Why is it okay to judge how celebrities look?

you never have thoughts on how other people look *at all*?

But that was my question exactly: why does it work that way?

you never have thoughts on how other people look *at all*?

Sure, but if I meet a an obese person on the street, my I won't go and tell all my friends, "I met a fat man on the street today, boy was he fat! Har har har!".

(Would you have posted this thread if people were talking badly about someone you thought was ugly? Also, you do see the inherent irony in positing this question, then going on to judge a celebrity's looks, right?)

I was mainly talking about criticizing someone's looks. Few people find calling someone pretty offensive, unless you're at the same time implying someone else isn't.

You wouldn't? How odd.

So really the question is "is it okay to say negative (even if justifed) things about a stranger who doesn't have the chance to answer back". Tuomas, your lack of prejudice and your liberal attitude does you credit, but I think you need to achieve a bit more of a balance between mimsy idealism and real-world pragmatism.

Also, on the subject a little more, if all we saw of people was them in a state of naked naturalness*, then judging them on appearance would be indefensible. But we don't - most of *how* someone looks is a result of their own visual choices, and this is certainly a fair subject for discussion.

*okay, this is probably how it is in Finland

*part of the problem is this word, though.

"do you think she looks hot?"
"no...she looks like a pinch faced 5 year old girl who got into the strawberry jam"

As for my first sentence, I've always felt it should be okay to just say whatever the fuck, because quite frankly sticks and stones may break etc. I tend not to JUDGE anybody by how they look or their accent or the way they dress, I judge them on things like competence and manners and honesty. That doesn't stop me from making frank assessments of certain coworkers' flair for borderline-tacky style-of-the-minute metrosexual Banana Republic work outfits. Or spare tires. Or bad haircuts. I expect no less from anyone else.

i'm tired of people judging paris hilton!

Or worse still, only head to waist Tommy Bahama.

Ooh, oh, oh, ooh,

Everyday is so wonderful, then suddenly, it's hard to breathe
Now and then I get insecure, from all the pain
I'm so ashamed

I am beautiful no matter what they say
Words can't bring me down
I am beautiful in every single way
Yes words can't bring me down
So don't you bring me down today

To all your friends you're delirious
So consumed in all your doom
Trying hard to fill the emptiness, the pieces gone,
Left the puzzle undone, is that the way it is?

You are beautiful no matter what they say
Words can't bring you down, No, no
Cause you are beautiful in every single way
Yes words can't bring you down. Oh, no
So don't you bring me down today

No matter what we do,
No matter what we say,
We're the song inside the tune, full of beautiful mistakes
And everywhere we go, ( And everywhere we go)
the sun will always shine
( The sun will Always, Always, Shine)
And tomorrow we might awake on the other side

'Cause we are beautiful no matter what they say
Yes words won't bring us down, no
We are beautiful in every single way
Yes words can't bring us down, oh , no
So don't you bring me down today

Do you really think that is true? If random people began to stop you on the street and say, "Boy, you look ugly!", you wouldn't get hurt? Words won't break your bones, true, but they can break your ego, your self-confidence, your ability to love yourself. Ask anyone who was bullied in school because of their looks.

I tend not to JUDGE anybody by how they look or their accent or the way they dress, I judge them on things like competence and manners and honesty. That doesn't stop me from making frank assessments of certain coworkers' flair for borderline-tacky style-of-the-minute metrosexual Banana Republic work outfits. Or spare tires. Or bad haircuts. I expect no less from anyone else.

I think everyone is entitled to their style too; perhaps it's a less vulnerable spot than that part of your appearance you can't change, but still... If I'd bought a shirt I'd really like, and came to work wearing it, and first the thing I'd hear is some co-worker saying, "What a tacky shirt!", that'd certainly bring me down.

The bottom line is: I don't think it's ever okay to mock on the appearance of strangers. Think about how'd you feel, if you'd learn people you don't even know were talking about how silly your face looks. Perhaps Renee Zellweger just wanted to be an actor, without realizing what that entails. In principle at least actors don't sell their innate appearance, but their ability to act. And what about celebrities who's looks aren't part of their job at all. Are they free from mockery then?

by Lindsay Lohan, teen titty star

yes, that's certainly a realistic assessment of the history of the entertainment business.

"Y'know, She's got a real face for radio."

Bifocles, big head, short and skinny, late to puberty. Sounds about right. Maybe that's my problem, skin's too thick.

http://www.jerksquad.com/archives_v1/images/jerks/neil_scared.jpg

Best thing I ever got told was by my uncle, who pointed out that the cute little blond girls in my junior high who made my life stressful with their aesthetic judgements would be all washed up in the looks department by the time we left high school - that is, if they ever graduated!

Don't you feel then that people shouldn't be called upon things they have no choice over?

Take it from me, getting teased in school is the best way to develop superior put-down skills.

Well, it didn't do that for me, just left me with wounds it took ages to recover from. If that's the price of getting superior put-down skills, I'd rather not learn them. Today, I'm glad that I have a soft skin rather than the inner numbness I had to develop back then.

Tuomas, the problem with your statement here, as Dan has implied, is that your "anyone" is actually "everyone who has ever attended grade school."

The other problem with this thread is actually with the use of the word "judge." Saying you don't think Renee Zellwegger is attractive or you don't like the outfit someone is wearing is kind of miles away from judging them as a person at all. You can think someone is ugly and think they are talented, smart, nice, etc etc etc just as well as you can think someone is hot but find them completely untalented or unbearable in all other respects.

I mean, why is it ok to comment on boob jobs or anorexia?

Anorexia: because it is a disease, and therefore worthy of concern, especially if someone idolized by other suffers from it yet doesn't admit it.

So, by your definition, that thread is actually ok.

In my opinion it's perfectly OK to discuss celebrity plastic surgery (I agree not a healthy phenomenon, and I don't like the fact that so many get stuff done and then lie and say they haven't because I think that creates an unhealthy image for others. I am more in tune with the Pamela Anderson/Carmen Electra standard of just admitting you paid for your tits and being honest because I think that's a lot less unhealthy for "society as a whole") and it's perfectly OK to discuss anorexia (except it's a questionable thing to discuss in and of itself: yeah, it's pretty obvious that, say, Renee Zellwegger or Lindsay Lohan have both lost a significant amount of weight since becoming famous, but the "anorexia concerns" seem to apply to quite a lot of famous women who don't fit the "visibly has lost weight" category as well--see the Paris Hilton thread(s) for example). But I also think it's perfectly OK to discuss whether or not you find a person attractive. Even if the answer is a "no."

Also I'm not sure a boob job is any different than buying an ugly shirt.

I think everyone should look like they do without any sort of pressures coming from any direction. But if someone is actively advocating the current appearance standards, that's a whole different thing. However, I think the celebrities most mocked are the "fat" and the "ugly" ones rather than good-looking ones, which is just enforcing the standards.

Yeah, like Paris "Tub Tub" Hilton, The Walking Buttface.

I just used her an example of people mocking something someone has no control over - i.e. her face. I wasn't talking about her weight.

I think Tuomas gets a different version of ILX than I do :(

I didn't say it's ok. I just thought that was the reason she was ridiculed, not her appearance.

Paris Hilton
Renee Zellwegger
Tobey Maguire
Britney Spears
Lindsay Lohan
Nicole Richie

Who in this group is the ugly one?

and kurt cobain was a saint.

Er, just because I said you shouldn't mock someone's appearance, especially the things she has no control over, doesn't mean I think you can ridicule the things she can control.

We all instinctually make judgements about other people's attractiveness, and I think it's exactly BECAUSE we would feel bad saying these things about friends or real-life strangers that it's okay to do it with celebrities who trade on their public (PUBLIC!) image.

xpost HAHAHAHAHA

But he has a HUGE penis!

It is not unreasonable for the casual or the invested reader to assume that your initial question was, in fact, about ILX, considering this bit of the initial post.

I thought if you had really big breasts you could get away with being a little fat.

So if Tobey gets implants, it will all be okay?

Tuomas, I'm getting the feeling that you're just anti-ridicule.

Saying they need to get thinner when they're normal weight, saying they think they look good when they appear anorectic, appearing in airbrushed publicity pics, getting boob jobs to improve their career, etc.

Does Roseane Barr advocate them? Or Whoopi Goldberg? Or Tilda Swinton?

best not to mock the (unjailed) serial killers; makes 'em grumpy.

on another note, are we still allowed to mock Tara Reid?

You have just described virtually every single celebrity in Hollywood today.

Actually with the airbrushing thing, you've described every last one of them.

There was the case in which a confirmed Madonna stalker was hiding out on a Madonna board. Obsession isn't healthy, and if an obsessive can't get at their primary target, they may strike out at someone in proximity to them.

Yet I cringe when I visit message boards because so many posters are soooooo frigging nasty. "Oh man, her boobs are sagging!" "Katie Holmes has herpes! Eww!!!!" You wish you had sagging breasts like Tara, you'd probably fondle them 24/7 instead of posting such horrible comments.

xpost err Tara's boobs ain't gonna be sagging anywhere any time soon.

Actually with the airbrushing thing, you've described every last one of them.

I know. I never said Hollywood stars are innocent. But if you want to criticize them, do it for the right things.

do you mean this articke?

This doesn't make sense. Either you can say you dislike a person's appearance or you can't. You cannot throw out caveats like that, that you shouldn't make fun of a person's appearance UNLESS you think they are too skinny, or you believe their breasts are fake, or you think they got a nose job.

-- Allyzay flies casual (allyza...) (webmail), June 7th, 2005. (link)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tommy Lee's cojones duh.

-- nathalie's baby (stevienixe...) (webmail), June 7th, 2005. (link)

There was the case in which a confirmed Madonna stalker was hiding out on a Madonna board. Obsession isn't healthy, and if an obsessive can't get at their primary target, they may strike out at someone in proximity to them.

WTF, Bob. A) I'd say that's a pretty extraordinary circumstance B) That's completely different from discussing whether celebrities are hott or not, and C) I'd say a Madonna board is a pretty natural place for a Madonna stalker

B-but does this statement not contain highly subjective implicit judgments wrt what looks "normal and good"?

But if you want to criticize them, do it for the right things.

Tuomas, much as I might disagree with it in principle, a blanket anti-ridicule stance is at least consistent. This selective ridicule position strikes me as naive at best, fascist at worst, and dangerous in all cases.

Nonetheless, I'll await instruction from the Wise and Benevolent Central Committee (Robust Blonde Division) wrt which physical characteristics are approved for critique this month.