Being "Too Nice" means you get no dates.

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So says well, just about everyone. There's one of those silly-arsed life advice things in today's Guardian where this comes up again.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1498046,00.html

I think depresssingly that it's true, and this drives me up the wall. Who in their right *mind* is put off someone because they are not arrogant enough? Who isn't attracted to nice people? What's the MATTER with everyone?

Is being 'Too Nice' not getting you dates? Is being a b*stard getting you loads? Can anyone who hates Too Nice-ness explain why?

― Niceguys, Friday, 3 June 2005 08:32 (twenty years ago)

OH GOD DO WE HAVE TO DO THIS WE HAVE ONE OF THESE EVERY TWO DAYS OH COME ON YOU KNOW HOW THIS WILL END: IN TEARS

― N_RQ, Friday, 3 June 2005 08:35 (twenty years ago)

How does one become a bastard?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:38 (twenty years ago)

"being nice" vs being nice.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:39 (twenty years ago)

i don't care about the main problem but the one for next week at the bottom of the page makes me want to slap that woman hard.

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:42 (twenty years ago)

I've always been attracted to arrogant bastards. Which probably explains why i'm single now.

― leigh (leigh), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:44 (twenty years ago)

Mean Lex!

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:44 (twenty years ago)

i'm attracted to nice guys. unfortunately i don't know any though.

― gem (trisk), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:45 (twenty years ago)

yeah but seriously, they were only going out for THREE MONTHS before the dozy cow gets herself pregnant? no wonder he's resentful and wants nothing to do with her.

xpost

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:45 (twenty years ago)

i never really had "dates" anyway. do english people do "dates"?

― N_RQ, Friday, 3 June 2005 08:48 (twenty years ago)

Nice people are attractive and wanted by loads of people it's just that often the nice person is too stupid to realise it, or doesn't want to lead someone on so tends to behave in an evasive and unattractive fashion...

(NB this is probably not generalisable)

― edward o (edwardo), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:52 (twenty years ago)

before the dozy cow gets herself pregnant? no wonder he's resentful and wants nothing to do with her.

Yeah not like he had any control over the matter...!

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:54 (twenty years ago)

no you see it clearly wasn't his sperm that she got herself impregnated with

― gem (trisk), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:56 (twenty years ago)

"Observer Agony Aunt agrees with premise" shock horror youth cult probe

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:56 (twenty years ago)

yeah but seriously, they were only going out for THREE MONTHS before the dozy cow gets herself pregnant?

oh come now, that's not a very nice thing to say about britney spears!

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:56 (twenty years ago)

Pretending to act like a bastard might well get you lots of dates, but they'd be dates with the kind of girls who are primarily attracted to bastards, i.e. the sort of girls who like Bad Boys because they see them as some kind of 'project' they can work on, or girls with low self-esteem who are so used to being treated like shit that they just expect it now, or high maintenance girls who get their kicks out of being bitchy to their bastard boyfriends ..... none of these things would, I think, be conducive to a happy and functioning relationship.

There are lots of guys out there who do act like bastards towards girls, and lots of girls who behave appallingly towards guys. But there are also lots of really nice people out there, so if you are one of those then I think you should just carry on being yourself because in time you'll attract someone with similar qualities, rather that trying to attract just anyone based on presenting a false image of yourself simply to get tail.

― C J (C J), Friday, 3 June 2005 08:58 (twenty years ago)

what is a "bad boy"?

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:00 (twenty years ago)

You have to ask?

― C J (C J), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:01 (twenty years ago)

yeah.

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:02 (twenty years ago)

They stick together.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:02 (twenty years ago)

i got hung up about not having a girlfriend was i was 16: looking back, no-one i knew *really* did, get me? and it would have been really bad and in some ways i'm glad i didn't. i wish i hadn't been so hung up though, because in lots of ways it was an incredibly happy time.

i'm a bad boy, with a lotta hoes
drive my own carand wear my own clothes

― N_Rq, Friday, 3 June 2005 09:02 (twenty years ago)

For Bad Boy, think Colin Farrell.

― C J (C J), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:05 (twenty years ago)

eww.

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:05 (twenty years ago)

i think p diddy

― N_RQ, Friday, 3 June 2005 09:06 (twenty years ago)

I used to feel inadequate for not having a girlfriend when I was at school, but in reality hardly any of us did, apart from the big guys in the rugby team who had about seven girlfriends each, one for each day of the week.

As I said on another thread somewhere recently, I did have several opportunities/offers, but I usually rejected these on the grounds that, because I didn't consider myself "attractive," I invariably thought that they were simply taking the piss.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:07 (twenty years ago)

see i'm trying to figure out if i like "bad boys" and the best i can do is that they're usually aloof and/or ornery in some way. but no, like, motorcycles or hookers.

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:10 (twenty years ago)

A guy who is aloof is different from a guy who jerks you around/cheats on you all the time though, no?

― C J (C J), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:13 (twenty years ago)

Now I've just accepted that I'm going to be single for the rest of my life and I'll just have to make the best of it. Can't say I'm thrilled at the prospect, but I'll put up with it if needs be.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:13 (twenty years ago)

i am nice. things have gone well.

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:13 (twenty years ago)

A guy who is aloof is different from a guy who jerks you around/cheats on you all the time though, no?

one would hope.

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:14 (twenty years ago)

people like confidence shocker

― charltonlido (gareth), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:14 (twenty years ago)

but are there really women out there that say "wow, you know, i want a guy that's gonna jerk me around! that's hawt!"?

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:15 (twenty years ago)

Depends how confidently they jerk them around, I guess.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:16 (twenty years ago)

i guess!

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:17 (twenty years ago)

Everyone’s nice on their 1st date, aren’t they?

I’ve been on dates where I’ve been nice & it’s never worked.

Just be yourself, if they don’t like you, so what no one dies.

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:18 (twenty years ago)

Well no, you crawl back home and a little bit of you dies...

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:20 (twenty years ago)

there's that "be yourself" advice again...

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:21 (twenty years ago)

instead of being yourself, you should try and be your dad. see you have the same genes and whatever he did got him a wife.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:26 (twenty years ago)

Yes, be myself - a widowed social cripple with Asperger's, claustrophobia and irreparable self-hatred. That's really going to attract the ladies, isn't it?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:26 (twenty years ago)

beat yourself.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:26 (twenty years ago)

I'm already doing that on a daily basis.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:27 (twenty years ago)

be will self

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:27 (twenty years ago)

i'm a bit like will self, in the flesh.

― N_RQ, Friday, 3 June 2005 09:29 (twenty years ago)

You don't die; you're a bit low for a few days that’s all.

I went on a date with a girl I met at a party; I thought it was going ok, but I was wrong. She didn’t want to see me again. On my ten-minute walk home, I thought so what, yeah she was nice looking and seemed like a nice girl but I (the nice nervous guy) wasn’t her type. That’s it.

Ever since I’ve been myself on dates, and I do fine.

I’m still alive to tell the tale, so hey no one dies!

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:31 (twenty years ago)

i can never tell if i'm nice or not (the whole of ilx chimes in: "you're not"). i try to be nice-but-not-too-nice (when situations call for it), but i don't think people actually take me seriously unless i'm being a hard-ass.

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:31 (twenty years ago)

My trouble is not to do with niceness, but the fact that I don't consider myself prepossessing in any way, thus usually (and as it turns out, rightly) get paranoid that the Potential Other will find me boring.

That's it, really. I'm boring. A boring bastard. Sums it up succinctly.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:35 (twenty years ago)

If you try to be anything, then you’re not you. Just act like you do on a day-to-day basis with your friends.

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:37 (twenty years ago)

But if I "act" then I'm not me, am I?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:37 (twenty years ago)

Also I have no friends so it's all academic really.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:38 (twenty years ago)

instead of being yourself, you should try and be your dad. see you have the same genes and whatever he did got him a wife.
-- ken c (pykachu10...), June 3rd, 2005.

great!

― piscesboy, Friday, 3 June 2005 09:39 (twenty years ago)

Mariella says: If you just sit in a corner looking surly but aloof you're pretty much guaranteed any woman you want.

Err... never fucking worked for me.

― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:39 (twenty years ago)

*eyes perk up*

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:40 (twenty years ago)

why is trying to be something not being yourself?

what is 'yourself'. are you the same with every single person you know, or are you slightly different. do you treat you boss, your mum, your housemate, your friends, your dealer, the same? or do they all see a slightly different you. which one of those 'yous' is you being yourself?

― charltonlido (gareth), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:40 (twenty years ago)

everyone acts the minute they interact. interact/act

― charltonlido (gareth), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:41 (twenty years ago)

the one that is you when you're on your own

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:42 (twenty years ago)

well xpost

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:42 (twenty years ago)

we're always acting. that's how we shape our social personalities.

ken c: "if a tree falls" etc.

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:43 (twenty years ago)

"If you just sit in a corner looking surly but aloof you're pretty much guaranteed any woman you want."

if this were even remotely true i'd be up to my neck in it.

― N_RQ, Friday, 3 June 2005 09:43 (twenty years ago)

Mariella says: If you just sit in a corner looking surly but aloof you're pretty much guaranteed any woman you want.

er... works for me.

ps how do you do the italic thing???

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:44 (twenty years ago)

i think the idea is not to put up a front that you can't sustain.. like if you say you like baxendale, but in fact you hate any bands beginning with b.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:45 (twenty years ago)

or at least, not to put up a front that you can't sustain until you got some ass.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:45 (twenty years ago)

the one that is you when you're on your own

Err, no. The one that picks its nose, sprawls inelegantly and generally relaxes thoroughly is not a side that is fit for public consumption. 'Be entertaining' is more a more valid piece of advice. If only entertaining to yourself.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:46 (twenty years ago)

OTM

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:47 (twenty years ago)

e.g. in the example i gave, just as we are about to bone my date might pump up the Baxendale on the stereo and then my hard-on disappears resulting in no sex

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:47 (twenty years ago)

tmi, ken

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:48 (twenty years ago)

The one that picks its nose, sprawls inelegantly

oh but i don't do that.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:48 (twenty years ago)

My arse you don't.

― Liz :x (Liz :x), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:49 (twenty years ago)

i wasn't being myself when you saw me do it

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:49 (twenty years ago)

why is trying to be something not being yourself?

What makes you think I have a dealer?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:52 (twenty years ago)

If you act different like saying (quote ken c) “like if you say you like baxendale, but in fact you hate any bands beginning with b” then the other person is gonna think you’re something you’re not. It’ll come back to haunt you. (Rrrrrargh) like that!!!

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:54 (twenty years ago)

car dealer?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

there's a word for that. "lying." (xpost)

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

i think ken had a point about 'how you act on your own being the 'true' self', but i suppose this is just one facet of the many that constitute the overall you. hippy.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:57 (twenty years ago)

xxx post something like that....

der

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:58 (twenty years ago)

"It'll be easier in your 30s"

'but only because by then you'll have given up completely'

ha ha

(sobs)

― koogs (koogs), Friday, 3 June 2005 09:59 (twenty years ago)

i'm in my 30s, i'm far from giving up.

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 3 June 2005 10:11 (twenty years ago)

your not much 'like' anything when you're alone, you're not talking (usually). it's no mroe the true you than anything else.

― N_RQ, Friday, 3 June 2005 10:14 (twenty years ago)

This is another thread that I read and think: "bloody hell, I am really Marcello. But uglier."

ps how do you do the italic thing???

<i>by typing this</i>

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 3 June 2005 10:16 (twenty years ago)

marcello posted pics on this thread?

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 10:22 (twenty years ago)

Marcello has never posted pics on ANY thread! And with good reason, as those who remember me from my FAP-attending days will recall.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 10:34 (twenty years ago)

And neither have I! Yet more similarities!

― caitlin (caitlin), Friday, 3 June 2005 10:37 (twenty years ago)

...but just to give you an idea...separated at birth, take my word for it...

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 June 2005 10:38 (twenty years ago)

Being "Too n0!z3!!!" means you get no dates.

― caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:04 (twenty years ago)

Marcello, whoever that guy is, he doesn't look bad at all!

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

And I was gonna say, "But you have posted your pics Caitlin!", but then I remembered it was the other Caitlin, who prominently enough popped on the thread right then.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

hi dere tuomas

― caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

A plot!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:36 (twenty years ago)

Hi Caitlin! Haven't seen you around these plains lately, so it's nice to hear from you.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

Why can so few people get their heads around the fact that 'being an evil bastard' and 'being a pathetically insecure geek who is scared to ask anyone out' are not antonyms, and that there are other possibilities?

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:48 (twenty years ago)

God - that Mariella is really awful as an agony aunt

Her advice on this one really pissed me off big time.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,,1384572,00.html

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:50 (twenty years ago)

thanks caitlin

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

tuomas, i haven't had internet for a while! i'm in tennessee! ok you guys can go back to talking about how ugly you all are now! sorry to interrupt.

― caitlin oh no (caitxa1), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, from what I hear carrying a guitar in your back is the surest way to get girls. If you can't play it though, prepare a good explanation just in case you're asked to ("My muse has left me, and I simply cannot touch the strings until someone will fill the void. Could it be you?").

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 3 June 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

i'd be pretty offended if i were rejected for being too nice, as I'm a pretty big asshole, actually.

― Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Friday, 3 June 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

Maybe they just didn't scrape deep enough.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 3 June 2005 12:22 (twenty years ago)

Er, I mean, metaphorically speaking...

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 3 June 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

Why can so few people get their heads around the fact that 'being an evil bastard' and 'being a pathetically insecure geek who is scared to ask anyone out' are not antonyms

exactly martin! being an insecure geek/shy is not the same as being nice. being forward isn't being a bastard!

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 12:29 (twenty years ago)

If some woman ever tells you you are too nice to date, punch her in the stomach and say "Am I too nice now, huh bitch?".

Maybe she will then date you when you have been discharged from jail.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 3 June 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

HI DERE EVRBODEE

― BARMS, Friday, 3 June 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)

i disagree with that toumas, it's a complete myth. You have to be at least moderately cool first, and have the social skillz to pursue it. I'm trying to find pictures, but its not working. You cant be all pimply and pale from playing guitar in your room all day is what I mean.

i should know, i tried (zits and all), and it didnt work. my current girlfriend (thank god almighty im not in the dating system) is actually turned OFF by guitar slinging guys. so go figure.

― AaronK (AaronK), Friday, 3 June 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

It's not the Playing A Guitar, it's the Being In A Band.

My Whine On The Subject. Sigh.

Anyway, carry on. The cycle of repetitions of this thread subject is starting to worry me.

― The Square Root Of Negative Two (kate), Friday, 3 June 2005 13:12 (twenty years ago)

yeah, being in band is a good one! basically you want to be ON STAGE doing something cool, cos that's a position of power and respect. sexy sexy!! being a DJ has a similar effect. oooh yes.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 13:25 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, obviously you have to pick the right type of instrument to carry. I know lots of girls who're turned off by scruffy hippie type of guys constantly strumming their out-of-tune acoustic guitars in parks, so a guitar doesn't always work. If you want to get hipster girls, I think a saxophone or a keyboard would be better. The only intrument that'll get you nowhere is the bongo drum. No one thinks bongoists are cool.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 3 June 2005 13:29 (twenty years ago)

Men who are "too nice" usually appear to lack a personality and they often do, and women usually prefer to date someone who seems charismatic rather than tame, even if they are brash and cocky show-offs. More confident/arrogant (are those terms always synonymous like I think they are?) men, if they don't have a personality, have the capability at least to feign a personality and present themselves as something they're not -- provided that they don't have a nasty character that immediately displays itself. If you're well-versed in being polite or have politeness ingrained in you, possess honest charm and some charisma, have a personality that isn't false, and have enough things crossing your mind to possibly talk about in order to keep a date intrigued by you (provided that said potential intimate companion has an intellect/interest enough to continuously discuss such things with you), then you'll probably be noticed pretty easily if you've already had some sort of opportunity to make a positive impression on someone. However, trying to feign these things (if you're not -- for lack of a more efficient term -- "naturally" like this) will likely end up with you exposed as a charlatan in a later situation.

― Ian Riese-Moraine's all but an ark-lark! (Eastern Mantra), Friday, 3 June 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

Wow, I sound like a Situationist interpretation of a barber!

― Ian Riese-Moraine's all but an ark-lark! (Eastern Mantra), Friday, 3 June 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

Learn how to smile while being totally disgusting and rude: they will call it "charm"

― The Sensational Sulk (sexyDancer), Friday, 3 June 2005 13:33 (twenty years ago)

God, I love doing that ;-).

― BARMS, Friday, 3 June 2005 13:50 (twenty years ago)

You cant be all pimply and pale from playing guitar in your room all day is what I mean.

worked for billy corgan!

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

are we going to have to learn how to knife hobos all over again?

― teeny (teeny), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:20 (twenty years ago)

What's to learn?

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)

Making sure the knife doesn't get tangled up in thick, snotty strands of beard.

― BARMS, Friday, 3 June 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

Men who are "too nice" usually appear to lack a personality and they often do

OTM.

― AdrianB (AdrianB), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)

Or at least, their personality is a reactive, rather than proactive, one - they are unlikely to take the impetus in situations unless forced to, which isn't really traditionally masculine.

― AdrianB (AdrianB), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:30 (twenty years ago)

are we going to have to learn how to knife hobos all over again?

It's like riding a bicycle. It all comes back to you really easy.

instead of being yourself, you should try and be your dad. see you have the same genes and whatever he did got him a wife.
-- ken c (pykachu10...) (webmail), June 3rd, 2005 3:26 AM. (ken c) (later)

Great advice... if you want to date your mother.

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

Or at least, their personality is a reactive, rather than proactive, one - they are unlikely to take the impetus in situations unless forced to

Please be so kind as to excuse me for being so frank, but this is utter rubbish.

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:34 (twenty years ago)

I think "too nice" is often used as code for "too much of a pushover" or "too goddamned clingy". You can be nice (i.e. caring, considerate) without being a passive, whiny doormat.

― Tantrum The Cat (Tantrum The Cat), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:36 (twenty years ago)

Why is it rubbish? On what grounds?

― AdrianB (AdrianB), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:36 (twenty years ago)

I think "too nice" is often used as code for "too much of a pushover" or "too goddamned clingy". You can be nice (i.e. caring, considerate) without being a passive, whiny doormat.

VERY OTM.

― Ian Riese-Moraine's all but an ark-lark! (Eastern Mantra), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:40 (twenty years ago)

yeah, i think this idea of "nice" came from schooldays, when some teachers would praise the quiet kids as "nice" because they make their job of teaching easier.

but that's certainly not the way to be "nice" in adult life when it's in your role kind of to do things and help others give voice etc.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

Adrian, being 'nice' consists of consideration for others. That doesn't necessarily preclude being forceful about doing what you want to do. These reactive people of which you speak; some are nice and others are devious intriguers.

I agree about the 'too nice' designation but it's inexact. When you call a very passive person 'too nice' you're just being too nice to spell out the fact that they're boring, dependant, and predictable.

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:43 (twenty years ago)

I don't deny niceness does in part consist of consideration. Or that reactiveness can be present in both nice and nasty people.

My point was, some of those who are "too nice", the reason they appear to lack a personality is because they let events control them, rather than deciding what to do - it is their lack of forcefulness, the very factor you identify as being helpful and useful, which is their downfall. Hence one reason for their self-perceived romantic woes.

― AdrianB (AdrianB), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:47 (twenty years ago)

"too nice" also = "non-confrontational" which can be difficult to adapt to if you're a more direct person.

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:56 (twenty years ago)

Been discussed here before, but it bears revisiting:

http://www.blacktable.com/elder040212.htm

I don't agree with everything in this article, but it's very easy for men to fall into a self-fulfilling, nice-guys-finish-last mindtrap.

― Tantrum The Cat (Tantrum The Cat), Friday, 3 June 2005 14:58 (twenty years ago)

So what does the "too good" line mean? Because I've gotten that shit in the past more than once and what people don't seem to realize is how being "too good" for someone STILL MEANS you're left empty-handed. People think telling someone they're "too good" is some how complimentary. Actually, fuckhead, it's not.

― Je4nne ƒur¥ (Je4nne Fury), Friday, 3 June 2005 15:04 (twenty years ago)

it means "i'm an asshole and i don't feel like changing, so see ya."

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 3 June 2005 15:07 (twenty years ago)

I'm totally non-confrontational. I guess, I'm too nice usually. Sigh.

Man, you should see the rain here!

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 3 June 2005 15:15 (twenty years ago)

(i can jel. it's kinda good)

― koogs (koogs), Friday, 3 June 2005 15:23 (twenty years ago)

Yeah! dude!

Actually, I'm probably just too mute and unassuming to get dates, nevermind, hey!

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 3 June 2005 15:29 (twenty years ago)

"It's not the Playing A Guitar, it's the Being In A Band."

or more generally, accomplishing something that people generally admire on some level.

being in a shit band is probably not completely there either.

i've gotten the too nice tag intermittently in the past. i think then i finally realized that some of these girls were specifically into total assholes. that's their problem not mine. often it's a cop out/code word for a lack of magic. and again, if they don't feel it, that's their deal.

if you're consistently having this problem, you may want to be forthright with the ladies and try to get advice... "what didn't work? really. honestly. no cop outs. i can take it. no hard feelings."

you may learn that you have a few things to fix. you may also learn that she just is actually pretty damned incompatible but you were too busy staring at her boobs to care. at very least, i find the good will ending a better place to be. better friends than estranged. you never know, she may try to hook you up with a friend...
m.

― msp (mspa), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:13 (twenty years ago)

OTM, "Too nice/good/etc etc" are all code words for "I just don't like you like that." Except few people like to come out and bluntly say to someone they like well enough but not in any kind of attractiveness/sexual way "I never, ever want to have sex with you, you are completely not my type, I must've been drunk when I decided to go on a couple dates with you" (etc). So it's easier to say someone is "too (something good here)" and let them down easy.

There are certainly some females who are attracted to assholes but this "nice guys finish last" nonsense is a myth anyway cos a rather shocking proportion of the "nice guys" I know, or guys who were "nice guys not getting laid" but no longer fall into that category, were not getting laid because they were A) closet misogynists with not a single nice thing to say about the females of the species due to abject bitterness about lack of laying B) not actually bothering to HIT ON ANYONE EVER, thus defeating any chance of the getting laid or C) acted really desperate and nervous around any females. So, I mean, it's pretty possible to consider yourself a "nice guy", have your friends think of you as a "nice guy" but come off as a completely useless tosser around females of interest.

Doesn't apply to all people all places all times etc etc disclaimers here.

― Allyzay flies casual (allyzay), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:47 (twenty years ago)

That was an exact description of me for a few years of high school / college. Then I realized what I was doing, and decided it was a stupid way to act!

people like confidence shocker

OTM

― sleep (sleep), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:48 (twenty years ago)

Anyway, I don't want dates. I want figs.

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

i have this problem some times. i have a weird pathological fear of bothering women. maybe a little too sensitive from growing up with three very attractive older sisters and witnessing what they would go through--i didn't want to be one of those guys, meaning the creepy guys who would hit on my sisters. so it's always given me a distorted view of how women respond to being hit on, etc.

― ryan (ryan), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

also: i once read a book called Demonic Males which said that female gorillas will ALWAYS go off with a male gorilla if he literally kills her baby! it was pretty interesting--sexual selection favors violence, etc.

― ryan (ryan), Friday, 3 June 2005 16:55 (twenty years ago)

xpost: Allyzay OTM, cubed.

― Tantrum The Cat (Tantrum The Cat), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:18 (twenty years ago)

yeah, ally is right. Especially point B.

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:22 (twenty years ago)

Oh wow, ryan completely OTM also. I never really thought about that. I think that affected me but it's worn off somewhat over the years.

(er, the first post, not the one about he gorillas)

― sleep (sleep), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)

this is always funny because what is 'nice'? it's vague and meaningless. is it code for 'not very good-looking but don't beat people up'?

i see people with self-doubt, neediness, pushover-ness, no self-awareness or identity, or self-absorbed focus on getting someone/anyone rather than being drawn to someone for their uniqueness... call themselves 'nice' thereby denying they have any flaws (i can't get laid cuz chicks only like assholes).

― lolita corpus (lolitacorpus), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:27 (twenty years ago)

oh yeah, I concur with Ryan's first point as well. I just don't think it'd be appreciated if I hit on women, somehow. Man, I have issues.

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)

yeah i think that's a large part of it. there is another, less flattering part that i only recently realized was my problem too:

because i was so self-consciously trying to not be one of those guys i would somehow unconsciously think NOT hittting on someone made me seem cooler and more attractive. "hey im the guy NOT paying attention to you! you should want to go out with me!"

it's pretty fucked up really--but i'd bet a lot of money something similar goes on in the minds of lots of shy guys.

― ryan (ryan), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:32 (twenty years ago)

The problem is, people who focus on being "nice" - what are they doing? Niceness is nothing by itself, and is best used as a prop for actual qualities like intelligence, charm, wit etc. By concentrating on being "nice", these other necessary qualities are seldom developed or (if they are there) are seldom used. Use niceness in tandem with admirable things, not instead of them.

― AdrianB (AdrianB), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

that is, it's not that your too nice--and thinking your "too nice" is part of the damn problem.

x-post: exactly!

― ryan (ryan), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:35 (twenty years ago)

re: ally's post

yeah, when i had the nice guy woes, i was B with a chance of C. but i can relate to the, "not wanting to be a creep" syndrome. also, feeling shallow for hitting on girls at bars solely based on their looks/presence. actually, i still never got past that very well. and the times i forced myself to, i was sorely disappointed anyway. attractive doesn't mean dateable.

thanks to school, clubs, orgs, church, etc etc for a connection beyond just attraction. plus, it's an easy in towards conversation. "hi, i'm blah. so, why are you interested blahblah?" i could be shallow with an excuse!
m.

― msp (mspa), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)

I guess niceness just becomes a neutral trait, people won't love you for it, but they won't hate you either.

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)

i haven't even read most of it, but this thread is depressing me.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:45 (twenty years ago)

On a related note, I sat through some amateur standup comedy a couple of weekends ago. The one wannabe comic who stuck in my mind was doing a "nice guys finish last" schtick, insisting that he left any dance club he went to with blue balls, and that there should be a seperate category for "blue balls" charges on his VISA statement, and that those should qualify for medical coverage, blahblahblah, all the women at these clubs are cock-blockers , blahblahblah, I can't get laid to save my life, etc.

All I could think was "If you took half the time that you wasted on this laboured and thoroughly unfunny routine & put it into being less of a badly dressed, wisecracking, whiney milquetoast, then maybe you'd get laid and the world would be spared another shitty standup, 'cause you'd be out with your girlfriend."

I really should've yelled that out at him.

― Tantrum The Cat (Tantrum The Cat), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

if you think this is good, go check out the latest adventures of lonely toronto comma man. devastating.

xpost to jaymc

― sleep (sleep), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:51 (twenty years ago)

http://www.larabar.com/ing/dates.jpg
YOU MUST BE HARD BARGAINER IF'N Y'UNTZ THESE

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:52 (twenty years ago)

jaymc, don't be depressed - you're a total asshole!

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:54 (twenty years ago)

(j/k, obv.)

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:54 (twenty years ago)

jaymc, aren't going out on a date or soemthing soon?

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

I don't see why anyone would get so het up about getting dates, I mean, dates suck ass! It's like, sure, let's spend a couple hours feeling really awkward before one of us drops the other off to a lonely sexless home! Woohoo!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:57 (twenty years ago)

haha. jaymc, why so blue? like nick said, you're not nice at all, i'm sure you get waterfalls of poon tang.

― Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:57 (twenty years ago)

DON'T GO CHASING WATERFALLS

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

This thread is dumb anyways, I want to go all MARCELLO on it.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:59 (twenty years ago)

she hasn't returned my calls!!!

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 3 June 2005 17:59 (twenty years ago)

oh right because she is "busy." fuck that.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 3 June 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)

From what I remember on TITTWIS, she sounds like she may be a little flakey.

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 3 June 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

When she does call, you should say "I hope you're not busy now, because we're about to GET BUSY."

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 3 June 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

yeah, anyway.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 3 June 2005 18:04 (twenty years ago)

enough about me.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 3 June 2005 18:04 (twenty years ago)

Dude, I HAVE a girlfriend. So you have to take my advice, no matter how stupid or offensive it may seem.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 3 June 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

like that day the raccoons sang
out the tip of the cartoon's wang
buffoon's bang
on and on about the waterfalls of poontang
all of y'all get swoons, mang
don't worry 'bout no dates of doom, damn

― "waterfalls of poontang" by n. coleman & m. wright (nickalicious), Friday, 3 June 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)

tho' a funky beat on that and we'll be set!

― Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Friday, 3 June 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

'why does this thread keep happening?' maybe because every time it does everyone goes on and on about how the guy is clearly a loser and pathetic and insecure and so 'haha, it's all your fault'. (witness the males of ilx using a scapegoat as a way to exorcise the parts of themselves they like least.) sometimes this is true, sure, but marcello's link adds more to the picture:

Women, to put it politely, are contrary creatures. The more you act like you want them and are prepared to devote your entire being to their welfare the less they'll like you. The worse you treat them (and total lack of interest is a good starting point here) the more they'll clamour for you.
When it comes to women, the more effort you expend the less you are likely to get back.

true for everyone? likely not. but i'll say something really controversial and awful. the betterlooking a woman is by 'normal' standards, the more likely it is to be true. the women i know who are most open to 'nice guys' are also the ones who are least likely to turn heads when they walk into a pub. doesn't mean they're not beautiful to somebody, but they're usually not the women who EVERYONE thinks are hot. and that's because the 'hot' women get 'nice guy' interest all the time, and so many of them get turned on by guys who don't seem interested. more offbeat looking girls are sometimes hungrier for attention and respond better to interest.

another point: the rules change depending on how goodlooking you are for guys too. if you're hot, you can pull off the sit in a corner and look mysterious thing, or the dangerous and almost-violent thing, and so on. but if you're not, then if you sit in a corner, no one cares, and if you act like raging bull, you just seem silly. the tactics that work for goodlooking people, male or female, don't necessarily work for the rest of us. it's like clothes and how some people can wear a silly hat or cuttingedge fashion and still look good but other people look stupid when they try it. it sucks, but the point is, advice in these situations isn't always useful if it's coming from someone whose looks win them half the battle already.

one more: women like assholes sometimes because some women like not having to make decisions, or because they like the illusion of not having a choice, or because the role of victim is one they feel comfortable in. it's a dance that is for many people a LOT easier to dance than the dance of a healthy relationship. an abusive relationship can be comforting in an odd way, you give up freedom and stability, but so many decisions are made for you, the whole world reorganises around a mean sonofabitch who will take care of everything if only you can guess what he wants. reminds me of certain strains of xtianity, actually.

― no name given, Friday, 3 June 2005 21:26 (twenty years ago)

alot of this thread can kinda be summed up by saying, 'people want what they can't have.'

― no name given, Friday, 3 June 2005 21:31 (twenty years ago)

(witness the males of ilx using a scapegoat as a way to exorcise the parts of themselves they like least.)

Guilty as charged. I'll stick my neck out here and say that I've made
every mistake a guy can possibly make in a relationship. I've been "too nice", I've been the proverbial asshole, I've been distant, I've been clingy... it seems like the closest thing to a balance I've ever had is the relationship I'm in right now, and even that has seen its share of problems. I guess all that one can do is a) be realistic about desires and b) learn from past mistakes.

― Tantrum The Cat (Tantrum The Cat), Friday, 3 June 2005 21:42 (twenty years ago)

people like confidence shocker

OTM

I don't know, I always found coyness more charming. But then again, most of this thread's about males not getting dates, no females.

― Ian Riese-Moraine's all but an ark-lark! (Eastern Mantra), Friday, 3 June 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)

not females, even.

― Ian Riese-Moraine's all but an ark-lark! (Eastern Mantra), Friday, 3 June 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)

I DONT GET ANY DATES

― Homosexual II (Homosexual II), Friday, 3 June 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)

Shyness is nice, but shyness can stop you
From doing all the things in life you'd like to
Coyness is nice but coyness can stop you
From saying all the things in life you'd like to
So if there's something you'd like to try
If there's something you want to try
Ask me I can't say no, how could I?

― AdrianB (AdrianB), Friday, 3 June 2005 22:45 (twenty years ago)

being a sullen prick doesn't get you many either.

now off to the bar!

― strng hlkngtn, Friday, 3 June 2005 22:47 (twenty years ago)

"Demonic Males" is an interesting book, but I'd take it with a grain of salt, as many of the apes being studied were in positions of great stress against them and their environment, and were basically being given handouts of bananas by their studiers as their principle foodsource - which can produce aberrant (and violent) behaviours in any ape, including humans.

I think Ally is OTM about the B) guys who never hit on anyone, ever scenario as well. I've had this situation a couple of times lately, with blokes who I think are great, and attracted enough to them that I probably would date and/or sleep with them. But they never make a move! Which leads me to think that they aren't actually attracted to me, and just being "nice". I think there might be some truth to the idea ... not that women like to be "told what to do" - but that many women are insecure beasts, and would just like to feel *wanted*. Quite frankly, I'm sick of always having to make the first move (and often getting rebuffed and hurt in the process) so call it laziness or call it what you like, but he who *asks* gets.

Anyway, this is just turning into a self pity party for me, so I'll take it elsewhere.

― The Square Root Of Negative Two (kate), Saturday, 4 June 2005 12:25 (twenty years ago)

I DONT GET ANY DATES
They grow outside my flat every summer. I'll get some soon.

― Ian Riese-Moraine's all but an ark-lark! (Eastern Mantra), Saturday, 4 June 2005 12:35 (twenty years ago)

I've always thought bananas were a Bad Thing

― caitlin (caitlin), Saturday, 4 June 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

Anyone who asks, gets, Kate*? Or would the odds be improved by, say, offering a banana?

* I'm not sure if that second comma should stay.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 4 June 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

No, not anyone who asks gets, Martin - it's not a random thing. I guess I'm just obsessing about my particular situation. But if a person doesn't ask, they stand no chance of getting.

Never mind, I'm all torn up inside right now.

― The Square Root Of Negative Two (kate), Saturday, 4 June 2005 12:45 (twenty years ago)

definitely true

people spend a lot of time presuming. they wont like me, i dont have a chance, etc. 2 people do that, and you aren't going anywhere. its that simple really, get the ball into the penalty box and see what happens. no harm in a speculative lob

― charltonlido (gareth), Saturday, 4 June 2005 13:15 (twenty years ago)

To continue the metaphor, the last couple of times I've tried kicking towards goal the ball has bounced back and knocked me painfully to the ground. So, now I *do* assume that nobody will like me and I don't stand a chance, just because that is what careful experiment has revealed.

― caitlin (caitlin), Saturday, 4 June 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)

what about this 'holding back' recommendation in that guardian piece? does that mean men shd be looking mean and moody to create mystery, and not saying much, or do they just mean talk and blabber along but dont give away too much? cos i think i sometimes talk rubbish when nervous to stop there being awkward silences but i suppose if you do that, the mystery is out the window isnt it?

― ppp, Saturday, 4 June 2005 13:29 (twenty years ago)

yes, theres no guarantee putting the ball in the box is going to get a result, and, yes, failure hurts confidence. and lack of confidence makes it harder to get a good shot in next time. its a cycle

this entire thread, i think, can be summed up with that one word, 'confidence', and peoples misunderstanding of what confidence actually is (the confusion with arrogance, which is something else entirely)

― charltonlido (gareth), Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:10 (twenty years ago)

yeah, so ILXors need to get some therapy, that will help you all. it helped me!

― therapise, Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

B-but I ENJOY being perfectly abnormal!

― Ian Riese-Moraine's all but an ark-lark! (Eastern Mantra), Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:51 (twenty years ago)

Despite my comments above, I'm quite happy at the mo'. Toodle pip.

― jel -- (jel), Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

Charltonlido being very wise up there.

Sometimes, I think, rejection can actually be a confidence builder. Not if you're rejected by someone you've got some long-term crazy crush on, I admit. But just asking someone out, and getting a simple "No, thanks", isn't as devastating as you might think. And, as with anything, it's easier to sleep knowing you did something than wishing you'd had the guts to. Rejection just takes a bit of practice.

Also, I wonder whether some 'nice guys' feel a kind of post-feminist shame about admitting to finding the women they meet sexually attractive that is greater even than the shame of possible refusal.

― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:24 (twenty years ago)

being rejected isn't that bad, and in some cases i've remained good friends with people who rejected me (warning: you run the risk of your rejector saying to his/her buddies "haha, there was that time when _____ TOTALLY wanted me").

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 4 June 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

but i've had to do some rejecting too and it didn't always go over so smoothly... that's those spineless insecure males for ya!

― to let - flats (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 4 June 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

Footballing metaphors mean nothing to me.

I've come to the conclusion that the solitary life is the best option for me. I don't spend weekends in London any more; instead I just travel to different places, wander about on my own, take some pictures, soak up the atmosphere of whichever town or city or village I'm in. It does make a big psychological difference from the horrible bustle of you-don't-ask-you-don't-get-show-me-job-description-and-bank-statement-before-I-allow-you-to-talk-to-me London. I don't have to worry about acting the part of someone I'm not, or watching every word I say for fear it will be misinterpreted by any Potential Other in view of totally unknown grievous past personal history like I'm a mind-reader or something.

The life of a Rechabite, a total abstainer, awaits me.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 6 June 2005 05:32 (twenty years ago)

There is no such thing as "too nice" in my book. Bring em on!

― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 6 June 2005 05:36 (twenty years ago)

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