'envelopes' coming round for leaving work colleagues..c/d

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I've not left many jobs on the best of terms, but I had an envelope passed round when I was leaving one place to go to college. They got me a fountain pen. Ahhhh. The nice.

But call me a scrooge... I resent putting my lunch money in an envelope for someone I'm never going to see again, it should be up to the boss to buy the present and we should just need to sign the card.

Are my feelings justified?

― Rumpsy Pumpsy (Rumpie), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

shit in it.

― Chris 'The Nuts' V (Chris V), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)

Blimey. The only thing that should be in an envelope for a leaving colleague is a CARD. Not even like I've ever even had one of those! Humph!

― Masonic Cathedral (kate), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)

there was this guy who used to always put 2p in the envelope if he didn't like the person, so if they got a token or gift cheque for €30.02 they'd now the guy didn't like them.

Chris V wins, however.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

I was nasty enough once to toss in a handful of coppers (the leavee was a dick head) but I still feel bad about it. I tend to chuck in a couple of quid then stew angrily for the rest of the day.

― Rumpsy Pumpsy (Rumpie), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

We get these every couple of days - it's lwasy somebody's birthday, ro someone's having a kid, ro someone's leaving or something. I always put a quid in since I feel like a world-class git if I don't.

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:23 (twenty years ago)

DV's friend > Chris V

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:24 (twenty years ago)

what kind of git would you feel like if you put 50p in?

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

i almost never have any spare change (guv) when these come around, they only get offered out once and so therefore I am officially the stingiest muvva in the office.

― Ste (Fuzzy), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:29 (twenty years ago)

when i was out of work from my car accident my dept sent me a plant. a fucking ugly plant. the thought that counts right? well ilxors sent me BROWNIES!

Most i'll toss in one of the envelopes is $5. Every christmas time the dept gets something really nice for our boss which usually runs in the $10-20 donation range...except I stopped donating because I hate the fuck. And we get a $2.00 plastic ornament from him every year. Mercedes driving ass.

― Chris 'The Nuts' V (Chris V), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

do you call eurocents p? I would.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:31 (twenty years ago)

Yeah we need to put in for our bosses Christmas present. She's on three times the salary we are for fuck sake!

― Rumpsy Pumpsy (Rumpie), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

When I left s****buryz for the first time they gave me massive flowers, and a cuddly monkey and a huge card and a ceramic cheese dish thing. When I left the second time they gave me nothing. Ha ha.
My approach is to give money only if I honestly liked and will miss the person leaving. This makes it quite cheap for me.

― alix (alix), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

Pick a bogie out of your nose and put that in the envelope.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

most of the time, the only thing i want to give them is a slap.

however -
50p - 50p
er, an envelope - er.. not much.
booger - er free

50p with a booger on it - priceless.

xpost, obv

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

And what to write in the card? "All the Best?" natch. I'm always beaten to the best comments.

― Rumpsy Pumpsy (Rumpie), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

"Good Riddance and Good Luck"

― Chris 'The Nuts' V (Chris V), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:40 (twenty years ago)

I sign my name illegibly. It's a step up from just putting an X. And no money. I'll go out for a group lunch, maybe, if I like the person.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

ha i do the same thing!

― Chris 'The Nuts' V (Chris V), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:43 (twenty years ago)

you should put "please return my booger when you're done with it", THEN sign your name illegib... whatever.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

Johnney B is absolutely OTM. This is the bane of office life. Birthdays, departures, someone's dropping a sprog, someone's sprog is having a raffle and you feel obliged to buy tickets etc. I've a feeling that this is all a deliberate plot to make you take home even less of your salary. People actually chip in money to buy the boss a Christmas present, who is usually an absolute bastard who probably earns twice as much money for doing half as much actual work - WTF?

DUD.

― Ben Mott (Ben Mott), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:45 (twenty years ago)

hence the booger plot.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:46 (twenty years ago)

What to write in the card? Pick your nose again, and smear the bogie across the inside!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:51 (twenty years ago)

So when I get my birthday card on July 15 (didja get that date? send beer.) I'm not the least bit warmed by seeing 50 names written all over it. What a fucking waste. Get back to work, ya busybody fucks.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 11 March 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

Passing round an envelope is WAY better than the system we have in our office, where there is a set amount - £3 for birthday, £5 for a special birthday (eg. 30th), TEN QUID for maternity!!!

― Madchen (Madchen), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:00 (twenty years ago)

Fuck babies, more than anything. It's your own fault you're having a baby.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:02 (twenty years ago)

You are all complete fucking tightarses and I'm glad none of you lot work in the office I'm leaving in two weeks.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

It's all really dumb and offends my principles but the stuff they do with my taxes is even more despicable, a couple of bucks once in a while is really nothing to let yourself get bothered by.

― TOMBOT, Friday, 11 March 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

YEAH!

so what, you just give them a bunch of cash?
we don't have this kinda crap where i work. anybody with any fucking sense has a day off on their birthday.

xpost

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

Actually handing the envelope round is bad though, puts people on the spot too much. We usually keep in on a desk in a discreet part of the office and people can put in how ever much they want whenever.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

Worse than the card is when they walk round saying goodbye to everyone. The idea of having to shake hands with and make smalltalk ('so you're finally escaping then? er....all the best then') with some misery who you saw once in a corridor 7 years ago is totally unacceptable. If I see them coming I go to the bog.

The bogey idea is a good one though.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:05 (twenty years ago)

xposts

So why are you leaving?

If someone is a great person, and they're leaving to join the Peace Corps, I'll gladly chip in $50. If they're leaving because they hate this place or because they're getting more money somewhere else - well, good for them.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

Matt DC OTM with his first post here.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:11 (twenty years ago)

why would i give stuff to people i don't like?

i don't buy presents for the guy who works the till in the Co-op, i see him most days.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

Yes, because it's all about you, isn't it?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

i just don't buy stuff for people i don't like!
that's... logical.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

Do you like people you don't like?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

er... no.
huh?

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

Yes, because it's all about you, isn't it?

It's all about not coercing people into false sentiments.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:25 (twenty years ago)

It's all about looking after number one, don't you fucken look at me, who the fuck you lookin at, why does nobody talk to me, etc.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:26 (twenty years ago)

That's a huge assumption.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)

here i call temp's prerogative: it's one of the few advantages. also, having worked in a lot of diff places, it seems to vary a hell of a lot how inclusive the envelope thing is. also the rate of staff turnover is u&k.

― N_RQ, Friday, 11 March 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)

hey, people ARE talking to me for a change! so i'm lapping it up. jeez, give a guy a break.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:30 (twenty years ago)

temps rarely, if ever, get leaving cards or presents, or even acknowledgements that they're leaving. usually no one notices.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:30 (twenty years ago)

that's basically true, though it hasn't been the case always. not that i really give a shit, but you sometimes get cards. once i left without giving notice, or indeed telling *anyone at all* so it works both ways.

― NR_Q, Friday, 11 March 2005 14:32 (twenty years ago)

It's not that I'm a tightarse. It's just that NO ONE HAS EVER RECIPROCATED ANY OF THIS. I've never even had so much as a CARD from any office I've ever worked in.

Why should I pay for other people to have fun when no one has ever funded my fun? Sod that.

― Masonic Cathedral (kate), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:32 (twenty years ago)

yes it's really arbitrary here also

but my office is like the "liberated ppl's republic of ..." so we often have parties and dos JUST FOR US!

i never contribute if i've never met or heard of the person
or if i need my money for eg lunch

a v.horrible head of HR once tried to crack down on it which ensured it doubled in frequency and lavishness

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

i got told off.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 14:55 (twenty years ago)

The only thing people here get on their birthdays is an e-mail sent to the team saying "It's XXXX's birthday! Happy Birthday!"

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:04 (twenty years ago)

when i left one job, my present was a mug, a sweatshirt, and a baseball hat bearing the name of the school i had been working at. as soon as i received the presents (cheerfully), i headed down to the campus bookstore and exchanged them for several rolls of 35mm film.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:23 (twenty years ago)

(it was an art school, so this felt more appropriate anyway.)

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:24 (twenty years ago)

the next job, i spent two years at, and i don't recall getting anything as a parting gift, although i was taken out to dinner. i think more than previously my boss resented my leaving. in a fit of pique, i think i tossed the card my coworkers had given me in the trash on the way home from the dinner. along the same lines as my burning my grade report from my sophomore year of college on my family's grill.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:29 (twenty years ago)

I like the scheme we have at my office: we don't have birthday collections unless it's a big round-number like 30 or 50. The rest of the time, on your birthday, you bring in birthday cake and share it around.

(we've dropped company birthday cards. Previously, everyone paid £1 per year, and the office secretary would arrange getting cards for everyone, and getting everyone to sign each one)

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:32 (twenty years ago)

oh yes cake and/or pizza is a good thing for birthdays. the birthday person feels acknowledged, and everyone has good stuff to eat.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:35 (twenty years ago)

wow, birthday pizza. i'd like that.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:37 (twenty years ago)

the candles don't really stick in the melted cheese too well, though.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:38 (twenty years ago)

I've never heard of this when people are leaving. Maternity/baby showers, yes. We don't get crap in terms of gifts from our principal. When you leave co-workers will usually meet you at a bar for drinks though (as mine are doing for me in a couple of weeks.) Teachers are all about throwing 'em back.

― Miss Misery (thatgirl), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:38 (twenty years ago)

i might have a baby so i get pizza.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:42 (twenty years ago)

I'm supposed to bring in my own birthday treats at this job! On their birthday people come in and plop down a tupperware container full of cookies or brownies or whatever on this cart, and then they send out an e-mail that says "birthday treats in the usual place" and that's that. Oh, and nobody talks around here, so you never really get wished a happy birthday or anything -- you have to go the trouble of baking or picking something up and then at the end of the day you just take your tupperware home.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:44 (twenty years ago)

I mean, at my last job, my boss made a huge deal about making sure that birthday cards were a BIG SECRET, enclosing them in discreet-looking manila folders to pass around and whispering about it and all that. Which I thought was kinda ridiculous. But at least I got a card! And she usually brought in cake, and we all sat around the conference table for like 15-30 minutes eating it and not doing work.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:46 (twenty years ago)

in utter silence i hope

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:47 (twenty years ago)

No, but I liked the people I worked with! The conversation was sometimes lame because the boss was there, too, but it was cool.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:49 (twenty years ago)

My favorite story of crappy gifts is how one year on Teacher Appreciation Day we each got a brown paper sack with a ziploc baggie of popcorn, ONE Snickers minature bar, and a warm can of Coke. It was a rather appropriate measure of their esteem though.

― Miss Misery (thatgirl), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:52 (twenty years ago)

are you sure those weren't just left over bag lunches from a field trip?

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 11 March 2005 15:53 (twenty years ago)

― Miss Misery (thatgirl), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:11 (twenty years ago)

well ilxors sent me BROWNIES!
But we knew your exact needs Chris!!
I usually contribute to these kind of things, but if the reciprocant has never spoken to me or we don't get on then I'm certainly not going to bother!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:34 (twenty years ago)

i think contributing to someone's leaving gift is a very nice gesture.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:40 (twenty years ago)

I've never had a proper job in an office with more than four people in it, so it's a bit tricky to get out of things like cards/presents. However, since there are so few people it's not like I am being called upon a lot for these things. I can't say they are all my bestest of pals ro anything, but chucking £5 into a kitty once or twice a year to benefit a happier atmosphere isn't going to bankrupt me or cause me sleepless nights. Also it means I get nice presents back (lots of booze last year). Everyone's a winner :)

― ailsa (ailsa), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

if it's an envelope going around and it's somebody you really don't like, you can always pretend to put money in but not.

a colleague of mine once signed "happy birthday" by accident on somebody's leaving card. that was priceless.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:42 (twenty years ago)

http://swisscharts.com/cdimg/hot_chocolate-every_1s_a_winner_s.jpg

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

when i left my temp job 2 years ago to move to london, they all chipped in to get me a very nice copy of London A-Z (+ a maybe less thoughtful gift of a fountain pen).

It was really lovely, but then again I am a very likeable person whom people like to buy gifts for.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:47 (twenty years ago)

We used to have a "sunshine fund" here that sent flowers to family funerals and hospitalized co-workers. One year the "suggested" donation was $20 well I could only afford $10 so I dropped off a check in the committee's box. A week later an older science teacher comes to my room, while I"m teaching, with my check to remind me the requested donation was $20. I told her I could only give ten and she said, "well then we don't want it," and gave me back the check. Unbelievable.

― Miss Misery (thatgirl), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:47 (twenty years ago)

We used to have a "sunshine fund" here that sent flowers to family funerals and hospitalized co-workers.

i never knew teaching was such a dangerous profession!!

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:49 (twenty years ago)

i threw a card in the bin once

― charltonlido (gareth), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:50 (twenty years ago)

you're more sentimental than I.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

xxpost

Surely you've heard the story of how the windows of mycar were shot out, during the day, parked in front of the school?

― Miss Misery (thatgirl), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:52 (twenty years ago)

"We haff ways of getting a bigger check from you, Miss Misery"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:56 (twenty years ago)

but then again I am a very likeable person whom people like to buy gifts for.

Oh great, Ken, blame the victim is this? Well see if I buy you a drink at the next Freaky Trigger, humph, likeable this, cockfarmer!

― Masonic Cathedral (kate), Friday, 11 March 2005 16:58 (twenty years ago)

aw you're only saying this because you know that there won't be a next Freaky Trigger ;)

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 11 March 2005 17:17 (twenty years ago)

...whatever they're calling it now...

― Masonic Cathedral (kate), Friday, 11 March 2005 17:39 (twenty years ago)

it's alright, when i wished for a free drink i was merely being wishful.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 11 March 2005 17:41 (twenty years ago)

or should i say i was merely being POPTIMISTIC?

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 11 March 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

Well it beat the system here... I have to buy lunch for everyone in the office as it is my Birthday!!!!!!!! Bloody Thailand.

The system is that the people whose birthday it is in the month, has to pay for lunch for the others, only there are only two of us who have birthdays this month so we have to pay more each. grrrrrr. So tomorrow will find everyone eating my food and most of them ignore me as much as possible the rest of the year.

― Paul Kelly (kelly), Monday, 14 March 2005 06:56 (twenty years ago)

i might have a baby so i get pizza.
-- g-kit

g-kit, that is the best reason for getting up the duff evah!...yo..

I hate offices where you have to bring in cakes when it is your b'day. I have said this before - I may even have started a thread.

My b'day = YOU buy ME cake - not the other way around!!!

And the one I'm in at the moment, you have to buy cakes for everyone before you go on hols too - WTF?

As for the envelope thing, it kinda depends on the size of the officw and how close you are to the folk leaving innit? I worked in an office before where there were so many people leaving, having sprogs, getting married, having b'day's that it was costing £5-£10 a week - that's a lot of cash over a year...

― smee (smee), Monday, 14 March 2005 10:57 (twenty years ago)

I usually take the day off on my birthday so I don't have to bring in cake haha. We buy a card from petty cash for each staff member when it's their birthday and everyone signs it, but there are collections only for leaving really.

Oddly, when I got to work this morning there was a mug on my desk with a note in it saying '£2 please Rachel Thanks'. I do not know what I am supposed to be giving £2 to.

― Archel (Archel), Monday, 14 March 2005 11:07 (twenty years ago)

That's weird. Just write a note back saying '£20 Mystery Mug please, thanks' it could work.....

― smee (smee), Monday, 14 March 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

And the one I'm in at the moment, you have to buy cakes for everyone before you go on hols too - WTF?

I bought everyone cakes on Christmas Eve last year, but that was kind of to apologise for winning both the top prize and the runner-up prize in the office Christmas competition.

― caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 14 March 2005 14:38 (twenty years ago)

you entered twice?

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 14 March 2005 15:22 (twenty years ago)

We need to bring in cakes for our birthday too, and when we go on holiday. What a joke. I wasn't even here on my birthday, was going on holiday so I avoided the double whammy. I only buy cakes I like though.

― Rumpsy Pumpsy (Rumpie), Monday, 14 March 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

I refuse to buy cakes for folk I hardly know - I rarely eat cakes (seriously - if it was chocolate or crisps it'd be a different matter) when other folk bring them in so why should I be TOLD to bring cakes in? Hmmm??

― smee (smee), Monday, 14 March 2005 16:18 (twenty years ago)

put laxatives in the cakes

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 14 March 2005 16:21 (twenty years ago)

I might just do that - or just keep quiet about my holiday and then say I forgot? Although Ihave tried this tactic before and they kept on at me till I bought them on my return. AS WELL as having to bring back sweeties for them all...

― smee (smee), Monday, 14 March 2005 16:31 (twenty years ago)

Haha I am gleeful now as someone just gave me a MASSIVE bar of Dairy Milk for, essentially, doing my job. I tried to protest but, what can you do, she's Russian. Maybe I will deposit my £2 in the mystery mug after all, just to share the wealth.

― Archel (Archel), Monday, 14 March 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

I wanna come to your office Archel, s'not fair ;0(

― smee (smee), Monday, 14 March 2005 16:44 (twenty years ago)

or just put the pretty shiny purple dairy milk wrapper in the mug, as a beautiful gift!

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 14 March 2005 16:45 (twenty years ago)

Mmm, Dairy Milk... I want an Easter Egg. Anyone get Easter Eggs/cakes from their bosses?

― Rumpsy Pumpsy (Rumpie), Monday, 14 March 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

Am I one of the few lucky people who actually like most of the people I work with?

We buy cakes when it's our birthday, will go out for drinks and get them bought for us. People seem to have no problems giving to leaving presents, and other momentous occassions - in an office of about 27, the last leaving pot got £72, and I got £100 worth of vouchers as a wedding present (although there are three people who contributed to that that I would refer to as friends rather than colleagues)

We don't do birthday cards or presents, unless major ones, and we don't have to do christmas cards, I don't think christmas presents have ever been exchanged.

We also bring chocolate/sweets etc. back when we've been on holiday.

― Vicky (Vicky), Monday, 14 March 2005 16:53 (twenty years ago)

I went Mystery Shopping for easter eggs on Saturday...they are in the house...they are shouting on me....was gonna give them to the step sprogs but hey, it's 2 weeks till Easter, right?

― smee (smee), Monday, 14 March 2005 16:54 (twenty years ago)

The mystery of the mystery mug has been solved: I had the wrong end of the stick altogether, basically. The mug was a gift TO ME, from a colleague who's going on maternity leave. And the £2 thing was actually from another colleague paying me back £2 that SHE owed ME, I just misread it. Conclusion: my workplace is great!

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 10:05 (twenty years ago)

haha what did the note actually say?

'£2 please Rachel Thanks' doesn't sounds like people are owing you money!!

on a tangential note - how apt must it be to use a mug as a vessel for asking people for money for no reason??

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

The key word was 'please'. Ie. it wasn't actually there. Doh!

It is probably very telling that I see a mug with £2 in it and assume that the mug is asking me for 2 further £, rather than that the original £2 (and the mug itself) are FOR ME. Um.

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

very telling that you're so admirably generous!

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 12:03 (twenty years ago)

(can you lend me a tenner?)

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

I don't think it's very telling about YOU, I mean it strikes me as completely bizarre to have just left those things on your desk without very good explanatory notes. Shouldn't they have just waited til you were actually in the office to give you these things instead of leaving them there? That note does seem very confusing!

― Allyzay, Tuesday, 15 March 2005 12:17 (twenty years ago)

It was completely confusing. But probably my colleague relied on the fact that she was going to see me in person today and could explain.

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 13:16 (twenty years ago)

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