White Smoke At The Vatican

-- Colin Meeder (amisrau...), April 19th, 2005. (later)

My thoughts exactly.

yeah, this is the RCC not the Wu-Tang Clan.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/rankingmonkey/ilx/spacepope.jpg

the newsdroids are way, way too giddy. this is totally dull, you might as well get excited over the NFL draft.

racist as i am i hope it's a colored person, Dan or not.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/europe/04/19/pope.tuesday/top.pope.balcony.jpg

I don't think he has a chance, though.

he obv doesnt care about the stain that name has in American history haha...no one here is ever given that first name

Heh.

ELECTORAL FRAUD! POPE DAN DENIED!

(Sorry, Anthony, but I think reflexive humor is as much a part of this whole thing as solemnity.)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

Some cardinals die and go to heaven. The first goes into a conference with god and a few minutes later comes out weeping, "How could I have been so wrong?" The second goes in, same result. Finally Ratzinger goes in and a few minutes later God comes out weeping, "How could I have been so wrong?"

(I'm going to hell, so I might as well enjoy the trip.)

Hm, you mean they've kicked the guy upstairs as the equivalent of a gold watch?

you'd have to ask an altarboy.

I hope there is significant Jewish outcry over this.

If he wanted the instant favor, he would have called himself Pope Usher.

I don't think Jews got to vote in this.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

along with a lot of other disturbing things re: his stance on EVERYTHING (which we already knew anyway).

Maybe the Jesuits will leave the church and I can again feel religious.

i wonder why the first two attempts at voting were unfruitful if this was so "predictable"...hmmm

And so the Catholic church accelerates its turn toward authoritarianism, hostility to modernity, assertion of papal supremacy and quashing of internal debate and dissent. We are back to the nineteenth century. Maybe this is a necessary moment. Maybe pressing this movement to its logical conclusion will clarify things. But those of us who are struggling against what our Church is becoming, and the repressive priorities it is embracing, can only contemplate a form of despair. The Grand Inquisitor, who has essentially run the Church for the last few years, is now the public face. John Paul II will soon be seen as a liberal. The hard right has now cemented its complete control of the Catholic church. And so ... to prayer. What else do we now have?

"On Nov. 25, 1981, John Paul II brought him to Rome as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith -- formerly known as the Holy Office and before that as the Holy Inquisition."

So the new pope really has "something of the night" about him (or at the very least "something of the right"): the Hitler Youth and the Spanish Inquisition are not terribly promising associations, and neither is his authoritarian habit of sending lefty "liberation theologians" into exile and early retirement:

"In May 1985, Ratzinger notified Franciscan Fr. Leonardo Boff that he was to be silenced. Boff, a Brazilian, was a leading figure in liberation theology, a Third World theological movement that seeks to place the church on the side of the poor. Boff accepted Ratzinger’s verdict and withdrew to a Franciscan monastery in Petrópolis, outside Rio de Janeiro."

I'm interested in why the world seems to keep swinging ever further right. Is there something reassuring about right wingers, even cute? I think it's perhaps something to do with identity politics, unlikely though that may seem. Right wing fundamentalists concentrate the identity, the brand, of the organisations, bodies, or societies they represent. An anti-immigration prime minister makes Britain more "british", an anti-liberation theology pope makes Catholicism more Catholic (but less "catholic", natch). People want things to have the simplest, most ridid identities rather than to be supple, open, flexible, wishy washy. Who wants a pope who's a "flip flopper" or a "backslider"?

http://www.basilrathbone.net/films/robinhood/rh05a.jpg

This isn't an election result from the world though. He was elected by 115 cardinals, all of them who are quite old and probably not that much in touch with the world. If all the world's Catholics had a say in who was to the next pope, it would have been a very different results.

As a catholic myself, I'm dreading this papacy. But then even by the end of John Paul II's reign, Ratzinger probably had quite a bit of imput into the church's doctrine anyway.

as cruel as it may sound, he's old and he may die relatively soon. let's hope that he's the church's chernenko to its eventual gorbachev.

http://www.all-pictures-photos.com/images/joe-pesci/joe-pesci-002-img.jpg

Yeah, I think that is the big tendency (although I don't think it will necessarily prevail given environmental meltdown). It's just this reactionary little counter-swing we're in right now that's so perplexing.

That was his old job. His new job will to be to calm the nerves of old ladies still reeling from Vatican II and die in a few years.

No, that's the one after this one. That's why I was kinda hoping for a younger pope.

Tomorrow is Hitler's birthday, FWIW.

Creeping relativism.

x-post

http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article41.htm

WTF?

As such, he has also taken some uncompromising political positions, calling for pro-abortion politicians to be denied communion during the US election campaign for instance, or arguing that Turkey should not be admitted into the European Union."

Fucker!!

Pope John Paul II

Pope #110 on St. Malachy's list is given the phrase: “From the Labor of the Sun.” [4] What kind of labor does the sun do? The sun's work, so to speak, is to travel around the earth. The sun constantly travels around the world. And so does Pope John Paul II. He is the most traveled Pope in history. His Pontificate is marked by his constant travels around the world. St. Malachy's phrase fits John Paul II's Pontificate precisely.

Nostradamus lines are given better explanations.

"The Pope and the clergy with him will be taken captive by the Arab forces. They will be taken to Syria (Riblah is an ancient city in Syria) and put on trial. The leader of Iraq (“king of Babylon”) will pass judgment against the Pope and the clergy who were captured with him and also some members of the clergy of Syria. They will slaughter these members of the clergy as the Pope watches. Next, they will put out the eyes of the Pope, so that the last thing he sees is the death of his fellow clergy. Then they will bind the Pope in fetters and take him to Iraq, where he will be imprisoned. The phrase “yet he shall not see it” means that he will be held prisoner without being able to see the country in which he is held captive because he has been blinded. The Pope will die in a prison in Iraq with no one to rescue him. This Pope, Peter the Roman, will die a martyr for the Faith. (What an unusual time we live in, when Sacred Scripture itself tells us about one Pope after another.)

"...My own interpretation of the Bible places the destruction of Rome and Vatican City in July of A.D. 2013... The Arabs forces will win World War III and will occupy a vast territory for many years. They will oppress and persecute Christians. In the 2030's, this persecution will become very severe. The Arab forces will massacre many Christians. They will hunt down priests and religious and devout Catholics to imprison, torture, and kill them. Millions of Catholic Christians will be killed. This massacre will take place over several years.

"In the mid to late 2030's, in World War IV, the Allied nations will attack the lands occupied by the Arab forces. This war will be even more severe than World War III. Many nuclear weapons will be used..." etc etc

"Ronald L. Conte Jr.
November 14, 2004
Copyright 2004

"[In an earlier version of this article, I thought that John Paul II would die in 2003. Then I thought, 2004. I am fallible. Also, in the previous version of this article, I thought that Pope Benedict XVI would die in 2009, now I think 2009 or 2010.]"

I suspect that some of Pope Rottweiler's fans are neither old nor female (or Catholic, for that matter).

of course they can! they can't make you stop talking, but they can make it quite clear that you're outside the circle - the catholic church is not a democracy nor the sum of its parts, it's a top-down family with a father at the head, and what he says goes, and that's very much by design: wishing it were otherwise, however ardently, will never make it so

I will always have love for the church but am quite happy to have left it

the church is to large to be contained by one man, the children kill the father.

anthony the church is not a literary movement, it's an institution, while it grows it doesn't grow to contain every tendency that sprouts up within it, and it certainly doesn't accomodate every modern philosophical leaning that desires her imprimatur. a schism is necessary for the changes you'd like; the church can no more embrace every radical tendency, however politically appealing, than it can allow polytheism

Who, incidentally, should be in prison for conspiracy to commit rape.

What is that supposed to mean?

(no rhythm method, that's cheating)

What is that supposed to mean?

perhaps, oh I dunno, the american xtian right?

Actually, Anthony is right - historically, there has been a great deal of flexibility toward the bottom of the church - in the parishes and in the orders. That's really how the church has survived for so long.

John Paul II has recently been lauded as fighting Communism, but he also spoke to the danger of unchecked capitalism. Asshat.

He and the pope have disagreed. By most accounts, Ratzinger was harder on liberation theology than John Paul, who sympathized with its critique of the cruelties of capitalism. There is also a temperamental difference. The pope is, observers say, an optimist with a huge mystical streak, while Ratzinger has often suggested that Christianity may need to become smaller and less culturally significant in order to remain faithful.

let's hope you get your wish, mr. ratzinger.

BBC News 24 mentioned the possibility of retirement at 80, which would give him a couple of years almost exactly. They said Ratzinger himself had mentioned it in the past. Whether or not it'll happen remains to be seen.

Being a member of the Hitler Youth was compulsory at the time...
Indeed. My grandmother was in it and mobody in here family was a member of the Nazi Party. My great-grandfather was a policeman and the Nazis respected him for his service even though he disagreed with the Nazis politically; in consequence, their family was kept close tabs on by the Nazis because of this, but the Nazis never did anything to them.

First Bush, now this. Why dost thine God tease me so?

Ratzinger has often suggested that Christianity may need to become smaller and less culturally significant in order to remain faithful.

I read about this concept in Resident Aliens and, though it would certainly exclude me from the Kingdom of God, thought the argument was fairly (in retrospect, scarily) convincing.

White Rose, anyone?

"I realized that she (Sophie Scholl) was the same age as me, and I realized that she was executed the same year I started working for Hitler. At that moment, I really sensed it was no excuse to be young and that it might have been possible to find out what was going on." -- Traudl Junge, Blind Spot: Hitler's Secretary

http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/index.html

Right, exactly: in the parishes and in the orders. The Holy Father's job is not to spearhead but to represent. Vatican II, for all its controversy, was less an announcement of new policy than a description of what had been happening in the trenches, a response to realities. Wanting the doctrinal leader to start red-penciling all the troublesome parts of the Church seems like wishing Catholicism would be, y'know, more like me, which, while I understand it, is itself rather un-Catholic.

Change "Christianity" to "Catholicism" (that arrogant "universal" church!) and I wonder if this isn't inevitable. I've said this before about western Catholics versus the Vatican. It's one thing to ask for social and administrative changes in the church, but when it comes to genuine religious tenets it seems fair enough for the Vatican to declare that this is the faith, and if you don't believe it you'll have to sort that out for yourself; a religion is the last entity that should be expected to roll with the changing beliefs of its more affluent members. "Strong" religion will roll on either way in Latin America and Africa, and Americans and Europeans will have to face up to their increasing cognitive dissonance about actually believing in the more specific tenets of their faith. And my guess is that apart from the huge cultural stumble that'd imply -- because Catholicism in the U.S. at least is way more about group culture than, say, believing in transubstantiation -- a lot of westerner groups might actually wind up happier mainstreaming even further than a la carte Catholicism.

Which, for the record, I feel bad typing, because I don't at all question the faith of western Catholics and I'd take no joy in seeing them increasingly cut off from their religious structure. I think all I mean is that if the options are for, say, (a) American Catholics to take a stand on their drifting from (or at least reinterpreting) religious tenets, or (b) for the Vatican to soften up and reconsider those beliefs, in the interest of appeasing them, well ... the first option seems like the more honest one, even if it's not the one with the better outcome. (A big split between increasingly hardcore Catholicism in the third world and increasingly free-thinking Americans -- no fun for anyone involved.)

that and the kiddie fucking.

Bush Hails Newly Elected Pope Benedict

43 minutes ago White House - AP

By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Tuesday called newly elected Pope Benedict XVI a "man of great wisdom and knowledge."

He is "a man who serves the Lord," Bush said of the pope, formerly Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who has been a leading church hard-liner.

Bush, standing next to first lady Laura Bush, recalled how they had listened to Ratzinger's homily at Pope John Paul II's funeral 11 days earlier.

"We remember well his sermon at the pope's funeral in Rome, how his words touched our hearts and the hearts of millions," Bush said. "We join with our fellow citizens and millions around the world who pray for continued strength and wisdom as His Holiness leads the Catholic Church."

Bush spoke to reporters on the South Lawn after returning from Springfield, Ill., where he attended the dedication of the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum. The president learned that Ratzinger had been elected as he was leaving the library event.

Earlier this month, Bush became the first sitting U.S. president to attend a papal funeral. He called Pope John Paul II a man who faced down totalitarianism and showed communist rulers that "moral truth had legions of its own."

At the State Department, spokesman Adam Ereli said the United States welcomed the announcement of the new pope.

"We look forward to working with His Holiness and the Holy See to build upon our already excellent bilateral relationship and to promote human dignity across the world," Ereli said.

That's My Bush!

nabisco: this recent new york review of books article, on the activities of evangelical protestants in sub-saharan africa, may be of interest to you. it should also be noted that the evangelicals have been VERY active -- and VERY successful -- in latin america.

It's your love of the first syllable of her first name. Deny it not.

I must go now. Will be back later.

Benedikt XVI

Benedetto XVI

Benoît XVI

Benedicto XVI

Genius.

"He puts the "pop" in pope. No, wait, he takes the "pop" out of pope."
"Rock'n'roll -- and the papacy -- has always been about black leather and hints of Nazism. And you should see him in black leather."
"He looks like a heavy motherfucker but he's a really lovely little guy. I call him Rat Scabies."
"He hates me and I'm obviously never getting invited to the Vatican again."

http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/_saruman.jpg

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

all instutitions of man are flawed. even the church. as such, times must change on occasion. there's a definite difference being trendy and being wise/insightful. there's several practices of the catholic church that are more traditional than biblical anyway. which hey, i guess that's something i'll have to just beg to differ on with catholics cause for them church authority is probably on par with biblical authority... whereas in protestant land, biblical authority is more important than church authority. if it's not in the book, it's generally more a matter of taste. (which is sort of a loaded statement with more caveats than i'd care to go into.)

i'm just saying that things like celibacy for priests and nuns is not really very biblical and is more reflective of a church choice made in the past. changing that is not on par with suddenly allowing adultery or something. "bingo orgy 7pm saturday night!"

i mean, the bible has some pro-slavery statements but you don't hear a lot of pro-slavery these days. christians in taking part in the debate over slavery were having these same discussions christians have over women's roles in the church and so on.

the bible was written by people in a time and in a culture that was fairly oppressive and as such they were somewhat careful about survival instincts and message. it's core tenets make women and men, slaves and masters equals just as gentiles were made the equals of the jews as far as salvation from death is concerned... but it sort of leaves the harsh physical realities in place. gettin on jesus's team doesn't suddenly make you rich and hot and smart and never sick. doesn't mean work suddenly rules and so on.

if times and attitudes change for the better of christian beliefs, the core beliefs of love/mercy/justice, christians shouldn't resist them.

that's my long winded two cents at least,
m.

well, there was this farmer who had a dog ...

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict acted to preserve the legacy of John Paul on Thursday as details emerged of how he swept to an overwhelming victory in a secret conclave.

Benedict --a close doctrinal ally of Pope John Paul -- made clear on the third day of his papacy that he would stick to his predecessor's conservative policies when he confirmed top posts at the head of the Vatican government.

The cardinals' vote for German Joseph Ratzinger, John Paul's doctrinal enforcer for 23 years, showed they wanted continuity and rejected a reformist change of course....

benedettoxvi@vatican.va

"Oohhhhhhhhhhhhhh - 69! Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh - 69!"

(sorry.)

SUB: GREETINGS FROM NIGERIA

http://norbizness.com/archives/ratzinger.jpg

http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail.asp?id=15799

God moves in mysterious ways?

Do fuck off and die. I mean it this time.

Fuck you.

ROME (Reuters) - Une voiture d'occasion qui aurait appartenu à un certain Joseph Kardinal Ratzinger a été mise en vente sur le site d'enchères eBay et pourrait être adjugée plus d'un million d'euros.

Le véhicule, une Wolkswagen Golf gris métallisé de 1999, a été mise à prix 9.900 euros mercredi sur le site eBay allemand (www.ebay.de). Un peu plus de 24 heures et 300 enchères plus tard, elle se négocie à un million d'euros.

Le vendeur est un jeune Allemand de 21 ans, qui dit avoir acheté la voiture en juin à un revendeur à Olpe, près de Cologne, dans l'ouest du pays. Un porte-parole de e-Bay, cité par l'édition en ligne du journal Bild, a déclaré que le commissaire-priseur en ligne avait vérifié auprès des services d'immatriculation que le nom du premier propriétaire était bien réel.

Holy beetles!

can we not make jokes on this one, please--come on, some respect.
― anthony, Tuesday, 19 April 2005 15:35 (10 years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed5FZpwRlxA