vegans and vegetarians

i became vegan in 1996 after learning that the practises involved in the production of eggs and milk are also pretty hideous. it's a decision based mainly on compassion - which leaves me open to charges of sentinmentality as i'm well aware. there are also pretty hardcore ethical and economical reasons for being vegan, but as far as i'm concerned these are bonus reasons. though it's good to have them to hand when people start laying into you for being vegan - why do many people do this? it makes me sad.

Went back the next day and read Sinclaire's The Jungle from cover to cover. Yuck!

I don't miss big, bloody steaks. The only meat cravings I ever get are for weird, strange, artificial meat product things like swedish meatballs and chicken nuggets and fast food hamburgers. I thank the lord every day for giving me QUORN to solve this dilemma.

(p.s. Tompaulin were the best I've ever seen them on Wednesday. The album's just arrived at work! I can make all my colleagues listen to it! Woo!)

I am scared that I'll throw up if I meat though for the first time, it has after all been about 8 years!

(there's still some with your name on it at my house, Mr Brown...)

Plus I'm starting to feel like organic meat might be an option (it was always the rearing aspect rather than the cuddly cute factor that put me off.) as it's more available.

Part of me does still squirm at eating meat though, I would appear to be a mess of contradictions on the subject.

*Which took me ages, partly cause my favourite food was always a) a tomato sandwich and b) beans on potato waffles. But partly because conventional British cooking was so meat-centred, I didn't know where to start.

I can cook a lot of things too, it's just that it's not exciting me much anymore, the last food I ate that really excited me was a bowl of Cinnamon Grahams for the first time in ages :(

ha ha ha ha ah ah h ah a cough cough splutter. I used to be quite thin, now I'm a fat bastard and veggie. Maybe if I start eating meat I'll lose some weight?

Damn -- I know it when I see it at the store. There's a brand that comes in a little brick that's pretty good, and there's also a brand that comes in shredded form that tastes pretty good. If I can remember I'll post it/them.

I used to be quite thin, now I'm a fat bastard and veggie. Maybe if I start eating meat I'll lose some weight?

Well, if you're replacing meat with cheese and Doritos, it ain't gonna work out too well. :)

Main reason I did? Laziness. We eat out all the time and it's hard to be veggie when you never cook. I can do it and have done it but I just got tired of it. And fast food hamburgers are sooo good. Really, i think if US fast food chains served veggie burgers like in Europe I'd probaly be okay. alas . .

I'll probably go meatless again someday. I still think it's a healthier diet and a much better way to live. I guess I'm just an ethically defiecient, un-discplined slob. . .

I'm having my doubts now...I feel like I can't stay at the no-meat stage, I have to become either vegan so that I won't have any hypocrisy (is tranquilizing animals and then killing them worse than making them produce eggs and milk for human consumption? a little but i'm having trouble with it) or I have to give up vegetarianism altogether. And almost everything I eat has cheese in or on it, so I cant even imagine going vegan.

I whole-heartedly agree. _The Jungle_ was a travesty of a novel and I am very pleased that I never had to read its racist rantings ever again.

I need meat so badly. Yesterday I was out at freebie pissup and there were many things to eat, but nothing meat-based at all, and I began to feel cold-turkey symptoms akin to those in Trainspotting in a skag stylee.

I was so desperate, I even ate squid.

My dad got cross and sent me to my room. He thought I had done it because I was fed up of eating turkey sandwiches. But when I decided I was serious, he thought it was admirable. My mum found it a bit more of a pain. She still worries about it causing problems if I meet a lovely omnivorous girl.

I never got around to giving up fish (originally a concession to my mum but now I can't live if living is without prawns).

I'm sure just like vegetarians have meat cravings most meat eaters have moments where they think meat is disgusting.

Now that I know this I'm glad I've never read the damn thing.

I am omnivorous, but the advantage of knowing many veg friends is the expanded range of dining options that my earlier foolish self would never have considered. Many delicious veg/vegan restaurants around here, and I'm more than content with having a fresh to-go salad for dinner these days (no dressing -- I avoid that entirely now), so long as I have some rice crackers to nibble on or the like. In the long term, I'm essentially convinced the world will be veg within the next hundred years, for health and many other reasons. It is a slow process, too slow arguably, but it will happen. I'm neither a crusader for its occurring nor a rear-guard defender of Other Ways, merely an observer.

Last night, I reentered the dating world with an extremely lovely dinner at Au Lac (those who have read the novel will recognize it -- it is indeed a kick-butt Vietnamese veg place). Marvy fun fab. :-)

thats interesting - i saw some right-wing guy on TV explain the link between the use of psychedlics and vegetarianism: "if i'd taken as much acid as Paul McCartney i wouldn't eat anything with eyes in it either."

i wanna know, what was the moment in your life that made you decide not to eat meat anymore?

not really sure it was gradual. i guess it came from trying to live with vegetarians from fear of food poisoning from flatmates who've never washed anything in their life and from disgust about how non-organic farm animals are kept.

i think veganism is a crock of shit and i've never met a true vegan altough i've met loads who claim to be. i don't mind it when people decide not to eat certain things for whatever reasons and keep it to themselves but i hate it when vegetarians/vegans expect other people to live the way they do. Drawing the line at certain products in such a crude way does a disservice to animal rights and environmental movements, with which they usually align themselves. Blah blah i could go on for hours about this but people want to use the phone. ask me when drunk.

me too. that's why i don't expect any such thing. being a vegan is a pain in the ass at times and requires a certain level of commitment which you can't and shouldn't force on people.

Drawing the line at certain products in such a crude way does a disservice to animal rights and environmental movements

to use your own words, that's a crock of shit. companies test their pruducts on animals - i don't use those products. they use animal derivatives, i don't use or eat them. it's got leather or silk or wool in it, i don't wear it. sure, things occasionally slip through (who knows what an E number may have in it, after all), and so i accept your comment about true vegans, even i i'm accepting it not in the way you meant it (ie. it's practuically impossible to avoid ALL animal-derived things no matter how hard you try, unless you grow your own food i suppose. i suspect that you were implying that vegans are hypocrites). i fail to see how doing your damndest to avoid products that have contributed to animal suffering and death, however indirectly, "does a disservice" to animal rights movements.

no that is the way i meant it but its not really a case of things occasionally slipping through, its a case of turning a blind eye to certain things (such as fish fertliser used in organic vegetables and battery chickens used for filtering beer). BTW there are little booklets that explain the E numbers that you can probably get from your local SAFE or whatever the equivalent local self-righteous vegan organisation is. A lot of the E number descriptions are ambiguous about whether or not they contain animal products though. Do you eat honey? (i'm not hassling you here i'm genuinely interested).

i fail to see how doing your damndest to avoid products that have contributed to animal suffering and death, however indirectly, "does a disservice" to animal rights movements.

avoiding products that have contributed to animal suffering is vastly different to vegetarianism (and "veganism" to a certain extent) but its currently the main focus of the animal rights movement. it accepts some animal suffering no matter how strong it is and condemns some suffering regardless of how strong or insignificant it is. i can understand people making these crude demarcations but it pisses me off when people act like i'm some kind of brutal heartless animal torturer for not buying into their thoughtless beliefs.

er, OK i dont eat honey. The Vegan Society are my local bunch of intolerant, self righteous freaks and they publish a book called The Animal Free Shopper which deperately tries, but often fails, to keep up with what's vegan-acceptable or not (a main reason being that major supermarket chains often refuse to divulge this information). and like you said, the descriptions of E numbers are often vague or ambiguous anyway, so what's a vegan gurlie to do?

such as fish fertliser used in organic vegetables and battery chickens used for filtering beer

didnt know about the fishies, i'll ask the Soil Assoc. as i am also a member there. i think though, that this only serves to underline my point about it being remarkably difficult to lead a totally animal- free life, especially if there's no information about this generally available. it's a question of how far you want to go - i mean, do i not use plastics because they were made from oil which was made from ancient dino carcasses?

the beer - yes they also use fish gelatine in some beers, and the animal free shopper is handy for identifying animal-free brands. Next!!

avoiding products that have contributed to animal suffering is vastly different to vegetarianism (and "veganism" to a certain extent) but its currently the main focus of the animal rights movement. it accepts some animal suffering no matter how strong it is and condemns some suffering regardless of how strong or insignificant it is. i can understand people making these crude demarcations but it pisses me off when people act like i'm some kind of brutal heartless animal torturer for not buying into their thoughtless beliefs.

sorry i put the whole para there but it seems somewhat incoherent. firstly, part of a vegan's "mission statement" as it were is to AVOID ANIMAL TESTED PRODUCTS. now again, companies are strangely unwilling to divulge what is and isn't animal tested, but more and more i'm just buying mail-order from companies like dolma and honesty, who are 100% vegan acceptable. just what exactly do you think an "animal rights activist" is, Hamish? they don't just target animal testing, they are against cruelty in all its forms, including farming etc. and they don't all have to be balaclava-wearing, paint-throwing puppy liberators.

DID I CALL YOU A BRUTAL HEARTLESS ANIMAL TORTURER??? I THINK NOT. my beliefs are not "thoughtless" they are the result of ten years of weighing things up and deciding whether i can live with them or not. people like you are always ready to throw the "you're victimising me because i don't share your belief" shtick without stopping to think that it might infact be the other way around. i have NEVER EVER told anyone what to believe, think or eat, and how DARE you insist otherwise? the only reason that vegans like myself don't just shut up and get quietly on with it is that we like to eat out sometimes, have some fun with friends maybe, and when someone is questioning a menu or (god forbid!!) ordering a pizza without the cheese, we seem a little more visible. THAT IS ALL.

* Fining- after fermentation certain substances are added to beer to weight the yeast down and 'fine' the beer, essentially clear it, this can be done by leaving the beer and letting the yeast sink over time but int he comercially sensitive world where letting the beer fine naturally can take 3 to 4 times longer than using a fining substance.....

just what exactly do you think an "animal rights activist" is, Hamish?

i wasn't hassling animal rights activists per se - i was saying that their focus on promoting vegetarianism is doing their movement a disservice. i am very aware of how their movement works in NZ because i work closely with a lot of them on environmental issues.
i can understand you feeling defensive about veganism because its hard to refuse other foods when eating with other people but please don't accuse of me saying a whole lot of stuff that i didn't say. as for the fish fertiliser - i was applying it to some spring onions last week which brought home to me how next to impossible it is to be a vegan (or "a crock of shit" when i'm being less diplomatic).

do you know, i think the Vegan Sociery actually defines a vegan as one who lives their lives without animal and animal tested products as far as is practically possible. so for those of us doing our utmost, it's a little disconcerting to be told that our entire lifestyles are a "crock of shit". i'm not happy that bits of animal seem to be involved in almost everything i do, but i do try to avoid them. sometimes, goddammit, i can't - but i don't think that this means that i'm a failure as a vegan and i don't think this deprives me of my right to describe myself as such.

the thing about promoting vegetarianism as the animal-friendly choice - OK well obviously that has its crock of shit points. but even if you still eat battery farmed eggs, at least not eating at McDonald's anymore has got to be an improvement. also, it's probably far more effective to say "go veggie!" than it is to say "go Vegan!". if you said "go vegan!" to most people they'd just say "no - you're all nutters." if you said "go veggie" and explained a few things they might be willing to give it a go. if you were campaigning that is. which i'm not.

Almost all beer is fined* with isingglass (fish guts), or gelatine and so aren't even vegitarian

A surprisingly large amount of beers *aren't* fined this way. Again, your animal friendly shopper is helpful in this regard.

"unemployed" at the moment but i've been working on organic farms lately (unfortunately not permaculture so it'd be stretching the truth to call it sustainable agriculture).

Hamish, are you going out of your way to piss Katie off?

no i was just being my usual blunt and insensitive self. sorry Katie i shouldn't have called veganism a crock of shit, especially since you are using a more realistic definition of it than most people.

katie this would be OK

that wasn't my argument at all but since everything i've written on this thread has come across pretty muddled its hardly your fault. i don't have a problem with the type of veganism that katie practices, in fact i admire her for it. It'd be unsustainable and could cause mass starvation if it was picked up by the larger population but since she doesn't appear to be trying to convert people this doesn't matter. My only problem is with evangelical vegetarians and vegans.

Also i think that despite all the problems being vege/vegan can arise when dealing with other people those two particular demarcations are highly ingrained in our society. We're up to the point where if you are not a vegetarian people will assume that you are unconcerned about animal welfare and where your food has come from and you'll eat anything that they want to dish up for you for dinner (excluding personal taste).

The key ingredient that determines whether a beer is vegetarian/vegan or not is finings. Finings are used to clarify beer, by pulling yeast sediment to the bottom of the cask. These are usually made from isinglass, an extract from the swim bladder of the sturgeon fish. Although the finings drop to the bottom of the cask with the yeast and are not consumed, the use of an animal product to produce the beer is objected to by strict vegetarians and vegans. Some brewers don’t fine their beer, but this means the beer needs longer to settle before serving in the pub and still turns out hazy or even cloudy in the glass. Others use finings made from seaweed, but this is mostly confined to bottled beer usage. Even brewers producing bottle-conditioned beers often fine the beer at the brewery before adding in fresh yeast prior to bottling. However, several brewers bottle without fining the beer and their bottle-conditioned beers can be considered to be vegetarian/vegan. Not all the beers have official vegetarian/vegan accreditation, but the brewers assure us that no animal products are used in their production. Note that honey beers may be vegetarian but are not considered vegan as they contain an animal product — honey!

Black Isle, Munlochy, Ross-shire, Scotland. Tel. 01463 811871

Vegan Beers: Black Isle Organic, Blonde (wheat beer)

Brakspear, Henley-on-Thames, Oxfordshire. Tel. 01491 570200

Vegan Beer: Ted and Ben’s

Hop Back, Downton, Wiltshire. Tel. 01725 510986

Vegan Beer: Entire Stout

Marble Brewery, Manchester. Tel. 0161 832 5914

Vegan Beers: Northern Quarter, Cloudy Marble, Uncut Amber, Old Lag, Chocolate Heavy, Ginger Beer

Pitfield Brewery, London N1. Tel. 020 7739 3701

Vegan Beers: Pitfield Original Bitter, Shoreditch Stout, East Kent Goldings, Eco Warrior, Hoxton Best Bitter, Black Eagle, 1850 Porter, plus special brews

Brakspear, Henley-on-Thames, Oxfordshire. Tel. 01491 570200

Vegan Beers: Live Organic

Burton Bridge Brewery, Burton-upon-Trent, Staffordshire. Tel. 01283 510573

Vegan Beers: Burton Porter, Bramble Stout, Empire Pale Ale, Tickle Brain

Cropton Brewery, Cropton, N. Yorkshire. Tel. 01751 417310

Vegan Beers: King Billy, Two Pints Bitter, Scoresby Stout, Uncle Sams Bitter, Rudolph’s Revenge, Backwoods Bitter, Monkman’s Slaughter

Vegetarian Beer: Honey Farm Bitter

Durham Brewery, Bowburn, Durham. Tel. 0191 377 1991

Vegan Beers: St Cuthbert, Sanctuary, Black Bishop, Bede’s Chalice, Cloister

Freeminer Brewery, Cinderford, Gloucestershire. Tel. 01594 827989

Vegan Beer: Shakemantle Ginger Ale

Hanby Ales, Wem, Shropshire. Tel. 01939 232432

Vegan Beers: Shropshire Stout, Hanby Premium, Cherry Bomb

Pilgrim Brewery, Reigate, Surrey. Tel. 01737 222651

Vegan Beers: Springbock, Pudding

Pitfield Brewery, London N1. Tel. 020 7739 3701

Vegan Beers: Pitfield Original Bitter, Shoreditch Stout, East Kent Goldings, Eco Warrior, Hoxton Best Bitter, Black Eagle, 1850 Porter, plus special brews

Quay Brewery, Weymouth, Dorset. Tel. 01305 777515

Vegan Beer: Weymouth Organic Gold

Energy wise the output being so much lower than the input, humanity is loosing big time. if we stop the mass production of animals we could easily feed the whole world.

when people ask me about vegetarianism, I tend to tell them that if they cut out all the mediocre meat in their diets (fast food, hamburger helper, etc), they'd probably be halfway towards vegetarianism without really missing anything! and they tend to agree..

I have heard of vegans who refuse all alcohol on the grounds that fermentation exploits yeast.

However, it needs mentioning that the reason people are starving is absolutely not that there is not enough food.

Martin is OTM. If it weren't for the transportation logistics and money (the farmers do deserve to be paid), the fertile parts of the world could easily feed those areas where crops have failed.

Yeast, that well known animal.

I despair sometimes, I really do.

Oh, to answer the question, the PETA propaganda got me when I was 13. I've always been an animal lover and all the other reasons made a lot of sense to me too. I don't know if I'm really making a difference, and I certainly don't believe that it makes me some nobler breed of being, but I do feel comfortable with my actions. Except when I break down and buy leather boots, as I always do.

Canadians eat more than twice as much meat as the global average. Along with Australia and the United States, we consume more meat per person than every other country in the world. In 2000, we consumed 99.8kg of meat per person, which amounts to a daily consumption of about 10oz (275g).

An Oxford University study showed that in comparison to meat eaters, vegetarians had a 24 per cent reduction in mortality from heart disease even when other lifestyle factors such as smoking, exercise, and socio-economic class were taken into account.

Another reason to reduce meat intake is to limit your exposure to chemicals and antibiotics fed to livestock.

The salty smell of a fish market is much more tolerable. And a vegetable and fruit market is a pleasure to the senses.

In industrialized countries we have no idea of what we actually eat and have a pretty foggy notion of what happens to our waste.

Haven't had a craving for meat since. Haven't missed it at all.. except maybe pepperoni and any meat dish I get a whaff of at an Ethiopian restaurant. Then again, them soy fake meats are suuuure great. :)

Depends... I actually find that pretty yummy.

(I should stay out of this thread)

So, the following year I went to study in England, and on a whim decided on the plane there to finally give it up. (The last meat dish I had: a Philly cheese steak at the Philadelphia airport.) I had some trouble at first, but it had less to do with missing meat than with justifying such a dramatic lifestyle change beyond "My friends are doing it." Ultimately, I decided that, even if I didn't have a single, definitive reason to do it, that the overall reasons against eating meat outweighed the reasons for it. Which then worked. And since then, I have developed more concrete beliefs -- i.e., I'm much more aware and concerned with animal rights than I was then.

Anyway, I'm happy. It's been four and a half years.

I've been veggie for 10 years. REPRUZINT!!

BOOYAH!!!

(I've had too much sugar this morning - apologies... Sugar is vegetarian)...

So, these people at work ordered Chinese food for lunch + they were like, "Sarah? Do you eat Chinese? Is it vegetarian?" What dumbnutz!

I just had some dee-lish tofu bi bim bop from the Chinese restaurant down the street.

Search -Tofutti products (the cream cheese, sour cream, ice cream and ice cream sandwiches are fab. better than the real thing even). Sour patch kids, Droxies (like Oreos but vegan), Vitasoy Milk (the best for smoothies) SpiruTein Soy Mix (for the smoothies, the best flavors are raspberry and cappucinno).

Destroy - Soy cheese or rice cheese (don't even bother, it'll only taste good baked in lasagna)try to sprinkle nutritional yeast on top for a cheesy flavor.

Guinness and Bass are not vegan. If you are strict don't bother but if you want to enjoy go ahead and live.

(Haha! "Meat is Murder" just came on my shuffle-play iTunes!)

I do portabello mushrooms, brocolli, red onions, pinenuts and fresh basil all sauteed in balsamic vinegar and garlic before adding to the filling. You can add sauce to it in the inside before folding or you can serve it on the side (sauce I think makes it a stromboli if on the inside, I don't know that always confused me).

Then you just fold over the other side, so it's a crescent shape, tuck the flaps so that it's closed and you can brush margarine and add more garlic to the top. Oh and make a few slices in the top so it doesn;t explode. Bake at 350 degrees (not sure of the English equivalent) or until golden brown.

That's basically the jest of it. I don't really have recipes I just know what I like and what tastes good together so I'll just throw them all in a pot.

I'm cool with vegans despite not being one myself, but a long-time friend just made the leap a couple months ago and has since turned into the most preachy nuisance in my life and I just want to know how long the veganism honeymoon period is supposed to last.

'bout an hour and a half

it took me a lot of years to calm down - for some it has the strength of a religious awakening. it's a conviction, and when you sort of go "ok, if we're being completely honest about how animals are treated, what's the situation" it can have a profound effect on you. I don't know of any way to convince people to mellow out though. you sort of age into it.

Thanks! I'll just nod my head and keep trying to change the subject.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/world/europe/new-five-pound-note-uk-vegetarians.html

LONDON — When it released a new 5-pound note in September, the Bank of England said the polymer bills were stronger, safer and better for the environment. One thing they are not, it turns out, is meat-free.

To the dismay of vegans and vegetarians across Britain, the Bank of England has confirmed that tallow was used in the base of the new notes, worth about $6.25.

It is some forward-looking from the royal mint, when we get hit by hyperinflation and famine we will at least be able to eat the currency.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/Eat_The_Rich_(song).jpg

Ya, it's the polymer

Same with the canadian banknotes

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/theres-a-minute-amount-of-rendered-animal-fat-in-canadas-banknotes-bank-of-canada-confirms

This sort of thing is like moral objections to honey. By making ethical vegans look like kooks, it makes it easier for omnis to ignore the moral implications of their own decisions.

I try to minimize my suffering and environmental impact. I'm glad that there are more active vegans out there willing to point out to beer producers that there are ethical alternatives to isinglass, etc. But I realize that a world with 10% of the animal exploitation as present is a lot better for all of us (including ourselves and our children) is a lot better than where our concerns are viewed as irrelevant.

Personally, I'd point out to the treasury departments involved that cocoa butter is an excellent source for the stearic acid (and derivatives) that are commonly used in everything from plastics to shampoos. I'd help them work through the issue that few chemicals have ethical annotations.

xp. ive been doing an unconscious ethical vegan boycott of canadian $ for years by never carrying cash

i've known a lot of people in the animal rights movement over the past decade or so and many of the most successful and prominent of them have realized the pitfall of objecting to things like honey or isinglass or even encouraging people to go 100% vegan

yes you catch more flies with honey

I've been vegan now for 13 years and I don't even think twice about it anymore.

The honey thing I've p much given up on although I continue to avoid it out of pig headed orthodoxy