The Pope is Dead. For Real this time.

Ever heard of the boy who cried "dead Pope"?

Maria, I wish you would change your signin to " Maria :D  " because that's what it always lookls like to me.

Wha happened?

-- dave225 (right.knewi...), April 1st, 2005.

Your wish is my command. Let's see if it worked.

Wouldn't it be cool if Jenny could be the pope? Or how about Madonna?

-- Chevy Chase, Weekend Update, Saturday Night Live, c. 1979 thru 1981. Winner: Oldest Running Gag on a Celebrity Death

This happens lots more often than you think. I know of a relative, an uncle of mine, who was so ill in the '80s that he was given his "last rites" (now known as the Anointing of the Sick), but who improved and went on to live another six years. He was administered "last rites" once more, obv.

I'm really shocked at the general heartlessness this board community has shown toward Pope John Paul II's impending passing. To some people, this might be cause for joking, but to me -- he's like my earthly spiritual father. I will be incredibly devastated and will go through a period of mourning when JP II passes. All these news reports alone have made me really sad. It's a sad day overall. And yeah, he shouldn't hang on and suffer anymore, but until God is ready to accept him into Heaven, I feel that he's still going to be hanging on. And I'm waiting for word from the Vatican. Not saying that everyone here has been heartless; some of you have been incredibly understanding and for that I thank you (Remy is one of the people I can immediately think of, but there are others).

Anyway. Off to school.

"In her National Catholic Reporter article, "Defending life even unto death,' Professor Janine Langan, of the University of Toronto, assesses Evangelium Vitae: "John Paul leaves no room for ghetto Catholicism. Excusing our silence about matters of truth because 'we should not push on other people our Christian God,' as one of my students put it last year, is not acceptable." Professor Langan does not acknowledge that this encyclical is extremist in nature but she describes it forthrightly, referring to section #73: "In a situation as grave as the present one, Christians are bound to come into conflict.... Evangelium Vitae is thus a challenge to defend life even at the cost of martyrdom. But it's also a promise that, with God, everything is possible. Finally, this encyclical does not merely state that being "pro-choice" is not an option, but that every one of us is also morally bound to oppose, at any cost, any public attack on any human person's right to life [#104]." Langan quotes the pope, "life finds its center, its meaning and its fulfillment when it is given up [#51]." In her view, and the pope's, martyrdom is admirable: "Martyrdom is the one witness to the truth about man which every one can hear. No society, however dark, can stifle it."

(JP2, in the middle.)

if it wasn't for pope john paul II, the soviet union might have crept along for a bit longer than it actually did. aside from gorbachev, no single person did as much to bring the USSR to an end than the pope. and aside from walesa, no single person did as much to free his homeland from the soviets as the pope.

so his faults and all, and my genuine antipathy towards religion aside, i will mourn him when he dies.

Those are Popes who died, died

"The way he has faced all this illness with serenity, with courage, with a deep faith and I think that is probably his last and one of his finest lessons."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4402907.stm

I really do not understand what is inspirational about suffering. I really don't. Could someone who is (or was) Catholic please explain?

if so, RIP.

but i was raised catholic so it would be weird if I felt nothing at all. He seems to have lived a long and interesting life.

Also, there seems to be a lot of progressive Catholicism around, but I live in California.

xpost

i will credit pjp2 for probably doing more than any christian leader in modern history to better christian relations with the jewish faith.

Apparently your idea of dignity consists in bullying people with viewpoints at variance with your own or mindless obedience to a hierarchy, which isn't dignity it's subservience. You can keep it, mon cher, I don't need either.

xpost

Hstencil has a good point.

illogical, and self-centered;

Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, people may accuse you of

Selfish, ulterior motives;

Be kind anyway.

If you successful, you will win some

False friend and some true enemies;

Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and frank,

People may cheat you;

Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spend years building,

Someone could destroy overnight;

Build anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness,

They may be jealous;

Be happy anyway.

The good you do today,

People will often forget tomorrow;

Do good anyway.

Give the world the best you have,

And it may never be enough;

Give the world the best you've got anyway.

You see, in the final analysis,

It is between you and God;

It never was between you and them anyway.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res75vc1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/breakdance_pope.jpg

Oh, man. Good times, I tell ya.

"Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said the pope celebrated a Mass and mediated on the ritual of the Stations of the Cross."

For a man of such faith this must really weird to think about today.

OTM!

http://www.fromthearchives.com/bp/BPDrunk_LinkCD_f.jpg

...isn't going to be re-mastered and re-released any time soon.

So, back to the Pope...

Good lord, CNN is now interviewing whistleheaded American tourists in Rome. This has to be seen to be believed. No wonder the rest of the world hates our fucking guts.

Edward what would want the Chruch to do? No other NGO does more to help the poor in third world countries. Your master plan is for the Chruch to sell its churchs, universities, schools and hospitals. Brilliant, just brilliant.

Remy, same surname, no relation.

Briefly outline where I said that's what I wanted the Catholic Church to do. I don't really care what the Church does, but I do NOT think it's appropriate to lionise a man whose subjects are starving while the Church rolls in cash as a great fucking humanitarian.

Because the man ain't.

Alex, my 4AD vinyl copy of that split still sounds great! I don't think it sells for much. But you probably don't have a turntable.

Stop telling people they'll go to hell if they use birth control, for one thing.

I had hoped they would somehow manage to keep him alive in some degraded form, on life-support, for years. That would have been fitting. More unrinary infections! Shitting in a bag!

Instead, he's happily entered into... nothing.

I think some of you are misrepresenting this Pope. Unlike his immediate predecessor, he was a pragmatist and thinker. He was limited in what he could do, but in the church there is an understanding of this. The church has no real power to force people to reject birth control, and this is just something that's understood. There is a lot beneath the surface here, and if you grew up in the church, you would see that.

I liked the guy. Didn't always agree with him, but a rationalist pope is cool.

The other JP was cool too - just more of a feeler than a rationalist.

Bollocks. Millions of people lived by his word and the church knows that.

I am really sick of the Protestant garbage on this board.

Yes, he was far too *overtly* liberal. Think about it.

actually, ILX has a thing about Christianity(some are fer it, others agin'). i'd chalk it up more to being that than for any conscious "anti-papist" vibe.

don't worry. as alluded to on one of the terry schiavo threads, once Jerry Falwell snuffs it, that Protestant will verily get his just due.

“The truth is not in condoms or clean needles. These are lies, lies perpetrated often for political reasons on the part of public officials…by some health care professionals who believe they have nothing else to offer persons with AIDS…lies told by often well-meaning counselors.”

Cardinal John O’Connor, accusing health care professionals of dishonesty in promoting condoms [“Pope Condemns Bias Against Victims of AIDS,” Washington Post, November 16, 1989].

“Every condom sold sends the buyer to acquire the AIDS virus.”

Fr. Gerald Magera Iga, in a campaign urging condom sellers in Uganda to burn up their stocks [Comtex newswire, January 25, 1999].

“Using a condom to protect oneself against HIV amounts to playing Russian roulette.”

Fr. Jacques Suaudeau, of the Vatican Council for the Family, in the Catholic journal Medicina e Morale [Our Sunday Visitor, Nov. 2, 1997].

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass.

Although he seems to be setting himself up for a pretty curmugeonly old age, Christopher Hitchens is still a great debunker.

Given you dont want the Vatican to sell its assets Im wondering where all this "cash" you talk of the Vatican "rolling in" is?The facts of the matter are that the Vatican has a miniscule operating budget of 260 million dollars and struggles to balance the books as it is.Given, the Church could put the Pope in a caravan and save a few bob that way.

The total net worth of the Vatican has been estimated at 1 billion dollars, although an accurate figure is difficult given the nature of the assets. To put this in perspective, many major US univerities have endowment funds greater than the net worth of the Vatican.

Peace!

Major US Universities would tend to fall under the umbrella of "businesses", something the Church does not.

And yet it is a business, and much more. It is a bank, a corporation, and a government at the same time. This is also the reason that it's nearly impossible to say how much it is worth.

uh, no. some unis are public (ie. state-funded) and some unis are private but non-profit. hardly any are for-profit, run like/as businesses.

but i agree with your point about the church, sure. tho i think the church probably does more than you're aware of.

Agca's attorneys claim he could be released from jail as early as 2005 because of recent changes to Turkish law, although it was unclear if authorities would agree to free him.-AP

Not a big one for generalizations are you? Some Catholics are rich and some are poor, whatever the case the role of the church is to minister to them spiritually, not to act as a mechanism for wealth distribution. Ending world poverty is a goal for governments, the Vatican (thankfully) has been out of the running as a temporal power for a long time now.

Now that really is a crock. Between the atheists and the born-agains, there wasn't much room for Catholics.

Mr. Reagan has appointed three national security advisors - Richard Allen, William Clark, and James McFarland. All are Irish Catholic.

His two secretaries of state have been Alexander Haig, an Irish Catholic, and George Schultz, a Catholic of German extraction.

His CIA director is William Casey, an Irish Roman Catholic, as is his attorney-general, William French Smith.

HHS Secretary Margaret Heckler is also Irish Roman Catholic.

Horseshit. Catholic bashing has a long ugly history in the US, and a lot of it hasn't come to the surface yet.

and i clearly stated i didn't agree with the link. i don't. but it took all of two seconds to find it and to prove you wrong, moron.

Because the United States is the creation of Freemasons and they don't like Popes (or monarchs).

-- hstencil (hstenc!...) (webmail), April 3rd, 2005 8:45 AM. (hstencil) (later) (link)

Uh, you'd be surprised how things work outside of liberal arts pony land.

(xpost)

And tried to mend some more fences with the Eastern rite.

While I'm at it Neil Young also turned on Rayguns shortly after the re-election. I'm still not sure he was on the cart for the start of that decade. But either way I'm not a big fan of his political candidates.

Why aren't there Catholic presidents?

Wasn't JFK a catholic?

True, but the universities and the board of governors/regents are increasingly making decisions that would once upon a time (10~15 years ago) fall to the academic decision making body.

that does not make them "businesses."

One of the nation's leading experts on securities law, he is the co-author, with the late Louis Loss, of the 11-volume Securities Regulation, the leading treatise in the field, and author of The Transformation of Wall Street: A History of the Securities and Exchange Commission and Modern Corporation Finance. "In multiple dimensions, Joel Seligman shows himself to be a person of remarkable vision, someone who can lead a national research university like ours toward its greatest potential," said G. Robert Witmer, Jr., chairman of the Board of Trustees. "As law school dean at Washington University and previously at the University of Arizona, his energy and accomplishments have been nothing short of astonishing."

but anyway, who cares, let's get back to da pope.

xxpost - why wouldn't a university want an accomplished lawyer on its board?

http://www.killingthebuddha.com/confession/papalpictureshow.htm

Faithful pay respects to pope

missing subtitle:

Unfaithful pay alimony

Has the theory that JP I was poisoned for his progressive agenda been convincingly debunked?

I'm not much for Polish jokes, but I confess the first word I thought of upon seeing pic of the Pope-in-coffin was "kielbasa."

nope, no more than the conservative mantra that reagan ended communism. obv. they played roles, but, duh, the people in communist states ended communism.

Still, I'm sure the world's media will be very understanding...

WORST AVATAR EVER.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/martin_rowson/2005/04/04/rowson512.jpg

praying this goes for poland itself, where i am going on thursday. my g/f's grandfather was polish and all that. kracow was the pope's manor, and i guess it might be interesting, but i'm hoping that coca-colonisation might have at least partially allayed any maudlin, sentimental bullshit for this frightful monster. we're staying in the jewish quarter, which will hopefully be less affected, but still.

Try Psalm 64.

I remember this thread.