant Bush nationwide lead - he's gaining lots of ground he yielded to Gore in 2000 but not necessarily in places he'll win - and so it's still down to a handful of states which are too close to call. Of course, if PA and MN go Red it's probably all over but FL, OH, NV and CO are all in play.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Friday, 1 October 2004 10:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry did better than Bush, mainly on the strength of his ability to speak in public. Both were totally uninspiring and unappealing. Being the underdog, even a slight victory will be huge news for Kerry, and will be effectively spun into a bounce.

― don carville weiner, Friday, 1 October 2004 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought Bush was going to pull ahead when he started talking about the message of "wrong war, etc.." -vs- building a coalition. It sounded like a good point to the uninformed.. But Bush blew it & his edge only lasted about 5 minutes before he became a stuttering idiot.

K:"Iraq didn't attack us. Al Qaeda attacked us."
B:"I know that. What makes you think I wouldn't know that? You're the one." (Wishing I could find a picture of Martin Short as Nathan Thurm to post..)

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 10:52 (twenty-one years ago)

tips for kerry: when talking about what the war billions might've been used for, mention 'homeland security' uses first (policemen, ports, border patrol) THEN the 'bleeding heart' education, healthcare stuff (makes K look tougher on security, and bush negligent).

i think a more convincing response to bush on the "we looked at the same intelligence and both perceived a threat" would be to say something like "..and we know now that that intelligence was almost all wrong, and if we hadn't rushed to war and had let the inspectors finish their jobs, we might've known a lot earlier that intelligence was wrong, and that Saddam had no WMDS, and that we needed to rethink who might really be the greatest threat to america's security and how best to proceed in the war on terror. (instead of just repeating the "saddam was a threat. we needed to disarm him. we did it wrong" argument).

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 1 October 2004 11:06 (twenty-one years ago)

OK. When it started Kerry's Bush bashing was exciting for a little while, then it got old, fast. At the end of it all i realized neither candidate actually said what they were going to do with Iraq, and I basically just know they both think very little of each other, and that it's funny when important political figures keep mixing up names (Osma, Saddam, etc.).

In one of the last questions Kerry started stressing the importance of building world alliances and Bush kept on his cowboy man-alone ideology, then in the very next response was talking about dealing with Korea by using world alliances, and it was funny cos he kept stutterting, like he knew it would come off like he was contradicting himself..

Politcs are so large and abstract I don't think any human being can actually comprehend them. This debate was a good example of this.

― Adam Bruneau (oliver8bit), Friday, 1 October 2004 11:25 (twenty-one years ago)

jim lehrer should moderate all debates. forever. i shudder to think what lame-ass questions one of those networks hacks would have asked.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 1 October 2004 11:30 (twenty-one years ago)

neither candidate actually said what they were going to do with Iraq

In the short time he had to speak, I think he explained it pretty well:
"What I want to do is change the dynamics on the ground. And you have to do that by beginning to not back off of the Fallujahs and other places, and send the wrong message to the terrorists. You have to close the borders.

You've got to show you're serious in that regard. But you've also got to show that you are prepared to bring the rest of the world in and share the stakes.

I will make a flat statement: The United States of America has no long-term designs on staying in Iraq.

And our goal in my administration would be to get all of the troops out of there with a minimal amount you need for training and logistics as we do in some other countries in the world after a war to be able to sustain the peace.

But that's how we're going to win the peace, by rapidly training the Iraqis themselves."

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 11:43 (twenty-one years ago)

it's important to remember that the neocons plan on staying in Iraq for a very long time. that didn't really gbet brought out

― You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Friday, 1 October 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, "close the borders," "not back off of Falluah" and "rapidly training the Iraqis themselves." In terms of a plan, don't all three of these call for more money spent and more troops in Iraq? Is that what Kerrey is promising? I'm glad to see that everyone thinks Kerrey won (though I haven't seen an independant poll yet, if such a thing exists) and I wish I saw it that way.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 1 October 2004 12:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Says it all:

http://s90378193.onlinehome.us/images/kerry-victory.gif

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 1 October 2004 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there a video archive of the debate on the web somewhere?

― mei (mei), Friday, 1 October 2004 12:07 (twenty-one years ago)

i really don't understand all the "yeah kerry totally pW|\|3D!@# but we're gonna lose" talk, BUT EVEN IF WE DO, the job will be to keep up the momentum, and make the party energy, WHICH IS VERY REAL AND VERY COOL TO BE A PART OF, really count for something in a second Bush term. and if you're not involved, somehow, well, you make me cry. really.

― g--ff (gcannon), Friday, 1 October 2004 12:17 (twenty-one years ago)

don't all three of these call for more money spent and more troops in Iraq?

Yes. That's why he wants to bring in other nations to help. And if he approaches them humbly and says, "you have a stake in this. The US fucked up, but we're all fucked now - please help" - there's a good chance that some of them will help.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 12:19 (twenty-one years ago)

*Is there a video archive of the debate on the web somewhere?*

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134152,00.html

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 12:20 (twenty-one years ago)

I hope you're right. One very odd way that Bush has the upper hand is that it's his mess. It's like a kid who hasn't cleaned his room in a year -- he's saying that no one else can do it because they don't know where his toys are supposed to go.

― Mark (MarkR), Friday, 1 October 2004 12:30 (twenty-one years ago)

The amazing thing is that Bush never lays out a plan for dealing with Iraq either. He often speaks about how you should talk about Iraq - ie., you should never admit you made mistakes, you should never express any doubt that things are going well, you should never accept the possibility that we won't succeed - and when Lehrer asked him, he listed the conditions that would be required for US troops to leave, but he never said much of anything about how he expects the US to achieve those conditions. I would hope that people watching this debate would be perceptive enough to see that even if Kerry's points about his plan were not incredibly specific and detailed, Bush's were even less so.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 12:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Another quick post from Sullivan (his overall analysis praised and damned both of them but concluded Kerry carried it nonetheless)

EMAIL OF THE DAY: "Last night about 40 minutes into the debate my son, a paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne, called from his barracks room. He let me know Kerry had just earned 5 votes from him and 4 other troops watching the debate in his room. He got back from Iraq in April. He was at a FOB just south of Fallujah when he was there."

I like stuff like this. And now I really wonder what Stuart must be thinking, wherever he is.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Can we talk for a few posts about that nice moment where the two candidates complimented each other and talked about their daughters? It actually seemed like a sincere (unscripted) exchange.

― mcd (mcd), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, it was a very genteel moment, despite their differences, they're still gentlemen and all that, Yale, Skull & Bones, yadda yadda.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

how you really know who won

(xpost: i agree; it was a nice moment. my favorite single exchange in the debate was immediately thereafter when Kerry gave Bush parenting advice that showed that he knows how to learn from mistakes and Bush doesn't)

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:12 (twenty-one years ago)

And this morning, from one of my coworkers -- her niece serves in the National Guard in a unit that's already been to Iraq. Her unit did a quick straw poll and the vote was 52 Kerry, 2 Bush. I would call that a screaming lack of confidence in the current leader.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Did Bush make a commitment not to introduce a draft last night, or was I half asleep? I though he said, in wuite a determined way, that it would be a volunteer army. Or has he said that already?

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I think that has been his position all along.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

It fills me with nausea to think that the future of civilization rides upon what are, in essence, a series of beauty pageants.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't worry Mike, Bush is still going to win.

― Markelby (Mark C), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Boy, you want some entertainment, look at Nordlinger at the National Review. What's great is the bizarro mash note at the end.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't watch the debate, but this morning I was flipping around the various morning shows, watching their takes on it and it was odd. On the Today show on NBC, Tim Russert was essentially calling it a tie, but on the Fox Morning Show, their commentator was calling Kerry the winner, saying he seemed strong while Bush seemed weak. I started wondering if this was the same philosophy as the pre-debate tactic of each candidate trying to lower the expectations for their own performances on the debate, thus making their competent performance seem more amazing. But then I realized it was a local morning show on the Fox channel, so it was probably just skewing Democratic because, hey, this is Chicago.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Not surprisingly, the Chicago sports radio ignoramus Mike North agrees with the assessment that Kerry was "very slick" and that "he could have sold me some swampland last night." Yes, when your candidate gets beaten like a rented mule, he musta been taken in by some slick, sweet-talkin' New Englander...

― Baked Bean Teeth (Baked Bean Teeth), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:46 (twenty-one years ago)

It fills me with nausea to think that the future of civilization rides upon what are, in essence, a series of beauty pageants

I think that's an overly pessimistic assessment. There was plenty of substance brought up in the debate, perhaps too much. After all, does the average voter really need to have a position on whether talks with N. Korea should be bilateral or multilateral? The nature of democracy is that you have to trust the people to choose their leaders. Of course we all worry about uninformed, irrational voters, but they're an unavoidable part of the system.

There was an excellent article in the New Yorker a month or so back about the philosophical justification for the democratic system in the face of the limited information and decision-making heuristics available to voters. As long as there has been democracy, there have been critics of it - just think of Plato and his desire to have philosophers be kings.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:49 (twenty-one years ago)

What is going to interest me over the next month is if there will be more of this. Will there be a sudden attempt at a coordinated plan to 'pacify' Iraq in order to make everything seem like all is on the right course? I suspect this much more than I would any kind of 'October surprise' at this point.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

a "rushmore-level president"!! FFS!!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

From that National Review article: A Rushmore-level president

A Jason Schwartzman-level president, maybe.

http://us.ent4.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/touchstone_pictures/rushmore/jason_schwartzman/jason2.jpg

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, except that's a book in front of him.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually when I first read that comment I thought, "You mean a Wes Anderson character?"

Hah x-post!

Franklin Roosevelt ain't on the mountain and he fought Hitler.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:52 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, if Bush goes emo in the next debate, I'll be entertained. Slouches out with glasses, whines about his feelings, and talks about "that Weezering emotional band" to get the youth vote.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 13:53 (twenty-one years ago)

There was plenty of substance brought up in the debate, perhaps too much.

They could be talking about different kinds of cheese or the fine points Locke vs. Aristotle and the post-debate discussion still boil down to who had the tan and who stuttered, which I can only think is somewhat (though, no, not completely) tangential to the hard work of leadering. Stuff like poise and public speaking is sort of like democracy's version of all that weird instinctual criteria human beings supposedly use on some unconscious level to determine the suitability of a sexual partner (facial symmetry, hip-to-waist ratios, etc.) -- maybe they were valuable gauges of something-or-other in the far past, but those were different times.

After all, does the average voter really need to have a position on whether talks with N. Korea should be bilateral or multilateral?

I kinda do think they should, yeah, especially if there's even a wee possibility that an SK nuke has an American city's name on it.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Franklin Roosevelt ain't on the mountain and he fought Hitler.

Yes, but he thought giving money to the poor was a good idea. And then there's Yalta. So that cancels everything out, pretty much.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, but Yalta means throwing Churchill in the drink too. But if they're into that...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I kinda do think they should, yeah, especially if there's even a wee possibility that an SK nuke has an American city's name on it.

But if the experts who spend their lives in foreign policy think-tanks can't decide, then why should we expect voters who have day-jobs and other things to think about to decide? At some point you have to say, the voters will say where they want to go in broad strokes, but the actual implementation of how to get there will be made by others. There's no other way government could function.

The stuff you mentioned about "weird instinctual criteria" was also discussed in that article. You should read it if you're interested in exploring the topic. Basically there is a debate among political philosophers about whether those limited criteria are sufficient to produce a functioning democracy. It's a limited feedback system, but that doesn't mean it can't produce highly calibrated results. Think of when you go to an eye doctor (if you wear glasses). When the doctor tests you with different lenses, he only asks one question "Better or worse?" - yet by iteration he arrives at a very precise diagnosis of your needs.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Koreans are notorious for their bad eyesight.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:27 (twenty-one years ago)

"Will there be a sudden attempt at a coordinated plan to 'pacify' Iraq in order to make everything seem like all is on the right course?"

This may the plan, but if it is, I am sure pictures of the bloodshed involved by both sides won't be good news for Bushco.

Rushmore level president...yeah right more like Space Mountain.

― earlnash, Friday, 1 October 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think it makes BushCo look particularly good that we are now trying to regain control of areas that were supposedly under our control a year ago. Anything that draws attention to the real conditions on the ground in Iraq is not going to be good news for the Bush campaign.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm worried what will happen in Iraq after the US election. Regardless of who wins it, Bush will still be at the helm for at least three months with no accountability and nothing to lose.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's a link to that article I keep banging on about. It's called "The Unpolitical Animal" by Louis Menand:

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?040830crat_atlarge

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, nate .. I do have to remind myself that not everyone thinks the same way or even cares enough to learn about the issues. And it does come down in certain respects to a beauty pageant for some of these people.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought Bush looked peevish and ready to implode for much of the debate. He has inherited an ugly trait from his mother that tends to make him whiny when contradicted. Some may say that Kerry looked smug but I thought he was trying to come off as affable though not very convincingly.

Bush's essential skill, acquired long ago, is as a cheerleader. Relentlessly and steadfastly on message, he will not admit that cheerleading alone will not win the game. You need a coach, a playbook, and a good quarterback and no amount of neo-con post hoc rationalization will convince me this adminsitration's Iraq policy has been the fruit of the most amateur, pollyanish adventurism this country has ever seen. Mark my words. Fifty years from now, whether Bush or Kerry win, hindsight will rip the neo cons to shreds.

What particularly irks me about all the flag waving Bushists is this notion that you can only be a cheerleader right now. We have to have an election in November. To have that election, we need to discuss the issues. Whether you and your ilk want to discuss it ot not, the Iraq war is an issue. Saying that criticism will diminish the troops morale is not only beside the point, it is the first step in a grossly un-American process that equates dissent with treason and implies that we shouldn't have elections in time of war. If troop morale is important to you than perhaps you should have made better plans to not only win the war but win the peace, provided the troops with better personal and humvee armor, sent more troops in, and waited to arrange for a bigger coalition.

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I think CO will go to the dems.

― Towelette Pettatucci (Homosexual II), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Barry, same to you, with knobs on it.

― You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Saying that criticism will diminish the troops morale is not only beside the point, it is the first step in a grossly un-American process that equates dissent with treason and implies that we shouldn't have elections in time of war. If troop morale is important to you than perhaps you should have made better plans to not only win the war but win the peace, provided the troops with better personal and humvee armor, sent more troops in, and waited to arrange for a bigger coalition.

OTMFM!

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought is was hilarious that a couple times Bush very nearly said, "B-b-b-b-but he's sending mexed missages!"

― mcd (mcd), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:09 (twenty-one years ago)

It fills me with nausea to think that the future of civilization rides upon what are, in essence, a series of beauty pageants.

This has always been the case. It's called evolution. Democracy + mass communication have just given us the ability to apply the same principles when picking leaders. Look at Kim Jong Il, that's what totalitarianism does. Ugly little fucker barely knows how to dress himself.

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:11 (twenty-one years ago)

"He's on a Mexican radio!"

Anyway, our country has a long and glorious record of equating dissent with treason in times of war, Bush's stupid vaporous "You'll hurt their feelings" (which is a pile of crap anyway) is like pussy cat comparatively.

I still think Bush should've just started screaming I DON'T GIVE A FUCK! every time Kerry said something. Or that when Bush started temper tantruming about forgetting about Poland, Kerry should've replied that Bush has forgotten about Dre. But OTOH I think most things would be better if those comments were made, not just presidential debates.

Can we just skip this election and go to the next one?

xpost totalitarianism doesn't necessarily lead to bad dressing, I mean all of the totalitarian nations of the 30s, 40s, 50s had fantastic army wardrobes and ridiculously ostentatious leaders. I think that's just how they like to dress in Asia.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Thanks dave 225!

― mei (mei), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:18 (twenty-one years ago)

OK seriously those guys just got lucky with the fashion designers. They had no personal sense of real style, I mean look at the facial hair, look at Mussolini, look at the kinds of glasses they picked out for themselves. Bozos the lot.

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:18 (twenty-one years ago)

anyone else think McCain here looks exactly like dizzy gillepsie did on that episode of cosby where he guested as the kids' eccentric jazzbo uncle or something?

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041001/capt.pd12010010159.debate_pd120.jpg

― stevie (stevie), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:19 (twenty-one years ago)

You're insane if you think Stalin had no sense of style, look at the hair.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Those pictures are hilarious to me

xpost I have much better hair than Stalin.

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:22 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/churchill/images/wc0206-3c04520r.jpg

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)

That's right PINSTRIPES BABY

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:23 (twenty-one years ago)

OK seriously no one is saying you DON'T have better hair than Stalin, I mean so do I, but compare him to Kerry and Bush and tell me his hair and facial hair is not so much more awesome than theirs. For obvious reasons Kim Jong Il is totally pwned here, also.

xpost JUST LOOK AT HOW HE'S SITTING, that's a man with the leadership principal. He's not sitting like a dainty girly mang, he ain't slouching, he's AUTHORITATIVE.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Fuck the pinstripes, dude's suit is like two sizes too small. He's like a fancy ass Pee Wee Herman in that thing.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:25 (twenty-one years ago)

OH YOU DIDN'T

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

"oh sthalin you big silly..."

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't care how you wanna spin it, dude is wearing a suit that is too small. Look at how tight it is on his stomach. Look at his shoulders. Apparently the New Deal did not include provisions on the New Suit.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/img/hi07014.jpg
"I once went to bed with a man to see what it was like."

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Churchill is drunk so I don't think it's entirely fair to comment on his sprawling upon the chair.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually since it was after 9am when that picture was taken, they're probably all drunk

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

NEO JONG IL
http://www.b-ruce.com/old/images/Kim_Jong-Il_heart_throb.jpg

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Even if we agree that in a representative democracy, the electorate must always subcontract the work of the government to the elected (which is really a caricature of American democracy -- it's not ALL function via remote control, especially when it comes to the local level) this does not abrogate the responsibility of the electorate to make informed choices.

If we expect people to use a kind of "common sense" when electing officials ("well, he seemed really determined in the debates, so I'll vote for him") since that kind of criteria is used when we make decisions on a micro level (like in hiring a co-worker, then maybe we can also expect them to use similar common sense when having some kind of opinion of SK, too: "based on everything I've experienced, from American history to social interactions at work and at home, it seems to me that the best way to deal with a real wacko is to involve a lot of people with many different viewpoints to remove the appearance of possible bias" or "based on everything, etc. etc., we should just nuke the fuckers." And SK, even you know only the most curosry things about the situation, seems like a pretty pivotal enough to me to potentially matter when choosing between A and B.

When we say, oh, we can't expect voters with careers and families to find out about this or that, is that democracy's fault, or capitalism's? (I don't really know.)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Is he drunk? If he's not drunk, I don't care to speak about him.

um, xpost.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder if the after-effects of polio had anything to do with FDR's lameness with suits.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:36 (twenty-one years ago)

x-post

You know, at least the Chinese had the good sense to show Mao HAPPY when they did their beloved-leader thing.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:38 (twenty-one years ago)

"Our leader is happy because you're hungry and you have no running water! Yea!"

― Gold Teeth II (kenan), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

What kind of side effect of a disease is "bad dress sense"??!

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:41 (twenty-one years ago)

KJI's been known to consume Hennessy at a prodigious rate, so probably yeah.

I agree with Mike here that issues being subsumed by less important aesthetic concerns sucks and is a major flaw in our democracy, but I have no idea what to do about it so more drunk heads of state pics plz?

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, if your muscles shrivel up from underuse, it's gonna make it real difficult to fill out clothing properly.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:42 (twenty-one years ago)

he's filling out clothing a bit too properly.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:42 (twenty-one years ago)

We especially need to see pictures of drunk dictators.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, he's filling out the suit...unevenly. Oh, I dunno.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Two ideas which seem to be unquestioned by both candidates, both untrue.

1) It's America's job to lead the world.

2) The world outside America is very scary, full of threats to all Americans. In a debate about foreign policy, the only topics discussed were threats, fears, dangers to America. There's more to the rest of the world than that.

― Joe Kay (feethurt), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:44 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com/issues/07_03/images/yeltsin-grooving.jpg

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

hahahahahahaha nice, I love Russians.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

What dance move is that? I've done it plenty of times, I ought to know.

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeltsin is ridin' the train! (WOO WOO)

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Didn't he do the Twist, IIRC?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.dra.de/GRAPHICS/online/mao.jpg

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

It's the white man's overbite.

― Gold Teeth II (kenan), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:50 (twenty-one years ago)

the '68 Olympics Freaky-Deeky, I believe...

― Baked Bean Teeth (Baked Bean Teeth), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:51 (twenty-one years ago)

someone in my neighborhood is blasting "Lean Back" and it's really great with that photo. I think that's his move, he's leaning back.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:52 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/images/20030310-7_p27556-09a-koizumi--515h.jpg

― TOMBOT, Friday, 1 October 2004 15:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there a shot of Perot waltzing with his wife to Patsy Cline's "Crazy" (as seen in the documentary The War Room) somewhere?

Supposedly Ross Perot wants to be some sort of big wheel in this election and frankly I'm all for it. I miss that guy.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.therant.us/images/democrats/Bill%20Clinton%20-%20Laughing%20Headshot.jpg

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:56 (twenty-one years ago)

BTW google image search for Bill Clinton revealed fake Hillary Clinton porn and a picture of an Asian woman with huge distended nipples, but disturbingly low actual photos of Clinton.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.vsb-bildungswerk.de/allerweltskino/images/Mobuto-gros-02.gif

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:03 (twenty-one years ago)

thats a shot of clinton busting a nut.

― Velveteen Bingo (Chris V), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Please tell me that wasn't an x-post.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

HA!

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Neo Jong Il looks like he gets his fashion sense from David Lynch, especially with the hair.

― earlnash, Friday, 1 October 2004 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.wdwagoner.com/WPKN-FM/images/Bill-&-Hillary-1970-New-Hav.gif

― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I swear i heard Bush say something pretty silly after all the daughter-talk, like he had to keep his daughters on a leash or something to that effect (maybe im getting different parts of the debate mixed up).

Btw, i think his daughters are hot.

He himself just looks like a confused old man, but Kerry looks like he spent a few hours in front of a hair dryer turned full-blast and pointed straight at his face.

― Adam Bruneau (oliver8bit), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

KERRY:And so I acknowledge that his daughters -- I've watched them. I've chuckled a few times at some of their comments.
BUSH: I'm trying to put a leash on them.
KERRY: Well, I know. I've learned not to do that.

I still don't get what either of them was trying to say..

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry was trying to say "I respect his family". Bush was trying to say "I am molesting my daughters every chance I get", at which point Kerry said "That always ends in tears, dude".

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Translation:

Kerry: Your daughters are pretty funny.
Bush: I'm trying to get em under control.
Kerry: You really need to be more flexible as a parent.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:27 (twenty-one years ago)

(Rather more seriously; it was a more-sincere-than-insincere attempt by both candidates to humanize themselves by show respect to the other one's family which Kerry turned into a fairly hilarious "See, I can raise kids better than you, too" stealth jibe.)

(xpost what Alex said)

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I am guessing it's just a matter of time before someone photoshops something together involving the Bush daughters on a leash and Abu Ghraib, right?

I am still shuddering from the incredibly uncomfortable "anecdotal" moment where Bush told the story about the woman whose husband died in Iraq, and how he was working hard to "love" her or something, and how they had "teared up" and then "had some laughs" (?!?!?!?!?)

But, yeah, Kerry wiped the floor with him in every respect. Even if you're just going by appearances, Kerry's calm demeanor made Bush's literal squirming that much more projected.

Kerry's going to win, goddamn it.

― Taxi Dancing in the Soft Prison (Ben Boyer), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Whoa, I had no idea Bill Clinton was ever that hairy!

I think I'm in love.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah he said something weird & gross like "I tried to love her." xpost

― mcd (mcd), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

"And, you know, I think about Missy Johnson, fantastic young lady I met in Charlotte, N.C., she and her son, Brian. They came to see me. Her husband, P.J., got killed-been in Afghanistan, went to Iraq. You know, it's hard work to try to love her as best as I can knowing full well that the decision I made caused her, her loved one to be in harm's way."

― mcd (mcd), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Those unsympathetic war widows. How good of Bush to make the effort!

― Laura E (laurae55), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:58 (twenty-one years ago)

it's hard work to try to love her as best as I can

Got the horn then, eh George?

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 1 October 2004 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

He's just a gigalo.

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:00 (twenty-one years ago)

"I've been watching your daughters" is a creepy thing to say.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.trigonalmayhem.com/bigthreerave.jpg

― Professor Challenger (ex machina), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Young Hilary looks a lot like Hope Davis.

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

HAHAHAHAHA Did Kerry only have one had above the podium when he said that?

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:03 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.thefirsttwins.com/images/boogiewoogie.gif

― mcd (mcd), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:11 (twenty-one years ago)

http://mfile.akamai.com/8082/rm/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/video/faces/faces.ram

I didn't watch the debate on C-Span so I missed out on some of this fun.

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:33 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.wdwagoner.com/WPKN-FM/images/Bill-&-Hillary-1970-New-Hav.gif http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Newsweek/Photos/mag/040202_Issue/040124_EdwardsLawSchool_hu.standard.jpg

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:37 (twenty-one years ago)

"Thinkin' of you's workin' up my appetite
looking forward to a little afternoon delight..."

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

ally otm. all politicians have forgotten about dre.

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:40 (twenty-one years ago)

When we say, oh, we can't expect voters with careers and families to find out about this or that, is that democracy's fault, or capitalism's? (I don't really know.)

Capitalism? Capitalism didn't create the concept of limited time. Do you seriously believe that if there was no capitalism, then we would all live in some kind of idyllic kingdom of plenty where all our needs would be met and we could sit around all day and contemplate matters of international diplomacy? Talk about utopian dreams...

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 17:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you seriously believe that if there was no capitalism, then we would all live in some kind of idyllic kingdom of plenty where all our needs would be met and we could sit around all day and contemplate matters of international diplomacy? Talk about utopian dreams...

Whoa whoa whoa HOLD ON THERE HOSS, I'm not saying THAT.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 1 October 2004 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I heard it was you
Talkin' 'bout a world
Where all is free
It just couldn't be
And only a fool would say that

― Michael White (Hereward), Friday, 1 October 2004 18:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry if I overreacted a bit there, Michael D, I hadn't had my coffee break yet.

Anyway, on a different subject, I think it's funny that some of the carefully negotiated terms of the debate seem to have backfired on the Bush campaign. For instance, they wanted the foreign policy debate to come first, since historically more people watch the first debate, and they wanted to play to Bush's strengths. However, by being better prepared and more articulate, Kerry was able to win the debate on what should have been Bush's home turf, thereby confronting head-on the doubts that many voters seem to have about him on security issues. I think this does a lot more for Kerry than if he had just won a debate on domestic issues, which people would have expected anyway.

Another example is the visible timer lights on the podiums (podia?). No doubt someone in the Bush campaign thought it would be a brilliant stroke to have a visible signal whenever the long-winded Kerry went over time. What they didn't anticipate is that Kerry is a very disciplined debater and he consistently stopped on a dime. Furthermore, by making the lights visible it also made it more obvious when someone went under their allotted time, as frequently happened to Bush when he seemed to run out of things to say.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 1 October 2004 19:09 (twenty-one years ago)

the clip that the bbc is showing of 'young american voters' reacting to the debates contains the following exchange (i'm paraphrasing):

interviewer (off screen): "so what do the think of the candidates performance tonight?"
bouncy teenage girl dressed in at least 8 colours: "well, bush is an idiot, but i'm still voting for him".
i: why?
btcdiat8c: "cos kerry is a bigger idiot"

ARGHHHHHH GET ONE BRAIN TEEN MORANS

― m. (mitchlnw), Friday, 1 October 2004 21:20 (twenty-one years ago)

speaking of voter registration -if anyone has the time and is into it, you can help to register young democratic voters and generally get the anti-bush vote out in Ohio, Oregon and Minnesota with a group called Votemob. I went to Columbus last weekend with a group from New York -downtownfordemocracy.org do bus trips from NY every weekend -$20 fare, and free accommodation in Ohio. Last weekend about 50 of us went down. Its a very chilled-out bunch of people, mainly early-twenties well meaning hipster types, and its pretty fulfilling to be doing something useful about all of this. And Columbus is great -we went to the most open-minded and fun party I have been to in ages there -far less guardedness and posing than you get in NY...

― Conor (Conor), Friday, 1 October 2004 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

speaking of ohio, don't know if anybody has posted this yet, so:

http://actforvictory.org/ohiofraud.php

― chuck, Friday, 1 October 2004 22:43 (twenty-one years ago)

it's so much easier to practice your love with women whose kids you didn't kill

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 1 October 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

nonono, SENT to be killed.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 1 October 2004 23:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Ugh! Watching the righty spin doctors and neo-conservative pundits desperately scrambling to assert Bush's "steadfast leadership" last night is really making my stomach turn.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 2 October 2004 01:29 (twenty-one years ago)

why is the next debate on a friday night? no-one is fucking home on a friday night!

― kyle (akmonday), Saturday, 2 October 2004 01:43 (twenty-one years ago)

That's why you're posting from a net cafe, then.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 2 October 2004 01:51 (twenty-one years ago)

ahhhhh, ya got me. I am sitting on my ass eating bread in my robe.

― kyle (akmonday), Saturday, 2 October 2004 01:54 (twenty-one years ago)

heh. ONE OF US....ONE OF US....

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 2 October 2004 02:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I started watching the debates with a certain hum in my brain, knowing this community would be posting away. When I was finally able to log on this morning, there were 618 posts. Thank you. I really felt like crying and cheering because this community made the debates important, irreverent, informative, irrepressible and...that's all my i words at this time.

― aimurchie, Saturday, 2 October 2004 02:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I wanted to say the above before I offered my analysis. The one thing I want to offer that has not been covered in any media I have seen...it may have been touched upon here, but...Bush did his big shout out to the Christian fundamentalist right by, first, throwing out his "We are a culture of life." phrase and second, his "We have climbed...and look towards a valley of peace." He was staring directly into the television monitor and soothing the radical right with biblical references. Because, if he didn't, they wouldn't vote for him, and what would that mean for him during the rapture?

― aimurchie, Saturday, 2 October 2004 03:02 (twenty-one years ago)

....and that made my skin crawl.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Saturday, 2 October 2004 03:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm home because (a) i have no life (b) i'm TELECOMMUTING this weekend (in the harold and kumar "it's friday night! here's a big stack of work! thanks!" sense) and i'm pretending that i'm staying in to get a head start on the job.

w/r/t kerry -- i do believe that "poise" (which isn't just a physical attribute) and debating skills do paint a picture of how a president might conduct himself in office. i want a president who's an organized thinker, who can present an opinion with clarity even if it's a conflicted opinion. i want a president who can speak well, someone who can be a walking advertisement for what education in america can be when it's taken seriously (the success of those fancy new england prep schools might serve as a model for the handful of public schools that still have a fighting chance). i want a president who's demonstrably good at something (like debating/public speaking); if he can do that, he may just have the brains and werewithal to be good at things that really do matter. call me crazy.

re kerry's "smugness" -- eh, maybe, but i saw it more as slyness. when bush is smug, he looks stupid and infantile. kerry's sly smirk might come from self-satisfaction, but it's a different sort; i can tell that when kerry is watching bush he's thinking, processing, analyzing, deconstructing, and if he's pleased with himself it's because he's just caught some spark of inspiration. kerry looks bright (hard to tell under all the grooming, but it's true, he does). bush's smug smirk says nothing but "i'm rubber, you're glue, nyeh nyeh. i want some ribs."

― pfeffernuesse (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 2 October 2004 03:24 (twenty-one years ago)

1. Once again, Bush reaches out to his hard right, and Kerry reaches out to the moderate right that isn't even his to reach out to ("It really is a dangerous world out there, and we DO need a strong daddy to protect us, but a strong SMART daddy is better.").

2. German papers are very uneasy about the debate -- there's general recognition that Kerry is by far the better candidate, but extreme unease with K's plans for allies, as if Kerry thinks that being talked to nicely will get Germany wrapped around America's finger again. (It will, but) Europeans have a sense that diplomacy is much more than just friendly persuasion.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Saturday, 2 October 2004 06:27 (twenty-one years ago)

"We have climbed...and look towards a valley of peace." He was staring directly into the television monitor and soothing the radical right with biblical references.

at this point is when i yelled "oh FUCK you" at the tube in the bar.

anybody want to see the vid from last night's Daily Show? hit me up on soulseek... Jon's pretty much about to call bullshit to Guilani's face.

http://www.youforgotpoland.com/

― Lt. Kingfish Del Pickles (Kingfish), Saturday, 2 October 2004 07:26 (twenty-one years ago)

-- Joe Kay (nuramur...), October 1st, 2004.

-- Colin Meeder (amisrau...), October 2nd, 2004.

At least Kerry understands diplomacy -- trying to find points where a negotiating party's self-interest coincides with a common interest. Bush's attitude toward diplomacy reminds me of Dr. Strangelove and the video for Relax by Frankie Goes to Hollywood. His attack on Kerry's global test for preemptive action seems to be at odds with his rhetoric on spreading democracy: he doesn't seem to believe that people act based upon their beliefs or that nations can hold each other accountable, not just for altruistic reasons either but to get along.

― youn, Sunday, 3 October 2004 06:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry cheated!!! - http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc57.htm

This is too funny to say anything about, but you know Rush and co. are going to take it completely serious.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 4 October 2004 00:23 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.pandagon.net/mtarchives/k-ecartoon.gif

― Sir Kingfish Beavis D'Azzmonch (Kingfish), Monday, 4 October 2004 05:07 (twenty-one years ago)

the cheat thing has already been killed...by the NY Post...

― Sir Kingfish Beavis D'Azzmonch (Kingfish), Monday, 4 October 2004 08:10 (twenty-one years ago)

that is the cutest political button i've ever seen...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Monday, 4 October 2004 08:24 (twenty-one years ago)

as usual, BushCo is trying to distract from its own problem - the accusation that Bush was wearing an earpiece, which might explain his bizarre long pauses while answering (and, perhaps, his non-sequitur "let me finish!" outburst) and his strange head movements and facial expressions while not. maybe the Bush people were so downcast after the debate not just because he lost, but more because he may have revealed the man behind the curtain

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 4 October 2004 11:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Wouldn't a more likely cause of his "let me finish" outburst be the warning lights turning on?

The earpiece claim is just a little more ridiculous than the cheat-sheet - you don't think Kerry or any of his handlers or anyone working for the networks or the other hundreds of people near the stage wouldn't notice?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 4 October 2004 12:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I wouldn't be surprised if GWB had someone in the audience giving hand signals of what talking point to use. That would partly explain why Bush only had about five things to say. (Hand signals being given by one-armed man.)

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 4 October 2004 12:04 (twenty-one years ago)

that's a marvellous piece on conspiracy nonsense, pretty well picked to bits in the comments under it...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Monday, 4 October 2004 12:09 (twenty-one years ago)

you're saying that he was talking to a light? both candidates often continued talking briefly after the last one went on, Kerry more than Bush admittedly.

If he was wearing an earpiece, I'm not sure that kerry's people didn't notice; they probably did. Why do you assume they would have made a big stink about it? If you saw the split-screen, Kerry repeatedly tried to get Lehrer's attention visually for rebuttals, and when Lehrer turned him down or didn't notice and moved on, Kerry securely acknowledged him or calmly went back to writing notes, i.e. he was trying very hard not to act defensive about process - calling out Bush for wearing a wire would have made him look whiny and loser-ish. He doesn't have the right personality - cold, mean entitlement - to pull off an "i paid for this microphone"-type line, and even if he did, it probably wouldn't be to his advantage.

(xp: I didn't read all the comments; that link makes my browser act funny)

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 4 October 2004 12:10 (twenty-one years ago)

and do you think anyone wouldn't notice Kerry - right in front of Bush and Lehrer and tv cameras - pulling something out of his pocket and putting it on the lectern?!

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 4 October 2004 12:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Was there a rule against writing notes on your arm?

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 4 October 2004 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

the comments basically point out that any bulge under his jacket was:

a. the microphone transmitter
b. his bulletproof vest

and that the "let me finish" was probably to a visual prompt from the moderator and not the light, which wasn't on at the time...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Monday, 4 October 2004 12:27 (twenty-one years ago)

you're saying that he was talking to a light? both candidates often continued talking briefly after the last one went on, Kerry more than Bush admittedly.
No, I'm saying that a not-too-brilliant and highly flustered man was responding to someone telling him to hurry it up (either the light or a visual or whatever). You've never responded verbally to a nonverbal prompt?

Every time I start to feel a little bit of sympathy with Kerry supporters from something stupid like the cheat-sheet, something like this comes along to make me realize that you lot are just as stupid (or dishonest) and prone to whining and conspiracies as the other side.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 4 October 2004 12:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Stupidity on all sides shocker!

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Monday, 4 October 2004 13:01 (twenty-one years ago)

kingfish-where did you find that button? it is the most adorable thing ever. i must have!

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Monday, 4 October 2004 13:01 (twenty-one years ago)

found it at Pandagon.net

just check the link addr.

― Sir Kingfish Beavis D'Azzmonch (Kingfish), Monday, 4 October 2004 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

"Every time I start to feel a little bit of sympathy with Kerry supporters from something stupid like the cheat-sheet, something like this comes along to make me realize that you lot are just as stupid (or dishonest) and prone to whining and conspiracies as the other side."

Yes well the major difference is that the PRESS in the US reports on shit like Kerry's cheat sheet while all the left's silliness is basically relegated to threads like these and goofy pamphlets.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:07 (twenty-one years ago)

It's more frustrating to me (as someone on 'the left'). Every time I feel some kinship with the centrists and their candidate, such as laughing together at the kooks and fools, someone either lives up to the lib'rul cliche or engages in the same kooky/foolish behavior and reminds me that the only real difference seems to be party affiliation.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 4 October 2004 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

the little button/icon thing is done by Travis Williams, at http://travisty.net/

also,

http://www.pandagon.net/mtarchives/thenote.jpg

― kingfish, Monday, 4 October 2004 16:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Kerry whacks Bush on stem cells:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20041004/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_20

I had no idea Michael J. Fox has Parkinson's. He seems far too young.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:36 (twenty-one years ago)

This is a fun little toy. "Hard work" was mentioned eleven times.

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Monday, 4 October 2004 17:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Alex Keaton with a Democrat!

― kyle (akmonday), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:09 (twenty-one years ago)

MJF has been doing a lot of parkinsons awareness stuff ever since it came out that he had it, particularly to do with the "it's not just old people who suffer" side of things.

fergal henderson from st john (our favourite offal restaurant) has it as well...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Monday, 4 October 2004 18:28 (twenty-one years ago)

milo, i never would have posted that stuff if you hadn't run so lovingly into Drudge's arms. similar goes for 80% of the stuff I post on ILX

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 4 October 2004 23:23 (twenty-one years ago)

it's ok for you, but not for us.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 4 October 2004 23:23 (twenty-one years ago)

the comments basically point out that any bulge under his jacket was:
a. the microphone transmitter
b. his bulletproof vest

and that the "let me finish" was probably to a visual prompt from the moderator and not the light, which wasn't on at the time...

yes, this reading of 'let me finish' is totally plausible, but also based upon assumed facts. i choose for myself not to make the assumption either way, but i'll assume there were no visual clues if someone else assumes that there were.

i also base nothing on the thing on his back, which I assumed was unrelated. Bush has $250 million plus; i think he could afford an earpiece that doesn't require one.

meanwhile, Bush had his own cheat sheet

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 4 October 2004 23:26 (twenty-one years ago)

OMG milo, Kerry called Fox "Michael Keaton"! He's gonna lose! Roffle!

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 4 October 2004 23:27 (twenty-one years ago)

You can download an audio copy of the first debate from iTunes for free now, I see.

― Girolamo Savonarola, Monday, 4 October 2004 23:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Gabbneb, "run lovingly into Drudge's arms"? Are you fucking illiterate?

Kerry cheated!!! - http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc57.htm

This is too funny to say anything about, but you know Rush and co. are going to take it completely serious.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 00:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Gabbneb has the tendency to read the most negative meaning possible into the statements of the people he's arguing with; surely we're at the point where this can be recognized, acknowledged and clarified without rancor and cursing?

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 01:30 (twenty-one years ago)

awww, can't we have just a little cursing?

― Sir Kingfish Beavis D'Azzmonch (Kingfish), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 01:55 (twenty-one years ago)

especially when they're using bad grammar, Dan

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 02:39 (twenty-one years ago)

And yet no one else had trouble figuring it out.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

right, i'm ducking the issue. i am fucking illiterate. real professional hazard.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 02:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I was, of course, being completely literal in suggesting that you are incapable of reading and/or writing.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 02:48 (twenty-one years ago)

now, boys...

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 02:53 (twenty-one years ago)

the tendency to read the most negative meaning possible into the statements of the people he's arguing with

Maybe we all do this and it's a matter of temperament or personal style as to whether or not we let the other person know. Occasionally, my mother even surprises me.

In the next debate, I hope Kerry can lay out a visionary plan, that he can make all his points add up to something that inspires people. In the last debate, I thought Bush was strongest, even though he wasn't offering anything concrete, when he tried to strike that note. Kerry has a lot to go on. For example, today I read that moderate Jews and Arab Americans, like others, are concerned about the protection of civil rights and the potential for abuse under the Patriot Act. It's not just no racial profiling and criticizing Ashcroft. It has to be more than that. Last time, Kerry showed his analytical skills to advantage. He shied away from asserting the relevance of personal characteristics, but since so much is contingent and depends upon compromise, that's what people have to go on.

― youn, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 06:45 (twenty-one years ago)

You can download an audio copy of the first debate from iTunes for free now, I see.

CASSETTE BOY TO THREAD!!!!

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 08:04 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.isbushwired.com/

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Wednesday, 6 October 2004 20:49 (twenty-one years ago)

No really. It's starting to creep me out.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041012/i/r2362703777.jpg

― Pleasant Plains (Pleasant Plains), Tuesday, 12 October 2004 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Is McCain making out with Jenna Bush?

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 00:15 (twenty-one years ago)

"Sorry my dad ran those racist push-polls against you in South Carolina. How about some sugar?"

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Wednesday, 13 October 2004 00:19 (twenty-one years ago)

seven years pass...

CNN / GALLUP POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE
Kerry: 53
Bush: 37

CBS POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE:

Kerry: 44
Bush: 26
Tie: 30

ABC POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE:

Kerry: 45
Bush 36:
Tie: 17

― frankE (frankE), Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:06 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Kerry seems to be enjoying this romping

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:30 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― pplains, Thursday, 4 October 2012 14:10 (thirteen years ago)

Never Forget (Poland)

― pplains, Thursday, 4 October 2012 14:10 (thirteen years ago)

Haha

― Raymond Cummings, Thursday, 4 October 2012 14:13 (thirteen years ago)

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