A Raging Office Debate: One Space or Two after a period?

How can this be? Yes, for years, you have been told to insert two spaces after periods, and on a typewriter you should. However, a computer with a word processing program is no typewriter!

On a typewriter all characters are monospaced, that is, they each take up the same amount of space. For example, the letter i occupies as much space as the letter m. Because the characters are monospaced, you must insert two spaces after periods to separate one sentence from the next. Frankly, your eye needs the “white space” to make reading easier, to help you distinguish one sentence from the next. Reading is made easier by variability of space. Monospacing results in no variability of space while two spaces adds variability.

On a computer, whether you are using a Macintosh or a Microsoft Windows computer, all characters are proportionally spaced. The only exceptions are the fonts Courier and Monaco. Proportional spacing means that each character only occupies the amount of space that it needs; and that space is proportional to the space occupied by other characters. For example, the letter i only occupies about one-fifth of the space occupied by the letter m. Consequently, the need for two spaces after punctuation to add “white space” to make reading easier becomes a moot point. It simply is no longer necessary.

Take a look at this example:

Notice in this paragraph how the letters line up in columns, one under the other, just as on your typewriter. This is because each character takes up the same amount of space. This monospacing is what makes it necessary to use two spaces to separate sentences.

This paragraph, however, uses a font with proportional spacing. Each character takes up a proportional amount of the space available. Thus the single space between sentences is enough to visually separate them, and two spaces creates a disturbing gap.

If you still are doubtful, try this: Type the sentences above in your favorite word processor. Type the first paragraph in Courier. Then type the second in another font, say Times New Roman or Bookman.

Of course, this one-space rule applies just as well to the spacing after colons, semicolons, question marks, quotation marks, exclamation points, or any other punctuation you can imagine. Yes, this is a difficult habit to break, but it must be done.

Take a look at any magazine or book on your shelf. You will never find two spaces between sentences!

How many spaces should I leave after a period or other concluding mark of punctuation?
Publications in the United States today usually have the same spacing after a punctuation mark as between words on the same line. Since word processors make available the same fonts used by typesetters for printed works, many writers, influenced by the look of typeset publications, now leave only one space after a concluding punctuation mark. In addition, most publishers' guidelines for preparing a manuscript on disk ask authors to type only the spaces that are to appear in print.

Because it is increasingly common for papers and manuscripts to be prepared with a single space after all punctuation marks, this spacing is shown in the examples in the MLA Handbook and the MLA Style Manual. As a practical matter, however, there is nothing wrong with using two spaces after concluding punctuation marks unless an instructor or editor requests that you do otherwise.

Sorry, kisses and all that, but it's not a matter of opinion.

You can.

They're smarter than that. Use one space, always, and unless you're using a monospaced font, the computer fills in the extra space that should come after the period on its own.

somebody here says the MLA Handbook asks for two spaces, or used to

Forty years ago!

I don't write for any magazines, nor do I write by MLA standards. If someone wants me to, I'd be happy to oblige with 1 space after periods. Until then, I am sticking with what looks right to me. I have more dead typographers on my side of this debate, and that's what really counts, no?

crossposts

But truly, for print of any kind, even on the web, it's one space. Always. Everywhere.

I think that MLA guideline seems good: One if it's official and to be submitted somewhere, two if you're writing a txt msg to your neice.

crosspost

(xpost)

A-fucking-men.

LaTeX makes you handle this on your own. Seems difficult to automate.

OTM OTM OTM OTM THERE IS NO REASON FOR IT IT'S NOT EVEN NECESSARY WITH MONOSPACE FONTS AND IT LOOKS GROSS

but txt msg have a text length limit. if there's one place to not use two spaces surely it's txting.

Kinda-sorta. Professors have only been telling students to write their papers with one space for a short time. Book printers have been on the on-space tip for a looooong time. I doubt I could find a book that uses two spaces after a period.

ONE.

ONE.

ONE.

"In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflammatory period in typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth-century typists were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar twice after every period. Your typing as well as your typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint Victorian habit. As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a period, a color or any other mark of punctuation. Large spaces (e.g. en spaces) are themselves punctuation."

Quaint! Victorian! I love it!

copyediting? Yeah... what a crazy, mixed-up world.

Professors will tell you a lot of things that are unnecessarily absolute, like "Don't end with a preposition" or "Don't split infinitives," or thoroughly wrong, like "I'm not a moron."

I have always read the 2 space rule was a leftover from typewriters, that in modern print it is not neccesary. Have read several style manuals and grammarian's essays that say this. I never got taught oldschool typing so I'm lucky.

Now I've got a question for you: Capitals after colons or not? This debate could rip my office apart.

I still say one space. I learned two in middle school and unlearned two in college.

I fucking hate capitals after colons. When I taught English my kids all seemed to do this. I was taught not to do that--makes about as much sense as capitalizing after a semicolon, i.e. none to me.

(cf. the anal sex thread)

In the case of lists, I use lowercase:

"I like my coffee like I like my women: dark, bitter, and murky."

trayce, I think you read me wrong.

you're right: I do not believe in capitalization, hah.

I do, however, believe in capitalisation but not mandatory capitalisation.

I've seen this type of structure handled with a semicolon/lowercase, but I've also seen it handled with colon/uppercase, as I use it. Admittedly, my usage is purely a matter of personal aesthetic. I just like how it looks.

I do, however, believe in capitalisation

Are you laughing because you think I misspelled "capitalization"? Look it up.

Here - I will type six spaces. I bet it only puts one when I submit this.

;)

It appears APA says one space after sentence terminators, MLA says two but one is acceptable.

-- Mr Noodles , April 15th, 2004 8:07 PM

Bad grammer and all.

Is this the time when we help each other up, wipe off the blood, and buy each other a beer?

I guess it just ends up being about what you know is correct and what I know is correct.

trayce, this time, the "extraneous"???etc. post was an overreaction joke. no problem.

crossposts

Why wouldn't this be two sentences? I think of colons as separating independent clauses that aren't really independent -- they complete each other's thought, so to speak.

(Note: I am not trying to pick a fight.)

It's a poetic construct. It's a pretty common technique used to enhance two sentences that are thematically parallel or opposed.

I overuse it, but hey, it gets me through the day.

It appears APA says one space after sentence terminators, MLA says two but one is acceptable.

MLA says one but two is acceptable.

http://www.mla.org/publications/style/style_faq/style_faq3

*shakes hands*

-- Mr Noodles , April 15th, 2004 8:23 AM

Wow, does that link look familar though. :)

STRUNK & WHITE IN THE HOUSE! Re: the colon debate.

Ok, so, you've read the page, I take it.

MLA says two but one is acceptable.

No! You haven't read the page at all! What a sneaky trick. You're clever.

Because it wasn't the standard as recently as 5 years ago? WTF is so hard to understand about this? The version of the MLA Handbook that I personally own DOES NOT SAY ONE SPACE IS CORRECT AND IN FACT KIND OF JUST TEETER TOTTERS ON THE SUBJECT LIKE A DAMN FOOL and it's from a class I was in two years ago!

Also cutty you are in college. You should know better than this. Extra spaces=extra length in your paper. WTF is wrong with you. I love you but dude you're ruining it for everyone else.

IF U R WRITING FOR A PUBLICATION PURPOSEE SUCH AS TEH BOOKS OR TEH MAGAZINES, THEN U USE ONLY ONE (1) SPACE CUZ PAGINATION PROGRAMS USED IN THESE PROCESSES CAN BE A RILLY BIG BITCH TO EDIT AROUND AND WILL MAKE DOUBLE SPACES LOOK LIKE CAVERNOUS VAGINAS ON THE PAGE.

IF U R WRITING FOR A SCHOOL PURPOSE THEN U BEST BE PUTTING IN DOUBLE SPACES SON COS THE REST OF US R DOING IT TO GET THAT TINY BIT OF EXTRA "WIDTH" TO OUR STACK OF PAPERS, U UNDERSTAND FULLY.

IF U R WRITING A TXTMSG AND U EVEN SPELL ANYTHING RIGHT U SHOULD DIE.

IF U R VAL KILMER I STILL DON'T KNOW WHERE YR CAR IS DUDE, BUT U RULE OVER TOM CRUISE THAT'S FOR SURE

i'm not in college. i'm in law school. i'm 26.

Please expand on this. InDesign and QuarkXPress both have search/replace functions, and for layout, what else would you be using?

(Someone actually emailed me a Publisher file the other day. I had to regress back into the womb to open it.)

48pt body text
decaple line spacing
quit school, join the marines

THEY DIDN'T WORK

-- cutty

QED. Thank you, Cutty.

our law school style guide says 12 pt tnr or arial with 1.5 spacing and 2.5cm margins. also it recommends 2 spaces after full stops. i often use arial narrow if there is a 'page limit' rather than a 'word limit' because you can fit more words in.

A new advertiser called me today for specs and accepted formats; like a lot of people, she uses Publisher. Fortunately, they're getting better at figuring out how to create a press-ready PDF.

Standards make the world go round.

does this tag work on ILX?  This is how dumb you look to the rest of us.
Stop it.  Stop it now.  You're all fired.  Do you understand?  THERE CAN
BE ONLY ONE.

not you or kenan ha ha!  that's funny.

not least on their fucking dullard's sense of humor and ugly faces!

whoooo! fucking <pre> tags.  I never thought of them.  Now I can make everything look like a goddamn screenplay

no

I do! I just want RJG to admit that it's not a matter of taste.

: D

xpost roffles

Other things I learned: en dashes are bewdiful & highly addictive; punctuation always remains Roman, even if the whole paragraph is Bold; proof-reading symbols are kewl; recto = even, verso = odd.

I say Chicago Manual Of Style is OTM re: capitalizing after colons, ie only when it is followed by a direct quote or more than one sentence.

Though sometimes this doesn't work out so well in practice; one time I had a professor write next to a line on my paper "IT WAS AN ENORMOUS" and circled something like ten times in red, and I really to this day have no idea what he was talking about.

Kyle: "This dyke bitch I know, started taking testosterone. Does she think itl'l help her grow a dick."

Ben: "May be it'll make she a better driver?"

Only it's a typographical pissing contest, which makes it that much more amazing.

xpost

Kyle: "This dyke bitch I know has started taking testosterone.http://www.wwhitman.com/images/whitespace.jpghttp://www.wwhitman.com/images/whitespace.jpgDoes she think it'll help her grow one dick?"

Ben: "Maybe it'll make her a better driver."

And if you make sure none of your sentences are more than one line long, you get double-spacing for free!

Yeah, I mean I vaguely remember in school (in the same school system as Oops!) learning that it was more "proper" or whatever to put two spaces after a period, but that always seemed dumb to me. It didn't look any more readable, and it was fucking annoying to have to remember to press the space bar twice. (Before I ever learned that "rule," I'd been typing with one space for years.) So I just ignored it, and nobody seemed to comment on it either way.

If it is a sentence fragment: lower case.

I much prefer to use lower case in most cases after a colon: except for those instances spelled out by Chicago, direct quote, etc.

But force of habit now makes me look at those poor lower cased complete sentences following the colon: And I want to change them.

Don't you get it, doltish ones, that's to mark the longer pause after the more serious punctuation marks?

I think this theory favors two spaces after colons because what comes after is often an explication, which is given greater weight by a significant pause.

-- Curious George Rides a Republican (crump...), March 9th, 2005 3:12 PM. (Rock Hardy)

Wow, its like I'm invisible or something. I did mention this about six pages ago didn't I?

2. war on terror

3. war on what some think is an extra space after a full stop

Because, as was said before, HTML automatically strips out the extra space.

I turn all that crap off usually.

Also, I've never been able to get a good handle on semicolon usage, mainly coz I want sentence fragments to do more work than they should and I don't understand the purpose of ever conjoining complete sentences. Grammatically, fragments are out always, so there's no rule if the subject or object of the part pre-semicolon becomes the subject of the part post- and just going with what "works" doesn't cut it.

I've started to use them for comma deliminated lists tho, when the lists are complex enuf to need commas (or "and"s) within items. I like this quite a bit.

Well, okay, by my standard it's not good for anything. But a lot of employers request Word ducuments, so I've learned to make things all fancy using Word.

Can't believe anyone born after 1950 is still using two spaces. Got two emails like this today from people my age.

It's like they don't read books, newspapers or magazines.

Or the web.

depends on the context of the media. One space looks horrible on ILX, for instance.

― Aaron A., Tuesday, March 8, 2005 11:29 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

AARON A. was either using a dumb stylesheet or was just dumb, or both, PS caek OTM

Can't believe anyone born after 1950 is still using two spaces. Got two emails like this today from people my age.

― caek, Monday, December 28, 2009 11:36 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Who would even read the memo that tells people not to put two spaces after a period? How fucking into fonts would you have to be to even learn that?

SaveATree:UseNoSpaces

xp. i mean that, until today, i wasn't even aware two spaces had been taught in schools since the 1950s (certainly wasn't in my school). i'm not suggesting people read my memos.

It was certainly standard practice in schools through the early 1990s.

aside from consistency, I've never given a damn.

but even if you're not "into fonts" (i think you mean "into literacy"), it's a bit surprising to me that these people haven't noticed they don't see two spaces in print or on displays anywhere.

I was taught to use two spaces. Always thought of it as one of those personal pref. non-rules like how to treat "..." that are all just aesthetic/typographical choices.

Basically what Morbius said.

Never realized there were people who didn't use two spaces! But looking at the last 20 e-mails I got, only three had double spaces after periods and they were from my wife, my mom, and my dad. So maybe my family is hoisting the pennant alone on this one.

Never realized there were people who didn't use two spaces!

This is a joke, right?

I knew that there were people who didn't use two spaces; I just figured they missed that day in school. I've added those spaces to people whose papers I've proofread.

This is a joke, right?

Why would you think that? As lots of people have testified, lots of people who took typing in high school (in the late 1980s, in my case)were taught to do this. I just assumed everybody did it.

i was taught to use two spaces when i first learnt to type in secondary school (in the 1990s!) and had to unlearn the habit.

I've had to fill in forms that require two spaces after a full stop so stringently that they'll send them back if you've used a single space.

it's a typing rule, not a word-processing one; properly typeset work has slightly larger spaces after periods; this happens anyway on most w-p/font combinations because there's some empty space on the period character

I knew that there were people who didn't use two spaces; I just figured they missed that day in school. I've added those spaces to people whose papers I've proofread.

aaargh so many times i've had to edit those extraneous spaces out

ha ok all of this was covered four years ago

xpost lex (and the other guy who was doing it) -- please don't mean you're manually doing it to every space

find and replace ## with #!

er, don't type the #

I learned two spaces when I learned to type on a typewriter, and I've never really seen the need to unlearn it because, apart from on here, I tend not to foist my typing onto pedants.

aaargh so many times i've had to edit those extraneous spaces out

Why?

I am unduly proud of myself for not having taken a part in this thread until now.

i had a supervisor tell me to use two spaces once and i couldn't convince her she was wrong. old ppl!

Two spaces is completely unlike anything seen in printed media or the web. For good reason, if anyone's interested, but that's not the point. The point is that if you want people alive today (and therefore used to reading stuff published during the 20th and 21st centuries) to read your text comfortably and at speed, then use one space, because that's closer to what they're used to. The effect on reading speed is subconscious but measurable. And this even applies to people who use two spaces, because even they rarely see two spaces in the wild, outside their own copy of Word.

two spaces seems like something only an insane person would do

Why?

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Monday, December 28, 2009 7:48 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Too much whitespace (especially irregular whitespace) reduces readability by making the location of the next glyph further from the previous one and/or less predictable. Same reason you shouldn't use double-spacing unless you're editing (and even then...).

one space

Too little whitespace makes your text a big blocky jumble of letters that can't be neatly and rapidly sorted out into individual sentences.

that's why you have paragraphs and tabs and stuff, and text in columns

If you really want to break your sentences up then you could make them different colours?

maybe a line break after each sentence

maybe dont write at all

1 blank page after each period.

and then a big ornament between paragraphs

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2271/2391815650_5e99fb4ef3.jpg

skjfsjkdf

hieroglyphics

p.s. From the bible on this stuff (copy of which is owned by every printer/book designer i know) and is backed up by experience and testing with readers (including testing for reading speed):

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2271/2391815650_5e99fb4ef3.jpg

In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth century typists were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar twice after every period. Your typing as well as your typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint Victorian habit. As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a period, colon or any other mark of punctuation.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2271/2391815650_5e99fb4ef3.jpg

Dudes who established the HTML spec had the right idea:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2271/2391815650_5e99fb4ef3.jpg

All white space in HTML, in any combination of spaces, tabs or line breaks, is automatically collapsed to a single word space. Therefore this guideline is automatically adhered to regardless of your training as a typist.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2271/2391815650_5e99fb4ef3.jpg

skfjnjsdk

But using the SAME amount space between sentences as between words also looks bad, right? E.G. here's how TeX does it:

"TeX usually assumes that a period (the character ".") ends a sentence if it is followed by a space, or by a right parenthesis and then a space, or by other similar strings. Consequently it puts more space between a period (or the immediately following right parenthesis or similar character) and the following word than it does between one word and the next."

I can't seem to find a definitive answer to how MUCH space LaTeX puts between sentences by default, but several sources put it as 1.5 times the interword space; so in that sense the optimum (because I take it a gospel that whatever LaTeX does is optimal) is exactly halfway between single space and double space post-period. In order to get a single space after the period you have to use a special command, \frenchspacing.

i think i noticed that about latex because the sentences seem too far apart, in my opinion

you wanna go head to head with Knuth in a typesetting war, be my guest

Yeah, neither is strictly right, but for practical use (i.e. unless we add another button to the keyboard), one space is _much_ closer to what you typically see in well-flowed typeset text. iirc, the space after the end of a sentence is more elastic than the interword space in TeX, so it ends up growing to be a little larger than a single space. It certainly is a little larger than a single space in a modern paperback.

But two full spaces is just ludicrous. (Which is why it's quite hard to do in HTML, TeX, etc., etc., but unfortunately not hard to do in Word). It's especially bad in fixed width fonts like courier, where the spaces are already colossal.

i propose w/replace the period w/this guy _*_

xp, Knuth is a computer programmer and mathematician, and Computer Modern is a pretty font with great math characters, but he's not a typographer, designer or artist. TeX's layout engine does a an amazing job of for an end-user application, but its behavior is not perfect, and its problems have to be worked around by publishing houses who use it for their typesetting (very few of whom use Computer Modern), e.g. http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/microtype/.

no way man, period should be DUMPLINGS!

maybe dont write at all

― max, Monday, December 28, 2009 3:06 PM

maybe all lowercase with no punctuation

a guy can dream

(!)

maybe all lowercase with no punctuation period space space a guy can dream period

".  "

^ . ^

two-space ppl are disgusting savages imo

^^ said like a true twitterean

i like two spaces. it makes the same kind of internal sense to me that omitting closing quotation marks from the end of a paragraph of speech, when the next continues the speech, makes. a nice differentiation between commas and full stops. being surprised that people haven't adopted what they've seen in print seems curious; it seems an opportunity for uncontroversial exercising of preference, like choosing between 'single' or "double" inverted commas.

MLA, Chicago and AP style manuals all call for a single space after a period btw.

Who would even read the memo that tells people not to put two spaces after a period?

Haha, everyone who holds the position "editor" at my company!

ohman i become extra critical of text with 2 spaces after a period, can't even help it. because, i mean, yeah, i learned the two spaces rule in typing class in 1989 but unlearned it instantly in 1993 because of journalism/computers/internet logical-reality-based triple threat i mean cmon.

1993 was precisely when I was learning to do this. Sorry I didn't go to High Tech High.

For real though - I guess this thread has convinced me to get with the program and start spacing once. Only because everybody else does it, not because it increases readability for me.

I learned the two spaces rule in typing class in the late 80s but when I started using LaTeX in the mid 90s I switched to one space. Or maybe I stopped earlier b/c I was lazy and didn't want to type two spaces when one seemed adequate. As a writer my view is that the publishers should be able to/responsible for making my text look like they want it to look (said after having spent entire days in the past converting my LaTeX documents to Word---lately I've been publishing with houses that accept LaTeX, thankfully).

I was taught this in the mid-90s. I always kinda figured that single-spacers were wrong/slow/lazy. Oh well. But the I also went to a school that taucht us to write 'z' like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Z-small-VA-64x88.svg so I should have noticed we were backwards simpletons sooner than I did.

'z'like this http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Z-small-VA-64x88.svg/105px-Z-small-VA-64x88.svg.png

'z'like thishttp://i48.tinypic.com/jr41ok.png

Man, that shit was my favorite cursive. R.I.P.

Haha, everyone who holds the position "editor" at my company!

Yeah, I was gonna say, I work for a publisher of reference materials, and we adhere to the one-space rule. I think, as with HTML, additional spaces may even be stripped out by the software we use.

That's how I do a cursive 'z'

Also wtf with capital cursive 'Q'? Looks like a '2' amirite?

When I moved school I got yelled at for using that cursive 'z'. I guess they thought I was making it up. :(

u guys only little kids call it cursive

http://www.wicked-t-shirts.com/specials/img/IMG-rizzuto.gif