suicide

I don't think it's necessarily morally wrong or anything like that, so I'm not going to address it on those terms. But there are two big things I would say about it.

1) It's a cliche, but it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Mike may be being somewhat facetious, but what he says is true. Even if you feel like you are trapped in an unworkable situation, you have not tried every option. Quit your job, leave your home, there are a thousand things you can change. Even if the worst thing you can possibly imagine happens to you (and trust me, I've been there) it's still less final than being dead. Sure, no matter where you go, you will still be yourself, and the same problems may resurface, and you can't change your life until you've changed yourself, but fuck. Wouldn't it be better to change yourself, even temporarily, rather than end yourself forever?

2) If suicide *is* wrong, for any reason, it is for the mess that it leaves behind, for those who care about you. I've seen parents, children and lovers DESTROYED by their loved ones' intentional deaths. Yes, that's a strange reason to ask someone to stay alive, but it is still a valid one. Even if you think no-one will care. Suicide is ultimately a selfish act. *Especially* if you are committing suicide with some sort of "I'll show them, they'll regret it when they're dead..." attitude, or if you are committing suicide to escape a painful relationship. This may be a controversial stance, but committing or attempting to commit suicide because of, or to spite another human being is as much of an emotional and psychological attack on them as if you had put the razor to their wrists. Don't do it.

I don't know the reasons why you want to die. I don't really want to know them either. Sorry if that sounds harsh or uncaring, but I just don't have a lot of excess emotional empathy left to spare right now. (I've come pretty close to wanting to kill myself too in the past few months.) But whatever is troubling you, there is ALWAYS another way. It takes more courage to stay alive and find it than it does to die, remember that. Failure isn't falling, it's staying down.

I wish you luck. I hope you do find someone helpful to talk to about it. I hope you find the courage that you need to make the changes that enable you to stay alive and carry on, on a different course.

Sorry if these words sound empty. Even if they're not helpful to you at all, I couldn't just say nothing.

For the longest time i didn't even try to think abt it, or what i felt: it plopped into the already voluminous "if i say i want/like it, i shall lose it" room in my brane, and festered there

the next time i decided i wanted something (= [xXx]) and realised that saying so wd certainly drive [xXx] away, even as an occasional friend (which = what happened), i found for weeks i was being struck by gusts of grief over rob, by then 9 yrs dead. Inc. bursting into tears in the street, once.

But what I increasingly realised I felt and feel today is NOT "Oh, if only i'd known, i'm sorry now he's gone how horrible things must have been" but instead "YOU BASTARD! How dare you think so little of me! How dare you run away and leave me with this stuff that can never now be resolved or explored or quietened away"...

He's turned himself over the years into this selfish kid who I no longer really like, in other words. By not being there to be who he really was. I'm just so ANGRY about what a hostile act this was, at ppl he may never even have intended hostility towards (but how will io ever know?)

It's a very hostile and aggressive act, is what I think: and the ppl who get hurt are almost never the ones who you meant to hurt, and NEVER the ones who deserve to get hurt. It's almost the only way of behaving i'm this uncontrollably judgmental (and unfair?) about.

I don't agree entirely with what everyone's said here, although I respect it. I don't quite believe that suicide is finally a uniquely selfish act - no more selfish than the other kinds of solipsism we routinely wrap ourselves in and which too often colour the way we act towards and think about other people, no more selfish than my inability to fully feel the death of someone I loved and who had loved me.

But I know that as an often miserable but living and breathing person I can't properly mentally figure death and I don't want it in my heart or my mind if I can help it. And I know that when my best friend began his string of suicide attempts a year after my nan died I didn't have to question my assumption that if I could override his death wish with my dumb life-force I would, and I don't question it now. I'd lend my life-force to anyone who needed it; I'd argue till I was blue in the face for anyone's right to kill themselves and till equally blue to stop them exercising that right. I'm glad my friend is still alive, and so is he - really, really glad. Not always happy, and often angry, and often bored, and for long periods directionless and distraught, but very, very glad.

In reply to something Kate wrote - sometimes sadists use the threat of suicide as an equivalent to threatening murder, but I don't think this is the case here.

I am so thankful now that I didn't do anything! I would have missed out on so much. My life is completely different now -- I wouldn't say I'm violently happy but I'm pretty satisfied and content, and my circumstances are a lot healthier and happier. My point is that you may be feeling a lot of pain right now, but you never know what's just around the corner. Things could be totally different for you a few months from now. But you'll never find that out unless you stick around and give life a bit more of a chance.

i've had friends die recently, lovers even, smacked down by fatal accidents in their prime. i've had friends kill themselves, acts of the ultimate in confusing desperation, especially through a veneer of the "perfect life" (beautiful, successful, etc.) no excuse, yes. horrible wound on those close to you for all time, yes. but i suppose i've seen both sides (as close as one can really, since i'm not writing this as a ghost.) the pain of my best friends suicide a few years back was softened somewhat by the fact that we had already fallen out of contact owing to a pre-existing rift. but he was a beautiful human being, much like mark's friend above, someone without whom i'd be a very different person indeed. but he did seem to have the "perfect life" so his death was even more baffling; the questions thrown up were not so much "how could you do this?" as "why would you do this?" the friend who was killed had one of the hardest, most soul-grinding lives i've ever encountered in either the annals of real life or fiction; yet, through all the pain and bullshit life thew at her she continually perservered, never once stooping to thoughts of suicide, always amazed at the beauty to be found in life.

i agree with much of what mark and kate and others said above. i also agree with what ellie said. i suppose something to be remembered in all of this is that people who are pushed or push themselves to the brink of suicide are probably not in their "right mind." therefore, it might be a bit of an impossible imposition to assume that they have the mental wherewithall to think of their friends and loved ones in the moment. it is selfishness on a grand scale, yes, but it also often seems to happen when one has been - if not self-less, then certainly not taking care of themselves for quite some time.

if he's reading, it was anthony's list of "real beauty" which made me reconsider last night; not because we necessarily share the same ideals, but that it made me contemplate my own (writing with your fingertips on a foggy car window, the delicate heartbreak in a joseph cornell box, the impious life in a cecil taylor solo.) i didn't do it. so thank you.

i doubt i will ever commit suicide; i really was thinking of it in an abstract. but that lame nitchzesian option remains, and here we are. i've been massively depressed for a good chunk of my life owing to any number of things (parental...issues, molestation/abuse, drug/alcohol issues, image issues, etc.) but i've managed to make it thus far, reveling in what little, small beauties i've experienced along the way.

and so far, that's been enough.

I am by nature an eternally optimistic, merry person, and I admit I could have little to offer to this whole thing that hasn't been said by others. All I could say, though, has already been said in this statement of your own, really. Right now I'm watching my Rocky Horror DVD, and the thought of never being able to see Tim Curry just eat the camera, the audience and most of the cast alive again would just be miserable. But not as miserable as never being able to blast "Soon" again -- very very loudly.

Support and love to you. *hugs*

I found something I could do no matter how boring I find it. I can loose myself and code and sit infront of a computer terminal and hours can slip by. I reach Nerdvana quite often nowdays.

I myself posted a particularly desperate and partly incoherent post in early October when things just didn't seem to be happening and I was - literally - minutes away from actually ending it all. I won't go into specifics but I had already started to instigate the process. My reasons for this are well documented elsewhere on these boards.

Fortunately, as a result of several similarly incoherent 'phone calls and e-mails (not to mention the replies which I received here) I quickly decided not to take it further and instead resolved to see my GP next morning to try to get a psychiatric referral (with a splitting headache!). Dr L was very understanding but reckoned that this was standard post-bereavement behaviour and thought that I just needed to get out of Oxford. So I muddled on and eventually did it. Now I'm more settled and find it a bit easier to deal with the things which have happened this year. It's still very borderline - as ever, I have to be careful not to think about things too much, and there's what would have been Laura's 37th birthday coming up next week, not to mention Xmas - but I have no doubt that had I stayed in Oxford I would have been dead by now. And I'm not being melodramatic - I really do think it would have come to that.

There are no easy answers; I'm just lucky that I have the "safety valve" within myself which I can activate at times of extreme crisis. In terms of yourself and other posters here, all I can really advise is that, dull and unprofitable though it may sound, it does pay to at least have a go at trying professional advice - not from spiritual types, necessarily, but from medical professionals who know what can be done biologically and/or physically to help you live with this state of mind - not asking you to bottle it up or discard it but rather to come to terms with it; even to use it in whatever powers your life.

So I just found out that my best friend overdosed in an attempted suicide. I've known her for about 8 years now, and she's always been a bit unstable but this comes as a complete shock. I just gone done talking to her and she seemed to be herself... but something was off, and I'm sitting here afraid that she's going to try it again..Normally I would go to her house and keep her company, but she moved away about a year ago so there's really not much that I can do. Any advice?

The Suicide Prevention Center has this to say about helping friends:

Helping Your Peers
If you think that any of your friends or classmates may be thinking of killing themselves, there are two important things you can do: Talk to them, and express your concern to a responsible adult.

Having someone to talk to can make a big difference. College students will often share secrets and feelings with their peers that they will not share with older adults. However, you may need to be persistent before they are willing to talk. Ask them if they are thinking about killing themselves. Talking about suicide or suicidal thoughts will not push someone to kill themselves. It is also not true that people who talk about killing themselves will not actually try it. Take any expressed intention of suicide very seriously.

You should be especially concerned if people tell you that they have made a detailed suicide plan or obtained a means of hurting themselves. If they announce that they are thinking of taking an overdose of prescription medication or jumping from a particular bridge, stay with them until they are willing to go with you and talk to a responsible adult-or until a responsible adult can be found who will come to you.

Don't pretend you have all the answers. The most important thing you can do may be to help them find help. Never promise to keep someone's intention to kill him- or herself a secret.

If you have talked with a friend or classmate and think that person is in danger, yet the person refuses to get help, you need to talk to a responsible adult who can intervene. You should also find a responsible adult if your friend or classmate refuses to discuss the issue with you, or if you think that you don't know the person well enough to initiate a personal conversation.

Find someone who is concerned with and understands young people and can help. This might be a member of your friend's family, or it could be a residence assistant, a professor, an administrator, a member of the clergy, or someone who works in campus mental health services or the health clinic. If this adult doesn't take you or your friend's problem seriously or doesn't know what to do, talk to someone else. Most college campuses have a mental health or emergency support network that will respond to your concern.

Don't be afraid of being wrong. It is difficult for even experts to understand who is at serious risk of suicide and who is not. Many of the warning signs for suicide could also indicate problems with drug or alcohol abuse, domestic violence, depression, or another mental illness. Young people with these problems need help-and you can help.

Not sure if your friend is in the age bracket this is directed toward, but it sounds like solid advice regardless of age. I'm very sorry to hear about your friend.

that's it, baby it's over
su-su-suicide summer...

After thinking about it, i have too many cool items i couldn't leave to anyone. i decided to grin and bear it :(

brainwasher, i'm so sorry. how is she doing? are you in touch with her? be in touch, i would say...

x-post - :-( I hope you're ok NG.

Youngest brother, age 16, has been suicidal for months. I know my parents are the worst with this kind of parenting and that his life has to be hell right now, dealing with them on top of that. Things:

1. Naturally I've had the fantasy of moving him down here (family lives 1,100 miles north of here) but it wouldn't work, if for no other reason than he has type 1 diabetes (which fucks w/a mood enough w/out my parents, high school, first breakup, puberty & clinical depression). I couldn't supplement his supplies – no insurance.

2. My parents ace at making their kids feel guilty about needing health care. Mental health stuff isn't covered under their insurance. He got anti-depressants from the family GP and has been taking them but he says they don't make that big a difference. No counseling. When he wanted to check into a local 'behavioral clinic' for teens he was told he couldn't bcz of $$$. My parents aren't poor by any means.

3. My parents just don't take this shit seriously. They write it off, even actual attempts, as 'attention-getting.' I've asked them to take the guns out of the house, and the bullets (my dad shoots handguns for fun), and they're ALWAYS like 'oh yeah, we should, huh.' Even after I told them he said to me, "It's a good thing I didn't pay attention to how to load a gun in hunter safety class, or I'd have shot myself last night." But I can't go hide guns for them!

I'm always there to listen & he calls all the time, but I hate that there's nothing else I can do! What I'm asking is: IS there anything else I can do?

possibly find him a decent counselor and pay for it? tough situation.

They have guns in the house AND he is threatening suicide? Call the police and ask them if there is someone who has expertise in this situation, i.e. dealing with an emotionally unstable person. This is an emergency situation, IMO. If you are at all unsure, double check with a suicide hotline. I know that IRL such people let you down, but you have to at least give it your best shot.

^^^^

Get the guns out of the house. Just take them if you have to.

(family lives 1,100 miles north of here)

National suicide prevention lifeline: 1-800-273-TALK (8255) (I'm assuming you're in the U.S., but maybe you're not). You can call them even if it is for another person. They may be able to offer local help or at least put you in touch with some other resources. Guns in the house increase suicide risks greatly which I'm sure you are probably aware of. Is there any other family/friends local to them who could help get the guns out? I would also suggest trying to locate free or low-cost mental health clinics in your brother's area. If money really is the barrier (it sounds like it's an excuse in this case), removing it could help.

I'm so sorry you (and your brother are in this situation). Good luck getting help.

(and your brother) are in this situation.

You could also try contacting the local Child Protective Services office - although your brother isn't a "child" at 16, he is still of an age that the CPS (or equivalent) would have jurisdiction over.

Keep listening to him and being there when he wants or needs to talk: that's the best thing you can do for him. I know you say you wish there was more, but fuck, dude: that's so much you're doing already right there.

When you say he's suicidal: what's he actually said? From the (minimal) training I've had in these things, I understand it's best to deal with it as directly as possible: "OK, so are you seriously thinking about suicide?" And if he says yes, he is -- which it sounds like he will - then follow up with: "So do you have a plan?" Then: "Can you tell me what that plan is?" This can help in two ways: not only in terms of giving you a better understanding of what he's feeling and what kind of state he's in, but also in terms of your brother articulating and -- hopefully -- rationalising his feelings. The key thing to remember is: talking openly about suicide isn't going to "give him ideas" or "put it in his head" or anything.

But yes, I'd say the next thing is that he should talk to a professional about how he's feeling. I don't really know much about what services there are in the US, but it sounds like the number wmlynch links to is excellent and you're probably best giving them a call yourself, and/or encouraging your brother to do so. Is there anyone else he might be able to talk to -- any other adult figure in the area whom he looks up to and who might be able to help? What about his/the family doctor?

I really don't want to pass judgment on your parents but dismissing this as "attention-seeking" is at best unhelpful and at worse reckless. As a Brit, the idea of having guns in the house is totally beyond my frame of reference, and I don't really have any helpful advice there because to me it's as unimaginable as saying: "Yeh, we've got a hungry tiger that lives in the bedroom cupboard" ... but, y'know, cultural differences and that :)

Hope this is of some help. Ultimately, though, what you're doing is more important than anything else: you're listening to him.

Thx everyone. I think I'll have him call a hotline, or recommend he does – they'd be better able to connect him w/resources in his town than I wld, of course. And then if he tells me he's thinking about it

I think we've both gotten the same scant bit of training, grimly, and I try to be as open w/him about it as possible and never pussyfooting w/language or intent, which is why I think he's willing to talk to me (among other reasons). It's just so hard to try and stay calm and open, let alone come up with any solutions or ideas like you did.

And yes, my parents are being real short-minded assfucks. They're impossible to handle & they make no sense. I hope for everyone else's sake they never have to regret their actions, but I am consistently baffled by how fucking idiotic they are with their kids' mental & physical health.

And then if he tells me he's thinking about it call the ER in his town to come get him.

worried

that im a bad person, that my friends dont love me, that i cant be understood, that im crazy.

Doubtful all four.

1. bad people don't usually worry about being bad people. You're probably obsessing over some mistakes?

2. if things with your friends have been different lately, maybe they are exasperated and don't know what to do about you, I mean, if you've been extremely depressed?

But that doesn't mean they don't love you, those who do.

Or have or did before or whatever.

3. You definitely can be understood.

none of those things change by killing yourself.

4. You maybe need therapeutic help or antidepressants or something else, but crazy? I mean, even if you were crazy, crazy is manageable these days.

Yeah, and what he said.

And you can't give in to the illogic of depression. It's a chemical inertia that you have to fight.

Every time I see your screen name it's so evocative to me.

if you're posting here, then almost by definition:

you're a good person
we love you
nabisco (among others) understands you
you are less crazy than . . . many of us

i like pumpkins

xpost. exactly! if you wrote it all down on a piece of paper and set it aside, that would be bad. Posting here doesn't lessen the severity of your worries, but it means you want a reply. And that's good. You come here, you will be heard, and we will listen. Overwhelming worries can be scary...but they are far better out here amongst all of us than in there with just you to face them!

pumpkin pie = awesomeness of the highest order.

with so many friends, and having always being there for them, i dont know how i ended up with no one to talk to. it happened so gradually

having always ben

been!

So who are you talking to now?

talk to us! as we've established, you are among people who like pumpkins VERY much.

one good friend and a bunch of internet ppl xpost

its hard to explain anything without just sounding like a retarded emo

Well, ok, I'm relieved to hear that.

<=====retarded emo usually

i mean its not calling mobile crisis time or anything like that

i did make a change to my life insurance policy but i think i was just feeling grim that day, i wasnt actually contemplating suicide or making a plan. just thinking baout death and dying.

everyone who hasn't been a retarded emo please step forward.

[looks around]

see? you're among friends. Seriously. and thinking baout death and dying can be worth offloading. turns your good thoughts to bad, like a rotten banana in the fruit bowl. you can pour it on. no-one's gonna laugh or point.

xpost Yeah, but when I was in a hole this summer a few times, that I wasn't considering suicide was not a consolation. It was just terrible terrible terrible. And not having, you know, the right people to talk to was a bitch. You don't want to talk to just anyone. And not wanting to put people out with what you think of as your bullshit, your drama.

i feel a little better today. thanks.

you are less crazy than . . . many of us

hear hear!

glad you're feeling better

agreed! excellent news!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2266/2185484051_496d695120.jpg

man that pumpkin is real dope

Just k-kill me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1xpgf7VwPM

with so many friends, and having always being there for them, i dont know how i ended up with no one to talk to. it happened so gradually

Then it's time to gradually make amends. You take little baby steps: go out, call a friend. An old friend. Tell him/her you want to have a drink. I know that extreme depression isn't "erased" that way, but little bits can help. Also, get a therapist, get anti-depressants as a way to kick your body into a happy state.

Also: ILX. We're always here.

thanks for being nice back in sept u guys

So how are you feeling? I hope much better. Don't fear setbacks!

feeling much better. a lot of stress is off of me now.

christ- its been a long whiel for this thread. stress is for the birds

when first I posted on this thread we were chasing osama bin laden out of the chic hills of afghannystan

Glad you're feeling better...you can remember that in the future, too, if you're ever feeling shit again: that those feelings don't last forever. That is my main pulling-through-things strategy/

this is so awesome:

if you're posting here, then almost by definition:

you're a good person
we love you
nabisco (among others) understands you
you are less crazy than . . . many of us

― mookieproof, Saturday, September 26, 2009 2:58 AM

It is indeed awesome. Y'know, fuck people saying internet forums are "fake" cause you don't have real contact. If it can help you, give you comfort, then why the fuck not use a forum as a way to get out of the black hole. Anything to get away from the misery is A OKAY in my fucking book. Also, HUGGELZ to you all. You're great people.

I'm not so sure. Speaking as someone who posted a pathetic cry for help a few years ago which had absolutely fuck all personal response or reassurance (and got dragged up for shits and gigglez on the noize board or 77 or somewhere into the bargain), it really didn't help at all. If you catch the board on a quiet day, or a day when everyone's too busy posting lolcatz to read a personal thread, it can be another kick that you really don't need.

I mean, by all means, post away. It works for a lot of people. But it can have the completely opposite of giving you comfort. If you're already dangerously down, an addtional bout of "oh fuck, even people who don't KNOW me can't even be arsed to talk me down here" really doesn't help.

Of course, Ailsa. I am also sorry that I didn't catch the cry for help. I always do try to answer. What I meant was: that if you do find response, why not? Any way to get out of a black hole is good for me. The best option is of course finding someone in your immediate circle to help, but some people are really alone, y'know.

Oh yes, I understand that. But I'm just not convinced that ILX is always the cuddlestein answer (though obv it is a lot of the time, and one bad experience doesn't detract from all the good ones). It's a really bad time to find out firsthand that it's not always filled with instant goodness and answers and support.

Yes, sometimes ILX makes me really, really mad, too...it's a 'well-rounded' place in re emotional experiences.

sort of like: life

glad to see that ilxors helped pumpkin

sort of like: life

indeed! except I get mad at ILX way, way, way less often than I do at life in general.

Ailsa, that's terrible! ILX fail. >:-(

sort of like: life

Sort of, but not really. ILX is great, but I'm not convinced it's a good place for people who are making a "desperate cry for help," notwithstanding the many smart, sympathetic posters here.

And that's life too in a way: not a place to find help. People have muffled ears when it comes to other people's cries.

*sigh*

you ok E?

no

What's up?

VERY long story. best not to go into it here.

yo man don't kill yourself ok? let me just say that straight. do not kill yourself. as sure as we are both posting on this board & have been for a long time, together in a distant sense, you will soon say "I am super-stoked I did not kill myself on 5/20/10, when I felt so fuckin bad I was sure I wanted to die." OK? Because I spent most of 2009 really really actively wanting to die. And now I am stoked to be alive. As I was you now are. Are I now am you will be in less time than you think. I think I speak on behalf of the board when I say we're all here to listen if you need an ear but the main thing is do whatever you gotta do to hold on, OK? your fellow ilx poster of, what, like a decade now, uaaIhl

hey, what j0hn said. please.

thanks ... for real.

i should take this offline.

so this is j0hn d speaking?!?

thirding aerosmith's post. ppl are here, dude

yeah

because people copy and paste my posts to quote elsewhere I now post under variants of a name & hope that people who've known me a while can address me by my preferred name, aerosmith, and refer to me that way, in perpetuity

however you can call me Rex Reed if it gives you lols and makes you feel better dude

apologies for using your other screen name. i didn't realize that was your motivation for the change.

referring to you as Steven Tyler as kosher move, y/n? ;-)

it's OK -- i know j0hn D, so i feel a bit more comfortable w/ a name i recognize.

:-)

it's ok y'all anything that might distract eisbaer from his pain for a minute is cool by me - I mean seriously, what is the likelihood that a very, very high % of posters on a generally music-oriented board don't know what it feels like to wanna take arms against a sea of troubles, etc? we have all been there. a bunch of times. all in our own ways, for our own reasons, and they all seemed insurmountable at the time. and if we're still here then we can say that some perspective taught us that on balance it was best to stay alive. that it was "worth it," even though, y'know, fuck pain. but distract yourself, man. keep your mind free from the source of the pain until you see some light. you can do it. you will be glad you did.

i know, and that's what everyone keeps saying. and i am trying. but i feel like i'm stuck w/ a tar baby.

i just don't see a good or easy way out of the jam that i am in, even if i manage to survive. and i don't know if i want to survive, anyway.

1) It's a cliche, but it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Mike may be being somewhat facetious, but what he says is true. Even if you feel like you are trapped in an unworkable situation, you have not tried every option. Quit your job, leave your home, there are a thousand things you can change. Even if the worst thing you can possibly imagine happens to you (and trust me, I've been there) it's still less final than being dead. Sure, no matter where you go, you will still be yourself, and the same problems may resurface, and you can't change your life until you've changed yourself, but fuck. Wouldn't it be better to change yourself, even temporarily, rather than end yourself forever?

months I spent feeling like that in '09: March - December

now I'm not just "better," I'm runnin' shit

i GOT into this jam by trying to be "runnin' shit"

I mean, real talk: you are experiencing a psychiatric emergency. you need to call somebody who's better qualified than anybody here to help you find a perspective that helps you. I'm not saying "get off this thread," this thread is also gonna help I'd guess, but your latter part - "i don't know if i want to survive, anyway" - that's the part a pro can really get you some clarity on. because you do. you just can't see that you do, because the pain is clouding your vision.

because you do. you just can't see that you do, because the pain is clouding your vision.

i know. and i agree. though i'm also still here because i'm a pussy who hates pain and messes.

but really, it's so hard.

i also wish that trife were still here to gimme shit for using a term like "tar baby."

i know i'll survive. but it's still hell.

what aeroJD said, Eisbaer -- talk to a pro, and we need you.

E, do you have people who are there for you in real life supporting you through this?

who doesn't hate pain? but it's a temporary condition. really, you gotta step back a little. that is what tv & the internet & comic books & small around-the-house tasks are for. your pain, even at its greatest, will subsist, and clarity will return, and you'll say, whoa fuck, I was really down there in the fucking pit, sure am glad I got the fuck out of there.

I mean seriously dude there can't be anybody here who hasn't been exactly where you're at, for different reasons/via different routes but at the same spot. look to their/our examples and know: you climb up through whatever means, and you live to tell your pain that you were stronger than it was.

E, do you have people who are there for you in real life supporting you through this?

yeah. but i am driving them to their wits' end right now. plus only one have i told at any length about what i am contemplating (b/c he tried to do it to himself so he knows what it's like).

I, for one, would hate to lose you having never met you. Hang in there.

Please don't worry about your peoples' wits right now. If anything, think of it as a wits loan.

God bless you, suzy.

just pray for me, if you do that. that's all i ask now.

Keeping you in my thoughts, sir. Keep all that's been said upthread to heart.

that means a lot to me right now, Ned.

Thinking of you dude, and looking forward to the day when all of this is over for you and the pain is gone.

I need you, Eisebaer. Never having met you is small potatoes compared to the lasting daily pleasure you and so many others here provide. I got you.

I, for one, would hate to lose you having never met you. Hang in there.

I second this.

this is a stupid question maybe but do you play video games & do you have a system at home? that shit can eat up some hours between feeling shitty and feeling less shitty

I guess some people go into a self-loathing thing about "wasting time" after a video game marathon but fuckin' A, it's not wasting time if it makes you feel better imo

Thirded. You're one of the people I want to meet at World FAP.
xpost

I, for one, would hate to lose you having never met you. Hang in there.

I second this.

― ô_o (Nicole), Friday, May 21, 2010 10:34 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

this, and I know this may come off as facetious or w/e, but you are one of the few people on this board who knows what it's like to live in new jersey, also as someone who is considering law school & law in general, I always put my antennas on full blast when I come across your byline on law school threads because you OTM it up

law and NJ are both jealous mistresses.

I think you've found your solution

listen to the Misfits, then sue somebody

(just trying to bring some lol, I am goin to bed now, expect to see you here tomorrow dude)

^^ otm, put on hybrid moments and just try not to smile & jump around, I dare you

seriously, i am really touched by what everyone here is saying. i was reluctant to share all this -- i haven't been here much for the past few years, i haven't always been the nicest person here and i wondered how much anyone here ever thinks about anything i've ever said here (for good or ill). that i am even posting here now shows that i really don't want to leave -- either ILX or life -- for good.

good night and God bless, aeroJD. :-)

very very glad
we strangers, we care, seriously

take care, Eisbaer.

(a) i haven't always been the nicest person here and (b) i wondered how much anyone here ever thinks about anything i've ever said here (for good or ill)

divided this for clarity. as to (a), you're one of the nicest and most thoughtful posters on ilx, i think (i really can't recall you ever being mean/impolite, tbh). as to (b) i look forward to reading your posts.

^

What everyone else has already said, I say that too. The videogame thing is a very good idea. Maybe complete distraction is what you need to get you through the night and out of this space right now. Hang in there man. Please.

thanks, Daniel. since you're a fellow lawyer, you'd understand some of the problems i am facing right now (don't worry -- it's nothing that would get me disbarred or probably even sanctioned, and i say that with 1,000% honesty).

^^ otm, put on hybrid moments and just try not to smile & jump around, I dare you

― Face Book (dyao), Friday, 21 May 2010 03:45 (4 minutes ago)

hahahahahaha oh fuck

I saw a band tonight (A Sunny Day In Glasgow) and they played this one song that was ten times better than their already-pretty-good power-gaze stuff

and I asked one of the singers what it was afterwards and she said it was Hybrid Moments by The Misfits

so yeah. do this. do this please.

Also a friend of mine recently introduced me to a poppy Krautrock track called Eisbaer and it was great! I thought 'there's an ILX poster called this'

basically my prognosis is

that there are too many coincidences for you to kill yourself.

it would flout the power of the coincidence and be an act of bad energy in the universe

so, like, exist. just exist and may the rest realign. :)

NJ... i'm sorry man

Hang in there man, like others have said it's only temporary. Posting here was your first step towards feeling better.

See? Even the lurkers want you alive!

thanks, Daniel. since you're a fellow lawyer, you'd understand some of the problems i am facing right now (don't worry -- it's nothing that would get me disbarred or probably even sanctioned, and i say that with 1,000% honesty).

i understand. i felt so low for work-related reasons one night about 10 days ago, i was . . . well, i was in a bad place.

hang in there, E.

word of advice (and you may never be in this spot): don't EVER take a pro se on as a client. fuck all the high-minded talk you may here from legal gasbags -- those people are pro se for a reason, and trust me the reason ain't good. let them rot in the cesspool of their own stupidity/cheapness/nastiness/whatever it is that made them go pro se in the first place -- they don't deserve any better.

oh i know all about pro se litigants.

just joining the chorus here at this point (which is kind of a great chorus to be in tbh) but hey, i am not a praying dude, but im thinking about you and hoping things get better. no matter what, the waiting game for better times sucks when its happening, but shit its a game worth playing you know? sorry that you are hurting, but recognizing that hurt helps put a fence around it and understand it, so maybe look at this as a time to do that, and in time you will be looking at it from outside the pen and wondering why it looked so big when you were in there with it. take care of yourself.

anyway, back in the day (like 2003/early 2004 or so) this place WAS my diversion. i was going through some tough/bad times then too -- in some ways less severe than now, in some ways more so -- and ILX helped me through it in so many ways. (that i was going through those bad times was one of the reasons why i never showed up to any of the NYC FAPs that were going on @ that time, if anyone still cares). i got through it then, and in fact those days strengthened my resolve to carry on from then up till now (roughly when i stopped posting here as often as i used to).

i don't know if i will be here as much now as i was then. but maybe i will be, and y'all will know whty.

Eisebaer! good grief what happened?! likewise - of course i'm thinking of you.

i mean, whatever is happening now it's really pretty likely that in a bit of time you'll see it from an entirely different perspective, though it's difficult not to get caught up completely in something @ present that isn't going well at all..

Late to thread, but can I just...please believe what's been said upthread. Everything that's been said, man that is all you...thats you being reflected back to you...these people are not better off without you. Embrace the suck, ride it out, conquer it... and hang. Please. It would mean a lot to this longtime lurker :)

thanx, daria. i know what you're saying is very true -- b/c what you have described is just what has happened after other low points in my life. but damn if it isn't tough when you're in the middle of it.

i think i can get through what i am going through right now, and i try to discipline myself these days to not wallow in my sorrows. i've gotten lots of good advice -- some here, some from IRL friends and families and colleagues. but it's still going to be rough as far as i can see it.

and if i haven't given some of you a shout-out, it's not b/c i am ignoring you. i am truly appreciative of all of the kind thoughts.

right on. and eisbaer, i've always thought you were in fact one of the smartest and most interesting people on ilx. are you going to check back in? what's going on?

xpost
it's been my experience more and more in real life that people simply don't have any idea how to deal with others who are feeling down, particularly if there's no simple reason that's easily explained. like they don't have any clue as to what to say, no idea at all, and just check out. that's how it is. it's like more and more people in this society just aren't trained for it, so they change the subject or walk away. they don't mean it badly, they just don't know how to act..

i think you are otm. sometimes it's hard not to take that personally

funny (and awesome) that we can be more helpful than irl people

hi eisbaer and i don't know you but i know what it feels like to want it over, and i only want you to ride it out. i mean i'm sorry, it's not my business, but you're cool and the world should not be without you. not that it's your problem, but there's nothing worse than watching someone you love let go forever, and i know there are people who love you. thing is, no matter how much shit seems to suck, everything passes, even the stuff that never seems to pass. i don't know how to say it right, but i am glad every day that i didn't do what i used to think i had to do. seriously, what aerosmith said: talk to someone, cuz if you're really thinking about it, you're not in any position to make major decisions.

I simply can't offer a solution to your problem, but do know that most (if not all) do not like to see you unhappy and certainly not dead. Realize that everything can and does pass, also this dark period. Thing is, you have to make that choice (by seeking professional help). I like to see it as being a dark room. You just have to search for the door and open it to the light. For the longest period I thought my depression was something past present and future. Now I realize it isn't *if* I choose is not to be. I have also accepted that, well, I will have slumps now and again. (Like right fucking now. But that's beside the fucking point.)

E, dude, we love you

Just wanted to join the chorus of voices here, I hope/wish/want you to survive this, Tad. Of course we're nothing more than "message board acquaintances", but I've definitely enjoyed interacting with you throughout the years, and I sincerely hope your pain and distress will ease with time. Those things are never more than temporary. Like JJJusten, I'm not a praying man nor a believer, but from my atheist point of view this one life we got is just far too precious to waste. All the potential cool things in your future will always outweigh the bad things going on at the moment.

Nothing to add other than that J0hn D's absolutely right. Hang on in there, almost everyone's been in the place you're in now and it can seem impossible to get out of and it seems easier for you and your friends and family to leave, but trust me it is worth the effort to fight against it and pull through this. Love and respect to you.

take care, dude, lawyerin is hard no doubt. thinkin good thoughts~

I simply can't offer a solution to your problem, but do know that most (if not all) do not like to see you unhappy and certainly not dead. Realize that everything can and does pass, also this dark period. Thing is, you have to make that choice (by seeking professional help). I like to see it as being a dark room. You just have to search for the door and open it to the light. For the longest period I thought my depression was something past present and future. Now I realize it isn't *if* I choose is not to be. I have also accepted that, well, I will have slumps now and again. (Like right fucking now. But that's beside the fucking point.)

E, dude, we love you

― Nathalie (stevienixed), Friday, May 21, 2010 8:16 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

^ this

The only problem an eisbaer should have is that he's hungry. When an eisbaer is hungry, he uses his keen sense of smell to locate a seal's breathing hole. Then he waits until the seal comes up for air. The eisbaer then bites the seal's head, killing it. This is how the eisbaer solves his problems in one of the world's least hospitable environments. You are an eisbaer. Your problem is just a pesky seal. Bite its fucking head off. Stay cool.

That is, presuming that Eisbaer means polar bear and is not some kind of delicious frozen treat.

for those who posted and are worried: i made it through the night. i'm OK. taking it day-by-day.

Glad to know. I pretty much just lurk, but I care, and I care about all of you.

just read thread, glad to see you at the end of it. echo all of the above posts.

just read thread, glad to see you at the end of it

his tether?

Posting here was your first step towards feeling better.

^^^^^ Hidden bit of OTMFM from adamj there.

I'm not qualified (and way too introverted) at all to talk about Things In Real Life that kick out the ladder from under you, but I am expert in distraction. Someone bring the videogames, I'm bringing the beer and BBQ - rendezvous at Eisbaer's place.

WORLDFAP

hang in there, pardner!

that i was going through those bad times was one of the reasons why i never showed up to any of the NYC FAPs that were going on @ that time, if anyone still cares

well i did wonder, it's true. s'ok though.

Can I join in but no beers nor videogames, just some knitting. I'll be quiet.

for those who posted and are worried: i made it through the night. i'm OK. taking it day-by-day.

I woke up & went straight to the laptop to check! Glad you are feeling better this morning

I also think it's very important to realize there will be setbacks. But glad to hear you're hanging there. Day by day is a good motto. <3

i've been pretty vague about just what it is that's eating me. that's because i don't want to get into too much personal information here, so i know that it makes it impossible for folks to give me more specific advise (if any such advise even exists for my troubles right now). a large part of it is financial -- i have enough to pay my way right now, but i am cutting that much closer than i'd like and our current economic mess makes it that much more difficult to do anything.

the best way i can describe my current mental state, as i said upthread, is that i feel like i'm wrestling w/ a tar baby. the more i struggle to try to change things, the more stuck i become. a lot of things out of my hands (the economy, the job market) are big factors in why i feel so stuck.

It's only money, your life is more important than that, suiceisbaer!

Money suuuuuuuuucks. : ( I feel you, dude.

But, I gotta add: it is only money. People survive not having it. People lose all of it and the rugs out from under their feet. But many of those people do manage to get back on their feet, eventually.

E, I went through last Christmas week with $25 to my name, so I can understand what you're going through. I feel for you.

I'm glad you're still here. Please don't leave.

christine: i am nowhere nearly that broke (if i was, i'd REALLY be a basketcase now). but i am scared shitless about getting to that point.

Temporary poverty? It totally sucks, but it's nothing to be THAT scared of -- you'll hate it, but you'll survive. Or have I misunderstood the circs?

laurel: oh, i understand temporary poverty ALL TOO WELL. it's something that i DO NOT WANT to return to.

Absolutely! Definitely no one wants this for themselves, and we don't want it for you either!! But it's no reason to erase all the options for your future?

eisbaer, you have always seemed like a good lad, so hang in there man!

wow, I am just seeing all of this for the first time now

I have a little mental "YAY" flag that goes off whenever I stumble across one of your posts because you aren't around as much as you used to be. I echo what everyone else said; you'd be missed greatly and please do what you need to do to put yourself in a better place. You're one of us.

I'm glad you're still here. Please don't leave.

i don't think I can really put it any better than that.

Tad I sent you a message, you are awesome. KOALA TACOS DUDE. DUUUUDE.

God bless everyone here. I'll check in periodically, just so you know that i AM still here. but i don't want to wallow in my miseries, so other than that i'll not post a lot.

I just want to high five you for traversing the night, man. When things get as tough as it sounds like they are for you right now, I try to scale the whole game back and think: "my job today is to make it to tomorrow. Later I will be able to aim higher than that, but today my purpose is tomorrow morning." And do whatever works to hit that modest mark.

You're gonna make it.

for those who posted and are worried: i made it through the night. i'm OK. taking it day-by-day.

I didn't read this thread 'til today, but I was so relieved to read this! Eisbaer, I am rooting for you in my heart & soul. Day by day is hard when the days are long & shitty, but it's a great way to look at things. I am so glad you reached out to ppl on ILX and IRL – keep doing that whenever you need. I'm here for you & so is everyone else, as you can tell. I hope things pick up for you soon.

something (good) that i did today that i don't normally do. i had to go to Newark real quick this afternoon (not for anything shady or dangerous LOL) -- on the way back, i stepped off of the PATH train a station early at the Pavonia stop in Jersey City instead of going straight home to Hoboken. i strolled along the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway (which took me to Hoboken by foot). besides getting me some exercise, i got a lovely view of the Manhattan skyline. nothing revolutionary, but i enjoyed it and it made me feel good.

Walking can be almost miraculous at times in that way.

good!

awesome dude

Eisbaer, I haven't read most of the posts above, but I gave similar advice in a divorce-depression thread elsewhere: do you play music at all? When I was as depressed as I've ever been in life, I made a goal to learn some songs well enough that I could play them at open stages, and it seriously changed my life. I met new friends, had new daily and weekly goals, and focused on one of life's greatest pleasures: music.

Also, mega "yes" on taking that walking and being observant of something as simple as the beauty of a skyline. Music and exercise definitely helped me; hope they can do the same for you.

Walking really helps - I think we don't realize how much inactivity or being desk-bound affects us until it's already misery time. Endorphins, yay...

there's little i can add beyond affirming the good sense of others and noting that i have appreciated your posts here even from a while back when i didn't post. despair may be all you can see now but that perspective is a partial and temporary one. things will change and one day you will be so fucking glad that you thought better of it.

eisbaer i echo what everyone else has said.

the video games suggestion is actually really good, i managed to get thru a shitty breakup like that, it didn't feel noble but it worked!

also... are you a bicycle person? cuz getting a bike and riding around in beautiful spring weather... man... nothing really makes me feel better than that.

Eisbaer - Just adding my best wishes. ILM 2002-2004 (-ish?) would have been a poorer place w/out you. Hope you come out of this and post again in a happier mindset.

Walking really helps - I think we don't realize how much inactivity or being desk-bound affects us until it's already misery time. Endorphins, yay...

This. I make a point of walking when I'm in a foul mood, sometimes with no destination. I take my camera and take pictures of flowers and shit. Especially this time of year, the sunshine is surprisingly nourishing.

I understand that a foul mood is a lot different than depression. Even so.

Eisbaer: do you have any pets? If not, they help, too. Even fish help a little. But fish are a very high investment for a very low return.

Kenan: no, i don't have any pets. my apartment is small, so i'd really only have room for a small dog, a cat, or a goldfish.

and i am OK today.

good to hear!

thanx ksh :-)

again, and i hope no-one is getting sick of my saying this -- but i am truly touched by all of the support i've gotten from people here. thank you all so much, from the very bottom of my heart.

I'm really glad to hear you're OK today!

i don't know how things will turn out, Abbott. and i know that there are going to be some bad days ahead. but at least right now, i'm fine. and that's good enough for right now.

I'm rooting for you.

you're going to be all right, E.

You live in Hoboken? Do you ever come to Tunes?

We're all rooting for you.

You live in Hoboken? Do you ever come to Tunes?

not often, but i have been there yes.

it's rainy here today. which is never good for my mood in general -- but at least i know that.

I haven't been outside. It just looks cloudy- was it raining earlier?

I live in Hoboken too, just to be clear. Between first and second on Washington.

it isn't raining right now. i think that it did last night/early morning.

I'm going on a bike ride before it rains today. Reports say it'll rain around 5. Hoboken is a great place for a bike ride along the water.

riding yer bike along the streets/sidewalks in Hoboken is taking yer life in yer hands IMHO (not that it stops folks from doing that) -- but yeah, along the waterfront (Sinatra Park et. al.) it is a great thing to do.

Well we wouldn't want to do that ;)

being thrown over a bike's handlebars and having my face become one with either the street or the side of a building has NEVER been a suicide method that i've ever considered even during my darkest moments!

:-)

riding yer bike along the streets/sidewalks in Hoboken is taking yer life in yer hands IMHO (not that it stops folks from doing that) -- but yeah, along the waterfront (Sinatra Park et. al.) it is a great thing to do.

I just did this on streetview, and it looks ace.

Coming to this thread late, but I definitely echo all of the positive sentiments coming from others. You've always been a top notch poster on this board and I'm sure that it's only a taste of what you offer to the IRL. The world has a shortage of good dudes like you so take those nice spring bike rides and get through this however you've got to, because there's plenty of great times ahead. Though it's hard to see it sometimes, there's a lot of people who love you out there and a lot more love you have yet to receive (and give for that matter!)

this was not a good day :-(

i could certainly use some tips on how to cope -- e-mail me privately please?!?

webmailed you

When its really nice out here, walk up to Stevens, and go up next to the President's house just past the dorm that is next to the tennis courts. Usually, there are a few wooden chairs on the hill under some trees in the side yard that have a beautiful view of Manhattan. It is a great place to sit and unwind. An oasis of grass and trees that feels more like a yard in a quiet vacation home (a healthy escape) than a park does, with the best view of the Hudson anywhere.

thanx Abbott and Evan :-)

Above all else if possible, don't be alone. xx

Trayce: can you log onto g-chat? :-)

Eisbaer, I don't really have any tips, but I'm glad you keep popping up on this thread to check in: it is always nice to see you!

I am going to go for a bike ride this afternoon, partly in honour of this thread, and mostly because, you know, it makes me happy. (in fact, when I was really in a bad way, I used to feel guilty about the happiness I felt when I was out on my bike, like it was proof that i wasn't sad 'enough' and just being a drama queen and should shut up and suck it up: if you can avoid this kind of train of thought, I recommend you do so, because, dude, why shouldn't we grab on to all the happiness we can get with both hands).

Tad: god sorry Ive had a bit of a stressy evening of my own :( I'll see if i can in a bit.

xpost Oh yes, the guilt. Been there, still am there in fact and sadly not past it.

Work on an exit plan from the law, not from life. Seriously.

you may be right, Three Word.

i am OK but it's still rough.

i'm not much of a cheerleader type, but just want to say that lots of people are thinking of you.

i know -- and that helps.

mornings are the toughest time for me, for whatever reason.

fear of paperboys?

no, it "brings me back to this awful place" (to quote that Clash song).

i just like having someone to talk to -- i know that's not always practical, that people work etc. but it is what's been getting me through this.

is there something you can occupy yourself with, like maybe reading a book you really like! or listening to your favorite record that makes you feel better, until more people wake up? just an idea, good sir!

"until more people wake up" being "until more of the ppl you know irl wake up"

(not that ilxors aren't here, obviously, but ilxors aren't a replacement for irl ppl imo)

i try to keep busy, and yes i listen to music.

the day all this gets better for you, i think there should be an ilx party to celebrate. World FAP! :-)

i am looking forward to that day ... seriously now.

it will come, dude, and it will be an awesome, awesome day

Indeed. Check your mail, E.

just got it, Ned -- thank you. will respond shortly :-)

i just want to share that late this afternoon, i got some good news about something that had been bugging me a lot. i can't go into it here, but it will relieve some of the financial pressure that i am under. as always, tomorrow is not promised to us and who knows what the future will bring. but for now, i am happy for this bit of good news.

Glad to hear it! Now all you need is the pro se client to suddenly decide to plead guilty and you're set.

srsly, don't mean to make light (except as far as it's helpful), glad you're getting some good news.

haha WmC. i don't want to jinx myself, so i'm going to decline to comment about the pro se client.

good stuff Eisbaer!

Yay E!

(as a sidenote, because of this thread I now know what pro se means. Sort of.)

Hey, that's a big relief, Eisbaer! I'm happy to hear good news came your way.

I'm glad to hear about it.

i'm feeling OK today. i expect that there will be some stress today, but i hope that i can cope with it -- intelligently and rationally.

tbh i strive to deal with stress in the most dumb and irrational ways, it's working p well and i recommend it.

just so everyone knows, and i know that i've said this a lot over the past week. i am so deeply appreciative of the outpouring of support that i have received from folks here. i have decided to not wallow (too much anyway) in my troubles, so unless i am *REALLY* about ready to pull the trigger i'll keep my postings on this thread to a bare minimum. it's going to be very tough, i don't know what lies ahead for me and frankly it scares the shit out of me for a number of reasons. i may stumble and things may not work as quickly as i'd like. but i want to move forward and put this bad shit behind me.

i understand that i may be pushing some folks to the ends of their tethers myself now -- please know that i don't want to do that. part of my way of coping is talking -- or writing about it here and elsewhere. all i ask is that folks let me know if i ever overstep my bounds -- the last thing i need right now is to piss off anyone whose support i may need at some point.

God bless you all.

so unless i am *REALLY* about ready to pull the trigger i'll keep my postings on this thread to a bare minimum.

sban u for this. why let it be a last measure thing, if it helps?

as i said, darragh, i don't want to wear out my welcome. and i want to get better, not end it all. that's all i meant.

:) i didn't really suggest ban you, just fyi

understand that i may be pushing some folks to the ends of their tethers myself now

That's common in depressed people who are talking about their problems, and it's wrong. The people who are bored or irritated with you can avoid this thread, so post here as much as you want. We'll listen to you.

hi Tad! hope it keeps getting better.

i should come here more often too i guess, because it gets pretty lonely where i'm living now. i've totally lost track of all the new usernames though. is there still a hidden board? (i've been gone a good while)

thanks Kim -- it's great to see you here again! it has been a long time (in chickenbear years especially). and it is hard to keep track of the new usernames and people around here these days.

one thing that's kept me going has been talking (here and elsewhere). my AIM tag is TadEisbaer, so anyone who wants to can text me.

And so, I go forward. I don't know where it will all end up, and I am still more than a little frightened. But I am determined to do what I can to lick this thing, following all good advice provided by people and determined to not give in to any bad thoughts that I may have. I write this here because I don't know where else to put it on ILX, and because I know that it isn't over. I've said this all a zillion times to everyone here (and offline), but you have been such a source of strength and comfort right now. I can never really repay any of you for your support and good will, but I hope that a recovery will be at least a down payment.

Survival is the best revenge, and the best repayment -- you don't save someone's life so they can be grateful to you, you do it so that they have a LIFE to live. Every day that the sun comes up and they're still here is worth the whole debt.

oh dude, I hadn't checked my email; sorry!

It's OK, Dan. No worries :-)

i'm rooting for you, tad. you're going to be fine.

cosign Daniel's post

thanks for the votes of confidence, Daniel and ksh. it may be a bumpy ride, but i want to make it.

I can't see you not making it, really.

thanks Abbott!

i am writing here to let everyone know that i am feeling so much better now than i felt several weeks ago. i really hope that i am not jinxing myself by posting this, but right now things appear to be going in a much better direction for me. i have no idea how everything will play out ultimately, but then again that's life in general isn't it? i know that i will have some bad days, quite likely in the very near future, but at least for now there's enough positivity that i am at least a bit more optimistic than i was in the not-so-distant future.

from the very bottom of my heart, i would like to thank everyone who reached out to me (here and privately) over the past few weeks. i deeply appreciate that you have taken time out of your busy lives to help me out when i needed it most, and it has given me strength these days. as i have said over and over again, i really hope that i am in a position to return the favor should it ever come to that for everyone who's helped me during these trying times.

:)

:) glad to hear it

awesome, Eisbaer! glad to hear it & good on you for being so strong :-D

That's really, really great to hear Eisbaer. :)

get some ice cream, you earned it tbh

^w/ sprinkles

ben & jerry's is the way to go imo

nothing can remind you how awesome life is better than ice cream

Glad to see good tidings, Eisbaer -- your kung fu is strong.

I'm glad things are getting better for you.

That's sooooo great to hear Eis!

Im so pleased for you Tad <3

Right on, buddy!

good shit, man

What they all said.

\m/TAD\m/

Awesomest thread revive. Hail eisbaer.

rawk dude!

That's very nice to hear, keep on truckin' Tad!

Quite wonderful to hear!

Things have been getting much worse lately and I don't know how I'm going to be able to handle it. None of the stupid bullshit I've kept myself distracted with for years is working anymore and every time I try explaining things to a therapist or my family I get either "cheer up, you're doing fine" or another prescription for antidepressants that don't do anything except make me gain weight and feel even shittier about how badly I've fucked up myself and my life.

Oh man, TT, that is really shitty. I wish I had some solid advice to offer you, but I don't really. You are free to webmail me, though, if you need a sympathetic stranger to vent to.

I think a lot of us have been there and done that, as can be evidenced all over this, and other, threads. The fact that we're all still here shows that there is a way through this, even if you can't see what it is right now.

Do you have anywhere you can bike or get outside and walk around? When I got into full-on depressive and anxious states, I learned the hard way that changing your physiology had great effects at improving your psychology, too

"None of the stupid bullshit I've kept myself distracted with for years is working anymore"

theres always other endless amount of distracting stuff to think and do in the world (and thank god for that).

sorry TT. feel ya on the uselessness of trying to explain it to family and friends

cheers on TRYING to explain it to family and friends. i think that shows a lot of courage that most people don't have.

^definitely

i am sorry to hear that, TT. and i know that, after a while, all of the "cheer up you're fine" or "you're going to be fine" talk seems pointless. (dunno about prescription drugs, though -- i have a deadly fear of them). at the risk of adding more pointless talk on top of what you've already gotten, keep in mind that those saying these things mean well -- and may not have anything more helpful than that to tell you. really, best thing (as i'm finding out) is to find people who DO have something more useful and less generic ... and their schedules permitting, talk to them however you can.

today was NOT a good day for me, FWIW and to say the very least. won't get into reasons here (an ILXor knows the reasons) ... but i didn't (seriously) consider offing myself. considering where i was emotionally not all that long ago, that is a sort of progress.

i don't really know your bg but i've found that religion/spirituality/cosmos can be a very useful tool. sometimes being able to connect with something bigger than yourself can help put your suffering into perspective

that being said, my heart goes out to you and i hope things start looking up for ya

i know you'll be fine, tad.

Xpost just family. I only have one friend, literally the only friend I have managed to make in my entire life, and there's little to no chance I could explain things to him. The main reason I made friends with him in the first place is that he's socially/emotionally oblivious enough that I didn't get all hypersensitive, panic and shut down like with everone else I meet. All I can talk with him about is the increasingly narrow area where our interests overlap, and that's pretty much down to a tiny subset of video games, which I'm fucking sick of to be honest.

Last weekend I went to my cousin's wedding and spent my time either in the company of people I didn't know and had nothing in common with and pretty much panicked non-stop, or my dad, who did what he's done my entire life and dragged me around to a bunch of shit I hate and made staggeringly insensitive comments. All while everyone my age is celebrating the end of a part of life I never even got to start.

And now I've just learned my grandmother's taken a sudden turn for the worse and probably won't make it through the weekend, and I don't know how I'm going to be able to cope with it. I'm taking a flight to be with her and my mom, who's not dealing with this very well either, but I'm just not ready for any of this. And I feel like such a selfish shit for worrying about how I'm going to handle this, or for sitting alone and drinking all the way through my cousin's wedding reception.

avoid alcohol until the depression has lifted

not just "imo" here but empirically do not drink if you are suicidally depressed.

you're not selfish for having those worries. that's a hard situation, and many people have similar feelings.

UAAIHL is right about not-drinking.

A close friend of mine on the other side of the world is dealing with some similar problems, TT...so if you can't lay that stuff out to someone close to you, as lame as it might sound, get it out of your head and lay it out here...I won't speak for everyone but even if we can't fix what's up, we will listen...and sometimes just laying it out can help. If it's bad enough that you feel like you're that alone, by all means we will be your company.

My only counsel would be to not anticipate anxiety. Don't get yourself tied up in a knot worrying about being worried, worried about how you are going to get through coming days. Get through today. Get through lunchtime, and look at the things that you can do right now, not what you can't do. Your grandmother is still here, while she's here, you know...anticipating how you're going to feel if you lose her...it's an awful situation to be in, but you have to try not to think about that, because it will make you feel far far worse.

I agree with what Daniel said. What you're going through now IS tough PERIOD. Don't think of your concerns as selfish or that you "have" to be strong.

Staying away from booze when depressed STRONGLY thirded.

TT, have you looked into group therapy, and also cognitive behavioral therapy? group therapy might answer that need to talk out loud to people who really get it. a coworker of mine said it really helped her. and CB can really give you some control over what feels like a totally uncontrollable thing. i would guess that at least 60% of ilxors suffer from moderate to severe anxiety or panic disorder or depression or a combo - so keep in mind that while it may seem like you can't find anyone who understands what you're going through, there really are people out there who do - and we're not rare.

tons of ppl have already mentioned the exercise thing, but i just want to re-emphasise that exercise can REALLY REALLY help - don't underestimate it.

i'm so sorry you haven't found a therapist who can help you, but please keep looking - don't give up yet.

one more thing: you are not your illness. severe anxiety, panic disorders, etc., are illnesses/disabilities - they are not the sum total of your personality any more than diabetes is for a diabetic. part of the vicious cycle of anxiety and panic and depression, imo, is that you start to feel like it's all you are, which only exacerbates the problem. you're not weak, or less of a person, because of your particular brain chemical makeup.

The first guy I ever really fell for (I made a move/got rejected/stayed friends w him after he later moved away) tried to kill himself with pills a few days ago and it is seriously a horrible, horrible feeling. I don't think he realized how many people cared about him even though he was convinced he had "no one". If you (or ANYONE READING THIS THREAD, seriously) want to webmail me and talk about stuff I'd be more than happy to try to help out, or even just listen. Believe me, I've felt what you've felt.

"he's socially/emotionally oblivious enough that I didn't get all hypersensitive, panic and shut down like with everone else I meet."

the thing that makes the small amount of good friends that I have actually be great friends is that they are flawed
they are very different then me when it comes to strengths and weaknesses. we are an odd bunch and I can't imagine having friends any other way

TT: feel free to email me as well. I am crazy busy these days, but if I can I may at least be able to talk.

Whatever else may happen, you really aren't alone. Please take up any offers to talk or for therapy. I am learning a lot of this stuff right now, too.

Thanks for the encouragement- it sounds trite to say this but it really does mean a lot. I think the worst of it is over...my grandmother passed away on Saturday, and the details of making funeral arrangements, travel, and helping my mom and her siblings has put a lot of my self-pity-party bullshit into perspective. I'm seeing a new psychologist after work today, and hopefully I'll be able to lay this out in a way that makes sense. I've also got an unfilled prescription for Prozac lying around that I might use to see if it helps... I was very resistant to the idea, since I've been on one or another of a huge pharmocopeia of psych meds for well over half my life at this point, and not only have none of them worked consistently, the side effects have very often made things worse (try gaining 60 lbs in one year in high school and see what that does to your confidence). But right now I think I'd rather be fat and distracted and unable to feel anything at all than constantly stuck on how much of a normal life I missed out on.

Thanks for the encouragement- it sounds trite to say this but it really does mean a lot. I think the worst of it is over...my grandmother passed away on Saturday, and the details of making funeral arrangements, travel, and helping my mom and her siblings has put a lot of my self-pity-party bullshit into perspective. I'm seeing a new psychologist after work today, and hopefully I'll be able to lay this out in a way that makes sense. I've also got an unfilled prescription for Prozac lying around that I might use to see if it helps... I was very resistant to the idea, since I've been on one or another of a huge pharmocopeia of psych meds for well over half my life at this point, and not only have none of them worked consistently, the side effects have very often made things worse (try gaining 60 lbs in one year in high school and see what that does to your confidence). But right now I think I'd rather be fat and distracted and unable to feel anything at all than constantly stuck on how much of a normal life I missed out on.
--a black white asian pine ghost who is fake (Telephone thing)

Well, hold that thought. It sounds like a cliche, but take it day-by-day. And find something -- ANYTHING -- to get your mind out of a self-destructive rut.

Hey, whoa, TT! That is some heavy shit!

Psych med side effects can be really not fun and really unpredictable. OTOH going on and off of them – not taking them for a couple days/weeks for whatever reason – has its own bouquet of different and (in my experience/opinion) even worse side effects. So when you say

I've also got an unfilled prescription for Prozac lying around that I might use to see if it helps

I could be wrong or jumping to conclusions, but it sounds like you have been on Prozac recently & stopped taking it for while. If you've been taking meds for a while & then stopped, that could be part of your problem. Some of my biggest psychological lows, my most fucked up times where I had the least perspective, were times not on meds or off meds, but just when I ran out of meds. If you want to quit taking them, work with a sympathetic doctor who knows how to taper off these things, but please try not to just stop taking them. Or, if you want to take them (which if you have been thinking about suicide, I would say this might not be the time to quit taking them, but once again talk to your doctor), stay on them. Just don't run out of pills! Once again, many apologies if I reached the wrong conclusion. I hope you get feeling less shitty.

abbott 100% otm

prozac has worked wonders for me

It's a new prescription, a couple weeks old, that I hadn't filled yet. I haven't been on any meds since earlier this year, when a short course of Pristiq made the depression unbearably worse and I tapered it off. I'm pretty skeptical of the Prozac, since I've been put on almost every other antidepressant on the market at one time or another and they never do any good, but I'm running out of options and if it's good for even a little while it would be worth it.

fwiw a large number of people I graduated with swear Prozac helped them survive college, like maybe 20-30 people

that's interesting that prozac is one you haven't tried - in new zealand it's pretty much the first thing they prescribe (i guess bc it's the cheapest/most generic in NZ) and then they go from there if it doesn't work.

I don't know why, either. It's practically synonymous with "antidepressant," the first one anyone thinks of when you mention them. I've been on practically everything else in the SSRI and SNRI classes at one time or another as well as a few others (Effexor, Pristiq, Wellbutrin, Remeron).

Tonight I'm keeping myself occupied with lots of coffee and loud music, which is working pretty well, Rotund for Success especially.

i am going through a real hard rough patch right now ... God, this is hell.

i am sorry to hear that EB. you were giving such good advice only a couple days ago. i mean, if that guy could talk to you now, you'd see that he's right. main thing is that how you feel in the moment is a transitory thing, no matter how final or permanent it might seem. it will pass and has basically nothing to do with who you are underneath.

hang in there, eisbar. you seem like a totally alright dude who deserves a break. hoping all this lifts for you soon.

and tt too of course.

i know, Louis. thanks for the kind words. i am trying to extricate myself from a very bad situation -- and people (including not a few ILXors) are helping me as best as they can. and i REALLY REALLY want to get out of this situation i'm in and i want to live. but in the end, i am alone -- and i am having a very rough, sleepless night. getting out of this is going to be very tough, and i don't know how i am going to make it. fear of the future is part of it, and i need courage and faith.

thanks, rent.

how am i louis now? so confusing... anyway, i wish there was something i could do to help. i don't know what your situation is, so i can't say anything too specific. just want you to be okay and to get through what only amounts to one night out of thousands. thing is, almost everything becomes less with time, but it's hard to see that when the storm comes down.

sorry contenderizer ... got you confused for some reason.

no worries. funny thing is, you're not the 1st to make the connection today. but you are the 1st to mean it. wheels within wheels...

"I have a new philosophy. I'm only going to dread one day at a time."
— Charles M. Schulz

Eisbaer, TT, i've got nothing of substance to add except for my best wishes

I've been doing ok lately...some embarassing mood swings and sleep problems, but the doubling of my workload (our company's other customer service rep had to quit for personal reasons) has been kind of a blessing in disguise. I come home exhausted and frustrated, but frustrated with something _external_, which is a lot easier to deal with.

I've been trying to keep myself busy with productive stuff, reading and studying the subjects I wanted to get into but couldn't stand to think about after I failed out of school and gave up on myself for a while, but it's difficult going. Every so often I'll catch myself realizing that I've made basically no progress in my life for the last decade and have to go lie down until I can come to grips with just how much of my life I've wasted.

Distractions are helping, though, and if anything I am extraordinarily easy to distract, so I've been dicking around with video games and music and comics whenever I can justify it to myself as not a total waste of time.

Man, I have always struggled with these thoughts. I mean, I know this, so I have basically gone out of my way to try and make it not possible to happen. It's always my brain's first response to things, though, and it's unwanted. Like how I always think of Book of Mormon verses that relate to things that are going on even though I don't believe them, or find them in any way beneficial or pleasant. It's just the first thing my mind throws up in reaction to some things. In reaction to "setbacks" or just sadness, it's always, 'Hey, death...can we make this happen?' I hate this so much, I hate that the past 15 years of my life have been my mind telling me several times a week that I should die. I feel like an ass saying this but I am just in so much pain right now.

I am just in so much pain right now.

i'm really sorry to read this. i hope things get better.

Abbott, though I obviously can't place myself entirely in your shoes, I also really empathize and understand. Often, my first reaction to bad shit surrounding me is 'well i could always just kill myself.' but then i think about all of my friends who've done the act, and how much i miss them, and how i would never want to make anyone i care about feel that way.

just know that you're not alone. we all care about you here. if you ever want to talk or anything, i'm around. need to get my AIM account re-set up, but yeah. <3

You're not an ass for saying that, Abbott! It's a big deal to put all of that in writing, even here...seriously, lay it on us, we can take it. (hugs!)

Hang in there, Abbott. If there's anything I've learned from trying to help my wife, it's that this hopeless feeling always passes.

Hey Abbott, I know I've only been here less than a year and we haven't really talked, but you are definitely one of the coolest, nicest and smartest people here.

I won't say that I know *exactly* how you feel because feelings are too nuanced for that, but the allure of suicide definitely comes back to me rather often, but, as Table and others in the thread have said, the amount of pain it would cause my loved ones keeps me alive.

If you ever want to talk about anything at all my AIM name is cocoreyrey.

Abbott, hope you feel better soon! You know where I am if you need to talk.

Simply echoing what all have said. Stick around, Abbott. The sunrises, outside or inside yourself, do come.

every post by abbott is a sunrise, tbrr

^

suicide is the worst thing, dont do it, please

Develop an overwhelming fear of death. It worked for me.

what ice cr?m said

also: Abbott u rock & are a valuable ilxor imo

I know exactly what you mean about that reflexive first-thought brain response and I HATE it.

Please don't. I don't want to make you feel GUILTY or anything, but you are a ray of sunshine to so many people you don't even know that you are to. (sorry clumsy grammar)

Or if that doesn't work, you can do like I do - I know very few people who would actively miss me for long if I were gone, but I DOOO thing about the people that it actively pisses them off that I'm still alive, and go on living as a constant "fuck you" to them. It's far more satisfying. ;-)

(This post has not been entirely serious, but my assertions as to the awesomeness and necessary-ness of the continuation of Abbott have been entirely serious.)

abbott hope you can feel better, you are a great person it seems to me.

Abbott I don't know if this is true or not, but in a Donald Barthelme story there was a reference to Nietzsche saying somewhere that the thought of suicide helped get him thru many a long night -- Nietzsche, u will recall, did not end up killing himself, altho he did go pretty crazy, but... point being, hey, hang in there kiddo! <3

hang in there, abbs!

Oh Abbott HUGS HUGS HUGS. I know exactly how you feel, but there're always so many people who'd always feel sad if you actually did it. Pls don't.

feel like an ass saying this

ILX and the mad animals fanclub need you. Here's a little tip: indulge in something that makes you feel special and good, where you're pampered and cared for, like a nail salon, therapeutic mud bath, massage, etc, etc. - if that doesn't work and you still feel like an ass, then maybe you could schedule an appointment at the famous:

http://i33.tinypic.com/28he4u9.jpg

you climb up through whatever means, and you live to tell your pain that you were stronger than it was.

sage advice from upthread.
like you say in your post, this has been a nagging problem with your brain for a long time, and you've kept your brain in check for all that time. it sucks that it's there but you're real strong to have kept doing what you're doing and not letting it mess you around. wish you the best luck finding good ways to feel better.

A, I know all too well what you're saying. But just let it pass another day. And then another. Have you talked about this with others? Because you have to. Really. (I haven't completely *displayed* my feelings, as usual. But I did check with a doctor and now I'm on pills, although I fear not strong enough.) Suicide is not a solution: depression can be solved much easier and more rewarding, you can live happy. I don't know for how long this has been going on, but it has got to stop. I know from personal experience just going through the motions isn't going to solve it. Check with a doctor and get some pills. Then proceed towards therapy. Let's do this together, A. :-)

StanM: That's good advice for someone who's had a bad day at work or had an argument with someone and feels a little down. Abbott's far, far beyond that--you've just done the equivalent of advising someone to put out a fire with a water pistol.

abbott: you had been so helpful and kind to me when i was at my lowest not that long ago. if there's anything that i can do to return the favor, please get in touch with me somehow and any time. i mean it.

xp: ok

Abbott, again - you're a wise and illuminating person to interact with here and I've learned TONS from stuff you just randomly post, as if the knowledge you have was no biggie at all. It is. Hang in there!

^ this. Abbott, you are one of my favorite posters here and you have a lot to offer the world. Please don't give up on yourself.

And I'm willing to listen, too.

in a Donald Barthelme story there was a reference to Nietzsche saying somewhere that the thought of suicide helped get him thru many a long night -- Nietzsche, u will recall, did not end up killing himself, altho he did go pretty crazy,

Ha! Bernard, that does help actually. I always got bummed at this poster that was all around downtown Las Cruces like 'Hey look at all this mentally ills, they had lives people admire,' and half of them ended in suicide. But, a lot didn't too, I guess, which didn't occur to me until just now. You have to admire people who struggle with thoughts like that and never succumb! Good role models.

I was having a dark night last night, thanks for everyone's kind words.

abbott - hope you are feeling better, you are like the best person i know who i have never actually met. sending good vibes.

echoing everyone else; you're awesome. i hope you feel better soon.

Oh Abbott, you are supremely awesome and a brilliant person - having you on ilx is such a source of joy, the way you write about things makes me look at them newly and always in a more interesting light. It's horrible to know that you're in pain; you are a person who I don't want to be sad.

I am one of those people who likes to keep suicide as an ace up my sleeve, the thing I'll have left even if I haven't anything else - and sometimes it's a useful reassurance and sometimes it's a terrible crutch, and sometimes all I can do is daydream about being run over because then it wouldn't even be my fault. But I think about it pretty much on a daily basis, even when I'm not unhappy, just idly. The worst of it, sometimes, is hating yourself for it because it feels like such a selfish and such a petulant reaction - like a teenager stropping 'i'll kill myself and you'll be sorry'. But all I can do is live with it - and, like you said, go out of my way to make it impossible, by having things I can't leave unfinished and people I can't leave behind, and the unfinishable project of being a decent person to fall back on. It is no fun! You have all my sympathy.

I think that the past few summer weeks and especially the past week has had something maddening in the air. Technically the best thing to do would be to not sit on this loco energy but expel it by going on a long jog or a long walk.

I started having some suicidal thoughts lately just because there is a bunch of problems in my life that have been stacking up. I've also had thoughts of punching the wall or hitting my head against it. (I should be taking my own advice to get some exercise). However, I have come up with some ideas to alleviate my problems. One of which will be visiting a pysch/therapist next Tuesday.

Abbot, I don't know you outside this board, but I value your opinions much too highly for me to sleep soundly with the knowledge that I'll never read them again. I love you, and hang on.

i hope you're okay.

yeah. hang in there, kid.

I started having some suicidal thoughts lately . . . . However, I have come up with some ideas to alleviate my problems. One of which will be visiting a pysch/therapist next Tuesday.

― @( * O * )@ (CaptainLorax)

you hang in there, too.

I just realized that Abbott and I are the same age (I was reading a thread on ILTMI)

Abbott, do you have a boyfriend or husband? For some reason I'm thinking that you have a husband

I have always been under the impression that if I wasn't single then the problems in my life wouldn't seem so bad (this is just a hypothesis)

I have a husband and he's an A+ dude.

A+ dude husbands don't magic problems away. And StanM, just to let you know that little things that make things better for a little while are a good thing, imo, and I think it's good advice, even if it's advice that's hard to take on board when you feel like you've been kicked from all angles.

Hang on in there Abbott.

I have a husband and he's an A+ dude.

― spanikopitcon (Abbott), Saturday, 7 August 2010 23:30 (9 minutes ago)

has weird opinions about indie metal imho

abb just mailed your ilx email...

abbott hope you can feel better, you are a great person it seems to me.

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Saturday, August 7, 2010 5:49 AM

Thank you, ailsa - my message was mainly an attempt to bring some levity and maybe, optimistically, even a smile at that "ass hair salon" picture which I had rather far fetchedly tried to semi-relevantly link to abbott's message and words. (She said she felt like an ass, sometimes people who feel bad pamper themselves by getting their hair did, ass hair salon picture, done. That's how my brain cell works.) The stern reprimand afterwards only reminded me that my kind of childish thinking usually only annoys grown ups, which I tend to forget. Thanks for the consolation, though.

You'd think that this realisation would be enough to stay away from serious threads like this one, but I think that if someone like me, who has more than enough reasons to be depressed and suicidal if I thought about it enough to let it all become a problem (no close friends at all, no idea how to get out more, almost 40 year old vir(that movie with steve carroll), looking like frank black from the pixies, embarrassing health issues I probably should get looked at but won't, etc etc) can miraculously not have a problem and be at peace with his life then there's hope for everyone. Although that may not immediately be clear from my typical "just posting something i thought was funny to a thread I thought was relevant" posting style.

But anyway. More than tmi than I like to divulge.

yeah, had no idea you were so old!

Abbott, I am a lazy poster and more of a lurker really, but your posts are one of the main reasons I'm here.

Stan dont feel bad about what you posted, I thought it was sweet :/

I think we all know Stan meant well as he's a good guy!

Ass Hair Salon made me lol...levity is good!

<3 u all

StanM, you aren't alone with your aloneness issue. I've never been in a long-term relationship.

I stopped having suicidal thoughts. I think that my decision to start some routines that will improve my life has made me happier in general even though I haven't started those routines yet

Deciding to start is a good start :) keep your chin up, Lorax!

^ otm

abbott: after my own recent ordeals, i wish that i had something more profound or insightful to say. but you made it through the day and you will make it through the night -- i hope that that can give you strength to go on. and that you take more strength from the outpouring of support from everyone on this thread -- such support has kept me going, and i hope it does the same for you.

StanM: I'm sorry if I caused you any pain. Your post just reminded me of the "Buck, up kiddo!" statements that clinically/subcliniclly depressed people have to put up with all of the time--as if a serious disease like depression is caused by a failure of willpower. Again, I know you didn't mean it that way, and I'm sorry.

Don't worry, no harm caused! thx!

xpost He meant well. But you are right. My mum keeps saying "Oh a talk with your dad will sort everything out!" or what about "It'll get better as you grow older." Uh no. It gets worse tbh. Nor does having a (wonderful) partner help. I was single and depressed and now I'm married... and depressed. I don't think kids nor husband can really drag you out of a depression.

I have to say: the (legal) drugs do work. It's better. Not gone AT ALL. But at least the suicidal thoughts are gone.

A major problem is that depression-as-in-having-a-bad-day and depression-the-chronic-illness share the same word in English. Add to that the fact that PTSD shares many of the same symptoms, and it's no wonder that many people get confused.

I don't think it's fair that "buck up kiddo" is said to depressed people, either. Depression is just there, you don't choose it. The person who says "buck up kiddo" is getting a power trip off of you. You have to rise to the challenge though or your situation might get worse.

What I mean is that if you get offended by someone saying that you might not have the strength to get better. Part of what might cripple you is you allowing yourself to be affected by what some power tripping jerk says to you.

A major problem is that depression-as-in-having-a-bad-day and depression-the-chronic-illness share the same word in English. Add to that the fact that PTSD shares many of the same symptoms, and it's no wonder that many people get confused.

^^^^^Grade A Truth Bomb there.

Also the conflation of depression-the-chronic-illness with the idea of "going through a rough patch" - and that some people are able to pull themselves out of a rough patch, so they feel like they can tell people with depression-the-chronic-illness "oh, why don't you just go out to the pub and go play some football and get some friends" like OOPS ::slaps self upside the head::" why did I never think of that?" level of fucking d'oh. (Sorry, yes, my usual saw that I like to carp about on ILX depression threads.)

Nath, just a word of warning about the legal drugs working - please be aware that this effect may be temporary. I had that experience, when I first when on SSRIs, that the reflex suicide urge just went away, like someone had just turned on a light. And that was the most amazing thing. However, this effect is not permanent. If you don't find a way of dealing with root issues, they do come back, often in such a slow and insidious way that you don't realise it's happening. (At this point, my experience is that doctors will say "oh, let's just jack the dosage up, then" - and that's when the weird-ass side effects of SSRIs and their pernicious addictive nature start to rear their ugly heads.)

While you have that clear head, work on the root causes, make changes in your lifestyle and your attitudes and whatever else it is that you can.

I have been treated for depression and I am wondering what "depression the chronic illness" is like. I am not disparaging the idea at all, I hope I do not offend, I am just wondering what the control factors are. Like are you determined to be "chronically depressed" if there are no other contributing factors (grief, economic uncertainty, substance abuse, family problems etc.) in your life?

I believe that chemical depression is possible but if you struggled with that wouldn't that automatically define you as not doomed and "miserable"? It would be a disability like having a bad knee.

I guess what I am asking is why are people so condemning and impatient and demanding of someone who might not have a particularly bad life but who just struggles with feeling "down" a lot.

Again I do not wish to offend, it just seems like society spends a lot of energy berating people for not being "happy" when there is no way someone can objectively define another person as "happy".

I don't know that I'm qualified to answer that, given that my official diagnosis is "bipolar" which is by its nature a chronic and cyclical illness. I think that chronic depression is kinda like that, but without the mitigating highs in between the lows. You can manage it, you can do thing to alleviate it, but it's like it's always there, lurking in the background, and maybe even little setbacks like another person would shrug off, they can tip you into a downward spiral that ends up in that dark place you can't climb out of. It's like you go to put your weight on your leg, knowing that you're trying to walk across an uneven pavement, and that leg just won't bear the weight, in the way that a healthy not-broken leg would.

Same with the mind.

I mean, my mum is full of theories about "patterns of negative thinking" and "reinforcing neural pathways" which sounds a bit like overly deterministic bullcrap to me (I'm mistrustful of American and its relentless focus on "positivity" all the time.) But the idea that if you have one episode of major depression, it does make you at risk for having more - it's almost like it's this automatic pattern of thinking, that once you start sliding down into it, it's not like a bad mood you can snap out of. It's this quicksandy thing that gets hold of you, and the more you struggle not to fall into it, the deeper you get.

Sorry, I'm sounding like a bad self help book. It's something that I only really can describe in metaphor.

I'm having a bit of a triggered kind of a day and it's like standing at the edge of a really dark lake that you can't see the other side of, but you know what lurks there, and you do not want to step into that water, but there's a really strong headwind and you're feeling a bit too weak to climb. Bah.

I think the difference between "going through a bad patch" and "chronic depression" is kinda like the difference between a sprained ankle and a broken leg.

Like, if you have a sprained ankle, it fucking HURTS to walk, but still, you actually can still walk, in fact, you really rather need to. If you have a broken leg, you physically can NOT walk and you will actually do yourself some serious damage if you try.

Obviously a clumsy metaphor but, you know, I have bad days, and I have depressions, you learn to tell the difference in yourself.

I agree with you on the relentless focus on something as undefinable as "positivity", when it's tossed at you by someone who faces completely different life circumstances it is an exercise of power and nothing more. All the more reason to be depressed.

Like when my brother was a kid he lost a good friend in a tragic incident and afterward was determined to have "adjustment problems". It was decided that the solution was for him to develop skills outside of school, get socially involved in the community. It was a good thing for him in the long run, but for years he played sports and was heavily involved in extracurricular activities where he had to listen to various male authority figures giving him this patter, guys who had no such mark on their development. How can people so glib and ignorant govern your life.

If people take responsibility for what is medically defined as an "illness" their relative "happiness" or attitude is no one else's business.

Bad patch = good food still tastes good, funny jokes still make you laugh, good company can cheer you up temporarily, you can point to fairly rational reasons why you feel like crap on a stick most of the time.

The disease (from which I have not yet in my life suffered) seems quite a bit worse.

the bad patch CAN lead to the disease ... esp. w/t good food, good friends, good jokes, etc.

Kate, you are right, that's what my doctor also suggested: after one month (in about two weeks now) I have to check in with him and talk about possible therapy. I should go back to my therapist, slap him in the face and say: "Thanks for ignoring my anxiety remarks." He basically just waved'em away. I'm not blaming him though, it's all up to me and me ignoring the warning signs yet again.

i thought that the only real thing missing from my life was my 'soul mate' and once (or if) i found them my life would be pretty much perfect. i DID find that person and he is actually perfect in every possible way... but i'm still me. yes, now i have this amazing supportive person who is there for me 24/7, which is fantastic. but depression/anxiety/mental disorders aren't cured by love. maybe alleviated a little, but def not cured. so in some ways i feel like it's worse, bc before you meet that person, you can hold onto that hope that a relationship will save you.

i don't if the broken leg metaphor is the best one - i think it's more like having a weakened immune system. The big difference is resilience - the ability to bounce back, or to shrug stuff off.

Your mileage may vary.

Weakened immune system doesn't work as a metaphor for me, because when I'm in manic phase, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BOTHERS ME AT ALL!!! but that doesn't mean that my mind is functioning normally.

Unipolar depression, though, may be different.

i thought that's what we were talking about? After reading about everyone else on here's experience w/SSRIs, I feel really fortunate that my negative side-effects are really minor: like reduced tolerance to the effects of alcohol and slower metabolism, which means i end up getting a decent amount of physical exercise.

OK, I will remove myself from the conversation as clearly I'm not qualified to talk about my experiences.

Yesterday I spent some time with a person who may have a learning disability. I feel guilty after being exposed to such a person because am I getting a psychological lift from having external problems not so great? Is it wrong to say to myself, well could be worse, I could have no arms or legs or be permanently blind and isn't that also a pitying condescending attitude? I guess depression isn't something you should think your way out of....which is funny because at least one counselor told me that my thinking was too negative.

OK, I will remove myself from the conversation as clearly I'm not qualified to talk about my experiences.

What was posted in this thread that led you to write that?

It's hard, and it's painful enough to talk about this stuff in public.

But when someone goes and tells you - when you have stated that you are talking about your illness and your experience of it - that your metaphor is not valid or helpful, and then tells you "oh, but we're talking about something else" when you stated that you were talking about something not entirely similar but related - it really does feel like being shut down and excluded and told to get out of the conversation.

I should not participate in ILX discussions of depression or suicide or mental illness. It is not helpful and it only ends with people upset and unhappy and feeling misunderstood.

OH, fuck it. Please remove my post and the one before it. I don't want another slapdown on ILX for being the crazy angry lady who can't explain herself. Again.

Geez Kate, of course you are qualified to talk about your experiences! I don't want to play thread police. I was just under the impression that we were discussing, as you put it, "unipolar depression" - but you can contribute in any way that you want - you can talk about bipolar disorder, or unicorns, or pizza or whatever. It's just a thread on ilx.

^^ okay, i did not mean that at all sarcastically - basically, this is just a form of conversation, and conversations shift in focus or derail or become a series of goofy jokes or puns IRL, so policing them just seems silly to me as long as they remain functional and productive conversations, which this is.

at the risk of derailing this thread, i just want to publicly thank everyone who came to my aid several months ago. i think -- i HOPE -- that things are seriously on the mend on my end (though i have no real promise that that is so). but things have gotten quite better since i originally was here, and i am so very grateful to everyone who reached out to me.

:)

(to tad, obv)

Yes, that's good to hear.

i've often thought about suicide and the hardest thing is working out how exactly to do it. i have no access to guns which is probably the easiest/swiftest method, jumping off a high building is too risky (not guaranteed to work and you might just end up an invalid), ditto overdose, drowning far too scary, hanging too morbid, slitting wrists too goth. and then there's the guilt over how it will affect your loved ones. if anyone is aware of a suicide technique that avoids any of the above issues, please let me know!

volcano

if you're thinking of methods to do it, then you're far gone enough to need some help. seriously.

i don't think there's a method that avoids affecting your loved ones.

I'm afraid we're mostly here to discourage ppl from ciding their sui instead of helping them find the best way to do it, r1o.

Or wait. I know the perfect method and I'll tell you in 2060.

Yeah, it's not a "C/D" kinda thread. There's got to be some kind of modicum of respect, methinks.

Call me names, but I've thought seriously about the same thing r10 just said, and that's been a real deterrent for me to killing myself.

I guess that statement deserves some explanation: what I mean is that often suicide would seem appealing to me, but the ultimate physical reality of seeing myself as a corpse and nothing more is frightening enough to keep me from ever doing it.

r10 just came off as a touch, um, glib...no problem with what you just said, at all, corey. In fact I'm sure you are not alone in that thought

sorry that my thoughts of suicide aren't as authentic as others on this thread. i'll try to be more genuine next time

oh dear.

Razors pain you;
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren’t lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.

slitting wrists too goth

4 real

i guess i forgot the sylvian plath technique in my write up

haha sylvian plath

david sylvian plath

Reading upthread — How is your brother, Abbott?

I like Abbott too

Abott is nice, smart and humble. a rare combination. gotta love her.

me too, very much
xp
yes <3

Yesterday I spent some time with a person who may have a learning disability. I feel guilty after being exposed to such a person because am I getting a psychological lift from having external problems not so great? Is it wrong to say to myself, well could be worse, I could have no arms or legs or be permanently blind and isn't that also a pitying condescending attitude?

Basically what you're saying is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn6DELVwXjU

(Apols if inappropriate, btw Abbott you are great!)

Just checking in to say that you've all already made all of the points I was going to make. (This was the wrong day to get called in to work, I guess.)

Reading upthread — How is your brother, Abbott?

Ah...my brother is a lot better! My parents finally started taking him seriously & they actually listened to a doctor's advice, got meds, etc. He got some therapy, he is taking better care of his diabetes, and he is closer to not living with my parents anymore so I think that makes him happy. He got a driver's license, which is some kind of icon of freedom and adulthood. It also sounds like he made some weirdo friends who are into the same stuff he is. My brother wins the award for Basically Coolest Human of All Time so I am glad his thoughts are happy ones & not ones of death. And, corey, it really means a lot to me that you asked.

Reading that brought a tear to my eye. Glad to hear it, all of it!

aw, that's great to hear!

i am also happy to hear the good news about your brother, Abbott!

I'm glad that things are getting better with him, too.

Very glad indeed. :-)

Okay.

My brain has been leading me into these patterns of negative thoughts lately. I have no money for food, I've basically had to steal change from my roommate's bedroom in order to even go to work. At work I'm too angry to deal with customers. I got a parking ticket I know I can't pay in time, and if I don't it will double in cost. I'm not even sure if I'll be able to pay rent this month. I feel like this country basically says "fuck you" to anyone who isn't already on the right path to begin with. I feel like college is an institution for the elite and fuck anyone else who can't afford to shell out thousands of dollars for a bunch of fucking courses that you don't even care about in a classroom with a bunch of fucking kids who don't care whether they're there or not. I would rather die than go back and live with my parents again and fail yet again for the third time in my adult life. I've thought about myself being dead more often than ever for the past month. I don't know what to do.

I imagine you are very far from the only person here with those circumstances, but if they are really driving you to say you'd "rather die than...", well, anything, really... you need to get professional help.

what makes you feel like you've failed twice and are in danger of failing a third time?

xp I can't afford counseling.

Having tried to live on my own and having to move back with my parents again.

answering sarahel's question I mean

financial independence is something to value, true, but it shouldn't be the sole determinant of your self worth. the economy sucks right now. i have tons of friends going through existential crises because their unemployment has run out or is about to run out.

they're not contemplating suicide, however, just trying to figure out wtf to do with their lives. Do you have a good relationship with your parents? Is it something where you can borrow money from them so you can continue to live independently?

how old are you?

corey, you're right about some aspects of this world... but giving up is just a giving in. that's easy to say, i know, but i really mean it: don't give in. we love you.

also, just to say: the standards of the world can suck it. i have a fucking master's degree, am terribly underemployed, and am still pretty fucking happy with my life. fuck this culture that equates success with capital.

xp we have a fairly good relationship, but I can't live with my stepfather and I don't want live in Florida ever again

I'm 23

thank you Teddy

are you currently in college or did you just graduate?

I've never gone to college apart from two classes at a community college.

^ OTM. Do your parents understand how you feel in yourself? Would being around them make things worse (like, is there extra level of parental guilt about to be laid down, or will they be cool about it to buy you some time to build some savings while you figure out the next stage?)?

FWIW, I have qualifications coming out my ears and I work as a receptionist. I sussed out a life that allowed me this piss-easy life that made me enough money to get by, and I'm way happier because I've learned to deal with it. It took time, and ILX probably shows that over the years (I was at your stage about five years ago). Reevaluation is good, and an external ear and a bit of breathing to give you the space to do that is invaluable.

xpost, table OTM

is college something you want to do? as much as debt sucks, financial aid does provide a living allowance.

corey, I'm your age and basically the only reason I can afford to live on my own is because I'm in a long-term live-in relationship. I have *tons* of friends in your situation, and I'm sure you know plenty of people too.

you gotta realize that your problems here are *situational* - and life situations change in ways you'd never be able to predict. you could move to another country and teach english. you could find a job doing something you'd never imagine yourself doing.

even though it looks like there's no light at the end of the tunnel, it's still really not the worst place you could be - there are people who are married w/ good jobs / happy situations and who still want to kill themselves cause they're fundamentally depressed.

xp Yes. I want to study music. But I wonder all the time if music is something I've chosen because I'm not good at understanding anything else, like a last hope — and I'm afraid that when/if I do study I'll be surrounded by people who have always been on their path and expose me for a mediocrity.

"over the years (I was at your stage about five years ago). Reevaluation is good"

otm

it's a matter of perspective/cognitive thinking, and for most people i think it either comes over the years, or - if they are aware of it and strong enough mentally-they try to change their thinking (or even try not to think about it at all if thats possible) while it happenns.

study music. you post on a messageboard called I Love Music, i think youll be able to find a way to make it work

iatee, I know. And the feeling comes and goes, regardless of my situation. After I sort of became self-aware and started considering the idea of willpower I would keep telling myself "I'm not a victim! Depression is victim mentality!", but really the fact that I have to keep telling myself this belies the truth.

when i was your age, i was in a similar situation - lost a job that was a "real job" that i'd envisioned as part of a "career" and felt like i'd failed at life. and the only thing more horrible to contemplate than a future as a failure and a nobody was having to move back in with my parents in the crappy small town where i grew up that i'd spent my teenage years doing everything possible to get the fuck out of. my parents totally understood that, and they helped me out financially until i was in a position to pay my own way.

corey, what kind of music do you want to study? and where? Mills has a great program here in Oakland.

if you do end up back w/ your parents, I think a college degree is probably a good goal / thing to plan for / way out of your parents' house - there are actually tons of sources of essentially free money (pell grants, scholarships, school's financial aid) - and florida has pretty decent colleges.

Mills is female-only for undergrad education, only the grad program accepts guys.

xxp classical composition. I'm not really sure where.

check out OBERLIN.

it's expensive, but you can get tons of aid there if they dig yr portfolio. plus the TIMARA program is like, best program evah. i minored in Music Comp there, it was amazing.

sarahel, the same happened to me. And I was happily married with a mortgage and good friends (still am, like, but just to put in context that background circumstances mean bugger all when you feel that worthless in yourself). I just had to reevaluate because I had no other option (other than THE option that this thread's about), and I figured in my better-off moments, when I was receptive and open to good ideas, that I could assess priorities, focus on the positive, yada yada yada. I just took it from there. It doesn't always work, and I'm no hippie happy cheerleader for life, but I'm still here.

corey, there is tons of good advice here. Take on board as a first step towards seeing a way out, even if you can't do it right now.

Oberlin is a really good school for music - of course, one of my friends went to Oberlin for music, then Mills for grad school in music, and is now really bitter because his "reward" is teaching math to juvenile delinquents

i studied with this dude, who unfortunately retired, but has been replaced by an equally awesome dude:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_Coleman

If you're concerned about debt and also on the fence about whether studying is music is the best thing for you, you might want to consider going to a cheaper school - maybe a state school that has a good music program.

anyway, what i'm saying is that there are lots of great places to study that will help you achieve what you want to achieve. so. don't despair. if you ever want to talk, i'm around.

Michigan has an amazing comp program, fwiw

do you like where you are currently living? Are you in Chicago?

moving back to your parents isnt so bad if you know it's temporary - in order to save some money and i don't know when you left your parents, but your old town might look better to you in the eyes of a more grown up guy..

Thank you all.

I'm in Chicago, yes.

Zeno, I moved here just this past January.

otoh it could look even worse and more depressing - depending on what the town is like - like where i grew up, anyone who was smart or interesting moved away, and the people left that are in their 20s are breeding and Wal-Mart shopping their lives away.

That pretty much describes where I moved from.

corey - a good friend of mine did composition at Columbia College - I think he had a good experience

" like where i grew up, anyone who was smart or interesting moved away, and the people left that are in their 20s are breeding and Wal-Mart shopping their lives away"

i'm sure there are at least SOME interesting people there who don't shop their life away at wal-mart (though i know some interesting people who do shop there sometimes!)

I will look into it, but I think I probably need to have my AA before I apply somewhere like that.

Corey, you might not be the only smart person who went back in whatever circumstances. You might even find smart people who never even left! Re-evaluate!

(didn't realise staying in your hometown and breeding in your 20s and going to supermarkets makes you uninteresting, need to re-re-evaluate some of these friendships)

it's a very stifling place, alisa. I don't think I can make anyone understand how bad it is without having them live there for a few years.

Dude, you should totally throw caution to the wind and go to school for what you want to do. You will never regret it even when it sucks. And don't worry about shit like this:

"I'm afraid that when/if I do study I'll be surrounded by people who have always been on their path and expose me for a mediocrity."

A lot of people who have "always been on their path" usually suck anyway. You will be awesome because you actually took a risk to do it. Definitely look at state schools or places with decent scholarships.

Just speaking from exp, obviously

xp - yes there are some interesting people there - they tend to be quite elderly

thank you admrl

yeah adam - otm!

I think, most importantly, the prospect of college could make living with your parents infinitely more bearable because you'd know there was an end date.

college might not get you a great job (hasn't for me or most of my friends! even ones who went to good colleges.) - but it's a good experience, can be much much cheaper than you think and no matter what your situation later in life, it'd be better if you had a degree. doesn't matter from where.

Wal-Mart shopping

Wal-Mart is actually a pretty great place to shop.

wrong thread for culture wars

Hi corey, we haven't really spoken on ILX but you seem like good people and I liked your tracks that you posted on IMM, hope things look up for you

boring politics of depression shit that I guess now is not the time for but I wrote before I'd read the revive, sorry:
I appreciate that it is annoying to hear teenagers talk about catching severe depression from a boy not smiling at them, or when people go "oh depression, my cousin had that for a month - but now they're happy and highly successful!", but I also kind of feel that over-policing the word "depression" (a condition we don't understand v well imo) is possibly counterproductive too

or, to put it in a more me-me-me way, I was pretty ill for a long time before I saw a doctor, but I knew that Real Depressives get upset at the word being used lightly and not as a special serious thing that special serious people have, and thought I should stop presuming I might be special when I was really just lazy and dumb and bad at stuff

and, since depressives tend to think that they are lazy and dumb and bad at stuff, maybe it is good not to draw lines with that on the other side

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you can't make a living doing something you (presumably) hate, then try something you actually care about. I completely understand the need for financial security, but I have this naive belief that pursuing something you love every day has a way of working out somehow, AND making everything else in your life improve exponentially. I'm definitely an advocate for counseling and even medication for this stuff, but so much of it is situational as well (sorry for such a cliche). Sometimes when everything seems broken you only need to fix one thing and the rest seems to sort itself out somehow.

xp - I prefer Target tbh

xp - I prefer Target tbh - the frozen food section has motion sensor lights - it's like being in that "Kitchen of the Future" industrial film from 1960(?)

corey, I just wanna point out to you that 23 isn't even at the starting gate yet. I know it's rough times sometimes but seriously, you gotta take my word for this, you won't even remember 23 in about 3 years. you are just getting your feet under you. so, get them feet under you. my life did not really begin before I was 26, fwiw.

"think, most importantly, the prospect of college could make living with your parents infinitely more bearable because you'd know there was an end date."

and because studying would keep youre thoughts away, at least to some degree from "i hate this town etc" thoughts

corey, I just wanna point out to you that 23 isn't even at the starting gate yet. I know it's rough times sometimes but seriously, you gotta take my word for this, you won't even remember 23 in about 3 years. you are just getting your feet under you. so, get them feet under you. my life did not really begin before I was 26, fwiw.

― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, August 10, 2010 6:02 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah. when you said you're 23...i mean it's heartbreaking to me that you're that young and feel like a failure...that is literally impossible as far as i'm concerned. i guess it's easier to say than feel but try not to be so hard on yourself.

oh it's called "Design for Dreaming" - but this is how i feel at Target:

http://www.wetcircuit.com/wp-content/myfotos/designfordreaming/DesignforDreaming00.jpg

Seriously, 23. I mean you're still young enough to have a foppish hairstyle and wear cuban heels! And your friends will all have forgotten about it by the time you hit 30. You have lots of time on your hands and fantastic adventures to come.

i'm 25 and my life is just beginngin

ing
you should get a cat

Wait you're always saying that you're old!

haha when i first found out how old (young) a harbl was i could not believe it because she has such a world-weary outlook <3

i'm old but i still have a long way to go

She is an old soul, it's true. But not really

xp

her & ian both!

Ian should have been born in the 1930s and harbl in the 1950s (in soviet russia)

Now I'd like someone to come on and say 32 isn't old, thanks

:)

it's a cliche but it's true: life is full of changes (and there will be more unknown "failures" or "successes" to come), some good, some bad but sometimes the one that seems good at first arent so good at the end and vice versa.

but corey, it sounds like there are a lot of things that you want to do, that you are interested in - that you haven't even tried yet - so "ending it all" before you even try - well you shouldn't!

-- 32 seems young to me --

Good. I think everyone on here should be comforted by someone else slightly older in succession until Dr. Morbius or aimless comes on and cries.

(Not that I really want that to happen, but this is a joke about old people)

I'm 27 in a week and I feel so fucking old.

man, there are so many things i wish i could go back and tell my 32 year old self -- but i probably wouldn't, tbh -- it's better that i had the crushing realizations i did at 33.

oh...awesome

who is the oldest ilxor?

Steven Shasta, he's about to turn 64

wow - a dinosaur!

garu g's gran

having older friends is really good btw - even if you are incredulous about their assurances of the future, once you get to the point where things are starting to sink in, it isn't so scary because you can say, "Hey, this person went through this, and they made it out okay."

" it's better that i had the crushing realizations i did at 33"

all my life are a series of them, but i got used to it i guess lol

No, I do not know who the oldest person on ILX is. My closest friend here in Los Angeles is 67. He tells me the world is speeding up. He also told me that my best years were ahead of me. That was pretty rad

In terms of posters that currently regularly post, I think it's probably Aimless, who's 55.

if the shit that happened to me when i was 33 and 34 had happened to me when i was 23, i probably would have killed myself - like my 23 year old problems just seemed so insignificant in comparison

I love how we treat him as a wise old man, but my mom is that age and I don't consider her old xp

Shhhhh Aimless is having afternoon nap. Start making the oatmeal for when he wakes up and has another proverb for us.

corey if you want to know more about city colleges/other community colleges, i'm here in chicago. webmail me and we can talk about how to get some transferable credits under your belt without accumulating any debt. (i teach at a community college)

this is what you should be doing at this point, not despairing or starving. ps i am days away from being 35 so i am basically a village elder at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vINoPRPHXKY

35 is good, I recommend it!

Love is good, i recommend it!

suicide is not a good idea, i wouldn't recommend it - unless you're dying of a v v painful incurable physical illness

lol jaymc.xls strikes again! xposts

one of my bestest friends is 66. He's an awesome dude. several of my other friends were breeding in their 20s and never left their hometowns. most of my friends are underemployed and/or overeducated people who I think should have made more of their lives but who mostly seem happy with their lots.

Um, point is, expectations and preconceptions (and I had FUCKLOADS of them when I was 23, which is why I ended up a gibbering wreck in hospital thinking I was never going to do anything with my life) are a surefire way to let-down. I never did do anything really with my life, probably never will, but I have a good life and good friends and have come to terms with that as being enough, despite seeing my classmates going on to stride the world like a colossus while I answer phones for teenagers earning twice my salary. I'm 37, btw.

Oh, and I wish I'd had the collective wisdom of ILX when I was young and directionless. You guys are ace. I had to do all this shit on my own!

Love is good, i recommend it!

oh gosh well that's that sorted out then

I'm 27 in a week and I feel so fucking old.

when people say shit like this I want to say to them: I remember how you feel, but can you grasp that pretty much all my dreams came true after I turned 30? get the fuck out of your twenties. they are too stressful. later days is where it's at imo

er, undereducated. I don't think any of my friends are too smart, that's like the worst compliment ever. And I doubt they think they should have made more of their lives, I just think my friends are ace people who deserve better. I didn't explain that very well. Luckily the people to whom I refer will not be reading this.

xposts to my own directionless witterings

and if all those dreams don't come true, you end up with different dreams - or you can get hit by a bus or die when your tour van rolls over because a dude in the band you are touring with falls asleep at the wheel

Sorry I haven't responded in a while, my friend just came home and we talked for a bit. It felt better to cry about it. I wasn't able to before. I think I will survive this.

pretty much all my dreams came true after I turned 30? get the fuck out of your twenties. they are too stressful. later days is where it's at imo

this post is where it's at

in the meantime, let me introduce you to the city colleges. there are lots of nice people there.

Okay, I'm sending you an email.

Now I'd like someone to come on and say 32 isn't old, thanks

Speaking as an officially credentialed 44 year old, I can state for the record that 32 isn't old.

Anyway, admrl's "Sometimes when everything seems broken you only need to fix one thing and the rest seems to sort itself out somehow" is the Stealth Truth Bomb of the thread.

get the fuck out of your twenties. they are too stressful. later days is where it's at imo

If I could second and third this, I would. Life didn't begin until my mid twenties and really didn't start getting crazy and fulfilling until my late twenties.

xpost to Zeno, sorry to be a dick there, I do that sometimes.

other xpost, The reason I feel depressed about my age is because I feel totally unprepared for adulthood. Not in the "oh I'm not ready to leave behind fun/hanging out with friends/etc" but because I never had that in the first place. I spent all of high school with one friend, I spent my two failed years in college completely alone (to the extent that my roommate literally refused to speak to me or even have live in the same room in our one-bedroom apartment), I have spent the intervening seven goddamn years with barely any human contact except for my parents, who treated my like an idiot or a child (and happily set me up for failure again by intervening at the lowest point of my life to date and steering me toward a degree I hated because that's the only way they would help me pay for school), and said friend from high school whom I have almost nothing in common with anymore. I'm only now coming to realize how abnormal my life has been and just how deeply I withdrew from everything after the second time I was kicked out of school, I'm closing in on 30 without ever having progressed past about 15 emotionally, and I just came back from a therapist's appointment where I went over the same stuff as the therapist I had over a decade ago. Fan-fucking-tastic.

wow I don't think I've ever done a truth bomb before! I do genuinely believe that though. It's one of those things that you think can't possibly be so until you experience it. In my experience.

i'll be 39 next month and my life hasn't really begun i guess

Telephone Thing, while the situations you describe are perhaps unusual, they're not abnormal by any means.

i dunno - there are good things about one's 20s - even if those things are getting stupid mistakes out of the way so you learn from them and don't make them again (or don't make them as stupidly) when you get older and the stakes are higher. Also wearing supercute vintage clothes. Take advantage of your ability to wear them (and get them for cheap) when you are in your 20s.

got it! wrote back with my real email address and some useful info.
i am 35 and still wearing the vintage clothes i wore in my 20s. never give up!

i can wear some of them, but my size 8 leather pleated miniskirt days are over.

corey, I just wanna point out to you that 23 isn't even at the starting gate yet. I know it's rough times sometimes but seriously, you gotta take my word for this, you won't even remember 23 in about 3 years. you are just getting your feet under you. so, get them feet under you. my life did not really begin before I was 26, fwiw.

This is so true. I remember feeling the same way though -- I was seriously depressed/suicidal from about 23-26. I felt like I had no future or prospects at all, but I did end up being wrong.

me too. i have never been so happy to be wrong in my life.

i'm 27, going back to school, and kinda feel like my life is just beginning. school is cool!

You know you're right, it is. I need to stop bitching and acknowledge this.

If there's any benefit to getting older, it's the realization that you don't need to justify yourself to anyone. I still make bad decisions and feel like I haven't gotten my life together, but I have gotten pretty good at handling things, digging myself out, and just being flexible. On the other hand I'm just as curious and iconoclastic now as I was 20 years ago (if not more so).

TS: going through the emotional wringer of trying to figure yourself out in your 20s vs. being in your 40s and surrounded by folks who complain about being old and missing the person they were in their 20s.

one of the weird and great things about life is that you can find fulfillment and happiness at almost any time at almost any age, one of the unfortunate things is that it requires a lot of effort, but its really really worth it

you can't afford not to go college

oh God, Corey, i wish i knew what to tell you. except that 23 (that is your age, right?) is wayyyy too young to just give up. it may seem hopeless, and my answer may seem glib, but i so wish that i had the problems i had when i was 23 right now.

anyway, and a bit off-topic: I went through this with a good friend who's 26 and thinks she's stuck in her current career path (and it's not a bad career path to be stuck on FWIW). she kept telling me, "time is running out!!" i kept telling HER, "believe me, you have PLENTY of time."

dunno if that helps you, corey and TT. but believe me, the both of you still have plenty of time left.

If there's any benefit to getting older, it's the realization that you don't need to justify yourself to anyone.

'nother truth bomb. I'm a 27 year old college graduate with a low paying job trying to figure out how the hell I'm going to pay rent (due in 9 days! fuck!) and trying to figure out if I can save money by making my own homemade ramen recipes but I got this way by doin' it my way and despite the major financial stresses I'm still a happy dude because the path I'm following is mine and it's pretty fulfilling thus far. No matter how lame consequences of irresponsible life decisions might be, what's the worst that could happen? You die on the streets? If you're considering suicide already, why not just ride that out? You won't be disappointed.

I don't want to be in my twenties at all!! No one takes you seriously! Getting older is a terrible reason to be depressed. I mean we are ALL going to die some day, there is nothing you can do about it. That is so horrifying that you should stay active and fit if it bothers you that much.

good to see this thread. may i vent for a moment? things are not good here. like eisbar, i am supposedly an atty. but i had a separation from my lawyer job in april, and there's no replacement job in sight. now i am working at a call center 6 nights/wk. i'm fortunate to have any job. but it barely pays expenses. and my cashloans run out of forebearance in two months.

i am also terribly, terribly homesick for nj/nyc. there's not money for a visit, and moving is out of the question - even if i could get my family to go along w/it, i am licensed here. there's no reciprocity for a few years. i know a few people locally, but am working nights and never get a chance to see them. the one time i got myself to a show these past few months, i sat in a corner by myself, unable to bring myself to talk to anyone.

the pressure's getting to be almost overwhelming. i went to law school to make a decent living for my family, and it turns out that i'm not making any more money, plus there's about 100 g's in student loans to pay off. i am starting to think of law school as the worst mistake i've made in a lifetime of mistakes. and i don't see a way out. just overwhelming, crippling depression.

right now, the ONLY things keeping me from taking serious steps to end it are a) my kids - i have two amazing daughters and the thought of putting them through something like that is just too much; b) if i kick it, my father-in-law gets stuck with the student loan bill; and c) the notion of death is very, very scary to me. so i stick it out. but fuck, it isn't easy.

check your e-mails, Corey and Mike :-)

But, I gotta add: it is only money. People survive not having it. People lose all of it and the rugs out from under their feet. But many of those people do manage to get back on their feet, eventually.

― ljagljana (kkvgz), Friday, May 21, 2010 8:42 AM (4 months ago) Bookmark

Any advice re. the reverse situation? (I have some money, but right this moment I have powerful doubts regarding my ability to continue earning my living.) Things may (probably will) turn out for the best in the long term, but right now all my worries are hanging over my weekend.

are you worried because you won't be working or because you hate your job passionately?

Both, actually. (I don't know for a fact that the meeting requested for Tuesday will be me getting dismissed, but....) I hate the job, but I'm afraid of pissing off the agency that placed me there.

is this a job that you could relatively easy find another one of again? i mean, are you a bee surgeon or in IT or something?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic btw -- just asking questions :)

(Thanks for responding--around ILX I seem to be Tha Threadkilla.) I work for a specialized temp agency. I'm also on the rolls of two competing agencies, and there are other agencies in this market, but right now I'm in the depths of depression and fear, and thus am mindful of the several months of underemployment that preceded this assignment. For that matter I have one solid and several less-solid reasons why the job is a bad fit for me, but....

I'm just thinking that maybe this could be a very exciting time for you rather than a time when you are thinking about suicide. i mean, for real. i am kind of an optimist and even cornily so, but i'm not stupid and i'm not even that far beyond pragmatic on the general spectrum. i just like to look for potential bright spots and this sort of sounds like one to me.

i also realize that i am an internet stranger who doesn't know anything close to the whole story, so please disregard if i am way off base here

just shooting for the stars

No, no, thanks for responding. Just this morning I was feeling positively cheerful as I was walking in a park. Then I get home from my vacation and find that e-mail re. Tuesday, and....

Oh man, you're totally gonna be ok. You knew it! You know it.

( i am really tired and gotta sleep, but i hope that you feel better and i know that you will!)

fuck suicide but.

i think about it all the time.

life sucks.

it really does.

u know when yesterday u were all 'please can my friends stop dying' well imagine other ppl thinking that abt u - us included :)

fortitude, unity and all that

LJ otm. I think about it all the time, too, but when I imagine how that would make my mom feel I get really mad at myself for even letting it enter my mind.

table, I hope you aren't trying to blot out the pain, because that right there will kill you sure as shit. you have to make a place for it. you can't uninvite it. it's part of you.

Hi dere.

Ha, that's the plainest not-really-about-to-die piece of shit attention-grabbing thing ever, isn't it? Every time I've actually meant it I've not posted on message boards about it. Right now is just the 'oh please tell me how great I am so I don't have to do it' stage, which is bullshit on so many levels not least of which is the fact that I'm not a nice person at all and probably deserve to die horribly and painfully.

best advice I can give is talk it out with someone (strangers on the internet are perfect for this), and wait it out. it will at least eventually get interesting, if not better.

Seriousy, I cannot imagine anything better than this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_cyanide

emil.y what's up? you are a smart and cool poster and I always delight in finding one of your posts, like finding $5 in a pair of jeans you haven't worn in forever.

Oh, it's always been like this, I just usually don't post drunk enough to wave my arms about going 'look at me! Depressed horrible person over here!'. Which, you know, is only a good thing.

I can't honestly believe that anyone has noticed my posts over the entire 10 years I've been posting, tbh.

you always have intelligent & insightful things to say on philosophy and crit theory threads - also grad school threads - sorry if this sounds stalkerish

Ha, I never thought anything I said was particularly useful - I'm one of those shit-but-usually-right philosophers that take the middle ground and thus never get into arguments. (Although this is probably not true and I end up getting into many more arguments than I intend.)

Going back to the topic of the thread, anyway, the main fact is, as I said above, I know this isn't IT, because if it was I wouldn't even mention it, I'd just try to stop everything (and probably fail again for like the millionth time). What I have now just feels very similar to it. But similar is enough, and it suffocates me.

Ugh.

On the other hand, if not now, when?

sleep on it

you'll probably wake up a little further from the abyss

emil.y, don't. OK? you're not a horrible person.

emil.y -- i'm a worse person, and i'm planning on staying alive. you should do the same.

That's all very well and good, but what if every singly day is a sequence of moving closer and further to and from the abyss? Wouldn't you just get sick of it? Wouldn't you just want a resolution one way or another?

xxpost

Neither of you know how horrible or otherwise I am! I'm pretty terrible.

I mean, the only reason why I'm posting and not actually carrying out the act is so people can convince me not to. This is the way that all the people who I hated because they got help acted while I ended up hospitalised and given no help because I was too 'odd'. I guess this is progress?

That's all very well and good, but what if every singly day is a sequence of moving closer and further to and from the abyss? Wouldn't you just get sick of it? Wouldn't you just want a resolution one way or another?

i dunno - that's just a way, a fairly reductive way, of describing life though. it's moving closer and retreating from the abyss, pushing the rock up the hill and watching it roll down over and over again. but there are things you experience in the process of doing this that are enjoyable and meaningful, even if they're kinda dumb trivial things.

You are obviously correct. But.... why? Why bother? What is it that should keep me here, feeling so bad, always so horrible? Do I owe the deity of life something?

because death is kinda boring? like, you just get one chance at being you? also, presumably you have people irl - not internet strangers like me - that care about you and appreciate your existence, even if it sometimes seems like they're idiots for doing so, or are maybe just humoring you.

I mean, there really isn't anything better I could be doing with my life other than ending it. I have nothing to give this world.

you just get one chance at being you?

I feel like I ran this through by my mid-twenties. I did myself, I know exactly who I am, which is one of the reasons why people don't like me that much - I'm very moral and very loyal, to myself as much as anyone.

you shouldn't think of it so expansively -- because that's demoralizing -- it may sound selfish and arrogant, but think about what this world has to give you

i'm not sure how old you are, but my mid-20s were a decade ago, and sometimes I find it hard to reconcile myself with who I was then -- and I dunno if it's so much that you really change, but you frame that self-knowledge differently ... i dunno, maybe you are far more precocious than i am.

hey emil.y,

I don't know you or know anything about you but I want you to know that I want you to stay alive. I really do. Not because I want you to keep experiencing pain, because I don't, but because I believe that it is possible to continue living without pain consuming you. There is help out there. Not just people who will diagnose you and hospitalize you and make you miserable, but people who have had similar experiences to you who want you to be alive and feel better. And I promise you that somewhere out there is a mental health professional who you will be able to stand talking to and who will help you figure out what it is you need to do to start feeling better. There is help, stay with us.

There is nothing life can give me that wouldn't be better than it having never given me anything.

I think my grammar might have een forsaken me. Which is pretty bad for someone like me.

xp - how's that?

i mean, so far, all you've demonstrated to me is positive qualities: moral, loyal, diplomatic ...

hope you feel better, emily. once it's over, it's over. you won't even get the chance to regret it.

* even. Jesus. i am clearly not on top of this.

xpost how? In the most obvious of ways - nothing would be this bad if existence had never happened.

I think about the myth of silenus all the time too, emil.y. but here we are, and on we go.

I can't honestly believe that anyone has noticed my posts over the entire 10 years I've been posting, tbh.

not true, tbh

once it's over, it's over. you won't even get the chance to regret it.

I don't know how this was meant, but... it's always been the most comforting thing to me... the idea that one cannot even reget it, because once you're gone, there is no regret.

yeah, but it's not universally, consistently bad is the thing. like, sometimes it hurts and sucks worse than non-existence (i forget the robert ashley lyric this reminds me of something about "preferring" and "non-state") ...but it's often better.

plus who knows maybe the reincarnationists were right and you'd just go right back into the womb

maybe you'd end up as a truly horrible person, like a pedophile or an abuser of puppies

or a neverending stream of $1 goldfish that die and get flushed down the toilet once a month or so

I guess I never shrugged off my teenage existentialism. Even when things aren't so bad I still want to be rid of existence. Don't think I can ever get over what my mind does to myself.

And ha, I would probably rather be a repeated goldfish than a repeated teenage miserablist. All of ours were called Sam, I believe.

(goldfish, not existentialists)

really? i dunno. i think i'd rather a pathetic miserable teenager than a one dollar goldfish. At least, as a teenager i could read and listen to Joy Division and Bauhaus and go for walks in the hills and smoke cigarettes.

Ha, you shouldn't encourage me (I'm not actually a teenager, btw).

I do feel I should say thanks to silby, because that is actually one of the most understanding posts in knowing that I wouldn't want to go to any of those assholes who have called themselves professional. I have been threatened with being sectioned before, and it feels so unjustified - why? Because you're sad. Oh, thus I an crazy, right?

in America they just give you pills most of the time

I am also very sorry for clogging up this thread with my neuroses... I promise that when I kill myself no ilxors will know about it beforehand.

xpost!

i am sorry for sounding like my mother, but, you shouldn't say that! And you shouldn't kill yourself -- unless maybe you've committed some atrocity, like crimes against humanity type stuff.

afaik emil.y was never a member of the dave matthews band