Am I Just Unemployable? (Sacked. Again. Part Three.)

The head of the department called me into his office. I was in a complete state of flap, said I wanted to resign, then tried to pull back and say that actually I didn't think that Alpha Female was an effective manager for me, could I report to someone else. He took it as an ultimatum and sent me home.

The irony being, that in the mean time, I did some very deep thinking, decided to act like a grown up, confront this head on and not let it spoil a good job, and rang Alpha Female and asked to meet her for drinks and try and talk it out and resolve it so it didn't happen again. She agreed, was perfectly willing to work on things, and I said I would resume work the next morning.

I get home to find a couriered letter waiting for me, telling me to turn up the next morning for a meeting with HR to "discuss the potential termination of my contract." I rang Department Head and asked him, "Is this is disciplinary hearing where we are going to talk this out, or have you already decided to sack me, and this is just a formality?"

He said "we're not technically sacking you, you're still in your probationary period so we're terminating the contract." I told him I wasn't buying a travelcard and hauling myself out to Hammersmith for that, he could sack me by post and hung up.

The worst thing was, if he'd just been freaking honest about it, and said that he was sacking me for my attitude, for my moodswings, for anger management issues, I'd have been "yeah, OK, fine". But he started casting aspertions on my *work* because I don't like to use the phone, I prefer to contact clients by email (firstly because I know I have a terrible phone manner, and secondly, so I have written documentation of everything that has happened.) I told him "you know, frankly, I'm not exactly happy with this role - I feel like I was missold. That I was hired as a database designer who happened to have some marketing experience, and they had me working essentially as an account manager who occasionally mucked about with a database.

I really don't understand how things have spiralled out of control so quickly. I thought I was doing well at this job.

I'm also quite scared to have had such an uncontrollable rage attack. It almost seems like, although they've done a lot to help my *depression*, if anything the medication has actually made my moodswings and unpredictable behaviour worse. This was a surprise to me. I've got an emergency appointment scheduled with my Dr. tomorrow but right now I'm completely freaked out.

There have been places where I've never had a problem. The last ad agency, we swore at each other all the time, went off and had a pint, and were fine the next day. At the NHS and the Nutricionist, I felt respected and appreciated enough that I never *had* rumbles with anyone.

Does this mean I just shouldn't work in the private sector? Or should just work part time/contract? I'm just at a total loss to understand my own behaviour.

there's something to be said for getting a job in the public sector-- really seems they hate to fire people. i don't know, i've shouted at people at my job and it turned out ok.

i wonder if the timing was just weird in this situation. i mean, if you'd spoken to the alpha female directly and sorted things out, maybe HR/department head didn't know that? i guess it's too late now, but yeah, i probably would have explained that you'd sorted it yourselves and see if that improved the situation.

in any case, good luck finding something you like!

Here are the symptoms 5-HTP basically cured for me: inability to focus, which led to frustration, anger and depression, not to mention social problems in general. I also stopped feeling the need to drink my troubles away during the week. At this point, I basically only drink around the holidays (and I've noticed I don't like alcohol because it fucks my head up and makes me moody).

5-HTP must be "all natural" because I buy it online with no perscription. It takes about a month to kick in. I have no idea about coming off other meds, though. I bet your doctor will not recommend it. From what I hear, they don't like 5-HTP because you don't need a prescription and can bypass them completely.

While it is mild, I recently stopped taking 5-HTP and noticed that my mind felt like shit after about a month. I finally put 2 and 2 together and now I feel good again just a few days back on the stuff. (That worries me, but fuck it, as long as I don't wake up and feel like killing myself, right?)

The timing was really shit. I should have spoken to AF before DH, but he collared me as I came back from taking five on the riverbank to calm down after the blowup. By the time I had spoken to AF, DH had contacted HR and agreed on termination.

I asked to speak to HR privately and confidentially after the conference call where I was sacked (yeah, tacky). And asked her to please state the reason for dismissal was my conduct, and unpredictable behaviour/moodswings, rather than the quality of my work (which is bullshit and they know it). Because that way I can at least take the termination letter to my doctor and say "look, this shit is fucking up my life, it is seriously affecting my ability to hold a job, sort out my medication, refer me to a psychiatrist, or get me some kind of anger management counselling or something."

It's not the demandingness of the job - that's never been a problem. It's *always* been personality conflicts.

I think the public sector would be a more understanding and more socially valuable use for your many skills and what's more, attitudes to mental heath issues have to be absolutely by-the-book or else it's hello constructive dismissal tribunal.

Although I do have a few questions:

... I really had high hopes for this job, and was really pleased with it, ...

...frankly, I'm not exactly happy with this role - I feel like I was missold...

Is there a good reason for this contradiction?

I'd like to think it was because she genuinely cared, but I think it's more likely she fears a handicapped discrimination lawsuit.

She asked "why didn't you tell DH this? I'm sure he would have been more understanding of your behaviour yesterday"

I told her "I specifically didn't tell him because if I had, I wouldn't have been hired, because people avoid the mentally ill for precisely that reason." Also, I did not want to play it like some kind of sympathy card or "get out of work free" card. The LAST thing I want is pity, or special treatment.

all the best!

So if the HR lady was sypathetic, what is she going to do about it?!!

This definitely does not mean you're unsuited to the private sector or to full time work or anything like that. Everyone has mini-fights with colleagues now and then, especially at my office. It's tough not to take this personally but they didn't necessarily fire you cos they didn't like you even if they make noises about personality clashes. People can not get on and still work in the same office.

Good luck looking for the next one (and at the doctor too).

Try not to deconstruct/decipher the events leading up to the firing, it smells like a set-up from the start. Something similar once happened to me, a decision to sack was made months in advance and my supervisor just bided his time until my usefulness was depleted and he got the go-ahead. When it happened the reasons given were similarly absurd micro-managing stuff like "you yelled at a temp."

I'm afraid, too, that raising your voice is a sackable offence in many offices so you do have to watch it.

Is there a good reason for this contradiction?

Not actually a contradiction. Changing attitudes to a job as it develops. I had high happy hopes for the job when I started it. After being told at a disciplinary meeting "we're unhappy with your work because you never use the phone, and you email the clients rather than calling them when there are problems" I felt the need to say "I was not HIRED as a client handler and I was specific to my agency that I didn't do phone work."

multi x-post now

In fact even though you sound fairly justified in your own outburst you just have to accept that you're just not allowed to say these things in business.

that's 100% otm. it's unfair, it sucks, it's often based on discriminatory policy or office double-standards, but one of the most important things in a job unfortunately is holding your tongue. especially with superiors.

But anyway. As soon as I had calmed down enough to speak without crying my eyes out (I hate that - when I get angry, I cry, which people see as some kind of ploy - it's an uncontrollable physical reaction) I tried to talk to the head of the department and say "there is a personality problem, can we do something to get around it, like change my chain of command?" and then again, after he said "no, I'm not changing your management, the ball's in your court" that's exactly what I did - went and tried to resolve it.

I *know* from experience that I'm not the easiest person to get along with. That's why I've spent years contracting, working part time, using email or alternate supervisors as a buffer.

But...you know, I've been working there for 6 weeks. I don't know her. I don't *get* cruel senses of humour. The observation that *I've* developed of her is that she is a bit of a princess and she bullies her way into getting things done. So we can say "oh, it's a misunderstanding" when she explained "oh no, I wasn't hassling you, I was actually trying to help you" but I do think there is a fundamental difference of style there.

My boss told my coworkers that I am dating a clueless Franz Ferdinand / Killers fangirl!

There is of course the possibility that from the company's POV, since you are still on probation, it's much the easiest thing to get rid of you rather than try to solve any problems.

It's true about the public sector, btw, it's damn near impossible to get fired!

Some people ARE "unemployable," in a very modern sense. It's not a bad thing, it just means they have to work extra hard to find a steady job that's a good fit.

As for the sacking situation:
Any manager worth their salt can appreciate when someone is making an effort and to continually pester someone about a task you know is already in hand is simply bad management.

That said, you say it has happened before and may be connected to your medication and/or depression. Without actually witnessing the shouting match it's difficult to say how (dis)proportionate your reaction was to the situation.

What I'm trying to say is that just because you have had "rage attacks" in the past doesn't mean this one wasn't justified. 'exploded into a shouting match' sounds to me like you weren't the only one to lose control. You attempted to deal with the situation head on afterwards and your management look to have handled it with less maturity than you did.

As you said, the job was missold to you anyway, so maybe it was for the best to get out now before the strain of doing something you were uncomfortable with became unbearable.

often, i think the problems can occur if you are invested in the kind of work you do (which is what you get if you have an interesting job!). i have no investment in mine, i like to keep a low profile, and i never show any emotion here, but thats easy for me to do...because i dont care what happens here (flipside is, i dont really get anything out of work other than cash)

suXoR tho

I was asked at the interview when I was hired, what motivates me - I responded 1) praise - I like to be told I'm doing a good job (they never did) 2) sense of satisfaction, that I think I'm doing something worthwhile. I just couldn't get my care on for discount long distance phone companies and insurance.

Jody, what you say is useful, and I think I should be more honest in the future about what I will/won't do up front. I thought I *was* being very plain about it.

Or, if I am muttering and growling, and saying "I'm working on it, can you wait a moment!" then they might figure out I'm peturbed about something.

(Though I suppose I growl so much at the computer anyway it might be hard to tell.)

Perhaps she might have told me that, rather than just assuming that her nattering randomly to the top of my monitor while I tried to work meant we were having a conversation, rather than her pestering me.

This sucks big time.

I know what my "problem areas" are and I know that I do excellent work when I'm allowed to sit there and focus on the actual thing that I was hired to do instead of doing bullshit multitasking.

Oh, how I relate to this. I'm terrible at anything even remotely administrative. I can organize my own work, but I could give a shit about organizing anyone else's. And I don't like to deal with people. I'm bad at sales, bad at customer service, bad at walking down a crowded street some days. And I have a problem with authority. And I don't take direction well. I'm a pretty bad employee from a conventional corporate standpoint, truth be told. What I do really well is sit quietly in front of a computer all day, undisturbed, and complete tasks that no one else in the office understands how to complete. Someday my job will consist exclusively of that. God willing.

unless of course you work in an industry that's been downsizing a ton lately. in which case, this sucks.

I'm getting to the point where I can no longer write it off as "bad luck" or whatever. There's definitely a pattern here and a very negative one.

it's the second sentence of her post.

Kate, I went through a similar stage of being totally intolerant of my work colleagues about two years ago and realised that I had to mention it to my boss. If there is a justification for the way you are behaving, you're much better being honest about it or else, let's face it, you are going to keep being sacked for not behaving in an appropriate manner in the workplace.

(The fact that my boss then became a total arsehole, as documented on other threads, is neither here nor there. I knew had a reason for the way I'd become, and verbalising/formalising it gave me strength in my own mind, which was worth more to me than any feeling that I could just get by exploding at my colleagues, fundamentally because I was going to get sacked, and I knew I didn't deserve to be.)

She may be a diva, she may be a silly cow who isn't fit to lace your boots work-wise. But, at the end of the day, she is (or was) your manager, and if you can't bite your tongue and respect that, then your employers are well within their rights to find that they can't work with you. Sit at work, do what you are paid to do, count to ten, ignore people, and find ways to work off your frustration when you get the hell out of there at 5 o'clock (I don't recommend drinking until you make all your friends hate you, from personal experience). It's not easy, and if you can't do it somewhere, move somewhere else where you can.

I resigned the job I mentioned above, lost out on a whole stack of money I would have been entitled to, didn't even get a sniff of a temping job for three months, and couldn't even claim benefits since I'd resigned, apparently without good reason. And I went through six months of the most thankless temp jobs on earth before (touch wood) finding the perfect-ish job. Sure I hate it sometimes, and could strangle my colleagues. But I've learnt to get over it.

If you still find you can't do that, then, as has been mentioned by many above, there are plenty other options open to you. Get back into music. Freelance. The world's your oyster, and being unhappy as well as depressed (trust me, I know the difference) isn't doing you any favours at all.

Good luck.

lots of folx are unemployable--and its becaue the way the market works and not how people wowrk, and if i had a million dollars, everyone would get love but i dont, so maybe a hug.

I want this jop too! Wouldn't it be great if we worked in the same place, only we had to organise each other's work?

Kate - I think there is one positive side to all this - you may keep getting fired, but you do also keep getting new jobs. So maybe the next one will be The One.

that said, while yr post was 'clever' in STYLE, its SUBSTANCE is LACKING rather considerably.

which is to say, if you consider amateurist's post any more PRACTICAL than ned's, or any of the following, you're dumb.

x-post

The thing is, if the manager fits in the organization and has seniority and things are running smoothly, except you guys clash, asking for another boss is basically asking Department Head to take your side and mess with your manager's job duties. One always has to be careful about going over the boss's head, it's usually not done & if you're not careful and don't have a real good reason you'll probably lose, plain and simple, no matter who you are. The department head is going to have to work with your manager & other managers for a long time; that will be hard if he is known for taking the side of a new hire over that of longtime employees. In a way, the substance of the dispute is irrelevant..

I mean, the bottom line is that if you're new and on the bottom of the totem pole at an organization, but plan to stay there a while, you have to kind of suck it up and put up with people's quirks and BS.

respect is a two-way street. you have to earn respect, esp. from your so-called "superiors," people who are either above you hierarchically or organizationally or have just been doing things longer than you have. at the same time, however, those people have to earn your respect as well, and it is complete bullshit to expect anyone -- no matter how low they are on the totem pole -- to render respect automatically.

i don't think i've ever found what i'm looking for, but definitely some things i've been more suited for than others. some industries, while i hate to make generalizations, are clearly not places where i feel i would belong in any way (and advertising, esp. on the client/account side, is one of them -- way too boys' club, sexist, hierarchical, and quite often antiquated thinking -- tho clearly there are exceptions to any rule). we all know kate has worked happily elsewhere, it's up there in the thread. to say it's just her "attitude" is a cop-out. different jobs assume different contexts and different work cultures, and i don't think anyone should feel bad about not fitting in to some place that doesn't welcome them (of course, the problem with jobs is that most employers -- even in today's shitty labor market -- are so desperate for competent employees that they'll pretend that their workplace problems don't exist).

However in this cutthroat shitty day and age the simple fact is many regular jobs mean behaving, toeing the line. ESPECIALLY during probation period. The corporate world for the most part just doesnt like to support difference. I have gotten in trouble before because my natural speaking voice is too loud (!!). I can't even tell, much of the time, thanks to a bit of a hearing problem, so people just snigger and bitch instead.

Im about to start a new job and I'm a bit nervy about the damn probation period, but I know its heads down bum up and be good. It just goes that way.

My other half is having clashes with his boss too; he seems to think as a jr artist/game designer he can outright tell the guy who runs the (small) company that he's wrong on things. And then he wonders why he gets in trouble. Some things, you Just Don't Do. Yeah it sucks.

except, its a hierarchy, people higher up have more power (and, in probation, you have no power whatsoever, they dont like your socks, and you're out). go head to head with a person higher than you. and you lose

Thats very true and perhaps the crux of many issues - it can be hard knowing where that line is drawn.

people above dont have to earn your respect. people above only run into trouble when there are a number of people below that have lost respect, when there arises a palpable loss, and the next person up from them in the foodchain notices

granting respect just because you're "expected" to or because someone is your superior is ultimately disrespectful, to both them and you.

people above dont have to earn your respect.

they don't, but usually they realize that if they can't earn it from you, they will look for it elsewhere.

perfect world, etc....

Most of the private sector is usually project based.. I've been taking project management courses, and I heard a frightening statistic about the amount of projects that fail. Of course, that's not all to do with an unhealthy personal work environment, but it's a big part of it.

then there's a respect that goes a little further than that, and yes i do think it has to be earned, and i don't think i'm idealistic or unrealistic for saying so.

Wouldn't it be nice if people communicated instead of gossiping and backstabbing?

Kate I'm really sorry to hear that it's gone wrong for you. As Trayce [and others] said, the corporate world is so idealistic and up-itself, there's no room for real people anymore. You have to be (a) someone else, or (b) an incredible bore in real life.

My last job was a horrible bloody thing that went for years. Towards the end I was wrenched out of my skilled position and thrown into what was essentially a receptionist's job, because the division restructured and I was the most inexperienced in my department [three years compared to 10+ years for just about everyone else]. That's when the depression hit hard, and that's when I started having weird uncontrollable outbursts in the office [having suddenly to deal with personal abuse from literally dozens of angry customers per day didn't help]. My very patient boss spoke to me about it, and I told him without going into detail that I was 'getting help'. I also said I'd take a package if one were offered. A few months later many redundancies were made and I received a package. Being utterly delighted with this, I thought 'bugger it, I've got nothing to lose' and told my boss all about the depression. To my surprise he was incredibly supportive. That's probably not the sort of thing you'd want to do in a probationary period though.

Anyway, I think what I'm saying is one day you'll get a job with people and a manager who are more tolerant than to terminate you on the back of one outburst, and are willing to focus on what you're good at. Such companies do exist.

i just switch off at work, i find it easier to just wash over me

interesting comment:

As Trayce [and others] said, the corporate world is so idealistic and up-itself, there's no room for real people anymore. You have to be (a) someone else, or (b) an incredible bore in real life.

i tend to agree that it's not the so-called "unreasonable" employee that is "idealistic" (or as dean notes wishing for a "perfect world") but that the corporate world is built on a complex web of anxieties about power, control that seems unrealistic with how human nature actually works. it's like free-marketers who want to insist, even in the face of mounting evidence, that all markets are "rational." rationality is an exception, not the rule.

Interestingly, in my 2nd interview the guy kept stressing the phone work, and said "see we've hired people we told about the phone work then they complained there was too much of it and left... you sure you ok working with clients?". Hell dude, its a job. I'll live.

get a job, amateurist.

well, free to leave i guess

i was thinking about stuff like this today when i was riding the subway through manhattan. i've got longish hair, old clothes, i haven't shaved in a couple days, and it's afternoon - whatever businessdudes in suits that came on the train looked at me like i was some kinda bum. i take a certain satisfaction in the fact that yes, i mostly am a bum, but at the moment i have a job that most of these sad schmoes would kill for, regardless of how much money i make or whatever.

xpost - no cause and no exchange

xxpost - suuuuure, amateurist - when are you gonna turn pro?

your grandfather was milton berle.

http://img.lightreading.com/2001/05/5414.gif

Work sucks. You just have to pretend that it's awesome and people think you're doing an awesome job.

My friend gave me some good advice. Act like when someone screws up that it fills you with a fiery passion. Get pissed off, act like your life depends on it.

Managers like that.

Of course I've only learned this in the past like, week.

=

http://img.lightreading.com/2001/05/5414.gif

OTM and profoundly beautiful.

Also, this talk about the public sector is interesting. As well as the legal and practical issues pertaining to staff turnover, it feels like a slightly different mindset permeates the public sector, no? It genuinely seems to attract people who can focus on the greater good (no, really!), who accept that sometimes a little friction is likely between people, and who don't feel as much need to 'win' by decisively cutting others down as a 'key' part of their 'results-driven' 'career plan.' [Of course my inner commie wants to reiterate that sh1tting on colleagues is unsurprising if not inevitable in the private corporation, where perpetual exploitation is instituted in company policy from the top down, etc, etc, but I won't do that]

seriously to kate, my sympathies, a shitty thing to happen, esp so soon after your birthday.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I have nothing to add to that

except
http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t052/T052498A.jpg
Judge: Your names, please, and state your professions.
Barker: Bernard Barker, anti-communist.
Judge: Anti-communist? That, sir, is not your average profession.
McCord: James McCord, security consultant.
Judge: With?
McCord: Government, uh, recently, uh, retired.
Judge: Where in the government?
McCord: [quietly] Central Intelligence Agency.

i mean... i'm sure kate's fight was not pleasant at all, yet i've seen much worse than that on a regular basis. like physical violence. and so and so would be escorted out of the building and come back the next day like nothing happened.

there was a guy who would get violent in his office over his computer malfunctioning... and granted this was not interpersonal stuff, but still... my shared office was right across the way.... "MOTHER CRUNKIN FUCK DAMN MOTHER!" crash boom etc etc. he was addicted to aspirin. we were dead sure that either:

a) his head was gonna explode one day.
b) he was gonna come in with a gun and go nuts.

hang in there kate.
m.

He just got sent home to "rest" for a while. He didnt get fired.

Mainly because there's a real reluctance and lack of reward in tackling poor performance at all levels. So you can have the most appalling manager getting into all sorts of situations (favouritism, fast-tracking of friends, fairly blatant discrimination, unprofesionally slagging people off) and a complete denial from people higher up the chain that there is any problem at all.

Also the worst crime in the public sector is to highlight a management problem which then needs to be addressed. All other avenues will be explored first, including you being moved.

Went to the doctor this morning - he agreed that the behaviour and thought processes I've been experiencing sound like classic manic episodes, which are an unfortunate side effect of the meds I'm on, and he has lowered the dosage.

Then he offered me a prescription for Valium as a short-term solution to the stresses and rage attacks. I told him no way in hell, since I had had past trouble with drug and alcohol dependence, (notably Klonopin - very similar to Valium) was I going to take a drug as addictive as Valium.

I asked to be referred for counselling, specifically anger management counselling, but he said that could take up to 6 months. When I started freaking out and saying "But I can't *WORK* because of this!" he said he would try to fast track the request, and also referred me to a psychiatrist.

I don't know what to do in the meantime - try to temp? Try to sign on? And yesterday's buzzy manic elation has given way to a total crash and I'm worried that this will trigger another major depression.

But these situations seem to be quite rare. I have noticed that in general these situations seem to be more in the "helping" professions - either 1) because I feel like I have more of a purpose to my work, to smooth over minor discontents or 2) because helping professions just attract more understanding and flexible people. This isn't synonymous with the public sector, it just happens to be so in this country.

I know from experience that I do *not* function well in jobs where there's a lot of "politics" or in places with strict heirarchies. It's just not the way my brain functions.

My immediate impression with this job, when I was hired was that it didn't suffer from this. (Possibly because Alpha Female was away when I was hired. Had she interviewed me, I'm not sure I would have taken the role.) As soon as I became aware of the power lines and delineations the job because less pleasant and more stressful.

Although I admit that I am pretty compulsive about ILX, if I'm turning to ILX more and more, and my job less, it's usually symptomatic of being not happy or bored with my job. When I'm engaged and busy, I don't have *time* for ILX. It's the same way as I've been since school, looking out the windows and daydreaming when classes bored me. (I went to 14 different schools in 12 years of schooling or whatever, so if it's a pattern, it's one that's been going on a long time.)

During my admonishment by the DH, his complaint that I emailed instead of phoning was followed by the dictum "Time is money and money is time in this business!!!" and I just stared at him, completely taken aback, and I wanted to ask him how old he was, and hadn't he figured out yet that there really *are* some things in life that are more important than money?

I've also been told to contact MIND for mental health issues.

I've only ever had it offered once. If things get too bad I might ask about it.

-Using voice-mail to take messages (without slowing down the overall response time) if phone calls make you anxious.
-A quiet workspace to avoid distractions and aid concentration, or being able to work from home.
-Changing your supervisor, if another would be more flexible.
Restructuring a job or temporarily reallocating some of the duties (for example, ‘front-line’ work).
-Using email when face-to-face contact is too stressful.
-Flexible hours to accommodate therapy, medical appointments, rush-hour pressures or the morning grogginess associated with some medicines.
-On-the-job support, or permission for a support worker to come in or to be contacted during work hours.
-Permission to take time out when distressed, or when it would prevent getting high or overtired. This could just be a few minutes away from the workstation, going out for some air, or having a short rest.
-A workstation by a window, or a lightbox, if you have seasonal affective disorder.

(my italics to indicate that these were all things that I had asked for and was denied.)

The MIND website looks like a great resource, though. I'm not keen on those little "So You Have Manic Depression" booklets, but some of the other ones - knowing your rights, how to return to work after mental illness - have some very good advice.

Of course, this only applies if you've actually declared the disability, so too late for that last job. But worth bearing in mind for the future.

Employers are so much less savvy about mental health needs than physical (often through no real fault of their own) - we should make them aware!

Essentially I'm left alone in my own office with my computer to do my job, talk to/email others only when I absolutely need to do so (meetings etc.) and it seems to have worked out OK.

Bingo.

This made me smile.

Basically, I think that suck-it-up-and-deal-itude is an important life (school, work, love) skill. (I also think that everybody has his or her own package of strengths and weaknesses; some things are just harder for some people than others.)

But it's so hard to praise suck-it-up-and-deal-itude, or encourage people to suck it up and deal, without sounding like you're blaming the victim or apologizing for the system.

So I guess I sympathize with Kate while also thinking that Amateurist did the best job Amateurist could have done in treading that very very fine line.

and i haven't even BEGUN to describe the stupidity of yer average NYC bureaucrat.

It was weird, I just felt really really uncomfortable talking to complete strangers, and let alone having to sell them ticket passages that cost more than my monthly rent. I can deal with people face-to-face at a store or whatnot, but over the phone it felt...I dunno....kinda creepy.

1) Try to find a job that is suited more towards your skill set. Try to focus on doing that job well and find aspects of it which make you feel more personally fulfilled. At the very least, try to find the best way to deal with the financial / social ramifications of a necessary job.

2) Define yourself as someone with a mental illness and see what kind of like you can have under those guidelines.

Yeah, you're right. I don't have the right to yell at people at work or go into manic episodes or rages or panic attacks while on the job. But, for some reason, I *do* think that I have the right to have a job and a work environment where I don't get put under the stress and the pressure and lack of consideration for my stated needs that drives me to such extremes.

It's taken me a long time to admit that I do have some kind of a problem (mental, behavioural or otherwise) and to seek help for it. The LAST thing that I want to do is play the victim or think that the world should be rearranged for me. But a person in a wheelchair would not be expected to work in a job where they have to climb stairs - in fact, there are laws that workplaces have to make concessions to enable people in wheelchairs to be able to work their jobs.

I never told my boss that I was in treatment for mental illness because I did not want to be discriminated against and face the utter lack of understanding that a few idiots have shown on this thread.

Anyway, whatever. It's over, I've learned a couple of lessons here. There are certain kinds of environments for which I am not suited. I remember now that I left the advertising world for a reason. There are more important things in life than money - one's health being one of them. (The most recent event at work before I left was DH basically telling one of his staff flat out to cancel her doctors' appointment and blood tests in order to go on a business trip. What kind of attitude does that show towards one's staff, that the job is more important than their health?)

I've learned that I should make it more clear up front what my capacities and needs are. That I should pick my working environment much more carefully. That I need to seek help - counselling, psychiatry, whatever - in order to learn to control my moodswings rather than letting them control me.

I *have* had jobs in the past which have been much suited for myself and my abilities/problems. I've spent the past three years working part time, or contract work with flexibility being the main point. I know my own mind best, and should continue to persue the things which I have found effective.

Thanks, Andrew. I really hope so.

The annoying thing (or perhaps the blessing in disguise) is that in my official notice letter which I got yesterday, I am legally not allowed to work until their notice period is over (I guess they're afraid I'm going to run off to a rival ad agency and go "hey, you know what?" or something.)

So I have a week to think about it, and plan and mull over my next step - try to get some kind of official help (benefits or access to some kind of job placement for nutjobs) or whether to go back to agencies to try and get more contract work, or what.

If you can't at least try to be sensitive and polite, would you mind please taking it off this thread? Thanks.

Kate, how long a notice period is that?

Oh, and Suzy, I will be in your hood later today with a stranded American. She's v. cool, you'd really like her, would it be OK if we dropped by for tea? I'll ring you after lunch.

I was going to elaborate but Kate and Marcello said what I was going to say.

My tolerance for this kind of thing grows less as I grow older. I read that and thought that this person deserves to be SHOT.

I wish you luck, Kate, but I'm sorry to say I have no advice to offer, I've never worked in an office environment, and then only time I haven't been self-employed wasn't a happy one (like, the guy I worked for docked my pay when I was sick & stuff like that)

Oh, I did think of one thing - don't ever, EVER work in retail.

It is INCREDIBLY frustrating when in the course of trying to help yourself and the people you have to work and live with by seeking out psychiatric help and the right medication for a very specific mental health issue, that office politics and being asked to perform duties which run counter to an agreed job description have to fuck it up for everyone. Line managers always resent their attention being drawn to issues like that, creating many situations where people get fired for exactly the resons they were intitially recruited. Kate's employers have lost a very gifted worker. Luckily for Kate, she is eminently MORE employable than the people on this thread who have been needling her and will find the right fit eventually.

Not an empty threat at all. I'll give you a fight if you want one. Email me and we can sort something out. I fancy cracking a few skulls right now.

Yes but it was the logged-out-ness that I thought was rudest.

You're a boring clown.

Yes but it was the logged-out-ness that I thought was rudest.

I agree. I think the heart of the issue goes back to Amateurist's post in that there is a pattern here and it indicates a problem that needs to be dealt with. Perhaps an internet forum is not necessarily the most proper way of getting immediate care. That sort of discussion definitely advances the notion of wanting to see one's self as a victim but not looking to make much change to solve the problem at hand.

Kate's ignoring'em, so lets do the same.

You're a pathetic paedophile loser.

mark otm, I retire from this exchange.

That's what I fear the most about *run-ins* (or whatever you call'em). Suddenly it's at a point where you can't really stop and say:"Let's talk this over and see what's wrong." All the good things get *lost* somehow. Again, sorry to hear about this. :-(

If you view ILx as being the equivalent of a pub conversation, then how would you feel if a stranger suddenly burst into the pub, came up to your table and started ranting abusively at you?

That's a pretty chaotic, sprawling, multi-permutating conversation you've got there

How about the equivalent of a local pub, then? A lot of friends, a lot more people you feel you vaguely know, and a lot of conversations all going on at once.

so i'm just wondering if it's inevitable that the latter will always attract the former in the end, if it's just another facet of human behaviour, for better or worse (because everyone seems to believe that deep down their approach is the/a right one).

aw, i should have invited myself to your tea party! just had my hair cut, and rushed back to work like a good girl only to find TWO people in the whole office, boo.

anyway, i think kate is dealing with the situation in the best possible way-- trying to use the system to get help, taking some time to think about what kind of work is best, and spending time with friends since she's got the time to do that. well done!

But this kind of bothers me :

**But, for some reason, I *do* think that I have the right to have a job and a work environment where I don't get put under the stress and the pressure and lack of consideration for my stated needs that drives me to such extremes.**

I think you should recognize that this is very unlikely to happen. You might be lucky and find a sympathetic boss somewhere, but the honest truth is that work is a pretty harsh place and no-one really gives a fuck about going easy on people with 'stated needs'.
It might be better in the public sector, I don't know, but in the private sector - forget it.

You're a task-focused person I'd say. That means that you like to get a job done, take pride in doing it well and expect to be judged on the quality of work done. I am one, so I recognize it in some of the things you say. There are also people-focused people, who regard making good relationships between them and other people more important - often their work is full of holes, but they get by on force of personality - either dominant or popular, for example. Yr boss sounds like one of these. The problem is that task-focused people take criticism of their work as a criticism of THEM. It sounds like this triggered the flare-up you described upthread. You have to find a way to get over this. Often people who you don't like or respect will say something about your work that is untrue or unfair. Often the same people will ask you to do something that you feel you shouldn't be doing or shouldn't have to do. For example, I seem to remember in your last but one firing, you lost it because someone asked to sit with you while you ran some reports. In these cases you have to find a way to a) take the criticism without blowing up and b) putting up with irksome tasks that you probably rightly shouldn't do. Well you don't HAVE to, but if you want to keep getting that cheque at the end of the month, you probably should.

Here I strongly disagree with something Suzy said ""being asked to perform duties which run counter to an agreed job description have to fuck it up for everyone". This idea that you have to stick to set-in-stone job descriptions is I think a dangerous attitude. Clearly if you're hired as a programmer you don't expect to sit on the reception desk all day, but you have to be flexible. As long as it's something that's not unethical, what does it matter? You get paid the same.

I'm not advocating a 'sit there and take all the shit' attitude, but there are ways that you can approach people about things you don't like without getting a bad rep. Also rudeness or discrimination is unnacceptable and should be pointed out. Sadly, just expect anyone to do anything about it. I would say that during a probation period you're best off accepting some stuff with good grace or if you can't stand it, leaving with dignity. You're certainly not in a position to ask them to find you a new boss who you can get along with better.

Like I said, I really hope things work out.

i think there was an element of unfairness in the way kate was treated, both by the immediate boss and the higher ups. it takes two to argue yet she bore the brunt of it.

struck me just this morning how many of the people here are really good at what they do but somehow don't fit into normal working environments, are unhappy where they are or are avoiding it as much as they can. makes me wish there was some other way of being productive and working for the common good but without all the shit that goes with it.

(the other thing is the proportion of people here who are on medication... and which came first, the mentalism or the internet mentalism? do we listen to the smiths because we are miserable or are we miserable because we listen to the smiths? 8)

i do hope kate gets to choose her new job, as she mentions above, but am worried that such choice, for everybody, is increasingly rare. especially if 'why did you leave your last job?' is hard to answer.

Yes, there is no element of fairness. She bore the brunt because she was new and on probation and because HR and snr mgmt will always pick on the weakest and most dispensible in a situation like this. They are not interested in what is 'fair' or what the truth is. Also they want to avoid loss of face and to make an 'example' maybe. It's shit, but that's how it works.

By the way, never assume that HR is ever anything more than a tool of management. Never expect them to defend you or back you up in a dispute. They will always do what they are told by mgmt.

'Sadly, just DON'T expect anyone to do anything about it' towards the end of my last-but-one post.

the HR point is v important in dr c's post. they aren't there for you, they are there for the company, and they are NOT to be trusted

OTM (This was a large factor in my wife leaving in HR and deciding to become an opera singer.)

**But, for some reason, I *do* think that I have the right to have a job and a work environment where I don't get put under the stress and the pressure and lack of consideration for my stated needs that drives me to such extremes.**

as being somewhat off-the-mark. Frankly speaking, I don't know anyone who finds their work environment supportive, managable, and appreciating of their mental health. That's why it's work. A company's job isn't to make you feel appreciated (unfortunate, and shitty), it's to perform a marketable service. And saying ... "that drives me to such extremes" sort of indicates to me that you haven't located at least PART of the problem within yourself.

I mean this in the most supportive way possible, but: everybody hates their job much of the time and keeps plugging away at it. That you may / may not have some psychological precondition making you feel more acutely about this is not a reason for your workplace to cater to your tempramentality. At least - and especially - during a probationary period.

I'd suggest that you (excepting some egregious and flagrently-abusive incident) try to get work, and suffer through another probationary period taking any minor shit flung your way. Like the stupid song - people are strange when you're a stranger - and you have to detach your ego from the grand crapulence at work to realize that what goes on isn't really directed at YOU as much as it's directed at a NEW PERSON. It's unfair to be tested, but it's universal and (unfortunately) accepted. If you prove yourself by keeping an even keel, some kind of acceptable demeanor, and make yourself an ally or two, the shit will diminish markedly after some time.

anyway jeremy pretty much OTM.

**what goes on isn't really directed at YOU as much as it's directed at a NEW PERSON**

I'd say it's often not really about YOU at all, even as a new person. It's all about a whole slew of history, frustrations, ambitions, jealousies etc etc which people carry around at work and which you can't possibly know about. In other words, it's all about THEM not you. Even if you were to try and 'understand' why people behave like such asshats at work, you wouldn't be any the wiser. Little of it would make any sense and no-one ever changes.

You have to make a contract with yourself that you will not let cockfarming behaviour get you down or deflect you from your task in hand - getting your salary. Of course, it's difficult at first because you don't know what to expect. That's the time for cultivating a blandly helpful, but firm persona to get you through probabtion. You can be more like yourself later on.

If you can delay that til post probationary period all the better.

However, just a couple of points which will probably thankfully be lost in the wasteland of the weekend.

1. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the whole "If you start a personal thread on ILX, you deserve to get anonymous trolls and flamewars - that's just the way it is" attitude. It kind of smacks of "If a woman wears a sexy outfit, she deserves to get harrassed and/or raped." Just because something tends to turn out a certain way, it doesn't mean that it is right. Yes, you pays your money and you takes your chances, but that doesn't mean you can't try to make ILX a more sensitive/tolerant place.

2. Where does the idea come from that work *has* to be a hostile environment. Two selected quotes showing this attitude:

I think you should recognize that this is very unlikely to happen. You might be lucky and find a sympathetic boss somewhere, but the honest truth is that work is a pretty harsh place and no-one really gives a fuck about going easy on people with 'stated needs'.
It might be better in the public sector, I don't know, but in the private sector - forget it.

everybody hates their job much of the time and keeps plugging away at it. That you may / may not have some psychological precondition making you feel more acutely about this is not a reason for your workplace to cater to your tempramentality.

I think it's kind of a sad reflection on our culture that so many people take this to be the norm, or even expected.

I've worked in literally dozen of workplaces, and I can tell you from experience, it *doesn't* have to be the case. It's very much down to corporate culture, and more often, the personality of the supervisor, but I know from experience that places exist where the above is *NOT* the case. Maybe it takes time and effort to find them, and it's one of the advantages for consulting/contracting.

I just think it's sad that people have got to a point where they naturally expect their job to suck. But maybe that's another thread...

I don't think that I'm asking for anything unreasonable - in fact, many of the small concessions I have asked for were, as stated above, things *LISTED* in the MIND handbook as appropriate for people returning to work after mental illness. (Not to mention the legal aspect in this country.)

In the past, I have found employers willing to give me flexibility and concessions with regards to stress-inducing circumstances - and these employers have been rewarded with excellent work from me - I have a fistful of personal references to prove it. It's just a pity that they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

I agree. And I agree that it's *possible* to find somewhere that's OK to work, just not easy to. As for corporate culture - in the majority of industries, including services, there's a massive pressure to deliver higher profits with lower costs. This pressure sets the tone of the culture, and determines the way that individuals behave. Ask anyone who's been working for more than 10 years - everyone has to do more, faster and 'better' these days - with less help and less support. Training is a cost that many companies don't bother with. So the pressure on individual managers is to deliver results that match increasingly impossible targets. The last thing middle-management wants is the extra hassle of making allowances for someone who needs 'concessions'. It's really fucking sad, because a lot of talent is wasted or ignored in this climate, but that's just the way it is. Increasingly I don't think that employers want 'talent' any more - or let's say that their definition of talent means someone who will work a 60 hour week and not rock the boat.

That's my experience. You say that yours is different - maybe I'm looking on the bleak side. I hope so, Kate, and I hope you get sorted out with something good v.soon.

I don't believe anyone here actually said that. What was being said was more in terms of "If you start a personal thread on ILX, you are more likely to get anonymous trolls and flamewars." In fact you are likely to get these things if you start any thread on a public open-access message board; whether you like it or not, it's like that and that's the way it is.

The problem with publishing your exam papers in public is that they get marked by strangers.

It's a very sad reflection that this s the norm. I'm very lucky that I have a very understanding and helpful environment. If kate's bosses had been in my caompany they would probably got a warning for behaving like that. It hasn't always been like this but our new MD and COO have turned round the environment in the company in the last 6 months, there's a lot more respect between people and everything seems more productive, we're doing more business anyway.

There is no reason for management to be a tyranny and even someone on probabtion has some rights even if they are merely moral ones. There's only one way we judge probationary people here, on the quality of their work and their ability to learn skills and this is made clear at the start. Everything like this is written down in a stated proceedure, there is hardly anything that can be done on the tyranical whim of management.

Maybe it's a small company thing; you can get everyone who works here into one room.

**There is no reason for management to be a tyranny**

It doesn't have to be a *tyranny* to create a difficult environment to work if you require extra support. Spineless management and managers who automatically suck up to the next level as a reflex would be just as likely to fail a probationer. As would the 'anything for a quiet life' manager.

Fuck a office job.

so, i've already been into two staffing places since. let's see where this goes.

altho, i should probably go back on my ADD meds at some point, since i get REAL distracted during the day.

apparently, i wasn't considered "part of the herd," which has to do with the company's choice of iconography.

but yeah, no word, no warning, nobody telling me that i should change something, just that.

well that's the thing. they're a big retail bank in the west, and they use alot of old west/pioneer imagery, as it were.

i'm not too worried. i just got my tax refund! screw you, evil harpy bitches!

Kingfish, many condolences. Losing a job for no reason is the worst way.

Too much time in England has given you a taste for 'La Vice Anglais' it seems.

HAHAHA. govt. employees working in obsolete systems politicized into complete uselessness are so much funner to deal with.

Yay! Oh wait.

Anyway, Access is easy, Kingfish. Piece of cake.

and now the oregon unemployment folks are telling me that i can't get benefits until i straigten shit out with the michigan unemployment folks that i had to talk to last year. oh such fun.

ouch. (and thank you sir, may i have another?)

The things I've gotten yelled at are the little things, getting to work 5 mintues late the one day the boss comes in on time, leaving the coffee can out on the sink, not writing down the phone number of a friend who calls (who calls every day and is a best friend). . . . Which is hard, because if I got yelled out for forgetting to do something important, I could understand, but getting yelled out for little things just causes me to lose all respect for the yellee.

also, the temp lady called today with another loan processor gig at another local lender. i wonder if it'd be best if i should take what i can get immediately just to eat, or hold out til i get a full underwriter gig again which would more than cover all my financial problems for the time being.

two tomorrow, one on thursday. plus two "teaching auditions" for the two main college test prep places. here goes nuthin'.

plus, i've made a big spreadsheet on excel/open office to track who i talk to, for what positiong, when, and when to call back.

so far, i'm still in the easy part. the guy i interviewed with last night wants me to start tomorrow, but i'm holding off since i also have an interview for a full-on underwriter gig tomorrow as well.

Hahaha, I'd totally stay if that was the case! =)

best of luck though with seeking re-employment/meeting the friendly advisors down the local job centre (if thats where youre headed, i mean)....!

*groan*

of course, i have difficulty following my own advice, but it's there for what its worth.

i need to find an engineering job again, but i am probably short-changing myself for what i can do. i know i'll get one eventually, but it's all in the details on how to get there.

plus, i still have problems calling people cold to follow-up about my own resumes. i.e. am i worth putting myself forward?

i've worked at mega-huge mortgage joints, and also little 5-10 person offices. one place was effectively a cattle call for 2000 people in a cube sea, and the tiny places my bosses were either bass players for local bands, or were quoted as saying "If i gotta be here for 10 hours, then i'm coming in wearing shorts." Which effectively ended any sort of dress code.

the environment can be pretty key to a lot of things, and can make the work you're doing go down a lot smoother.

for the first time in 4 years, i have a tech job again.