Post-election down-ness (i don't wanna call it depression)

*USA OUT OF NYC*

So, how is Iceland this time of year? I'm thinking of packin' up the homestead and "pulling a Jaz".

what th?

Ha! It wasn't B0b Po11ard, was it?

Four more years of fascism which will probably see all of us finished off.

John Peel dead.

Theo van Gogh dead.

People getting murdered for sitting on the South Bank and minding their own business.

Cancer.

I am not looking forward to 2005.

Classic.

I've always believed that the vast majority of Americans were intellectually lazy and easily fooled. And I've been proven right... We Blue Staters need to protect our interests. The first thing we need to do is force our elected officials to work across party lines and keep our tax money in our states, and not let it be used to prop up the rotting infrastructure of middle America.

Your elitism interests me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

The First Avenue nightclub in Minneapolis closed it's doors at 1:30 pm and let go all of it's employees. It's not certain that it will reopen. It's very possible it will either be bought by Clear Channel or the House of Blues. This was my favorite place in the world, especially the 7th Street Entry.

Definition of marriage initiatives passed all over.

My band played the stupidest, most poorly organized and poorly attended show I have ever been involved in in 8+ years of playing music locally. It was a "get out the vote" show.

Yesterday was probably one of the worst days I can ever remember, excepting days when family memebers of mine died.

I am very depressed right now.

Yeah, I was about to say. Then again, it goes both ways here -- on the one hand, like 2000, Bush can hardly claim thorough mandate. But on the other hand, he acted like he had for these four years and still looks to have won anyway.

yes. but i would think scalia more likely. and of the two, i guess i would prefer the one who is not on record having discussed pubic hair.

Senator 1: "If only he'd knock over a bank."

Senator 2: "By God, we'd have him then!"

i weep.

they're listening to robbie williams in the office. how fucked is it that americans have resisted his relative benignity for over a decade, yet roll over for the great satan bush?

I went to the offices of Liberation today.

are you french tracerhand ? don't wqrry it's not in order to throw a republican intifada on you, just that i'm french and in paris too...

http://mobile.theonion.com/news2.html

Seems that way, doesn't it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2004/story?id=213285&page=1

Well, how does he stand on the moral issues? No, not the ones about war and poverty, that's not morality, that's pinko crap. I mean about homosexuality and abortion?

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/03/election.main/top.bush.tuesday.ap.jpg

That's how I feel today.

Sorry, Belgium already claimed him. It is a sad world we're living in.

Joking aside (and joking is my way of dealing with things) ... I am actually surprised at how upset I have been by all this. I spent most of the morning alternating crying and shouting things at the television set.

most of all, I'm scared.

When my (Republican) brother starts saying things like:

I publicly called for his defeat myself, but I would not advise you to make gestures that will get you entered into government databases you're better off not being in.  Given that you're family, those of us residing in this country also do not need any trouble down the road.

My friends are saying things like "it's only four more years" but I can't view that as optimism.

I didn't think i would be this upset, but I am.

Four more years until what?

Even Kerry's loss doesn't hurt as bad as watching America write it's homophobia into law, or elect that scumbag Coburn or the drooling idiot Bunning, or the nutcase DeMint. Why stop there America? Why not elect Alan Fucking Keyes, too and make it a fucking party? I fucking weep for my species.

On the public level, I'm dismayed and ashamed about what this election says about America.

What meaningful means of resistance are available? What can I hope for?

Oh well, at least I had 10 minutes.

... until they are both shut down, that is.

I want to buy them.

I can't imagine how "real" Americans feel. I feel ashamed enough in my powerlessness that I can't even vote, and change this, yet I still carry the stigma of this accent. I don't want to just turn in my green card, I want to get an accent coach and erase any evidence that I ever lived there.

Kate frankly that attitude makes me want to barf. On your shoes. Pull yourself together.

I'm sickened and I'm angry. I know that there are vast swathes of America that are a cultural and news-based desert (I had to shout at one of the housemates here because she had Fox news on) but for christs sake. I'd like to think that Red-State Americans are not to blame for their own ignorance, and I'd like to think that it's nothing to do with GREED or FEAR or WILLFUL IGNORANCE... but... sorry, I'm too angry to be articulate.

I'm not sure I believe that THAT MANY Americans could really be duped, with the wealth of information freely available on the internet. I give the American public more credit. They're duped because they allowed themselves to be, or because they thought it was in their best interests to be. I *do* blame the dupees, and the fuxors who just couldn't be bothered to vote.

I have to go now, so i will not be responding to this any further, sorry.

i think tracer's fight is important here.

Tracer, just from the reactions of my R-leaning family members with access to *all* the facts, there are a lot of people who just aren't worried enough about their civil and reproductive rights to see how vulnerable Bush is making these, and how much advantage is being taken of their insularity. Also, you can have conversations with people in this demographic who'd NEVER discriminate against a gay person and who have received abortions (yo sis!) who then go insular on issues like immigration, welfare and tax because they perceive threats to their freedom and lifestyle from all the wrong places.

One thing I have tried to explain to Americans who don't travel, when I'm talking about terrorism, is that European countries with a long colonial record endure attacks/retaliations from those they have colonised/are trying to. America is now moving into a recognised role as a coloniser, whether you're talking about the government or any number of large corporations that brand-identify as American, and YES that makes you a target because this is a global issue and NO you don't live in a vacuum.

I am very worried about Bush in the future smugly stating 'well, this is what you voted for' as he strips the country of its assets.

Hi effete elitist here, and I'm saying that the above kind of thinking is just going to get us more of the same. For too long we have expected people to be motivated by the greater good, when in fact most people are motivated by fear, greed and stupidity. I have no interested in getting “connected” with the lowest common denominator. I’m tired of being ruled by their superstition, their cheap morals and hypocrisy, and most of all their blind allegiance to a cult of personality. Plus their food sucks, their music is bad and their clothes are goofy.

But. I'm now convinced that the non-institutional left, while remaining true to the Democrats, needs to become more culturally radical and outspoken. I'm not talking about moronic WTO protesters. I'm saying we need a leftist Christian Coalition. The existing groups are devoted to disseminating facts and trusting people to make the right decision. That's not enough, clearly. MoveOn may be going in the right direction, but we need to go further.

As a movement, we have to triangulate, or use negotiation strategy - the further left the culture, the more reasonable will appear the nominee.

Well that's just it, I don't know this, and even knowing it doesn't quite help. I DON'T equate Americans with Rush Limbaugh, I have a much highrer opiunion of them, which is why I thought they would elect Kerry. Why didn't they? I need to understand. And I'm with Kate on this: I refuse to believe that voters in the most populous areas of Florida, Ohio, Virginia didn't know the issues, or the nature of the candidates. Maybe that's my problem.

I doubt however, that if I do reach some understanding about what factors made voters elect Bush, I'll think they're all a bunch of idiots or something. I mean there must be some REASON(S) for it, and
I want to find out. I'll likely never AGREE with a Bush vote, but I may understand it.

-what about the quakers? they seem pretty diametrically opposed to the evangelical christian right. i realize that they are a tiny group and all but they are as leftist a christian organization as i can think of right now.

This country mouse/city mouse argument is interesting to me since I lived in the city and moved to the suburbs. My views have not changed very much. Most of the Republicans I know or see and talk to every day are decent folks, not psycho gay-bashing Bible swordsmen. Maybe it's a symptom of where I live that people are more reasonable, and not the norm, but I think a lot of the folk that voted Repub are probably pretty harmless but saw no redeeming qualities in Kerry or his campaign. I think people will vote for someone they like and trust regardless of political affiliation. That said, Republicans are way more likely to identify themselves as Republicans and vote accordingly regardless of who's running than Dems, it appears. What the hell, I don't know. But I'm feeling down like the rest.

(If anyone couldn't figure out I was sarcastic, I will hunt you down like dogs.)

I think we might be sort of agreeing, but I don't think we're agreeing enough that it'll make a damn bit of difference.

in retrospect, the "Bush is drinking deeper from his poisoned chalice" analogy is making a lot more sense, given Colin's hope and scenario in mind... perhaps the "things have to get worse before they get better" thing is indeed true with this Bush win.

let's admit it.. a Kerry win would have further lulled the Dems into centrist purgatory. A Kerry vote on my part was just as much a vote of fear just as a Bush vote for fear was. I think a lot of Kerry voters are pissed because they voted out of informed fear. I'm admitting it right now. In fact, I'm guessing this has been a 99% vote of fear all across the table. 9/11 is becoming more of a chimera every year, albeit at a slower pace than I wish. but it will reach that state eventually. and the fear factor might one day fade.

(On the flip, I am just hoping we can make it through the next four years without too much damage to American lives and liberties, hence why I started that other thread... )

when? Clinton appears to be evidence to the contrary.

I'm not sure I understand.

Both Clinton and Bush have proven this to be effective. Why couldn't Kerry?

perhaps, but i'd like an example of a failed stylistic campaign. (Kerry might well be such an example, but I think he was more an ad-hoc candidate.)

reading this again it at first seems totally wrong, but i'll try to explain better - smart city people just assumed everyone would agree with them when they heard the facts. they didn't take the time to develop an effective, less rational language of support for their position.

(xpost)

???????????????????

First you put the Bush voters in a giant wok, then you stir while they fry. Mmmmmmm.

Kentucky, why must you, a state so beautiful, so full of resources, be home to so many festering piles of human dilshit moss excrement!?!?

If you really want to understand why Bush won, just read through this thread. Ignore all the snarky condescension about the idiocy, cluelessness, evilness, gullibility, etc. of Americans. Instead, look through this thread for clues about what the people so incensed with Bush’s victory really believe, what policies they really support, and you’ll find out why Bush won.

To wit:

[i]Ditto. Those fucking moral values, the fucking God thing. Infinitely depressing.
-- The Lex (alex.macpherso...), November 3rd, 2004.

One thing I have tried to explain to Americans who don't travel, when I'm talking about terrorism, is that European countries with a long colonial record endure attacks/retaliations from those they have colonised/are trying to. America is now moving into a recognised role as a coloniser, whether you're talking about the government or any number of large corporations that brand-identify as American, and YES that makes you a target because this is a global issue and NO you don't live in a vacuum.
-- suzy (theartskooldisk...), November 3rd, 2004.

The one possible silver lining I can see is that the result may knock some sense into Europe and motivate the EU to get its act together. It's clearer than ever before that the European social democratic model is very different to the bellicose corporate theocracy that America is developing into

-- Jonathan Z. (zin...), November 3rd, 2004.[/i]

Take these together and you can see what the bedrock principles of good modern leftists are:

1) Christian moral values are obsolete, and should have no place in our society
2) Terrorism is not a big problem, and it’s only retaliation for our own sins
3) The European social democratic model is superior to American-style capitalism

The reason Kerry lost is that half of his supporters believe all those things, but half don’t, and he spent the whole campaign trying to do his triangulation tap dance between those positions.

His campaign was plagued by the fundamental problem facing the far left in America today - namely, that only about 1/4-1/3 of Americans agree with their worldview. They don't have enough for a party of their own, so they have to glom onto the Democratic machine, mask their real views (read Kerry's position on gay marriage sometime, or check out those bitchin' huntin' photos) and fight on conservative turf.

In contrast, Bush offered a clear program in stark contrast to the left worldview. He pretty clearly stands for a more aggressive war against Islamic terrorists, more capitalism and not less, and a larger place for Christian values in public life.

Americans just chose the candidate that most forcefully rejected the worldview of your typical ilx lefty. And that’s why your typical ilx lefty is pretty angry with America right now.

You mean like Pennsylvania, Illinois, Michigan ... ?

What I'm kind of trying to say here is that the next person who wishes death on a bunch of Ohioans (??), who I might add only HALF of which are guilty of the vast and horrifying crime of disagreeing with ILX, I kind of wish they get sodomized by a fucking bee stick, held by John Kerry himself.

1. Lifestyle and moral choices should not be dictacted by central government.

2. Terrorism has a cause.

3. Europe is more leftwing. Leftists believe in the left.

1) Christian moral values are obsolete, and should have no place in our society
2) Terrorism is not a big problem, and it’s only retaliation for our own sins
3) The European social democratic model is superior to American-style capitalism

See, morons on the right really believe this bullshit already. How are we going to convince them otherwise? We're not. So let's play along and say shit we don't believe. If we can drown them out, the way Reagan choked discourse, we can force them to appeal to reality as a ground for compromise, rather than ideology.

About Ohio - part of it is the midwest, part of it is the South, part of it is Appalachia, and part of it is the great lakes. Most of the swing states are such border areas, in which regions cancel one another out.

I'm American and I live in Britain very near to places that have been bombed silly by the IRA, but other than the basic urban common sense of making sure that bag on that seat is attended, terrorism is not a pressing forefront-of-mind concern to most people who live here, at least not compared to the way this emotive topic is framed by Americans who are statistically less likely to be affected, though raw from exposure to 911/War on Terror. Then again, the first WTC incident, Waco, OK City were all committed by a range of terrorists and nobody said the sky was falling then!

Our (intermittent) terror here is historic fallout from colonialism, when government and corporate interests became one in the same and were wielded over disenfranchised or otherwise neutered subjects (often religious, political or racial groups who feel viscerally oprressed). America, as embodied by this administration and its corporate ties, is echoing this familiar model reworked for a global age, and cannot read a history book because of the same myopia which prevents it from putting its place in the world in honest perspective.

of course, if you replace "The European social democratic model" with "Chinese-style crony capitalism," this is a pretty good description of the second Bush administration

I still can't figure out why the fuck the midwest and the south are more worthy of ire than these g roups of people. ESPECIALLY FEMALES AND MINORITIES WHO SHOULD ALL KNOW BETTER AND ARE ACTIVELY VOTING AGAINST PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST THEM. I have far, far more ire for my roommate and my mother, both hispanic females, than I do any faceless sod in Ohio. Sorry Alex et al!

Look, I don't actually wish death on anyone in Ohio (well, maybe one or two), and in fact, in my original statement I just said fuck you to a bunch of states, not GO DIE! (though on another thread, I did tell some fascist flag-waver to go eat hot death). That all said, I don't place blame on the entirety of States (`cept for maybe Louisiana -- fuck those people), but like Ally -- on INDIVIDUALS. If you voted for Bush -- FUCK YOU, YOU'RE A DUMB SHIT!!!!

That better?

heh.

Anyway, Alex I wasn't yelling at you with my statement! Just do a find all on Ohio on this thread!

60.1 Indiana
61.2 Texas
61.9 Alaska
62.2 Kansas
62.5 Alabama
62.9 North Dakota
65.6 Oklahoama
66.7 Nebraksa
68.5 Idaho
69.0 Wyoming
70.9 Utah

State where Kerry got more than 60% of the vote:

62.1 Massachusetts
89.5 DC

-- Andrew Farrell (afarrel...), November 3rd, 2004 4:21 PM. (afarrell) (later) (link)

3) The European social democratic model is superior to American-style capitalism

Well, yes. The thing this election has taught me is that at the end of the day, I am actually English, and although I have many problems with England and its political system, its beliefs are closer to my own than the ruthless Consumerism of America.

This is the day that has taught me that I am not American, and despite 15 years of living in America, I will never be American. Although most of my English friends may consider me two steps from a Tory for some of my political and economic beliefs, I am still a radical when compared with the majority of America.

My accent is not representative of who I am. I feel like America is just not my responsibility, but I no longer want to be held responsible for it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13192-2004Jun28.html?nav=rss_politics

Democrats ought not to forget that they didn't do 'badly' here by any measure; they got 3-4 million more votes than Gore managed. They fought vigorously and well, if not perhaps as wisely/mathematically as Rove did. The debates alone showed Kerry to be a thoroughly adequate candidate, and rather better versed for the job, certainly by any sensible (heck, aye, 'European') yardstick.

There is validity in railing against the status quo of "USA PLC"; people look for key signifiers in a candidate, not for any depth of ability, or even for *whose policies will help them most or are more workable*...

But, I'm afraid there must be an element of UK Labour Party rethink, circa 1992 here... there is absolutely no need to go veering off away from the party's principles like Blair did; but the Democrats must think hard about campaigning strategies, and how to be able to target the key edging-Republican states. I see no problem with a Democrat Presidential candidate adopting an everyman, middle-America tone, as long as they will still pay heed to key party principles. Note that Bush got in in 2000 on a moderate conservative platform, yet has still been able since then to play to the gallery of his party and move the country in a conservative direction. The Democrats must basically try and establish the validity of their political project, and put it in the terms of ordinary people; they must talk to the un-converted, all the way. They may have help if the Republicans/Bush mess up badly in the next 2/4 years, which seems entirely feasible, given the form.

Here's a few things that may be unlikely, but ya never know:

Maybe my optimisim is too pollyannish. Maybe my pessimism is too dark. Realistically, the next four years may not be as bad as we think it will be.

Cuz Lord knows, it can't get that much worse, can it?

Now all the truth is out,
Be secret and take defeat
From any brazen throat,
For how can you compete,
Being honour bred, with one
Who, were it proved he lies,
Were neither shamed in his own
Nor in his neighbours' eyes?
Bred to a harder thing
Than Triumph, turn away
And like a laughing string
Whereon mad fingers play
Amid a place of stone,
Be secret and exult,
Because of all things known
That is most difficult.

William Butler Yeats

But thinking about young people in GB today; they don't have particularly strong beliefs/values, whether in politics or religion. This works in both ways; while one is dispirited by the political side of it (many are indeed tacit Thatcherites), at least we can say they are not taken in by hardline religious dogma.

Awesome thread.

Ed ftw:

One thing I really don't want to hear about right now is speculation about which Democrat is viable as a candidate in 2008! No Democrat is viable as a candidate!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:25 AM (3 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Obama?

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, November 3, 2004 9:25 AM (3 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ha, I was just about to c+p that. Had it all italicized and everything.

This thread brings back the bad memories. I remember going to bed late that election night/morning in a state of denial. Our election night party turned sour, everyone began to drunkenly bicker with each other, and my friend passed out on a chair facing the loud tv with a beer in his hand. Miserable.

i was CRAZY emo in 04

day after '04 election = only time i was ever hungover enough to puke at work. my physical state mirrored how everyone seemed to be feeling that day.

Hillary is unelectable. I sure as hell hope someone else emerges as a credible candidate in '08.

― Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Wednesday, November 3, 2004 10:03 AM (thirteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink