Creativity and obligation

xpost gravel:
i do feel the obligation to be creative, and when i create it's very validating. at the same time, though, i am not constantly inspired and thus can't fulfill this self-assigned obligation all the time; at this point it gets very frustrating so i think i know where you're coming from. i know this doesn't answer any of your questions but just my two cents

I assume that isn't what you mean tho Greg :)

Hence, nanowrimo etc.

I like the story about that note by Joyce's typewriter, "Write! What the hell else are you good for?"

I know the feeling about what seems like a morally wrong choice, though. I've daydreamed about becoming, among other things, a nutritionist, a personal trainer, a drag queen, or biologist, but to think about the time, money and energy invested into the Noble Pursuit of the Arts and all the romanticized bohemian anti-bourgeois jive... well, I've definitely been indoctrinated. It feels like I'd be giving up against the Fight, though what it is I'd be fighting is probably no more than some undergrad Marxian bogeyman.

(many x-posts soon soon)

i'm sitting on my voice degree and constantly bitching about how much i hated music school and people in the opera world, but if i listen to anything classical or there is randomly an opera clip on a tv show i feel guilty, like i'm denying this thing inside me or that i'd actually be doing something (as opposed to my crappy boring office job) that could, perhaps, touch someone or at least be beautiul. so every few weeks i think of going back to singing and doing a masters or at least trying to get some kind of chamber group together, then i say, 'but you'll never make any money and you'll be miserable trying to make something of yourself.'

it's not exactly the same because i'm not creating as much as interpreting, but i feel like it's the same sort of battle - i can't listen to music without feeling like you should be making it, but the practical side of my brain says, 'this shit is bananas.'

i have these crazy ideas about turning this set i did with piano, violin, viola, and cello into some cool performance piece. my roommate is great with visual arts and thinks it'd be fun, but it's so hard to get anyone to actually commit to doing anything.

Yeah, I think the key to that is not worrying about it being bananas. I know lots of people who have jobs they more or less like, in some cases love (in other cases endure), but they also keep the whole creative thing going on the outside of their daily paycheck -- bands, poetry readings, theater troupes, you know, whatever. Once you stop thinking about it as a professional choice -- like, I should be doing the music instead of the office job -- then you free yourself up to do whatever you want with your free time. And sure it's not that easy, and it's always hard to get even two or three people together to do something, but you can do things if you want to. I have major respect, e.g., for my sister, who when she had a baby decided she wasn't going to be only defined as a mom and bought herself a fiddle. The kid's now 6 and she -- by practicing every day when he naps -- has turned herself into an old-time fiddler who can get together and jam with other old-timey music types.

actually, i don't care much for choral groups, mostly because i was forced to sing in chorale for 3 years as part of my degree requirement and our conductor was so terrible. there's something very frustrating about taking 50 voice majors who are training to be soloists, putting them in a room, and telling them to "blend" to the beat of a conductor who couldn't even keep a steady 4/4 pattern.

i think part of why i'm not singing now is that i hate not being the best or in charge... i couldn't stand being in opera choruses because i wanted to go shove the director out of the way and tell everyone how to deliver their roles "correctly"! but, i am kind of a lameass because i don't think i could come up with staging and production i deas on my own, only "fix" others' ideas. not very creative at all!

ugh, i know. they can't fathom that their voices are serving the piece, not the other way around.

i guess the key is to start in small steps, but i often wonder if that would make me horribly frustrated and give it up all over!

(in case it's not painfully obvious, i'm really good at being my worst enemy!)

ugh, i know. they can't fathom that their voices are serving the piece, not the other way around.

-- bird-person-person (theundergroundhom...), November 7th, 2005. (Jody Beth Rosen) (link)

yes, there's that. i once remember yelling at our choir over a primadonna outbreak when we were singing student compositions - one of which was completely amazing and in polish or something and meant to sound like ice. they just could not stand that they were being told to sing straight tone and i ended up yelling at all of them that they were being selfish and this guy had put a lot into writing this piece and if they'd all just get over themselves they'd realize how beautiful it was, and didn't we owe him just one good recording?!

but, there's also the fact that we were, in fact, training to be soloists, and it's often dangerous to the voice to constrain it when in your lessons, your teacher is trying to get you to sing freely and naturally. humorously, the choir of non-voice majors sounded 10 times better than we did!

(sorry for the boring thread derail)

I'm thinking like, graphic artists, paid writers - maybe not fiction ones, but journos.

I think maybe I was more thinking "forced" in the sense, you are doing something you dont really want to/wouldnt otherwise/its just a job.

Me, I don't think I'll ever be truly happy until I've written something close to what's in my head. I'd rather play games all day, but I've been nagging at myself since childhood. The older I get, the more afraid I am that I'll have to reconcile myself to the possibility that I don't got what it takes. And I mean that in terms of judging myself, not any outward token of success.

Also, there are so many crappy novels in the world already, and there are also so many great novels, that I wouldn't like to add something mediocre or crappy to the pile.

Then again, it would add to the sum of literary creativity in the world, which might be a good thing, even if it lowered the average standard. No wait, that would be a bad thing.

In another way it's much easier, because you can concentrate on technique and craft without fussing about inspiration.

I'm still thinking about this.

I like that answer, Austin :) That makes me feel better about working for a wage on this kind of thing.

I think the respect for technique and craft is dying, and that makes me sad. There is a Violinieri store near where I used to work - they make violins (and possibly other stringed things). This old bearded guy just sits in the window carving away at wood. I imagine their work fetches impressive money. I'm so impressed by stuff like that.

And then typically I can sometimes be halfway through a project and I start to question myself as to 'why' I'm doing this and then the toys get thrown out of the cot as I find no reason whatsoever.

WRT my own art, it's never a sense of obligation, more a compulsion. I know it's a cliche, to say, "I don't write/draw/paint/make music because I *want* to... I do it because I MUST!!!" but that really is the way that I feel. I've explained before that I feel art bears the same relation to life as shitting does to eating. It's not really something I have much of a choice about doing.

But there are artforms that, although I'm perfectly happy to enjoy "consuming" (what a horrible word) I know that I could never do myself. So why try? I'd rather leave things like architecture, typography, cooking, to experts and enjoy their creativity than bash out poor attempts myself. You can enjoy that kind of art without feeling the obligation to try it yourself. One should only really create art if you enjoy it/are good at it.

Though that last qualification opens up a whole nother kettle of fish. Should one only create art if you're good at it? Why not do something you enjoy, even if you're subjectively "rubbish" at it? It's for your enjoyment, not for others'. Though that contradicts my belief about music - that the important art of music is the process of the listener getting some emotional or aesthetic content out of it, not the input of the songwriter/performer.

Also, is there such a thing as a "natural talent"? I know it's old fashioned and possibly politically incorrect, but I'm inclined to believe that there is.

sensible job... spare time... lol... if only.

I don't think she is ever going to be able to ever aquire any kind of songcraft, no matter how hard she tries. And it is unreasonable to expect her to.

Craft is about honing and toning and devotion - but I do think that with a lot of art, it is a question that some people are just never going to be *able* to achieve that level of craft. And it's unrealist not to mention unfair to expect them to.

For instance, someone who picks up a guitar for the first time in their life (and for arguments sake lets say they're in their later years rather than a sponge brained child) they get taught maybe a few notes from, say, their favourite song. It excites them. Maybe they have no other hobbie or front running skill to conflict with. So in that one moment their brain is hooked on being dedicated on musical notation (in a virtual sense).

Rather than my original sentence meaning devotion as in 'getting up off the couch to go to rehearsal'.

Perhaps people like your mum just don't get it, like a lot of people will never get 'maths' not because they aren't clever enough but due to more political sidings happening in their head. They just don't want to, or maybe see no point. They might never realise this is the cause as it's just too an acute idea?

I might have waffled to the point of being completely misunderstandable there.

x-post WRT language, it is because the brain is impressionable at young ages to recognise and differentiate between certain sounds involved with human speech. As one gets older, the brain loses this facility.

Perhaps similar things happen with regard to the neural pathways of those who are pushed to become musical prodigies. I don't know.

I'm usually filthy with creative impulses but I think they stem more from a need to be DOING and to see the work of my hands take shape, which I mostly express in crafts and small acts that are more about contributing to some kind of overall good, solving problems and making friends and going through the world in a certain way -- I suppose world-building wouldn't be an inappropriate term. It's not at all like the need to write or a burning passion for scholarship or anything so undeniable.

Oh gah, I know there's more but I have to get going. Quick, someone else say something to jog my memory.

I always enjoy the process, I get depressed if I'm not creating something - even though most people never see/hear what I produce, and if they do, they're often indifferent, but that really doesn't matter.

the desire is the easy part.

the actual making and/or attracting attention to what you've made seems to be the ridiculously difficult and/or nauseating part.

m.

I guess years of frustration and watching people more talented than I am fail to make an impact made an impression on me. Now I'm more interested in getting myself into a financial position where I can devote a room in my future house to a studio, and just make music that I like. Who knows - maybe after I die my future wife will take my recordings and sell them to more capable musicians, or maybe even just preserve them as a family heirloom. Either thing is ok with me.

otm!
also, i find that watching people less talented than i make an impact made quite an impression -- give up! it's all politics! you'll never get anywhere because you don't kiss enough ass!

i've basically resigned myself to making music i can enjoy as well. just to DO it so that there's some beauty in in my life i can enjoy. i think it's therapeutic, even if no one else gives a shit.

most of the time success does nothing but take you away from the actual activity you enjoyed in the first place.
m.

I think that's one way of putting it that doesn't depend on religion to supply the obligation, for whatever that's worth. And I don't think this sentiment is at all specific to artists, by the way. It's the best argument against suicide I can imagine, although I suppose at some point it's like people complaining about students of color being asked to MINGLE MORE for the edification of the rest of the student body -- what, I should suffer the daily pain of depression or mental illness because the WORLD MIGHT BENEFIT? -- but maybe it's a good antidote for thinking no one cares, that you have no impact and might as well not exist.

Something I'm surprised no-one has talked about is the gap between "creativity" which is I guess everyone would agree is pretty great and the "obligation" to actually transmit it to others, to translate it into something that can float in Laurel's tributaried river...

For instance when I was writing my dissertation, the last four weeks of researching it were easily the happiest weeks of my life - every waking moment felt inspired and liquid with the connections I could sense and sense were special, I wanted to share that feeling with everybody, to make a thing out of my thoughts that worked on others as the best criticism I'd read worked on me. The week I spent actually writing it, though, felt painful painful painful - not boring but frustrating, getting fifty or sixty words down per hour spent toiling that came even 75% close to the shape of the thought I wanted to send out.

On the other hand, musician friend upthread insists that the fusage (I am paraphrasing her neat metaphor horribly) *between* what's in her head and the blank page or notesheet is a totally pleasurable one, for her...

I am thinking of a little comic strip I saw tacked up in an anarchist bookstore in Seattle, two women talking in a coffeeshop (paraphrase obv obv):

A: So after the move I have a lot more responsibilty, I'm in charge of the Holbook account now, Michael says if I handle it well I might even get promoted again! Say, what do you do now, anyway?

B: I make jewellery with my friends, and paint. Sometimes I make jam, or go for long walks, or play with my lovely puppy Charlie.

A: But those are your hobbies! What do you do?

B: No, those are what I do. I work as a waitress. What do you do?

A: *cries*

Okay so obviously there is a lot more going on here, but a pretty obvious subtext of this is that being satisfied and passionate about your job is a pale displacement of being satisfied about other artsy/ crafty/ self-expressiony things. Is this true? For most people? For you? I think this sort of thing is what I was thinking of when I chose the word "obligation".

A: *cries*

I don't think that these two viewpoints are mutually incompatible. I mean, my conversation with my friends goes more like:

F: So after the move I have a lot more responsibilty, I'm in charge of the Holbook account now, Michael says if I handle it well I might even get promoted again! Say, what do you do now, anyway?

K: I make music with my friends, and compose. Sometimes I draw cartoons, or go for long walks, or play with my lovely guitar Danny Lectro.

F: But those are your hobbies! What do you do?

K: No, those are what I do. I work as a data analyst. What do you do?

F: *cries*

...however, it does mean that I have missed out on other parts of life, like long term relationships, children, etc. never having had any money or security, etc. It's a question of priorities and sacrifices. ::shrugs:: I always got told the story of the ant and the grasshopper, and I feel guilty for having fiddled away the summer and now my old age is coming I've got no savings, no family, and I'm rushing to buy a house before it's too late.

Kate is yr ability to enjoy architecture without thinking "maybe I shld go to architecture school" (something I completely lack) derived from the fact that you already have music, or something you developed independently?

I did at one point try to go to architecture school. But I faced opposition from my family (I would have gone a lot earlier, but was told by a (jealous) brother that I would end up designing doorknobs) and music was a more... immediate option. I still love architecture and enjoy experiencing good examples of it, and will seek it out as an artform to be enjoyed - but I lack the discipline to have done it as a designer rather than consumer.

So I usually ask "do you mean, what do I do for a living, or what do I actually *do*?"

Because if you asked me, "what do you do for a living?" I'd say I was a data analyst, but if you asked me "what do you do" (meaning in general) I'd say I was a composer.

But that comes down to self identity.

Also, what do I know, I don't profess to have any artistic leanings at all, but your depiction of the delight in the research and the toil of the writing rings true to me -- of COURSE that's how it would be! The pondering wasn't work, per se, ideas were just percolating and sliding around, maybe sticking to each other & making connections, that was the fun part. It's real work to write it back down, to sort of trap the ideas & make them take a more permanent shape than they were doing in your head and know that you have to get it right because it's ink on paper!

Right now I'm just, like: fill the world with creative stuff no matter what! Make noize not war! The internet is very helpful in this get-it-out-of-your-head direction, e.g., www.lulu.com, writeboard.com, all kinds of local on-line stores that get people's art/craft into the world. Sure, this means there will be more "bad" art too, but whatever, it allows for more choice - we all like what we like and with more art out there we might find we like more than we thought we did. Progress, "improvement", inspiration happens this way. neat.

Usually if I see or hear about someone doing something deemed creative in the artistic sense, I start comparing what they do to what I do and wonder if I should be more like them, do what they do - usually because I feel I'm under-achieving based on the standards I set myself. Or if I don't like what they're doing I criticise it. It's possible that in recent years the critic in me may have impeded the creator/artist in me, not that the two are mutually exclusive - there's a certain negative connotation to the former though wrt cynicism perhaps. Like most people who feel this way about creating or being creative there's a heady mix of confidence or indeed arrogance about one's own ability/potential and insecurity that other people are doing better and more often, leading to much self-doubt and uncertainty as to what to do next. These two attitudes conflict and flipflop by the minute, which gets in the way of actually creating anything worthwhile too often. Too much talk too little action, fear of both failure AND success, oh the madness.

good thread. i really feel this obligation, all the time. moreso now i'm out of work as it feels there is so much time. one of my best friends is an actor and i've been to a few of his film launches lately, and you talk to people and it's that atmosphere wherein everyone is trying to deduce how valuable each other's artistic currency is or whatever, and i find myself thinking "that idea sounds rubbish, why don't i do something better?"

i mean....the more i think about it the more i think it'd be better to have no inner critic about art, then you could make things free from inhibitions, instead of starting something then getting bogged down in your own cynicism.

anyone have tips for how to satisfy creative urges in a manageable or easy way? so far i've decided, while i'm unemployed, to go running regularly (healthy body healthy mind, that's going well), to join a book club, and to try my best to get involved in some amateur drama.

do other creative things come from this? if i want to write, where is a good medium to start? am i wrong to think short stories are an easier way to create something fun?

are there jokey exercises you can do to test your creative writing skills?

or is it all just a case of jumping into big creative projects headlong?

My wife and daughter and I are all equally talented writers, I think, but I don't feel any drive to create. The drive to do something creative with their talents seems to torture them so much of the time, and I just sit back and think "jeez, better you than me." I'm perfectly happy knowing how to craft a sentence without thinking I need to shape it into artwork. Functionality is plenty.

There was an interesting interview with Jaime Hernandez recently where he said that he didn't feel the tortuous artistic compulsion to create comics, but Gilbert does.

when i hit 30 i had a long period -- which i still might be in, actually -- where i was kind of constantly freaking out in a "time's a wasting/get on the ball" sense, re. creative endeavors. (l.e., i'm 30 and i still haven't really done what i want to creatively and i've wasted all this blah blah time writing record reviews and i've been freelancing or otherwise had all this time to work on a big project and did nothing at all and etc.) it can get to be a real recursive-thinking headfuck, to the point where you can't enjoy *anything* because when you're watching a baseball game or going for a walk or playing tetris or hanging out with your friends or whatthefuckever you're constantly thinking "I SHOULD BE WORKING (ON THE THING WHICH IS NOT MAKING ME ANY MONEY) (YET) (HOPEFULLY, BUT THAT'S NOT REALLY THE POINT)."

basically all i've learned during this time is four things: 1.) don't beat yourself up if you're not doing anything, either in the short run (you're watching tv instead of working on yr current project) or in the long run (you're not working on any projects at all). 2.) the only way anything actually gets done, from a short story to goddamned gravity's rainbow, is to sit down, focus, and do it (so you can't sit around not doing anything forever unless you want another ten years to go by, there is work involved, and it *is* work, not a hobby). 3.) there's absolutely nothing wrong with treating creative endeavors as a hobby/therapy/something to give yourself a personal moment of elation, and there's *also* nothing wrong with not doing any "creative" goddamned thing in your life if you've got other outlets that give your life some shape/meaning/satisfaction. 4.) despite the relentless focus on people doing their "best work when they're young," this is often bullshit (most especially when it comes to writing) and life is long (that doesn't mean, again, you can sit on your ass, either).

but i guess my real advice, lg, is that you should start small (like, say, a short story) and make sure you *finish it*. just keep on pushing. don't think about any audience outside of you, the possible reception when you show it to other people, any potential venue for it, etc. just keep the goal focused on reaching the last word. the first short story that i actually *finished* in years, which i finished some time in late 2008, gave me a sense of satisfaction like nothing i'd written in years and years, which was almost wholly related to seeing it through. (it turned out to be total garbage, as i realized a few weeks later when i took it out to review it, but that's not the point.) it jump-started me in a way, and life has kinda intervened dramatically in the last few months, which means i'm getting less done, but i do feel re-focused simply on completion, rather than any of the inner critic stuff you're talking about that's like a ticket to instantly getting derailed and *not* finishing.

the other thing i've learned is that if you do feel this compulsion, to the point where you realize it's a compulsion and thinking about it in meta-terms is taking up some (or a lot) of your time, it's better to not try and ignore it and go off and be happy in your work or take up bird watching or whatever, you better try and do something with it (something other than the recursive thinking "why am i like this?" stuff), because it's in there, which means it's gonna have to be dealt with sooner or later.

I find that most of my problem these days is deciding, "What now?" I write fiction all the time yet have made only the most desultory attempts to send them out. And I'm not sure where this paralysis comes from – never had trouble pitching reviews, essays, and other journalism, all of which was stuff I wasn't as 'serious' about as fiction.

but i guess my real advice, lg, is that you should start small (like, say, a short story) and make sure you *finish it*. just keep on pushing. don't think about any audience outside of you, the possible reception when you show it to other people, any potential venue for it, etc. just keep the goal focused on reaching the last word

Echoing this. It was part of what drove me to do the NaNoWriMo stuff for a few years there (and having now done it I may yet do something more with it down the way but I think I'm all good for now) -- in the present time, I've found a little bit of enforced structure helps establish a pattern that's easy to follow once you're off and running. I'm thinking of my Not Just the Ticket posts but also the now weekly work I'm doing over at Foxy Digitalis and the OC Weekly, not to mention the AMG -- but in all three of those latter cases there's no overarching scope where NJTT does have one, however personally defined, and has been an interesting exercise for me in memory and autobiography.

Also I've got two major pieces I'm working on that are very much long term, involving a lot of interviewing -- one of which is essentially just a private pursuit which may not get accepted for formal publication, but the story is so interesting that I really want to see it through. It's a side pursuit, fitfully pursued at times, but I have a hunch the end result will be worth it -- it may not be an obsessive 'argh I must complete this now or I am wasting time' impulse but it doesn't have to be that.

yeah this is the thing. i really enjoyed my last job, it was brilliant, great people and i did enjoy the work. but as i apply for new jobs, and try to get back into tv, where it's v competitive and you have to really sell yourself in interviews. i find myself thinking "why am i pretending to want this more than anything else in the world?"

and it's like yeah, maybe the last job was good, but i can't keep fooling myself that i don't want to or don't still hope and i guess believe that i can create something really good. and then part of me thinks back to writing about music and djing and how that went well for a long time but that too was a postponement or a way out of genuinely trying to make something and to get a rounded sense of what you can make or create in the world.

great advice tho, thanks. i hear you on the not being able to enjoy things...i constantly beat myself up for a day of doing nothing. even today when i was out till 4am and i'm choking with a cold, i'm like "oh i shouldn't watch a film". when actually i am starting, hopefully, to realise that a better way to live is to have my day planned so that watching a film or even playing videogames is just one of a number of activities which all complement each other.

but yeah saying and doing obv a big difference and a challenge...

i dont really have a creative bone in my body anymore. I used to play guitar...now i play video games and change diapers. I should pick up my guitar again

I don't think I've even tried for most of the last decade, and yet still the guilt nags away.

strongohulkingtonsghost, thanks for those posts, they are full of very good advice!

alfred, i think it's all the stuff after the dash in your last sentence for me! being almost too serious about it. writing a review or interviewing someone, there's some distance there, whereas the fiction is stuff is "me" and nobody likes to be told "me" sucks by someone running a lit mag or a college program. plus i've somehow managed to make a half-assed career out of journalism/crit, which both a.) eats up a lot of time and b.) means i don't really have to start over again in a whole new area (blindly subbing stuff, working up through the ranks). but eventually you gotta shit or split. either it's for the trunk (which again, hey, totally fine!) or you want people to see it.

yeah nv hear you, i wish i could stop feeling guilty about things, i can't even cook fucking dinner without thinking "oh should i have had a green vegetable with this", or feeling guilty about how much it cost! it's like wtf, if you've done it it's done, NO GUILT. i am sure some people don't give a second thought about anything they do.

x-post abbboottt ooooottttmmmm

re: internal critic - I've never managed to completely get rid of mine, but at least I've been able to get the bastard to shut up while I'm working on something. Of course once it's complete, internal critic starts in with "OMGWTF this is SHIT!!!" but after a while he shuts up again.

i hear you on the not being able to enjoy things...i constantly beat myself up for a day of doing nothing.

This reminds me of grad school -- and why I left. An often ugly state of mind to be in.

hands up, how many are you are catholic?

lol joeks (but actually probably not).

WD: reads thread *cries*

Ha I was just thinking last night that a grounding in Catholicism would have let me deal with these feelings better.

fun trick I recently learned which I plan to use to catapult me to Nanowrimo success: apparently Hunter S. Thompson typed out all of The Great Gatsby before he wrote anything of his own, as 'preparation'. I like this idea so I'm gonna try doing it with The Crying of Lot 49 over the next week or so -- even if I don't absorb any of the stylistic wonderfulness, at least I'll have some idea of how much 'work' (i.e. actual typing) is involved in a whole novel!

my problem is that, left to my own devices, i seem quite content to let things remain uncreated if my gut tells me i could bring them into existence, were i so inclined. at least i think it's a problem, because logically i know that all these potential "things" really don't have the value that i somehow assign them. they are literally nothing to anyone else but me, but that's good enough? makes me feel like an ass.

here's where i come out and totally contradict myself and say i think "creativity as a vocation instead of an avocation" is a totally unsustainable concept our culture has fixated on in certain pretty damaging ways over the last 50, 60 years to greater or lesser degrees. i went to a high school where hundreds of kids were funneled into arts programs and told they could be special snowflakes and even make a career of it and that is so clearly not the case (and wasn't the case even before the bottom dropped out of the creative economy) that i am wondering if my graduating class should be suing for false advertising.

(that's hardly a new idea, but when i think about how many of us [including me!] made it to second or third level painting classes in high school despite having NO TALENT WHATSOEVER instead of being pointed in the direction of something more, i dunno, potentially remunerative and that wouldn't crush our souls when we came to the zilch talent realization a few years later, it's like you fucking hippie-era teachers.)

cosign, but would like to add: "talent" is overrated (though obviously necessary if yr reaching for the brass ring); creativity is a learned skill; and everyone should pick up at least a little of it. it's like, I don't even wanna talk to somebody who hasn't written a poem at some point in their life, y'know? and I think if all the poems I read were ones written by the ordinary people I see around me everyday, and poetry (you can substitute any other art here, obv) was just something woven into the fabric of normal social life... I would be a lot less cynical about it!

xpost

not that i think kids should be discouraged from finding art-outlets at all! just that the idea of the sunday painter has kind taken an unfair beating over the last few decades.

Wallace Stevens to thread.

it'd be good if people talked about creativity in schools...i guess as a kid you just don't care if you're being creative or not, or can't quite divide your life into creative/non creative.

totally, as a kid there was no more pressure or anxiety associated with playing music or writing than there was with playing video games.

Kidding aside, Stevens actually has been a sort of inspiration over the years: I love the idea that he genuinely loved his white collar job and composed poetry while walking home.

what about the anxiety where you believe you're capable of creating great things and that you're constantly falling below your potential (thx parentz)

Just keep creating them.

if it helps, 99 % of artists are clueless as to what constitutes their best work.

^^^

And what becomes most popular is often out of your control. For instance, the number one hit on my blog after all this time? This entry. I consistently get fifty or so hits on it per day at the least, often much more. Search 'carrot greens' in Google to see where it ranks.

great thread btw. a few months ago i finished my first album, and the only way i did it was to make "getting it done" the top priority. i said ok, you're not going to worry about gear you don't have, or how other people make records, just set a deadline, throw up some mics and finish something. and sure, there are things that could have been recorded or mixed much better, but i'm much happier to be working on new stuff (with all the experience & knowledge i got from having finished a project) than to still be futzing with those old tracks.

and of course now that i flipped the switch and started working again, i feel like i should be working on it all the fucking time. but i'm also realizing that i'm only really productive/creative for about two hours at a time, and then i just sit there playing things back over and over again. so it's ok to work and then play video games or watch a show with my girlfriend, as long as there's some consistent work habits happening.

I actually think that this thing whereby people are pushed into the idea of writing or drawing or making music is something YOU HAVE TO MAKE MONEY FROM as opposed to something you do for fun, or for self expression, or to let off pressure, or to have a good time with your mates is actually incredibly damaging to a lot of people.

(And this is both sides of this pressure - both the "you are so talented, you HAVE to make something of it" and the "you will never make any money from this foolishness, quit and go study law or medicine or something useful" aspects of the same belief.)

But when I start to think about that, it gets tangled up in ideas about art and commerce and "just wanting to get paid for what I do" because no one expects you to wash dishes or harvest potatoes or program databases for free, yet people are expected to do the creative stuff for free, within creative industries. But that's the thing - someone is making a lot of money out of the idea that Culture (the stories you read/watch, the music you hear, the pictures on the wall) are something that you should not bother doing unless you are Talented with a capital T and if you are not Talented, you should buy one from someone who is.

But I really can't seem to string any of these thoughts together into a coherent thought about why one shouldn't feel *obligated* to be creative, but more that, if you enjoy your creativity as an activity, you should be encouraged to explore it for the simple joy of doing it.

now that i'm not in a band or performing music anymore, my motivation to do music stuff is probably 50/50 because it's fun and because I feel obligated/guilty.

but I can go a week or two without doing anything music-related - i jammed with friends almost two weeks ago and still haven't taken my guitar back out of its case

I've actually settled into a not that busy mode for the moment, I ended up writing so much stuff in advance these last few days I've done little each night after dinner but relax and listen to music and/or read. A handy recharge that gets you thinking about other things without the pressure to write about them, in my case.

people assuming you'll do creative work for free can be annoying, but not nearly as annoying as people acting entitled like they're entitled to getting paid because they're creative.

they are both kind of equally annoying. but then i wrestle with the whole "how much do i get to complain considering i get to do THIS for a living" thing about every 15 minutes.

(on the other hand, aside from [quite a lot of] writing, there's very little "creative" about my job.)

and there are situations where both are perfectly reasonable, of course. for the latter, i'm thinking of people who think that they shouldn't have to work a day job just because they're in a band, and that this is a reasonable expectation.

oh well yeah i mean entitlement...it's the american post-boomer way.

this whole thread is first world problems i guess

this whole thread is first world problems i guess

― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, October 22, 2010 10:30 AM (1 minute ago)

so?

actually it's all good because in 20 years when the planet's finally shit the bed for good and we're defending our cliff-dwellings from other tribes so they don't get our cans of lima beans, we can go back telling stories around the fire and the whole thing'll be moot.

several months ago i went to an art event about a "just arts economy" with a bunch of recent MFA grads from a relatively prestigious art school, and the gist of it was, "why don't we get paid as much for our work, as non-creative people do?" There were a lot of utopian thinkers in the audience, so when I and my friend who has been out of art school for over a decade who currently works as a financial planner brought up "supply and demand" - well, we had a bit of a "crazy pills" moment when the MFA utopians adamantly denied its existence. I got irately called "wrong!" by a Marxist art history professor when I suggested that a lot of people do creative work for fun.

The comment about the Sunday painter upthread is totally otm - and i think too many people nowadays are in denial that really they are the equivalent of Sunday painters, and that is nothing to be embarrassed by.

As they say, fish got to fly and birds got to swim. Or something like that. If you genuinely feel impelled to create, you'll create, depending on the strength of the impulse.

Your only true obligation is to be a reasonably decent, good human being.

I clearly recall that day in 1972 when I was 17 and I opened a letter from the good folks who run the National Merit Scholarship hoohah, informing me that not only was I in the 99th percentile of test takers and therefore might possibly get some money if I played my cards right (I never got any), but also informing me that my fabulous talents obliged me to become a prominent leader or a slambang scientist, basically a cerebral ox who would pull the USA oxcart to its destined greatness.

I just as clearly recall my reaction to this information: fuck you, NMSAT asshats, I'm not obliged to be anyone's ox.

haha this is like precisely the opposite of the "pay me to be creative" mindset but i love when writers say shit like this and mean it:

RICHARD POWERS

That was a Saturday. On Monday I went in to my job and gave two weeks notice and started working on Three Farmers.

INTERVIEWER

What did you do for money?

POWERS

I had been working doing computer operations for a credit union. It was a terrific time to be a programmer because there was so much demand that you could make a living as a freelancer. You could pick up a six-week job, build a war chest, go write, and after a few months come crawling back out and look for another short-term job. Once I worked for an exiled Spanish prince. He was the grandson of the old king before Spain’s civil war, which I guess made him a cousin to Juan Carlos. He had been in line to head the restoration, and when it went against him he ended up in the United States as a trader. Here was this socialist royal trying to find out ways of building options spreads. So I wrote one of the very first real-time options-hedge trading programs.

INTERVIEWER

You should have stayed with it. You might have been a billionaire by now.

POWERS

I had a book to write.

YOU TELL 'EM, RICH

If you genuinely feel impelled to create, you'll create, depending on the strength of the impulse.

I think a lot of the anxiety people feel, or at least I do/did, is whether the impulse is strong enough.

The way I look at it, you can't control the impulse, so don't worry over it. There are an infinite number of ways to go to hell and you'll always find one of them to your liking.

this whole thread is first world problems i guess

― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, October 22, 2010 10:30 AM (1 minute ago)

so?

so nothing? my first world problems are very important to me, clearly.

but i do go back and forth between albini-esque "making music is not a special thing, just regular stuff that people do" thoughts and the more darni3lle-esqe "music is magical and sacred, that's why we care about it so much, so don't take it for granted".

Albini is a dick.

okay.

sorry the "first world problems" thing bugs the shit out of me, unless it's in the context of a discussion about global politics where third world problems are at issue or part of the discussion. It just seems unnecessarily self-deprecating.

i think it's healthy to keep in mind that as much as i might obsess my creative frustrations/challenges/successes, it's not really that important in the grand scheme of things.

Albini is a dick.

― sarahel, Friday, October 22, 2010 12:59 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

bullshit.

"it's not really that important in the grand scheme of things" = escape hatch

not worth arguing about m@tt - i'm just basing it on 2nd hand info

yeah, his whole thing is basically "don't be a dick", as i understand it. and i respect people who are totally committed to their artistic pursuits without being a dick about it.

yeah, his whole thing is basically "don't be a dick", as i understand it.

if it is, then he must make an exception for message board posts

You'd be very surprised to know how much that may seem small at first glance actually does matter in the grand scheme of things.

if it is, then he must make an exception for message board posts

Who doesn't?

I mean, look at here!

could we not turn this into an ilm thread

could we not turn this into an ilm thread

― strongohulkingtonsghost, Friday, October 22, 2010 11:14 AM (13 seconds ago)

^^^

yeah, his whole thing is basically "don't be a dick", as i understand it.

if it is, then he must make an exception for message board posts

― sarahel, Friday, October 22, 2010 1:09 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

if you're talking about the electrical audio board, most of those ppl deserve way worse that what they get

haha sarah1 since when are you one for staying on topic?

honestly - i think it's a bit of both - it is something that "regular" people do that is also magical and awesome.

this is what i am saying

oh ok - i thought you were posing it as some kind of dichotomy.

I don't understand why we can't have both Albini's & Darnielle's POV that Music is special and magic but making it is just a thing that ordinary folks do. These view points are not that incompatible from where I'm standing.

But then again, I'm a "person who gots to do it" & sees something special about DOING it but nothing special about being a person who does it.

X-posts stupid iPhone typing = slow.

I agree that those points of view are not incompatible.

I clearly recall that day in 1972 when I was 17 and I opened a letter from the good folks who run the National Merit Scholarship hoohah, informing me that not only was I in the 99th percentile of test takers and therefore might possibly get some money if I played my cards right (I never got any), but also informing me that my fabulous talents obliged me to become a prominent leader or a slambang scientist, basically a cerebral ox who would pull the USA oxcart to its destined greatness.

I just as clearly recall my reaction to this information: fuck you, NMSAT asshats, I'm not obliged to be anyone's ox.

didn't mean to make it seem like they're mutually exclusive viewpoints, just that i think them at different times, depending on if i need motivation or if i feel like i'm getting too caught up/consumed by it. it's not a good thing to tie your self-esteem to your creative output btw, but sometimes hard not to.

I don't understand why we can't have both Albini's & Darnielle's POV that Music is special and magic but making it is just a thing that ordinary folks do.

After the leaves have fallen, we return
To a plain sense of things. It is as if
We had come to an end of the imagination,
Inanimate in an inert savoir.

It is difficult even to choose the adjective
For this blank cold, this sadness without cause.
The great structure has become a minor house.
No turban walks across the lessened floors.

The greenhouse never so badly needed paint.
The chimney is fifty years old and slants to one side.
A fantastic effort has failed, a repetition
In a repetitiousness of men and flies.

Yet the absence of the imagination had
Itself to be imagined. The great pond,
The plain sense of it, without reflections, leaves,
Mud, water like dirty glass, expressing silence

Of a sort, silence of a rat come out to see,
The great pond and its waste of the lilies, all this
Had to be imagined as an inevitable knowledge,
Required, as necessity requires.

here's the point in all this meta-malarkey when i always think about going back to college for social work or joining the missionaries or something.

I can't go on. I'll go on.

me: "no, really, i mean it this time. shape up and devote my time to helping the planet."
brain: "shut up. you and i both know you're going to keep drinking beer and writing horror short stories."

aw guys, this is a good thread, but i have to go practice blast beats for an hour.

bsnowy, I see your quote and raise you:

Yet I have met people who have never said to life, "Quiet!", who have never said to death, "Go away!" Almost always women, beautiful creatures. Men are assaulted by terror, the night breaks through them, they see their plans annihilated, their work turned to dust. They who were so important, who wanted to create the world, are dumbfounded; everything crumbles.

see guys this is why you should make art: so people on the internet have something to dork out about together

keep drinking beer

ha this is such a factor.

If you genuinely feel impelled to create, you'll create, depending on the strength of the impulse.

see i sort of disagree, it's like if you said "if you genuinely feel impelled to exercise, you'll exercise" or something. yes the will and desire is important but you have to find ways of implementing things or changing your life so that you make it easier to do things that are difficult. as much as it's great to be content with yourself, i do feel that it's okay to want to improve too.

was thinking about this thread in the shower and i think a huge reason i want to create is that i can't actually communicate with more than a handful of people beyond making joke after joke. hence when i have flatmates or something where i'm forced to spend time with people i become ultra quiet/shy.

I have yet to find that being more creative, in the sense of creating art, causes one to improve as a human being. It may give one's better nature a chance to express itself, or it may just elevate one's obsessions to the point of worship. We all have to puzzle these things out. Art is just one avenue for possibly accomplishing this, but not to a certainty.

What do you think causes one to improve, if anything? And if nothing, what's the point in doing anything, or what makes someone a good human being (given you said that's what you believe we should strive for!)

self-knowledge re. how to be a good person is one thing but i'm coming to believe that putting it into practice is pretty much the great project of human adult life.

that and beer.

Engage with what is before you. Don't stop thinking or feeling. When you are unhappy, look for a better path. When you are happy, be grateful. Be patient always. Try to solve more problems than you cause. Be quick to forgive and compassionate with everyone, including yourself. That causes one to improve as a human being.

sounds so easy in general terms...

xp that and beer

interesting topic, wish I had time to read it all

my general philosophy is quit whining and just f'kn do it

creating art is not a very social pursuit imo...when friends of mine are really getting some serious work done, they can be pretty hard to interface with as human beings. i know the same thing is true for me, it takes some decompression time before i can turn off that part of my brain and honestly focus on someone else.

(beer helps)

Sure it's not easy. You want easy, go have a snack. But then, making art isn't necessarily easy, either. I'm just saying art isn't some panacea that makes your life better, however hard or easy that art might be. Art is just the externalization of certain thoughts you have.

Sure, I wasn't disagreeing as such by pointing out it's not easy, more stating the obvious minus an exclamation mark!

Baking a cake or knitting a scarf is creative.

cooking is v creative...one of the most enjoyable pursuits!