the word "redneck"

If not, why not? Because it's difficult to immediately identify who is allowed to use the term in self-reference or when talking to another person of the same credentials in a non-insulting, inclusive fashion, vice people who should shut their fucking mouth (see the "n-word" for a sort of counterexample).

"Redneck" is not just about an attitude or political stance, it's also got class/race connotations, hasn't it? I would say it is completely about class/race connotations, much like "white trash," it has very, very little to do with any kind of political mindset or attitude, any moreso than, again, the "n-word"

It's basically a denigrating term for white, non-urban working class people isn't it? You mean those stupid sharecroppers and indentured servants who never could figure out how to get out of debt and end up having long familial traditions of enlisted military service? Yeah, them. They can go fuck themselves. They're white, after all.

It comes down to the difference between ascribing a generalised group stereotype on people based on what they think as opposed to who they are. The former is fair game in my book.

For example, only about three people who post regularly to this board have the credentials to say "nigger" and not get shouted down. But if you want to talk about white trash or rednecks, that's fine, because hey, they're white like us.

Then you all wonder why the fuck people living in the heartland/southeast, shopping at Wal-Mart because the Nissan plant pays about $23K a year feel and act persecuted even though "their party" controls all three branches of the federal government right now - massive, massive, massive cultural disconnect, exploited at will by the likes of Rove.

If I was called a redneck by a coworker without them also being a self-acknowledged person of less-than-stellar flyover country roots then I would probably think about filing an HR complaint.

ILX usage is a really extroadinarily poor way to judge a term's relative offensiveness IRL.

you're never going to call a wealthy, patrician suit-wearing capitalist a "redneck" are you, no matter what he thinks.

Oh, Hi, fucking welcome to Earth, My name is Tom

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,380,000 for george bush redneck. (0.18 seconds)

-- Dave B (dave.boyl...), December 15th, 2005.

hmm, so if we stereotyped the white british working class's mindset, and gave it a name like 'chav', that'd be fair game?

"trailer trash" is a word rednecks use to talk shit about other rednecks.

And yes, I'm American. But only because I can't find any women with EU passports to marry me.

Point taken.. My opinion on what Redneck means to me.

So racial slurs are OK as long as they're not aimed at a minority racial group? Because whatever it is, "redneck" is most definitely racial. You don't hear too many black guys being referred to as "rednecks".

Here in DC, I've several times heard the term "trailer-trash Ph.D.'s"--that is, biochemists, linguists etc. whose degrees are from, say, Arizona State. Just in case those folks thought they'd worked their way into the ruling class or something.

http://www.emsshirts.com/images/redneckfire.jpg

There's a bunch of this gear for sale at the mall in my hometown. Every single design has Confederate flags on it.

I disagree, I think there are rich rednecks, like some of my dad's golf buddies, certain Texas oilmen (cf Syriana)..

'The Apocalypse Is Upon Us'

"We're redneckin' now!" Linda bellows.

I guess we are. I didn't know redneck was a verb but if it is, it no doubt covers what we're doing now, which is sitting on top of an old school bus, drinking beer and moonshine whiskey, sucking those raspberries and watching race cars scream around a track. If this isn't rednecking, I can't imagine what would qualify.

yeah. my friend's dad is a self-identified redneck and also a ge executive.

this was my impression too.

I mean it's a cultural thing, uh, kind of the cracker version of keepin' it real, right, as opposed to being standoffish, uptight, snobby, fancy, thinking you're better than other people. I mean you might win the lottery or go to school and become a rich lawyer but you still hang out at the bar with your rowdy friends drinking Coors. But even though I worshiped Dale Earnhardt as a kid, I probably destroyed all my redneck cred by turning into a French speaking liberal who did time in the Ivy League.. d'oh.

Nah, there are plenty of rednecks in California. I think white trash and trailer trash are offensive but not redneck. Or rather the term redneck is purposely offensive to a certain type of person that deserves offense while white trash and trailer trash are casually, callously offensive in a classist way.

wtf

Mostly just agreeing with Tom.

The complicated thing about the terms is that they work the opposite direction as "nigger," which refers to basic race-category stuff first, and then has been finessed by some people into referring to specific behaviors or cultural affiliations (cf that Chapelle reference above). "Redneck" for the past few decades has been probably perceived by people to refer mostly to cultural affiliations -- which is why they feel okay saying it, as if it refers strictly to stuff people do by "choice" and is therefore open for picking on. But of course the flip is that it works in the same categorical way as "nigger," as Tom has been explaining all along.

The cultural-affiliations part of it has been reclaimed way more than anyone's done for "nigger" -- we have proud self-professed rednecks in all sorts of positions, and plenty of the values and cultural mores of redneckdom are totally popular and beloved in this country. And there are times when it's really tempting to use the word in really neutral descriptive ways, ways having to do with cultural description. But the flip side of that is shitty enough that it's worth taking the extra time to say "he's really into bass fishing," just in case.

(Ha: middle-class immigrants and "rednecks"/"hicks" have vexed enough culture-relationships to get through as it is!)

wtf

You know. Rednecks.

This indicates a bit of a disconnect .. I always though of a Redneck as a bigot first, and a fisherman, well, not at all really. And really only since Jeff Foxworthy (or maybe just before that) has Redneck become a term of endearment.

It's kind of nice to see confirmation that ILX is equal-opportunity when it comes to being completely condescending and offensive to demographic groups.

No, I don't know.

The race-blur is still funny: can anyone imagine a dude like Chapelle doing a Foxworthy-style "you may be a nigger" bit? (I suppose there's that one Chris Rock segment that trends really, really close to this.)

xpost DIY I can't think of any good reason racism would be first on your redneck-association list. Okay, well, I can think of one good reason, which is the civil rights movement -- but post-that I think racial attitudes for "rednecks" have moved in the same directions as they have for the culture at large (maybe not starting from as good of a place, but still moving in the same direction). And when people say "redneck" now they mean a bunch of geographical and cultural stuff, not "southern good-ol-boy racists." When people say "I gon't get NASCAR, what do all those rednecks see in it," they're not claiming racists like cars -- they're making insinuations about these people's class and attitudes (which may include an accusation/expectation of racism built in there).

And "redneck" has totally different connotations depending who says it. If you call yourself a redneck, it's understood that you're just describing your background culture, and presumably in neutral or positive terms -- just explaining where you come from. If someone calls someone else a redneck, it's not always clear how much bite and classism and stereotyping is playing into that -- unless, like Tom said, you've already demonstrated some sort of understanding of the demographic. E.g. I'm met loads of immigrants who think of everyone as a "redneck," in really broad-stereotyping and unspecific ways (to the extent that "redneck" just seems to mean "white American person"), and it's the same sort of group-and-culture snobbery that often comes back in the other direction.

Yeah, I know that that's what it's come to mean in recent history.. but it's reminiscent to me of how the Civil War was about "State Soveriegnty, not slavery."

This drives me nuts. It's like ppl haven't been to the country before.

OH WAIT.

The funny thing about redneck-bashing is that it works in these ever-expanding circles. In a small middle-US town, you'll probably have a gap between middle-class educated families and working-class outskirts-of-town "hicks" or "rednecks." Blow that up to the US as a whole, and you have this stereotype gap between coastal and big-city people versus "red-state" or small-town people. Go to Europe, and you have those kinds of attitudes directed toward the whole US. It's like nesting dolls, or something.

And so for obvious reasons I started getting peeved by this stuff a whole lot more when I moved to NYC and found that being from the midwest at all provoked some of the same stereotypes and maybe snobbery that I always saw flying around internally at the high schools I went to. And I got even more super-bugged over dinner in London, hearing this jackass at the next table offer his analysis of the 2004 election.

Interestingly enough I feel like maybe redneckdom is poised to become the next issue of interest for "sophisticated" coastal liberals; maybe the whole "red-state" idea is creating genuine curiosity instead of just the usual sneering. I feel like I've seen a few different documentaries cropping up on NYC PBS about this over the past year -- like really "intimate" Hoop Dreams kinds of things following the lives of poor, rural kids.

I just now noticed the pine-tree air freshener.

Another related phenomenon is the small town guy who can't stand the people around him, and aspires to move to a coastal city, and then after moving to the coastal city, aspires to be European.

hahahah holy shit

"Find one in every car. You'll see."

I have seen this. I think I work with one of these dudes.

At a very basic level, I think of anti-redneck as being anti-fun. Shooting guns is FUN. Driving something really fast is FUN. Drinking beer in the woods with your friends is FUN. Living in the country and doing shit outside is FUN.

I just love how close redneckin' and hippy dirtbaggin' get to each other sometimes. NH, the Northeast Kingdom of VT, North Carolina, and NoCal (I imagine) are some of the best places to observe the asymptotic convergence of 'necks and hippies.

My favorite: the hick dude that discovered pot in high school, turned on to psychedelics, professes to be free of hatred and/or prejudice, is "down" with black dudes and whoever else, and still lets slip the occasional racist epithet or blinkered political observation. I LIKE this guy. He is GOLDEN and KIND.

Then I went to an Ivy League school, did some arty shit, moved to Chicago and lost what little credibility I had to begin with.

Sorry, my issues are showing. Back to topic.

Some people are country, some are city. And there's a lot of intentional misunderstanding between them both.

xpost: holy shit, dan, are you kidding/! I mean, I'm not *surprised*, but still. God.

This is essentially the political character of the vast majority of east tennessee, in my brief experience

(xpost) I think it is fair to say that it is much easier to view the guy you've described as "GOLDEN and KIND" if you are white.

I also recognize that this is a massively unfair thing to write.

If doing those things = redneck then I guess me, and most of my extended family, are rednecks. All this time I never even knew! Seriously, though... maybe urban types consider all people who live in the country and aren't very educated rednecks, but when I was growing up in Texas 'redneck' implied a xenophobic, uneducated, violent, bigot, who was proud to call himself a redneck.

There are so many sub-classification of country folk to explore! Don't lump them all together as rednecks. There are bible-thumping church ladies, slack-jawed yokels, bumpkins, hillbillies, hicks, shit-kickers, and I'm sure many more.

(xpost)I also don't think I've ever encountered anyone on ILX who acts like a redneck.

Rednecks hate computers. Computers are for pussies.

I think your grammar seals the deal.

No, it isn't.

Not only is that guy GOLDEN and KIND, but he also gets ARRESTED for playing the BONGOS in the NUDE.

hahaha

http://www.jedisparadise.co.uk/childrenstv/Collectables/Harlem%20Globetrotters%201974.jpg

I'm pretty embarrassed at how long it took me to become normalized to the point where I could grasp this, actually.

whether you starve in the appalachians or you starve on a share you still starve. hillbillies = rednecks in all aspects but topography

I don't hate rednecks but I do hate certain things that might be identified with rednecks like guns, the republican party, a romantic view of the confederacy, anti-intellectualism, or ridiculously large trucks. If it's the word itself you find offensive then I can find a different label to use when describing that type of lifestyle.

xpost to the "gook" comment

I absolutely do not believe that and it's not at all what I have been arguing.

yep. My parents were pretty worried about me picking up the Appalachian accent & being mistaken for, uh, a hillbilly.

Another related phenomenon is the small town guy who can't stand the people around him, and aspires to move to a coastal city, and then after moving to the coastal city, aspires to be European.

JE NE COMPRENDS PAS CE QUE VOUS DITES

In New England, it means they suck.

This is exactly why America should be burned down and started over. Aren't liberals supposed to be the nice ones?

No, no, no, no.

REDNECK =
http://www.bandittransamclub.com/Snowman.jpg

HILLBILLIE =
http://members.cox.net/renpics/images/grz.jpg

Yeah, that's worked out well.

Yeah here's our problem: You think it means bigotry and republicanism, and I think it means where I come from.

Where did I mention the word bigot?

Gee, you think that means bigotry? I thought that was just "heritage" or as Tom says "it means where I come from."

In other words, "Heritage, Not Hate".

The most unconvincing catch-phrase of the past twenty-five years.

I guess because I think that it's an integrated part of the overall american culture rather than a separate foreign culture that I have no contact with. It's just a matter of degrees between a southerner saying he's allowed to reclaim the term because of where he was born and a northerner feeling free to use the term because he has been in contact with aspects of the culture his entire life. But then I'm sticking to the definition that "redneck" does not exclusively mean southern.

It don't. Doesn't.

On this thread you came out and just start egging on people who defined themselves as "redneck" or said they came from "rednecks" and now you're trying to get me to defend my feeling a bit riled up about it because your definition of the word "redneck" is a person who deserves to be made derided and patronized. That is why you're an asshole. SAVVY?

The fact that you don't want to acknowledge that is precisely what makes you lack the credibility to call people rednecks. And understanding those two levels is precisely what gives some people the credibility to say it. If you talk dismissively about rednecks as a culture-group, you're also talking dismissively about some people's roots and culture, in a really deep way -- you're coming close to ragging on their whole recent ancestry, and they're not going to like it. I'm not sure anyone should be talking shit about "rednecks" without understanding that.

If you need an analogy, consider that there are lots of southern black people who have a culture every bit as distinct, good and bad, as "rednecks." And my guess is you wouldn't just talk about them as a culture-group and rag on their culture -- or if you were going to, you'd go out of your way to be sensitive to the fact that it wasn't just banal pop-culture decisions you were talking about, but an actual Culture, one with a history that's heavily ingrained in people's identities. Not just how some people behave, or what they like, but also on some level who they are and where they come from.

But you were also saying that the term was offensive - meaning Southern working class.. So is it offensive to you that other people use it because it's lumping you in with the stereotypical redneck? Or because you see it as just a generally derisive term for southern working class? I'm just wondering how you reconcile people who use it affectionately versus people who use it as a cultural/classist epithet.

Or maybe I'm missing your POV completely...

I mean if I used a derogatory term, I would never expect to be able to explain to somebody I inadvertently (or purposefully, in walter's case) offended that "oh well I just meant this and this and this part of the word, those things I was thinking about when I said it don't apply to you, so don't be offended" so why is this still an argument?

I am certainly not the type of elitist liberal strawman who would call someone a redneck because they like Nascar or have a southern accent. I honestly didn't realize that there was a serious movement toward reclaiming the term redneck outside of a kind of humorous self-deprecating Jeff Foxworthy thing. I can see that there are certain people who are quite proud of their "redneck" traits in a way that I don't think has anything to do with the south or economic background (see the president) and I guess it's my problem that I kind of associate that with the "heritage not hate" crowd.

I understand that the word redneck refers to a certain segment of farming people but I don't think the current popular understanding of the word really bears much relation to that origin. Still I can see how someone from a farming background could be offended by the term no matter what the context and I'll think twice about my (very rare) use of the word in the future. I apologize for being an asshole on this thread and trollishly baiting you Tom.

wasn't sure if this should go on one of the race threads

http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/get-schooled/2014/may/13/it-politically-acceptable-deride-hillbillies-and-r/