Help me try and save something that I've broken.

Only problem now is that I'm not sure how best to open the conversation. I'm terrible at this stuff.

Calling her is pretty much out of the question at this point though, as she'll be back at her desk and won't be able to talk, but emailing seems a little insincere (even though a email is typed and ready... I just can't bring myself to hit send).

The Bloke gets like this sometimes. I recognise that he has a stressful job and can be in a shitty mood when he comes home, so I try and be as supportive as I can be (by listening to him grumble, offering hugs/cold beer etc) but it's not always easy to handle (esp if I've had a tough day myself). We've been together for yonks though, so we know each other's moods so well that we just kinda roll with it now (tomorrow is another day and all that).

If you've had to apologise repeatedly for being a douche, then maybe you ought to try and stop being such a douche so often. Being in a relationship doesn't automatically mean that you're entitled to use your partner as an emotional dumping ground - sometimes it's easy to take them for granted in that regard. Everyone needs to feel respected and cared for, and that means not just you but your girlfriend too.

Just call her, and say you're sorry. Maybe she has troubles or worries of her own and she didn't get a chance to talk to you about it last night because of your bad mood. Try asking her what was bothering her (apart from you being a prat).

Good luck!

Oh I didn't mean it like that, mostly we get on really well, I meant that I apologised repeatedly for ruining that evening, if you see what I mean.

xpost

Saying you were flat wrong can work wonders. Call her or email but don't be clingy or needy of her forgiveness. Leave her some space to move towards you.

*However*, it has happened sometimes in the past that the email server at work has gone on the blink and refused to deliver emails to me until a long time after they were sent, and it does seem to be pretty flaky today. Hence I am unsure as to whether she has sent me mail already, and I have just not got it, in which case should I carry on waiting to see what comes through? I imagine that she is in a meeting right now anyway...

Don't email her. Call her. If she's at work and unable to speak to you comfortably, just ring and tell her not to say anything but just to listen to your apology. Tell her that you're genuinely sorry and that you want to get things put right. Tell her you'll call her when she's home tonight so that you can talk properly, but that you didn;t want to leave it that long without saying something first. Cos you wuv her.

Everyone else:
Agreed about the first part of the email, which is why I mentioned what I had written, in some kind of attempt to get you all to vet it first, ha.

I think that my plan of action is not to email, but wait for her to call me. If she hasn't called by this evening then I will call her.

Further complications:
She has a thing on Wednesday nights that I normally accompany her to. So you can see the slight urgency I have.

Um anyway - yes, call don't email. CJOTM.

(xpost)

I shall heed that wise advice, Alix ;)

The longer you leave it, the more miserable she's going to be, and the more stressed and worried you are going to be. Why have two unhappy people, when the whole thing could be cleared up so easily. Life's too short for all this crap. Just call.

Maybe I should just turn up outside with some flowers.

A genuine "sorry" is all that's necessary here. But sooner rather than later.

Then perhaps I will call her just as she finishes work (then hopefully she will be able to talk).

...What?

Rest assured, every action is because I like her and miss her and hate myself for what I've done to her.

(That sounds more sinister than it actually is)

Ha, Dan OTM.

Also, I still think flowers would be cool -- who cares if it sets a precedent?? You've already admitted you were in the wrong, nothing wrong with a lavish apology when you know you've been a git. Ideally you won't be repeating this mistake any time soon, anyway!

"Actual contrition" - perfect.

Articulating a plan, whereby when you're an insufferable bastard in future, you agree to just say some code word and leave instead of having her spend an evening trying to console and feed you only for you to continue being insufferable - U & K

xposts

A) You recognize that you have acted the ass.
B) You will do your best to avoid acting the ass in the future.

END OF STORY. Giving explanations and indulging into post ass-acting analysis makes you look like you're either trying to invent an excuse whereby you acting the ass is somehow their fault or you don't actually have emotions and are a robot.

Which leads me to the third and final complication....

crosspost

Hahaha good luck with that.

Some people "need" detailed explanations. Some people do not "need" detailed explanations beyond, "Yeah, dude, I was whack". Generally, in my experience those lines have been drawn into categories I like to call "boys" and "girls."

Assuming tissp's gf is, well, a girl, I think that is bad advice.

xpost, this was not directed at tissp obv.

(No wonder she got pissed off)

Succinct.

OK, so I'm not a girl, and I'm not saying you need to bore someone with too much detail but I can't abide people who are just randomly and inexplicably melodramatic, cross, or crazy. When my gf or I feel this way, we don't get into fights, we go off and do something on our own until it passes and we can talk rationally.

Explanation fine but only if brief & to the point and NOT SELF-CENTERED. Would need to be more detailed if problem recurrs, exactly as Ally said but for now FOR FUCK'S SAKE keep it simple and let the thing blow over -- it's consuming far too much emotional energy already, since ideally you want her to forget the whole thing.

omg.

END OF STORY.

So VERY true.Dan's a wise man. :-))

The problem is, as I mentioned upthread, that ordinarily I would let this take as much time as it needs, but in this situation if I don't see her tonight, then I won't really be able to see her for the next few days, and that would be awful. So I'm caught in a dilemma where I want to give her space but also want this resolved here and now.

I'm sorry I have distracted this thread from the advice to tissp.

Tissp, call her now!

Overtalking is neurotic and self-centered.

Undertalking is a danger too.

Finding the balance between is key.

Ciao!

No, it wouldn't. A few days is nothing, really. Space might even good. Do ***CALL HER*** though, even if you can't see her. Like we haven't stressed that enough ;)

Whatever rationale you have for your behavior (whether expressed to her or not), you have to realize that while she was fixing you dinner, you were being a self-absorbed bitch and that despite being ready to listen and communicate with you, you went off and ruined the evening. If it sounds like I'm trying to make you feel bad, it's cause you should feel bad.

The ILXeresses feel you shouldn't explain to her but you had better figure out for yourself why you felt and behaved this way and either muster the discipline to at least be polite or excuse yourself from social interaction the next time this happens.

(a) Every time I have an issue with this person, it turns into a couple days worth of neurosis, non-contact, explanation, sudden headaches about setting everything straight, email server-blink confusion, and so on, leading at best to some kind of negotiated closure; or

(b) When I have an issue with this person, he apologizes quickly, magically restores a light-and-happy tone, and does nice stuff to make it up to me, and he does it all casually, because he's mature enough to know when he's been dumb, and confident enough to know that fucking up isn't the end of the world.

Please confirm when call has been made. And damnit be cool about the call. Sound sincere but not worked up. Sound like this was just one lousy night that you can both already look back on and laugh, because you like each other and things are good.

Nabisco also Voice of Reason, per the usual.

I think I'm OK Luna. *steadys herself*

Dan is OTM again you know?!!

Tissp, send her a text saying that you will call her when she finishes work.

Just keep in your head the words 'sorry, i was a twat'. You can even hang up as soon as you've said that, almost. Be contrite but chirpy and brief.

Now NO MORE THINKING. I don't want to see you on this thread again, ok?

It is worth considering that maybe something was up with her too, and part of why she got so mad was that she felt like you didn't care enough about HER day for her to talk about her problems, so it is not inconceivable that she's mad at more than just you.

OTM.

Are there people who can actually put this kind of stuff out of their minds?

What is broken here is more fundamental than your relationship with your gf - it's something basic in your life. You are acting irrational, moody, pissed off and like a douche because you are totally ignoring some very basic problem in your life and not lifting a finger to address that problem in an effective way.

What is called for here is not more contrition from you or forgiveness from your gf - although both will be necessary. If you expect your gf to continue to forgive your doucheness you need to:

1) identify what's the matter with your life and face up to it,
2) tell her what is behind all this crap you keep pulling on her,
3) make a reasonable plan to fix the problem - even if it will take years to play out to the end, and
4) start following that plan.

You will begin to feel better. She will forgive you more easily when you lapse. And you'll both have grounds to hope things will change for the better.

1) not change a thing and
2) hope some deus ex machina descends on wires and puts everything straight for you.

Not only do I only know tissp from here and not terribly well at that and his gf not at all, but what is he alluding to here and why not just say it?

This thread is at risk of overthinking even more than tissp was! Dude, aimless, we have no reason to believe tissp is all super-troubled -- he was just preoccupied and a dick one night, which is really a pretty normal thing to do. If they go on dating long enough, she'll do it right back to him at some point. (Ha: and chances are, if he tells her maybe she should go home, she won't be the one apologizing the next day -- she'll be the one accusing him of abandoning her in her moment of emotional crisis.) This is normal stuff, hence the advice that he just apologize, normally and casually, and get the whole thing out of the way and move on. It shouldn't be the sort of thing that becomes a massive soul-searching issue -- it should just be "god, I was an ass last night" / "yes you were" / "yes indeed, I'm so sorry, let me take you to dinner and apologize."

Your incident continued to play out until it came to a head at bedtime and then got out of control and became unmangable. It was late at nite you're both tired, and tired of the feeling that has surrounded you both all night long. All this adds insult to injury.

This probably isn't the 1st time this situation has happened either or she might not have reacted that way.

When you have apologised and get over the worst of it, it might be good to talk about how to handle it the next time, so it doesn't get out of hand. She should have checked the situation out with you right away. You know, spoken up and asked you point blank when you got there, "what's your problem? what happened to you today that you came here with this anger? It's not my fault, is it?" Then you likely would have told her no, it's not about you and I love you and it's really .... then ask her for her input and support on the subject that is bothering you. This will go a LONG way to remedy the situation and prevent it from happening again. Good luck man, life is tough but is even worse when you hurt and anger your best friend and SO. Relationships are tough too.

Sadly, I have to admit for the sake of fairness that this is also totally OTM.

"I'm a lesbian" Call. Ask if you can watch as break-up severance.

I've been diagnosed with an incurable disease" Call. Ask whether it's fatal or transmissible.

I've just finished having sex with your father" Call. Tell her you think her mom had more raw, sexual energy than your dad.

If you're bemoaning the predictability of human reaction to certain situations, I kind of don't get that, either, because it's not like we're talking about gigantically different cultural stimuli that need to be overcome in order for gestures and intentions to be read correctly.

Uh, because I don't like looking at life as a series of manipulations?

Oh fuck off, dude. Learn to distinguish between interacting with someone and manipulating them, then come back to the adult's table.

We could nitpick various tacitly-agreed upon gender roles to death and beyond but that's not really the point. Someone was a jerk, someone's feelings were hurt, and someone needs to remedy the situation.

I'm not sure where the line is between "a game" and "trying to send the right messages." For instance: some people might say that putting on a suit for a job interview is playing a game. I'd say it's just going out of your way to communicate something about yourself. Even if you're never actually going to wear that suit to work, you've still expressed something with it. And advice to tissp wasn't about how to "trick" or game this girl into liking him -- it was about how to put his best foot forward and solve a problem and get things back where he wanted them, without lying or tricking or freaking out.

But I dunno ... what constitutes a "game?" Because here's something I've come to think about relationships: you can't truly just-plain "be yourself" in them. That's the whole point of them. You have to make an effort to adapt yourself to accommodate someone else, and hopefully to become a "better" version of yourself in the process. And if that means learning new ways to work through problems like the one tissp is having, that's not a "trick" or a form of game-playing, that's learning something useful about how to be with people.

However:

Learn to distinguish between interacting with someone and manipulating them, then come back to the adult's table.

If all we're doing is interacting with people, then I don't see it as a game. But if you say that it is a game, after all, then I'm going to assume that there is strategy and manipulation involved. I have a feeling we're at a semantic crossroads here, though.

...

Thanks, Laurel. That was a reasonable post.

The only thing I said to you specifically was that I suspected, based on your personality and other posts I've read by you, that you would see game-playing as a positive and not a negative term. And I was right!

But the semantics -- seriously, is there any clear distinction between game and not-game? Pretending to be things you're really not, lying to people, preying on their weaknesses and insecurities, telling them what they want to hear: these are obvious forms of game-playing and manipulation. But there are small things, related things, that aren't so clear. At what point, for instance, does flattery become manipulation? Where's the line between pretending to be something you're not and making a genuine effort to be something you'd like to be? Say your girlfriend is feeling nervous and self-conscious about some event; she comes out in an average-looking outfit and asks you how she looks; you say "god, you look gorgeous" -- are you playing a game, or are you just doing a small nice thing to make life wonderful?

And it just becomes a matter of intent. If you do "nice" things completely heartlessly, not because you want to but because you want the credit and the results, then yes, you may be playing a game. If you do them completely selflessly, without a thought to results, then no, you're not playing a game. But it seems to me that 90% of normal life takes place on a spectrum between those two poles, where you do nice things partly to make someone feel good, and partly to let them know that you want to be good to them, and partly so that they'll want to do the same for you. The thing that makes it not a game is that you care about the consequences, and you care about the other player -- you want both sides to win.

Also FOR THE RECORD: I actually agree with most of the advice on here, including the idea that tissp! should probably offer a short, concise apology along the lines of "I was in a bad mood, I took it out on you, I apologize, let's forget about it" (I mean, Laurel's right: that's the sensible thing to do). But I did feel like some of the "boooo to explanations!" posts made it seem like relationships are these things where you observe these rules and codes and there are surefire ways of making your partner happy or upset (e.g., if she asks if she looks fat, ALWAYS LIE!! HAHAHA!!) -- rather than complex, nuanced human interactions where sometimes being HONEST and OPEN and COMMUNICATIVE is an asset, rather than a weakness.

xpost HONEST and OPEN and COMMUNICATIVE are good things. NITPICKING every single issue beyond comprehension is NOT. If you are just in a bad mood, took it out on someone, and now feel like a cock, there's no need for an explanation! Just "Sorry I took my mood out on you!" I mean that was the type of explanations people were booing on, the constant explanations over EVERYTHING. I mean jesus dude come on, don't go all misunderstanding.

I think a lot of people were reacting to the same impulse, and other obvious ideas like the fact that SERIOUSLY LET THE WHOLE THING BLOW OVER ALREADY by keeping it simple and light -- people just offered variations on this theme depending on what THEY themselves would find most effective.

actually, you raise a good point, jaymc, one that reminds me of the advice of carolyn hax. maybe people who are prone to spazzy panicking over everything should just go ahead and spaz, alienating the allys of the world and those of us who might prefer the hobo-stabbers. it's better to know sooner rather than later if someone is a spazzy panicker so that spazzy panickers may form relationships with other spazzy panickers or at least spazzy panicker complements.

A) have a spazzy panic attack?
B) stab a hobo?

You accidentally knock over a vase-shaped hobo prized by your significant other. Do you
a) etc..

A) have a spazzy panic attack?
B) stab a hobo?

A) have a spazzy panic attack?
B) stab a hobo?

A) having a spazzy panic attack?
B) stabbing a hobo?

That's why I took a little umbrage upthread, though not so much, apparently, as to leave none for jaymc. Ally, explanation was the THIRD thing I thought he should do and I didn't necessarily mean he should do it immediately after the apology. Obviosuly the first thing to say is 'Sorry' but I'd worry about someone for whom a random bad mood would lead them to be such a dick to their gf/bf. I can tell you that after ten years w/ my gf, were I to act like a total ass all night and do no more than apologize the next day, she would demand something better than "I was in a bad mood" as an explanation for such rude behavior. I recognize that men AND women have various personality types. I don't think that one can induce from Dan's relationship that all successful relationships work one way, Tolstoy's reductionism be damned.

tissp may have been freaking (understandable) but he did seek counsel (albeit from a gaggle of interweb mentalists) and he seemed to read the thread with good humor and humility so I have every hope for him, based on the limited info he provided.

I wasn't calling anyone here crazy and dumb. I said I had dumped people who were insufficiently communicative with me about the reasons they had hurt me. I think, on account, that you were right to say he not overthink his apology or offer too overwrought an explanation but I don't generally last very long with with disrespectful or rude gfs and frankly I like my women to feel the same way about me. If you're angry, tell me. If I can do something about it I will. If you're in a bad mood but don't want to talk about it and I can't do anything about it, go out for a walk, or I can, if you want to stay here, but don't use me as an emotional dumpsite if you want my love and respect and if you do, you'd better come up with a good story.

TS: ten years vs a few months

Obviously, if you've lasted ten years, you've learned something about your SO and your MO as a couple. If you've only been together a couple of months, you're setting the foundation now for the future so be a lover you can one day look back upon with satisfaction.

I don't know if my 23-years-but-ended-then relationship gets me plus or minus credibility, but we'd have explained to each other, preferably after apologising and settling ourselves. I can see in many other cases that it'd be a bad idea unless explaining took one or the other towards avoiding repeating mistakes. The key thing, I think, is not to assume that your desire to explain or not is the most important thing.

Martin, I addressed this with my "Generalizations for everyone!" post.

Dan, what am I suggesting people act like at the start of a relationship? Like it has a chance?

Like it's TRUE LOVE 4EVA AND EVA U R MY 1 SOLEMATE PLUR while you're still getting to know what the person is actually like (I personally have a theory that you can't have a "serious" relationship with someone until you've been dating for a year because the time before is still negotiating fundamental compatibility and finding out who this person actually is but I recognize that's not a fast and hard rule; in fact, nothing I've said on this thread was intended to be a fast and hard rule as much as was an indication of what's worked for me and what I've seen work for other people vs what has completely crashed and burned).

Beth,

But when you do... whoo hoo!

I was responding to this:

Problem is, I have apologised for being a douche repeatedly, and she said that she forgives me.

This seemed to me to indicate a continuing pattern of doucheness that was going unresolved. Ergo, my advice. It just isn't going to do anyone any good to continue the pattern, while raising the intensity of the apologies.

a) recovering from a night of hott sexxing after the apology went spectacularly well
b) spending a night in the cells after being caught stabbing a hobo

Jesus, 237 answers?!? I wasn't really expecting to have sparked off this level of debate...

Do you want the long version, or the short one?

(It does, however, all make me think that I never, ever want to be in a relationship ever again.)

Waiting on an update from TISSP now... :-) x-post

For want of a better phrase I somewhat successfully managed to plead my case, and she told me that she just needed some time to get her thoughts together. So I acquiesced to that and left the conversation feeling that I really didn't know what was going on. I expected to know either one way or another, and I was given the one response that didn't fit either of those.

Later, feeling slightly confused about the whole thing, I resolved to just stop thinking about things and let her have the time she wanted. So my housemate suggested we order some food, and sit down with a drink and a film.

About half an hour later, she called me, saying that she was feeling a lot better now, and that she wanted to see me. She came round, and we made up. And now we're happy again.

THE END.

xpost

i just did.

omg are things like that LEGAL??!!!????????????

Hahahahaha

Right! I’ve been sleeping with my housemate (1st mistake), it started as a drunken sexing then after a while she told me she'd like to go out with me. i told her the i didn't want to get serious which she was a little upset about but we carried on with the sexing.

Anyway to cut a long story short, she'd just come out of a 9 year relationship and i didn't want to be a rebound that's why i said no to going out with her, i convinced her that she should have some time on her own and not get into another relationship so soon after leaving another one (2nd mistake) which she has now decided to do.

The bad thing about it now though is over the last month or so I’ve realized that I am actually quite fond of her. We move out of the house in a months time, (the house is going up for sale) after that I doubt I’ll see her at all.

I told her last night how I felt and she said she thought about what I said and it made sense for her.

So what I’ve basically done is convinced someone i like not to give it a go with me.

Not the best move I know.

Not logged out because I don’t know how.

I'd let this one go, if I were you.

on the flowers thing: i was going to chime in to say that it's probably best to not get in a habit where you're expected to present a gift every time you mess up. however, once you've sorted things out and everything is ok, bringing flowers one of the next few times you see her to remind her that you like her and that actually you're a nice guy would be a classy touch.

That would be PIMPIN'.

Although - better still - is to try and treat your partner with enough love and respect that you don't keep upsetting them in the first place.

-- The Ghost of Black Elegance (djperr...), September 29th, 2005 1:24 PM. (Dan Perry) (later) (link)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and ITCHY
-- C J (CJ_The_Unrul...), September 29th, 2005 1:25 PM. (C J) (later) (link)
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It would smell quite pleasant, though.
-- Mädchen (madchen_in_unifor...), September 29th, 2005 1:29 PM. (Madchen) (later) (link)

that's what outkast's gf did.

I do understand that, occasionally, people might like to say they're sorry for their thoughtlessness/bad behaviour by giving their partner some flowers and/or chocolates, but I'd rather that *my* other half made an effort not to be snotty with me in the first place, rather than have to apologise with gifts afterwards. Maybe that's just me, though.

CJ = OTM

I sold it on amazon. I haven't told him I've done this (I hope he doesn't find out and get upset).

Especially as tissp! messed up the last one. It's only fair.

not even flour.

My wife hates that I can't stand the smell of flowers because it means she hardly ever gets them. Heh.

Every post I've made to this thread is about my vague sense of disappointment. Let's send each other secret admirer gifts and feel specialer.

I thought saline was the safer choice...?

Someday, Bissel or whoever, a steam cleaner manufacturer, is going to use this as advertising copy.

Yes, Your Unruliness. Remind me never to have salad over at your house, though.

And after everything you said...

But really, what's the situation? You want to MARRY her and have BABIES? You're not going to see her ever ever again?