A thread for technical Bike geek questions

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As the thread 'ILX RFC001: 'I Love To Ride My Bicycle' ; Shall we did not receive huge acclaim I'd like to start a thread along the lines of boring computer question answering thing so I can ask some techy bike questions, and learn some things.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 18:52 (twenty years ago)

So first for the asking is a question about wheels. My wonderful second hand bike has a set of wheels which sooner or later are going to give up the front rim's braking surface is almost worn flush and the rear hub, despite a change of bearings and frequent greasing is going to give up the ghost at some point, the bearing shells are pretty worn. SO I'm going to have to get new wheels. I have Campag Chorus 9 speed. My question is:

Can I use a Shimano rear hub with a Shimano cassette with an otherwise campag 9-speed groupset? The same question for Mavic cassettes and wheels and are their any other options?

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 18:59 (twenty years ago)

I am not a bike geek, but I have a question for the bike geeks. I have an old crappy bike. Last week I was riding and had to slam on the brakes to avoid hitting a car. After that, it was like the brakes were stuck on, when I was pedalling and even when I got off and was pushing it home. Where should I look on my bike to try and find the cause? Nothing is rubbing up against the tire, so it has to be in the brake mechanism somewhere.

n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 19:52 (twenty years ago)

what part seems stuck, nick? is it the actual brake area or the brake lever area? or is it in the cable? or is this all why you're asking?! are you going to squeezed tonight? leaf & I could take a look at it if you ride over . . .

kelsey (kelstarry), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

What kind of brakes has the bike got (cantilever, calliper, back pedal, V, Disc...)?

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

I can't ride my bike anywhere because the brakes are stuck on! It's like pedalling through molasses! I have no idea how bikes work, so all I could do was make sure nothing was rubbing against the tire. If it helps, it's a really "simple" bike: only one gear, no hand brakes. I don't know what kind of brakes they are, we used to call them coaster brakes, the kind that come on when you pedal backwards. It's an older bike, not a racing bike or anything modern.

n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 19:56 (twenty years ago)

I understand totally if this question is beneath the bike geeks.

n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 19:56 (twenty years ago)

Oh dear god, I need help in exactly this department.

I'm trying to reassemble a 3-speed Shimano internal hub and having only limited success. I won't flood this page with the details, but I'm desperate for some tips to get this bitch back together. The local bikeshop people are lovely but frankly don't have time to fidget with this sort of stuff, and they'll charge me a mint so if you have any advice or a proper shop/owners' manual I'll be in your debt.

Laurel, Tuesday, 19 July 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)

i know so little about pedal brakes.

kelsey (kelstarry), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

that's a back pedal brake. I only have a vague idea of how they work and as for what causes them to stick I am even less sure, sorry.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

Could the chain have slipped out of place or something? Would that cause this problem? I need to take a closer look at it. I couldn't even figure out how to raise my bike seat though. I guess I need a basic bike maintenance book.

n/a (Nick A.), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 20:01 (twenty years ago)

n/a, sounds more like a dragging brake show in the hub, a wedged chain would stop you from pedalling past a certain point.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)

n/a: here's what leaf said, for what it's worth . . .

Leaf:
A coaster brake? I would make certain that the little arm thing is properly secured to the frame.
Me:
he said that he had to slam on the brakes & ever since then, they've been so stuck that he can't ride the bike anymore.
Leaf:
Sounds like the hub is fucked, but the little arm thing is a piece of metal that links the rear hub to the frame. Plus, i have no real clue how those brakes work.

kelsey (kelstarry), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 20:17 (twenty years ago)

n/a: here's what leaf said, for what it's worth . . .

Leaf:
A coaster brake? I would make certain that the little arm thing is properly secured to the frame.
Me: {also asking what the little arm thing is}
he said that he had to slam on the brakes & ever since then, they've been so stuck that he can't ride the bike anymore.
Leaf:
Sounds like the hub is fucked, but the little arm thing is a piece of metal that links the rear hub to the frame. Plus, i have no real clue how those brakes work.

kelsey (kelstarry), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 20:17 (twenty years ago)

apologies. i thought i caught the submit process in enough time. nope. sure didn't.

kelsey (kelstarry), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 20:28 (twenty years ago)

Can I use a Shimano rear hub with a Shimano cassette with an otherwise campag 9-speed groupset? The same question for Mavic cassettes and wheels and are their any other options?

I know that if you need a wheel from neutral support, Campy 9 cassettes and Shimano 9 shifters are definitely compatible, but not exactly the same spacing cog-to-cog. I found them to work ok.

The issue of cross-fitting cassettes--where the spline and overall spacing issues come into play--is one I don't know about.

rec.bicycles.tech on usenet is usually a good source of info for this type of thing.

Hunter (Hunter), Tuesday, 19 July 2005 20:41 (twenty years ago)

I think I answered my own question wrt Mavic hubs. If you use a mavic M10 (Shimano style splines) hub with their casette with yellow spacers then it works with a campag 9 speed derailleur. Of course you can just use an ED9 casette on a mavic ED hub.

The main reason for asking the question is if I by second hand wheels, what are my options, given that chain and casette will probably get replaced at the same time for the sake of completeness. If i get brand new wheels then I'll get campag compatible hubs, obviously.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 08:02 (twenty years ago)

I have a question too. I've probably only done 250 miles on my new bike, but the back brake pads are already very worn (it's regular clamp-on-either-side-of-rim brakes, the only brakes I've ever had, I don't know what they're called). When I put the brakes on (and this is since the day I got the bike) they make quite a noise, as if there is dust between the pad and the rim. Could this be providing extra friction and wearing the pad down quicker? Or is this what's supposed to happen?

FWIW, I tend to use more back than front brake when slowing down (and I tend to go quite quickly so the brakes do get a lot of use) - what's good braking technique?

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 09:09 (twenty years ago)

I tend to use front more than the back, city riding chews brake pads for sure, I've done 500km on mine and not chewed nearly as much brake pad off as you seem to have, but more of that has been rural riding with very little braking.

You could try a diffeent brand of brake pad. Regular cleaning of the rim and pad is not a bad idea either (I use Pedro's oranj peelz degreaser on mine), won't really effect wear on the pads but should reduce grit wear on the rims.

I get a horrific squeal from my rear brake, but I figure it's beacause I don't use it so much, I've tried cleaning the rims and pads, filing the pads and all sorts but nothing cuts out the squeal. So you may not wish to listen to me.

Have you been adjusting the brakes as the pads wear down?

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 09:16 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, cleaning your rims is probably a good move. Any greasy crud on 'em and it'll sound lke you're riding a pig. Make sure the pads are all hitting the rims properly, but they should also be slightly 'toed-in' (try pushing the pad against the rim with a thin bit of card between the two of 'em at the back end of the pad, then loosen and re-tighten). Make sure they're balanced - both pads should be touching the rim equally when you brake. Oh and make sure that there are no loose bits anywhere. Failing that, change your pads.

Best braking technique: don't!

NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 09:31 (twenty years ago)

I don't know how to adjust my brakes! I am sure it's easy/obvious, and my bike manual should tell me how, but if you'd like to advise that's be great too. Mine don't squeal at all, just make a slightly rough whooshing noise (it's hard to describe - just imagine very fine dust between pad and rim).

Thank you both for the advice, btw. I can live with occasional pad replacement if it's happening because I'm such a fucking hardcore cyclist :)

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 09:34 (twenty years ago)

where the cable enters the brake there whould be a little barrel adjuster that should bring the pads closer to the rims. To adjust the brakes relative to each other on my (campag) brakes there is a little allen head, grub screw adjuster, just above either brake pad.

I suspect my rear brake is squealing due to to poor truing and less poor alignment.

Which brings me onto my next question:

Wheel truing, easy to do, how, do I need an expensive, fancy truing frame?

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 09:42 (twenty years ago)

Not really too sure about adjusting rim brakes on road bikes. The "rough whooshing" is just how some brake sound though.

Another possible cause for squealing (but please don't click if yr squeamish)...
http://forum.bikemag.com/photopost/data/504/1093SquirrelDisc.jpg

x-post: approximate wheel truing is fairly easy to do, just do it in little steps with a decent key and try and get the spoke tension even around the wheel. Only way to find out is to do it, so go fer it says I. Proper dishing might be dodgy without the proper tools, but you can get it vaguely right without.

NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 09:59 (twenty years ago)

some dude just fell off his bike on the road for no reason earlier.. no bumps/he wasn't swerving or anything.. he just fell off, and the bike was like sliding across the road for aggggges! and when it stopped it was leaking petrol and stuff. crazy!

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 10:56 (twenty years ago)

Maybe the problem is that he put PETROL in his BICYCLE! Bikes don't run on gas!

n/a (Nick A.), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 13:28 (twenty years ago)

(Am I a bike geek now?)

n/a (Nick A.), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 13:29 (twenty years ago)

The alpha principle for truing is that TECHINIQUE is always way more important than the stand in terms of the reliability of the end result. It is easy to get a wheel back to laterally true. It is not easy to get a wheel laterally true, round, and evenly tensioned so that it lasts. Sometimes, it is not even possible, so you do what you can, lock-tite the spokes that might be slack enough to come loose, and know that you're going to rebuild that wheel someday. I've done this, and then had the wheel last for years, so who knows.

Ed, it depends on what you're doing, and the volume you do. If you're just truing a wheel that's a bit out, or had a broken spoke, you don't need a stand. You can either use your brake pads as guides, or get one of the little guide things that clamps onto your stays. However, if you have a wheel that is significantly out, or has serious tensioning issues (lack of eveness), or is out of round, a stand really helps. I have worked with the nice, auto-centering bench stands, and the cheapo table tops, and well, of course the expensive ones are the easiest to work with. But I bought and use a cheapo and a dishing tool, and with it I have built wheels that are still dead right after 15,000 miles.

Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 14:01 (twenty years ago)

Ok, that squirrel is revolting. I've killed a dove, and I've run over a baby rabbit, but that takes all. I don't know if the baby rabbit was killed--I was getting dark and I was too distraught to look for it.

Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

"it was getting dark"

Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

Yeah the squirrel... it's a shocker isn't it? I'd have been traumatised trying to clean that out of the wheel. One for the jetwash, I reckon. Only ever hit a bird before, and I was too upset then to go back and look for it. Lots of near misses with rabbits, they seem to be capable of squirting through between your wheels, even if you're going full tilt. I've crashed while trying to avoid a frog though. And a friend hit a sleepy badger on a nightride, but they're robust fellows and it just bounced off, ran across a field grumbling and jumped into a ditch.

NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 14:19 (twenty years ago)

Thanks, Ed -- you're a dear but I already have that diagram in two different formats and it's not enough info about how the gears & teeth are supposed to lock together, which parts are supposed to turn freely and which not, etc. The things I need help with aren't visible in the diag. and there are precious few other service resources since the damn thing's probably 40 yrs old.

S'okay, will have to call a dealership or etc. Any other ideas, pls feel free to chime in.

Laurel, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

Laurel, I'd recommend Sheldon Brown's website for all sorts of arcane bikelore.

Here's the page for 3-speed hubs...
http://sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html

NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 14:51 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, I hadn't read your question properly, you were after Shimano help. Please delete me now.

NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 20 July 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

Mark, next time we are at a FAP together, and I have my bike, I'll show you brake adjustment.

Ed (dali), Friday, 22 July 2005 06:05 (twenty years ago)

hoorah!

Truing advice has enabled me to at least get the big kinks out of the rear wheel so that I can set my brakes up properaly so that they no longer squeal.

Now I come to a silent top, I will have to invest in a bell or a horn. I can't use the rear wheel to announce my presence any more.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:19 (twenty years ago)

Yelling 'GOOD MORNING!' hyper-cheerfully with a slightly unhinged leer on yer face > comedy bike squeak > bell > horn, as far as etiquette towards peds goes, I reckon.

NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:49 (twenty years ago)

I would like to buy a bike, but I keep putting it off because I hate shopping for stuff, especially pricey stuff.

So, who would like to tell me what bike to get? Comfort is KEY. But I think I'd like it to be not too heavy so that I can get it onto the metro, bus bike rack, etc. with relative ease.

In return for your advice I will name my bike after you.

quincie, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

I'd look for what they call an Urban bike. A road/racer frame with flat bars. Kona Dew, ridgeback genesis day, claud butler chinook or levante.

Suspension is a waste of weight in my opinion.

See also:

Help me choose a bike

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 19:53 (twenty years ago)

How much are you looking to spend and in what country?

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)

See also the Specialized Sirrus range.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 20:16 (twenty years ago)

Ed OTM.

When I'm retired and have a little more time (hopefully), I wanna start a service where a person gives me a (really low) budget, and a description of how they'd use the bike, and I source and build the coolest thing I can scrabble together with cast off shit. Flat bar single-speeds with racks and steamers on the handlebars. Internal hub 3 speeds with riser bars and new-old-stock spinacci extensions and fenders. Fixie balloon tire cruisers with a decent drop bar position and a horn that plays the Fat Albert theme song.

Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 05:43 (twenty years ago)

At what point should I declare my rims to be worn out. The left hand braking surface of my front rim is very nearly flush with threst of the body of the rim; should I start worrying now?

Ed (dali), Friday, 29 July 2005 07:32 (twenty years ago)

two weeks pass...
O frabjous day, callooh callay. We all gave up on reassembling the rear hub and just ordered a new (used) one. Back wheel is back on and I replaced the shift cable today! Am very proud of self so please feel free to administer pats on back.

Self even figured out how to put the shifter mechanism back together after it sprang apart (catapulting ball bearing under stove and requiring the moving of major appliances) and adapted the business end of the cable to meet up with the little spring arm shifting thing WITHOUT ANY DIRECTIONS.

New tubes are next and then it's ready to ride (though that will be the minimum of serviceable and I think it needs new brake cables & pads). Am worried about the difficulties of cutting cable housing. Any tips for not compressing the spring, etc etc? Do I need to buy the handy dandy tool for this purpose or will a regular wire cutter and a metal file do as well? Also, is it worth taking apart the headset and the crank to see how they work--I mean, clean them up? Or is that just a world of trouble?

Laurel, Saturday, 13 August 2005 21:59 (twenty years ago)

Hellup! No, seriously -- can anyone help me resolve The Mystery of the Front Hub Threading? I've been all over Bklyn (okay, two places) trying to find nuts that will fit on the front axle of my god-knows-how-old Tyler bike (a Polish make) and neither the metric nor imperial options are working. I'm getting worried that they were some proprietary system that I'll never find in the whole fucking world and I don't want to have a buy a whole new front wheel for this little hang-up. Will call more shops tomorrow but in the meanwhile ANY advise welcomed.

Laurel, Sunday, 14 August 2005 20:53 (twenty years ago)

Take that! And that! My free bike is ROLLIN' due to the work of my own two handsies. Still some improvements to make but I'm so pleased! And mobile!

Next I have to overhaul the brakes. Faugh.

Laurel, Wednesday, 17 August 2005 01:31 (twenty years ago)

Hey! Why didn't I Love To Ride My Bicycle ever happen?! I want it!

I also want your help. Should I:
(a) purchase a lightly used Surly 1x1 (http://chicago.craigslist.com/bik/91434434.html)
(b) purchase a new, custom built Surly Steamroller (from yojimbosgarage.com)
(c) or purchase a new, custom built Surly Cross-Check from same
(d) or sod the Surlys and get an IRO Mark V or Kogswell Model G?


Help! I just need a bike for commuting to work/going to bars/not getting stolen. However, I like to go FAST and live in Chicago. Whatever that means.

giboyeux (skowly), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 02:56 (twenty years ago)

Hey!

giboyeux (skowly), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

Surlys would make good town bikes I think. Probably wouldn't be the first bike in the rack to get nicked, but still a fair amount of underground cred. Strong and reliable, perhaps a little ugly, sort of built like farm vehicles. Which is good, but their heaviness might not make 'em feel quite fast enough for you (think that frame weight is probably in the region of 4.5-5 lbs) - they might feel a little leaden out of the blocks. Try them though, you'll see! My former co-worker here rode a Kogswell fixy and she loved that bike. Wouldn't ever let me take it for a spin though, so couldn't tell you how it rode.

NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 12:33 (twenty years ago)

I'm curious, why is there so little mountain bike talk here?
Aren't they more popular than road bikes?

mei (mei), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

I like farm vehicles.

...these Kogswells are sounding more and more appealing. All the braze-ons I'd need for commuting, but still classy single-speeds. I guess the main appeal of a Cross-Check is that I could turn it into a geared bike down the road.

xpost--MTBs are great for the mountains. Not as great for the city. Most people on these boards live in the city. The only reason I'm interested in a MTB in the city is so I could drop/jump curbs w/o fear of tacoing my wheels. Which I suppose I could do with a burlier road wheel...?

giboyeux (skowly), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)

I'm toying with getting one of these newfangled weird shaped frame things with suspension springs and disc bakes.

Are the frames measured in the same way?

I'm 5'11-and-a-bit and I like to sit fairly upright in the saddle as much as possible as I have neck problems that are exacerbated by curling my neck up and leaning forward.

What size frame should I get? Random googling suggests something between 18" and 21".

Onimo (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

go here: wrenchscience.com

Look on the right for the "get sized for a bike" or something. Make sure you have measuring tape handy.

giboyeux (skowly), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

like to sit fairly upright in the saddle as much as possible

...this is the only thing about road bikes that irks me sometimes is the lack of visibility when you're in the aero position

giboyeux (skowly), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 13:23 (twenty years ago)

Thanks, I'll send that link home and touch measure myself up tonight.

Onimo (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

I'd say go for an 18" or 19" frame, but it totally depends on the geometry of the bike. A 21" mtb frame will be hideously large. I'm 6'0 and all my bikes happen to be 19" but then they're all fairly similar geometries. You really need to test the bike though and don't be tempted to go too small or too upright, cos that'll be a whole new world of aches and pains.

NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

http://www.canada.com/victoria/story.html?id=9db69b18-7edf-482b-ad08-22991f5bd834

Crystal methamphetamine's method of destroying brain cells is well documented.

But police are now coming to a startling conclusion about another side-effect of the drug -- bike thefts are skyrocketing because crystal meth users, or "meth heads," find disassembling bikes and fiddling with bike parts satisfies their need to keep their hands busy while on the drug.

I'm Hi, Jared Fogle (ex machina), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 14:08 (twenty years ago)

I'll never look at messengers the same way now.


Another handy hint (brought to mind by that article): write your name on a slip of paper (pref laminated, if you can) and stick it in the seat tube. That way, should your bike get stolen and you see someone riding it later you can unequivocally prove that it is yours.

giboyeux (skowly), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 15:08 (twenty years ago)

not a question, i just wanted to coo over my new pedals... one of the old ones finally gave up the ghost on the way to work this morning - it got all metal bits sticking through it (and therefore through my shoe since i have crap shoes and they have massive holes in the bottoms) and it was all slopey out and forcing me to pedal all cockeyed (cockfooted?) and making me pull something in the arch of my foot. so i went to lovely brixton cycles and they gave me these beautiful sleek shiny ones with the absolute minimum of strappy bits and clippy bits and fuss (i have those ones that put your feet in cages) and if you want to tighten them you just pinch a little bulldog clip-like thing and pull it and aaaahhhh they are GORGEOUS and after a very irritating journey to work it felt as good as it would have if i'd walked into the sea and squeezed my toes in the sand. and they were only a tenner! yes probably you all know about these already but i didn't. aaahhh, pedal porn... i keep wanting to go outside and look at them and touch them and pinch the little clip and stuff.

emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 16:08 (twenty years ago)

I bought a bike! It is a Jamis coda sport and it feels great, but now I think I will have to get some of these good pedals to replace the blah stock ones! And a new seat, and some sort of detachable basket (don't want to mess with zippers and such, just want to be able to chuck the grocery bag in there with minimum fuss), and a light, and and and. . .

Seriously, having a bike seems much like having a child to me--you're always worrying about it and buying it stuff.

Emsk, can you link to these pedals of yours?

quincie, Tuesday, 30 August 2005 16:25 (twenty years ago)

yay more bikepeople! it will improve your life immeasurably. i was in evans in victoria on the way to the oxford river walk and there was a girl in there dithering about whether to buy a bike or not and i babbled incoherently at her for a few minutes, and i swear i saw her last week on a bike. she was smiling.
bah, i can't find a good picture of the pedals and don't have time to look properly.

emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 16:40 (twenty years ago)

I have a nice 16" aluminium GT Tempest frame that I would like to get rid of. Assuming I stick it up of ebay, what's a reasonable price?

Sasha (sgh), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 01:59 (twenty years ago)

gah. is as though bike is conducting sadistic philosopher's axe-style psychological experiment on me to make me decide when my bike is no longer "my bike". the bolt holding the back wheel on (the bit with the quick-release lever at one end that goes through the whole wheel) snapped and flew off this morning. GAAAAAHHH. technical bike geeks: as a non-technical bike geek but someone who is good at fiddly things and quick to learn them but also does not have a death wish, would you advise me to try and get a replacement bolt today, return to bike this evening (is locked up by old street/great eastern street styxian junction of hell) and try and fix it myself, or walk the fucker ALL THE WAY HOME tonight (ok is not that far but will seem so damn SLOW and i don't have anything with me to listen to music on) and take it to barclays in the morning? GAH. am in right old grump now :(

emsk ( emsk), Thursday, 1 September 2005 09:27 (twenty years ago)

Are you talking about yr quick release skewer?

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/images/salsa%20skewers.jpg

If so, they're an absolute doddle to fit. Just make sure you get a spring at each end facing the right way round (like on that picture). Tighten it up so that the lever makes an impression on your palm when you close it, but not so tight that it's an effort to get it shut. Don't think you'll be able to buy just the spindle, you'll have to get the whole assembly and if you look at the packs of them, you'll see that they normally get sold as pairs. But any bike shop worth it's salt will have a big bucket of spare ones round the back somewhere, so just ask. Make sure it's a rear one though, cos front and back are different sizes.

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 1 September 2005 09:50 (twenty years ago)

nickb thank you yr an angel! that skewer is what it is, i kept the 2 bits that flew off so i can make sure i don't get the wrong one. thank you! day looking considerably brighter.

emsk ( emsk), Thursday, 1 September 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

No problem. Hope you didn't hurt yourself when things went ping.

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 1 September 2005 10:19 (twenty years ago)

do you know the name/make of your new pedals? i a) need new pedals b) live near brix cycles..

question for bike geeks? my chain rubs against my derailleur when in top gear causing a horrible grating noise... i've taken it to brix cycles twice now and they've adjusted it but a lesser version of the same thing still happens. i've tried adjusting the position of the derailleur slightly myself but only succeeded in transferring the noise's incidence to bottom gear.

should i take it that i need a new derailleur or just that it's not been fitted properly... i suspect something is bent out of shape, but i (clearly) don't have the technical expertise to confirm this..

barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Thursday, 1 September 2005 10:39 (twenty years ago)

My chainy bits are also beginning to rub and clink after only a few hundred miles (and no metal-bending incidents that I know of) and I am wondering if giving the mechanism a good clean might sort it all out?

Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 1 September 2005 10:41 (twenty years ago)

barbarian, i was trying to find them on the interweb the other night but i can't! it doesn't help that they have no brand name on them or anything (obv for any other reason than this i love that they have no brand name). the guy seemed to just dig 'em out from under the counter, it didn't look like they were in a packet or anything. i'll ask him later when i go in to get the skewer thing...

emsk ( emsk), Thursday, 1 September 2005 10:57 (twenty years ago)

If your front mech is on straight and it's at the right height (and it's not bent - pretty sure the shop would've checked all those things) then all you can do really is make little adjustments with the barrel adjuster on the shifter pod until it's as good as you can get it. I've come to the conclusion that some sort of chain rub is just a fact of life, so maybe just concentrate on trying to get your gears to shift nice and sweetly. If they do shift well and you can get it so that the chain only rubs in the lowest gear (small chainring, big sprocket), that wouldn't be too bad I suppose - how often do you use that gear anyhow?

There are little adjuster screws on the mech itself as well which set the maximum and minimum derailleur position. Might help to make little adjustments there too, but I always shy away from fettling with those too much, cos it's easy to get confused.

x-post: Mark, the cables will have stretched a bit from new, so you should be able to take up the slack by fiddling with the adjuster barrels to take up the slack. Cleaning should help general shifting too though.

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 1 September 2005 11:02 (twenty years ago)

how reliable are 'puncture-proof' tyres? just splashed out on some after my shitty old ones wore out

Barnaby (Barnaby), Thursday, 1 September 2005 11:02 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, wot I roat was mostly in gibberish.

Puncture-proof stuff should be a bit better than a normal version of the same tyre. You can also get some sort of gunky solution to squirt in yer tubes if you're still having lots of probs though. Never tried it myself, but I know people that swear by it. (Why are decent tyres so damn expensive anyhow?)

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 1 September 2005 11:09 (twenty years ago)

w/r/t puncture resistant tyres, I use kevlar belted tyres (schwalbe marathon slicks, though obv there are many good brands available)combined w/"slime tape" which = this strip of thickish pvc tape which goes between yr tyre tread and the inner tube. I've had one puncture in a year, & was getting loads beforehand.

genuine "puncture proof" tyres are those solid ones. I don't like them much, they're heavy, and heavy in the worst place, the outside edge of your wheel rim, likewise puncture sealant solution. That's the last place you want to be adding weight.

Barry, I forgot to email you about cycle computers, because I am a titanic lamer. are you still after one? I have a few in stock at the moment.

If the bike has 8 or 9 speed sprockets on the back wheel, then I fear you'll just have to put up w/a bit of chain rub on the f mec h (cut & paste & insert stock pashmina rant about how 8-9-10 speed sprockets = IDIOTIC & how shiman0 suck etc etc etc)

Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 1 September 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

do have 8 sprockets... sighs... but this never used to happen. i'm beginning to suspect that the brixton cylists mechanics are not very proficient.

bikegeekz question: i know very little about bike maintenance beyond the basics but have longish-term dream of building racing bike from scratch after buying frame and parts separately... prepared to put in much trial, error and time... but is this realistic? for something like 7 or 800 quid's lay out do you reckon i could end up with a significantly better bike than if i bought a pre-fab one?

also, a friend suggested good places to get great frames cheaply are police auctions.. anyone ever gone down that route?

barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Thursday, 1 September 2005 11:33 (twenty years ago)

ps what bike comps do you have in stock and how much?

barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Thursday, 1 September 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

Norm, yes I am, and I was discussing this with another ILXor who also wanted one - Toby, it could have been? If you like, you can email me off board on this address. Thanks for remembering!

Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 1 September 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

for something like 7 or 800 quid's lay out do you reckon i could end up with a significantly better bike than if i bought a pre-fab one?

You have to bear in mind that the big bike companies are buying all their components in at crazy low bulk prices, so it's kind of hard to compete with the quality of the kit on their bikes and stay in budget if you get stuff bit by bit. I think that a lot of the Treks and Specializeds and so on are pretty great value for money. So, hmmm, probably not... unless you're really shrewd or if you can pick up bits as and when you see then cheap/secondhand. Was looking at this build kit the other day which seems like a hell of a bargain. £500 for full top-end groupset plus tyres, saddle, bars and seatpost and whatnot. You still need to get frame, fork and wheels though, which could cost the best part of another half a grand if you want bits of a similar quality.

Having said that, over the next few months, all this year's bikes are going to get flogged off cheap to make way for next year's stock, and I think you'll probably be really hard pressed to beat the prices on those.

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 1 September 2005 12:17 (twenty years ago)

Dunno if Ed is still thinking about cyclocross frames, but there's a new Planet-X cross frame out, which looks like a scoop for £175. And it's red too - cor!

http://www.planet-x-bikes.com/road/images/pagemaster/UJ_side_500.jpg

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 1 September 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

ok, what would you suggest in that region (7-800)? the specialised allez elite looked quite nice at round that, i think.

i have a city/hybrid/road-bike that i'm perfectly content with for my daily commute, so i'd want this more for doing longer day-rides in the countryside and mebbe a lil bit of racing..

barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Thursday, 1 September 2005 12:23 (twenty years ago)

I don't think you can go too wrong with Specialized. Markelby's got a nice Trek at around that sort of price too. Hold out for something on sale though and you'll get a bit more for your money. Not sure if things with carbon rear ends will come down to there, but they might not be far off. You'll get pimpier wheels etc too.

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 1 September 2005 12:29 (twenty years ago)

(I'm worried I'll start Pashmina off on his stingy cyclist rant again)

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 1 September 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

Not sure if things with carbon rear ends will come down to there, but they might not be far off.

I was wrong!.

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 1 September 2005 12:52 (twenty years ago)

I love my bike :)

Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 1 September 2005 13:04 (twenty years ago)

hurrah hurrah i got the skewer for four squids. i have taken it apart and put it back tgether again, it took about five seconds. but i forgot to ask about the pedals, damn! barbarian, maybe they have generic ones they sell to anyone who's not after sth specific? or the guy who sold them to me might remember - he's the black guy with the dreads (patrick?? i might've just made that up...).

emsk ( emsk), Thursday, 1 September 2005 15:22 (twenty years ago)

bah! that was not the prob (or not sole one) after all :( got the part, went back to bike, put it in, tightened it up, piece of piss as predicted, got on bike, same thing started to happen - just before it exploded this am the back wheel seized up, sort of as if something were winding itself around the wheel (forgot to mention that) - obv braked immediately but i was going too fast to stop before it cracked (and i wasn't even going fast, was approaching road crossing after all). anyway this time it didn't explode, but it is not happy, if the wheel goes forwards it jams up, feels like something's being wound too tight, if i then spin it backwards it loosens up and it freewheels fine backwards. phoned my uncle (who is a technical bike geek supremo dude) and he went through a few things and said it sounds like either they gave me the wrong size axle (got a new one 2 weeks ago but it's been running perfectly since then) or they've fixed it in wrong. so i had to leave it there overnight :( tho if anyone does pinch it, i suppose they wheel'll fall off and they'll die. anyway. massive hassle to get it from old st to brixton without actually riding it! bah.

emsk ( emsk), Thursday, 1 September 2005 22:57 (twenty years ago)

not v technical but help very much appreciated... my bike trousers (generic pretend-combats-style from generic high st shop cut off below knee, many pockets) are falling apart esp on the bum, i've fixed/patched them a few times and i don't really mind doing that but it's getting a bit stupid now. so i need some new ones and they do not seem to exist! i just want a pair of 3/4 length trousers with secure (zip best but velcro ok i suppose) pockets near both knees, at least one pocket where you'd normally get one on jeans or whatever, a reinforced bum but NO BLOODY NAPPY INSERT god i hate those things. and it mustn't have an elasticated waist either, a bit of elasticated is ok but not the whole thing, it feels like you're wearing 5 pairs of shorts. i've found a few things that almost perfectly fit it - lovely pair from race face but they only had one pocket and it wasn't closable (these are for every day to work and back/to gig and back stuff so i want a pocket for 3 lots of keys, another for my phone and another for gloves/mask etc), think it was these ones:

http://www.raceface.com/apparel/btb-layer/cortina.htm

the guy in evans yesterday said they'd had some 3/4 length green cargo pants that sounded ideal but they'd sold out and it was the end of the line... any ideas anyone?

emsk ( emsk), Friday, 9 September 2005 10:27 (twenty years ago)

I have a great pair of endura 3/4s which do have a nappy insert but you don't have to use it, lots of useful zip up pockets . I'll ask r**** where she gets her 3/4 cords from as well.

check out http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ the selection at condor is always pretty good.

Ed (dali), Friday, 9 September 2005 10:30 (twenty years ago)

ahhhh i like that site thank you! those 3/4 endura humvee ones look brilliant (soooo many pockets! oh dear i am salivating over pockets...). but why are they called HUMVEE? fugly concept.

emsk ( emsk), Friday, 9 September 2005 10:45 (twenty years ago)

Have a look at the stuff that Minx sell too - they specialise in swanky mountain bike kit for women. Bear in mind that with a lot of baggies, the liner is often totally detachable, so if you don't want it, you can just take it out. You might have to email them to find out about specific items though.

NickB (NickB), Friday, 9 September 2005 10:51 (twenty years ago)

The hypnotic designs stuff is great but so expensive.

Ed (dali), Friday, 9 September 2005 11:20 (twenty years ago)

yeah they look gorgeous but £90 is a bit much! that's 2 weeks' cash... i was hoping for something around £25 and expecting more like £40.

emsk ( emsk), Friday, 9 September 2005 11:26 (twenty years ago)

have you had a look at decathlon?

Ed (dali), Friday, 9 September 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

decathlon seem to only have simpler stuff on their site...

emsk ( emsk), Friday, 9 September 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

quality of their own brand stuff is quite good though.

Ed (dali), Friday, 9 September 2005 11:43 (twenty years ago)

quick question for nick b - you're in "the trade" nick? Let's see how blandly I can word this - how are you finding the general performance of uk-based cycle part wholesalers in 2005, particularly w/r/t stocking of parts, and the supplying of these parts in a 1/correct and 2/timely manner?

Thx.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 13 September 2005 11:40 (twenty years ago)

OK...heres my technical bike geek question...
http://www.trackteamaudio.com/users/krud/IMG_1115.JPG
http://www.trackteamaudio.com/users/krud/IMG_1117.JPG

my question: WHAT. THE. FUCK. !?!?!?!?!?!?!

ddb (ddb), Wednesday, 21 September 2005 22:41 (twenty years ago)

is that broken off, or has it been sawn off?

Usually when I see a broken crank, it breaks off right near where the pedal screws in.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 22 September 2005 08:51 (twenty years ago)

That's sawn off, right? Are they sawtooth marks on the shaft?

Hey Pash, am I still expecting an email from you?

Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 22 September 2005 09:04 (twenty years ago)

NO. ITS BROKEN OFF!!!!!!!!!!!! IT SNAPED RIGHT OFF, WHILST I WAS PEDALING.


:(

ddb (ddb), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:15 (twenty years ago)

MY PROBLEM NOW....IT'S A BIANCHI PISTA W/VERY WEIRD SIZING. SO I THINK I MAY NEED TO REPLACE THE BOTTOM BRACKET AND THE CRANKS.

WHICH IS GONNA BE $$$$$$$$$$$$.

ddb (ddb), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:17 (twenty years ago)

HOW DOES A CRANK ARM BREAK LIKE THAT. MADNESS.

ddb (ddb), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:18 (twenty years ago)

A flaw in the alloy, usually. If you examine the ends of the broken bits, you might be able to spot it. You're lucky if you weren't injured, a common outcome of this type of breakage is a broken ankle.

Am writing email now, Barry. Sorry for lameness.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:24 (twenty years ago)

You've buggered that good and proper alright. That'll be your singlespeeders legs then. Hope you didn't come off as a consequence.

Why will you have to replace the B/B? Isn't it just regular square-tapered?

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:26 (twenty years ago)

quick question for nick b - you're in "the trade" nick?

No, no I'm not. Just propping it up with my hard-earned ;o)

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:29 (twenty years ago)

I thought you ran/worked for a shop!

Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

I have friends that are in the industry, by I'm just yer average consumer dork fanboy myself.

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

by but

NickB (NickB), Thursday, 22 September 2005 13:35 (twenty years ago)

ok...maybe I dont need a new BB....how can i find out the style/length of my BB so i can get a crankset that fits???

its a stock BB from a 2002 bianchi pista (black)...if anyone knows.

ddb (ddb), Thursday, 22 September 2005 15:12 (twenty years ago)

Wow, that's impressive.

I snapped a bottom bracket axle once, a steel one.
That hurt.

mei (mei), Thursday, 22 September 2005 15:52 (twenty years ago)

For your amusement: uphill sprint, recalled stem. Don't ride a recalled stem, y'all. No injuries resulted from the stem failure, thankfully.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/3414/03240001sml8en.jpg

Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 22 September 2005 18:13 (twenty years ago)

ok here are my BB specs if anyone can suggest a Crankset (Pashmina, NickB??)...

english threaded, square taper, 107 spindle & 68 shell...


ANY HELP WOULD BE HUGE, THX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ddb (ddb), Thursday, 22 September 2005 18:14 (twenty years ago)

WOW!...that stem looks pretty suspect to begin with.!!

ddb (ddb), Thursday, 22 September 2005 18:14 (twenty years ago)

WOW!...that stem looks pretty suspect to begin with.!!

The stem was pretty overbuilt in appearance for the road, actually--they even had a version with a different bar clamp diameter for xc mtb. And not very light. I had always figured it was recalled because it was issued with titanium bolts, which I had replaced. Frankly I just would NOT use Ti bolts to hold the face clamp of my stem. For the steerer clamp, maybe for one season. I don't know exactly the reason for the failure here, but it looks like the welding heat compromised the surrounding tubing?

It was a team-issued stem anyway, and Profile was very, very good about replacement with a top-of-the-line LAVA stem, even these many years later. The LAVA stem is much lighter, your standard shot-peened looking modern racing stem, adequately stiff for me (a non-sprinter) at least.

Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 22 September 2005 19:03 (twenty years ago)

fucking blows about the pista! why is it so spendy to repair?!

kelsey (kelstarry), Thursday, 22 September 2005 19:10 (twenty years ago)

Can you not just get a new spider, or just a new crank?

If you need to replace the whole thing. FSA MegaExo crank and BB stuff seems to come highly recommended, except the only single speed they do is the Vigorelli which looks amazing, but is isis drive and looks very expensive. Campag Record Pista?

Ed (dali), Thursday, 22 September 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

Oh noes! Should I expect similar failure from MY Pista?! I knew I should have gotten a Surly! Dammit!


...or does my shiny chromed-out blingy kit break less? Either way: eep. Glad you didn't get hurt.

giboyeux at work, Thursday, 22 September 2005 20:53 (twenty years ago)

I think the newer bianchi pistas come w/tru vativs...which isn't top of the line...but is probably miles ahead of the generic stock cranks my bianchi came with. Im sure yours will be fine...like Pashmina said, it was probably a flaw in the alloy coupled with riding it pretty hard....

I just ordered a new shimano crank w/a TA chain ring....the bottom bracket stays....although the setup Ed is talking about sounds hot.

I am on a pretty limited budget.....rent and all.

thx for the help fellas.....now to get through the next couple of days w/out riding...sigh!!!

ddb (ddb), Thursday, 22 September 2005 22:40 (twenty years ago)

ooh:

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/flyimage.aspx?nm=CK_Vigorelli.jpg&big=true

Ed (dali), Friday, 23 September 2005 04:52 (twenty years ago)

That stem... uggh!

NickB (NickB), Friday, 23 September 2005 07:56 (twenty years ago)

I have a 70's road bike, converted to single speed; I bent my rear axle and decided to splurge on an entirely new wheel instead with a flip-flop hub. So I've got this new wheel built up and I have to buy a fixed cog and freewheel; what number of teeth, with a 40-tooth chainring, is going to give me the optimal gear ratio? (Offhand I have no idea about crank length.)

I'm thinking 16 fixed/17 free, although I'm not sure what advantages there might be to a smaller cog; I expect to ride mostly freewheel until winter and then mostly fixed thereafter, owing to the usual weather-related factors.

d4niel c0hen, Saturday, 1 October 2005 22:58 (twenty years ago)

This ain't so much about gear ratios or how stems/crank shafts break (and man, how did an injury not occur when that stem broke?), but this it does seem technically related:

From today's New York Times:
In a bluntly worded editorial with the articles, Dr. Steven Schrader, a reproductive health expert who studies cycling at the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, said he believed that it was no longer a question of "whether or not bicycle riding on a saddle causes erectile dysfunction."

Instead, he said in an interview, "The question is, What are we going to do about it?"

my name is john. i reside in chicago. (frankE), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

It's supposed to snow tonight. They're sayin' 6 to 10 inches, but I doubt that all of it will stick. I've commuted by bike this semester all days but two. I've winterized my bike: ultra-waterproof paniers for laptop and books, fenders, mud flap, and narrow but semi-knobby cross tires (700c x 30, new Ritchey Speedmax). I've got sufficient clothes. The route is 9 miles on road, 1 mile on crushed rock unplowed canal path. I absolutely must be on time for school tomorrow, a big presentation is due first thing.

Should I attempt it? Who has snowbiking experience? Should I take off the fenders so they don't pack up?

Hunter (Hunter), Sunday, 9 October 2005 22:20 (twenty years ago)

one month passes...
Ok so i went to go put my bike away for the winter and i noticed the rear cogs are beginning to rust. I've been storing the bike outside and rain must of somehow snuck in. I've only had the bike since the summer, can i clean off the rust with some citrus degreaser and then safely put it away for the season? or do i have someone remove the whole gear cluster and give it a cleaning? i do not have much money to send it to a shop.

kephm (kephm), Wednesday, 30 November 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

The cogs are raw metal so they'll rust quickly if they're not protected by lube.

Just put on a good coating of oil and it won't rust anymore, what little rust there is will be worn/cleaned off very quickly in normal use as soon as you start riding it again.

You should also check your cables are oiled, as if they're dry they might rust solid over the winter.

mei (mei), Thursday, 1 December 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

one year passes...
where is I Love To Ride My Bicycle?


I need a bike in London!! Help!

underwater ghost ship picture (skowly), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:18 (nineteen years ago)

Emsk was going to a police auction this week for this reason, hopefully she can report back on how this went.

How much have you got to spend?

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:23 (nineteen years ago)

i just need to borrow one for a day or two

(hi Ed, it's gbx)

underwater ghost ship picture (skowly), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:24 (nineteen years ago)

what kind of bike, where and for what?

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:28 (nineteen years ago)

I read this as "A thread for technical Bible geek questions", and I got all ready to talk about cubits

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:29 (nineteen years ago)

road bike (would love a fixed or track, but that's obviously not likely), for riding on the streets of London because I'd like the mobility and i like riding in the city.

i'm staying in W2

underwater ghost ship picture (skowly), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:32 (nineteen years ago)

Frame size? when?

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:33 (nineteen years ago)

i got a friend who works for sustrans who might be able to help

think i have fucked the police auction thing, for some reason i thought it started at 2.30 but it seems to be 10.30 :( how do these things work?

emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:33 (nineteen years ago)

Would it be viewing from 10:30 and buying form 2:30?

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:36 (nineteen years ago)

this week! i am short...usually ride a 53-54

underwater ghost ship picture (skowly), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:37 (nineteen years ago)

don't think so - www.greasbys.co.uk

emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:39 (nineteen years ago)

I would say borrow mine, but it is a 60. I will talk to friend R. about this.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:40 (nineteen years ago)

what is sustrans?

i've gotta go look at old buildings and stuff with my sis, but will check back later.


thanks for the help, guys!

xp you are tall, Ed

underwater ghost ship picture (skowly), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:40 (nineteen years ago)

Sustrans is a Sustainable transport charity, responsible for the national cycle network and for funding bike trails etc.

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 12:43 (nineteen years ago)

My rear brake lever is really stiff, and I don't think it's the lever itself, or the brake mechanism. Should I lubricate the cable housing? And if so how?

ledge (ledge), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:30 (nineteen years ago)

hi dere

underwater ghost ship picture (skowly), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 10:53 (nineteen years ago)

No joy so far I'm afraid.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 11:55 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.londonbicycle.com/bikes.htm

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 11:57 (nineteen years ago)

you lubricate the cable housing usually by taking the cable out and before you slide it back in blob some grease onto the end. That was how i used to do it anywayz.

Ste (Fuzzy), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 11:58 (nineteen years ago)

maaaan.

underwater ghost ship picture (skowly), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:06 (nineteen years ago)

Suckage indeed, sorry, dude.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:07 (nineteen years ago)

four years pass...

Lbs would not overhaul bb because they said if the axle was pitted, they couldn't replace it. Now I'm killing myself with a hammer, slowly deforming the chainring-side cotter pin end because I can't hit it center-on. FUUUUUCK

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Friday, 2 September 2011 22:08 (fourteen years ago)

WAIT OKAY! Would anyone like to advise me on heating up the pedal arm to try and loosen the stuck pin?? Because that's what I'm going to do next.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Friday, 2 September 2011 23:56 (fourteen years ago)


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