handbags at highbury!

They're having a go at each other as well, Giggs told Gary Neville to eff off

Also thank god for Graham Poll, second best ref going right now?

Cole should have been booked for diving in the first few minutes.

With Poll not cautioning Hienze in the first few minutes he knew what he was up against and wanted to hold back the cards for things like Rooney and Pires idiocy. ManU got theres back when he let Pires penalty go (probably hard to see from his angle).

Keane was hilarious in the tunnel, shouting after Viera (this is from memory) "let's see who's the big man, I'll see you out there, see you out there you [muffled by Sky]"

Graham Poll turns up, coming up to Keane's chest and the psychotic Irishman manages to blurt out "he should learn to keep his fucking mouth shut" before the Sky censors canm get their muffling in

Hilarious

Gary Neville is producing a quintessential display, whinging like a trooper, Dot Coton in Excelsis.

And, did Rooney really get booked for implying that Pires' facial hair is a bit rub?

No he didn't but between kicking the ball away and that action (with all those lovely antiracism posters around) he should have been.

(What a freaking match!!)

Carrol ain't much better either

"they're trying to find a pass through the needle in a haystack"

Ken, what the hell are you talking about?

but there was some - pirez's nose looked a mess

I have no affection for either ManU or Arsenal (or Chelsea for that matter) but it was decided amongst my fellow pubwatchers that it was best that Man U won as they are probably the most likely to mount a serious challenge, and would be worthier winners of the Premiership than Chelsea as they won't have just bought their way to the title.

Best game I've seen for a while though. Stevem, you should have gone out to watch it.

Can anyone confirm or deny that Wenger refused to shake Ferguson's hand at the end of that?

Alan Green was a twat on 606 afterwards, devoting pretty much his entire phone-in show to ranting about the behaviour of the players rather than any of the several positive aspects of the game whatsoever.

That was some game, though. Very satisfying to see those poor losers pwned in their pwn ground. (Strangely, they were better losers this time around, though).

But does anyone else think Rooney might just simply implode one day? I love that we have both him and Ronnie, but -- fu-u-uuuck! -- they're both so fragile (mentally).

(I always find it weirdly cute when ILX tries to talk footy.)

Man U hardly got Rooney, Ferdinand, Ronaldo etc on frees now did they.

Don't you just know that Man U and the Arse are going to meet in the Champions League now.

Keane was great last night, seeing him just charging in there, getting the ball, releasing it up to Giggs for the second Ronaldo goal within seconds reminded me how good he actually is when at his best.

The difference between Chelsea and Man Utd is not that one is buying its way to the title when the other one isn't, its that Chelsea have bought far more wisely. If you overlook the madness of the early Abramovich days (Veron, Mutu and Crespo essentially) they have failed to make a bad signing and have covered positions where they know they could be exposed.

Ferguson, on the other hand, has:

- Signed Kleberson, Miller and Djemba Djemba, all of whom have failed to make an impact leaving Ferguson to play various cobbled-together midfields of players playing out of position whenever Keane-Scholes-Giggs are unavailable.

- Failed to get any decent cover at centre back. Wes Brown is okay but hardly the perfect long-term partner for Ferdinand and Silvestre is a liability. Also, not buying a defender when he knew full well Ferdinand was out for the whole of last season.

- Still not sorted out his goalkeeping problem

- Overloaded on, admittedly fantastic, expensive strikers instead of solving the above problems. And £12m for Saha still makes me laugh when Spurs got Defoe for £6m plus Bobby Zamora.

In short, Ferguson can go on banging on about Chelsea's millions however much he wants but Man U are hardly paupers themselves and it only serves to distract from his own poor decisions.

Ha, probably. If Arsenal get past Bayern (a big if). I think United might just edge Milan, though, since the latter are going through a bizarre and timely (for us!) rough patch, but I don't ever think of United "buying their way to the title". That money, as fucked up as the whole PLC thing is, was earned. They attracted a huge fanbase via a compelling history, and as dire as they've been results-wise in the past (the 70s and 80s weren't good to United), they've always tried to play an attacking style of football. The love for United in (parts of ) Manchester is fierce. My own Manc roots are certainly proud that way. I'm not quite old enough to remember the Holy Trinity (Best, Charlton, Law), but I have seen Best play since, and the adornment of these legendary players does attract both supporters and sponsors. It becomes a self-sustaining thing, with the likes of Robson, Hughes, Ince, Cantona, Schmikes, etc., becoming bone fide legends. It's not like United are even careful with their money. They just sold Djemba-Djemba at a nearly £2 million loss, and they sold Beckham for waaayyy less than they could have. Forlan was sold after a couple of seasons and he's like second highest scorer in the Primera Liga right now! They also splashed a lot more on Ronaldo (£12 million) and Rooney (almost £30 million) than they really needed to (considering they were both teenagers), etc. In fact, despite their image as a shrewd market-driven club, I've always seen the United board as a bit clueless and out of step with the bulk of the fans (cf. Robben, Ronaldinho, etc.).

(Oh, and as for Ferdinand -- Leeds has always been our feeder club, ha ha.)

Also the signings of Djemba Djemba, Kleberson and Bellion were made at the same time as Chelsea signed Veron, Mutu, etc. You could just as easily turn your argument on its head and say 'Chelsea have wasted a fortune on people like Veron and Mutu, whereas United, apart from a crazy spell in 2003, have signed quality like Smith, Heinze and Rooney'.

(xpost)

Heinze is a psychopath. I love him. It's not just that he smiles, it's that he full-on laughs after a particularly brutal tackle. Whether he's the donor or the recipient! Ha ha.

yours,

Jose

Arsenal were, as I've banged on repeatedly, shown to be very brittle indeed. And the hunger from the United team was amazing. It might be cliched, but they resembled Ferguson in his mad psychotic will to win mode, as much as Arsenal resembled Wenger who seems incresingly on the edge of losing his cool. The Govan brusier against the cerebral Stasbourgian - like watching a bar fight between a drunken slurring idiot and a middle-class teacher who accidentally spills the bruiser's drink and finds that his apologies count for nothing.

United seemed to have an almost lower-league mentality - they know that Arsenal are probably player for player better then them (ie, Arsenal's best squad has 2-3 better players than UNited's best) but they fought and scrapped.

Cole's dive was one of the worst I've seen - so early, so clear, so rubbish. He should be slung out of the cheaters union, should one exist. Brian Barwick made a seemingly non-contentious statement about despising simulation, and in the way football bites you on the arse, now has an issue on his desk on day 2. Pity the man.

Heinze is Stuart Pearce with better distribution. I like him a lot - the perfect Argentinian defender.

As for the rest of the season - even if United beat Chelsea and Arsenal beat them, that's still a 5 point gap. The draws UNited had against Fulham and Tottenham could really cost them - they'd be 4 behind if that were the case. I've thought United were the team to push Chelsea this season once they got in their stride, but 8 points is just too much I think. In retrospect, the crappy hype over the Arsenal-Man Utd game in October was meaningless - the most important game could have been the opener when Chelsea beat United - I think that 6-pointer will be the difference at the end.

i think arsenal may re-group impressively next year. this year - they are finished. only 2 points behind united, but i still think they have zero chance of coming second - united's tails are up, arsenal lack character in situations where they are trailing or the opposition aren't terrified of them (hence their poor performance in europe last season, when their premiership performance was outstanding against teams who are cowed and intimidated by the henry and co.s brilliance). but i think a summer's hurt should get them back on track, as it did prior to their unbeaten season (plus a new goalie and centre-half, i think).

are chelsea due a blip, even a minor one? is there still some drama left in the title race? i sometimes think there *must* be, but i look through the fixture list and i don't see chelsea dropping 11 points.

Two funny ideas: "the cheaters union" and "Jack Nicholson in the Shining"!

Still, could you imagine how violent that game could have got with Van Nistelrooy fit and playing? Blimey.

xpost, oh, right, sorry. Yeah, they've taken that attitude to Arsenal the last few crucial games against them -- the Cup game last season, at OT this season and last night. But it's not just against Arsenal. Usually, whenever United have a big game against a very good team, they play with that level of commitment-bordering-on-madness. Ironically, the year they won the Champions League, they completely forgot to play that way against Bayern in the Final and almost blew it (unlike against Juve that season, in Turin).

Fucking great game. I loved it. Best moment - when Gary Neville rushes over to abuse the ref, who immediately says "shut up or you're off" to which his eyes widen, he puts his hands up, backs away and prevents team mates from having a go. Graham Poll was superb last night, missed penalty (which was certainly forgiveable) excepting.

Poll was surprisingly good, I agree.

(Xpost:

Dave C = Dr. C, innit?

Ha ha!)

Alright, this post is funny.

As for effective teams, I have to say the United for 1999-2000 were amazing. When they had Cole and Yorke and Beckham, Keane in his prime, Scholes regularly brilliant, Stam very impressive etc. Christ, they used to score from clearing corners in their own half; the only way to stop them scoring was to not let them have the ball.

Quite. IF we stay clear of injuries the title's ours, but we have a lot of games to play in various cups. The 'big squad' thing is a myth really. What if Terry, Frank L, and a couple of strikers were injured and out for key games? We have little cover at centre-back with Carvalho injured - in fact it's only Huth. If say Drogba and Eidar were out we're down to Kezman as the focal point of the attack - and he's pretty useless. I suppose one of the wingers could go up front, but it would change a winning pattern and I wouldn't fancy it. In midfield we should be OK - he seems to be going for Frank, Makka and one of Tiago/Smertin/Cole. We have the new geezer from Czechoslovakia or somewhere + the wretched Geremi as cover and I suppose Scott Parker will be fit soon.

I can't see us losing it, but a blip is still possible. I have seen to much disappointment in 34 years of supporting CFC to get the champagne ready!

now we're getting that thing were teams turn up and expect to lose - they don't even pretend to hide it. it's something arsenal and man u have experienced for years, but it's strange. on sunday, birmingham just didn't want to be there.

huth is out for 6-8 weeks but carvalho is back soon. that giant russian (Dolph Lundgren?) can play centre-back i think.

As said here before, I am uncomfortable with the Abramovic scenario and particularly like my club being used as a way of laundering money. The post-Abramovic years could be uncomfortable, but it's almost worth the risk to see us stuffing Man U and The Arse this year.

Well hey, if you're not complaining! ;-)

Thanks, Ned. (Proof that Ned proof reads every thread on ILX!)

i guess they hear them in the tunnels every week, and already know the words from the playground

There aren't a huge number of other teams doing that at the moment - Liverpool are doing okay in that department, there are a fair few coming through the lower teams in the league (although tough shit if you're at a club like Bolton). Has the romantic ideal of a John Terry coming through the ranks and then captaining his team in Europe all but gone? Or have Premiership clubs more or less given up on it and are all doing a Tottenham, ie accepting that a season or two at West Ham or Derby is better than sitting in the reserves at White Hart Lane?

ailsa otm. i am a man u fan, but i must say: even when we were producing the likes of scholes, becks, butt nevilles etc - we spent big money to fill the rest of the gaps. at every stage of united's career, there were some big money signings (3.75 for keane may not seem much now, for instance, but it was a brit record at the time). we have had the luxury of splashing out on flops like veron and still having enough to cover other areas. cole, yorke, stam, ferdinand, ronaldo, rooney - these all cost big money.

what i mean is - united's financial situation during the ferguson era always gave them a headstart above the majority of premiership teams. ferguson did a terrific job - regardless of how much financial help he got - he is an incredibly great manager. but it's ridiculous that ppl complain about *one* team having a financial superiority to man u, when we've had it over the majority of the league, for the entirety of our most successful period.

so, i grudgingly give props to abramovich, his gigantic wallet, his excellent choice of manager, and his refusal to involve himself in footballing affairs. a smart man.

what did his work at chelsea involve beside throwing lots of money at the club? and finding (through people he hired), in mourinho,someone who knew what to do with it.

Fast forward a few years, the oligarchs are not popular in Russia, seeing as having robbed the country etc etc. Putin is under pressure to deal with them, but seems to have struck a deal with Abramovich that as long as he stays out of politics he will be left alone. Still, Abramovich is funnelling vast amounts of money out the country and into Chelsea.

Also, by becoming Mr Stamford Bridge, he is also the world's most famous Russian and therefore well-placed for any future political career.

(Disclaimer - may not all be true. If I suddenly stop posting, avenge my death)

There were also details of this court case:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2005/01/17/003.html

That's why I've always thought he bought Chelsea. I didn't think that show uncovered anything that wasn't in the public domain (so RA's money is owned by shell companies based in Cyprus? So what?)

Back to football: the best thing about Chelsea is undoubtedly Mourinho - if Ranieri had this squad we'd probably be a couple of points behind Man U, with the challenge already fading. Mourinho has made all the difference and, like Ferguson and Wenger, proves a good manager is what really makes the difference. His gesture last night of making the players throw their shirts to the crowd has cemented his legend.

For reasons noted above thread I doubt his investment in Chelsea can be regarded as "laundering" - the money was got in a dubious way but with the collusion of the Russian government and I doubt he's under any legal threat. I can see the argument that owning Chelsea makes him a bit more high profile and adds a bit of protection but if he threatened to become a genuine political embarrassment to the Russian government (eg by deciding confession was good for the soul) I doubt it'd help him much.

It seems to me there's much hypocrisy about Abramovich. Many Englishmen who could have watched documentaries about corrupt Russians enriching themselves at the expense of the people with complete equanimity have discovered a marvellous sense of outrage now that a tiny fraction of the cash has been pumped into a rival football club. So convenient to pretend that their real objection isn't to how he's using the cash, but the immoral way he got it. When in fact as long as he'd restricted his spending to yachts and private jets they'd never have given a damn.

Well, to some extent, in the near future, you might have to.