least gentrified areas of manhattan?

So what, if any, Manhattan streets does Washington Heights correspond to?

Washington Heights is on the high ridge that rises steeply north of the narrow valley that carries 125th Street to the former ferry landing on the Hudson River. Though the neighborhood was once considered to run as far south as 125th Street, modern usage defines the neighborhood as running north from 155th Street to Inwood. At the northern end of Washington Heights, near Fort Washingon Avenue and 183rd Street in Bennett Park is a plaque marking Manhattan's highest natural elevation. Manhattan is connected to Fort Lee, New Jersey via the George Washington Bridge. To the east across the Harlem River lies the Bronx.

Inwood is the northernmost neighborhood on Manhattan Island in the New York City borough of Manhattan. Because the borough of Manhattan contains a small part of the mainland (Marble Hill) north of the island of Manhattan, Inwood is not technically the northernmost neighborhood in the entire borough. Inwood is sometimes referred to as a subsection of Washington Heights, but most people residing in or familiar with Upper Manhattan do not agree with this classification.

Inwood is bounded by the Harlem River to the north and east, Fairview Avenue to the south, and the Hudson River to the west. Its main thoroughfare is Broadway, and its main shopping center is Dyckman Street. Compared to the rest of Manhattan, Inwood is a rather remote locale; it is technically closer to Westchester than it is to Midtown.

Inwood is a largely residential neighborhood, consisting mostly of apartment houses and parkland. It also houses a subway yard and Columbia University's athletic fields. From Baker Field, one can view a 100-foot Columbia "C" on the Bronx shore.

Inwood was mostly Irish for most of the 20th Century, but today the neighborhood is mainly Dominican. As real estate prices skyrocket downtown, many New Yorkers have recently discovered Inwood, one of the last reasonably affordable neighborhoods in Manhattan. Inwood appeals to many who want lower rents and a more serene, outer borough-like setting without actually leaving Manhattan and its prestigious "212" area code (and "New York, NY" postal address, which is only available in Manhattan but not the other four boroughs.) This has led some to forecast gentrification in Inwood's near future.

Inwood Hill Park, on the Hudson River, is a largely wooded city park that contains caves that were used by the Lenape before Europeans arrived, and the last salt marsh in Manhattan. Birdwatchers come to the park to see waterbirds, raptors, and a wide variety of migratory birds.

The legendary purchase of Manhattan Island from the Lenape took place in what is now Inwood Hill Park.

Inwood is the only neighborhood on Manhattan Island that has private houses (as opposed to apartment complexes, brownstones, and town houses, which dominate Manhattan.)

Marble Hill is the northernmost section of the borough of Manhattan in New York, New York. It is separated from the rest of Manhattan by the Harlem River Ship Canal, which was dug in 1895 to connect two portions of the Harlem River bypassing a very circuitous portion and leaving Marble Hill as an island. In 1914, the old river was filled in, physically connecting Marble Hill to the borough of The Bronx. When a judge found it to be legally still a part of Manhattan in 1939, the Bronx Borough President declared it 'the Bronx Sudetenland', referencing Hitler's 1938 annexation of Czechoslovakia.

Marble Hill residents remain part of a political district that includes the northernmost areas of Manhattan (Washington Heights and Inwood), but receive services from the Bronx, most likely due to reasons of convenience and safety; being serviced by a fire department located across a draw bridge (the Broadway Bridge) could delay response time, as it would require usage of the University Heights or Henry Hudson Bridges, which are further from Marble Hill than the Broadway Bridge.

The United States Postal Service treats it as if it were part of the Bronx though, as its ZIP Code is 10463 (the "104" prefix used for Bronx localities while "100" through "102" are reserved for Manhattan addresses).

In 1984, area code 718 was created out of area code 212 for the boroughs of Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island; in 1992, the Bronx was added to the "718" roster. Marble Hill residents fought to retain the "212" area code for the neighborhood but lost; today Marble Hill, unlike the rest of Manhattan, is in area code 718.

Marble Hill is named for the large deposits of marble underlying it. The formation, known as the Inwood marble, was formerly quarried for building stone.

New York City Subway service is provided by the 225th Street-Marble Hill station on the IRT Broadway-Seventh Avenue Line, served by the 1. Additionally, commuter railroad service to lower Manhattan, the Bronx, and points north is available via the Marble Hill train station, served by Metro-North Railroad's Hudson Line.

I am reminded that Manhattan means Island of the Hills, unless I am misremembering.

How about that line about the fire engine going over a drawbridge? !

Those places sound like good places to visit.

It is hard in a way to believe that Americans get het up about what telephone number they have. Telephone numbers are inherently rather arbitrary-looking, inhumane, functional affairs, after all.

In modern usage, Spuyten Duyvil is the name of a subsection of the Riverdale section of the Bronx in New York City, named after Spuyten Duyvil Creek, a Dutch name meaning perhaps "Spinning Devil" or "Devil's Whirlpool", on its southern border. Though once a separate neighborhood from Riverdale, Spuyten Duyvil currently refers to the southernmost section of Riverdale, south of 230th Street.

This neighborhood is the location of the Spuyten Duyvil train station, which is served by the Hudson Line of the Metro-North Railroad. It is also home to the Henry Hudson Bridge, which connects it to the island of Manhattan.

http://thejoekorner.quuxuum.org/nycrr/nycspuy.jpg

it's funny how people who are planning a move to nyc ALWAYS ask about manhattan. the commute time from someplace like astoria is so quick!

it's like someone asking about a move to L.A., and being recommended the Pacoima neighborhood -- because IT'S IN LOS ANGELES CITY -- instead of, you know, Burbank or West Hollywood or Santa Monica or Culver City.

"Well, there are some overlooked great spots in the cities of Cambridge or Somerville or.."

"no no no, it has to be in BOSTON city!"

"*snicker snicker*"

I mean, sure, living in downtown Seattle has a lot of upsides, but living in an adjacent neighborhood here is far more advantageous, financially and for fun. Same with Portland.

Vancouver, BC might be an exception.. but there are more exceptions than examples, really.

Actually I take this back and want to decimate it.. E Hastings... Ugh. Kitsalano or Commercial Drive please.

well duh, park slope is one of the most expensive neighborhoods in brooklyn!

xpost - Yeah, I know Park Slope is expensive! My roommate had lived there for three years and wasn't eager to leave the area.

dude, washington heights is NOT a ghetto. it's heavily working-class dominican, but i think just as many middle-class whites live there. same with inwood. it's just a really pretty environment to live in, with beautiful deco architecture and the hudson river and ft. tryon park.

http://static.flickr.com/33/52826395_9a4016d2d0.jpg

i mean to say, Manhattan keeps on makin' it Brooklyn keeps on takin' it Bronx keeps creatin' it and Queens keeps on fakin' it.

no, really. Brooklyn's the best place in the world!

lots of those in Manhattan

I don't know. I'm not that crazy about Brooklyn. The only part of it I've ever had a lot of fondness for is Brooklyn Heights.

There's nothing wrong with it, just different priorities and it always puts me in awe when I see those kind of numbers.

yeah, and NOT HAVE A JOB

and in places where that isn't true, rent is expensive.

Rent/mortgages in in similar urban areas (LA/San Francisco/etc.) may be comparable or more expensive, but in most other areas it's not even close. People all across America have jobs and don't pay $1500 a month in rent.

i mean there are so many places where if you're not a private-practice lawyer or something, you'll probably be an assistant manager at applebee's, making $18,000 a year.
Huh?

I guess my point is: the getting-a-job part has its good and bad sides in every city in the U.S., "it's hard getting a job where it's cheap to live" needs some more qualifications as a statement, I think.

that's the most boring part of Brooklyn! Except for Grand Canyon burgers on montague (and there's another one on 7th ave in Park Slope), and the comic book store, which is a cousin of St. Marks, though now there's a great comic store on smith st called Rocket Ship, so forget walking all the way up there.

no need. i HAVE lived in other parts of the country, you know.

I mean, I really don't judge the niceness of neighborhoods based on what kind of cool stores are in them!

so naive:)

my different priorities are living in my hometown, where i went to high school and college, within walking distance of my parents, and in a city with more services than anywhere in the country. and not living in a house in a suburb, or driving a car. but my overriding priority is, for a multitude of reasons, to live in a tightly constricted space filled with many other people who want to live there. the high demand drives the high comparative rent, which drives the high comparative salaries. people in more suburban areas have the reverse priority - to live further away from other people. housing costs are cheaper because you can keep building out at the edges. salaries are lower because housing costs are lower.

xpost - Gabbneb is OTM about driving - one of the major reasons why I stay in the area that I didn't mention is that I don't drive, and never need to if I stay in NYC.

meanwhile, the price of gas is still high, and you have to pay taxes, and if you buy something on the internet or through a catalogue (or go to a specialty store with fixed retail prices), it's not like they give you a special discount because your salary's lower.

You can walk to the promenade from many nearby neighborhoods. What you can't do is find a reasonably priced apartment!. It's very pretty, but neighboring and nearbye areas like Fort Greene, Cobble Hill, Carrol Gardens, Boerum Hill etc are all much more interesting.

But the South Bronx is not Manhattan. Nor is it Brooklyn Heights. Off-topic again :(

Dan, understand that a lot of my attachment to the neighborhood comes from the fact that I lived in DUMBO for a couple years before it went totally over the top with gentrification circa 2001, and I spent a lot of time in Brooklyn Heights because DUMBO was a dumpy ghost town. Also, it's just a nice area for strolling! I appreciate the Upper West Side for similar reasons!

to contrast that, i really like the current mix of businesses at "atlantic center" (cough cough) -- useful midprice chain stores like circuit city and target, and nothing too sleazy or p.f. chang-ified (yet). i feel like what's there doesn't interfere with the character of the neighborhood (but that intersection is really a crossroads separating different neighborhoods).

the jehovah's witnesses aren't bothersome. they don't go around knocking on everyone's door.

the

eh whatever. it's not as if i ever need to interact with them for any reason.

Witnesses tend to be very nice people, I was just being a smartass. (And when the Rapture comes their real estate will all be available, so maybe it'd be good to be in the vicinity to stake claims.)

the witnesses are to fixer-uppers what the mormons are to genealogy. they're very handy!

you can have that if you get a house in brooklyn, queens, or staten island (or north jersey, or long island, or westchester).

(For comparison, my first one-bedroom apartment cost about $400 a month, water included.)

you could probably rent an entire (small) house in a respectable part of queens for $1400 a month.

"first"

when i lived in clinton hill, they came by every couple of weeks. it's more that they probably don't bother much with multi-unit buildings.

I think Brooklyn is so freakin' boring. It has none of the energy of Manhattan, and nothing directly to recommend it, besides a quick train ride to the island. And Grimaldi's. And Coney Island.

huh? There's much better pizza then Grimaldi's, which you'd know if you spent time in Brooklyn, I suppose. Brooklyn has just the right amount of energy, which is why I moved here. It's often actually quiet at night.

THANK YOU. i was gonna say. di fara's? hello?

forget i mentioned it.

this is why i'm glad i'm from nj instead of nyc

not so much anymore, but if you're going to get in on 'em, now's the time.

i have a few friends in nyc: exgf(and occasional ilxer) on the UES, friend in i guess tribeca, music/cs dude in park slope. but you know nj we tend to stick to our own. i don't think i could ever actually live in nyc; it's not just that i could never afford it, but also that it's nice to have some sort of separation from the city. 30 minutes by train is close enough for me

i identify with this as a brooklynite; i like the eventfulness of GOING to manhattan (even if it's for a really banal reason).

Brooklyn pride is the worst variety. I've not only been to your borough, Dan, I've lived there. Carleton Avenue, 1994-1996, two of the worst yrs of my life.

Where is Carleton Avenue? I'm sorry I'd assume you hadn't spent time here, I just can't imagine someone who'd been to Brooklyn would say and nothing directly to recommend it, I mean, Di Faras pizza, for starters.

freudian slip?!?

maybe I was thinking of the food co-op?

http://www.brooklynbridgepark.org/images/kidsinpuddleweb.jpg

http://www.brooklynbridgepark.org/images/dancers_and_bridge2web.jpg

http://www.voxpopnet.net/

I'm just prosteltyzing because I love it. Of course anyone can not like it so much, but to say it's got nothing to recommend it just seems silly.

And do tell what DJ set? Were you the girl who said "why don't you, you know, play some dance music, I mean, if you really want to get people dancing?" Was that you?

I don't really like DC either, but it has some nice neighborhoods and beautiful row houses.

Honestly, you're much closer to downtown Manhattan here than you would be in Wash. Heights.

Kensington is a neighborhood in the center of the New York City, USA borough of Brooklyn. It is bordered by Coney Island Avenue to the east, Caton Avenue to the north, Dahill Road to the west, and Ditmas Avenue to the south. The neighborhoods that border it are Ditmas Park and Prospect Park South to the east, Windsor Terrace to the north, Borough Park to the west, and Parkville to the south.
Kensington is a predominantly residential area consisting of housing types that run the gamut from brick rowhouses, to detached one family Victorians and apartment buildings. There is a commercial area on Church Avenue. Ocean Parkway bisects the neighborhood and the F-train (Culver line) runs along the western part of the neighborhood.
Kensington is one of the most diverse neighborhoods in Brooklyn, if not the United States. It has South Asian (Bangladeshi & Pakistani) , Chinese, Orthodox Jewish, Irish, Polish, Russian, Mexican, and Jamaican communities.

rent is cheap, and it's definitely "undiscovered." i've never seen any hipsters around here (or any young people, come to think of it). it's a wee haul to manhattan-- but why would you want to go there?

I love Brooklyn. You can walk in a straight line faster here. I can go out here and not have people ask me what my major is.

:D

jonathan /dot/ williams * gmail

xpost, I haven't ridden bike in over a month :(

I wonder what LES means.

Anyway, I'm taking my new to new york friend out for his birthday.

i can make that. but i wouldn't be able to stay out too long.

DOOOOOOOOOD......

Pinefox, turn on "display username" in preferences... oh wait... you're not logged in!

Me = J0N0TH0NGGG WILL1AMS[burg]M4NG

I went to a sort of Irish wake at Sophie's Bar a couple weeks ago, and it was very much like the scary parties the honoree used to throw, or The Iceman Cometh.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/stockholm_cindy/sets/1466394/

(*dodges tomatoes*)

Cross Gowanus off your list then; "From Open Sewer to Open For Gentrification"

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/28/nyregion/28gowanus.html

OMG 61-YEAR-OLD HIPSTER

let's lynch her.

"Curmudgeon"

"Metamucil"

http://www.issueprojectroom.org/spacerental.html

Ha ha, I am in Sunnyside (after being priced out of lower Park Slope a/k/a South South Slope a/k/a South Park a/k/a Greenwood Heights a/k/a/ EHODE as in East of the Home Depot), and I love it. I can't imagine going back to Brooklyn at this point. (Never even considered Manhattan in the first place.)

http://www.curbed.com/archives/2005/11/28/gentrification_update_bohos_in_paradise_city.php

What have you been criticizing lately?
The most recent thing I wrote was an essay on gentrification and how it destroys the possibility of being bohemian in New York City.

Does bohemia exist anywhere now?
I donÕt know. I certainly donÕt have the authority to say that. IÕm guilty of staying in the bubble of Manhattan.

Where do you live?
On the Lower East Side. I loved it until I got mugged at gunpoint. And I had just come home from D.J.-ing, so now 300 CDs are gone. The guys had a sawed-off shotgun. But the rentÕs cheap.

Sometimes I justify this fact to myself by remembering that many of these neighborhoods are immigrant neighborhoods and have changed characters numerous times (from Italian to Jewish, from Jewish to Black, from Black to Hispanic, or whatever). ???

my grandmother lived on the lower east side during the depression. but not even HER GENERATION invented living in lower manhattan. i invite anyone here to call her up and tell her she's a poseur.

obviosusly this has all happened over here in london as well, but there are still pockets where it hasnt happened, and they are the estates/projects that are uniformly populated by recent arrivals from somalia/morocco/iraq/kosovo, and are basically treated by the government as dumping grounds for people they arent going to make any effort to integrate (i think these areas are probably more analagous to paris than nyc though). but housing, and policy, like this, means that areas such as north kensington are probably a long long way from gentrification

i personally have been fairly interested in how suburban 'downtowns' are trying to revive themselves, and if they've been successful at all. my hometown's downtown area was pretty decimated by two things: the development of a shopping mall and the expansion of its main road from four lanes to eight. there have been halfhearted efforts to bring pedestrian traffic back to the area -- the train station that's right near it is actually a main transfer point on the long island rail road -- but they've mostly fizzled (the most egregious example being the opening of a reptile museum that got turned into a 'my kid doesn't want this turtle anymore, can you take it? kthxbye' dumping ground, got condemned, and is currently in the process of being demolished) and it's mostly storefront churches and bodegas.

the firehouse is still really nice though.

on the flip side, my boyfriend's hometown (which is further out on long island) has flickers of downtown life -- there's a music-performance space and some cafes and a brewpub, as well as some restaurants. there are still big pockets that are dead real estate space -- for example, a local department store that owned a lot of real estate decided to move into its own building on a massive parking lot, and it went out of business shortly after the move (there's a briarcliffe outpost in there now) -- but i really do think that keeping the burg's main road walkable (and crossable on a single traffic-light change) made a big difference.

(ps mary is otm about brooklyn pride being totally annoying)

I wonder if part of the trend of moving back into cities has to do with the death of the suburban downtown -- that people feel a sense of lack in suburbs where they have to drive to everything and there's no center.

the long island of the '40s and '50s was a pretty wild place -- fuck levittown (which was just white-trash brooklyn with bigger backyards), i'm talking about the little country-club communities for the professional classes. horseback riding, scotch drinking, a minimum of screaming babies.

xpost I'm very interested in that too (the attempts at revitalizing suburban downtowns).

my interest is in small and medium-sized cities that have sort of fallen by the wayside, former industrial boomtowns that deserve to be great again.

sw3z3y's??

the cr*nf*rd chr*n*cle!

even the coffee shops flounder in the light of westfield's almighty STARBUCKS, though. i think if anyone who lived in cranford say, ten years ago, moved back there now, they probably wouldn't recognize our downtown area, all the stores have changed so much. we also seem to have gotten the tag of "westfield jr." because of it - except our attempts at "revitalization" have yielded mixed results mostly.

westfield's trader joe's is one of the only TJs in the tri-state area where you can buy WINE. (go ahead, non east-coasters, laugh and laugh.)

hah, i love telling friends from texas that there's a trader joe's two towns over from me. no one seems to believe it.

Isn't the trend of moving back into the cities mainly a middle-class, professional thing? Ie., the same people that fled the decaying inner urban areas in the 60s and 70s are now returning? I think that trend probably has to do with the fact that the cities are where the middle-class professional jobs are (the suburban office parks don't seem to have done very well - at least in NJ many of them are associated with aging dinosaur firms like AT&T that have been shedding workers like mad) and now that the cities have gotten safer again people are realizing that maybe they don't have to put up with a 2hr commute any more (and with the ongoing under-investment in transportation infrastructure, that commute only gets more unpleasant, overcrowded and onerous as time goes on).

Reading through this thread I've noticed no mention of the Bronx, other than Riverdale. Why? Too sketchy, too far from anything, too boring? I'm just curious.

-pelham bay (a park, a bay, and the zoo's here too! this is part of the twisty-turny-hilly-windy bronx i love so much)

-city island (private houses, fishing/boating community, seafood restaurants, very serene)

-castle hill (j. lo's from here; heavily puerto rican/dominican)

-rose hill (where the beautiful fordham u. campus is)

I'm curious about those places, what their future is. I grew up in/near one (Rochester) and lived for quite a while in another (Knoxville), watched them both go through attempted downtown "revitalizations," with varying degrees of success. Both of them have lost huge chunks of their manufacturing bases in the last 20 years, and both have seen growth mostly in their suburbs. But even the suburbs aren't on spectacular footing, economically. It takes an awful lot of small office-park development to compensate for the loss of an industry like Kodak (which hasn't vanished, but has shed tens of thousands of jobs). Knoxville has some advantage because it has a nicer climate and is close to the mountains and stuff, so I can see a boom in retired Baby Boomers looking for somewhere cheap and comfortable to settle. But Rochester? What's going to keep a city like that going, long-term?

ditto for IBM in endicott, ny.

Cranford does in fact have a few restaurants and coffee shops that do well (Cafe Rock has actually become a chain, from what I've heard.) But, aside from what hurts every suburban downtown (malls, car culture, etc.), it seemed like there were a few factors that kept it from taking off -- 1) The competition from nearby Westfield, 2) The lack of large building stock in which to put big retailers that could "anchor" the downtown, 3) The fact that the downtown is bifurcated by a major, county road and a train tressel, making it a little less pedestrian-friendly, and 4) (according to some people) that it was just too complicated to open a business there because permitting was too slow and difficult.

Then again, as a town, Cranford seems to be doing just fine -- it has great schools, it's well policed, and it's a good commuter location. It wouldn't be a bad place to raise a family. I think if they built more apartments in the downtown area, they'd get more foot traffic and that would generate some business -- supposedly that's what they've been trying to do, but it seems nothing ever gets done in that town.

You might be interested in this:

http://www.bigapplegreeter.org/

xpost

I think it would be interesting to study just why people thought the whole let's pedestrianize Main Street and close it off and turn it into a pseudo shopping mall idea was a good one. I'm thinking specifically of Charlottesville, here, but I think there are any number of these we could mention. Apparently it happened a lot in the UK, too. Charlotteville's downtown has all these really cool old building, historic and warehouses, but you don't see any of them bc you are turned inward on the "Downtown Mall."

how about the upper west side, that's pretty much always been posh, right? (and hence poss. "least-gentrified")

xpost yeah, I actually find it a little imposing, those buildings along Riverside Drive, it's all so immense and quiet and stately. I mean, relatively speaking. It's still New York.

and in places where that isn't true, rent is expensive.

I know this is a million posts away, it still bears pointing out that the real issue is availability of space. NYC draws a lot of people and they're not making any more land. Charlotte, NC on the other hand has a booming economy and you can make great money there working in the financial sector. Even so, rents are pretty damn cheap ($700 for a 2-bedroom, 2 bath, all brand new, walk-in closets).

Also, Chicago can in no way be called dried-up, but I pay $625 (just went up from 2 yrs at $600) for a good-sized 1-bedroom in a 6-flat. (I live in Uptown--plenty of nightlife, restaurants, close to the El, right by the lake, tons of cabs, not too far from downtown, (10 min by cab, 20 by train.) Granted, this is a not typical, but it is not unheard of. You can fairly easily find a 1-bedroom for around $750-850 in a desireable neighborhood.

I'm considereing, amongst other options, grad school in the states. specifically courses at the Polytechnic University in Brooklyn and the NJIT in Newark. I'm leaning towards the NJIT. So some questions:

1) The New Jersey Transit site suggests that it doesn't take that long to go from Penn station to Newark. Is reverse commuting a daft idea?

3) Where are the best cheapest areas along the A, 2, 3 lines in Manhattan and Brooklyn.

4) What are rental prices like around Penn Station, Hell's Kitchen, Midtown west etc.

5) What would living in Newark, Jersey city or Newark be like, and where would be best to live.

6) Any other tips.

there are a bunch of us ILXers in the hoboken/jersey city area -- hope that i can be helpful!

Ed: Jersey City is a good bet...Hoboken less so. Hell's Kitchen still has some deals and has come up quite a bit so it's worth looking into. There are good places along the a/2/3 in brooklyn...but do you really want a 40 minute subway ride to Penn Station just to then take the train to Newark?

There is the occasional newspaper article about artists/pioneers living in parts of Newark, but it's really not recommended.

Newark is not out of the question - a few people I know have lived in the Portuguese district, known as the Ironbound, and liked it. It's known as a rough city, but the downtown area is pretty bustling - you have some big employers there (Prudential, I think?) and a few universities, so there are little cafes and lunch places. There's even a gallery that sometimes has decent art shows. But you're not going to feel like you're in the middle of some kind of burgeoning arts revival.

Feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions about Jersey City.

My dentist was in Newark, but not far off 280, so I didn't have to get lost in the city.

some areas you might want to look at (no idea what the relative costs are now)
around 10th ave in the low-mid 40s (walk to penn station)
around 9th ave in the low-mid 50s (c/e to penn station)
the flower district (walk to penn station)
financial district (walk to wtc path station)
around broadway between 96th and 110th (walk to 2/3 or take 1 train and transfer across platform)

Thanks for all the info, keep it coming.

The A/C line goes through lots of cheap places to live in Brooklyn, but they get progressively rougher as you travel east: Crown Heights, Bed-Stuy, Weeksville, Ocean Hill, and so on to Brownsville. I lived at the Franklin Ave C stop for three years (which in the beginning was pretty sketch for a white girl at night) and got a good deal in an un-renovated old building but those are rarer now unless you know someone in the neighborhood.

Unless you're really in love with living in Brooklyn, though, I think Grove St or Journal Sq, NJ are your best choices. Once you get the A/C to the WTC station there's still a long(!) walk to transfer to the PATH, then another train fare and another ride. While I lived in Crown Heights I dated someone in JC and I really came to resent that trip. I say, don't do it.

I throw brooklyn in because I know it a bit. (UWS as well)

I think the train to Newark is only about 15 minutes, and to Manhattan is a little less or a little more, depending on where you're going.

but not tied to it by any means.

even if you think you're sure it sucks.

http://www.gta-fr.com/sanandreas/pages/gangs/families.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/170131624_9707c175f6.jpg?v=0

Ha, Dan, these two sentences summarize at least one chapter in like 80% of Philip Roth's novels.

(though the only father in insurance is Portnoy's)

My father volunteers with what I think is like, the last Jewish Synagague in Newark. Newark apparently has tons of beautiful temples, all of which are churches or mosques now. I think it's really cool that he's involved like that. I remember him taking me to get a suit in Patterson and driving by some porn theater, "that's where we used to hang out after school..." Of course it was a porn theater then too...ZING.

He grew up in Clifton. Both his parents passed away recently so we've been back there a few times in the last year or two. Parts are really wonderful, kind of stuck in the 60s or something.

NO LOVE FOR THE BRICK CITY HERE, YO.

But yes: N. Everett Lindabury, Boston & Northeastern's president, had our picture hanging in our hallway. The framed photograph had been awarded to my father after he had sold his first million dollars' worth of insurance, or maybe that's what came after you hit the ten-million mark. "Mr. Lindabury," "The Home Office" . . . my father made it sound to me like Roosevelt in the White House in Washington . . . and all the while how he hated their guts, Lindabury's particularly, with his corn-silk hair and his crisp New England speech, the sons in Harvard College and the daughters in finishing school, oh the whole pack of them up there in Massachusetts, shkotzim fox-hunting! playing polo! (so I heard him one night, bellowing behind his bedroom door)--and thus keeping him, you see, from being a hero in the eyes of his wife and children.