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bomb alerts and stuff

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they've just sealed off a chunk of tottenham court road, from the boots to euston road, 50 policemen outside warren street station.

no one can get out of our building just now

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:10 (twenty years ago)

have they said anything? i.e. what they are looking for or did they get a warning?

― battlingspacemonkey (battlingspacemonkey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:13 (twenty years ago)

These aren't news any longer, are they? I mean, I was hit with two last week, and it wasn't news then.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:13 (twenty years ago)

Probably just another abandoned bag.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:13 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I've had two in the past week. How scary is it that it's got to the point where this just feels normal, and we generally ignore it?

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

there were shitloads of sirens for this one - more then i've heard for a fortnight...

― Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

i have started looking at peep's on my train in the morning now and looking at their bags and their faces and their mannerisms, i've also started making random conversations with people as well...

― battlingspacemonkey (battlingspacemonkey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

three incidents reported on tubes. smoke from trains. warren st, oval, shep bush. chaos on tott ct rd.

― Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:20 (twenty years ago)

It doesn't feel normal to me.

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:21 (twenty years ago)

INCIDENTS REPORTED NEAR TUBE STATIONS

A series of incidents have been reported near Warren Street, Oval and Shepherd's Bush stations on the London Underground. Smoke was seen coming from a train.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1189833,00.html

― battlingspacemonkey (battlingspacemonkey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:22 (twenty years ago)

still sealed.. not much in terms of reports yet apparently "smoke was seen coming from a train"

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1189833,00.html


there's this bus also that's empty in the middle of a junction. dunno if that's related or just stuck around a sea of sticky tapes.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

oh xpost

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

Shit.

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

Probably the latter.

From that news story:

one witness who was travelling on one of the trains said a man told him that a passenger carrying a rucksack made an exclamation and then the rucksack exploded.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

they don't usual go this big for dropped bags.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

also, i'm very hungry and i can't get downstairs to the sainsburys, which makes me VERY ANGRY. and may injure people as a result.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

jesus fucking christ. not again!

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

whoever is doing this, if this is real, stop it.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:26 (twenty years ago)

Guardian has picked up Sky's story:

By Neil McIntosh / UK news 01:15pm

1315 We're getting new reports of a "series of incidents" on the tube network. Warren Street, Oval and Shepherd's Bush tubes have all been evacuated, and emergency services are attending. Services on the Victoria line and Northern line have been suspended.

Sky News is reporting a minor explosion on one tube at 1254. A passenger's backpack blew apart, but did not cause further damage. There was panic on the train, but passengers were able to disembark.

Not again...

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:26 (twenty years ago)

The "smoke" might well be illusory if all the trains involved were tube trains, which at least two of them were. The smallest incidents on the tube produce reports of smoke; it's usually just dust being disturbed.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:26 (twenty years ago)

are there no munchies in your office?

no biscuits? crisps?

x-post to Ken c

― battlingspacemonkey (battlingspacemonkey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

I'm hoping it's just people being on edge.

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

north, south, east and west. the image of a "burning crucifix" that the bombers talked about making last time. still let's hope that this isn't what it appears to be.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

made an exclamation

"allah akhbar" or "oh shit, my aerosol/iPod/science experiment etc has blown up"? that's the key.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

INCIDENTS REPORTED NEAR TUBE STATIONS


A series of incidents have been reported near Warren Street, Oval and Shepherd's Bush stations on the London Underground.

The station have been evacuated. Smoke was seen coming from a train.


A man on the train told Sky News he spoke to an Italian man who witnessed an explosion.

"He told me he had seen a man carrying a rucksack which suddenly exploded. It was a minor explosion but enough to blow open his rucksack. Everyone rushed from the carriage. People evacuated very quickly. There was no panic.

"I didn't see anyone injured but there was shock and fright.

"There was a smell of smoke."

Police have cordoned off the streets around Warren Street station. They said a suspect package had been reported on a Victoria Line train.

― battlingspacemonkey (battlingspacemonkey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

I've just booked train tickets to come to London in a few weeks. And now this happens! Bloody typical, you know

(grumble, grumble, whinge inanely to try to cover up serious concern)

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

north, south, east and west. the image of a "burning crucifix" that the bombers talked about making last time. still let's hope that this isn't what it appears to be.

So which of these three is east?

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:29 (twenty years ago)

A passenger's backpack blew apart, but did not cause further damage.

Very strange, a failed suicide bomber perhaps?

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

Sky news saying no reports of casualties at this stage.
Lets keep fingers crossed.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

A passenger's backpack blew apart, but did not cause further damage

This is ridiculous.

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

scotland yard: 'series of indcidents'. is a suspect package an 'incident'?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

Very strange, a failed suicide bomber perhaps?

"There was a smell of smoke."

"The man who was holding the rucksack looked extremely dismayed."

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:31 (twenty years ago)

Bomb alerts don't feel normal to me although the IRA threat was always around when I was growing up and scares happened pretty regularly. But I think just getting on with it has to be the best way of dealing with this kind of interruption. "I might get blown up but I refuse to be terrorised" etc. Not very controversial I know.

Forest Pines, get your butt over here and show some solidarity or something. If you don't come, They will have won ;)

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:31 (twenty years ago)

Reports: "Gunshots heard on platform at Warren Street..."

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:32 (twenty years ago)

Cognitive Illusions?

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:32 (twenty years ago)

haha funniness

"He told me he had seen a man carrying a rucksack which suddenly exploded. It was a minor explosion but enough to blow open his rucksack. Everyone rushed from the carriage. People evacuated very quickly. There was no panic.

"I didn't see anyone injured but there was shock and fright.

"There was a smell of smoke."

"The man who was holding the rucksack looked extremely dismayed.

oh xpost

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:33 (twenty years ago)

small explosion could be the detonator.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:33 (twenty years ago)

Reuters: Nail Bomb exploded at Warren Street...

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:33 (twenty years ago)

A Nailbomb at warren st apparently. Gunshots have been heard too.

xpost

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:33 (twenty years ago)

gunshots? surely not...

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

"He said that a man was carrying a rucksack and the rucksack suddenly exploded. It was a minor explosion but enough to blow open the rucksack. "The man then made an exclamation as if something had gone wrong.

well, no shit. his rucksack had just exploded.

i'm really not sure what to make of this.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

jesus.

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

Somethings happened on a bus on Hackney Road on a bus.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

Incident on bus on Hackney Road...

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

if my rucksack spontaneously combusted i'd be pretty dismayed too.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

Maybe it was a Mission Impossible agent who had accidentally pressed "Play" on his self-destructing message before he'd had a chance to listen to it.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

@text:Emergency services personnel have responded to reports of an incident on a bus in Hackney Road, junction near Colombia Road, east London, Scotland Yard said today.
mf
211333 JUL 05

fucking hell.

(xpost)

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:35 (twenty years ago)

tho i suppose gunshots could be coppers responding? ack...

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:35 (twenty years ago)

That awful feeling in my gut again. Please let this just be hype.

― NickB (NickB), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:35 (twenty years ago)

ugh. Take care of yourselves everyone. Useless to say really, but ugh.

― sgs (sgs), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:36 (twenty years ago)

"reports of gunshots" often equals "not gunshots", in fairness.

but there's something deeply unpleasant going on here, it seems. jesus WEPT.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:36 (twenty years ago)

Where are nail bomb reports coming from?

That awful feeling in my gut again. Please let this just be hype.

-- NickB (nic...)

ditto

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:36 (twenty years ago)

At this point, hype and overreation could cause panic - which would be the worst thing in a crowded location like a tube.

Argh sirens.

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

Grimly, where are you tuned into? You are getting info faster than itv.

― mzui (mzui), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

Going by the BBC, two of the trains involved were tube trains, and the third was on the Hammersmith & City Line.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

sorry: i'm at a newspaper. rolling PA wires.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

Oh god.

ILX is currently the only website which is loading AT ALL for me so all updates here would be appreciated...

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

(Hammersmith and City is a tube! Just not a very good one!)

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

I can't believe this.

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

Surely the Hammersmith & City line is completely down anyway at the moment after 7 July?

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:39 (twenty years ago)

The gunshots may have been detonaters from other bombs that didnt go off says Sky.
No casualties from the trains but dont know about bus.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:39 (twenty years ago)

Lex im watching sky news i'll keep you posted from here.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:39 (twenty years ago)

i'm posting everything new from the PA wire ... i'll be able to do this till 2pm, then i need to go to a fucking pointless meeting.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:39 (twenty years ago)

No it isn't. It's one of the non-tube Underground lines - and the evacuated part is above ground at that. This is not the place for an argument about trains, though.

(xxxpost)

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:40 (twenty years ago)

"three dummy explosions, detonators only, have gone off this afternoon" on bbc1

― sgs (sgs), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:40 (twenty years ago)

(which is bbc24 feed atm, sorry)

― sgs (sgs), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:41 (twenty years ago)

At this point, hype and overreation could cause panic - which would be the worst thing in a crowded location like a tube.
Argh sirens.

-- Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (masonicboo...), July 21st, 2005 12:37 PM. (kate) (later)

which is good because they probably don't get much access to the hype on the tube (unless they somehow get access to TV and internet)

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:41 (twenty years ago)

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/5292/hackneyroad0au.jpg

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:41 (twenty years ago)

dummy explosions? wtf?

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

Maybe it's the NOTW trying to demonstrate how security is still slack on the tube out of sensationalism public interest.

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

they probably don't get much access to the hype on the tube (unless they somehow get access to TV and internet)

Mobile phones?

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)


@text:222 lon intjw glbh Three London Underground stations evacuated, reports of incident on bus Eds: UPDATES with report of incident on bus, ADDS more from witness
LONDON (AP) — Three London Underground stations were evacuated at midday Thursday following reports of smoke and explosions two weeks after a series of terror bombings targetting London's public transport system.
Police also were investigating a report of an incident on a bus in east London.
London Underground said there were no immediate reports of casualties. One witness said he had been told by another subway passenger that a rucksack had exploded on a train.
Police said Warren Street, Shepherds Bush and Oval underground stations had been evacuated. Emergency services personnel were called to the stations, police said.
"People were panicking. But very fortunately the train was only 15 seconds from the station," witness Ivan McCracken told Sky news.
McCracken said another passenger had claimed he had seen a rucksack explode. The bombs which killed 56 people on board three underground trains and a bus in London on July 7 were carried in rucksacks, police said.
McCracken said he smelled smoke and that people were panicking and coming into his carriage.
McCracken said he spoke to an Italian man who was comforting a woman after the evacuation.
"He said that a man was carrying a rucksack and the rucksack suddenly exploded. It was a minor explosion but enough to blow open the rucksack," McCracken said.
"The man then made an exclamation as if something had gone wrong. At that point everyone rushed from the carriage."
Services on the Victoria and Northern lines were suspended following reports of a number of incidents, London Underground said.
"I was in the carriage and we smelt smoke - it was like something was burning," said Losiane Mohellavi, 35, who was evacuated at Warren Street.
"Everyone was panicked and people were screaming. We had to pull the alarm. I am still shaking," Mohellavi said.

211242 jul 05GMT

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:43 (twenty years ago)

all tubes being stopped at the next station

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

(xpost) that's the most cogent report so far. thank fuck "no casualties" at the moment.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

NOTW wouldn't be that bad, would they? the fake sheikh guy?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

they probably don't get much access to the hype on the tube (unless they somehow get access to TV and internet)
Mobile phones?
-- Forest Pines (forestpine...), July 21st, 2005 12:42 PM. (ForestPines) (later)

on the tube??

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

no, they wouldn't. (xpost)

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

still sirens around... WISH I TOOK LUNCH SOMEWHERE FURTHER AWAY! I'd have been on such a long lunch hour right now.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

mobile networks seem to be down?

― toby (tsg20), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

oh how i detest live rolling news coverage when they don't really know anything.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

The whole Fog of War effect is extremely disorientating and confusing.

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

> Surely the Hammersmith & City line is completely down anyway at the moment after 7 July?

i think so. ShepBush central line also has been so reports of incidents at SB are curious. (and would probably improve things!)

newspapers exposing poor security? idiot students?

xpost

― koogs (koogs), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

1) I hope everything is all right
2) This really isn't news. Well, the panic is news but there isn't neccesarily anything to panic about in anything I've seen here.
3) It's very easy for me to say that, what with me not living in London.
4) Jesus, is it only a fortnight ago?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

http://img322.imageshack.us/img322/668/eustonroad9xy.jpg

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)


I suppose it's not that likely

all tubes being stopped at the next station

Do you mean all Underground trains?

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

Re NOTW – I'd be surprised too. Almost wishful thinking.

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

so what happened to mr rucksack? surprised he wasn't ripped limb from limb by NOTW readers tbh.

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

yeah in the same sky news article they managed to say "there's no panic" and "everyone panicked"

genius

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:47 (twenty years ago)

Everyone panicked in the sky newsroom but the public took it in their stride perhaps :/

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:48 (twenty years ago)

(can i suggest just linking to large graphics rather than having them inline, just to not slow thing down? cheers)

― koogs (koogs), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:48 (twenty years ago)

Tube lines reported as not suspended now, only the three incident lines.

― mzui (mzui), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:49 (twenty years ago)

Reports of a shooting at Warren Street.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:50 (twenty years ago)

are those SKY images actually related to the stories in the bar? the top one is at the bottom of hackney road --- but is that the bus in question... and the bottom isn't in hackney at all i don't think but i can't think where it is

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:50 (twenty years ago)

Looks like Holborn Circus, the second one. Could be wrong, though.

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:50 (twenty years ago)

Euston road says the name of the image.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

the guardian waited till 1.51pm to put out an e-mail to subscribers. it says very little ... because, right now, there's little to say. responsible reporting does exist ... just not on sky 24, for many obvious reasons.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

second one is warren street from euston road

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

No injuries on the bus.

Thank god.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

for fuck's sake INTERN ALL MUSLIMS WITH LINKS TO JIHADIST GROUPS NOW.

― slb1, Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

Oh, now I see it. The white building looks like the Sainsburys building at Holborn.

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

Oh God no! My mother just woke me up and told me they were reporting about this on CNN here in the States. I've been away for a few days housesitting (haven't really had access to a computer until now) but I figured I'd check the reaction here.

― Ian Riese-Moraine: the crown prince of understatement. (Eastern Mantra), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

Hammersmith and City line was closed from Paddington to Barking, or wherever it goes. And it is underground, at least from Paddington to Euston Square.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

the white building is our new hospital. i work just next door to it

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

guess i'll be walking to bethnal green tomorrow, then.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:53 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4703777.stm

BBC says detonators only

our reuters box is on the fritz

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:53 (twenty years ago)

Hammersmith and City line was closed from Paddington to Barking, or wherever it goes. And it is underground, at least from Paddington to Euston Square.

It's not underground at Shepherds Bush though.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

windows blown out on the bus, but no injuries, according to reuters (via radio 5 live)?

― toby (tsg20), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

Fuck's sake...

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

bus is no.26
no injuries
just windows blown out
soz if already posted, just skimmed end of thread

― emsk, Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

and, just for those people who keep forgetting, NONE OF THE HAMMERSMITH AND CITY IS A TUBE LINE.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

(I love the British being pedantic and British about their railways, even in the midst of a crisis.)

x-post ... CRIKEY.

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

eyewitness live on bbcnews24: *pause* "sorry, moving out of the way because there are reporters everywhere and i don't want them to hear what i'm saying."
do you not realise who you're talking to? dumbass

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

for fuck's sake INTERN ALL MUSLIMS WITH LINKS TO JIHADIST GROUPS NOW.
-- slb1 (sl...), July 21st, 2005 12:51 PM. (later)

what, have sex games with them with a cigar then smoke it?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

one injury reported at warren street.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:55 (twenty years ago)

Kate: was that crikey at me? If so I'm sorry for shouting.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:56 (twenty years ago)

dahlin it sounded to me like she'd just said 'fucking' and was trying to recover from it

― sgs (sgs), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:56 (twenty years ago)

so what happened to mr rucksack? surprised he wasn't ripped limb from limb by NOTW readers tbh.
-- g-kit (kittenslikemil...), July 21st, 2005.

guardian readers are so much more tolerant of their potential assailants! this is bad news -- either incompotent bombers (detonators only) or they are trying to scare us.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:56 (twenty years ago)

makes me wonder if this is the work of some inexperienced copycats...
yay for incompetance in that case...

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:57 (twenty years ago)

Yeah I was wondering what happened to the rucksack bloke. Would not be surprised at all if he got the shit kicked out of him.

I'm a bit worried, my wife was on her way through central London and she's not answering her phone. She was supposed to be taking the Victoria line from Green Park to Finsbury Park.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:57 (twenty years ago)

Tube for me refers to the entire London Underground network, whether its actually deep level tunnels, or cut and shut, or whatever.

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:57 (twenty years ago)

(No, the X-post and crikey were about the 26 getting its windows blown out.)

((It is on the tube map and goes underground = IT IS A TUBE!!!))

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:57 (twenty years ago)

watching tv - eyewitness report from Oval said something about a man who legged it out of the station following the explosion and who wasn't caught, also manages to say "fuck" on BBC at 2pm.

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:57 (twenty years ago)

why detonators only?
is it more likely to be a blunder or a warning of sorts?

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:57 (twenty years ago)

This makes less than zero sense.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

Still not as many "fucks" as Snoop, though. (xpost)

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

Maybe it's some fucked up BNP supporters...

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:59 (twenty years ago)

I think this warrants a fuck or two.

― NickB (NickB), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:59 (twenty years ago)

I'd have thought it more likely to be a Richard Reid-style blunder.

((It is on the tube map and goes underground = IT IS A TUBE!!!))

Grrrr! ;-)

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:59 (twenty years ago)

detonators 'go off' without triggering bombs. i think this is what happens at the end of 'the peacemaker'.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 11:59 (twenty years ago)

Nicole Kidman to thread.

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

WHat the saying fuck but, the Hammersmith & City line being a tube (which it is) or these attacks two weeks on which may be meant to scare (scare being a few notches down from terror I suppose).

Yes, that is waht happens at the end of the peacemaker, just before one goes to the box office and politely requests your money back.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

First as tragedy, then as farce.

What a load of cock.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

London Underground Shuts Down In Code Amber alert

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

I'd have thought it more likely to be a Richard Reid-style blunder.
i wish the detonators had been in their shoes and blown their toes off.

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:01 (twenty years ago)

it must be pretty damn incompetent if they messed it up in all 4 occasions.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:01 (twenty years ago)

OK, someone give me a clue as to the best way to get from Finsbury Park to Victoria without using the Victoria or Picadilly lines.

I take it that this isn't at the "stay where you are" level or severity yet...

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:01 (twenty years ago)

i guess it only takes one person to badly make four bombs, thank god.

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:02 (twenty years ago)

Eve. Standard:

Witnesses at Shepherd's Bush said a man of Asian appearance was carrying a rucksack which exploded. The man jumped out of the southbound train and staggered along the tracks, they said.

Stephen Requa, a 60-year-old writer was waiting at Shepherd's Bush station when he saw the man staggering along the tracks northbound before the station was evacuated.

"I saw this guy jump down on the tracks and he was injured. He was staggering north along the tracks. He had been injured by the bomb."

"People who had been on the carriage with him said some Asian guy had been on the train with a backpack and it blew up. It knocked him down."

"I though he was drunk because he was just staggering along the tracks. They closed the station immediately."

― Alex M (Alex M), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:03 (twenty years ago)

19 bus then change to 38 bus at islington - piccadilly stretch. This route avoids the cureent incident zones which will probably have diversions.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:03 (twenty years ago)

I would give as much credence to the "dummy explosions" as I would to the "power surge".

― Venga (Venga), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:03 (twenty years ago)

The impression I get is that there are no bombs, just detonators.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

colonel, moblie networks seem to be totally fucked at the moment so try not to panic about your wife. no one in the office here can use their mobiles currently.

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

i blame dom joly

my boss just said: this is a diversion to get everyone running round in one area of london, for a later incident

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

it must be pretty damn incompetent if they messed it up in all 4 occasions.

Or maybe the bombs were all put together by one cack-hander. Xpost.

OK, someone give me a clue as to the best way to get from Finsbury Park to Victoria without using the Victoria or Picadilly lines.

District to Monument, Northern (if that bit of it's running) to Moorgate, main line service to Finsbury Park.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

The bus on camera has all windows intact and no debris on the road beside it.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

Aye, thanks Pete.

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

am fearing this is a diversion
get all emergency services somewhere then do something somewhere else
cf security experts @ g8

― emsk, Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

OK, someone give me a clue as to the best way to get from Finsbury Park to Victoria without using the Victoria or Picadilly lines.
I take it that this isn't at the "stay where you are" level or severity yet...

-- James Mitchell (jame...), July 21st, 2005 1:01 PM. (James Mitchell) (later)

how about bus? 29 or 253 to camden and then 24 to victoria?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

It can't be four independent cockups - it's coordinated to mirror the attacks of two weeks ago, but the person who built the bombs fucked up, or made them not work deliberately. The four would-be bombers must be both furious and terrified right now.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

OK I've got hold of my wife now, she's going to try and get the bus home to Muswell Hill instead of coming back to work. She said there's a lot of ambulances with sirens blaring.

Am hoping this is it and not a warm-up...

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

furious and terrified? good.

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

The four would-be bombers must be both furious and terrified right now.

Yeah, which is what makes so little sense. Is there such a glut of people willing to blow themselves up that four can be wasted?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

Hopefully they won't have to evacuate Lords.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

4 cock ups does seem a bit unlikely - but there are enough emergency service resources to deal with major incidents at more than one site surely, so what would be the point of diversionary tactics?

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

they are, once again, playing fucking cricket...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:07 (twenty years ago)

Could be one inept bombmaker, or a bombmaker supplied with wrong material...

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:07 (twenty years ago)

Presumably you have to have a good supply of people willing to blow themselves up for any suicide bombing campaign to work, so losing a few to prison on the way isn't exactly important. The people it's more important to lock up are the ones who send other people off to kill themselves.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:08 (twenty years ago)

4th? sky only reporting 3. did i miss something?

― koogs (koogs), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:08 (twenty years ago)

so all the 'bombers' got away on foot? fuxache.

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:08 (twenty years ago)

ah, ok, hackney bus isn't on the sky map

― koogs (koogs), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:09 (twenty years ago)

did i miss something?

3 trains and one bus again.

(xpost)

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:09 (twenty years ago)

It's not just a case of losing them to prison, it's sending them out without the right equipment then cutting them off - not good for keeping your secrets, so highly undesirable.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:09 (twenty years ago)

Well, I hope they get all the would-be's and interrogorise the bastards good and proper.

― NickB (NickB), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:09 (twenty years ago)

is it wrong to hope that the guys carrying this out were forced to confront people they just tried to kill in the cold light of day?

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:10 (twenty years ago)

Warren Street train was eastbound between Ox Circus & Warren Street, but got to station and was evacuated there.

Problem with 29/24 is it goes past UCH which may be blocked off due to Warren Street.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:10 (twenty years ago)

Martin and Ken I reckon you're right. Koogs - 3 tube plus 1 bus xpost

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:10 (twenty years ago)

on a rack. xxpost

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:10 (twenty years ago)

Four, five, maybe six buses (I can't see round corners), including three 38s, parked up outside our office at the High Holborn/New Oxford Street fork having made their passengers disembark. No traffic near TCR, I guess.

Was this some elaborate sting operation? Probably not.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:11 (twenty years ago)

Armed police have entered a hospital near warren st I think. according to sky

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:11 (twenty years ago)

Ooh that could be good news

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:12 (twenty years ago)

this just sounds weird. an odd time of day, too, surely? or maybe that's the point.

incidentally what exactly is a detonator? excuse my ignorance...

― toby (tsg20), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:12 (twenty years ago)

I'm with Ronan, and I hope any who get away go after the people who sent them on the fucked-up mission.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:12 (twenty years ago)

was saying in pub only tuesday night that there's no reason it couldn't happen on a weekly basis if they had enough volunteers. (or enough decent explosive, it turns out. but remember all the extra explosive found in luton car...)

― koogs (koogs), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, it's one thing to send people off on suicide missions. They only have to stay focussed ofr a couple of hours. Sending them off to be captured (with or without their knowledge - this could just be a terror top-up) is a different matter. I am now leaning towards actual bombs, incompetently made.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

ok, now i'm imagining a cartoon-singed would-be-bomber walking into a hospital and going "i uh, fell down some stairs..."

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

Rumour (and Reuters) has it that Mr Backpack has been tracked down to University College Hospital, which has been surrounded by heavily-armed bizzies.

― Alex M (Alex M), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

Detonator (simple-minded version) is an easily-triggered explosion not big enough to do much damage, but big enough to kick off the major explosives.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

BBC saying detonators were attached to "dummy" nail bombs...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

If these fuckers survived and are captured it could be the break the security bods need to find out how big and coordinated this network might be.

xpost
a detonator is a small bomb that makes a big bomb blow up

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

University college london says sky
x-post

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

incidentally what exactly is a detonator?

It's normally a little explosive thing that gets attached to a larger chunk of explosives. When the detonator goes bang, it sets the main explosives off too.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:15 (twenty years ago)

University College London is the university, where I am now at work; University College Hospital is the affiliated hospital.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:15 (twenty years ago)

i just txted shropshire ok (and got a reply)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

Nail bombs which presumably didn't go off or there'd be more injuries.

Independent and thankfully incompetent copycats, then?

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

there really is something about the cowardice of this stuff that this kind of incident hammers home. I mean, without getting too far into the bravery/cowardice rhetoric of the last few weeks, it really is horrible to think someone could try and do something, even disrupt, again, after the atmosphere of recent days, and I say that as someone who only gets it from the UK news and these parts.

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

bbc also stressing that police "not treating this as a major incident" ??

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:16 (twenty years ago)

I don't know. I would figure potential bombers might also carry knives or something, in case of a problem.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:17 (twenty years ago)

From the When Saturday Comes messageboard:

SEVENTY TWO VIRGINS IN AFTERLIFE SAID TO BE UNHAPPY BUT "COPING"

_________________

MELANCHOLY WOULD-BE BOMBER DEVASTED BY SUICIDE FAILURE

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:17 (twenty years ago)

Could be one inept bombmaker, or a bombmaker supplied with wrong material...
-- Martin Skidmore (lonewolf.cu...), July 21st, 2005 1:07 PM. (Martin Skidmore) (later)

that's pretty rubbish, you'd think they'd have like tested one!

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:17 (twenty years ago)

"not treating this as a major incident YET" is what the bbc says

(my microscopic piece of txt news up-thread is intended to suggest that mobile networks are not entirely down)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:18 (twenty years ago)

I would figure potential bombers might also carry knives or something, in case of a problem.

Maybe they assume that because God is on their side they won't *have* any problems.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:18 (twenty years ago)

Nailbombs are particularly disgusting instruments.

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:18 (twenty years ago)

ken, GET UNDER THE DESK

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:19 (twenty years ago)

this is really confusing, just waking up now to bbc world service, take care people.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:19 (twenty years ago)

the incompetence of the police and security services in PREVENTING would-be bombers from getting on the tube bothers me more than any bravery/cowardice issue.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:19 (twenty years ago)

yeah I guess if you go to bomb something with explosives on your back you don't assume you'll need a knife to finish yourself off

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

could this be a copycat plot perchance in the fall knowledge that the FTSE 100 is starting to fall?

1320: The pound sterling falls against other currencies as word of the incidents hits the markets. The index of leading shares on London's stock exchange also falls.

(from BBC news)

― battlingspacemonkey (battlingspacemonkey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

This is glib, but to think that people in Baghdad, Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv and elsewhere deal with this week in week out...

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

xpost Yeah, Ken, take care dude. And everyone else too. This is just too fucking surreal.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

I like Carsmile's non alarmist approach ;)

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

"LONDON (AP) - Men dressed in chemical protection suits prepare to enter London's Warren St Tube station."

― Alex M (Alex M), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

steve i think "major incidence" has a specific meaning when used by police/hospitals etc.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

sorry, slightly rubbish attempt to inject humour...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

"the incompetence of the police and security services in PREVENTING would-be bombers from getting on the tube bothers me more than any bravery/cowardice issue."----------------impossible to prevent would be anythings from doin what they want to do,unfortunately.

― dan bunnybrain (dan bunnybrain), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

None of this makes any sense at all. Take care everyone.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

How are you supposed to prevent would-be suicide bombers from getting on the tube? Metal detectors? Spot searches of rucksacks? Just prevent anyone who looks even vaguely Asian from getting on the train at all?

Apart from the liberties being violated there, what about the logistics? How many millions of people use the train every day? Esp at rush hour? You can't even get conductors to check everyone's tickets at rush hour, let alone check every bag.

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

Mobile networks: couldn't initially get through to Pam (who is in West End with Ava) but after about a dozen tries, all was good.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:22 (twenty years ago)

"i saw a man running out, and people chasing him.."
go get em!!!

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:22 (twenty years ago)

x-post sociah-t-azzahole

OTM people in other countries experience this terror every hour of every day.

― battlingspacemonkey (battlingspacemonkey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:22 (twenty years ago)

"i saw a man running out, and people chasing him.."

I laughed at that image, but feel bad for it now.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:23 (twenty years ago)

heard across the office:
co-worker one: oh!! have you seen what just happened! while i was in the kitchen?
co-worker two: no, what?
co-worker one: another wicket! that's eight now!!

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:23 (twenty years ago)

dummy nail bombs? that just sounds bizarre.

phones seem to be ok-ish, btw.

is there any confirmation about this "bomber inside uch" thing? has anyone got any working online news sources other than the bbc?

― toby (tsg20), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:23 (twenty years ago)

Reuters is up, toby.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

Why are newscasters so fucking up themselves, is it not possible for them to talk to a "civilian" without sounding like they are being given a lapdance by a tramp who stinks of shit?

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

my colleagues keep referring to the cricket too. I HATE HENS CRICKET.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

news 24 mainly concentrating on COBRA meeting at the mo, not switching over to sky...

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:25 (twenty years ago)

hehhe tovely image ronan...

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:25 (twenty years ago)

How are you supposed to prevent would-be suicide bombers from getting on the tube? Metal detectors? Spot searches of rucksacks? Just prevent anyone who looks even vaguely Asian from getting on the train at all?

Well, police presence, metal detectors and spot searches would be a start. Fuck "liberties." The police are obviously more interested in harassing passengers on the 37 bus at Clapham Common about not having proper bus tickets than they are in protecting citizens from terrorist attacks.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:25 (twenty years ago)

Text from my little sister: "The police keep saying it's not a major incident...so why have they taken bloody neighbours off!?"

― JimD (JimD), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:25 (twenty years ago)

i wouldn't be totally astonished if rucksacks got banned from the tube after this.

tisssp - thanks. i couldn't get reuters to work earlier, so i'd given up on it.

― toby (tsg20), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:26 (twenty years ago)

If it were a choice between liberties being violated and innocent people being blown up, I know which I'd opt for.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:26 (twenty years ago)

the cricket is pretty much the only thing keeping me focussed right now.

― Porkpie (porkpie), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

Public willingness to queue up to have every bag searched on every journey would last maybe one day after an actual bomb.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

Fuck "liberties."

Might as well live in an extremist Islamic state then, eh? ;-)

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

"and as you can see, there are armed officers there..."
pan to copper sitting in his car, armed crossed, jaw gnawing a big wad of gum, doing FUCK ALL
ha!

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

Banning rucksacks = stopping drugs by banning small cellophane wrappings.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

would metal detectors detect plastic explosives?

we should make everyone go through a volatile isolation tank before getting on the tube, any bombs will blow up inside, killing noone but the bomber.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:28 (twenty years ago)

I wish Ava would come into the office again today.

Have you managed to get anything to eat, Ken?

That was very good, Ronan.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:28 (twenty years ago)

"metal detectors and spot searches would be a start"

X-post

So every time every person wanted to get on a Tube at any station they would have to queue up, have their bag x-rayed, empty their chage into a little tray etc?

It presents certain logistical issues, no?

Ian Blair just told everyone to stay where they are for the time being.

― Alex M (Alex M), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:29 (twenty years ago)

we need spray in a can resin like with the bomb dogs on day today.

― Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:29 (twenty years ago)

cor, that just might work. er xxxpost i think. ken c isolation tank OTM

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:29 (twenty years ago)

178-9

― Alex M (Alex M), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:30 (twenty years ago)

The problem is that banning any kind of container is no deterrent--it's perfectly possibly to put enough explosive to kill a few people in your mouth, which will detonate when you snap your jaw shut.

Contrived example, I know, but I just want to illustrate that banning rucksacks would be pointless--i.e. Martin S OTM.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:30 (twenty years ago)

I thought they were planning to have sniffer dogs on the tube. I was thinking about this though, surely when said dog gets a scent it's going to start reacting and stuff (dribbling, whatever dogs do when they smell explosives), and cause the bomber to panic, resulting in badness?

Plus, dogs can't look up.

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:30 (twenty years ago)

Then again, maybe that's what they said about security procedures when getting on planes. When did that start happening? I know it had been lax prior to 9/11 but when did it become widespread standard?

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:30 (twenty years ago)

Public willingness to queue up to have every bag searched on every journey would last maybe one day after an actual bomb.
-- Martin Skidmore (lonewolf.cu...), July 21st, 2005 2:27 PM. (later)

Even if they did this people could just blow up the queues of people waiting to have their bags searched. It's depressing, but if someone's determined to do it, there's nothing you can do to stop it.

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:30 (twenty years ago)

I don't think its rucksacks which are the problem, its the bombs within. You can put bombs in a briefcase, handback, record bag etc etc.

BBC are mentioning UCH incident, but not much more details.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:31 (twenty years ago)

heard across the office:
co-worker one: oh!! have you seen what just happened! while i was in the kitchen?
co-worker two: no, what?
co-worker one: another wicket! that's eight now!!

'Wicket' clearly = terrorist code for 'bomb'. Make a citizen's arrest on these colleagues of yours now please, Mark.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:31 (twenty years ago)

University College Hospital is the affiliated hospital

The guy who is head of emergency medicine (or something that makes him responsible for implementing emergency procedures for the whole hospital) is an Irish guy, and so has been on RTE radio a lot in the last couple of weeks, talking about the bombing. He's just been on to say that he has not been beeped with the special alert code that indicates a major incident, so he is not worried.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

More teleworking pls.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

I've never not seen xray machines for flights. I just used to be able to wear my shoes through them, is all.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

PA Snap:

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair appealed to Londoners to "stay where you are" in what he described as a "very serious incident".
end

― Alex M (Alex M), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

"This is glib, but to think that people in Baghdad, Jerusalem, Tel-Aviv and elsewhere deal with this week in week out...
-- Sociah T Azzahole (stevem"

touche - on fri 8th i got a call from my friend ran checking i was ok. i haven't spoken to ran since about september, other than a couple of emails back in april. he lives in tel aviv and i never, ever think to call him when anything happens there (- because he is my friend and i love him therefore it's impossible for anything to happen, presumably - stupid (and arrogant?) thinking as we have all found out), yet as soon as anything happened in london he was calling me up...

― emsk, Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:33 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps people just shouldn't be allowed to carry anything onto public transport. We've all got too much crap anyway.

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:34 (twenty years ago)

I can't remember going through an X-ray in 1973 when I was on a plane that had a bomb scare. (But then again, considering how much happened on that whole trip, small details may have escaped my infant brain.)

All this fuss about airport security began in the early 1970's after a rash of hijackings occurred. Before then, there were no security measures at airports. In 1970 the Air Marshall program began, but was limited by budget and agents flew on only a few international flights. By 1973 the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) demanded that all passengers and carry on items be searched. But it wasn't until after September 11th, 2001 that airport security was thrust into the public mindset. Armed with only box cutters they had carried on the plane, 19 terrorists on four planes hijacked those planes. Shortly afterwards, the TSA was formed and Congress demanded all airport screeners be federal employees. Before then, most security at airports was performed by private contractors. There are now more than 48,000 federal airport screeners around the country. All baggage, whether carry-on or checked, must be x-rayed.

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:35 (twenty years ago)

The only slightly reasonable option is sniffer dogs for plastic explosives.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:35 (twenty years ago)

Banning rucksacks = stopping drugs by banning small cellophane wrappings.
-- Martin Skidmore (lonewolf.cu...), July 21st, 2005 1:27 PM. (Martin Skidmore) (later)

= ban australian backpackers?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

not to be glib, but i love how even the bbc describes them as "sniffer dogs." anyway, yeah, otherwise this is pretty disconcerting.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

yes police seem to be upgrading this to a "very serious incident"

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

What is the proper term for sniffer dogz?

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:37 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps people just shouldn't be allowed to carry anything onto public transport. We've all got too much crap anyway.

But we still wouldn't be safe. Someone could just hurl a grenade at a bus or something. You just have to get on with life and hope nothing else happens, and hope the police catch everyone.

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:37 (twenty years ago)

(my source = someone in the office)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:37 (twenty years ago)

ok a guy on bbc is now describing them as "loud bangs" and not explosions. even corrected himself from saying the latter.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:38 (twenty years ago)

news conference soon, this should clear things up.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:38 (twenty years ago)

What is the proper term for sniffer dogz?

Nosehounds.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps people just shouldn't be allowed to carry anything onto public transport. We've all got too much crap anyway.

But we still wouldn't be safe. Someone could just hurl a grenade at a bus or something. You just have to get on with life and hope nothing else happens, and hope the police catch everyone.

I know, I was being glib. Alternatively, we could all go naked?

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)

Anthrax or something similar crosses my mind. A small explosion would be enough to spread spores far and wide.
*fruitless and hopefully stupid speculation ends, waits for news conference like a sensible person*

― Mädchen (Madchen), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)

duder in rymans said nail bomb *had* gone off at warren street.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

I'm pretty sure that bowling the Aussies for 190 at Lords is a sign of the impending apocolypse.

― Alex M (Alex M), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

No ambulances at Shepherd's Bush, one Fire Engine, lots and lots of police. Evacuated back to the beyond the Central Line. Suggests they think there are unexploded-er-explosives on board.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

London is full of CCTV recently:

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0009OU2M8.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

Rymans: Staplers AND the truth

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

Nail bomb went off at Warren St but they were rubber nails.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

anthrax is an incredibly inefficient way of killing someone (sorry to be grisly). the bio/chem "threat" posed by terrorists always seems to me to be just that: a threat, not really something that anybody who really wanted to kill a buncha people would ever do.

then again they never caught our anthrax letter guy from a few years back, but whatever.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but those are Americans, Kate.

Admittedly the flights I would have been on would be largely to/from London and Dublin, and there's good historical reasons why those would be more secure.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

Death by anthrax is v.hard to get right, I am told. It's all in the spore size.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:43 (twenty years ago)

Andrew, the flight I was on was from London to Johannesburg. If anything, *that* would have had a reason to be more secure, too!

(That said, I do not remember going through X-ray machines. That does not mean they were not there.)

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:44 (twenty years ago)

OK, good. I am just being a worrier.

― Mädchen (Madchen), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:45 (twenty years ago)

basically you have to be a large industrialized nation with a ridiculous military budget to efficiently use anthrax as a weapon! just like the us, uk, russia, um er yeah...

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:45 (twenty years ago)

Well you can't see X-rays can you?

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:46 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, I was talking about the text you quoted.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:46 (twenty years ago)

You can't see X-rays (unless you are Superman) but the machines are fairly hard to miss!

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:46 (twenty years ago)

18 POLICE STATIONS SUBSTITUTE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scotland Yard said: "As a precaution officers have been deployed at Warren Street London Underground station in full protective equipment in order to carry out an examination of the scene.

"We have carried out initial examination at Oval and early indications show no trace of chemical agents."

mf

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

news conference soon, this should clear things up.

Sir Ian Blair, C/D?

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

Do not feed the pete.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

blair tells everyone not to worry then hurries off for an emergency meeting of COBRA

i guess it is too late to rename whatever cobra is the INTERIM SESSION OF WAYS and MEANS or similar, but CALLING IT "COBRA" MAKES ME WORRY!!

*blair arrives, picks up and strokes white cat*

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:48 (twenty years ago)

*john zorn sues for copyright infringement*

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

our hospital now has a message to look out for the suspect now (not sure if i can give out the details so i won't)

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:50 (twenty years ago)

Explanation of rules of cricket would be useful for North Americans trying to understand this incident. Are "loud bangs" accepted in cricket?

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:50 (twenty years ago)

xpost - mark, don't worry, just think of john zorn. unless that worries you.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:50 (twenty years ago)

*look out for the suspect!*

*what's he look like?*

*not allowed to tell you*

and we wonder how they get away with it.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

So I'm not that stupid if my "something similar" was a thought that occurred to the police too, anyway.

― Mädchen (Madchen), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

It should be called the Prompt Action National Interest Committee. That would sound reassuring.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

Cabinet Office Briefing Room A. Disappointing.

― grraham (noodles is a cunt), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

is ian blair going to meet these guys?

http://www.chud.com/graphics3/dragoncon01/dcdestrocc.jpg

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:52 (twenty years ago)

Shabaz says her place has been totally evacuated and are in the pub..

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:52 (twenty years ago)

SHE WAS IN THE PUB ANYWAY i bet.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:52 (twenty years ago)

Sir Ian Blair is telling people to remain where they are - hurrah for people in pub!

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:53 (twenty years ago)

So I'm not that stupid if my "something similar" was a thought that occurred to the police too, anyway.

you're not stupid! not at all. the police have to take every precaution necessary, i'd think.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:54 (twenty years ago)

Now she's being evacuated from the pub. That sort of happened to me once, but they called it something different, like being 'chucked out'.

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:54 (twenty years ago)

As long as she's not evacuating in the pub.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

ken, get on that! our very own supersleuth extraordinaire...

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

Prime Minister to make statement at 3.15pm

x-posts

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

let's not get our blairs in a twist here, we have IAN blair, policeman, TONY blair, so-called prime minister and LIONEL blair, dancing fool.

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

Who's Isla Blair? Was she in Home and Away?

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

and Blair of "Have Fun Go Mad" "fame."

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:57 (twenty years ago)

Selma Blair is coordinating intelligence efforts.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:57 (twenty years ago)

rubber.... nails?

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:57 (twenty years ago)

Isla Blair has been found to have been ejaculating in the pub.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:57 (twenty years ago)

What about Isla (MOD EDIT)?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:57 (twenty years ago)

for a minute i thought EUAN blair was making statements...

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:57 (twenty years ago)

John Zorn in Cricket Melee

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:57 (twenty years ago)

*look out for the suspect!*
*what's he look like?*

*not allowed to tell you*

and we wonder how they get away with it.

-- Marcello Carlin (marcellocarli...), July 21st, 2005 1:51 PM. (nostudium) (later)

well i'd imagine there's a difference between telling the immediate area concerned than telling the world.. but you know.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

She is also in the Wedding Crashers. But not germane to the issue.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

Now she's being evacuated from the pub.

This is harsh.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

(dahlin xpost)

I think you'll find that was famed saxophonist Euan Parker making some statements on his soprano saxophone.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

Don't forget Isla St Clair

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

+ eric blair = orwell
linda blair = end times now

i have been obsessing abt this for years sadly

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

It's the Which Blair Project.

― NickB (NickB), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

Ah yes, Isla St Clair. I really enjoyed her London Orbital book.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

Ken, I'll give you £10 if you catch him.

― Craig Gilchrist (Craig Gilchrist), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

http://www.robotperson.com/features/celeb_spots/images/lblair.gif

"Stay in your homes....watch old editions of Give Us A Clue on UK Wotsit."

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

Now she's being evacuated from the pub = the terrorists have won.

sorry, i don't know if any of this is in particulary good taste any more

― Britain's Jauntiest Shepherd (Alan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

robert ludlum's "the blair convergence"

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)

rubber.... nails?

Ran out of plastic nails.

They were purple.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)

ADVISE ME NOW: Shabaz has been sent home from the pub (this is harsher than anything Trig Brother ever threw at her), she wants to know whether there's any reported problems on overland trains from Charing X or London Bridge. I figured other people are better at this than me, so anyone?

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)

Not trying to be fun-hating or anything, because I know that humour is how many of us deal with fear, but would it be possible to get a bit less of the funny and a bit more of the news? Even if there isn't any?

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)

blair from "the facts of life" wasn't as cool as tootie.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:01 (twenty years ago)

whoops, ok, i need to get ready for work anyways. see y'all later.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:01 (twenty years ago)

You can't get more news if there isn't any more news.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:01 (twenty years ago)

I suspect if we get much more of this we'll all be commuting the Iain Sinclair way in future.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:01 (twenty years ago)

raston, i have heard of no reports of the overlands being shut.

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:02 (twenty years ago)

Some explain to me difference between tube and pub.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:02 (twenty years ago)

Ran out of plastic nails.

They were purple.

it's not fair to make fun of the truth-detectionally-challenged.

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

(kogan xpost)

they don't rhyme

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

Does anyone know if any buses are running in central London?? There's nothing on the TFL site. I just directed my wife to Tottenham Court Road but dunno if the 134 will be running.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:04 (twenty years ago)

Time to split this thread into another discussion thread/pure news thread? xpost Kate/Stevem

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:04 (twenty years ago)

(Btw, glad that you're all OK.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:04 (twenty years ago)

3 armed officers going into University College Hospital ?!?

― dmun drive-in (dmun), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:05 (twenty years ago)

'dummy nail bombs' wtf. fuckheads anyway.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:05 (twenty years ago)

I don't mind discussion and all that, but when you're scared out of your mind, checking the interweb compulsively, and you see there have been 50 new answers in the past 5 minutes, it makes your heart leap and think something has been announced.

And then any actual reports and info and updates get lost amidst a flurry of bad puns.

x-post

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

I see no actual need to split this thread into 2 separate ones. I see no need to even think about what the thread should be like.

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:07 (twenty years ago)

3.03: Scotland Yard confirm they have armed officers at "an incident" at University College Hospital.
In an internal memo, police asked staff to look out for a male, "black, or possibly Asian appearance", about 6ft2ins tall, wearing a blue top and carrying a holdall with wires sticking out of the top.

Bag may or may not have "bomb" written on it.

― Alex M (Alex M), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:08 (twenty years ago)

PA writethrough:

POLICE STATIONS LEAD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eyewitnesses on affected Tube lines reported seeing rucksacks which had exploded, but the damage was on nothing like the scale of a fortnight ago.

The stations affected were Warren Street, Oval and Shepherd's Bush.

Scotland Yard said officers had been deployed in full protective equipment in order to carry out an examination of the scene at Warren Street.

But a spokesman added: "We have carried out initial examination at Oval and early indications show no trace of chemical agents."

Scotland Yard also confirmed that armed officers had been deployed to an "incident" at University College Hospital, near Warren Street, where many casualties from the July 7 attacks were treated.

A spokesman said: "We are dealing with an incident at University College Hospital and we have armed officers deployed there.

"We cannot go into any further detail at this stage."

Three armed officers were seen going into the major incident unit at UCH, just minutes before someone was carried from an ambulance into the unit on a stretcher.

That followed reports that someone had been seen "running away" from Warren Street in the wake of the incident there.

Sosiane Mohellavi, 35, was travelling from Oxford Circus to Walthamstow when he was evacuated from a train at Warren Street.

"I was sitting in the carriage reading a book and I smelt something burning, like wiring or tyres, and it just got more intense.

"Suddenly people panicked and started screaming and were walking on each other's backs trying to get the hell out of there.

"I couldn't move, I didn't know what to do, whether to run or not.

"People ran and left their shoes and belongings when they smelt the burning," Mr Mohellavi said.

Victoria Line passenger Ivan McCracken told Sky News: "I was in a middle carriage and the train was not far short of Warren Street station when suddenly the door between my carriage and the next one burst open and dozens of people started rushing through. Some were falling, there was mass panic.

"It was difficult to get the story from any of them what had happened but when I got to ground level there was an Italian young man comforting an Italian girl who told me he had seen what had happened.

"He said that a man was carrying a rucksack and the rucksack suddenly exploded. It was a minor explosion but enough to blow open the rucksack.

"The man then made an exclamation as if something had gone wrong. At that point everyone rushed from the carriage."

Mr McCracken said he smelled smoke but did not see any injured passengers.

Prime Minister Tony Blair cancelled a visit to east London this afternoon as events unfolded.

London Mayor Ken Livingstone also cancelled a visit this afternoon to the Family Assistance Centre set up to help victims of the July 7 blasts in light of the current Tube incidents.

At Oval station there were also reports of a man dumping a rucksack in a carriage then fleeing as the doors closed.

Stagecoach, which owns the number 26 bus involved in today's incident, said the driver heard a bang at around 1.30pm.

The bus had left Waterloo and was in Shoreditch when the incident happened.

"The driver heard a bang which appeared to come from the upper deck. When he went upstairs to investigate, the windows on the upper deck were blown out.

"The bus is structurally intact and we don't have any reports of injuries," said a spokesman.

The Government's civil contingencies committee - known as Cobra - was meeting this afternoon in response to the latest incidents, Downing Street confirmed.

After that, Mr Blair - who was informed about the incidents during a lunch in Downing Street with Australian premier John Howard - will decide whether to go ahead with his planned meeting with intelligence and police chiefs originally scheduled to discuss the aftermath of the July 7 attacks on London.

Some Tube lines were shut down after the explosions.

A Transport for London spokesman said: "There is a Code Amber which means that the trains are being taken to the next station and passengers evacuated to above ground.

"Police are at all three stations."

mfl

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:08 (twenty years ago)

Does anyone know if any buses are running in central London??

Based on 60-second sampling here in Holborn...yes. (Two moderately-full 55s have just gone past followed by a fullish 19 and a rammed bendy of unknown number).

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

There are enough news sites out there to refer to those for actual news updates. I always find the news reporting on threads like this rather pointless other than to prompt witty one-liners.

You can't separate news from discussion - unless it's a very personal issue (as was 2 weeks ago).

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

From Nat Rail:
Mainline train stations are currently remaining open. The following train services are being disrupted:
Kings Cross Thameslink and Farringdon stations have been closed but trains are passing through the area.
Wagn services between Moorgate and Finsbury Park have been suspended.

Victoria and bakerloo lines are reopened. No service on Piccadilly Line.

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

"Suddenly people panicked and started screaming and were walking on each other's backs trying to get the hell out of there.

Yikes.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:10 (twenty years ago)

Human panic is a horrible thing.

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:11 (twenty years ago)

It seems that buses are running, but are being diverted as TCR is closed off.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

Ah, hang about - it's the big Geroff And Walk thing again; buses disgorging passengers at the traffic lights. Think it may just be police cordon-induced congestion this time rather than actual road closure.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

xpost

I think someone upthread said that other sites weren't loading for them, so posting whole news items does make some sense.

I did have a witty one liner too, but I will refrain now.

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

maybe one of the bombers is injured and in the UCH

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

the damage caused by blind panic is a scary thing to contemplate in and of itself. our train was stopped last night for about 5 minutes for an unknown reason (probably congestion), and i'm certain that at the slightest whiff of anything being out of the ordinary people would have started stampeding.

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

xpost oh good, the trains are all right, I can get home from bournemouth then.

I find the discussion reassuring, especially when it's fast-paced and involves stupid jokes witty one liners. Like talking quite fast when you're worried, you know?

Glad you all seem okay.

― cis, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:14 (twenty years ago)

the 26 is always empty in both directions at all times of day (warning: exaggeration)

but this is a very curious bus to choose

(nearly everything that has so far been reported seems very curious though)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:15 (twenty years ago)

why was isla fisher's name mod-edited?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:16 (twenty years ago)

nearly everything that has so far been reported seems very curious

otm

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:17 (twenty years ago)

Humour's always a good antidote to panic. Hope no-one's journey home is too much of a pain.

― NickB (NickB), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:17 (twenty years ago)

seems like it could be copy cats?

― scg, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:18 (twenty years ago)

why was isla fisher's name mod-edited?

just my little joke. as you were.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

nearly everything that has so far been reported seems very curious

otm

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

You can't separate news from discussion

Well, you can (e.g., if discussion of policy in regard to searching rucksacks, history of airline security, etc., had continued, it perhaps should have gotten its own thread), but I don't know if one is needed in this instance/these incidents (though I suppose some people close to the scene might want to know what lines are still running and all).

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

bbc news feed: "a memo is circulating UCH asking staff to look out for a tall man with wires protruding from his top"

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

[gah syntax checker]

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

The 30 and the 26 were my two key buses routes when I lived in Hackney. Hackney tube now! (is that banner still up?)

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

The UCH situation seems to be that a tall man "with wires sticking out of him" ran away from the Warren Street incident and into the hospital, pursued by three policemen with sub-machine guns. The hospital is still sealed off. This is according to a UCH internal memo reported just now on the BBC.

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

the wires thing is so WTF

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

The real Raston Warrior Robot wants his ID back.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)

They're using electric men as bombs!

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)

there isn't much news. i'm not far from warren street. the hot news is there are lots of copters and occasional sirens.

"the man is said to have an alarm clock hanging from around his neck"

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:21 (twenty years ago)

His eyes were glowing red and he was heard to mutter "I'll be back".

― Alex M (Alex M), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

Flavor Flav, it has come to this?

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

the bbc guy really did say "wires protruding from his top" --- presumably meaning his upper body clothing rather than the top of his head/hat

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

I will let someone else make the obvious 'joke' there.

xpost

― Flaviah T Flavahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

All they need to do is find another guy with a radio control thingy in his hand and they'll have the mastermind.

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:23 (twenty years ago)

Nick, are you back in Berlin?

― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:23 (twenty years ago)

Channel 4 report that a man threw a rucksack onto the tube train at the Oval and then ran off. Evading bystanders attempts to restrain him.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:23 (twenty years ago)

Oh no he's not. Is he saying "Get up get get down, late 999 wears the late crown"?

(10x-post)

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:24 (twenty years ago)

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/27/1084/200/Athlete%20-%20Wires.jpg

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:24 (twenty years ago)

We're all so cute...

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:25 (twenty years ago)

man arrested in whitehall outside MoD apparently (news 24)

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:25 (twenty years ago)

man arrested by armed police at downing street

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:25 (twenty years ago)

I know you are.

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:26 (twenty years ago)

Spot the glaring xpost, people.

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

does it have protruding wires?

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:28 (twenty years ago)

man arrested by armed police at downing street
-- mark s (mar...), July 21st, 2005.

about time.

― George Galloway, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:28 (twenty years ago)

wtf is going on at shep bush? 5live (ugh) are concentrating almost exclusively on that area. sealed off, loads of sirens, ppl not allowed to go anywhere...

― emsk, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:28 (twenty years ago)

(Another zany attempt on Flav's part to impress Brigitte Nielsen?)

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:28 (twenty years ago)

footage on itv; wow

― Masked Gazza, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:29 (twenty years ago)

Nick, are you back in Berlin?

Yes.

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:29 (twenty years ago)

co-worked" "unarmed police officer or one-armed police officer?"

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, is everyone okay? I'd heard reports that said no casualties. I was out wth work people. Thye'd done a very sweet, but totally unexpected leaving lunch on me (which is lovely as I'm freelance, even though I'v ebeen here nearly four months). So we stayed in the bar and drank and now I am three glasses of wine down andth e thread is moving before my eyes.

― Anna (Anna), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

(oops co-worked" = co-worker: )

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:31 (twenty years ago)

3.15 has come and gone -- has isla/ian/linda/eric made his speech?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

Shepherd's Bush? That reminds me - I thought Michael Grade said there'd be no more lame repeats.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

(now it's in the open) the memo says "blue top + hole in rear of top with wires protruding from it" presumbly a hole that was blew open from the rucksack? don't know.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:33 (twenty years ago)

no, i think COBRA is dragging on a bit. it will be tony apparently.

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:33 (twenty years ago)

or maybe some kind of richie edwards fan?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:34 (twenty years ago)

EVERYTHING IS FINE

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:34 (twenty years ago)

The man then made an exclamation as if something had gone wrong

With nervous smile “ errrrm there goes my packed lunch”

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:34 (twenty years ago)

still very hungry :\ just going to check to see if the snacks machine a floor below has food in it (it's usually empty). otherwise i'm going to have to eat the packs of ketchups i've stored up for emergencies like this (stolen from KFC)

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

tea and biscuits with COBRA.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

Everyone seems to be okay, there are no reported casualties yet (maybe one injury at Warren Street). No-one seems to be in the area, apart from Ken who is under office arrest and Starry who was evacuated from the pub.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

GI Joe will put paid to that
xpost

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

tony blair's speech begins:

"are these FUCKERS having A LAFF or what?"

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

my boss: isn't COBRA that danish arts group?

*asger jorn enters conference room, picks up white cat and stroke it*

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

Ken it's time to sacrifice a toe.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:38 (twenty years ago)

I thought Michael was looking out of the window because something was happening, so I looked out as well. What a tool.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:38 (twenty years ago)

Ken, can you order a pizza by helicopter, or something?

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:38 (twenty years ago)

Will someone please get Ken a pizza sent in!!

x-post

oops!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:40 (twenty years ago)

downing street man may have been an innocent tourist who spoke no english and didn't know he wz being asked to move on

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:40 (twenty years ago)

ken's desire for lunch will provide comic relief in the movie (played by judge reinhold) -- AND he will catch the wire man.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

YES oh my god the machine is fully stocked. now i have kit kats and skips and a can of coke.. may even have enough to share with cute office girl.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

And now it's a love story

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:42 (twenty years ago)

(Cute office girl to be played by Kirsten Dunst.)

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:43 (twenty years ago)

"Brought together through a shared love of hydrogenated vegetable oil products, one eventful day they conquered terrorism, saved the planet, and made it home in time for chips and a bit of the other"

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

Blair press conference: he's thanking John Howard for working with Britain in Afghanistan and Iraq. No mention yet of the fact that these incidents form a Christian cross on the map of London.

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:46 (twenty years ago)

is this the press conference? if so, it's LAME. australia? who cares! (ps: i want kit kat!)

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:47 (twenty years ago)

Judging from Blair's 'speech' he seems not terribly bothered about todays events.

― mzui (mzui), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:47 (twenty years ago)

my stomach's stood down from amber alert now. and cute girl loves me cos she hasn't had any lunch.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:47 (twenty years ago)

Blair press conference: he's thanking John Howard for working with Britain in Afghanistan and Iraq. No mention yet of the fact that these incidents form a Christian cross on the map of London.

Thank you Dan Brown.

― mzui (mzui), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:48 (twenty years ago)

"they just had pictures on the news of the guy with his shirt stripped
open and a load of police with submachine guns pointing at him just
outside downing street."

missive from the missus.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:48 (twenty years ago)

No mention yet of the fact that these incidents form a Christian cross on the map of London.

I think it's pretty irrelevant given how Christians, Muslims, Jews and aetheists alike all died in the attacks a fortnight ago.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:49 (twenty years ago)

oval, shepherds bush, warren st and hackney don't make a great cross, do they?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:49 (twenty years ago)

I think it's pretty irrelevant given that any four points are likely to make some kind of cross!

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:50 (twenty years ago)

so no groups are rushing to claim responsibility for this then?
"we are the Inept Liberation Xecutionorz!"

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:50 (twenty years ago)

my mom was on a 30 bus at warren st as they were evacuating. she got off, freaked slightly at the sight of people stampeding, and went for gnocci and wine. i finally convinced her to leave the area to go to her flat in case she was cordoned in or some such.

she said it was very scary to be there. but then again, she was probably drunk when she told me that, so who knows.

― colette (a2lette), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:51 (twenty years ago)

I think it's pretty irrelevant given how Christians, Muslims, Jews and aetheists alike all died in the attacks a fortnight ago.

It may be irrelevant in your mind, but it's not at all irrelevant in the minds of the people doing it.

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:51 (twenty years ago)

Next you'll be trying to tell me that all the Hawksmoor churches in London form a pentagram shape or something!

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:52 (twenty years ago)

Splitters!

― mzui (mzui), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:52 (twenty years ago)

(the incidents DON'T form a cross really, they form a T)

(cf borges "death and the compass") (for a totally irrelevant "clue")

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

so no groups are rushing to claim responsibility for this then?
"we are the Inept Liberation Xecutionorz!"

oh fuck. it's going to be Fathers For Justice, isn't it?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

Spookily, all the Hawksmoore churches in London are fronted by grassy knolls.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

i still blame dom joly

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:54 (twenty years ago)

God bless incompetence: I heard something had happened when I came in to work this morning, and I was half-ready to just go right back home and sit around feeling terrible for all of you. This thread's a relief, compared to what I was imagining.

Take care, everyone.

― nabiscothingy, Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:54 (twenty years ago)

or even "Hawksmoor"

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:54 (twenty years ago)

xx-post

The bombers of two weeks ago intended to make a cross, but failed due to the Northern Line being closed. This looks like another botched attempt. Here's hoping it's not a case of third time lucky.

― bg (creamolafoam), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:55 (twenty years ago)

I think the Star of David Pub Crawl may have given them the idea.

Hang on, four things always make a cross, and a square. And the Thames looks like the Very Hungry Caterpillar.

Ken, please take a picture of the cute girl with your camera phone. Now is your chance.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:55 (twenty years ago)

(Might be a different kind of cross: Iron cross, for instance.)

(xpost)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

oh fuck. it's going to be Fathers For Justice, isn't it?

look out for a man dressed as the Green Goblin with wires protruding from his ass?

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

tottenham court road update: here come the hare krishnas!

― Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

due to the comparative lack of tube south of the river they are never going to make an ideal cross.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:57 (twenty years ago)

The Parliament Street (Whitehall) entrance to my office has just been shut on the orders of the police. More generally, we're being told to stay put unless it is essential we leave the building. Lots of sirens.

― Jeff W (zebedee), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:57 (twenty years ago)

Mark, I first thought of the arts group that was based on COpenhagen BRussels Amsterstam, I think. Then I thought that GI Joe or some such fought C.O.B.R.A., but I might be wrong, and in any case can't recall what it stood for.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:57 (twenty years ago)

Met Police sez: Situation Under Control

whatever the fuck that means

― mzui (mzui), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:58 (twenty years ago)

@text:Mr Blair, speaking in No 10 alongside Australian Prime Minister John Howard, who was in London for routine talks, said: "I heard about this as I was in the middle of the lunch meeting.
"I have then chaired the Cobra meeting at 2.30pm.
"I have just spoken to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner and his hope is that things can get back to normal as soon as quickly as possible.
"We can't minimise incidents such as these, all I would like to say is this -we know why these things are done, to frighten people and make them anxious and worried.
"Fortunately in this instance there appears to have been no casualties. We have just got to react calmly."
The Prime Minister said he would be returning to his schedule of meetings as Sir Ian and the Security Services are now fairly clear as to what had happened.
"We hope that we can get the rest of the transport system back up and running again as soon as possible," he said.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:59 (twenty years ago)

Four things not making a cross:

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/694/fourthingsnotmakingacross9xl.jpg

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 13:59 (twenty years ago)

In the States, COBRA it is a kind of insurance you can pay for after you lose or quit your job - Collection Of Benefits R-something A-something, I think.

(cf borges "death and the compass") (for a totally irrelevant "clue")
Yeah, I keep thinking about that, that these guys have been scooped by a Rabbinical detective story!

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:00 (twenty years ago)

Next week I full intend to leave fairy cakes around the tube network in the shape of a lazy cat:

http://www.animalsontheunderground.com/images/lazy_cat_back2.gif

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:00 (twenty years ago)

Four things not making a square:

http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/4200/fourthingsnotmakingasquare9vh.jpg

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:00 (twenty years ago)

Hey, how did you do that?!

That originally referred to four things not making a cross, but that has been usurped by Jerry The Nipper's artistic genius.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:01 (twenty years ago)

Those are the same four things, you just coloured them in differently.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:02 (twenty years ago)

But they still don't make a square. The red ones kind of make a twisted cross, so I guess there's a payoff somewhere.

― Huey (Huey), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

Well, if the oval were the symbol of a major world religion, the symbol of "crusades" which the fundamentalists responsible for these incidents think it's in their interests to rekindle, I would have said the shape was an oval. Let's not deliberately read this message against the grain, though. The "four points, east north west and south" pattern has repeated each time and been mentioned in the responsibility claims. Tony Blair has every interest in ignoring that message; we don't.

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

Actually I tried to do the cross thing, and the angles are a bit wonky, line from Warren Street to Oval is a bit more slanted from the perpendicular than the Bethnal Green/Shepherd's Bush one. Also it would be a Cristian Cross on its side too.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

G.I. Joe's COBRA not an acronym, just capitalised for effect, according to Ian Blair.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/RJG/fourthingstmakingacross9xl.jpg

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

i suppose you'd really need 5 things to make a cross. otherwise it could be mis-interpreted, as a kite, for example.

― bg (creamolafoam), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

momus:

1. shut up

2. see 1

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:05 (twenty years ago)

Continuation of Benefits

I've always suspected the acronym is cleverly fashioned to be the imperative of the Spanish verb cobrar- to collect (money owed to you).

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:05 (twenty years ago)

PJ if you follow JTN's image to the site where it came from, you will find an assortment of animals 'see' in the tube network.

Momus should do the horoscopes in The Mirror. In fact, if you grew your hair a little you could easily pass for Justin Tope.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:05 (twenty years ago)

3. invesigate the involvement of sir william gull in this

― grosvenor lucrece, Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

rjg has actually revealed the four points to form the shape of a HORRIBLE DOG

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

Depends whether you use a tube map or a 'real' map too. And 4 points of the compass is also a pretty standard reference. I don't think it's really an oval, except there was an incident at Oval so maybe its not so tenuous after all!!!1!

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

It was actually supposed to be in the shape of a "Two Headed Dog," protesting the gross indifference shown on Roky Erikson's birthday last Thursday.

Death and the Compass

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:07 (twenty years ago)

I do apologize for interrupting the Kit Kat jokes. Carry On ILX.

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:08 (twenty years ago)

Nick, the guy is locked up in his office. What is he supposed to do?

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

Well, if the oval were the symbol of a major world religion, the symbol of "crusades" which the fundamentalists responsible for these incidents think it's in their interests to rekindle, I would have said the shape was an oval. Let's not deliberately read this message against the grain, though. The "four points, east north west and south" pattern has repeated each time and been mentioned in the responsibility claims. Tony Blair has every interest in ignoring that message; we don't.
-- Momus (nic...), July 21st, 2005.

wtf are you on about?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

shepherd's bush is like a reference to burning bush and moses isn't it? moses momes momus now it's all clear!

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

No wait Momus is onto something! Maybe the cross speculation indicates that there was a religious motive for the terrorist attacks!!!!!

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:10 (twenty years ago)

wtf does "We can't minimise incidents such as these" mean?? is he mad? maybe we can't prevent them, but minimising is surely pretty much by definition what we can do?

the reports from oval sound pretty crazy - guy runs on to train, drops back, runs off again.

― toby (tsg20), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:10 (twenty years ago)

other oh-so-spooky signifiers - lyets lyook at the evidence...

Shepherds BUSH...

That Afghan warlord who relocated to Streatham probably HACKED a few KNEES in his time...

The signed photo from Paul Daniels...


Dyavid, it's over to you.

― Lloydiah T Grossahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:11 (twenty years ago)

If you snap a Kit Kat and twist the two bars on top of each other... oh, forget it.

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:11 (twenty years ago)

No wait Momus is onto something! Maybe the cross speculation indicates that there was a religious motive for the terrorist attacks!!!!!
-- Tom (freakytrigge...), July 21st, 2005.

shhh! tony blairs want to cover it up.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:11 (twenty years ago)

"We can't minimise incidents such as these"

er, right -- that whole war on terror thing?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:12 (twenty years ago)

Then you end up with a crumbly chocolatey mess, Momus. Stick to the point won't you?
xxpost

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:12 (twenty years ago)

Tom, thank you for clarifying that and allowing the cool breeze of Momus's brilliance to waft through the Septic YTank of my mind.

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:12 (twenty years ago)

oh my goodness! you Londoners are a resiliant group I'll say that - Flavor Flav jokes in the midst of second major bombing attack - our US news while not as reliable as what you're seeing there says it could have been pretty serious (AGAIN 4 places were affected by this mornings bomb "attempts") one person dead just from being perhaps trampled by folks running out of the tube stations. One of the wired backpack blokes is in hospital with injuries, but they will likely get info out of him at some point. Good luck to you all today, it's not a happy time in the world; particulalry London. Makes me feel sad and angry, but your kidding around here has helped me. Thanks.

― Wiggy (Wiggy), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

The Western Allies clearly need to stop trying to crumble the Kitkat and learn to suck tea through it instead.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:13 (twenty years ago)

Have just got message from mamagement here saying that Metropolitan Police said that they have the incident under control and to go home as usual. If your train is running.Which it might not be.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:15 (twenty years ago)

I do apologize for interrupting the Kit Kat jokes. Carry On ILX.
-- Momus (nic...), July 21st, 2005 3:08 PM. (Momus) (later)

yeah. my hunger and suffering is all a fucking JOKE to you. fuck off.

fucking fanny fartface.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:15 (twenty years ago)

And what colour is the Kit Kat wrapper? COMMUNIST RED

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

mamagement? is your mam in charge of soas now?

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

You can't be an infidel AND invent the Caramac Kitkat.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:17 (twenty years ago)

and and and and and they stopped putting silver foil in kitkats so that you can't make tinfoil hats and and and and now the government can CONTROL YOU FROM SPACE.

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

(if ever i wanted someone to say "g-kit OTM", it's now)

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

Hope your 'suffering' doesn't last too long Ken

http://www.ucnet.com/papa/pizza.jpg

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

N/S/E/W may just be a matter of trying to demonstrate coverage -- we span the city, no corner is safe, etc.

Llorott is both right and wrong.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

Five Live presenters saying they are not very good at geography. Prove it by saying that Westminster & UCH are five miles apart.

GET ONE MAP.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:19 (twenty years ago)

i've heard the scots are to blame for no more foil in kitkats.

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:19 (twenty years ago)

How so? Hein?

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:20 (twenty years ago)

Kitkat got our firm to research whether or not they shd get rid of the foil, our results said "NO!" but did they listen? Did they hell. I felt so impotent.

(Just like when I marched against the war and it still happened)

(That bracket just for you, Momus)

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)

WAit wait wait, when did kitkats lose the foil!?!?!

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)

ah I thought the foil removal might have something to do with attempted deep-frying.

― sgs (sgs), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)

oh it's okay billy dods. it's all under control now. alert's been stood down.

thanks for the pizza gif though.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

oh my goodness! you Londoners are a resiliant group I'll say that - Flavor Flav jokes in the midst of second major bombing attack - our US news while not as reliable as what you're seeing there says it could have been pretty serious (AGAIN 4 places were affected by this mornings bomb "attempts") one person dead just from being perhaps trampled by folks running out of the tube stations.

No confirmed dead, injured between 0 and 1, this is pretty low on the scale of bombing in London over the last 10 or so years; Bishposgate, Canary Warf, Brick Lane, Brixton and Old Compton St were all worse (IRA and white supremacist bombs)

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

no, we use the foil to keep our haggis fresh in the fridge.

― bg (creamolafoam), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:22 (twenty years ago)

Won't get foiled again.

― Rogiah T Daltreole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

the urban myth re: no foil in kitkats is that scummy junky scots using the wrappers to smoke bad drugs were such a problem that the foil packaging was banned. see also: all the uv lighting in public toilets.

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:23 (twenty years ago)

llonrott is trapped in the web of his own textual cleverness

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:24 (twenty years ago)

I think you were supposed to print it out and eat it. Preferably printed to deep pan paper with cheese ink.

xxx-post

― NickB (NickB), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:24 (twenty years ago)

Last place I lived in sheffield ths junkie would bang on my door at all hours and ask for 'tinfoil for me car'

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:24 (twenty years ago)

WAit wait wait, when did kitkats lose the foil!?!?!

you obviously haven't had a kitkat in SO LONG that i don't believe you really care.

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:24 (twenty years ago)

ah I thought the foil removal might have something to do with attempted deep-frying.
I joined Sinister for about five minutes a few years back and all I can remember is somebody going on about deep-fried pizza or mars bars. I can't remember whether they were pro or con. For all I know it was ken himself!

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:25 (twenty years ago)

There is a bus jam, but I think it's just a normal bus jam.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:25 (twenty years ago)

no, as well as all being junkies, we're notoriously mean. and a tiny bit of haggis is worth saving. a kit kat's foil is just the right size to save a wee morsel for later.

― bg (creamolafoam), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:25 (twenty years ago)

alert's been stood down

And Ken's been stood up! All's right in London.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:26 (twenty years ago)

fire trucks have been going up cleveland st towards warren st.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:26 (twenty years ago)

the uv lighting is kind of freaky, though.

― lauren (laurenp), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:27 (twenty years ago)

is it really true that you can't see your veins under UV light?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)

i thought the uv ban was a bit much, we're all ginger you see, our veins are easily visible through our peely wally skin.

― bg (creamolafoam), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)

i hereby vote for "fucking fanny fartface" to be adopted as an ilx meme!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)

It's okay, I was worried bout the kitkats losing foil as the last few days I have been eaiting foil-wrapped kitkats. But then I realised after a discussion wit' the office that infact it's only 4-bar 'kats that have no foil. Mystery resolved.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:29 (twenty years ago)

Sky news now says armed police have gone back into that hospital.
and that they think the explosives on that bus may be the same as 2 weeks ago and not a nail bomb. But it hasnt gone off. When the 1st bangw as heard (detonators?) people were covered in a white powder type stuff (Acetone?)

I'm aware the white powder stuff is just waiting for a joke to be made...
but not from me.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:29 (twenty years ago)

xpost Marcello seconded

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:29 (twenty years ago)

the urban myth re: no foil in kitkats is that scummy junky scots using the wrappers to smoke bad drugs were such a problem that the foil packaging was banned

I thought my line way upthread about fighting drugs by banning bits of wrapping cellophane was a joke.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:29 (twenty years ago)

www.bbc.co.uk is now reporting 2 men have been detained in connection with the tube blasts.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:32 (twenty years ago)

white powder type stuff (Acetone?)

No, acetone is my favorite solvent. (ie nail polish remover)

I fear a backlast against chemists.

― marianna, Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

personally the true conniseur goes for 1-1-1 tri-chloro-ethane

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:34 (twenty years ago)

It is actually a TRIANGLE pointing towards Crystal Palace.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/maps_and_graphs/2005/07/21/london_bombs_july21_map3.gif

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:35 (twenty years ago)

it's inverse masons

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:35 (twenty years ago)

By "detained" I kind of hope they mean "beaten three-quarters to death over a three hour period by enraged commuters". Seems I *have* reached the anger stage after all :(

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:36 (twenty years ago)

The Western Allies clearly need to stop trying to crumble the Kitkat and learn to suck tea through it instead.

Damn right. I tried to this with a chunky Kit Kat on a plane back from hamburg, and the width means you can't get any suction (missus!) so I ended up with it all over my face and hands (oo-er!).

The plane then began it's descent so I couldn't wash it off as the seat belt sign came on.

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:36 (twenty years ago)

If you superimpose the other explosions' triangle, do you get a Star of David?

― Rum, Sodomy and the LAN (kate), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:37 (twenty years ago)

RELAX. the sainsbury's imitation kit-kats, called double-take, do have foil.

― Britain's Jauntiest Shepherd (Alan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:37 (twenty years ago)

= The terrorists have not won

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:39 (twenty years ago)

but the junkies have!

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:40 (twenty years ago)

Such is the price of freedom

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:40 (twenty years ago)

The other explosions quadrilateral fits inside this one though.

The terrorists may not have won, but the Australians probably have.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:41 (twenty years ago)

it's paper backed imitation foil and doesn't work for 'Have a Break' purposes.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:41 (twenty years ago)

cnn headline news just reported that someone was "partially killed."

can anyone parse that? am i actually awake? please pinch me.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

white powder type stuff (Acetone?)

No, acetone is my favorite solvent. (ie nail polish remover)

I fear a backlast against chemists.

They definitely said something like 'Acetone Peroxide'.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

By "detained" I kind of hope they mean "beaten three-quarters to death over a three hour period by enraged commuters".

Good point, Markelby. It really is time for torture to be legalised in the U.K. Surely in any civilised country potential victims should have the legal right to beat their potential assailants to within inches of their lives!

― Jane B., Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:43 (twenty years ago)

UK schools have redefined 'fail' as 'deferred success', amst, so it's all making sense to me.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:43 (twenty years ago)

People in offices near St Paul's warned to move to back of bulding but I don't know which side of the building that means

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:44 (twenty years ago)

'Acetone Peroxide'

that sounds like some brand of hair dye.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:44 (twenty years ago)

how can anyone be partially killed?
one casuality.. not a fatality
meaning, injured. not killed

― dahlin (dahlin), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:45 (twenty years ago)

It is actually a TRIANGLE pointing towards Crystal Palace.

http://www.homerize.com/framegrabs.php?img=1F09/fg_054.jpg

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:45 (twenty years ago)

@text:222 lon intjw glbh LONDON BOMBINGS - URGENT
LONDON (AP) — Police spokesman reports that men arrested in connection with today's bombings found in possession of Sainsbury's "Double-Take" explosives.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:45 (twenty years ago)

Curses. http://www.homerize.com/framegrabs.php?img=1F09/fg_054.jpg

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:46 (twenty years ago)

Didn't someone upthread say US media reporting sbdy trampled to death in panic on tube?

― beanz (beanz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:46 (twenty years ago)

next time someone causes me to get a splinter or suchlike i'll accuse them of having "partially killed" me. likewise with anyone who serves me a beer.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:47 (twenty years ago)

"That hit the fractionally fatal spot!"

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:51 (twenty years ago)

maybe a dead leg or something.

i dunno if i'm comfortable discussing what partially dead means at the moment when it's related to someone who is currently apparently in this state.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:52 (twenty years ago)

If they serve you a beer they are partially killing, partially lovin'.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:52 (twenty years ago)

What'd I miss?

― OLD SPICE® CHEMTRAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (ex machina), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:52 (twenty years ago)

have they caught the wireman?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:53 (twenty years ago)

next time someone causes me to get a splinter...

"hey, rub your face against this old fence!"

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

Sky says A suspect has been chased into Euston Square.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:55 (twenty years ago)

Our building is fully open again.

― Jeff W (zebedee), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:56 (twenty years ago)

doh.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:56 (twenty years ago)

Ahh now theyre saying it was a robbery. and nothing to do with the bombings.

In an area with about 2000 policemen. It beggars belief.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 14:57 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4704031.stm

Trains on two Tube lines are not running as drivers are refusing to work after security alerts on the network.

The Piccadilly and Bakerloo Lines are shut because of what London Underground is describing as staff action.

The Hammersmith and City Line is closed and the Northern and Metropolitan Lines are running with restrictions.

The Oval, Warren Street and Shepherd's Bush (Hammersmith and City Line) Tube stations remain closed after being evacuated shortly after 1230 BST.

Thameslink trains are not stopping at King's Cross, Farringdon and St Albans.

Midland Mainline trains are not running into or out of St Pancras because of an alert at St Albans station.

The Metropolitan Line is not running south from Baker Street. Moorgate mainline station is also closed.

Buses are operating as normal.

Police are advising people to stagger their journeys home due to the disruption on many lines.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:05 (twenty years ago)

Police are advising people to stagger their journeys home

official advice to GO PUB, marvellous there.

― CarsmileSteve (CarsmileSteve), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:07 (twenty years ago)

(xpost)

Police are advising people to stagger their journeys home due to the disruption on many lines.

hoo, the joke potential in this sentence is too vast to contemplate.

seriously: what, they expect several million commuters to get together and work out a plan? "after you, old chap." "no, i insist. i couldn't possibly." etc.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:07 (twenty years ago)

I had almost forgotten about David Copeland until recently. What an 'orrible cunt.

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:08 (twenty years ago)

Jane B, you haven't been following ILX much over the last couple of weeks? Apologies for having vengeful thoughts about suicide bombers after one of my close friends was on the receiving end two weeks ago.

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:08 (twenty years ago)

Yes in the circumstances I feel 'Jane' should fuck off.

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:10 (twenty years ago)

my boss just told us that she was in BIBA's when the angry brigade bombed it in the 70s!!

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:11 (twenty years ago)

My boss was on the Bay Bridge when it collapsed during the last earthquake.

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:12 (twenty years ago)

They never really caught the Angry Brigade did they. I know they arrested and tried people, but that was the seventies.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:17 (twenty years ago)

everyone wore bell bottoms and had long hair, it was impossible to tell anyone apart.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:18 (twenty years ago)

Are the Angry Brigade like the Weather Underground?

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:19 (twenty years ago)

ok i am going to stagger my journey home!! keep safe ppl

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:19 (twenty years ago)

"It was confirmed that the blast on the bus was that of the bomb's detonator and the explosives themselves didn't actually blow up. The explosives remain on the bus and bomb disposal specialists and robotics are in the process of removing the bomb."

From the Wiki entry.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:21 (twenty years ago)

they've cancelled the recording of the show i was taking my mom to tonight. which means i have to think of something to entertain her. damn the bombers.

anyone want to take my mom out for a drink?

― colette (a2lette), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:24 (twenty years ago)

I'm hoping not to stagger my journey home, but speed all the way to SE19 on an express-type bus wiv da missus and da baby. This may not be possible in the circumstances.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:26 (twenty years ago)

Get Chris drunk, he'll do it.

"YR MY BEST FREIND"

xpost

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:26 (twenty years ago)

I'll be in the Angel on St Giles if you think my funny face would amuse her.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:27 (twenty years ago)

It amuses me and I am a steel hearted robot.

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:29 (twenty years ago)

My face just made her cry.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:29 (twenty years ago)

Are we talking about Colettes mum still?

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:32 (twenty years ago)

I wasn't but others may well have been.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:34 (twenty years ago)

Just cycled home:

Not liking the new pedestro-cyclo utopia that Totenham court road has become as pedestrians are not aware of cyclists. TCR buses running up and down southampton road as far as I can see, some 30s laid up in charlotte st but some things seem to be running, lots of people walking home.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

Are Pam and Ava coming up this way, then? If so, I would like to say hello.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:41 (twenty years ago)

(Yes, I believe they're coming into the office. Let the cooing commence.)

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:42 (twenty years ago)

edandsuzy i am gonna be in your manor around 7ish. i will wave up at your window.

― emsk, Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:44 (twenty years ago)

x-post
will there be cooing tomorrow?

― Vicky (Vicky), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:44 (twenty years ago)

Oh good. I will take my time.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:47 (twenty years ago)

anyone want to take my mom out for a drink?
-- colette (a2lett...), July 21st, 2005 4:24 PM. (a2lette) (later)

go on colette, do it

take your mama out all night.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:49 (twenty years ago)

Is the Tube totally shut down then? I might just stay here and work until it gets dark... I've got about enough sitting on my desk.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:57 (twenty years ago)

Totally mystifying police press conference on Radio 5 right now.

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:58 (twenty years ago)

no comment
no comment

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Thursday, 21 July 2005 15:58 (twenty years ago)

"I can neither confirm or deny anything except to say the tubes are busy as fuck and I can never get a copy of the Metro."

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:01 (twenty years ago)

(I don't know whether Pam & Ava will be coming to the pub; we're not going to Brentwood.)

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:01 (twenty years ago)

Why bother holding this press conference? Insulting rubbish.
The Tube is not totally shut down. Red Ken says check his website.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:02 (twenty years ago)

Looks like Central and Northern lines are running. But don't take my word for it. (As if you would.)

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)

Is the Tube totally shut down then? I might just stay here and work until it gets dark... I've got about enough sitting on my desk.

if not matt you can always do some of mine..

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:06 (twenty years ago)

http://www.redken.com is looking really swish!

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:07 (twenty years ago)

ken's new hairdo is stylish, if a little feminine

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:07 (twenty years ago)

"stagger my journey home" sounds like some cod-folk nick cave song

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:23 (twenty years ago)

Thameslink trains are not stopping at King's Cross, Farringdon and St Albans.

WTF?

― Si.C@rter (SiC@rter), Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:47 (twenty years ago)

i got the northern line going north from morningtown crescent about 5.30. i was the first guy. they all knew. i was there. er, yes, but anyway, it was running. dunno if it ran south tho.

― Enrique, naked in an unfamiliar future where corporations run the world... (Enri, Thursday, 21 July 2005 16:59 (twenty years ago)

my friend got it southbound hampstead-e&c at 4.

...bit late with this info, arent i?

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 21 July 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)

Is anyone else just waiting for someone - Ian Blair, The Sun, whoever - to announce that the bombers didn't have enough explosives to mount "proper" attacks because the police recovered the explosives from that car at Luton railway station, thus linking the two attacks together AND proving that the police thwarted this week's attempt?

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:12 (twenty years ago)

I'm so glad you guys are all OK. And I hope you all got home (or to a pub) safely with your 'staggered commute' and whatnot. (;

― lyra (lyra), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:53 (twenty years ago)

"stagger my journey home" sounds like some cod-folk nick cave song
-- Amateur(ist) (amateuris...), July 21st, 2005.

(snigger)

― piscesboy, Friday, 22 July 2005 01:32 (twenty years ago)

The legendary resilience of Londoners does seem to involve an awful lot of going to the pub.

Tube was fine this morning. I am fed up of avoiding it.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 22 July 2005 06:44 (twenty years ago)

A good song about legendary resilience

― Ed (dali), Friday, 22 July 2005 06:52 (twenty years ago)

gee... they haven't caught any of them?

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 22 July 2005 07:01 (twenty years ago)

Good grief. (When Marco told me about this yesterday after I got back from Venice I thought he was joking.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 July 2005 07:16 (twenty years ago)

I think the most likely situation is that they are using an old batch of acetone peroxide, maybe the same batch as before, which has degraded in the meantime, rendering it less dangerous. It could be oxidation, loss of one of the ingredients, gain/loss of moisture or whatever - a slight change in composition could change the amount of energy needed to set it off.
Another possibility is that they tried to make some without the chemist who fled to egypt, and lacked the skill to synthesise it correctlt.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 22 July 2005 07:55 (twenty years ago)

Ned I really think you should stop coming to England dude.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 22 July 2005 07:56 (twenty years ago)

I thought old explosicves just became "unstable", not unusable. Or does that just apply to commercially available/stealable explosives? But I don't understand anyway.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 22 July 2005 07:57 (twenty years ago)

Ned I really think you should stop coming to England dude.

That wouldn't be fun, though!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:01 (twenty years ago)

blair's response to this was shit. in one sense, yesterday was 'as bad as' two weeks ago: there is more than one crew of psycho bombers out there, and there could easily have been bloodshed again. blair's chummy 'we all know why' thing can go eat a dick. they don't do this to 'scare' us, they do it to kill us. i've argued that iraq wasn't the sole cause for this but god knows blair has made some bad decisions, and is of course a proven liar. he should at the very least acknowledge that by going to war he made this more likely. that wouldn't actually weaken the case for war one bit; what's really weak is the lying.

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 08:05 (twenty years ago)

it seems incredible that all four seem to have got away.

― stirmonster (stirmonster), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:08 (twenty years ago)

Wait on--Ned in London = Bombs
Ned coming to London again = more bombs

('cept obviously since he's only trying to come to london this time, not actually there yet--he's not gone the full extent I.E THE BOMBS DIDN'T QUITE GO OFF!! OMG ETC)

Just sayin' like.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:12 (twenty years ago)

Some mention that the Police have shot someone suspected of being a bomber at / near Stockwell tube here at the office?

No confirmation on any websites I've seen yet though, so take it with a pinch of salt I guess for now...

― MattR (MattR), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:46 (twenty years ago)

They're talking about this now on 5 Live.

― NickB (NickB), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:47 (twenty years ago)

Girl in my office phoned in, she was at the tube station where the shooting took place

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:49 (twenty years ago)

... what are the chances of that happening?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:49 (twenty years ago)

Especially as there's only 5 of us in the office!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:51 (twenty years ago)

one in X (where X is number of people in london).
i guess.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:52 (twenty years ago)

this has happened. wonder if it is one of 'the four'.

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 08:53 (twenty years ago)

and if so, i hope they shot him in the BALLS

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:53 (twenty years ago)

The BBC have just picked this up

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 22 July 2005 08:54 (twenty years ago)

man shot 5 times on tube by plain clothes police, says eyewitness on news 24

― fish monkey, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:02 (twenty years ago)

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him."

Er...

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:03 (twenty years ago)

that's a thorough interrogation if i ever saw one.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:04 (twenty years ago)

friend j just called to check i was ok, said the stockwell man was shot as he was trying to get on the train.

― emma hogan ( emsk), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:05 (twenty years ago)

well obviously the man was a strong threat ?

xpost

― Ste (Fuzzy), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:05 (twenty years ago)

if they bundled him, couldn't they have restrained? he must have been armed, i hope. otherwise it doesn't send out a good message.

― n-RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:07 (twenty years ago)

eyewitnesses confirm that the policeman was dressed as a train guard, and after the shooting, turned to other passengers and stated "No ticket."

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:08 (twenty years ago)

You've got to hope the police were pretty certain what they were up to...

― beanz (beanz), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:09 (twenty years ago)

guilty lmao @ g-kit

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:11 (twenty years ago)

mosque in east London surounded by armed police now

― mzui (mzui), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:12 (twenty years ago)

armed police have surrounded a mosque in east london, says tv

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:12 (twenty years ago)

yes but what about the mosque in east london?

― Ste (Fuzzy), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:13 (twenty years ago)

It's a bomb scare

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:13 (twenty years ago)

it's being surrounded by armed police

― mzui (mzui), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:13 (twenty years ago)

Northern and Victoria line suspended again

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:14 (twenty years ago)

sirens everywhere this morn. who would bomb a mosque? agents provocateurs? this is fucked up.

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:18 (twenty years ago)

is this the whitechapel mosque? sorry i am packing frantically and have no tv

― emsk ( emsk), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:19 (twenty years ago)

According to a guy at the mosque they've been getting phone calls for the last few weeks saying the mosque will be bombed - so sounds like a hate crime type thang

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:20 (twenty years ago)

eye witness says it is the east london mosque, whitechapel high st. area cordoned off. dog patrol gone into mosque. 2 suspect packages

― fish monkey, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:23 (twenty years ago)

lovely, that's on the bus route i was just about to get

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:24 (twenty years ago)

ugh fuck i have to get on the 38 to victoria :-/ they seem to be into exploding the hackney buses

― emsk ( emsk), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:27 (twenty years ago)

Asian man shot dead by armed police in tube station. Seems to have been overpowered and then pumped full of bullets. This is a really sinister turn of events.

― frankiemachine, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:28 (twenty years ago)

Poor old Hackney!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:28 (twenty years ago)

Eyewitness says dead guy had unusually large clothes. Possibly containing explosives? Would be the only plausible explaination giving they pumped him full of bullets.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:30 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

― frankiemachine, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:30 (twenty years ago)

Report now linking this with another attempted tube bomb, this time at Vauxhall.

― NickB (NickB), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:33 (twenty years ago)

Witness on News 24 says he was wearing a 'very, large heavy jacket'.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:33 (twenty years ago)

I just hope the police had very, very good cause. If he's been shot because he looks Asian and/acting suspiciously/running away this could ramp things up to a scary extent.

― frankiemachine, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:33 (twenty years ago)

East London mosque is a false alarm.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:34 (twenty years ago)

If he's been shot because he looks Asian and/acting suspiciously/running away this could ramp things up to a scary extent.

this is very unlikely to be the case.

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:35 (twenty years ago)

Oh really?

― Huey (Huey), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:38 (twenty years ago)

I hope you're right/wish I had your faith. Past experience of security forces behaviour in Northern Ireland/Iraq etc (there's a long list) suggest it's all too possibly the case.

x post

― frankiemachine, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:41 (twenty years ago)

Shooting at a guy that might be carrying explosives sounds like a pretty risky thing to me, especially with lots of other people around.

― NickB (NickB), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:43 (twenty years ago)

judging by the accounts of the indident, i think it was pretty unlikely that he was going to miss. sounds like point-blank range to me.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:45 (twenty years ago)

Also this:

they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him.

"I saw the gun being fired five times into the guy - he's dead.

doesn't inspire confidence. It's hard to see how the guy was posing a serious threat at the time he was shot based on that description.

― frankiemachine, Friday, 22 July 2005 09:46 (twenty years ago)

Maybe he got shot in the face.

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:48 (twenty years ago)

Maybe they could see he had a bomb. They've got orders to shoot to kill

― beanz (beanz), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:49 (twenty years ago)

perhaps we should await further news before we accuse the police of woaful incompetence

― Ste (Fuzzy), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:50 (twenty years ago)

Ste OTM

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:51 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps he was about to detonate any bomb he had on him?

― Huey (Huey), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:51 (twenty years ago)

It's confirmed, the geezer's dead, whoever he was and whatever he was up to

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:51 (twenty years ago)

for some reason i'm fairly confident about this being the right guy.

― g-kit (g-kit), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:52 (twenty years ago)

Now they'll never get the chance to push him down the stairs.

― Huey (Huey), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:54 (twenty years ago)

I really like the way Whitby responds when asked if the guy is dead

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

Passenger told BBC News: "The tube pulled into the station and we were sitting there, you know, as you do, ... "

― Ste (Fuzzy), Friday, 22 July 2005 09:57 (twenty years ago)

MORRIS: There's growing evidence this evening that suspects held in police cells are being eaten by police. This report from Ted Maul has that story.

MAUL: Four men vanish overnight from a Reading police cell. The next detainee complains of a drain blocked with caked blood and pieces of fat on his floor. A drunk man in Cheltham is banged up for the night and has his arm punched full of holes. He says the police tried to fill his arm with garlic. Just part of an increasingly muscular body of evidence that, say activists, prove suspect eating is on the increase, and that the increase is getting rapid. The best evidence of all is this - a 'Bow Street Bastard', a special truncheon used for beating suspects which tears out cubes of flesh small enough to fry. Activist Harkon Peddy says this is just one piece of evidence of suspect eating from a huge list in his head.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 10:00 (twenty years ago)

I beleive standard practice for suicide bombers is a head shot, unless they have on an Algernon P Razzamatazz hat full of explosives.

It does inspire confidence, I had no idea we had police trained to do that kind of thing. I would have imagined them bumbling in a Will Hay-like fashion.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 22 July 2005 10:02 (twenty years ago)

wow, they're actually serious about cracking down on fare evaders

(boom-tsh)

― Seuss, Friday, 22 July 2005 10:08 (twenty years ago)

is victoria line closed just between victoria and brixton

― charltonlido (gareth), Friday, 22 July 2005 10:20 (twenty years ago)

I wasn't accusing the police of incompetence. I was just hoping they had very good cause. If the "bomb" turn out to be someone's groceries the fallout in race relations terms could be horrendous. I have sympathy with the police, who may have to make snap decisions when they may have reasonable cause to think both their and bystander's lives may be at risk. But the security forces track record in this area is spotty at best - people shot for carrying water pistols, table legs that allegedly looked like guns etc. It's reasonable to be concerned.

― frankiemachine, Friday, 22 July 2005 10:21 (twenty years ago)

News 24 have just spectacularly cocked up w/r/t that andrew dude they've just interviewed

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 22 July 2005 10:28 (twenty years ago)

table legs that look like guns that people refuse to put down when asked in what is obviously a 'JDI' type situation... the police were wrong there, on balance, but they don't often shoot people *totally at random*.

tissp -- how?

― N_Rq, Friday, 22 July 2005 10:29 (twenty years ago)

They filmed him giving out his name and phone number to journalists--they realised half way through the number and killed the sound

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 22 July 2005 10:34 (twenty years ago)

At least it was only the sound they killed

(boom-tsh)

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 July 2005 10:36 (twenty years ago)

I can't believe this happened. I didn't find out about it until yesterday evening and was slightly puzzled by a message to the Clientele mailing list. This as unreal as The Secret Agent. It would be as funny as the book if it were not real. Now it's just puzzling and sad.

― youn, Friday, 22 July 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

what a strange day. security alerts *everywhere*. now one at canary wharf.

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 12:09 (twenty years ago)

now one at canary wharf

"there's a man in there. We think he might be an Editor. He's got his hands on a newspaper, and he's willing to use it!"

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Friday, 22 July 2005 12:11 (twenty years ago)

the word i'm getting is:

stockwell dude had no bomb on him, was shot getting on northern line
BUT he had dumped bomb on victoria line train, so the police weren't shooting a random.

harrow road in maida vale is on lockdown.

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

Kicking off at Harrow road now.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Friday, 22 July 2005 12:46 (twenty years ago)

what's the dealiyo-yo?

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

"666 new answers"!!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 22 July 2005 12:47 (twenty years ago)

Londoners should be very proud of a police force who are striving to protect you all.

― Lara (Lara), Friday, 22 July 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

Where are you getting your word, N-RQ? The street? Did you put a coin in a pretend blind man's cup?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 22 July 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

my girlfriend, i guess she must have the tv on.

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)

Oh, right.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 22 July 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

haha, just kidding -- i'm actually a high-ranking mi5 officer.

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

http://media.mth.net/jimmy_fr/v3/images/series/mi5/perso_105_105/tom.jpg

― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Friday, 22 July 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

you got the right idea there!

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

they've put out cctv pix of 'the four', one in brix in a 'new york' hoody, one in westbourne grove area...

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41333000/jpg/_41333025_suspect_four_203x152.jpg

― beanz (beanz), Friday, 22 July 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

after 9/11 i remember seeing 'the cable guy':

"Oh my God! Oh my God! My twin brother has been shot! I think it was an Asian gang or something... There was this guy, he looked Asian... and he was speaking another language, I'm pretty sure it was... Asian."

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 14:25 (twenty years ago)

Warren Street:
http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/5390/suspect18iq.jpg

Oval:
http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/7223/suspect20pu.jpg

Nubmer 26 bus:
http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/1387/suspect32bm.jpg

Westbourne Grove:
http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/5791/suspect41yw.jpg

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 22 July 2005 14:31 (twenty years ago)

is the stockwell guy one of the four?

― N_RQ, Friday, 22 July 2005 14:56 (twenty years ago)

Could someone put that first picture in the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald playing in a band, pls.

― Jimmy Mod Is Sick of Being The Best At Everything (ModJ), Friday, 22 July 2005 15:00 (twenty years ago)

http://members.cox.net/billz3bub/lhoswald.jpg

This one, I mean.

― Jimmy Mod Is Sick of Being The Best At Everything (ModJ), Friday, 22 July 2005 15:00 (twenty years ago)

Zero tolerance for fare dodgers? He did jump the barrier, after all.

― Alex M (Alex M), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:02 (twenty years ago)

Apparently Birmingham Moor Street and Birmingham Snow Hill stations have been evacuated, and a friend of mine has seen lots of police cars heading into the city. Theres nothing hit the news wires yet so i dont know if its anything to worry about.

― dmun drive-in (dmun), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:21 (twenty years ago)

PA SNAP PA
A man has been arrested at Snow Hill station in Birmingham under anti-terror legislation and two suitcases are being dealt with by explosives officers, British Transport Police said tonight.
end

― Alex M (Alex M), Friday, 22 July 2005 17:13 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4708373.stm

― M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 22 July 2005 17:55 (twenty years ago)

I thought I was safe from the madness here in Berlin, but a plane has just crashed into the Reichstag!

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 22 July 2005 19:33 (twenty years ago)

Quick! Move to Tokyo!

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Friday, 22 July 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

So far it seems that either Ned or Momus are responsible for all these terror attacks.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Friday, 22 July 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)

It's EDGWARE ROAD not Harrow Road...well, I suppose it's both.

― Adam In Real Life (nordicskilla), Friday, 22 July 2005 19:38 (twenty years ago)

So far it seems that either Ned or Momus are responsible for all these terror attacks.

Unlike Ned, though, I was in New York on 9/11.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 22 July 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

I know, as was Ed. So I guess he's implicated too.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Friday, 22 July 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

One of my local news affiliates, in addition to suddenly pronouncing it "terra," is making a big deal out of the fact that one of the London suspects was wearing a "New York" t-shirt. Apparently terrorists in western cities are supposed to wear shirts that say "Osama-Wear" or baby tees that say "bomber" in pink sparkly script.

― nabiscothingy, Friday, 22 July 2005 21:05 (twenty years ago)

PHATWA FARM

― teeny (teeny), Friday, 22 July 2005 21:18 (twenty years ago)

The Muslim Council of Britain said they were concerned about a possible police "shoot to kill" policy.

Am I the only one who feels that the Muslim Council of Great Britain shouldn't be getting into this? I mean, if the police are constantly issuing statements telling people that they are not targeting Muslims, shouldn't the official Muslim spokespeople get behind that and at least make a show of believing them?

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Saturday, 23 July 2005 08:12 (twenty years ago)

Also, 62 people killed in bombings in Egypt's Sharm-al-Sheikh resorts. If you want to kill Europeans in Egypt, this is the place to do it.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Saturday, 23 July 2005 08:13 (twenty years ago)

The Muslim Council of Britain are not the only body of people likely to be concerned about a possible 'shoot to kill' policy. This seems like irresponsible, unhelpful reporting.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Saturday, 23 July 2005 08:50 (twenty years ago)

baby tees that say "bomber" in pink sparkly script.

I bet you can already get these in either Topshop or New Look.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 23 July 2005 10:52 (twenty years ago)

has anyone any grasp of a point behind bombing (or pseudo-bombing) an empty no.26 bus!?

on the bus to the FAP last night - a 55 - the driver told anyone who wanted hackney road they would have to walk from the far end of it (it is long - a good 25 mins walk min), as he was being detoured via bethnal green road, and therefore cambridge heath was his last offical stop before old street --- so lots of ppl grumpliy got out

then when he detoured via bethnal green road, he in fact made lots of i guess "unofficial" stops!! (the people who got off could have walked much less far, HR and BGR are parallel to one another)

(so maybe the point is just annoying disruption) (i totally don't blame bus drivers for being testy and not helpful btw --- after they're on buses, ie potential targets, all day, when you and i get on and off much sooner and are mostly NOT on buses)

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 23 July 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

im worried about you guys, you know that right?
hugs?

― anthony easton (anthony), Saturday, 23 July 2005 11:53 (twenty years ago)

has anyone any grasp of a point behind bombing (or pseudo-bombing) an empty no.26 bus!?

i'm not sure if they've said where the bomber got on. at waterloo? the whole thing fucked up anyway, but i don't think it was meant to be a pseudo-bombing: his backpack had plenty of bomb in it; it's just that the detonator failed to set it off. maybe he spent the journey from waterloo trying to detonate it and gave it up as a bad job once the bus had emptied around hackney.

but um we're not being told *shit*, really, so that's half-hearted speculation.

― Enrique, naked in an unfamiliar future where corporations run the world... (Enri, Saturday, 23 July 2005 12:38 (twenty years ago)

Has anyone confirmed that the guy they shot was trying to carry out a bombing?

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Saturday, 23 July 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

Do we know if the four attempts were simultaneous? It might have been a case of 'do it [X time], wherever you are'.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 23 July 2005 12:44 (twenty years ago)

jarlr'mai: no, they have not confirmed the stockwell man had a bomb. the now-silenced story is there was a bomb alert (smoke, etc) on the victoria line around the stockwell area. if this was connected i don't know. the dead man had a big coat, is about all the concrete justification we have.

martin: the tube explosions were roughly simultaneous about 12.30pm -- the bus explosion was reported an hour later.

re: why in hackney -- also, why at lunch? not exactly the busiest time.

― Enrique, naked in an unfamiliar future where corporations run the world... (Enri, Saturday, 23 July 2005 12:53 (twenty years ago)

Hm, the bus explosion was about an hour later on 7/7 too - maybe this was to mirror that? Maybe they expected that the three tube bombs would have driven everyone onto buses by then, like last time?

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 23 July 2005 13:05 (twenty years ago)

as i say, 'they' are not being too forthcoming about this. i think it's only 'luck' that prevented this being another real attack, and the implications of that are too grave for the authorities to admit? i'm reaching.

― Enrique, naked in an unfamiliar future where corporations run the world... (Enri, Saturday, 23 July 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

Nah, I think the authorities are deliberately careful about giving away too much information to the public in any major investigation. That way, if they bring someone in for questioning and they apparently start confessing, it's easier to tell if they start making stuff up.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 23 July 2005 13:23 (twenty years ago)

the now-silenced story is there was a bomb alert (smoke, etc) on the victoria line around the stockwell area.

Yeah, this has really confused me. The 'have your say' on the BBC website has loads of people talking about this, but the news has not said anything happened there. Was it just hysteria on the train?

― marianna, Saturday, 23 July 2005 13:58 (twenty years ago)

they have not confirmed the stockwell man had a bomb

This thread, which at some points was running ahead of news media, is now way behind. The major story on BBC and Guardian sites is now that the man killed in Stockwell had no connection to the bombings. It was a "tragic mistake".

― Momus (Momus), Saturday, 23 July 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

Which is all very terrible in itself: but in that case, why did he run?

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 23 July 2005 15:38 (twenty years ago)

One has the right to act in all sorts of ways, crazy and sane, in a city which is not at war, without getting shot five times. But it's no longer possible to call London "a city which is not at war".

― Momus (Momus), Saturday, 23 July 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)

uh-oh

he panicked

― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 23 July 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)

Being at war is not a binary distinction.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 23 July 2005 15:42 (twenty years ago)

whether it is or isn't

― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 23 July 2005 15:44 (twenty years ago)

My point was that you can't say that London is "a city at war" either.

(my second point was that Momus is engaging in political exaggeration. But that's not that unusual, I guess)

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 23 July 2005 15:48 (twenty years ago)

A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was unconnected to the incidents, police have confirmed.

A Scotland Yard statement said the shooting was a "tragedy" which was regretted by the Metropolitan Police.

The man was shot dead after police followed him from a south London flat to Stockwell Tube station on Friday.

Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus.

The statement read: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.


"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."

The statement confirmed the man was followed by police from a block of flats that was under surveillance.

His death is being investigated by officers from the MPS Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Saturday, 23 July 2005 15:51 (twenty years ago)

The Guardian leader "Two More Days of Terror" (presumably written before the news that the man shot had nothing to do with the bombs) says:

"Both London's mayor, Ken Livingstone, who thought a shoot-to-kill policy could have been necessary, and the local MP, Kate Hoey, defended the police shooting. She rightly warned against a rush to judgment when the police were dealing with suspect suicide bombers."

Some ambiguity there. Was she warning the police against a "rush to judgement" or people commenting on the actions of the police? One difference is that the police have their fingers on triggers, whereas people commenting are shooting mouths, not guns.

― Momus (Momus), Saturday, 23 July 2005 16:17 (twenty years ago)

I don't think there's much ambiguity in the context of the previous sentence.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 23 July 2005 16:19 (twenty years ago)

Well, let's call it "irony" then.

― Momus (Momus), Saturday, 23 July 2005 16:20 (twenty years ago)

jesus fuck. this still doesn't make any sense (why were they following this guy if they had no positive id?).

― Enrique, naked in an unfamiliar future where corporations run the world... (Enri, Saturday, 23 July 2005 16:25 (twenty years ago)

Since USUK effectively globalized the war-on-terror, ie not a war on a particular nation state, everywhere has the potential to be in the frontline. Currently it is London and BlairBush helped to create the conditions to make it happen. The conditions on the streets of London are effectively the same as those on the streets of Bahgdad, shooting to kill suspected suicide bombers. But of course the Iraqis have it a lot worse because of the nature of the original invading force.

― anon observer, Saturday, 23 July 2005 16:54 (twenty years ago)

I guess he ran because the officers were in plain clothes and he perceieved a viglante group.

After hearing this news I feel more sick than I did on 7/7. Much more.

― oni0n_kid, Saturday, 23 July 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)

i hope this guy's family sue the hell out of the police. bling bling!

― Ludo (Ludo), Saturday, 23 July 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

this still doesn't make any sense (why were they following this guy if they had no positive id?).

Because when you have a fucking hammer, all you see is fucking nails. Obviously this is a complete tragedy, but if anything ought to bring a debate on whether the police should be able to shoot to kill to the front of the national consciousness, this is it.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Saturday, 23 July 2005 17:34 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/today/img/1.jpg?Saturday,%2023-Jul-2005%2001:11:28%20BST

― Alba (Alba), Saturday, 23 July 2005 18:20 (twenty years ago)

ohhh, it's a good paper

― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 23 July 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

I forget which one today read "One down, Three to go".

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Saturday, 23 July 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)

The Sun, I believe. That bastion of the facts. Any retractions will, of course, be buriedon page 39 under Andy Capp.

― Vic Fluro, Saturday, 23 July 2005 18:48 (twenty years ago)

Yes, the Sun. Although Andy Capp is in the Mirror, isn't he? You probably should have said Hagar The Horrible.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 23 July 2005 18:49 (twenty years ago)

It was The Sun, but if you look at the accompanying photo, it was really referring to the arrest of the suspected bus bomber, though there's certainly some ambiguity.

http://images.thesun.co.uk/picture/0,,2005331384,00.jpg

― Alba (Alba), Saturday, 23 July 2005 18:50 (twenty years ago)

I'm only sticking up for The Sun because I'd rather a free pizza than a free DVD of The Millionaress.

― Alba (Alba), Saturday, 23 July 2005 18:52 (twenty years ago)

and coke too!

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 23 July 2005 18:54 (twenty years ago)

9½" pizza

― RJG (RJG), Saturday, 23 July 2005 18:58 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps the Express and Sun may choose to run this headline:

'Man Shot for Maliciously being a bit Asian looking in a public place'

― Ed (dali), Saturday, 23 July 2005 19:18 (twenty years ago)

i don't think The Sun would use words like 'maliciously'

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 23 July 2005 19:20 (twenty years ago)

From the BBC site

A man killed by police in south London was unconnected to Thursday's attacks and is thought to be Brazilian.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Saturday, 23 July 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)

wow what a fuckup

― ?ÎÓDDDJHKHVBNM (eman), Saturday, 23 July 2005 21:01 (twenty years ago)

Maybe the second edition can have the following headline:

'Man Shot for Maliciously being tanned in a public place'

― Ed (dali), Saturday, 23 July 2005 21:07 (twenty years ago)

Wait, what's going on with that cover photo? Have they blacked the faces in? (Also interestingly enough one of the Tube bombers looks more Somali than Asian.)

― nabiscothingy, Saturday, 23 July 2005 21:44 (twenty years ago)

Man Murdered For Multitudinous Melanin.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Saturday, 23 July 2005 21:53 (twenty years ago)

the sellers pic is either extremely otm or extremely unfortunate

http://www.express.co.uk/pixfeed/express.gif

― gear (gear), Sunday, 24 July 2005 00:01 (twenty years ago)

They should blow up the "Fool Britannia" line and put it where "Sunday Express" currently is.

― Momus (Momus), Sunday, 24 July 2005 00:05 (twenty years ago)

(Also, they should take that image of a crusader they use for their logo and run it as the picture for all their terrorism and immigration stories.)

― Momus (Momus), Sunday, 24 July 2005 00:07 (twenty years ago)

(Also interestingly enough one of the Tube bombers looks more Somali than Asian.)

Funny you should say that.

My uncle who is a retired immigration officer(passport control etc) who said immediately that the guy was a somali when his pic was shown on the news.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Sunday, 24 July 2005 00:14 (twenty years ago)

'Man Shot for Maliciously being tanned in a public place'

I don't think it's a race thing. The guy was no darker skinned than you or I, Ed. The police had been following him since he left a house they had under surveillance.

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 24 July 2005 00:28 (twenty years ago)

Scotland Yard was facing a severe crisis last night after it admitted that the man shot dead at Stockwell Tube station on Friday morning had no links to terrorist attacks on the capital.

The victim, a Brazilian, was shot five times in the head as he ran on to an Underground train pursued by armed officers, including members of SO19, Scotland Yard's specialist firearms unit.

The Metropolitan police named him as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, an electrician from Minas Gerais who was living in Scotia Road, Stockwell, with three cousins. He is an innocent victim of a new "shoot to kill" policy under which officers have been told to shoot at the head if they believe they are confronting a suicide bomber.

― gear (gear), Sunday, 24 July 2005 00:31 (twenty years ago)

Mm and in the current climate in London, if I was being followed by a group of men with guns I'd possibly panic and run too. Did he even know they were cops? This is fucking travesty.

― Trayce (trayce), Sunday, 24 July 2005 00:35 (twenty years ago)

(meanwhile the actual terrorist groups are sitting back and saying "look at the westerner fools panicking and turning on each other. Our work here is done". Feh)

― Trayce (trayce), Sunday, 24 July 2005 00:36 (twenty years ago)

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/22/opinion/edroy.php

― anthony easton (anthony), Sunday, 24 July 2005 03:12 (twenty years ago)

I read that article. He makes some useful points -- the comparison to 60s-70s European "revolutionaries" is interesting -- but he doesn't take it all far enough. He sets out to debunk the idea that terrorism is caused by military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq, which is a stupid thing to debunk. (And it makes the debunker sound stupid too, as in his no-shit-sherlock observation that Sept. 11th happened before we invaded Iraq, omg, he's right!)

Because the "ideology of terror" isn't just about caliphate fever dreams and young true believers. All political, religious and military movements feed off of young true believers, they're a dime a dozen. The question is always, what set of circumstances and resources have arisen in a given situation to convert the potential true believers into a kinetic menace? And that's the question we keep floundering at, partly because every time you try to get at it some flag-waving jackass jumps in front of you and starts gibbering about how "They want to kill us!" The bombing in Egypt kind of puts the whole thing in stark relief -- the Islamic Brotherhood and its sympathizers are in a mutually beneficial antagonistic relationship with the authoritarian govt., the threat of each serving to fuel the excesses of the other. Which is how it always goes in these situations, but the "Arab world" is rats-overrun with it, this decades-old fight between Islamists and authoritarian secular nationalists, and our best hope is to start to try to pull apart that mutual chokehold to give those societies a little room to breathe. The Bush administration has started to get its rhetoric in order along those lines, but its actions are lagging way behind and often directly contradicting its words.

I remember 20 years ago or so hearing about how "The Muppet Show" was banned in Saudi Arabia because Miss Piggy was too risque. The Western media had a good little time giggling at that, those silly Arabs. We maybe should have been paying more attention.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 24 July 2005 06:57 (twenty years ago)

Which is all very terrible in itself: but in that case, why did he run?

-- Forest Pines (forestpine...), July 23rd, 2005 4:38 PM. (ForestPines) (late)

there are so many reasons though, maybe he had drugs on him? or didn't have a ticket? or whatever, he could have had some minor guilt inside him and started running, without thinking he'd get fucking shot to death being a likely result.

the fact that the police are acting in panic mode scares me more than the bombs. if they're not careful they'd end up raging the terror on behalf of the actual terrorists. (e.g. you could argue they've already raised the death toll by one without any bombers/whatever doing anything)

― ken c (ken c), Sunday, 24 July 2005 08:56 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/today/img/1.jpg?Saturday,%2023-Jul-2005%2001:11:28%20BSThttp://www.express.co.uk/pixfeed/express.gif

so, erm, is the "demand" still "growing"?

― ken c (ken c), Sunday, 24 July 2005 08:57 (twenty years ago)

Yes, tomorrow they're going to give us What's New Pussycat?

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 24 July 2005 09:02 (twenty years ago)

there are so many reasons though, maybe he had drugs on him? or didn't have a ticket? or whatever, he could have had some minor guilt inside him and started running, without thinking he'd get fucking shot to death being a likely result.

The police were in plain clothes so he may have thought he was running from gun toting thugs.

― Ed (dali), Sunday, 24 July 2005 09:10 (twenty years ago)

Hell yeah. I dont blame him to be honest. THo to give the cops some credit they *have* to have shouted "police! stop!" or somethign surely?

― Trayce (trayce), Sunday, 24 July 2005 09:11 (twenty years ago)

stop or i'll shoot would be a good one i think

― ken c (ken c), Sunday, 24 July 2005 09:15 (twenty years ago)

― Momus (Momus), Sunday, 24 July 2005 09:23 (twenty years ago)

Heh. Momus makes a good wry point there.

― Trayce (trayce), Sunday, 24 July 2005 09:26 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, his typesetting needs work though.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Sunday, 24 July 2005 10:40 (twenty years ago)

I remember 20 years ago or so hearing about how "The Muppet Show" was banned in Saudi Arabia because Miss Piggy was too risque. The Western media had a good little time giggling at that, those silly Arabs. We maybe should have been paying more attention.

'...'

really, what should the tv company have done here? make miss piggy cover up?

haha momus, yes, british people are psychos!!

― Enrique, naked in an unfamiliar future where corporations run the world... (Enri, Sunday, 24 July 2005 10:47 (twenty years ago)

momus clarion, every day, all editions:
ORDINARY PEOPLE AMUSINGLY MORE STUPID THAN NON-POP ARTISTS

(i know it's tempting to interpret EVERYTHING he says in the light of the above, NRQ, given the history of his provocations here and elsewhere, but to be fair his private eye-isms above only have the implication you find in them if the mometown rat himself also believes that the express speaks for all britons, which i bet he doesn't)

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 24 July 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

can anyone remember three weeks ago?

― Enrique, naked in an unfamiliar future where corporations run the world... (Enri, Sunday, 24 July 2005 12:15 (twenty years ago)

Live8!

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 24 July 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

(haha is this where you son me w.a momus declaration that the express DOES speak to the essential heart and soul of the british?)

( i barely remember three days ago: it is a symptom of life on-line i think)

― mark s (mark s), Sunday, 24 July 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

what is 'son'? is this new? 'sonned'?

(i don't think momus would dissent from that analysis. yesterday's espress said, there is a 'general demand' for bombers to be shot, and momus was extrapolating from that, is my reading -- of course, i'm in a total state of balmy non-paranoia this weekend so everything i write is intrinsically rational)

― Enrique, naked in an unfamiliar future where corporations run the world... (Enri, Sunday, 24 July 2005 12:44 (twenty years ago)

"The Express Group of newspapers does not speak for Britain," Lord Haw Haw Momus clarified from his Berlin hideaway today, adding, quietly, "...yet".

― Momus (Momus), Sunday, 24 July 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

Just got evacuated from Highbury and Islington. Nothing too serious, I think.

People seriously do start sprinting out when the guy on the platform tells you to leave. I was all like "There's fuck all going on down here, if I run out I'm more likely to be running into trouble than away from it."

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Sunday, 24 July 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

tough call, really, one i haven't had to make ('yet'). panic does not usually help, though.

― Enrique, naked in an unfamiliar future where corporations run the world... (Enri, Sunday, 24 July 2005 15:00 (twenty years ago)

really, what should the tv company have done here? make miss piggy cover up?

Nooooo....I don't think the tv company should have done anything. I think maybe our liberal democratic societies might have been a little more circumspect about pumping money and guns into a region dominated by governments that found Miss Piggy too much to take. I think there were some blithe assumptions made that these places would all sort somehow "modernize" at some point, without any real thought about how that might happen.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 24 July 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

I think it's a bit of a stretch to link prudish attitudes to Miss Piggy with terrorism.

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 24 July 2005 18:45 (twenty years ago)

I think it's a bit of a stretch to link prudish attitudes to Miss Piggy with terrorism.

i don't think anyone's doing that. it's just about the enormous gulf between two societies; something the west has never really taken very seriously at all. it's a kind of passive imperialism, isn't it? "oh, look at these backwards arabs. never mind, one day they'll be like us and they'll be able to laugh at miss piggy too."

you can see it in bush and blair's faces: they genuinely cannot comprehend that other cultures might not see western capitalism as the pinnacle of all achievement. and that lies somewhere near the root of all our problems right now.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Sunday, 24 July 2005 18:51 (twenty years ago)

western capitalism, or western liberalism/secularism? it seems to me that much of the anger is directed at the latter, rather than the former.

― The Lex (The Lex), Sunday, 24 July 2005 18:55 (twenty years ago)

The Muppet Show really is the best thing ever made though. People of all cultures and religions should be able to respect that and enjoy it.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Sunday, 24 July 2005 19:10 (twenty years ago)

western capitalism, or western liberalism/secularism?

I'm not sure actual terrorism has much to do with either of these on their own - it's only the infiltration and interference of these on what is perceived as THEIR turf and subsequent effects that seems to have prompted this sort of extreme reaction. It's possible there would be sustained co-existence if 'The West' didn't 'meddle' in what is perceived as 'their business' i.e. looking the other way while atrocities continue and the Western definition of freedom is suppressed elsewhere. I firmly doubt the recent attacks would've been an inevitability whether 'the West' had done what it had over the years or hadn't - it's merely speculation either way though, but it annoys me when the war advocates criticise this view, as if their speculation could be any 'truer'.

Not that I necessarily think looking the other way was the 'right' thing to do, though I see no evidence that the choice of action taken has been, is or will ever be truly better, and certainly not when the fatalities are so much closer to home (geography matters I'm afraid).

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Sunday, 24 July 2005 19:20 (twenty years ago)

Well, there's no way we can't "meddle," any more than OPEC can afford to not meddle in the global economy. We're all linked in so many different ways that disengagement is impossible even if it was desirable (which I don't think it is). I think people who think human rights and liberal democratic values are important should advocate for them everywhere. It's just that there are better and worse ways to do it, and invading countries on balance isn't one of the better ones. (I still don't think we had much choice in Afghanistan, but we didn't have enough of a plan for what to do afterward -- because, of course, we were in such a huge hurry to march on Baghdad.)

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 24 July 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

(and of course it was our support for the mujahedeen vs. the Soviets and our almost total disengagement from Afghanistan after the Russians left that helped set the stage for the Taliban)

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 24 July 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)

http://www.bitpuddle.com/images/2004/08/experience2.jpg

hmmm!

― Tumililingan (ex machina), Sunday, 24 July 2005 19:52 (twenty years ago)

The news images, above, have all updated to current issues, as they will have on the excelsior thread. Check back every day for new spins and subtexts on the jokes around them.

― nabiscothingy, Monday, 25 July 2005 04:52 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps the Brazillian government is so upset because the Met failed to shoot any homeless kids while they were down in the Tube.

― Alex M (Alex M), Monday, 25 July 2005 06:42 (twenty years ago)

Does "Bangers and Mash" come from that film?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 25 July 2005 06:44 (twenty years ago)

"The Miilionairess", I mean. Thinking about it, the answer is probably no.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 25 July 2005 07:03 (twenty years ago)

The news images, above, have all updated to current issues, as they will have on the excelsior thread.

Aw. Could make for an interestingly baffling excelsior in a little while.

― Trayce (trayce), Monday, 25 July 2005 07:13 (twenty years ago)

Annoyingly the Beeb report that UK Muslims feel under suspicion...

but was Jean Charles de Menezes a Muslim? It seems unlikely given his Brazilian origin.

I suppose there may be a general feeling among a lot of people who share a particular range of skin tone. This issue is worsened somewhat by witnesses of the shooting describing the victim as 'Asian'.

As an aside, news reports now claim the victim had an out-of-date Visa!

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 25 July 2005 10:07 (twenty years ago)

that'd teach him

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 July 2005 10:12 (twenty years ago)

The impression from the news reports I read was that the skin-tone would have been third place to him being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the fact that he was wearing a bulky jacket in July. Yes, I know, real actual fashion police, fantastic.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 25 July 2005 10:13 (twenty years ago)

If only he'd had an ID card.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Monday, 25 July 2005 10:14 (twenty years ago)

I'm sure that is true, which is why news reports of 'UK Muslims' feeling more under threat/suspicion since the shooting seem quite daft.

xpost

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 25 July 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

also.. re: the skin tone range of fear.. the brazilian guy who got shot, from that picture on the bbc link at least, looked kind of white!

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 July 2005 10:18 (twenty years ago)

what's bugged me is: ok, they had the block of flats under surveillance. they followed this one guy. how many police were on the stakeout, and why *this* guy? they hadn't identified him. presumably many people left the flats, and they can't *all* have been followed.

and then they followed him for ages before pulling him over -- he went on a bus, and they followed him on to it. he could have blown the bus up.

there's still a lot that won't make sense for a long time.

― N_RQ, Monday, 25 July 2005 10:23 (twenty years ago)

why intrigues me is why they left it to the point of getting to a tube train before stopping him.. maybe there would have been more options available for restraint etc?

it's hard to draw too many conclusions with as little details as this.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 July 2005 10:39 (twenty years ago)

Yes, I know, real actual fashion police

i must admit, i raised a weak smile at this. which immediately made me feel guilty.

the most chilling thing about this are the reports that the police didn't identify themselves at all. to begin with i worried that they might have shouted "police" but not identified themselves as armed; now there are suggestions they didn't even say "police".

this has to be bollocks, surely. these guys are trained professionals. there is no fucking way they wouldn't have identified themselves.

is there?

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Monday, 25 July 2005 10:56 (twenty years ago)

er, i heard they put on hats with 'police' written on them. need to check facts, but this is a real fog of war situation. not much fact is getting out.

― N_RQ, Monday, 25 July 2005 10:57 (twenty years ago)

they may have just been sting fans

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 July 2005 11:06 (twenty years ago)

I thought they were legally required to say, "Police".

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 25 July 2005 11:07 (twenty years ago)

They aren't.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 25 July 2005 11:43 (twenty years ago)

Well, someone took the Basque police to the European Court of Human Right, or threatened to, because when they say, "Police!", it sounds nothing like "Police!" and non-Basque speakers may get unnecessarily walloped.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 25 July 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

Well, it's not in the police code apparently, though it is standard practice all the same. Whether that could be challenged by Strasbourg I don't know.

why intrigues me is why they left it to the point of getting to a tube train before stopping him.. maybe there would have been more options available for restraint etc?

They were following him, you loon. Then he went into the tube station and they decided it was unsafe to let him carry on.

Someone texted into 5Live with an unusually good point this morning:

If the policy is to stop a suspected suicide bomber the only safe way, by shooting them in the head, for fear any other course of action will allow them time to detonate themselves, then the logical conclusion of that is that it's also unsafe trying to shout "stop or I'll shoot" or whatever (at least if they're in a crowded area) – that also gives them the chance they need. So we're left with a real shoot-to-kill policy, rather than something that police chiefs are currently trying to describe as a "shoot-to-stop" policy that has the unfortunate but inevitable side-effect of killing people.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 25 July 2005 11:56 (twenty years ago)

if they *didn't* say 'police' or 'stop or i'll shoot', though, what did they say to make him run? it's amazing how little they're letting out, really, because it's making everybody paranoid.

from this pov, it would have made more sense to confront him outside, cos the bomb would have been less effective in the open if he had gone that route.

― N_RQ, Monday, 25 July 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

It might not have been Strasbourg, I was just saying that to sound clever(er), but it was definitely an issue.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 25 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, it must have been highly probable he was going to enter the station a minute or so before he actually did, so it would have made sense to stop him then, but I guess in the heat of the moment the decisiveness to do this must have been lacking.

x-post

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 25 July 2005 12:07 (twenty years ago)

it would have made more sense to confront him outside

exactly. the radio-texter's point is a very good one, but this is surely the only solution: try to challenge suspected bombers when they're out in the open, surrounded by as few people as possible.

it's amazing how little they're letting out, really, because it's making everybody paranoid.

exactly.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Monday, 25 July 2005 12:10 (twenty years ago)

Newsflash: armed police raiding a property in north London in connection with the bombings

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Monday, 25 July 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

From the off, this second wave of bombings, or rather the reaction to it, has made me think that Blair is a bit too cosy with Putin. The behaviour is very similar, I think (in my ignorance).

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 25 July 2005 12:15 (twenty years ago)

i said this somewhere else i think, but i see the model for london in the near future to follow the russian example:

police hanging out stop'n'searching anyone of "asian" appearance randomly. maybe if there isnt another attempt imminently then it wont come to pass, but such a policy of basically putting all asian people under suspicion will be the nearest they can find to searching bags on the tube/all people (as was suggested immediately after the second attempts). it is a tactic that looks like it is pretty efficient to those who really want all "potential suicide bombers" to be shot, or nearest equivalent, and yet just about passes the "non-police state" test.

In russia anyone of a vaguely caucausian (chechen, georgian, dagestani, central asian generally) apperance, is checked by police who patrol ever metro station and major sites in cities. this is generalluy because they often dont have the right citizen papers so are bountiful for bribe taking, but in theory its for security.
of course, the multitude of bombings in metro stations and underpasses reveal just how effective this tactic is in keeping the city secure.

my friend (who was a scouser) for example got stopped 5 times on one journey of 30 mins duration.

― ambrose (ambrose), Monday, 25 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

was he wearing summer clothes in the middle of russian winter?

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:02 (twenty years ago)

it was actually pretty nippy on friday morning. i wore a coat.

― N_RQ, Monday, 25 July 2005 13:04 (twenty years ago)

also maybe i watch too much science fiction but are there not ways yet to incapacitate a person without knocking bullets in their heads? like some stun gun or something?

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

taser? perhaps not in this case, where they needed the target not to be able to move a finger, but in general, you would have thought so.

― N_RQ, Monday, 25 July 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

Err, couldn't an electrical impulse from a stun gun have triggered a device?

― NickB (NickB), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

apparently they've raided somewhere 'north of muswell hill'.

Err, couldn't an electrical impulse from a stun gun have triggered a device?

depends on the device -- same goes for shooting, i think. i don't think *all* explosives go off if you shoot them.

― N_RQ, Monday, 25 July 2005 13:23 (twenty years ago)

And then you've got bomb dogs to worry about.

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

apparently they've raided somewhere 'north of muswell hill'.

This is probably Londoner-speak for "Leicester".

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:39 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps a Brazilian in late July would have had an impressive sun tan.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:40 (twenty years ago)

I'm waiting for the Met to announce a new policy of surveillance of tanning salons, because they've seen a suspiciously large number of dark-skinned people coming out.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

All Islam channel staff are being advised to to carry bags on the tube when coming to work.

― Ed (dali), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

the flat they raided is in 'new southgate'. i've never heard of it. it's near friern barnet, which i know only as a bus destination. kind of wood green area.

― N_RQ, Monday, 25 July 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

I saw some big armoured police vehicles (US box backed pickups) screaming through stamfor hill yesterday.

― Ed (dali), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:57 (twenty years ago)

As opposed to rucksacks, you mean?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 25 July 2005 13:58 (twenty years ago)

there's a Homebase in New Southgate.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

I was in New Southgate on Friday visiting friends. It's not any nearer to Wood Green than Crouch End or Hornsey is. It's the name of the overland train station for the area including Friern Barnet - which you would know if you ever took the overland train out of Moorgate station like I do sometimes.

― marianna, Monday, 25 July 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, I meant 'advised NOT to carry bags'

― Ed (dali), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

haha, i wz gonna say, like 'TAKE the fkn bags, know your rights'. that would actually make more sense.

i like OTMBOT's post where he said we shd all ask people what's in their bags -- i'd reverse it: we should show the person next to us what's in out bag. it should be considred rude not to.

― N_RQ, Monday, 25 July 2005 14:11 (twenty years ago)

haha, yeah, that is better

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:26 (twenty years ago)

It'd be good if people would all flash each other before boarding a train too, just to show that no weapons are consealed inside the clothes.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:28 (twenty years ago)

i've been doing this for years.

― N_RQ, Monday, 25 July 2005 14:29 (twenty years ago)

Ah, so that ISN'T a gun in your pocket...

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:32 (twenty years ago)

>> Err, couldn't an electrical impulse from a stun gun have triggered a device?
> depends on the device -- same goes for shooting, i think.

isn't this part of why they are shooting at people's heads rather than their bodies?

― koogs (koogs), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:33 (twenty years ago)

a guy, on telly, said that a shot in the body would be v. v. unlikely to trigger a device because it'd have to hit, like, the detonator or something and that that was v. v. unlikely

― RJG (RJG), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:37 (twenty years ago)

I wonder if the policeman that shot him is on suicide watch.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:39 (twenty years ago)

I probably mean under.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:40 (twenty years ago)

a guy, on telly, said that a shot in the body would be v. v. unlikely to trigger a device because it'd have to hit, like, the detonator or something and that that was v. v. unlikely

You told me that RJG, and then I heard some police guy on the radio contradict it. Who here knows about explosives?

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:41 (twenty years ago)

yup, what RJG said sounds right. as i say, *some* explosives *might* explode if shot, but most do not. they probably are not carrying sticks of TNT.

but the real reason to shoot the head is to destroy the brain so the bomber (or electrician) cannot use his hands to detonate the bomb. a body shot has less immediate impact.

― N_RQ, Monday, 25 July 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

I need to start carrying a backpack full os sex toys.

― Jimmy Mod Is Sick of Being The Best At Everything (ModJ), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:44 (twenty years ago)

And pornography.

― Jimmy Mod Is Sick of Being The Best At Everything (ModJ), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:44 (twenty years ago)

they really ought to look next time to see if the guy had anything in his hands.. if not maybe they could have just cuffed him?

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:46 (twenty years ago)

"IT" WAS UNDER HIS JACKET.

SPANKED UP MADMEN

HAVE YOU LEARNED NOTHING?

― Alba (Alba), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:47 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, I meant 'advised NOT to carry bags'

Tsk, Ed, "careless talk costs lives" in wartime.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:53 (twenty years ago)

but without his hands he'd need to have perfected some kind of muscle spasm skill to trigger the bombs inside his jacket! was he some kind of belly dancer now?

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 25 July 2005 14:55 (twenty years ago)

Reading the Guardian and Mirror on Saturday, the witnesses were all sure the person shot was 'asian', when in fact, they meant 'looks nothing like an asian man'. Funny that.

― Dave B (daveb), Monday, 25 July 2005 23:18 (twenty years ago)

Imaginative headline writers here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/today/img/1.jpg?Tuesday,%2026-Jul-2005%2000:49:28%20BST

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/today/img/8.jpg?Tuesday,%2026-Jul-2005%2000:49:30%20BST

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 00:00 (twenty years ago)

Passing up an opportunity for alliteration makes the Baby Jesus cry.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 05:58 (twenty years ago)

yup, what RJG said sounds right. as i say, *some* explosives *might* explode if shot, but most do not. they probably are not carrying sticks of TNT.

Re: Acetone Peroxide from Wikipedia

"commonly used by amateur chemists and explosive makers, often for detonators, and is sometimes found in improvised explosive devices. It takes the form of a white crystalline powder with a distinctive acrid smell.

It is highly heat, friction, and shock sensitive. Professional chemists have been injured attempting to use it. Once manufactured the material can degrade during storage, becoming less likely to explode."

This was the stuff that was used on July 7, I think. I'm assuming that a gunshot could provide the requisite shock to set it off.

― NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:14 (twenty years ago)

aha.

blimey they were on *benefits*? dyou think they were into kiddie porn and all?

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:25 (twenty years ago)

I also hear they are single mums with careers.

― beanz (beanz), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:27 (twenty years ago)

What exactly is the logic here? The bombers were on benefits, therefore everyone on benefits could be a bomber thus we should stop benefits?

Yeah I know tabloids and logic etc etc but still.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:33 (twenty years ago)

Why are people so surprised at the outrage this provokes. I don't think it's a "bombers were on benefits, therefore we should outlaw benefits" situation. It's more the hypocrisy of the situation - benefiting from the good parts of the very state they are doing their best to destroy. Decrying Satan while suckling at a witch's teat, that sort of thing.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll be told off for that opinion.

― It Is What A Man Does Which Demeans Him, Not What Is Done To Him (kate), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:37 (twenty years ago)

I think it's more like "we've just given you a big wodge of cash, so you should be a bit more grateful and stop trying to blow us up".

x-post

― NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:37 (twenty years ago)

...which is the sort of thing you'd expect yer dad to say to you, minus the up-blowing part (or not). And it sort of reduces a complex relationship to an economic bond, but "that's tabloids" I guess.

― NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:40 (twenty years ago)

i agree with kate, actually; it's more the humor of the sun using their most damning evidence. not only are they terrorists, they are also benefit cheats!!

the sun is kind of tarring all people on benefits with the 'homicidal maniac' brush.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:44 (twenty years ago)

Or tarring all homicidal maniac with the 'on benefits' brush.

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:51 (twenty years ago)

(add an 's' to 'maniac')

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:51 (twenty years ago)

Could pointing such things out be the very definition of 'swingeing'?

In the more biased British newspapers, it's sort of de rigeur to scrutinise the belongings of miscreants in a snidey way: a criminal or other somehow declassé person's home is always described in terms of how much it is worth (£400,000 cottage in leafy suburb), and like this case where a suspect has received £23,000 over six years, if they have received government assistance and how much. It really doesn't matter if you are a suspected bomber or the tabs' Slut Of The Week.

Reading the fine print of the benefits sums, you see that the suspect was paid these benefits for six years therefore the total for each year was a more humble £3833 or just short of £74 a week. It's not clear whether the original figure is a total of income support/JSA and housing and council tax benefits but it's below-poverty-line chump change whatever - consider there's NO WAY the journalist writing the diss is on anything less than £600 a week, for perspective's sake.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 07:55 (twenty years ago)

oh sure -- it's just the insane pointlessness of saying they were on benefits.

i mean it DOES actually tell you something about the bombers: getting benefits is an invasive procedure which involves the state scrutinising your life; they were in contact with state agencies over a long period; they were not funded by saudi millionaires, etc.

but the sun isn't making those points, i doubt.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:00 (twenty years ago)

It is a detail; it makes the story more vivid. This is one of the purposes of journalism, for better or for worse.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:11 (twenty years ago)

example: i was on housing benefit. i got a letter saying, to renew this, we will need to make a home visit 'at some point between 9.30 and 4pm'. so, y'know, keeping piles of paint-stripper is just that little bit harder.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:13 (twenty years ago)

It does add insult to injury, though. It's (a bit) like paying someone to come round and fix your boiler only for them to steal your TV.

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:15 (twenty years ago)

That'll learn you to live in the 'stow.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:20 (twenty years ago)

My favourite revelation about the bombers

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:25 (twenty years ago)

"You don't expect to hear that people who have been rafting are linked to this."

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:28 (twenty years ago)

Yes, it's usually associated with go-karting.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:30 (twenty years ago)

omg haha how DARE they have leisure time

― Ste (Fuzzy), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:32 (twenty years ago)

it is interesting, though. kind of team-building exercise.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:34 (twenty years ago)

One of them made a V sign while he was paddling away. We shall never know whether it meant victory or peace, according to ITN.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:37 (twenty years ago)

maybe the Sun et al should donate £23k from the extra paper sale they got from the bombers, back to the state.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:41 (twenty years ago)

Could pointing such things out be the very definition of 'swingeing'?

no. [boggles at some of the skewed thought processes on display here.] like others (kate being particularly OTM) have said: it's a detail. it's an irony. it's a story, for fuck's sake! it's got absolutely nothing to do with the sun's editorial stance on benefits/"scroungers"/etc.

there's NO WAY the journalist writing the diss is on anything less than £600 a week

really? i think you're living in the past there: tabloid wages ain't half what they used to be.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:43 (twenty years ago)

aye, it's not really swingeing to think terrorists ought not be given state benefits!!! they are entitled to a smack in the chops, at best.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:45 (twenty years ago)

The tabloids are making the point that the benefits system is being abused by people like this, people who despise this way of life. This seems quite obvious to me.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:47 (twenty years ago)

it's got absolutely nothing to do with the sun's editorial stance on benefits/"scroungers"/etc.

Come on Simon - it uses 'sponged' in the sub heading.

I basically agree that it's nothing like "Benefits scroungers are like terrorists" but it is a kind of "They're taking advantage of us, we're a soft touch, we're being mocked" thing, which is the key attitude lying behind much of the right-wing media's daily output.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:51 (twenty years ago)

Steve, how were they abusing the benefit system? (asking cos I don't know, rather than trying to start sumfink)

― NickB (NickB), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:53 (twenty years ago)

I think you have to be actively seeking work, rather than actively seeking mass murder.

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:55 (twenty years ago)

Best Job Centre interview ever.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:55 (twenty years ago)

well, to be fair, they were indeed 'taking advantage'. the benefits system was never conceived as a means of subsistence for anyone who wanted it over protracted periods, still less for people actively engaged in clandestine war with the state; it was conceived in a situation where full employment was a government election pledge. this is all trivial, of course, in this context.

but there is a story here, for reasons i gave above. obviously saying so rings liberal alarm bells because 'we all know' the sun is hostile to people on benefits in general, recent immigrants in particular.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:57 (twenty years ago)

It's a pintless debate; the point for the Sun is that everyone on benefits abuses the system. They posit a deserving recipient of benefits who amazingly never becomes real. Their problem is not with benefits scroungers but benefits; their agenda is to roll-back the Beveridge settlement, and to the list of foreign pikey scum, fat lardy chav trash, they can now add 'terrorists' to the list of Reason Why We Really Should Just Abolish The Welfare State And All Use Private Insurance.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:57 (twenty years ago)

I'll have a pint to discuss it though if needed.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:58 (twenty years ago)

I think you have to be actively seeking work, rather than actively seeking mass murder.
-- Teh HoBB (jamiefak...), July 26th, 2005.

in a nutshell.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 08:59 (twenty years ago)

their agenda is to roll-back the Beveridge settlement

this has been government policy since 1976, dave!

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:00 (twenty years ago)

Don't lots of people on benefits read The Sun?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:02 (twenty years ago)

Come on Simon - it uses 'sponged' in the sub heading.

i think, if i were talking about terrorists claiming benefits in any broadsheet, i might consider using the word "sponged" as well :)

i accept what dave B says about the sun's editorial line in general, but i really do not think that's the issue here. regardless of anything else the sun might have printed about the benefits system, the fact remains that this is a valid story. the issue is the irony of someone receiving subsistence money from the very system they seek to destroy.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:04 (twenty years ago)

Steve, how were they abusing the benefit system?

It has been documented before how some people who match the description somewhat of the bombers (not physically, I mean what they believe in) have no interest in working even if they are able to, and their reason for claiming benefits is purely as a dubiously-reasoned statement of protest against and contempt for the system in which they live.

Maybe not the case for the recent bombers but I'd be surprised if it wasn't.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:10 (twenty years ago)

as i said, i doubt this was protest or contempt -- if you were a terrorist, you wouldn't get the state involved in your life unless you really needed the money. that tells you quite a lot about the bombers. that they were marks, potentially.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:14 (twenty years ago)

The classic right-wing trick here is to make people misread the message and say it's aimed at someone else; I'm a salt of the earth yeoman, not a scrounger, so I've got an interest in having a pop at scroungers to differentiate them from me, who is a legitimate benefit claimant. They miss the real thrust which is to get people to miss the point that they'll end up claiming you as a scounger too when they get around to it.

xpost - it says that the person who felt nihilistic enough to want to kill people didn't have a job, which isn't surprising. It says that we gave him piss-poor support in this, which isn't surprising, because that's what civilised states do. If the bafflement is how people can take from a system they despise, then i suggest thast in looking for reason and coherence from people who want to blow themselves and others up is a mistake.

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:20 (twenty years ago)

Is the support really piss-poor? Considering these people were British, considering other people they grew up with presumably managed to find jobs?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:22 (twenty years ago)

Where is this documented, exactly?

xpost Jesus Steve, you're turning blue before our eyes!

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:24 (twenty years ago)

One of the bombers was a primary school teacher until recently - I'm not sure what all this has to do with anything.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:27 (twenty years ago)

dave, surely the bombers are the very definition of scroungers! there's nothing particularly blue about positing the existence of 'scroungers' (horrible word); what's blue is what the sun does: implying that everyone on benefits is a fraud.

that these people weren't given support in finding a job, and that this contributed to their nihilism, which made them ripe for recruitment -- these are big assumptions. i guess we'll have to wait for the channel 4 drama.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:29 (twenty years ago)

"all this" = "all this talk of unemployed, disenfranchised youth" sorry

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:29 (twenty years ago)

Considering these people were British, considering other people they grew up with presumably managed to find jobs?

chicken-and-egg situation:

did their inability to find a job cause these young men to become more angry and disaffected, eventually culminating in their turning to radicalism ...

... or did they start claiming benefits because they thought, fuck it, i'm gonna be blowing myself up in a couple of years, no point getting a job?

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:30 (twenty years ago)

(sorry, that was an x-post)

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:31 (twenty years ago)

Where is this documented, exactly?

Momus actually linked to a broadsheet site article after the 7th on the first 'Explosion...' discussion thread which highlighted the glee with which some 'anti-West/pro-bombing their civilians' people abused the benefits system whilst simultaneously 'praying' for the destruction of buildings and lives on Western soil, as retaliation. Can't be bothered to track it down myself though. Likewise there have been a few BBC shows (inc. at least one Panorama) which have highlighted the contempt for the system among those same people - but I cannot supply more precise details at this time, so you don't have to believe me if you don't want to ;)

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:31 (twenty years ago)

He was a classroom assistant, Nick.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:33 (twenty years ago)

alba -- i think the teacher and the leeds bombers were not on benefits; the benefits clamants are the london bombers. the leeds guys were mostly too young to be claiming for seven years -- and were not disenfranchised or alienated youth, as you say.

or did they start claiming benefits because they thought, fuck it, i'm gonna be blowing myself up in a couple of years, no point getting a job?

from a tactical pov, this would be a risky move, inviting the social services in. they did this for the money, surely?

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:36 (twenty years ago)

Oh - OK. They called him a teacher in the early reports. Fair enough. I still don't think we're in a position to start bandying around theories that their desperation at their employment position had anything to do with their fanaticism. We just don't know the facts, and I don't see why people can't buy into Islamist terrorist patterns of thought without being poor, or uneducated or anything.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:39 (twenty years ago)

You can certainly have contempt for a system whilst taking it for all you can get. Indeed taking it for all you can get if you don't need it is pretty much a definition of contempt.

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:41 (twenty years ago)

people on benefits in general, recent immigrants

This is a little off topic but when I moved here I was what you would call an approved immigrant (spouse visa) and they put a big old stamp that said 'no recourse to public funds allowed' thing in my passport. So I thought recent immigrants were prohibited from receiving benefits. Do they just mean the asylum seekers that they don't allow to work and thus give benefits to?

― marianna (mariannapm), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:42 (twenty years ago)

alba -- i think the teacher and the leeds bombers were not on benefits; the benefits clamants are the london bombers.

I know - so what are people saying. That the useless london-based bombers got into it though unemployment and desperation but the leeds-based ones had some other reason? I dunno - it just all seems daft talk to me.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:42 (twenty years ago)

the 9/11 guys were not poor or uneducated, and i don't think the leeds ones were particularly so, either. but it's the london ones who were on benefits, and maybe were not so integrated into family/community? (we shall see.)

xp -- again, i don't think they took the money out of politics but because they needed it. if you were a terrorist, how much would you want to be interviewed by social services on a regualr basis?

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:43 (twenty years ago)

"did their inability to find a job cause these young men to become more angry and disaffected, eventually culminating in their turning to radicalism"

hasn't this always been the way? I certainly murdered my share of innocents back when I was on stuck on the dole.

― slb1, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:49 (twenty years ago)

It is a fallacy to believe that systems inspire loyalty. After all most recepients of benefits are not (and more importantly do not consider themselves) to be abusing the system. Let's be fair, if you are in the system it does not feel like you are being given a bountiful boon after all.

The thought process is simple: in a better world, the world we are happy to give up our lives for, things will be better. Seems a touch circular I know, but then how much complex political and economic theory will your average suicide bomber want to have, let alone actually have before they talk themselves out fo it?

― Pete (Pete), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:55 (twenty years ago)

Is murdering innocents when on the dole a euphemism for wanking?

― Dave B (daveb), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

the fact they were on benefits tells us less about their psychological motivation than it does about their concrete situation. if they had a good money supply, as the 9/11 hijackers did, they would not have been on benefits. i would also wager the claim process was a risk. the system does not produce loyalty -- far from it, it makes you resent the dependency -- but that dependency runs to the authorities knowing quite a lot about you.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 09:59 (twenty years ago)

It didn't look like a very nice flat anyway.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 10:04 (twenty years ago)

probably out of my price range :(

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 10:09 (twenty years ago)

i think in general the 'psychological approach' -- as in this; http://k-punk.abstractdynamics.org/archives/006015.html -- is somewhat off the point at this moment. there will always be a ready supply of young men ready to die, the big questions are about where they got their tanks and their guns and their bombs from. to put it in k-punk's usual terms, it's all about structures and networks.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 10:11 (twenty years ago)

I think we should keep a close watch on stevem - if he doesn't find a flat he can afford soon there's no telling what he might do.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 10:12 (twenty years ago)

Omar received £88 a week in housing benefit to pay for the council property and also received income support, immigration officials say.

This sober version is from The Times.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4716535.stm

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

i wz gonna say, archway road has been v sirensy.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

I misread a headline on the BBC news website as "Pirates meet to discuss terror laws", it's the best I've felt about all this.

― jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 16:41 (twenty years ago)

I hope I get this right.

The Daily Express excels itself
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/today/img/1.jpg?Tuesday,%2026-Jul-2005%2022:59:44%20BST/image.gif

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 21:26 (twenty years ago)

The headline the day after will be 'ALL SPONGING ASYLUM SEEKERS ARE BOMBERS'...

― Vic Fluro, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 21:35 (twenty years ago)

Jesus! I honestly thought that was a crass photoshopped parody until I checked.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)

I don't have photoshop. Wouldn't know how to doctor a pic. Sadly its a genuine cover taken from the bbc site http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/today/html/1.stm

The Sun gets in on the act too
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/newspapers/today/img/9.jpg?Tuesday,%2026-Jul-2005%2022:59:45%20BST/image.gif

Theres no Daily Mail cover. So god knows what they have!

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 21:42 (twenty years ago)

The Sun one is fine, really. It's the artless worsing of the Express one that had me fooled.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 21:45 (twenty years ago)

'artless worsing'?

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 21:53 (twenty years ago)

Sadly its a genuine cover

??????!!!!!!!!!

holy jesus, i thought you were taking the piss. (and i was going to congratulate you on a deftly written subdeck too.) jesus CHRIST, woah, that is ... that defies satire.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 21:53 (twenty years ago)

I couldn't believe it when i saw the express page.
If I had seen it first here i'm sure I would've thought it was photoshopped too.

Someone is bound to photoshop the
The headline the day after will be 'ALL SPONGING ASYLUM SEEKERS ARE BOMBERS'...
-- Vic Fluro suggestion

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 21:58 (twenty years ago)

wording, not worsing.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

FAP (Fancy a Protest) from Stop the War:


PROTEST AGAINST THE SHOOT TO KILL POLICY
LOBBY ON DOWNING STREET SW1A 2AA
5.30PM, THURSDAY 28TH JULY
On Friday 22nd July, Jean Charles de Menezes was walking from his home to Stockwell tube. Police in plain clothes followed him and just before he entered the underground station they shouted at him. Scared, he ran into the station with the police following him. They caught him, held him down and shot him in the head seven times. He had nothing to do with the London bombing campaign. He was unlucky enough to be wearing the wrong clothes and his skin was the wrong colour. Subsequently it has been revealed that the police have been operating a secret shoot-to-kill policy. Armed officers have been undergoing training with the Israeli defence forces.

This is the result.

The police now regret this 'tragic mistake'. The real tragic mistake has been the illegal, immoral and barbaric invasion of Iraq and the killing of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians. Londoners are now really paying the price of this war, both in the suicide bombings and in this public killing. We send our heartfelt condolences to Jean Charles de Menezes's family.

Following his death a peace and solidarity vigil, organised by the Stop the War Coalition, was held at Stockwell tube station. Speaking at the vigil John Rees from the Stop the War Coalition said, "However horrific the bombings in London on 7th July and however important it is to secure the safety of the public, there can be no excuse for the police adopting a shoot to kill policy which guns down innocent people in cold blood. This is precisely the crime for which we hold the terrorists responsible. The police in a democratic society have a duty to act with higher standards. They should be trying to diminish the climate of fear, not add to it."

A lobby on Downing Street has now been called to protest against the police shoot-to-kill policy and to call for all foreign troops to be withdrawn from Iraq. All opinion polls show that, despite Tony Blair's insistence to the contrary, two thirds of the British people think there is a link between the London bombings and the war in Iraq. The message to Tony Blair on Thursday will be "Stop the war to stop the terror". Please join the lobby if you can and spread the information as widely as possible.

PROTEST AGAINST THE SHOOT TO KILL POLICY
LOBBY ON DOWNING STREET SW1A 2AA
5.30PM, THURSDAY 28TH JULY.
SEND A MESSAGE TO TONY BLAIR:
STOP THE WAR TO STOP THE TERROR
BRING THE TROOPS HOME.
PLEASE BRING COLLEAGUES, FRIENDS, FAMILY AND DISTRIBUTE THIS EMAIL WIDELY
http://www.stopwar.org.uk/

― protesting, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 22:08 (twenty years ago)

That's a load of shit.

"there can be no excuse for the police adopting a shoot to kill policy which guns down innocent people in cold blood. This is precisely the crime for which we hold the terrorists responsible. The police in a democratic society have a duty to act with higher standards"

Obviously the police didn't think he was innocent. You cannot equate the tragic, accidental killing of one man with the senseless, calculated murder and maiming of dozens of people. The day the police start blowing up trains and buses indiscriminately is the day you can say that sentence with justification.

The message to Tony Blair on Thursday will be "Stop the war to stop the terror".

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Iraq war (and I'll acknowledge it's an absolute mess), it's ludicrously blinkered to suggest the recent bombings are caused solely by the situation in Iraq, and that withdrawing would stop the attacks. Also, as I'm sure somebody else here has already said, if you let the terrorists dictate government policy then when that racist lunatic was blowing up Brick Lane, Brixton, and the Admiral Duncan in Soho surely you would argue the government should have agreed to imprison all homosexuals and repatriate all immigrants to stop the attacks.

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

i agree you can't equate. but, the subtext is still, changes are made to laws and to society as a direct result of terror, ie we curtail civil liberties and change 'our way of life' while blair rambles on about how 'they wont change our way of life'

im not saying im against the policy. im not saying im for it either. but to deny that we are changing things ourselves as a reactive is disingeneous, which is of course tblairs speciality

similarly, there seems to be a reluctance to admit that iraq is neither the sole cause, or a cause at all. blair posits it as unrelated, and protestors posit it as an open and shut root cause. i guess people like things in black and white

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 04:42 (twenty years ago)

cause and effect is a daft conjecture to make, however as a motivating factor in the minds of the bombers; Iraq looms pretty large.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 04:44 (twenty years ago)

Cherie Blair is about to get in So Much Trouble for insisting that people are entitled to their civil rights

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 05:51 (twenty years ago)

this was worrying (from bbc):
>And two people were held on a train travelling to King's Cross.

― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 07:17 (twenty years ago)

hang on did someone spike my coffee? is that express headline 4 reals?

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:09 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, same here. It is sponging, right? Or have tabloids established such a hold over the word that they can spell it how they like?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:39 (twenty years ago)

it's ludicrously blinkered to suggest the recent bombings are caused solely by the situation in Iraq, and that withdrawing would stop the attacks

would you say this about what happened in Spain too? i know a lot of people do, i just have trouble convincing myself that there really is more to the motivation than what's happened with Iraq. you can't blame people for calling it as they see it, and arguments that 'it would've happened anyway' are no more 'provable'. I suspect a stronger case can be made for the 'why it was inevitable regardless of Iraq' argument though.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:42 (twenty years ago)

I suppose if it happened in Spain again then that would be 'proof' perhaps, but then there's that 'too late now' aspect.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:43 (twenty years ago)

I suspect a stronger case can be made for the 'why it was inevitable regardless of Iraq' argument though.

I can't say the likes of M3lan1e Phi11ips have convinced me either.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:44 (twenty years ago)

I think I would add the e to avoid confusion with the verb 'to spong'.

(x-post)

― Mädchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:46 (twenty years ago)

the spanish bombers were dropped in from north africa, which might make a difference. and they did have more explosives to continue the campaign. there were radical islamists ready to kill before now--richard reid, for example. iraq mayhave swung the issue, but that leaves a massive logical hole. as norman geras said in the guardian, surely any of the million 15 feb marchers are potential bombers if this is somehow the deciding issue. why would iraq make someone born in eritrea and raised in britain want to kill a load of civilians?

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:49 (twenty years ago)

I've never seen Tony Blair so hysterical or self-righteous as he was at his press conference yesterday. "There is no justification for suicide bombing. That goes for Britain, and, let's get this one out of the way, that goes for Israel too." I half expected him to say "In fact, there's no justification for bombing of any kind." But no, silly me, why would he say that?

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:55 (twenty years ago)

Once you're granted asylum, don't you become an asylum getter rather than a seeker? Or is it once a seeker, always a seeker?

Sir Ian Blair was quite convincing on C4 news last night. Maybe I am easily swayed though.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:55 (twenty years ago)

i've been thinking about that ian blair interview, and what annoyed me was his 'leaking': he made it clear he knew more than he was letting on. it's a way of reassuring us, i suppose.

momus otm re. tony blair.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:58 (twenty years ago)

Steve - I used the word 'solely'. I'm not denying that Iraq has played a part in this, I'm just arguing against the knee-jerk over-simplistic way that the anonymous poster last night was basically saying 'this is all the fault of Tony Blair for invading Iraq - pull out now to stop the bombing'.

But this has been coming for a long time. The Iraq war might have helped it along, but it's not the root cause. The September 11 attacks pre-dated the Iraq war by a long way. Richard Reid would have been the first British suicide bomber back in 2001 (and killed more people on that aeroplane than died in London) if other passengers hadn't managed to stop him.

This didn't start with Iraq, and it's not about Iraq, but Iraq has stirred things up further.

I just didn't like the opportunistic way the SWP / Stop the War people started trying to used the bombings to back their political position. Just because someone's against the war in Iraq, it doesn't mean that the government is to blame for the bombings or that they should pull out because of the bombings. When anti-abortionist Christian fundamentalists in America shoot doctors dead, it doesn't mean that the government is to blame or that the law should be changed.

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 08:58 (twenty years ago)

Is spong one of those magical Scottish 'words'?

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 09:05 (twenty years ago)

the stop the war honcho has a column in the grauniad today saying britain should pull out of iraq. it is an 'illegal' occupation. god knows what legal status pertains to whoever fills the power vacuum. iraq was a disaster -- maybe it didn't have to be, but the war, more importantly the occupation, was fucked-up. it has probably provided recruits for the footsoldiers in this war -- the actual bombers. but i'd think the terror networks, the camps in afghanistan and pakistan -- these existed before iraq.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 09:12 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, same here. It is sponging, right? Or have tabloids established such a hold over the word that they can spell it how they like?

See Hinge Verb Query

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 09:12 (twenty years ago)

re 'pulling out of Iraq', I grudgingly share the view that you have to clean up your mess before you can leave the premises, ESPECIALLY if you gatecrashed.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 09:53 (twenty years ago)

But most parties don't work that way, do they? Gatecrashers who make a mess are not generally encouraged to change their spots and help with the clean-up, are they? Usually the hosts just get rid of the gatecrashers and tidy up themselves, fearing more breakages and more irresponsibility. In fact, gatecrashers (people who, for instance, smash your display cabinet or your national museum) are, in themselves, the mess.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 10:18 (twenty years ago)

I think the Stop the War people using this to further their cause are just about on a par with the BNP using that photo of the bombed bus on their electioneering pamphlet.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 10:39 (twenty years ago)

Once you're granted asylum, don't you become an asylum getter rather than a seeker? Or is it once a seeker, always a seeker?

If by that you mean a refugee, yes. But the Government last week issued a statement that from August 30 people given refugee status will no longer qualify automatically for indefinite leave to remain but instead will be given leave to remain for five years.

In effect: we're going to be detaining and deporting a lot more people straight back to war zones. Good thing all the troubles in places like the Balkans and Zimbawe were sorted out in less than five years, eh Tony?

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:09 (twenty years ago)

"the anonymous poster last night was basically saying 'this is all the fault of Tony Blair for invading Iraq - pull out now to stop the bombing'"

Erm sorry that was a quote from Stop the War I wasn't saying it. I actually agree that the whole thing is far more complex than that the reductive War on Iraq = Suicide Bombers causality and have been interested in these reactions to StW's ostensible justification. In my mind the NIMBYist "Stop the War to stop the terror in London" is almost as reprehensibly obfuscatory as Blair's justifications.

― anonforareason, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

I think the Stop the War people using this to further their cause are just about on a par with the BNP using that photo of the bombed bus on their electioneering pamphlet.

Yeah, let's keep politics out of politics.

― Venga (Venga), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

i love the stop the war people's logic. hands up who *supports* the shooting of innocent civilians.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

I've only read the last 50 posts, so my apologies if this was talked about upthread ...

NYTimes today reports that there is evidence that the four bombers may not have known it was a suicide mission:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/27/international/europe/27suicide.html?pagewanted=1&th&emc=th
"
LONDON, July 26 - Within hours of the July 7 attacks here, many British police and intelligence officials assumed that the four bombers had intended to die with their bombs.

But in recent days, some police officials are increasingly considering the possibility that the men did not plan to commit suicide and were duped into dying.

Investigators raising doubts about the suicide assumption have cited evidence to support this theory. Each of the four men who died in the July 7 attacks purchased round-trip railway tickets from Luton to London. Germaine Lindsay's rented car left in Luton had a seven-day parking sticker on the dashboard.

A large quantity of explosives were stored in the trunk of that car, perhaps for another attack. Another bomber had just spent a large sum to repair his car. The men carried driver's licenses and other ID cards with them to their deaths, unusual for suicide bombers.

In addition, none left behind a note, videotape or Internet trail as suicide bombers have done in the past. And the bombers' families were baffled by what seemed to be their decisions to kill themselves.

While some of these clues could be seen as the work of men intent on covering their trail, some investigators increasingly believe that the men may have been conned into carrying the bombs onto the trains and leaving them, thinking they were going to explode minutes later.

― Draw Tipsy to see if you give a shit about art (Dave225), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

Unlike the way the govt are using the bombs to further their cause. Fuck that shit.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:29 (twenty years ago)

xpost

It seems pretty unlikely that they didn't know they were suicide bombers. There were no timers, either in the first attacks or the second wave of attacks. There was no reason for them not to carry their ID, as they probably wanted to be known after they died. As for the return tickets, and seven day hire of the car, in Britain a return train ticket costs virtually the same as a single so nobody buys a single. Also they were hardly going to say "Just single tickets for us please, we're going to blow ourselves up in London".

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:37 (twenty years ago)

if there were no timers, it's a fair bet they meant to do it -- i hadn't known there weren't. without timers how could they have been tricked into detonating the bombs?

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:40 (twenty years ago)

There were no timers, either in the first attacks or the second wave of attacks

I definitely read that the bus bomb on the 21st was left behind by somebody who got off the bus before it exploded, leaving it behind on the back seat of the top deck.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:41 (twenty years ago)

on indymedia?

Bush To London Bombers: 'Bring It On'
WASHINGTON, DC—President Bush officially responded to the latest round of London transit bombings Monday, challenging terrorists to "do their worst." Said Bush, in a televised statement from the Oval Office: "The proud and resilient people of London can take anything the forces of evil and cowardice can throw at them. They will never live in fear of you. Bring it on." Prime Minister Tony Blair thanked Bush for his comments, inviting him to visit London and ride the Underground in a show of solidarity.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

some investigators increasingly believe that the men may have been conned into carrying the bombs onto the trains and leaving them, thinking they were going to explode minutes later.

Which doesn't explain why the fourth guy carried his around for another hour before exploding it on the No30.

― Venga (Venga), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

"I suppose if it happened in Spain again then that would be 'proof' perhaps"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3981061.stm

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/03/1080941722786.html?from=storyrhs&oneclick=true

― slb1, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

I definitely read that the bus bomb on the 21st was left behind by somebody who got off the bus before it exploded, leaving it behind on the back seat of the top deck.

Yeah, you're right, I forgot that.

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

Bush To London Bombers: 'Bring It On'

Er, that's from The Onion.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

Return tickets, parking ticket etc - you've gotta have escape options if things go "wrong".

― NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:47 (twenty years ago)

We have had to wait quite a long time for a silly conspiracy theory, but it's very silly. "One of the bombers still had half a packet of Weetabix in this cupboard. Receipts show it was bought only three days before the blasts."

What does keep the politics out of politics mean? Don't answer that.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:56 (twenty years ago)

Hang on, this theory was reported a couple of days after the bombings, wasn't it?

― Mädchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

NYTimes today reports that there is evidence that the four bombers may not have known it was a suicide mission:

where has the NY times been? that theory was the daily mirror splash two weeks ago on saturday; it had been doing the rounds in this office for two days before that. jesus christ.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

This return ticket/were they duped? thing has been being bandied around for at least a fortnight - I read it in the Independent On Sunday the week before last. At the time I said "That was my theory!" but I wasn't very serious and I agree with PJ Miller's Weetabix comparison.

x-post

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:01 (twenty years ago)

hands up who *supports* the shooting of innocent civilians.

So you've not seen any media commentators or people on the internet saying "tragic mistake, but we musn't blame the police or try to prevent them doing it again, and besides he really shouldn't have ran...", then?

― Flyboy (Flyboy), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

TS: shooting of vs bombing of...

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:05 (twenty years ago)

That's hardly the same as encouraging the police to go out and shoot random people in the street. (xpost)

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

course i have seen commentators say that, flyboy, but no-one has supported the shooting of innocent civilians. i'm fairly sure the police don't want to do this again.

"However horrific the bombings in London on 7th July and however important it is to secure the safety of the public, there can be no excuse for the police adopting a shoot to kill policy which guns down innocent people in cold blood."

i mean are they fucking kidding? 'in cold blood'?

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:08 (twenty years ago)

Well, I hadn't heard it before. Otherwise I would have been bandying about my Weetabix comparison for two weeks.

Read over someone's shoulders that one of the failed bombers thought he was going to get 80 virgins in paradise. Yeah, right, who does he think he is, fucking Magnum?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:08 (twenty years ago)

Yeah isn't it usually 72 virgins? Why's he so special he's getting 8 more?

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

I overheard the newsdesk next to me getting excited about this upping of the virgin quotient earlier.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:38 (twenty years ago)

So it all boils down to jealousy that some guys are getting 80 virgins in this life. I just KNEW it was a sexual inadequacy issue.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:48 (twenty years ago)

guy caught in brum (using TASER -- wdn't this have worked as well in stockwell) might well be the warren st bomber.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

Oh, I didn't know there was a standard number of virgins. It's like four and twenty blackbirds.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

it's a whole lotta awkward fumbling either way!

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:54 (twenty years ago)

I like the idea that the number is just down to their own lack of ambition in this regard i.e. "think of a really big number!" "ooooooohh....80!"

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

"I've got 104 friends"

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

It's true. Or rather it might be true:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4720027.stm

Apparently, if it is him and he cooperates with the police, he'll get a "discount" on his virgins.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:07 (twenty years ago)

Richard Branson has a beard. COINCIDENCE?? I THINK NOT.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:08 (twenty years ago)

I don't know if this was mentioned before but didn't anyone find it a bit odd that one of the four would-be-bombers photographed is wearing a top with 'New York' on it?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

this rucksack thing is getting out of hand. glad i have a man-bag.

no, sociah, you are the first person ever to note the ironing there!

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:11 (twenty years ago)

it's quite a popular thing, to have, on a top

as is "CUBA" and others

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:11 (twenty years ago)

the tabloids certainly got excited about the NY top. "A MOCKING REFERENCE TO 9/11" said many. and, er, the sunday her4ld.

the newsdesk next to me

what, all one of them? :)

as for the virgins ... i thought it was round here that someone posted a vastly amusing "72 virgins 'bitterly disappointed'" headline after the failed bombings last week. wherever it was, it made me laff.

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:14 (twenty years ago)

I believe young people today wear the names of places emblazened on their apparel.

― Dave B (daveb), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:15 (twenty years ago)

'72 Virgins Call for Peace, Fingerbang'

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:18 (twenty years ago)

I had no idea! xpost

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:18 (twenty years ago)

'72 Virgins Call for Peace, Fingerbang'

-- N_RQ (bl0cke...), July 27th, 2005 3:18 PM. (later)

Who's Fingerbang? Any relation to Fingermouse?

― Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:24 (twenty years ago)

That's tweeing the tone.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:26 (twenty years ago)

I have got one from Sociedad.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:31 (twenty years ago)

Yaffi lifts a finger...

fingerbang was the boyband formed by cartman in southpark.


― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:40 (twenty years ago)

I still don't get it.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

Photo of 'Bombers' has been Doctored... http://strangeisnotafruit.blogs.com/my_weblog/2005/07/big_newsphoto_o.html

...according to a random blogger.

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 16:26 (twenty years ago)

HE'S A GHOSTIE!

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 16:33 (twenty years ago)

I love conspiracy theorists, especially ones who believe that running a grainy JPEG through an "Edge Detect" filter counts as "analysis".

From elsewhere on that site, and about the July 7th bombers:

It's beyond doubt that these four Muslims were framed. They were most likely hired as MI6 spies, sent to Pakistan and then brought back and told they were to take part in an important exercise to test national security. Give them the rucksacks, get them on the trains and then detonate the bombs remotely.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 17:55 (twenty years ago)

I thought the bloke's arm was bent at the elbow.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

The funniest conspiracy claim on that website has to be a quote from a Guardian article that appeared on July 9th. It's about a website that claimed responsibility for the bombs, and where it is hosted:

Website that carried al-Qaida claim has connections to Bush family

The server in Houston has intriguing connections. Everyone's Internet was founded by brothers Robert and Roy Marsh in 1998 and by 2002 had an income of more than $30m (now about £17m).

Renowned for his charitable work, Roy Marsh counts among his friends President George Bush's former sister-in-law, Sharon Bush, and the president's navy secretary.

(the headline is from the conspiracy website, the rest of the post a quote from the Grauniad)

It's funny because my former employers - a tiny web-retailing company - host their websites on that company's servers! I just thought we were using a rather cheap hosting supplier - I didn't realise we must have been best friends with the Bush family too!

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 18:14 (twenty years ago)

Hello,

I am the 'random blogger' to which you allude above. My site is www.strangeisnotafruit.blogs.com , firstly thank you for stopping by. The story regarding the odd looking CCTV footage is in fact an interesting case study but not the sum total of evidence showing that the London Bombings were an inside job(far from it). You may also be interested to note that the picture you mention can be found, in identical form as presented on my site, from all mainstream media websites as well official government sites. It may well be an optical illusion though on further study the bending elbow theory is actually highly implausible.


Nevertheless I am not a big fan of grainy picture evidence myself and am not a fan of conspiracy theories either.....accept the ones that are true ;0)

I hope that you will stop by again and review the data on my site, I welcome constructive feedback and only wish to know the truth and expose the liars.


Thanks for your time,

Kind regards


Phil

― Philip Howe, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 21:36 (twenty years ago)

I took a quick look and may easily have been wrong (and I don't have fantastic eyesight) but I would like it if The Bending Elbow Theory were to become as famous as, say, the Grassy Knoll.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 21:42 (twenty years ago)

xpost

You are completely mad.

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)

I have considered removing the doctored photo article from my site as I have a pet hate for grainy Jpeg conspiracy evidence myself, however of all the photographic evidence of any case I have ever studied before, this one picture strikes me as the most ominous and frankly surreal. If his elbow were above the bar you would expect to see atleast some space seperating both the railing and the darker area-his jacket/arm, in fact there is no space and even if his arm is bent, which I think it is, still the railing ough not to be visible in the way that it is.

For all intents and purposes you are probably loooking at an edited picture. For more on this story go to www.breakfornews.com , they have run a more indepth expose on the doctored photo.

Please stop by my site again, If you want to hear real questions being asked in regards to the London Bomings and other such evils I asure you you will find them on my site. Hell, you may even find yourself asking questions you didn't even know existed. I'm a man of reason and logic, not a tin foil hat wearer.....in fact hats don't so me at all so being the vain guy I am I would sooner have my brain cooked and filled with instructions from the big eyed grays on who to kill when i reach chapter 5 of 'catcher in the rye' than wear a hat ;0)


Kind regards to all and especially anyone affected by the London Bombings,

Thanks for visiting,

Phil

― Philip Howe, Wednesday, 27 July 2005 21:56 (twenty years ago)

The "section of railing" near his elbow looks like a band around the sleeve (which is a pretty common feature of many jackets). If you look at his other arm there is a similar band, though much less is visible. It is also at a steeper angle, therefore not appearing to be a section of the rail. The elbow bands and railing do look similar, but it's a very grainy photo, and even on his left sleeve the angle looks just a bit off to be the railing. Also, as said above, you would have to go to some extra effort insert his arm *behind* the rail in a doctored photo.

― nickn (nickn), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 22:46 (twenty years ago)

I'm hardly a photoshop expert, but as far as I know, dropping somebody falsely intoa picture involves cutting around that person, and then sticking them in. Now to drop them in and cover up everything behind them except that bit of railing, you'd also need to have gone out of your way to trim around that railing and specify that this should be in front of the thing you'd added, not behind it.

And obviously that wouldn't have happened unless the person creating the forgery wanted it to be obvious that it wasn't real. So yeah, I think this theory is quite obviously bunk.

― JimD (JimD), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 23:08 (twenty years ago)

Ah, sorry, people have already made that point, I should read more carefully.

― JimD (JimD), Wednesday, 27 July 2005 23:09 (twenty years ago)

It's probably far more likely that it's a shitty cheap CCTV camera and the screengrab was taken of a mix of two slightly different frames.

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 28 July 2005 00:16 (twenty years ago)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/visualsonic/blase/tubenote.jpg

Way to go Britons!


(post #1000)

― I'm Hi, Jared Fogle (ex machina), Thursday, 28 July 2005 03:00 (twenty years ago)

DAC Clarke released a second picture of the Shepherd's Bush suspect on Wednesday.

The first picture had shown him at Westbourne Park Tube station wearing a short-sleeved dark blue England football shirt and dark trousers

uh oh! ban football!

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 04:35 (twenty years ago)

(x-post) How silly! How silly!

Since when did England have dark blue football shirts?

There was a very heavy police presence on the underground this morning. I was quite impressed.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 28 July 2005 07:01 (twenty years ago)

The busses were practically deserted this morning. It was nice, as I got the bus-driver seat all to myself right up to Waterloo. But still, rather strange.

― It Is What A Man Does Which Demeans Him, Not What Is Done To Him (kate), Thursday, 28 July 2005 07:04 (twenty years ago)

So do the police have reason to believe that Thursdays are likely target days?

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Thursday, 28 July 2005 07:20 (twenty years ago)

yeah -- weirdly empty bus. is it just people being scared of thursdays?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 07:34 (twenty years ago)

"I never could get the hang of Thursdays..."

― Masonic Boom (kate), Thursday, 28 July 2005 07:35 (twenty years ago)

weird. i expected people to be put off next thursday, though.

― toby (tsg20), Thursday, 28 July 2005 07:48 (twenty years ago)

You drove the bus to Waterloo Kate?

xpost

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 28 July 2005 08:03 (twenty years ago)

According to the news, Thursday is the day, yes. Silly, really.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 28 July 2005 08:03 (twenty years ago)

By next Thursday it'll be August though, and al-Qaeda only strike when the day and month are both odd numbers, as any fule know.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 28 July 2005 08:03 (twenty years ago)

I drove the bus in the Pete sense of the phrase!

(Some young whippersnapper cut in front of me in the bus queue, even though there were only 5 people in it, but fortunately like most small hooligans he made a beeline for the back, so the choice seat was mine.)

― Masonic Boom (kate), Thursday, 28 July 2005 08:06 (twenty years ago)

lots of bags being searched at finsbury park this morning

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 28 July 2005 08:44 (twenty years ago)

w'happened at kings cross last night?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 08:47 (twenty years ago)

not a fan of conspiracy theories either.....accept the ones that are true

this typo above made me laugh.

― colette (a2lette), Thursday, 28 July 2005 09:48 (twenty years ago)

that's no innocent typo, colette...

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 09:51 (twenty years ago)

erm did something happen at kings cross last night?? i wasn't aware

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 10:23 (twenty years ago)

("popstarz is tomorrow night i think.." etc)

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 10:24 (twenty years ago)

Well spotted N_RQ !

Any of you here at all concerned that these supposed suicide bombers bought return train tickets, pay and display tickets, carried all their personal documentation on them. Hardly the way of a die hard suicide bomber is it, appears they expected to be going home.

Woner why they didn't blow up their bombs somewhere far more crowded, surely any trained Jihadist would of wanted to go for mass casualties right? why then a subway train carriage, sealed by steel and seperated from other carriages? don't very smart was it?

Do you find it odd that the media originally told us the explosives were of military design and later changed that to homemade?! quite a big leap don't you think? were the Forensic scientist's new hires do you suppose or perhaps drunk or hire on life?

How did the 'police' manage to decide, from the thoudands upon thousands of CCTV footage and thousands upon thousands of commutors who were the bombers and who were not?

In fact what actual Proof do you have there were any bombers at all?

What do you make of this eye witness claiming the bomb was UNDER the train and not, as suggested, in a rucksack or being carried and/or supervised by an 'asian' man?

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/region_wide/2005/07/11/83e33146-09af-4421-b2f4-1779a86926f9.lpf

Questions questions questions. Never assume anything. It makes and ASS out of U and ME

Your friend,


― Philip Howe, Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:05 (twenty years ago)

Your friend,

You're nuts

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:07 (twenty years ago)

you seem to know an awful lot about the mindset of suicide bombers.

― toby (tsg20), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:09 (twenty years ago)

Hardly the way of a die hard suicide bomber is it, appears they expected to be going home.

If they weren't expecting to die then that's extraordinary naivety/delusion/arroganc for all four of them to not expect to be caught - unless that was also the intention.


Going back to the shooting, because a lot of people at the time thought it odd that someone involved in the bomb attempts would still be in the capital the next day, what exactly was the logic/intelligence the police were working from when pursuing de Menezes?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:13 (twenty years ago)

If it's conspiracies you're looking for, perhaps someone can tell me why return train tickets cost about 10p more than single tickets on British trains.

Pick that one out of the back of the net!

Also, were they day return tickets or seven day return tickets, or perhaps even open returns, despite the increased cost? Because if they don't coincide with the alleged seven day parking ticket, I smell a rat.

2-0!

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

you seem to know an awful lot about the mindset of suicide bombers.
-- toby (toby_insertmysurnameher...), July 28th, 2005 12:09 PM. (tsg20) (later)

not to mention the scientific credibilities of the media.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:15 (twenty years ago)

I think the question on all our lips is:

Did they get a groupsave and get 4 tickets for the price of 2?

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

Meanwhile, Huw Edwards hosts Questions of Security: A BBC News Special tonight at 10.35 on BBC1.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

last night = security alert at Kingsx from what I could make out, our Victoria line train stopped but they let no-one off. Of course, the bloke next to me was tutting and huffing as it was all making him late - the tosser

― Porkpie (porkpie), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

Do you find it odd that the media originally told us the explosives were of military design and later changed that to homemade?! quite a big leap don't you think?

I love the way that when the media were reporting that the explosives were military-style, you jumped on it as proof that it was arranged by the government. Then, after the story changed, you, um, jumped on it as proof that it was arranged by the government.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)


And my sincerest apologies for the spelling mistakes and typo's. I am British though moved to Holland some time ago, My grammar is a bit rusty ;0)

Toby said:-

'you seem to know an awful lot about the mindset of suicide bombers. '

Well Toby such is the wonders of education and historical study, tends to teach you things you might not of previously known.

Anyone with even a general understanding of Suicide bombers is well aware of the traits by which you can identifiy them. All of which are sadly lacking in the persona's of these patsies.

Above all else you should find it very odd that they left no record, no suicide note, no proud declaration to Islam, no nothing. I repeat nothing. There is evidence that they were double crossed by a mastermind, now does that sound like the kind of thing a Fundamentalist mastermind does to a fellow Muslim? absolutely not. It is however exactly the way of a Black Ops, i.e. M15/MI6. Many of you are perhaps to young to remember that the MI5 were caught many times planting bombs, blowing things up, and trying to blame it on the IRA.

State sponsored terrorism is about as old as the wheel. One of the oldest and most used political tactics in history, but again, A study of history would be required to know this. Might I suggest starting with the Reichstag fire, Hitler's own act of state sponsored terror ultimately gave him bot the power and support he required to launch his nefarious agenda.

We cannot afford to know the truth retroactively this time around. By then it may be too late.


Your friend,


― Philip Howe, Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:18 (twenty years ago)

i wonder if it's a train+travelcard ticket that they've got.

i mean, it'd be dumb to buy a single ticket from luton, and THEN queue up for FUCKING AGES at kings cross at rush hour behind some tourist dude, trying to get a travelcard, when you have a bomb in your rucksack, is it?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:18 (twenty years ago)

xpost haha Ed!

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:19 (twenty years ago)

In fact what actual Proof do you have there were any bombers at all?

All the dead people? The bus ripped open like a fucking bean can?

Never assume anything. It makes and ASS out of U and ME
There is no I in TEAM, but there's a U in CUNT.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:20 (twenty years ago)

tomorrow's headline "Terrorists Spongers Took Advantage Of Groupsave Scheme"

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:20 (twenty years ago)

It will clash with Newsnight with Gavin Esler, that Huw Edwards programme. That is highly suspicious.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

hey phil, i might be missing something here, but can you answer me one simple question?

why would MI5 / MI6 /the government / the royal family / whoever *want* to blow up buses and trains in london? i mean, what would they have to gain?

― michael grant (michael digby grant), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

i think i'm too young to remember MI5 planting bombs to frame it on IRA, i am interested in this! Fill me in!

p.s. blue england football tops peter
http://www.englandfootballonline.com/images/Uniforms/EngUnif1996A.jpg

and this yummy one

http://www.thefa.com/NR/rdonlyres/AE8D047B-54F7-467B-99B1-B7A53F1A5B64/55996/DennisWise_1991_vTur_L.jpg

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:29 (twenty years ago)

Might I suggest starting with the Reichstag fire, Hitler's own act of state sponsored terror ultimately gave him bot the power and support he required to launch his nefarious agenda.

Hahah! So, what evidence is there that the Nazis started the Reichstag fire?

(note to people with no knowledge of German History: there isn't any. The Reichstag burning down was very convenient for Hitler, but what little evidence is available about it points to it having being started by a lone far-left nutter; and certainly to Hitler being surprised by it)

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:29 (twenty years ago)

Oh yes, they are blue.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

i think i'm too young to remember MI5 planting bombs to frame it on IRA, i am interested in this! Fill me in!

I'll fill you in. It didn't happen. Unless you're a mentalist.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

you can buy shirts with the England badge on that are like polo shirts or other sports casual attire - perhaps the 'dark blue shirt' referred to was something along those lines.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:31 (twenty years ago)

I'd still like to know why the police thought a Brazilian Catholic who was still in London a day after the incidents may have had links to them, though it may have been explained somewhere.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:32 (twenty years ago)

Whats going on at Euston?

― Raston Warrior Robot (alix), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:32 (twenty years ago)

Do you know why it isn't MI5/MI6/black helicopters etc. Because these places are staffed by humans and it only takes one of them to blow the whistle. Time and time again MI5/6 has been shown to be as leaky as a sieve and it isn't even beyond MI5 people to leave their bag in the back of a taxi.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:33 (twenty years ago)

I'm interested in Phil's implication (on his blog) that the Met Office are involved in this. They could be considered the real experts in disinformation, after all.

― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:35 (twenty years ago)

> no record, no suicide note, no proud declaration to Islam, no nothing. I repeat nothing.

er, that stuff that was posted on that website?

what you have to remember is that being a suicide bomber is a one-shot kind of deal, you don't have previous experience and you can't create patterns.

― koogs (koogs), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:36 (twenty years ago)

Me Toff Ice = Me Ice Toff = I kill rich people = DYS!!!!!!

― Dave B (daveb), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:47 (twenty years ago)

Koogs, our friend here said nothing, and even repeated, nothing. Can't you see how serious he is??

(actually, he said "no nothing" which, as any fule kno, is something. Accept the truth!!)

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:50 (twenty years ago)

ilx just got poxy fuled!! it's PROOF

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 11:59 (twenty years ago)

what i'm really intrigued by is what is the beef that phil has with Strange Fruit

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

The MI5 likes off-kilter indie post-rock and ecletica?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:02 (twenty years ago)

I was wondering if Phil was going to assume that we must be conspiring against him because the server called him a poxy fule.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:03 (twenty years ago)

I'd still like to know why the police thought a Brazilian Catholic who was still in London a day after the incidents may have had links to them, though it may have been explained somewhere.
-- Sociah T Azzahole (stevem7...), July 28th, 2005.

he lived in the same block of flats that one of the bombers lived in. that's it.


(hahahaha kidding -- actually he was a high-level mossad agent who was about to take the story overground; the spetznatz agents who whomped him HAD to shut him down)

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:03 (twenty years ago)

what i'm really intrigued by is what is the beef that phil has with Strange Fruit

Rump roast?

― NickB (NickB), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

re. the reichstag fire: you don't want to know why greek and swedish agents 'just happened' to be on a works outing in berlin that night, so i'll say no more of it.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:07 (twenty years ago)

he lived in the same block of flats that one of the bombers lived in.

If one of the bombers lived there, why hasn't anyone from that building been arrested?

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:09 (twenty years ago)

And what is the strange fruit that Phil has with his beef?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:09 (twenty years ago)

Ugli (rumours) fruit

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:10 (twenty years ago)

What's going on at Euston? Raston Warrior Robot has recevied no reply.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:11 (twenty years ago)

If one of the bombers lived there, why hasn't anyone from that building been arrested?

i thought they had. dunno. the story was, an item found with the detonators last thursday implicated the block of flats the brazilian lived in. the police staked it out.

dunno, though.

i mean, one weird thing: running into the tube station is only a good getaway plan if you KNOW there is a train on the platform.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:12 (twenty years ago)

And what is the strange fruit that Phil has with his beef?

aubergine, i assume

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

Anyone with even a general understanding of Suicide bombers is well aware of the traits by which you can identifiy them.

isn't that categorically false? otherwise, there'd be no problem rounding up all the likely suspects all over the world and just, you know, putting them somewhere safe? i thought this is one of those 'it's easy to find a pattern AFTER they're dead (which you maybe make up yourself) but is damn hard to actually make any sweeping generalisations about them or identify them?

― colette (a2lette), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:13 (twenty years ago)

Well you know some fo you seem intelligent, some of you seem less so and some of you simply prefer mud slinging and name calling over intelligent conversation.

It all good with me, I've been debating and researching for many many years and last time I checked had an IQ of 140, which supposedly makes me real smart, look see, I just killed a lizard by spitting my bacca at it, Mumma would be proud.

I only popped by becasue I saw a lot of hits coming from this forum. If you really want answers of the true kind then you ought to stop relying your own government who told you one of the biggest debunked conspiracy theories this decade- WMD in Iraq, hands up how many of you fell for that one? ... And you think they didn't already know there weren't any? lol! They were the ones who armed Saddam friends! of course they ficking knew!

If you want to trust proven liars who have thus far overseen the death of more than 100,000 Iraqi's then hell, good luck with that, we all have our purposes in this life no doubt.

But I think it best I leave you to it, do and think what you will, I may not agree with you but I would die for your right to speak freely.

Take care all, It would be an honour were you to stop my blog from time to time.

Thanks for your time,


Phil

― Phil Howe, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:14 (twenty years ago)

Stockwell sounds a bit like Roswell. I'm only saying!

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:17 (twenty years ago)

don't go phil! :(

WMD in Iraq, hands up how many of you fell for that one? ... And you think they didn't already know there weren't any? lol! They were the ones who armed Saddam friends! of course they ficking knew!

i didn't fall for it. but saddam DID once have wmd, right? he DID use chemical weapons on civilians, yeah?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:18 (twenty years ago)

Not only that but HE USED THEM ON HIS OWN PEOPLE. I've never understood why this is worse than using them on anyone else's people.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:20 (twenty years ago)

In front of that particular block of flats in Stockwell, just past the bus stop, there is a grassy knoll.

also "knoll" rhymes with "troll," as in "do not feed the."

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

phil are you no longer our friend? :(

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

WMD in Iraq, hands up how many of you fell for that one?
I think around these parts the answer to that is Not Very Many.

Thanks for telling us your IQ. Well done clever clogs.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:23 (twenty years ago)

Not only that but HE USED THEM ON HIS OWN PEOPLE. I've never understood why this is worse than using them on anyone else's people.

it's no better or worse but it's a little pompous to not at least try to cover it up and frame it on someone else, like the MI5 do.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:23 (twenty years ago)

they didn't think they were his people, innit.

xpost to dada

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

I knew Phil would end up getting mardy :-(

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:30 (twenty years ago)

My IQ is 3,936 on the Beaufort Scale

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

Take care all, It would be an honour were you to stop my blog from time to time.

We've decided to let you continue for now, to show that we believe in free speech, no matter how silly.

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

IQ testing has been demonstrated to be a singularly ineffective and divisive way of demonstrating "intelligence" (itself an unworkable construct in any meaningful measurable sense).

Personally, I measure smarts and the lack of by the number of incorrectly inserted apostrophes. But, if you DO want to play cock-swinging IQ games, Phil, I'd like to call Messrs Skidmore, Gee, Carlin, Sinker and, no doubt numerous others, to beat you down with their SUPERBRANES.

― Markelby (Mark C), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:35 (twenty years ago)

(x-post) Hark at Mr Burning Cross!

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:35 (twenty years ago)

Did Saddam really gas his own people? are you sure?


http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=24480

― Philip Howe, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

I'm just wondering whether it's not a good idea to check Mr Howe's ISP address vis-a-vis those pictures that were posted on the Liz thread last week...

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:37 (twenty years ago)

nah, i don't that's fair.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)

One of the objectives of terrorism is to undermine people's trust in their supposed "protectors," i.e. government and police. One way of doing this is to conjure up mythical conspiracy theories, with the intention of setting the populace against their rulers.

So how do we know that "Phil Howe" is not an al-Qaeda operative?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

"Well Toby such is the wonders of education and historical study, tends to teach you things you might not of previously known."

Somehow 'education & historical study' reads to me as, communing on the internet with other like-minded & equally pompous souls trading endless boneheaded theories about the illuminati/9-11/lizards/etc...

― mzui (mzui), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

Pelletiere wrote that Saddam Hussein has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. ”But accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were tragedies of war. There may be justifications for invading Iraq, but Halabja is not one of them.”

gassing civilians: genocide
gassing conscripts: tragedy of war

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:43 (twenty years ago)

Marcello I have not a clue what your talking about to be honest. But if it helps and should anyone really have any reason to check out my IP address then let me assist you. I am at work at the moment, I work for MCI/Worldcom, my office is located in Amsterdam. By night I write from home, I have a non fixed IP address account and live in Utrecht.

I hope this helps you Marcello. For security reasons, given that I work for the company largely responsible for the creation, up keep and evolution of the internet and future communications you will forgive me If I do not divulge further details that could see me fired.


Regards,


― Phil_howe, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:44 (twenty years ago)

Phil (BRANE SIZE 140) kills teh lizards spitting his bacca at them

xp

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:46 (twenty years ago)

I work for MCI/Worldcom, my office is located in Amsterdam. By night I write from home, I have a non fixed IP address account and live in Utrecht.

phil, for you own safety: run, get off the grid, disappear. if you know anything about marcello (codename IMPROV) you will know you have about 6 minutes' head start here.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)


Oh My Marcello your conspiracy theories make mine look like tax receipts.

Perhaps my photo on my site might convince you I really wouldn't look good with a turban and that I am far to sexy to blow myself to pieces.

Or perhaps not, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, after all.


Mind you when that picture was taken I had 3rd degree sdum burns from the Portugese heat, man it ficking hurt, at that point blowing myself up would a great relief.

Surfice to say I would of done it in solitude, perhaps in the sea? ......Oh crap but what about the widdle fishes?


hmmmmmm...


Clearly I annoy and anger most of you. There is really no point me hanging around, I have a girlfriend to verbally abuse me, Is that not punishment enough?


regards,

― Phil Howe, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:53 (twenty years ago)

england prevails, phil.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

Clearly I annoy and anger most of you.

Come off it. "Amuse", perhaps.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

So how do we know that "Phil Howe" is not an al-Qaeda operative?

This (and the idea that Phil posted pics to the Liz thread) is fighting conspiracy theory with conspiracy theory, paranoia with paranoia. I've noticed this happening before on ILX, when aggressive trolls are confronted with aggression far more trollish than their own. It doesn't look like a self-assured response at all.

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

Amuse, not annoy and anger.

Hey look, we both had the same thought, at the same time, sitting only inches apart. We are not longer in control of our minds.

OK, more than inches.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

I can't work out if he's barking mad, or just trying to wind everyone up. (Phil, not Momus).

― Teh HoBB (the pirate king), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

aw phil :( you can always stay and talk about fishes with us.. if you log out first you might even want to talk about the kinky stuff you do with your girlfriend! conspiracy theories are just a little dull t'is all!

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

WHO YOU CALLING AN AGGRESSIVE TROLL YOU CUNTIN CURRIE CUNT

*pause*

Anyway we've only got his word on any of that. Can't trust anyone these days. Not even you, Momus. That's the plan.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

Come off it Miller, we know you two share a chair.

xpost

― Raston Worrier Robot (alix), Thursday, 28 July 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

what's 'bacca'?

and momus, i read MC's statement with a touch of humor, and don't think anyone on this board has been aggressive to phil...anyone that comes around bragging about how clever they are, and how silly we are for believing something in the media is bound to get a response, and it all seemed fairly measured.

several xposts

― colette (a2lette), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:01 (twenty years ago)

conspiracy theories, like truth, are in the eye of the beholder. i'm not sure what either of them are 'for'

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:02 (twenty years ago)

cuntin' currie cunt isn't quite as good as fucking fanny fartface.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

I have a girlfriend to verbally abuse me

This piece of information has cheered me up no end

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

or, to put it another way, to believe nothing is true, is the same as believing everything is true, the disengagement of critical thought, in favour of being told of grand, comforting schemes

the reality of bunglers is scarier than the comfort blanket of secret order

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:04 (twenty years ago)

Clearly I annoy and anger most of you. There is really no point me hanging around, I have a girlfriend to verbally abuse me, Is that not punishment enough?

Identity solved, Phil has revealed himself as Calum.

― aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:05 (twenty years ago)

i too am relieved that it wasn't gerbil abuse

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

We only have one more day of Chair-Share bliss, Raston.

I don't think anything is happening at Euston.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:06 (twenty years ago)

the reality of bunglers is scarier than the comfort blanket of secret order

this isn't very funny, but i googled now so:

http://www.tellytunes.com/wallpapers/rainbow_bungle_800.jpg

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:08 (twenty years ago)


I don't think I was ever aggressive was I?

And I'm just trying to wind anyone up. Like I said, I saw a lot of hits coming from this place and wanted to check it out, saw some people misrepresenting me so wanted to state my case.


Conspiracy theories, the real ones, do tend to be dull, fantasy-the reality we generally live in- is fun. Personally I like to know what is going on and don't like being taken for an idiot or lied to.

Still when I'm not all serious and dull i'm a damn funny dude with the looks of bond and starry eyed girls trying to get me into bed. You probably didn't need to know that did you? If you didn't hate me before .............

― Phil Howe, Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:08 (twenty years ago)

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/SW_chewbacca_statue_L.jpg

(CEO of company responsible for the creation, up-keep and evolution of the internet and all future communication and technologies ever)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:09 (twenty years ago)

The Reality of Bunglers

At last, I have a title for my magic realist novel set on the night bus from George Square to Paisley Cross

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:11 (twenty years ago)

oh it's only calum. fair enough. it's always a pleasure to have the great man here to cheer us up in times of trouble!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:12 (twenty years ago)

some conspiracy theories are true. some 'truths' are true
some conspiracy theories are false. some 'truths' are false

we have to come to our theories about which ones are which.

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:13 (twenty years ago)

yet again mark s feks up my post with a failed image grrr!

anyway, it's good to know it's only calum. always a pleasure to have the company of the great man to cheer us up in times of turbulence!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:14 (twenty years ago)

phil you weren't aggressive at all, or trolling really

momus is an aesthetic imagineer -- his theories and insights are not intended to bear down on mere reality here and now

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:16 (twenty years ago)

phil whatever you do don't tell your girlfriend about the bond girls! she's going to give you more than just verbal abuse.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:16 (twenty years ago)

Ahem, if I may change the subject, I find it very interesting that a certain Cherie Booth writes in today's Guardian warning that the government may try to use the current bomb wave to restrict civil liberties:

"Nowhere has the importance of independent judges policing a constitution of principle become clearer than in the context of the threat and reality of terrorism. I say this in the month that London experienced a series of bomb blasts, killing and maiming many innocent civilians. Nothing I say here makes light of these horrific acts of violence, or of the responsibility imposed on governments to keep the public safe, or of the dangerous task performed by the police and intelligence services. At the same time, it is all too easy to respond in a way that undermines commitment to our most deeply held values and convictions and cheapens our right to call ourselves a civilised nation.

[...]

"Sometimes democracy must fight with one hand tied behind its back. None the less, it has the upper hand. Preserving the rule of law and recognition of individual liberties constitutes an important component of its understanding of security. At the end of the day, this strengthens its spirit, and this strength allows it to overcome its difficulties."

Since Cherie Booth is none other than Tony Blair's wife, the big question today has to be not "What's going on at Euston?" but "What's going on in Tony Blair's bedroom?"

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:16 (twenty years ago)

... or what's NOT going on

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:18 (twenty years ago)

seems the coupley verbal abuse is spreading. perhaps it is MI5

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

tony and cherie: it's like 'mr and mrs smith'.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

i don't want to consider the aesthetics of tony and cherie shagging.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

... difficult times call for difficult measures

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

What's going on in Bungle's bedroom?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:22 (twenty years ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymru/cyfoes/wythnosofeddwl/images/tony-cherie.jpg

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:25 (twenty years ago)

Cherie Booth for PM, I say! (And no jokes about "it's just PMT", you wretched sexists.)

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:25 (twenty years ago)

She should join Respect

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

momus is on the rag.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:34 (twenty years ago)

Momus is just on, period.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 28 July 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

Has anybody here ever seen the secret and unbroadcast, x-rated version of Rainbow?


http://www.keenaschips.co.uk/index.php?page=articles/misc_rainbow


― Phil Howe, Thursday, 28 July 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

So it is Sir Ian Blair inside that Bungle suit after all

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 14:05 (twenty years ago)

the bombers lived in a block of flats called BLAIR HOUSE. i think.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 14:07 (twenty years ago)

I heard they were all lizards in suits.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Thursday, 28 July 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

"Errrrrrrr, excuse me, madam, have you see any 12 foot lizards in the vicinity lately?"

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

Ha ha XPOST!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 28 July 2005 14:10 (twenty years ago)

aha from the guyardian:

"Meanwhile, armed officers remained at Blair House in Stockwell, where three women were arrested last night on suspicion of harbouring offenders. The building was cordoned off."

― N_RQ, Thursday, 28 July 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

Euston was evacuated at about 2pm-ish.

― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 28 July 2005 14:59 (twenty years ago)

kings cross about 620ish, train got held in station, with no explanation for a minute or two, then the tannoy said "ladies" and cut out, then the driver said we were being held but he didnt have any information. for the first time since the bombs i REALLY felt the tension, everyone was looking around and wondering what to do, could see fear in a way i hadnt really seen yet. felt like if one person panicked and got off, everyone would

i wonder about peaktime evacuations, especially of stations with multiple lines,

― charltonlido (gareth), Thursday, 28 July 2005 16:57 (twenty years ago)

I think all those policemen must have the day off today, hardly saw a single bobby on the way to work.

Oh well.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 29 July 2005 07:10 (twenty years ago)

police stopped my bus just south of mornington cres, they closed down hampstead road.

― N_RQ, Friday, 29 July 2005 07:39 (twenty years ago)

What happened in Brixton last night? Just a suspect package?

― Masonic Boom (kate), Friday, 29 July 2005 07:42 (twenty years ago)

If you scroll down here, you will find a link to watch Questions of Security, a kind of Question Time special about the bombings and surrounding issues, should you be interested and were out of reach of a television last night:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4726485.stm

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 29 July 2005 10:51 (twenty years ago)

Shami Chakrabati was very impressive on that, I thought.

― Cathy (Cathy), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:15 (twenty years ago)

Is anyone watching Sky news, they have a resident on the phone in a flat where police are attempting to get a man to leave a flat, all live.

Surely she's putting them at risk, as she's dictating the movements of the armed police officers.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:23 (twenty years ago)

I was wondering about that.

― Ed (dali), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

Agreed - she was excellent. As was Zaki Badawi, I thought.

x-post: wuh!?

― NickB (NickB), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4727975.stm

― beanz (beanz), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

What do you mean by dictating?

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:26 (twenty years ago)

sorry I meant relaying

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

reporting every move that she can see. Maybe terrorists don't have sky?

― Ed (dali), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

hampstead road had a bit of a road block yesterday morning, but it was actually a traffic accident. it's weird how it seems odd now to see roads blocked off for non-bomb-alert things.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

"Take your clothes off. Exit the building. Do you understand?"

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:35 (twenty years ago)

The lyrics to the new R Kelly single have leaked?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 29 July 2005 11:47 (twenty years ago)

They were all quite impressive, on that. But I felt a bit short-changed when Sir Ian Blair started repeating himself word for word.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 29 July 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

looks like they have caught two more of the bombers from last thurs.

― N_RQ, Friday, 29 July 2005 13:28 (twenty years ago)

Still baffled at how/why they would still be in London, though perhaps because it's the largest city in this country it's the best place to 'hide' in? Leaving the country being too risky perhaps.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

it depends where they have connections/places to stay i guess.

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:44 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, it's all about the network - and I guess they didn't really plan this far ahead...

― NickB (NickB), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:46 (twenty years ago)

yeah, they need boltholes, the ports are watched, and they want to do it again.

― N_RQ, Friday, 29 July 2005 13:55 (twenty years ago)

What mentalism is this?? (Two women arrested at Liverpool Street - entire area evacuated - WTFF?!)

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 29 July 2005 13:59 (twenty years ago)

"Initially there was obviously a bit of chaos. They tried to push people away and tried to stop people taking pictures with their mobile telephones," he said.

That is so going to overstretch police resources.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 29 July 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

oh it's friday again then?

― ken c (ken c), Friday, 29 July 2005 14:51 (twenty years ago)

Geez, a Somali and an Eritrean on the last round? Thanks, dudes.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 29 July 2005 15:27 (twenty years ago)

I am disappointed that Phil has apparently left.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Friday, 29 July 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

well you are always welcome to stop by his blog from time to time

― ken c (ken c), Saturday, 30 July 2005 07:51 (twenty years ago)

Seeing as he hardly ever gets comments left on it, I'm very tempted. He deserves *some* comments, even if they are all to poke holes in his favoured theories.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 30 July 2005 07:54 (twenty years ago)

sign off as "your friend" every time.

― ken c (ken c), Saturday, 30 July 2005 08:14 (twenty years ago)

well you are always welcome to stop by his blog from time to time

Now, you're misquoting him. He said people were welcome to stop his blog from time to time.

― Momus (Momus), Saturday, 30 July 2005 09:01 (twenty years ago)

* switches off the internet.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Saturday, 30 July 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

BBC News this morning:

Darcus "Thickus Pigshit" Howe: "We need to understand why some of our young people are prepared to kill themselves for the reward, in heaven, of seven Vestal virgins."

Bloody Latin extremists. If they like Ancient Rome so much, why don't they go and live there? We're all going to hell in a chariot etc etc etc etc

― Dadaismus (Dada), Saturday, 30 July 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

"We need to understand why some of our young people are prepared to kill themselves for the reward, in heaven, of seven Vestal virgins."

I blame Procul Harum.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 30 July 2005 11:48 (twenty years ago)

The Observer today:

"One of the men accused of taking part in the failed terror attacks in London on 21 July has claimed the bomb plot was directly inspired by Britain's involvement in the Iraq war.
In a remarkable insight into the motives behind the alleged would-be bombers, Hussain Osman, arrested in Rome on Friday, has revealed how the suspects watched hours of TV footage showing grief-stricken Iraqi widows and children alongside images of civilians killed in the conflict. He is alleged to have told prosecutors that after watching the footage: 'There was a feeling of hatred and a conviction that it was necessary to give a signal - to do something.'"

― Momus (Momus), Sunday, 31 July 2005 05:03 (twenty years ago)

That he decided to 'do something' by replicating the idiocies of that stupid, horrible war via trying to create more dead civilians and widows and widowers and orphans is precisely why I hate humanity in general (an extrapolation, granted).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 31 July 2005 05:16 (twenty years ago)

BBC:

"People from certain ethnic groups are more likely to be stopped and searched on London transport in the wake of the bombings, British Transport Police say.

A force spokesman said communities were not being singled out, but police have to "target the people we think may be involved" in bomb attacks.

The policy has been supported by Home Office minister Hazel Blears."

Fucking great.

― Tannenbaum Schmidt (Nik), Sunday, 31 July 2005 21:30 (twenty years ago)

'Communities'. AAAARGH.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 31 July 2005 21:35 (twenty years ago)

Considering the one Jamaican dude in the 7/7 attacks, this is even more silly than might be first guessed.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 31 July 2005 21:41 (twenty years ago)

Things fall apart.

― Alba (Alba), Sunday, 31 July 2005 22:00 (twenty years ago)

You don't believe what that bloke in Italy says, do you, Momus? Does anybody else?

One thing to arise from all this - the morning sunshine in Rome is very pleasant, as seen on breakfast television.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 1 August 2005 06:45 (twenty years ago)

"One of the men accused of taking part in the failed terror attacks in London on 21 July has claimed the bomb plot was directly inspired by Britain's involvement in the Iraq war.
In a remarkable insight..."

yes, what a remarkable insight.

― N_RQ, Monday, 1 August 2005 08:02 (twenty years ago)

who wasn't appalled by the loss of civilian life in iraq? it's a bit like explaining 9/11 in terms of the US troops stationed in saudi.

― N_RQ, Monday, 1 August 2005 08:08 (twenty years ago)

Osman was also reported as saying: "Religion had nothing to do with it. We were shown videos of the Iraq war and told we must do something big."

― N_RQ, Monday, 1 August 2005 08:16 (twenty years ago)

It's not the content of the statement that is being held us as remarkable is it? I read it as saying that the fact that we have an insight into an interrogation is remarkable.

― Dave B (daveb), Monday, 1 August 2005 08:24 (twenty years ago)

who wasn't appalled by the loss of civilian life in iraq? it's a bit like explaining 9/11 in terms of the US troops stationed in saudi.

uh, sarcasm?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 1 August 2005 08:39 (twenty years ago)

> We were shown videos of the Iraq war and told we must do something big.

but doesn't his defence seem to be resting on the 'we never meant for the bombs to explode' angle? something big = fake bombs?

― koogs (koogs), Monday, 1 August 2005 08:44 (twenty years ago)

i think blaming 9/11 on sarcasm is stretching it a little too far.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 1 August 2005 08:45 (twenty years ago)

it's not at all sarcasm. it's mind-bogglingly off the point to take the stated aims of AQ as the actual 'causes' of their actions. i suppose it's distantly possible that if the US had never stationed troops there the 1993 and 2001 attacks on new york wouldn't have happened, but the fundamental fact of US embroilment in mid-east politics, combined with the rise wahabissm, amde these likely at some point on the timeline. of course iraq and saudi are in there, but to smugly sit back, as the stop the war crew do, and say, 'if the US pulled out of the mid-east,' a fantasy in pretty much any possible development of modern history, 'then we'd all be safe' just won't do.

― N_RQ, Monday, 1 August 2005 08:48 (twenty years ago)

I see just as much smugness in the people who continue to assert that 'pulling out' or having never intervened in the first place would not have prevented what's happened from happening. Yes the links are over simplistic but that's how AQ-affiliates seem to like them when explaining themselves on tape. Of course there is the question 'how can you believe what they say?' but what sort of choice is believing them vs believing the speculation of 'experts' here that this was all inevitable?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 1 August 2005 08:56 (twenty years ago)

i'm sure the bomber himself is being genuine here, but as with anyone, what we say about why we do stuff isn't the full story. add to that the fact that there's a network behind these bombers. the second point can be argued more strongly, i think -- these guys as patsies for a bigger organization. but the first point is also important.

like any life decision, you follow a kind of logic that isn't yours. this guy's logic said that images of dead civilians in iraq meant he must kill civilians here. tony blair's logic said he had to kill civilians there -- but no-one would take blair's account of his actions as the real reason for the war. not because he's 'lying' (he's a sincere idiot) but because things are more complex than that -- even small-scale terrorist attacks. no-one likes seeing dead civilians in iraq, including the perpetrators, yet these things happen. somehow the bomber ended up in a place where this seemed like the thing to do.

i'm not discounting iraq as a subjective motivation, but other concrete causes (by his account *not* islamism -- i guess we'll see about that, and the 7/7 bombers' possible visits to madrasses in pakistan) will be *at least* as important.

― N_RQ, Monday, 1 August 2005 09:16 (twenty years ago)


i'm sure the bomber himself is being genuine here

My take on it is that he failed in his attempt to blow loads of people up (who makes fake nail bombs?), so now he is causing as much mayhem as possible by shifting the blame to Blair and Bush, causing a schism in the united front, blah blah blah.

This seems very obvious to me, so I'm probably wrong. But it's like if these people in Huyton say, "Oh, we just meant to give him a bit of a warning, put the wind up him a bit."

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 1 August 2005 10:24 (twenty years ago)

i like the idea of a bomb that shoots out fake nails in gloriously coloured varnish.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 1 August 2005 10:42 (twenty years ago)

you guys are never gonna let me forget the rubber nails thing, are you?

― g-kit (g-kit), Monday, 1 August 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

I don't know! Young people today!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/4738195.stm

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 11:30 (twenty years ago)

bloody aussies! we let them win at cricket and look how they repay us with their sub-TNT Magazine antics!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 11:36 (twenty years ago)

feeling better about rubber nails thing. there ARE peoples what be dumber than me.

― g-kit (g-kit), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 11:36 (twenty years ago)

what happened to that girl who actually phoned the police, i wonder.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 11:53 (twenty years ago)

Some points extracted from a profile of (failed) bomber Osman, in the Guardian:

"Born in Ethiopia as Hamdi Adus Issac. Arrived in Italy as a teenager in 1991. Lived in Colleferro, a town 40 miles south of Rome. Residents recalled a taciturn youngster who made extra cash selling plastic lighters in shops and bars, but disagreed over whether it was Hamdi or a brother. At some point in the 90s, Mr Issac moved to the big city.

There, he attended school and, according to a former girlfriend interviewed by the newspaper La Repubblica, hung out with friends at a spot near the entrance to the Villa Borghese park, not far from the tourist-packed Piazza del Popolo. His nickname was "Bambi".

"We called him that because of his big dark eyes, like those of a fawn, and his long, thick eyelashes," said the woman, now aged 26, whose name was not given by the newspaper. The nickname seems to have fitted with his personality in those days too.

"He didn't mix in bad company. If a fight broke out, he'd always step in to make peace," she said. After they started to go out, "we went to a disco every Saturday afternoon. He was obsessed with America. It was his dream. The music. Hip-hop.

"He dressed rapper-style. Trousers with a dropped crutch and a basketball vest. He drank alcohol: beer. He danced really well."

Mr Issac's former companion continued: "Everyone knew he was a Muslim and a believer, but he never talked about it to me, nor did he have any problems going out with those of us who were not Muslims. It was just that he didn't eat pork.

"As far as belief was concerned, we used to talk about what we believed in in life and whether we believed in God or not. He did."

But more than anything he was known as a rimorchione, an able and enthusiastic puller of the girls.

His idol in those days was the US rapper Tupac Shakur, the son of a Black Panther, who was killed in a drive-by shooting in Los Angeles in 1996... The man who was later to become a terrorist suspect was entranced by African-American culture, including gangsta rap. He and some of his friends even added a "g" to their names as a tribute to their heroes.

But, said his former companion, their entire circle was entranced by rap, and "Hamdi was not a violent person".

She and other Italian friends kept in touch with the handsome young Ethiopian after he moved to Britain and became Hussein Osman. "Every so often, Hamdi came back to Rome for holidays and we saw each other again."

It worked the other way too. Sometimes, an Italian friend on a visit to London would look him up. Which is how they found that he seemed to have changed more than just his name.

"They told me Hamdi had imposed the veil on his partner", said his former girlfriend. "I don't know if it's true."

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:18 (twenty years ago)

It's got nothing to do with religion of course

― Danperryismus (Dada), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:21 (twenty years ago)

The Guardian titles its piece, rather jazzily, "Suspect was a Roman Romeo in love with US". But is being in love with rap the same as being in love with the US? Actually, I'm inclined to think it is. I think "gangsta" is a good description of the US' self-image and behaviour.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:23 (twenty years ago)

his former girlfriend thought he was obsessed with the US i guess. it was the rap and the clothes and the drinking of beer.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:29 (twenty years ago)

well, if you love rap you love one *aspect* of america; if you love supply-side economics you love *another* aspect, if you love le tigre you love *yet another* aspect.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:32 (twenty years ago)

So his bomb "action" was an expression of his dissatisfaction with the ____________ aspect of America (N_RQ to fill in the gap, please).

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

he should have been bombing america surely if it was about aspects of america.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:38 (twenty years ago)

could be the bombing iraq aspect
could be the backing of israel aspect
could be the not-making-women-cover-up aspect
could be he couldn't deal with west coast rap getting sonned

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:39 (twenty years ago)

Could be the posthumous milking of Tupac outtakes aspect

― Danperryismus (Dada), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

maybe he just hates UK garage.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:44 (twenty years ago)

let's hope he digs UK cell.

― g-kit (g-kit), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)

we call them mobiles here.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:03 (twenty years ago)

we call them lollerphones

― g-kit (g-kit), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:05 (twenty years ago)

Roads closed around King's Cross again after "incident"

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:18 (twenty years ago)

Police seal off London streets due to suspect bus

LONDON, Aug 2 (Reuters) - British police sealed off an area around Kings Cross station in central London on Tuesday and said there was a bus in the area with smoke coming out of it.

"I don't think we should jump to any conclusions," a police spokesman said, adding that a van from the bomb disposal unit was on its way to the scene as a precaution.

Someone forgot to check the oil.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:33 (twenty years ago)

It's on Gray's Inn Road apparently.

― suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:34 (twenty years ago)

well the last time they sealed off camden road where i live, they found a suspect package which was some cardboard box, which the bomb disposal expert folded up, and threw into the bin.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

christ, if they sealed off the roads in glasgow every time smoke came out of a bus ...

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:39 (twenty years ago)

GLASGOW, Aug 2 (Reuters) - British police sealed off an area around Central Station in Gondon on Tuesday and said there was a bus in the area with no smoke coming out of it.

"I don't think we should jump to any conclusions," a police spokesman said, adding that a van from the bomb disposal unit was on its way to the scene as a precaution.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:40 (twenty years ago)

there's a lot of sirens, and it is greys inn rd.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:40 (twenty years ago)

Gondon?

I want to live in Gondon.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

Blimey, i got the bus from Borough to Grays Inn Road on Saturday, wonder if it's the same number of bus.

― leigh (leigh), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:41 (twenty years ago)

yeah, probably just one, leigh. (hohoho, i slay me)

― g-kit (g-kit), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:43 (twenty years ago)

false alarm, according to bbc -- just a small fire on a bus.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

christ, if they sealed off the roads in glasgow every time there was a small fire on a bus ...

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:58 (twenty years ago)

Move along please, nothing to see here...

― Danperryismus (Dada), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:59 (twenty years ago)

small fire, like power surge?

― g-kit (g-kit), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 14:00 (twenty years ago)

New security alert in central London

Staff and agencies
Tuesday August 2, 2005

A fire on a double decker bus in central London caused busy roads to be closed in the King's Cross area this afternoon.
Police closed Gray's Inn Road, Euston Road and parts of Pentonville Road after smoke was seen coming from the Number 205 bus.

A suspect package was found on the bus, but CCTV pictures showed the vehicle's windows were intact.

"There was a small fire on a bus and it seems there was a bag found as well. Nobody was injured," said a spokesman for London Fire Brigade.


Article continues

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A spokesman for Scotland Yard spokesman said: "We had reports of smoke coming from a double decker bus on Gray's Inn Road."
Emergency services were called to the scene but were stood down after initial investigations by police.

Eyewitnesses said the cordons were being lifted in the area and traffic was returning to normal.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 14:14 (twenty years ago)

p.s. fire on a bus is hardly a "false alarm"!!!!

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

Also, if I was on a bus and it was on fire, I wouldn't be stopping to pick up my bags. I'd be the hell out of there.

― ailsa (ailsa), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 14:19 (twenty years ago)

given that it takes a while to empty a bus, you'd have time to pick up yr bag.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 2 August 2005 14:21 (twenty years ago)

Just out of interest, are any London-based people making special travel arrangements for Thursday? Planning to avoid public transport?

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 14:54 (twenty years ago)

it's a possibility.

― N_RQ, Tuesday, 2 August 2005 14:56 (twenty years ago)

i'm going to work dressed up as a US rapper.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 14:56 (twenty years ago)

Which one, Tha Trademarc?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 14:59 (twenty years ago)

I'm pretty sure there's stuff going on that the police aren't telling us about, vis a vis other terrorist cells

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 14:59 (twenty years ago)

Just out of interest, are any London-based people making special travel arrangements for Thursday? Planning to avoid public transport?

Why would someone try to do something on the one day of the week people now expect something most to happen? Blufferama.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 15:03 (twenty years ago)

it's to catch out those who thing lightling doesn't hit three times

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 15:10 (twenty years ago)

have you got a cold?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 15:19 (twenty years ago)

Blufferama.

But it might be a double bluff, or a triple bluff. Anyway, I know I'd sure as hell be walking if I were in London on Thursday. It would be worth it just to avoid the Israelization of the network that's sure to be happening that day.

― Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 15:20 (twenty years ago)

Superstition - nearly as bad as religion for dictating irrational behaviour!

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 15:26 (twenty years ago)

Has anyone commented on the footage we saw on TV last Saturday of the arrests made in West London? It was amazing stuff, the masked armoured policeman trying to entice 'Mohammed' out of his flat - suddenly a shirtless boy peeks around the corner bizarrely not terrified by policeman with big dog saying 'go inside!' is then joined by another shirtless boy - there was even a brief glimpse of shirtless father. Afterwards they were talking to camera and the Dad grinning sheepishly looked and sounded almost stoned and unaware of the scale of it all, his kids also beaming while saying how 'scared' they were. Classic or mentalism?

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 15:32 (twenty years ago)

Thursday's tubes are going to be very quiet, I'm sure.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 15:42 (twenty years ago)

I'll be travelling exactly the way I always do.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 16:25 (twenty years ago)

fully clothed and moving forwards eh? that's showin' em.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 16:27 (twenty years ago)

Martin - go to work unclothed. That way the terrorists won't know if they've won or lost and might thrown in the towel.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 16:30 (twenty years ago)

walk backwards into freedom from terror

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 16:32 (twenty years ago)

works for yer man in the Oval Office.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 16:33 (twenty years ago)

the terrorists may at least throw Martin the towel, or whip him with it, high school locker room jinx style.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 16:34 (twenty years ago)

If Sky News had live coverage of that, they could go pay-to-view.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 16:37 (twenty years ago)

Good way to entrap the enemy.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 16:40 (twenty years ago)

This forum is obsessed with Martin in the nude.

Some people apparently jumped from the top deck of that bus.

Very heavy police presence this morning. I had to quickly decide whether it would be more suspicious to walk straight through a big group of them or to walk round them. I chose the former. So for a brief moment I was surrounded by BIG BUTCH MEN.

No reason not to use the tube tomorrow, unless instructed otherwise. Although thank you for alarming us, Momus.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 07:02 (twenty years ago)

The bus was deserted again this morning. I like it when the bus is deserted, it means I get to sit in comfort.

― Masonic Boom (kate), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 07:04 (twenty years ago)

Has anyone commented on the footage we saw on TV last Saturday of the arrests made in West London? It was amazing stuff, the masked armoured policeman trying to entice 'Mohammed' out of his flat - suddenly a shirtless boy peeks around the corner bizarrely not terrified by policeman with big dog saying 'go inside!' is then joined by another shirtless boy - there was even a brief glimpse of shirtless father. Afterwards they were talking to camera and the Dad grinning sheepishly looked and sounded almost stoned and unaware of the scale of it all, his kids also beaming while saying how 'scared' they were. Classic or mentalism?

wtf???

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 07:30 (twenty years ago)

BBC News website speculates on Blair's retirement: "Commenting on the reports, a Downing Street spokesman said: "This issue is the last thing on the prime minister's mind. He is totally focused on the threat currently facing this country."

He's doing a really great job. The threat, which wasn't there at all when he took office, is getting bigger all the time. So big that when a spokesman means "The PM is getting on with his job" he says "The PM is focused on the threat".

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 07:31 (twenty years ago)

I wish that had read:

BBC News website speculates on Big Brother: "Commenting on the reports, a Downing Street spokesman said: "This issue is the last thing on the prime minister's mind. He is totally focused on the threat currently facing this country."

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 07:38 (twenty years ago)

i'm not sure what point momus is making. who out there though tony blair could operate as a backbencher!? he's gladstone through and through.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 07:42 (twenty years ago)

The threat, which wasn't there at all when he took office

I can hear the neoconical reptiloids howling from here

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 07:43 (twenty years ago)

i love the new 'omg this is costing so much $$$' angle in the press. 'course it can't go on forever, but there have been curiously few articles about the cost of maintaining an army in iraq.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 07:50 (twenty years ago)

i'm not sure what point momus is making.

I'm making the point that "focusing on the threat" has now replaced "running Britain fairly and efficiently" as the raison d'etre of the government. And that "focusing on the threat" might well mean "creating the threat". Maybe the retired Blair can turn the EU or the UN into big "threat focus groups", devising new threats for us all to focus on?

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 07:55 (twenty years ago)

"running Britain fairly and efficiently"

Did they ever say that?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 07:58 (twenty years ago)

"The PM is focused on the threat"

aren't they all on holiday for the whole of August?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005050000-2003410036,00.html

― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:00 (twenty years ago)

since 2001 blair has pretty much abandoned domestic policy. there is a threat, momus, don't be a menk.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:01 (twenty years ago)

i don't think Momus is denying that there is a threat.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:05 (twenty years ago)

"Maybe the retired Blair can turn the EU or the UN into big "threat focus groups", devising new threats for us all to focus on?"

what's he implying here then?

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:10 (twenty years ago)

that it's 1984?

― g-kit (g-kit), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:15 (twenty years ago)

I don't see what's so hard to understand, N_RQ. In countries like France and Germany there is currently no major terrorist threat from Islamists. That's because of the foreign policy of these countries: they did not participate in the Iraq War. Tony Blair put British citizens in the front line of George Bush's "international war on terror". It was a deliberate policy choice he made. Harold Wilson chose (very wisely) not to enter the Vietnam War. Blair could have followed suit. Because he didn't, indigenous 2nd gen Islamist Britons, previously peaceful, are turning into suicide bombers, Israelization is happening in Britain, and even Blair's spokesman is now forced to use phrases like "Tony Blair is focusing on the threat" when he means "business as usual".

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:18 (twenty years ago)

Tories not at all desperate for ambulance-chasing votes

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:19 (twenty years ago)

David Davis is Kilroy and I claim my five pounds.

― Onimo (GerryNemo), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:21 (twenty years ago)

Letter in today's Herald:

Responding to threat

CONFRONTED with the threat of ongoing terrorism, the security services and the police are both going to face enormous challenges. It therefore behoves the entire community to recognise the dangers and to accept that we may all suffer inconvenience because of the enhanced security that is now necessary. Nowhere is this more true than among the ethnic minorities within the United Kingdom, who are going to face proportionally more stop-and-search measures than the rest of the community.

Is this fair? The answer must be yes as there needs to be a recognition that resources are finite and therefore those resources must be targeted in the most efficient manner in order to protect the maximum number of people. As clearly the main threat is centred as coming from people from the ethnic minority population then nobody can complain when the security services and police concentrate, although not exclusively, on this section of the population.

This is not a new tactic as many Irish people living in London will confirm, having experienced the same tactics when the IRA atrocities were at their height some years ago.

I have already read complaints from some who think this is unfair but this is not correct as it is in the overwhelming interests of the entire community, irrespective of racial background, that this terrorism is successfully defeated as quickly as is possible. Nothing could do more harm to race relations in this country than for the indiscriminate bombing to continue, with the culprits being continually traced back as being of ethnic minority origin.

Already completely innocent and decent Asians are being viewed with suspicion and distrust because of the actions of a few extremists and although this is unfair on these people it is a natural and human reaction to the fear associated with these terrorist actions and will be impossible to halt if the bombings continue.

For those living within the UK illegally the dangers in running away from a police instruction to stop have already been demonstrated and again those people of minority ethnic origin who are living here as legal British citizens would be wise to co-operate with the authorities in identifying those who are living here illegally, as this is a growing problem and is also causing enormous resentment and damaging good race relations.

Although Britain is currently the centre of the terrorist debate, this is a worldwide problem, as the bombings in Egypt illustrate, and all governments face the problem of how best to face the threat. There are no simple answers and what is certain is that catching the terrorists will be difficult and will involve disruption and inconvenience for everyone.

Ia1n M Lawson, honorary consul in Scotland, Republic of Estonia, 27 B3n Lu1 Drive, Paisley.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:28 (twenty years ago)

"We should learn lessons from abroad - from the United States, where pride in the nation's values is much more prevalent among minorities than here," Mr Davis said.

Wait, let me get this straight, because we had 7/7 we need to learn from... the country that had 9/11?

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:31 (twenty years ago)

Here's my redux remix of that letter:

CONFRONTED with...inconvenience...ethnic minorities...are clearly the main threat...police atrocities...at their height...is in the overwhelming interests of the entire community, irrespective of...terrorism...Nothing could do more harm to race relations in this country than...completely innocent and decent Asians...suspicion and distrust...is a natural and human reaction...the dangers in...police instruction...have already been demonstrated and again those people of minority ethnic origin who are living here as legal British citizens...is a growing problem and is also causing enormous resentment and damaging good race relations.

Although Britain is...simple...catching the terrorists...will involve...inconvenience.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:35 (twenty years ago)

We're supposed to have values as a nation? (xpost)

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:36 (twenty years ago)

tikka massala and fish and chips, stevem

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:37 (twenty years ago)

good value at Somerfield

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:38 (twenty years ago)

ok, momus, it's that simple: we invaded iraq, hence all this. what's your message for the egyptian government?

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:40 (twenty years ago)

and momus it's fkn ridiculous to compare the position of muslims in british society with that of palestinians in israel, wtf.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:45 (twenty years ago)

not quite the same thing though is it. the difference is that countries in Africa, the Middle East and Asia DID have these problems prior to 9/11 because of what was seen as Western corruption on 'their' turf.

9/11 and the previous WTC bomb demonstrated that terrorists were clearly starting to take it to the source...but considering tube bombs could've happened at any time before or after 9/11 i don't think the UK was considered such a 'worthy target' until the Iraq occupation/it's aftermath (being the final straw) - one of the bombers having already effectively confirmed this (unless of course you assert that he is fibbing).

So the general 'no Iraq intervention = no London bombs' point still holds AS MUCH currency as the denial as this - you can't be any more sure of one than the other really, but to call it as to see it etc.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:49 (twenty years ago)

ok, momus, it's that simple: we invaded iraq, hence all this. what's your message for the egyptian government?

Are you getting your ideology straight from Jack Straw?

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:55 (twenty years ago)

personally i think isrealisation is a great word and frankly genius concept, and we should use it as often as possible.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:57 (twenty years ago)

yeah, that's true, stevem. iraq definitely took things up a notch, and it was a bad idea. but there were terrorists here before then: richard reid, the ricin guy in manchester. young islamists were already taking trips to camps in pakistan and afghanistan before this. two went out to bomb israelis (i think they maimed a french woman).

momus, fuck off, are you getting yours from saddam hussein?

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 08:58 (twenty years ago)

george galloway i think

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:01 (twenty years ago)

richard reid, the ricin guy in manchester. young islamists were already taking trips to camps in pakistan and afghanistan before this. two went out to bomb israelis (i think they maimed a french woman).

didn't these all follow the Afghanistan occupation though? (forgot to throw Afghanistan in with Iraq). Not that I'm condemning the way in which the situation with the Taliban was handled.

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:02 (twenty years ago)

I assert that he is fibbing.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:04 (twenty years ago)

Watch who you're telling to "fuck off", N_RQ: on this issue, it's 66% of the British public.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:05 (twenty years ago)

I assert that he is fibbing.

Interesting!

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:08 (twenty years ago)

reid was like december 2001 -- chances are he got into islamism before the invasion (october 2001). presumably sourcing the explosives and planning the mission took longer than two months as well -- 9/11 took aaaages to plan. and as you say, the invasion of afghanistan is different from the invasion of iraq. at the time i was sort of against, now i really don't know. i certainly don't think it's comparable with vietnam. i think young brits were visiting the camps in pakistan/afghanistan before 9/11.

momus in populism shock!

xpost

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:09 (twenty years ago)

only 66%?

surely the question is not 'are they linked?' but 'how relevant is the obvious linkage wrt how Blair has handled Iraq situation?'

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:09 (twenty years ago)

Thank you, Sociah. I try my best.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:11 (twenty years ago)

jesus, anyway, of course the iraq war and the bombs are 'linked' but that doesn't make it the only cause. not that 'cause' and 'effect' are very useful terms here. the generally acknowledged injustice of versailles 'caused' hitler? *probably not*.

xp exactly stevem.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:11 (twenty years ago)

only 66%?

Yes, I was just thinking, it's probably in the 80s now, after Osman's explicit statement from Rome.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:14 (twenty years ago)

There is never one dominant cause, as your Versailles/Hitler reference illustrates, but I personally think of it as a pie chart on which maybe two thirds of the area represents Iraq - referring EXCLUSIVELY to London (not Egypt or wherever else).

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:14 (twenty years ago)

(In fact, what percentage of the UK population is Jack Straw?)

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:15 (twenty years ago)

as i said upthread, osman's account of his motivation is interesting but hardly serves as an explanation for the bombings. it's not unlike explaining the occupation of iraq in terms of the us military's recruitment material. the big historical causes need to be there as well as the subjective factor.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:18 (twenty years ago)

Yes it did actually, that and the perceived incompetence of the Weimar administration. Certainly paved the way for Hitler.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:19 (twenty years ago)

no, it just doesn't work like that. and then you're back at: well, in thatcase, what *caused* the unjust versailles treaty. it doesn't help all that much.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:21 (twenty years ago)

The point, Henry, is that the issue of reparations pissed the German people off no end and given the subsequent devaluation of the mark, depression, etc., they were ready to be taken in by "Germany Will Be Great Again/Never On Its Knees Again" memes from what was hitherto the German equivalent of the Monster Raving Loony Party.

If you really want to know what caused Hitler, then it was the shooting of Franz Ferdinand, because otherwise there would have been no WWI and Hitler would in all probability have expired as a penniless wino in the gutters of Vienna, which he was on the road to doing before being called up.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:25 (twenty years ago)

You seem to know an awful lot about how NAZI GERMANY STARTED I must say...

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:28 (twenty years ago)

well, yes. but then: why was franz ferdinand shot? aha, hitler caused by austro-russian beef. or: why did ff's death cause the war: germany and britain's absurd arms race, that kind of shit. i'm not saying all causes are equal; i'm saying 'cause and effect' is too mechabnistic a model for how this shit works. so in the case of hitler: the negative 'cause' is the insane class-war policy of the soviet-dominated communist party. the positive is the fear of same by the capitalists who funded hitler's campaigns.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:30 (twenty years ago)

I still think he was fibbing.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:36 (twenty years ago)

I see, it all comes down to these interfering lefties, doesn't it?

You should write to the Guardian - I hear they're looking for a replacement for Aaronovitch.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:39 (twenty years ago)

"The real reason why the war started was simply because it was too much effort NOT to have a war."

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:43 (twenty years ago)

HUH? n-no, i was referring to stalin's comintern policy in which the KPD was not to ally with *anyone* to the right of them (well, obviously 'right' and 'left' are difficult terms here -- we are talking about stalin). but any case the communists in 1928-33 would not align themselves against hitler. the lefties didn't interfere *enough* (er plus they weren't good lefties but stalinist menks who got rid of the luxemburg tradition in the party). as i say: a NEGATIVE 'cause'.

xpost

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:44 (twenty years ago)

NR_Q, if you're impressed by Jack Straw-type reasoning ("terrorists strike all over the world, they hate civilisation, are irrational, etc"), why aren't you impressed by Bush/Blair-type reasoning: being in government means having to make "tough choices", "sometimes you're right and sometimes you're wrong", your choices have consequences, the choice to send troops to Iraq meant that a terrorist attack on London was "inevitable", and so on?

In other words, why do you want 7/7 to be a question of the personal responsibility of terrorists, but not a question of the personal responsibility of politicians?

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:44 (twenty years ago)

In other words, why do you want 7/7 to be a question of the personal responsibility of terrorists, but not a question of the personal responsibility of politicians?

this isn't entirely whati think, given i have said that the ubjective motivation of the individual bombers isn't very important. but atthe same time the people who set off the bombs are more respobnsible than the politicians who failed to stop them!

in your paragraph there's an 'is' part and an 'ought' part. i disagree that by asserting that 'is' i am somehow like jack straw. but i disagree with most of the 'ought'.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:48 (twenty years ago)

at the end of the day, i blame hstencil.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:50 (twenty years ago)

at the same time the people who set off the bombs are more respobnsible than the politicians who failed to stop them!

It's not just that politicians failed to stop the bombers, it's that they framed the whole context in which the bombers are operating. The politicians are themselves bombers: they bomb from 15,000 feet, but they still bomb. That's why Blair refused to condemn bombing when he condemned suicide bombing last week.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:53 (twenty years ago)

We elected them, so it is our fault. Serves us right.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:55 (twenty years ago)

I don't say that. I don't consider they're acting according to popular wishes. The Iraq War was vastly unpopular in the UK, and most Britons believe Blair misled them on WMDs.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 09:58 (twenty years ago)

they didn't frame "the whole" context though; some of it they did in response to events. again: i was agin the iraq war but it would probably not have happened without 9/11. it's a factor there. mais bien sur, amerikkka 'caused' 9/11 didn't it? it fostered islamism. it *made* russia invade afghanistan. indeed, wasn't communism invented by the cia in order to seize power in iran...

there's no space in you argument for the *choice* of people to react to x and y in this way. the men who set up camps in afghanistan. the men who procred the weapons, and those who carried them. you can't reduce this down to one cause -- 'america' -- and leave it at that, qed.

the war was unpopular. if hating the war was the only cause, how come all of us who hated the war aren't bombing buses? after all, the context has been thus framed.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:01 (twenty years ago)

But.. both Bush and Blair were re-elected, quite comfortably, following the invasion of Iraq, when the electorate were aware of the aftermath and the deceptions leading up to it. They *are* acting according to popular wishes, it would seem.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:04 (twenty years ago)

Let me put it this way. Politicians have vastly more power than terrorists. With great power comes great responsibility and great accountability. If Microsoft dominates 97% of all the computers in the world, and suddenly there's a horribly destructive virus made by hackers, and it wipes everyone's data, it is more Microsoft's fault than the hackers'. It's Microsoft's fault because they have a monopoly and forced everyone to use the same software, and for overlooking a loophole in their software, and for framing the whole basic context. And yes, it's also the hackers' fault, and the idiot lemmings who all bought Microsoft products. But mainly it's Microsoft. The terrorism situation at the moment is a response to the US being a kind of monopoly, the "last remaining superpower" after the disappearance of the Soviet Union.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:08 (twenty years ago)

"The terrorism situation at the moment is a response to the US being a kind of monopoly, the "last remaining superpower" after the disappearance of the Soviet Union."

you think? so not a response to israel/iraq at all? these terrorists are all *really* lamenting the decline of the organized left. if only they could see the still glowing light of russian communism and leave out all the theocratic dogmatism (oh hang on no, maybe there is a kind of affinity here) they could be genuine anti-imperialists... this has been a george galloway dream.

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:14 (twenty years ago)

You know as well as I do the connection between the US and Israel: without US support there would be no Israel, basically.

And you know as well as I do that there's no connection between Bin Laden and the "organised left": before he was fighting the US he was fighting the USSR.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

yes, that what i meant -- many of the causes adduced (eg israel) predate US monopoly (a fiction anyway). bin laden may have hated the left but there is a current among galloway's supporters that upholds the iraqi resistance as an anti-imperialist force (tariq ali: 'iraq is arabic for vietnam').

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:21 (twenty years ago)

there is a current among galloway's supporters that upholds the iraqi resistance as an anti-imperialist force

Well, that's like saying hackers are fighting monopolies when they make a virus that exploits a loophole in Internet Explorer. It is and isn't true.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 10:23 (twenty years ago)

Young person cleared after all:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/4741965.stm

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:48 (twenty years ago)

re germany's alledgedly clean hands -- this is quite interesting

― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:04 (twenty years ago)

Relax, kids - I saw a honky getting stop and searched.

I think they were taking people's names and addresses. I can't think why, unless it is to write to them and apologise for the inconvenience.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 4 August 2005 06:52 (twenty years ago)

wow, there were about 8 5-0 at friggin' great portland street! god knows how many at, like, bank.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 07:21 (twenty years ago)

i love that 66% thing!

33% said the PM bears "a lot of responsibility" for the attacks
31% said he bears "a little" responsibility
28% said his decision was "not responsible"

those 31% in the middle is a little vague, to say the least.. i mean


"people were asked to what extent, if at all, the game 'grand theft auto' was responsible for the bombings"

5% said GTA bears "a lot of responsibility" for the attacks
55% said GTA bears "a little" responsibility
20% said GTA was not responsible

OH MY GOD TWO THIRDS SAY GRAND THEFT AUTO IS LINKED TO THE IRAQ WAR!

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 4 August 2005 07:35 (twenty years ago)

that silly young girl is quite cute. i wonder if we had ever met in islington, north london while she was being a waitress.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 4 August 2005 07:38 (twenty years ago)

i still wonder what happened to her friend who dialed 999

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 4 August 2005 07:39 (twenty years ago)

there weren't any more than normal at ravenscourt park but then 'normal' is 3 these days and it is a titchy station. (OO guage!)

― koogs (koogs), Thursday, 4 August 2005 07:46 (twenty years ago)

i saw the orange juice girl today, ken.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 07:49 (twenty years ago)

awww isn't she the best?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 4 August 2005 07:52 (twenty years ago)

always smiling, saying "fresh orange juuuuuuus" and sometimes juggling an orange. it's love.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 4 August 2005 07:53 (twenty years ago)

You can't juggle one orange, Ken. You can just jiggle it about in a playful manner.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:32 (twenty years ago)

oh that's what she did then in that case, delightfully. If the orange juice wasn't quite so expensive I'd even have bought some.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:26 (twenty years ago)

Harold Wilson chose (very wisely) not to enter the Vietnam War

A fact which seems to have been airbrushed out of history, along with the fact that Thatcher, of all people, condemned the US invasion of Grenada.

And what did the British Left have to say about Wilson's refusal of LBJ's request for British troops to be sent to Vietnam? Why they savaged him for not condemning US intervention in Vietnam out of hand, of course! And marched up and down with banners denouncing him as a murderer!

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:35 (twenty years ago)

Germany has 2,200 troops in Afghanistan at the moment, for what it's worth.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:39 (twenty years ago)

The main reason Thatcher objected to the invasion of Grenada was that Reagan didn't ask her permission first.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:44 (twenty years ago)

The Catholics were the Muslims of 1605.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 10:47 (twenty years ago)

The lead story on BBC News right now:

"Al-Qaeda 'blames Blair for bombs': Osama Bin Laden's lieutenant warns London faces more attacks because of Tony Blair's policies."

Very cunning, the same "either with us or against us" tactic Bush used after 9/11. Now people like me can't argue any connection without being accused of parrotting Al Qaeda. They ruined the last US election by doing the same thing to Kerry's program.

Well, it might make a change from being told (cf. Henry upthread) you're parrotting George Galloway / Saddam Hussein. So there you go, it's official: now anyone making any link between Blair's bombs and suicide bombs is "on their side" and "against us".

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 4 August 2005 13:18 (twenty years ago)

poor old kerry, eh? staunchly anti-war kerry, friend of peaceniks everywhere. i'm not saying you're pro-AQ momus; if you'll recall i said that merely because you said anyone who thinks there's more to this than iraq is parroting straw.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 13:28 (twenty years ago)

So have they claimed responsibility? Or is he just, erm, hijacking events for his own blether?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 4 August 2005 13:38 (twenty years ago)

The "parroting Straw" remark came because you said "What about the Egypt bombs?" as a way to divert attention from the connection between the UK bombs and Iraq, just as Jack Straw did. That's more specific than "There's more to this than Iraq", which is clearly the case, and which I admit when I talk about Israel, or the status of the US as "hegemon", etc.

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 4 August 2005 13:43 (twenty years ago)

israel, like egypt, is a 'cause' that predates the iraq invasion by decades, but funnily enough people bring up israel more often because the cause there -- that of the palestinians -- is more sympathetic among western liberals than the cause in egypt -- the insufficiently islamic government of a muslim country. why not bring up egypt, given the bombing there two weeks ago? it's not diverting attention, just demonstrating that the situation is complex.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 13:49 (twenty years ago)

I thought talking about the US as "hegemon" was out.

I think they give people a receipt when they take their name and address.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 5 August 2005 07:32 (twenty years ago)

hegemon is back. i blame green gartside.

― N_RQ, Friday, 5 August 2005 07:42 (twenty years ago)

I might have known that stringy-haired git was responsible.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 5 August 2005 08:18 (twenty years ago)

Saudi Arabia officially warned Britain of an imminent terrorist attack on London just weeks ahead of the 7 July bombings after calls from one of al-Qaeda's most wanted operatives were traced to an active cell in the United Kingdom.

Senior Saudi security sources have confirmed they are investigating whether calls from Kareem al-Majati, last year named as one of al-Qaeda's chiefs in the Gulf kingdom, were made directly to the British ringleader of the 7 July bomb plotters.

Uh-oh.

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Sunday, 7 August 2005 00:39 (twenty years ago)

if true EITHER our security services dropped the ball OR there is another cell in which case OH SHIT WORST OF ALL our security services have yet to pick the ball up.

it's absolutely typical that the government concentrates on chucking out itinerant preachers and ignores the frickin terrorist NETWORK at large.

― Enrique, naked in an unfamiliar future where corporations run the world... (Enri, Sunday, 7 August 2005 11:38 (twenty years ago)

i had to look up the dictionary to find out what a hegemon was. i thought it was one of them cartoons with the cuddly pets.

― ken c (ken c), Sunday, 7 August 2005 15:25 (twenty years ago)

Hull City fans react to recent events:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4130850.stm

Hegemon = Jamaican Worzel Gummidge

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 8 August 2005 12:30 (twenty years ago)

Football chants written by witty cunts shocker!

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 8 August 2005 12:44 (twenty years ago)

The QPR fans should have sung back, "But at least we don't live in Hull"

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Monday, 8 August 2005 12:48 (twenty years ago)

As if Hull didn't look like a bombsite anyway, HEH

― Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Monday, 8 August 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

whats this stuff about Haroon Rashid Aswat supposedly having previously(?) been a double agent, whats the deal with the oregon camps he's wanted for (how did he escape then?), and a supposed role at the behest of the brits in albania/kosovo circa 99?

― charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 8 August 2005 13:18 (twenty years ago)

i dunno, but it sounds very '24' season one.

― N_RQ, Monday, 8 August 2005 13:19 (twenty years ago)

How does one go about setting up a terrorist training camp in the state of Oregon? Granted, we Americans are not known for our brightness, but it seems like the kind of thing that would be difficult to miss.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 9 August 2005 00:31 (twenty years ago)

Maybe they were going for the surreal. That's what all the news seems like nowadays.

― youn, Tuesday, 9 August 2005 01:56 (twenty years ago)

Police have launched an investigation after Queens Park Rangers fans were taunted about the London bombings.
The club's supporters were subjected to chants including, "You're just a town full of bombers" by Hull City fans.

but shouldn't that be to Leeds United, or Luton Town??

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 9 August 2005 09:31 (twenty years ago)

i don't know what charges the police can really put to the chanters though. "Being a twat" is an arrestable offence now?

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 9 August 2005 09:35 (twenty years ago)

I can understand why that has you in a panic, Ken.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 9 August 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

yeah who would i get to speak to if the rest of ilx get arrested?!??!?!?!?!?!

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 9 August 2005 11:29 (twenty years ago)

oh wait you mean i'm being arrestably twatty? woah handbags.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 9 August 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

they've just sealed off a chunk of tottenham court road, from the boots to euston road, 50 policemen outside warren street station.

no one can get out of our building just now

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:06 (twenty years ago)

come again?

― N_RQ, Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:10 (twenty years ago)

but shouldn't that be to Leeds United, or Luton Town??

Aylesbury Town surely? Provided Aylesbury Town actually exist of course.

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:12 (twenty years ago)

yes, a suspected bukakki bomb.

xpost

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:13 (twenty years ago)

It's Aylesbury United and yes they do indeed exist, they're in the Southern League. Someone I used to go to school with ended up playing for them after QPR let him go.

― NickB (NickB), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:20 (twenty years ago)

What Ken? Is that true about Tottenham Court Road?

― Anna (Anna), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:22 (twenty years ago)

there *are* a lot (even by recent standards) of sirens round here this morn.

― N_RQ, Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:24 (twenty years ago)

you gonna go hungry again, ken?

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:25 (twenty years ago)

wahey, cordons are off.

my lunchhour is safe (for now)

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:25 (twenty years ago)

there are a still a few police near warren street station but i think it was a false alarm in the end.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:26 (twenty years ago)

oh wait you mean i'm being arrestably twatty? woah handbags.
-- ken c (pykachu10...)

I think you would probably get away with a caution, Ken.

Sorry, I meant to write that the other day, it would have been better then.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 11 August 2005 09:35 (twenty years ago)

Are there a lot of helicopter rides today, or what?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 11 August 2005 10:07 (twenty years ago)

There's been a lot of undercover/unmarked police cars zooming around Haringey with those removable sirens on the roof blaring away lately.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 11 August 2005 10:26 (twenty years ago)

They're loving it, the coppers

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Dada), Thursday, 11 August 2005 10:29 (twenty years ago)

aylesbury united are "the ducks"

― ambrose (ambrose), Thursday, 11 August 2005 10:41 (twenty years ago)

There's been a lot of undercover/unmarked police cars zooming around Haringey with those removable sirens on the roof blaring away lately.
-- Colonel Poo (colonelpo...), August 11th, 2005 11:26 AM. (Colonel Poo) (later) (link)

sure it isn't just the latest item from the Gadget Shop?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 11 August 2005 10:58 (twenty years ago)

well, the Sainsbury's downstairs apparently has a "power failure" and was all closed - i don't know if that's related.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 11 August 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)


I don't know where to put this, but FBI has issued a terror warning for New York, Chicago and LA.

― whiteout (bobnope), Friday, 12 August 2005 06:26 (twenty years ago)

Just had a bomb scare, turned out to be headed paper. What a farce!

― not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:31 (twenty years ago)

Amazing and appalling just how at odds the details of the Menezes shooting are to the initial reports.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550565,00.html

― NickB (NickB), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 08:26 (twenty years ago)

New thread required I think

― Diddyismus (Dada), Wednesday, 17 August 2005 08:33 (twenty years ago)


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