Ireland at Italia 90

my memories of Italia 90 are poor because I didn't really like football much at that point.

I think I was sitting behind the couch when Kewin Sheedy scored against England, because the whole family was watching.

Really gutted Ireland aren't in the World Cup this summer, watching that. Crazy stuff though, football is some game!

I can't get excited about the world cup when Scotland aren't in it.
I'll watch every match. But it's just not the same.
I'm sure you will feel the same Ronan.

I think the latter would win.

Matt Holland maybe.

Ronan> do any Irishmen support England at world cups? Here we will support any British/Irish team bar England. We just can't bring ourselves to yet we all support English club sides.(and dada and I can still support England at cricket)

Some say Rangers fans support England but I know loads and NONE of them support England.

I know exactly what you mean Ronan!

I'm still relieved that this summer won't all be about the boys in green traitor that I am.

Re Scotland humiliation: also Morocco in 1998. understandably forgotten tho.

http://www.aldaver.com/Images/Wc/masc1990.gif

And i never forgave stewart mckimmie for ballwatching in 1990!

That was some save from Mo Johnston at the end though.

That's what I'm talkin bout

http://www.aldaver.com/Images/Wc/masc1974.gif

The Romania game is etched in my mind though, as Pat Bonner was my hero at the time.

No.

I've always had a soft spot for Wales (but not for whales). Back in 93 they nearly qualified for the World Cup - I think they still had Ian Rush, Mark Hughes, Neville Southall playing for them and a young Ryan Giggs, maybe Dean Saunders. I remember the night England played at San Marino and went a goal down after about 6 seconds, eventually we started beating them but it became clear that we couldn't qualify anyway (maybe cos Holland were winning?), so they switched over to the Wales game. I think they only had to draw, but they managed to lose 3-2. Double gutted.

I was no fan of Ireland at the end of the 80s / start of the 90s because a)we always seemed to be playing them, b)we couldn't beat them, c)they were an ugly team of cockneys and Scots with distant Irish relatives, d)Jack Charlton's shredded wheat adverts. But one of the best moments of the last World Cup was when Robbie Keane equalised in injury time against Germany.

I have no feelings about Northern Ireland at all.

maybe it's the Irish in me.

Some of the lads had never been away from home before
'Twas the first time Whacker put his foot outside of Inchicore
Before we left for Europe we knew we'd need a plan
So we all agreed that Joxer was the man to drive the van

In Germany the autobahn, 'twas like the Long Mile Road
There was every make of car and van all carrying the full load
Ford Transits and Hiaces and an old Bedford from Tralee
With the engine overheating from longhauling duty free

There was fans from Ballygermot, Ballybough and Ballymun
On the journey of a lifetime, and the crack was ninety-one
Joxer met a German's daughter on the banks of the river Rhine
And he told her she'd be welcome in Ballyfermot any time

As soon as we found Stuttgart we got the wagons in a ring
Sean Og got out the banjo and Peter played the mandolin
There was fans there from everywhere attracted by the sound
At the first Fleadh Ceoil in Europe, and Joxer passed the flagon round

But the session it ended when we'd finished all the stout
The air mattresses inflated and the sleeping bags rolled out
As one by one we fell asleep Joxer had a dream
He dreamt himself and Jack Charlton sat down to pick the team

Joxer dreamt they both agreed on Packie Bonner straightaway
And that Moran, Whelan and McGrath were certainly to play
But tempers they began to rise and patience wearing thin
Jack wanted Cascarino but Joxer wanted Quinn

The dream turned into a nightmare, Joxer stuck the head on Jack
Who wanted to bring Johnny Giles and Eamon Dunphy back
The cock crew in the morning, it crew both loud and shrill
Joxer woke up in his sleeping bag many miles from Arbour Hill

The next morning none of the experts gave us the slightest chance
They said the English team would lead us on a merry dance
With their Union Jacks all them English fans for victory they were set
Until Ray Houghton got the ball and he stuck it in the net

What happened next is history, brought tears to many eyes
That day will be the highlight of many people's lives
Joxer climbed right over the top and the last time he was seen
Was arm in arm with Jack Charlton singing, Revenge for Skibereen

Now Whacker's back in Inchicore, he's living with his mam
And Jack Charlton has been proclaimed an honorary Irishman
Do you remember that German's daughter on the banks of the river Rhine
Well, didn't she show up in Ballyfermot last week and ...

would also like England to play Ireland. might be a 'nice symbolic gesture' of sorts given the relative progess made since the last disastrous time they met.

I wouldn't say that. I have very little interest in most England games, be they friendlies or qualifiers, against teams like Moldova, Georgia, Croatia, Denmark, etc. A game against Scotland would be much bigger than that, but obviously not as big as one against Germany, Argentina, Brazil, France, Italy, etc. Scotland would be in my top ten opponents, just not in the top five.

would also like England to play Ireland. might be a 'nice symbolic gesture' of sorts given the relative progess made since the last disastrous time they met.

Only if you could guarantee that there wasn't a repeat. Unfortunately most England matchgoing supporters seem to xenophobic morans.

Hmmmmm. Nazi salutes in Germany 88? "No surrender to the IRA"? Dambusters theme?

That all pretty much petered out in the 90s fortunately. I was shocked by what happened in Dublin in '95 but it was still a minority. Since then there's been no real problems.

That's true, but I'll stick by my original point. Personally I wouldn't risk organizing a friendly in Dublin because I don't think the England fans can be relied on to not repeat what happened last time.

I was too young to remember the '74 WC campaign but I was certainly cheering the Scots on in '78 and '82; wasn't Souness blatantly hauled down in the box in the dying minutes against USSR at 2-2? It felt like a real blow to the event to have them go out.

Failing to score against Uruguay in '86 after playing against 10 men for about 85min was rotten too.

However it was our own fault for "the costa rica keeper is dodgy with cross balls" and we just humped the ball into the box at every opportunity and the keeper caught everyone of them.

That all pretty much petered out in the 90s fortunately.

Er, well... The only England international I ever attended was a Euro qualifier vs Luxembourg at Wembley in Sept '99 and there were plenty of anti-IRA/anti-German/anti-Scottish chanting on the station platform after the game. The missus was astonished.

No we don't.

Here we will support any British/Irish team bar England.

No we won't.

As a rule, I don't really support any team at a World Cup that Scotland aren't in (or in any World Cup after the group stages). The only reason I don't want England to win is because their commentators are utterly unbearably smug and forget that the BBC covers other countries that aren't England.

To get back to the actual thread topic, Ireland at Italia 90 were entertaining, yes, and it was good to see two Celtic players - Pat Bonner and Chris Morris - doing well. However, to me, it was no different to any other wee team doing unexpected things. But I can see how it would be if you were Irish.

My grandfather was born in Belfast so i guess i should support N Ireland in these games (but he was born before ireland was split up so i dont see why i should choose between them, may the best team win etc)
In other words im scottish and who cares about anyone else.

I'd happily support wales if they qualified too.

Ailsa is OTM about the media thing. Thats probably the main reason I could never want England to win the world cup, despite the fact I can happily support Liverpool.

People who aren't Scottish? All these people that support whoever-is-playing-England?

xpost - ILX thread in being derailed shocker. Er, didn't *you* turn it into a thread about Scotland?

???

Who? John Motson? He is English, and if he's commentating on an England game broadcast on the BBC he's probably safe in assuming that at least 90% of his audience are English and want England to win. Happiness might seem like smugness if your whole tournament is defined in terms of wanting one team to fail, and then tuning in to watch and seeing them win. I'm sure if you listened to Germans commentating on a German victory, or Brazilians on a Brazilian victory, etc., you'd find the commentators similarly 'smug' but it wouldn't bother you so much because you're not desperate for them to lose.

Well, in the case of England, that hasn't actually hasn't happened in major tournament for, oh, 40 years now

No, I would thoroughly expect the commentators to be smug in the same way that BBC Scotland ones are totally unpartisan up here. Difference being that's BBC *Scotland*, not the whole-nationwide-BBC which is, you know, British. Not English. And by commentators, I mean, Motty et al, also pundits, journalists, etc etc.

I'm not "desperate" for England to lose, btw. Just to make that clear. I just don't want to have to listen to how fucking fantastic it is for the whole country if they do (which they won't, not anytime soon, but hey). I think I already said I don't really care who wins a World Cup, I just like watching it. Maybe I didn't say it, but, yeah, that's what I do)

Er, didn't *you* turn it into a thread about Scotland?
And i apologised for it!

im scottish and who cares about anyone else
I meant that i'm more concerned about what happens to Scotland than what happens to Ireland/England/Peru or whatever.
But not having Scotland to support in a world cup means some people usually just end up focusing on whoever is playing England.

I think if I lived outside the UK i'd not be so bothered if England won or not.
Possibly.

Multiple x-post

No. Commentators in every other country in the world strive endlessly to avoid stereotyping people from other countries. They avoid tedious trivia, and refuse to indulge in partisan reporting. 'Fairness is our watchword' is their motto.

(xpost to myself)

I remember in 1996 and the whole of the pub I was in groaned when Kluivert scored as we all wanted Scotland to progress, I can't say I'd groan now - the antagonism has become too wearying and I'm only too happy to see Scotland lose nowadays, which I find saddening.

Jamie is Bang OTM just there.

many many x-posts

And Australians I've known and the South Africans and the New Zealanders and *whisper it* the Germans!

This is possibly the wrongest thing ever written in the history of the internet

Personally I forgive the Dutch football team anything, just cos of Cruyff.

(watch the nastards beat us in the final this year now)

Sorry, I've lost you. Or you've lost me.

Yeah, sorry, said Ailsa, meant Dadaismus. I got confused by the recently added 'A' at the start of his name. I was responding to this:

[Me quoted "Happiness might seem like smugness if your whole tournament is defined in terms of wanting one team to fail, and then tuning in to watch and seeing them win"

D's reply: "Well, in the case of England, that hasn't actually hasn't happened in major tournament for, oh, 40 years now"

My reply: "I meant win a game, not win the tournament, unless you're suggesting that Motty is so far gone that he gets smug when England lose, or that the smugness you hate only came out to play once (way back in 1966)."]

(xpost, oh, OK, but I'll reply anyway)

Ally's Tartan Army

It was a weird time... like I was the only person in the country the pod people hadn't got to.

I have never heard this happen, though maybe it did many years ago. In any case I think people who complain about it are just as bad as any commentator who's done it.

Is Sky News the heart of English smugness these days? Could that be where the whole "if England win you'll never hear the end of it" thing comes from.

It's even worse than the scottish media going on about the lisbon lions(hold your tongue, ailsa!)

specialised channels exists for Scotch, Welsh or Irish patriotism, if getting wrapped up in froth & blind nationalist bleatings rather than minding your own business is your kind of thing

!!!!!!!

What?!?!?!?! They are in the minority --> it's OK to be biased against them? Tell that to, erm, any minority.

I didn't know there was a whisky channel.

We were talking of bias for & not against, usage was 'expected' not 'OK', & my contention is that to concieve & understand of all in terms of places & states is boring & the practice of it perpetuates it.

cf. whisky channel.. the chinese & koreans who stream premiership over the internet have revealed to me that the Lost in Translation advert is true.

That video package at the start is good, it is better watching David O'Leary kneeling on the ground, overcome after scoring his penalty than watching him stare impassively ahead as Villa play abysmally again.

Also, watching the Romania shootout again reminds me that Danut Lupu is my favourite footballer name ever.

I think it would be an example of poor, encumbered and unfluid journalism for a commentator on a game involving the England team to continually cite the equivalent fortunes of the Scottish team. Besides an England vs. Scotland game.
I don't understand no right. What does a national broadcaster have a right to do, and from what authority does it draw them?

You're right though, public service broadcasters don't have to do anything or serve anyone or anything. Silly me, what *was* I thinking?

John Motson: "We all get a little worried when you see Wayne Rooney
go down injured... from an England perspective.
Mark Lawrenson: "Speak for yourself."

Lawrenson's the only one who doesn't make any pretence about being pro-England... and he's from Preston!!!! Well him and Martin O'Neill of course.

John Motson? He is English, and if he's commentating on an England game broadcast on the BBC he's probably safe in assuming that at least 90% of his audience are English and want England to win.

So why shouldn't he be pro-English? If I tuned in to watch Scotland v Belgium (for example), with Scottish commentators and Scottish pundits, broadcasting to a predominantly Scottish audience, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if they made pro-Scottish comments. I would expect it. This is what happens in every country in the world. We just have a unique situation in world football where our 'country' has four 'countries' in it, but surely it's fine for our national TV station to be pro-all four, rather than 'neutral'. I really don't see why Motson should have to pretend that neither he nor the vast majority of his viewers care, to avoid offending a handful of Scots who are only watching in the hope that England lose. I can't imagine a Scottish commentator in the situation I described above reacting to a Scottish goal by saying "and that's a goal for Scotland, which is neither a good thing nor a bad thing, let's remember plucky Belgium, and of course our cousins from England and Wales who may or may not want to see Scotland win tonight".

But the whole point is it isn't "pro-all four"!

I can't imagine a Scottish commentator in the situation I described above reacting to a Scottish goal by saying "and that's a goal for Scotland, which is neither a good thing nor a bad thing, let's remember plucky Belgium, and of course our cousins from England and Wales who may or may not want to see Scotland win tonight".

People in England, Wales and Northern Ireland don't watch BBC Scotland or Scottish Television

He nearly came when Owen got the third against Argentina last year.

yes but to be fair so did Alan Hansen.

They might do if they lived in Scotland. And they wouldn't complain about a perceived pro-Scottish bias. You live in London, don't you?

Yes but, no matter where you live, everybody in Britain gets to hear John Motson say, "If only Wayne Rooney hadn't got injured what might England have achieved at Euro 2004" EVERY FIVE MINUTES

I think this kind of sucks but then I suppose I would. It's not my business to tell Scottish people who they should or shouldn't hate but I wish it would stop.

I was talking to a Scottish friend of mine, I can't remember who (perhaps it was someone on here), and s/he said that s/he believes that the English really hate the Scots. I was amazed, because I really don't think that's the case. But I guess it makes us about even.

*The idea that Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland TV football fans should be able to watch gibbering, frothing nationalistic TV commentary but England fans shouldn't seems peculiar to me.

The idea that Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland TV football fans should be able to watch gibbering, frothing nationalistic TV commentary but England fans shouldn't seems peculiar to me

Personally, I don't like gibbering, frothing nationalistic TV commentary from anyone. You don't have gibbering, frothing partisan TV commentary in club games after all (except in European games - unfortunately).

haha you don't listen to Alan Green commentating on Liverpool games then?

I don't get Sky so I don;t reay care about him (also Sky doesn't really have a public service remit innit?)

[Cabs are you not coming to popfilm tonight?]

The reason I make this point is that I (as someone with a mild dislike of Liverpool FC) was very conscious of this bias. More conscious, probably, than a neutral or a pro-LFC person would have been. It made me understand a little better why haters of the England side get quite so aerated about (what seems to me) uncontroversial commentary bias.

I have to put up with telly such as River City and a whole evening each week when every blooming thing on BBC2 is broadcast in the Gaelic Medium, and these things are more frequently on the box than the international football. I do quite like Scotland On Film, though.

When the World Cup or Euro Whatever Year is on the telly, I like to go to the Walkabout and our Australian cousins don't seem to mind their pub being overrun with whingeing poms for the evening. You can even have a kangaroo burger while you watch the match! It's the best way to experience a Walkabout, I think.