friends who always want to have expensive birthday celebrations - C or D

I mean, dinner, yeah, fair enough. But a skiing trip? That sounds really excessive.

friends v&c who are getting married this weekend had a hen party in italy, a stag party in holland or somewhere, a night out drinking in the norfwest where they live and a night out drinking in london where they used to live, so whatever your budget was you could definitely make one of them. this many things would probably be a bit excessive to do every year for your birthday, but you can at least have a night down the pub as well as the main extravaganza event.

am totally down with those of you complaining about people wanting to split the bill when they've been drinking £3 bottled beers and eating tiger prawns and having desserts when you've been quietly figuring out the option you can afford and ordering accordingly... you feel like such a tightarse pointing it out, but when you're living on £45 a week it isn't fair to be expected to spend half of it on someone else's dinner.

The next day, I received my fortnightly dole payment. She went to the bank to get some cash and suddenly realised that her account was empty until payday, which was over a week away. She's barely spoken to me since.

And it becomes more of an issue when certain people are repeat offenders. There are certain people I will no longer go out to dinner with because they are constantly doing this kind of thing. It's not like they're short of money, either. It's just sheer meanness.

Oh, I know that from experience - I remember when I went grocery shopping, having to keep a running total of how much I was spending in my head as I put each item in the basket.

MEN! We must stand together to samsh the enforced hedonism & consumption of stag tyranny

on the other hand, great as my friend is, i dunno if i can stomach a whole week with him and the two other guys that are going. it might be fun but on the other hand... i dunno. hes a friend who ive known for ages, but i feel like im kinda growing apart from in a way, kinda like ive got nothing more to really 'learn' (?) from him or something. not sure what it is exactly. plus i dont wanna go and be thinking about money while forking out for things (if i did go of course, i would have to leave all money conscious thoughts at the airport as holidays where you are thinking about cash are no fun at all).

Twat.

i mean this is weird, it's somebody birthday isn't it? so it kind of really is up to them what they want to do? it's not really about you. but it would be a courtesy to take into account of your friends obviously when organising things, if it is ever possible to accomodate everybody.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, even though I wouldn't ever do that. I realize that if you're on the dole, 3 quid can make a big difference. I was just talking from my POV, I just don't care that much about money, especially when it comes to social gatherings.

Everyone does this - even if it's just ordering a more expensive dish - 'cause they think the group will absorb the cost. But everyone does it so everyone ends up paying big bucks - that's why group meals are always so expensive. It's been scientifically proven!

Honestly, this makes me feel like a freak. Do people really think that way?

The London group spent wisely, sharing bottles of house white and so on. The trustafarian group drank bottles of beer, kept ordering bottles of champagne for the birthday girl and all had at least three courses.

When they were done, but before the bill came, the b'day girl and her friends from home announced that they were off to a club, chucked in about £15 each and left the London friends behind. The total bill, if split evenly between everyone who was there, would have worked out as £34 each, even though one set of people had only spent about £12 each.

But in the end the London friends had to cough up three or four times what they actually spent in order to cover the bill.

We haven't been to the person in question's birthday celebrations since.

yeh but it's not about not being ripped off, it's about just not having that much money in the first place. i can't afford to drink whiskey and eat desserts and i totally don't mind not doing it, but to do it would just push the bill up more and exacerbate the problem.

I am usually pretty cheap otherwise, so no, Kate, you aren't alone there.

But then again, that requires keeping track of what everyone is eating as it's happening, I guess. Argh, This just reminds me of why I *don't* do this any more. I only eat with people who are as honest with me, or else accept beforehand that I'm going to have to pay if the other person is broke.

I don't think it's selfish, if it's only you doing it you think (ok I think) "ah it'll be less then 50p extra on everyone's bill). Failing to carry the thought through is pretty daft though. Really daft. And I still catch myself considering it... Goddamn!

i think if i'm on the dole etc i would avoid eating out altogether unless it really is a really close friend or something. but i'm definitely a cheapskate. (with maybe one extravagant outburst every half a year or so)

i don't think many people actually do think in terms of "omg i'll so lose out if i pick something cheap so let's go expensive", but there's certainly a case for picking what you want to have, as long as it's not stupidly priced (like, a lobster for yourself or something, unless you volunteer to pay your own), and not worry too much about the whole issue (usually the difference is like £2 at the very most??) and definitely not choose something cheap that you otherwise wouldn't have. i mean, it's eating out, it's celebration, it's supposed to be a luxury.

spoiled rich kids are terribly flaky with money (in my experience). they never have to think about it, so they don't, and they stiff people and leave shitty tips. they figure whoever else is at the table will sort it all out.

I still feel uncomfortable taking people out to restaurants when I am not sure if they can pay so I will usually enquire.

The holiday thing starts getting mad. I like to celebrate my birthday in extravagent fashions, but on the whole, as this year it does not cost much.

I was pissed off before they even pulled this little stunt as they spent a good chunk of the evening explaining that they never bought tickets for Glastonbury and always jumped the fence as they "didn't go for the bands."

When I pointed out that they could easily afford a ticket and that it was people with less cash than them who paid for the toilets, car parks, lighting etc etc they got hyper-defensive in a protest-too-much-methinks kind of way.

Pete is otm I think, it's not actually that bad to say "erm I can't really afford this", even though it's a bit embarassing especially if you feel the person is going to say "that's ok I'll cover you". Cos in a way that makes your comment a bit like a request.

Money is a tricky subject though and the more out in the open everything is the better, it festers very easily, this kind of thing.

I can see it from the friends point of view too, cos you know, maybe they want to do something a bit different or whatever and it's their celebration, not that it's anyone's fault if they can't afford it.

Alot of my friends are really loathe to eat any half decent food if we have cause to need to eat prior to a night out, it's quite annoying sometimes cos we earn the same amount of money and it's horrible eating burgers and crap, or worse, nothing at all, before going out for a drink.

Also I always think if they actually went out for dinner more they'd enjoy it, it's good fun.

Then there's the other scenario of friends wanting to go to a really crap or unimaginative (but still pricey) "restaurant" on their birthdays, and that's awkward too.

I don't want my friends spending too much money on my birthday, I want them to spend lots of money "just before".

Now I'm trying to remember what bistromathics was powerful enough to let you calculate...

I agree that making a big fuss can be wearing, but surely there's a happy medium when all concerned are adults and friends?

Why is that different to a vegetarian who thinks they shouldn't have to pay for meat? They're both lifestyle choices, after all.

I must say I don't usually try to pay less on the grounds that veggie options are cheaper. But if I'm struggling with cash I'd damn well expect my friends to value my company enough not to mind if come out anyway but choose cheap options, rather than stay at home.

yeah, I wonder why not?

I mean, honestly. In my experience, people who are repeatedly inconsiderate about bill-splitting often turn out to be inconsiderate about other issues. I mean, see Sunshine's friend above. The long-term bill-stiffer I knew (another trustafarian type conincidentally) ended up pissing off a variety of other people on other issues. It's often symptomatic of a deeper form of selfishness and lack of consideration for other people and other character flaws.

well, it's not a dietary need

And neither is avoiding drink due to religious choices. In fact, surely a vegetarian who choses not to eat meat because they disagree with unecessarily cruel rearing and slaughter of animals is being more logical and worthy of respect than someone who says they won't drink beer because an invisible omnipitent being who nobody can prove exisits told some guy not to do so a thousand years ago?

I'm not a veggie, BTW. I'm just being annoying cos I'm bore at work but can't go home until 10pm.

i still think 'declare if skint' is a good idea though.

My own internal rules about eating out with friends are: 4-6 of us, split the bill according to whatever everyone ate, because it's not too much hassle. Any more people than that and I won't go if I'm not going to eat a starter and have a drink and be prepared to split the bill evenly, because it is hassle.

Although, for all that I sometimes have problems with some of my friends and their money ways, we are pretty good at going out for dinner as a group, and usually people will say that they are going to a certain place for dinner, but if people don't want to do the dinner bit, they can meet at a certain pub afterwards.

As for the trustafarian wankers, I'd have told your mate that they left owing money, you guys had to cover them, and you're now owed the difference and you would like them to pay it, please.

ordering a starter is something you have to check about?!!!? really, seriously, god help you all and praise be that i have dining partners who actually enjoy going out for dinner enough to not ruin it with this kind of shite.

But anyway, I'm not actually talking about that - I'm talking about dealing with people who persistently underpay their share of the bill, or else order excessive amounts of food - often huge bar bills - and then cheerily anounce that we should all split the bill.

x-x-x-post

see what should have happened is more communication in the first place maybe to suggest non-sushi places every now and then.

I'm pretty broke right now and when I was invited to get drinks lately I knew I couldn't afford more than one, so I just told the people flat out before I left the house, uh, I'd love to see you guys but I have like no cash, if you can spot me a few bucks I'll stop by..

This seems like an odd complaint to me. At good restaurants, the vegetarian dishes are made well, with good ingredients and all of that. They're cheaper because portabella and asparagus just happens to be cheaper than steak. I mean, I've never been anywhere where the meat dishes were like roast duck with truffles and the veggie dishes were grilled cheese.

i'm sometimes a little disappointed when i go to veggie-only restaurants, because i love chicken, but i guess it's different as it's just my love of tasty chicken rather than a believe in cruelty and that. i think at the end of the day the policy is differnet from group to group. the host if wise and courteous will choose somewhere that they like but also cater for the majority of the folks.

Gastropub might be the way though, and it solves the other "lets meet somewhere for dinner" problem when there are lots of people: the "everyone is being fashionably late". Let me make it clear here and now, if you've booked a table, there is no being fashionably late in a restaurant.

i think, with a little understanding though, you can find the perfect blend, and thusly become better friends.

And what's that crap about respecting being a muslim but not respecting being a vegetarian? If we're talking about one or the other making more rational sense, being a vegetarian wins every time. (xpost to hello sunshine)

it may surprise you to learn that i'm a pretty generous person.

Generous with other people's money, it seems.

It's difficult.. Personally I think it's better to just choose a less expensive restaurant if it's a consideration for most people, and then just don't worry and get appetizer, drinks, entree, dessert, coffee. I always figure if I'm going to go, to count on having enough to cover all that, because I don't want to be the one sitting there turning down everything extra and it totally ruins my dinner if I have to worry about it. We've never had an issue w/excessive bar bills, though, isn't it kinda crass to have more than a drink or two with dinner? If you need to drink a lot wait 'til we go to a bar for crying out loud!

i'm not even middle-class.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You just posted that to get excelsiored, you rogue :)

Why is being an alcoholic who thinks they shouldn't have to hold back on booze different to a vegetarian who thinks they shouldn't have to pay for meat? They're both lifestyle choices, after all.

http://exhib.internet-academy.org.ge/fine_arts/dolidze/images/pirosmani.jpg

All my friends are poor so we don't often have this problem anyway.

that reminds me. it's nearly christmas dinner season 8(

and why do people have to explain why they aren't eating meat / carbohydrates / drinking alcohol? do they need a reason?

hmmm.

those veggies coming to our meat restaurants, paying for our meals, marrying our wives.

Its the way you tell'em.

xpost

there is no answer :(

True, but I have been to places where you can get a chicken curry with veggies in it and the vegetarian option is basically the same thing but with the chicken left out. Which always seemed thoughtless and unfair to me.

My least favourite kind of extravagant birthday celebration is the one that involves hiring cottages for the weekend and all driving somewhere and hanging out for days on end. I think the original post for this thread pointed out that part of the problem with these trips is not just the money, it's the time as well.

My GF used to work with somone who would go out for after-work drinks with his co-workers, have three or four drinks for three or four rounds, then always, always, leave without buying one himself. Then he'd come out the following week and do exactly the same thing.

He couldn't understand it when everyone started shunning him.

I mean yes perhaps the whole thing about it changing, vis a vis who is getting "screwed", isn't necessarily true for everyone on the thread, because I'm sure there are some very broke people on this thread who never order a drink or more than a main meal because they haven't got money, which is cool and stuff but fuck's sake make it clear to your friends when you GET INVITED, don't quibble at the damn restaurant like motherless children. Chances are if you make it clear to your host that you are having financial problems, they'll offer to spot you or help pay your share!

Though honestly I live in a world where me and my friends are apparently close and trusting enough that when we go out, ONE PERSON will pay and then it's like "yeah, get me next time" instead of tab splitting at ALL.

This doesn't work with people who never offer to pay but why would you hang out with those people??? I mean see xpost about the freeloader rounder.

see there are happy endings

Then again if you have friends like Dan... Ah hell, I would not care either way. I'd probably start up drinking again. ;-)

I agree that quibbling over a couple of bucks is annoying but I am damn well going to quibble when I owe $30-$40 and some greedyguts asks me to kick in $90, especially since we weren't even going out afterwards so there wasn't going to be any reciprical drink buying (and even if we had gone out, any of their drink-buying would have been in service of picking up ass so we would have been out on our own parched oasis).

I am much worse about not buying stuff for myself on my own: I like the fact I am generous when I am out with people as I am usually not at all generous with myself.

My worst experience was prob arranging dinner for a large group of people at a nice Japanese restaurant for a friend's birthday, and through some weird combination of some people deliberately not ordering much to save money, and others not accounting for tax + tip and then putting down cash and leaving early, I must've had to put well over twice what I owed on my credit card.. but I figured I may as well just pay rather than have the end of a special occasion be spent trying to get extra cash out of the last people at the table.

I've only really had one bad experience of this, but it totally landed me in the crap. There was this one stag do, where the guy organising it booked us a small sailing boat to sleep on. Now, I was a student at the time, and flat broke, so would much rather have just crashed on the floor of a BnB room or something. Stupidly I didn't make much of a fuss thinking that it wd be like tens of pounds per head. It wasn't - it was £150, and more importantly, he only even mentioned money at the end of the weekend, at which point it was too late to say anything. I had budgeted about that pounds for entire weekend and as a result had £50 left to live on for the next five weeks. Yeah, I know, I should have checked beforehand if it was that much of a problem, but I honestly had NO IDEA it wd come to anywhere near that much.

x-post yes, it';s always best to sort out the cost thing ahead of time, but sadly this hardly ever seems to happen.

pleasant, i will celebrate wif you.

C'mon down, luna. The Oyster Bar is serving oysters again.

This describes the person I was complaining about upthread to a T. He is no longer in my circle of friends.

Anyway, also - on the "it's not like places have roast duck and then grilled cheese for veggies" comment - that's just not true either. A few years ago, I was taken for a posh meal at a high end restaurant (and I'm not complaining about the bill splitting because someone else picked up the tab, for which I was extremely grateful as I'd never have been able to afford the place) and every single option on the menu was fish - except the veggie option, which was SCRAMBLED EGGS ON TOAST. I kid you not.

OK, this is the exception rather than the rule (well, in London at least, we're not talking about the provinces) but for someone with fish allergies something like that is a minefield. I'm quite careful before I agree to eat somewhere to check that there is a veggie menu (sorry if this seems like nitpicking but it's important to me and my friends) - but the only two noticable exceptions to this in the past five years have both been birthday celebrations where I had no say in the choice of restaurant. But what am I going to do - be the bitch and refuse to go to a friend's birthday? No, I went - even if the second place actually made me sick.

Most group dinners Ive been to thats how its done - you all throw down what you actually owe! It really isnt that hard, surely. Re-review the menu, work it out. Or find yr items on the bill. No one at all in this thread seems to have mentioned this and Im really baffled.

Splitting evenly OTOH should always, I think, be decided upon at the start somehow. I have not very often been at dinners where anyone's buggered off early - though that did happen once (several people appeared to have snuck off witthout leaving ANY money, and so everyone else had to cover about $50 of their eats/drinks; this was an IRC meetup dinner though, so more fool all of us for trusting semi-strangers).

Theres always the set menu option for large groups. That way everyone pays the same, and if you want something special/different then tough, you pay for your own, seperately.

It occurs to me that the trick may be to eat with people you like and trust.

this thread is a tough one. on the one hand, i'm someone that usually (not always, but 90% of the time) get the raw end of the deal as far as group bills go. i don't eat meat, and rarely drink with dinner, so those differences can add up quickly. i don't like to nitpick and cause a stir, but i've noticed that very often the people that say 'let's just split it!' are the ones that have ordered two starters, nibbles (like poppadums), expensive main, and side dishes as well, plus bottles of beer. if you actually look at the difference in price, it's like my meal was roughly £8 for a starter and main, and i'm happy to chuck in a fiver for tip and the 'honor' of being invited to a group meal, whereas they're closer to £30 a head.

so am i actually just supposed to eat that? i end up avoiding eating with one particular couple now after this happened several times, and i just got sick of it. i know it isn't done in an intentional and mean way, but it can be really frustrating to have to subsidize what other people are eating.

i agree with andrew and trayce, it shouldn't be that hard for people to actually think of what they owe, or even better having the restaurant provide separate bills (toby can share his canadian experiences for this).

oddly enough, when these things are birthday meals, the people all for splitting things 'equally' almost always forget to put money in so the birthday person doesn't have to pay, which i figure is a big part of the evening.

Do people who 'only have a coke' feel the same way about buying rounds in pubs?

What I hate is when you go to collect all the money together and someone obviously hasn't put enough in and no-one will own up to it. This doesn't happen with my close friends but has a few times with larger groups.

except v. close friends but, even then, why not?

in montreal it was standard for each diner to be given a separate check, according to what they'd ordered. this worked very well, esp as i was dining with strangers, and was generally actually quicker than splitting would have been.

This is the subtext for this entire thread.

-- RickyT (boyofbadger...), October 18th, 2005 11:29 AM. (RickyT) (later)

Utterly OTM. This ALWAYS happens, and believe me, there are few things that make you seem more of a cunt than saying "um dude, can you give us another £3, you forgot the tip".

I knew there was a reason I had that dream about you driving the minivan with "Adolf Hitler" painted on the side ;P

(I really did!)

in montreal it was standard for each diner to be given a separate check, according to what they'd ordered.

Yes, this seems to be a good system.

That's not a birthday party, that's meeting in a bar.

I go by the Vicar's old rule here. If you're having drinks in a bar, no present. If you want a present you have to throw some kind of party/dinner/brunch thingy.

On my last birthday, I had a walk, lunch in a restaurant, and a pub meet-up. Different people turned up to different bits according to their interests/incomes and everyone (including me, for a change) had a good time!

Aaah, sweet! :-) I'm baffled that this thread created more than 200 replies! As if you need to argue with friends over money. I think it's a bit sad really.