Bush criticises Record Which has The US anthem Sung In Spanish

Uhhhhh . . . yeah. Someone misspelled "white supremacist mouthpiece site."

As you can guess, the other quoted source -- which is described of course only as a "think-tank" -- is associated with FAIR, better known as the "no darkies in my neighborhood plz" lobbying group.

"Immagints, I knew it was them!" - Mo Syzlak

O, you say, it is possible, or barely is quickly, as for us is the ‚» of some hail'd ‚ê end wide line gleaming? Whose clearness ASTRE and thro ' as for dangerous fight and O'er as for watch'd where us meets to this methodological inflated in the doctor of disaster, this method bravely streaming? As for And in bewijsthro the flag which does those ASTRE which ' the night to of the the shining where the rocket which destruction intensity it could point with the air is red it gave and is our flag boom o calls still, is inlaid there was done, was, in spite even to that as for waveO'er on the other hand the country and the house of brave so?

God bless the free online translator!

apparently being an american now means making all your decisions based on what hardcore french nationalists would do

Or "doctor of disaster".

Not to mention France doesn't have a large English-speaking minority.

I can't stand it. When I saw the thread subject, all I could think of was that the only way I could even imagine the national anthem being listenable on an album is if it was done by Seu Jorge in the style of the Life Aquatic soundtrack.

The news through OLYMPUS immediately flew;
When OLD THUNDER pretended to give himself Airs
"If these mortals are susser'd their Scheme to persue,
"The Devil a Goddess will stay above the Stairs.
"Hark, already they cry,
"In transports of Joy,
"Away to the Sons of ANACREON we'll fly,
"And there, with good Fellows, we'll learn to entwine
"The Myrtle of VENUS with BUCCUS'S Vine.

"The YELLOW-HAIRED GOD and his nine lusty Maids
"From Helicon's Banks will incontinent flee,
"IDALIA will boast but of tenantless Shades,
"And the bi-forked Hill a mere Desart will be
"My Thunder, no fear on't,
"Shall soon do it's Errand,
" and, dam'me! I'll swinge the Ringleaders, I warrant,
"I'll trim the young Dogs, for thus daring to twine
"The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCUS'S Vine.

APOLLO rose up; and said, "Pr'ythee ne'er quarrel,
"Good King of the Gods, with my Vot'ries below:
"Your Thunder is useless." - then, shewing his Laurel,
Cry'd, "Sic evitabile fulmen, you know!
"then over each Head
"My Laurels I'll spread;
"So my Sons from your Crackers no Mischief shall dread,
"Whilst snug in their Club-Room, they jovially twine
"The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCUS'S Vine.

Next MOMUS got up, with his risible Phiz,
And swore with APOLLO he'd cheerfully join
"The full Tide of Harmony still shall be his,
"But the Song, and the Catch, & the Laugh shall be mine
"Then, JOVE, be not jealous
Of these honest Fellows.
Cry'd JOVE, "We relent, since the Truth you now tell us;
"And swear, by OLD STYX, that they long shall entwine
"The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCUS'S Vine.

Ye sons of ANACREON, then, join Hand in Hand;
Preserve Unanimity, Friendship, and Love!
'Tis your's to support what's so happily plann'd;
You've the Sanction of Gods, and the FIAT of Jove.
While thus we agree
Our Toast let it be.
May our club flourish happy, united and free!
And long may the Sons of ANACREON intwine
The Myrtle of VENUS with BACCUS'S Vine.

James Gardner of the Smithsonian National Museum of American History said Americans have long enjoyed different versions of the Star Spangled Banner, including gospel and country interpretations.

Did they totally change the words in the gospel or country "interpretations"? How anyone can possibly think this won't be totally inflammatory boggles my mind. I really hate to sound reactionary, but look, I have no effing idea what's being sung. And then you tell us not only is there a Spanish version, but there's a version written to criticize immigration policy... Come on!

So, what, you're saying that the Republicans have hired a British producer to record a song that will irritate the hell out of their electoral base so as to get out the vote? Get real.

How different is a song with different words from a "stars and stripes" that was black and orange instead of red and blue?

And as far as meaning goes, well, when Dubya says "liberty" and I say "liberty" the words aren't changed, but the meaning is. I just don't buy it. This is a completely symbolic thing, not the instructions for a driver's licence or whatever.

xpost to Shakey:

Sorry to be lazy, but talk me through it, then. The media were reporting on it before Bush commented and not just Fox. There are lots of potential criticisms of the media, including on this issue, but you (seemed to) suggest it was part of an effort to relieve stress on the ruling party.

Now I'm not saying immigration is not a fit topic for debate - sure it is, we need to address how to deal with illegal immigrations, have a policy that is humane and effective, etc., but focusing on it NOW, at the exclusion of other issues, particularly during this election, at this particular point in our political history when there is so much more at stake is highly highly suspicious.

Really illegal immigrants in '06 = gay marriage in '04.

Bush: No I don't. Because I think the national anthem aught to be sung in English. And I think people who want to be a citizen of this country aught to learn English and they aught to learn to sing the national anthem in English.

I understand what you're getting at, but unfortunately that's a dead end for me, as I have only returned to the US last summer. I've been asking myself the same question since I've been here. It does seem, though, that something has changed relatively recently: the immigrant community has never been so active in my memory. Marches all around the country? Boycotts?

In my less misanthropic moments, the whole thing reminds me of the controversy around Islam. What (or who) your average American really hates are terrorists and those who support them. Unfortunately the most prominent terrorist have identified themselves with Islam, thereby playing into the racism that's just under the surface for a lot of people. Similarly with immigration: what your (again) "average American" gets emotional about is illegal immigration. If all this "immigrant activism" is about people who are legally in the US, then they are doing an absolutely terrible job of communicating what their problems are.

Did Bush spell out his response to the question? Yeah, he's an idiot, but if you're going to take shots at him, at least take good ones.

Me personally, I live in a working class latino neighborhood in California and its always been pretty politically active.

you can listen to it in full there.

but I don't really recommend you do.

Now I'm not saying immigration is not a fit topic for debate - sure it is, we need to address how to deal with illegal immigrations, have a policy that is humane and effective, etc., but focusing on it NOW, at the exclusion of other issues, particularly during this election, at this particular point in our political history when there is so much more at stake is highly highly suspicious.

That I can buy, I guess. And it only takes a couple of key commentators (cue Lou Dobbs) to take an issue and make it the center of debate.

My gut tells me that one of the reasons its surfacing is exactly because so many things are going badly. Even though many economic numbers seem good (did I hear today that we had the highest quarterly GDP growth in years?), most people feel very very uncertain about job security, and they've got pressure from gas prices. And when you're looking for a scapegoat for why you might lose your job (or why your health care benefits are being cut back or...), immigrants are an easy target.

I just read the English lyrics and I have no idea what they mean, so I can't tell how literal a translation it is in general.

So, by definition, the words can't mean the same thing, then, can they?

Wow, you see that? You can just make it out now that the sun's rising. It's our flag, still standing from last night. Remember, there was that big battle going on, and we looked up and we were like "check out that flag, man." And then there were bombs going off all night and all kinds of crazy explosions and stuff, but it was pretty cool, because every time there was an explosion, you could see the flag was still there, so we were all like "sweet." Anyway, check it out -- you see? It's still over there, still waving and shit.

I.e. we still have the defensive "can't bring us down" anthem of a plucky upstart nation.

Amanece: ¿no veis, a la luz de la aurora,
Lo que tanto aclamamos la noche al caer?
Sus estrellas, sus barras flotaban ayer
En el fiero combate en señal de victoria,
Fulgor de cohetes, de bombas estruendo,
Por la noche decían: "!Se va defendiendo!"

Coro:
!Oh, decid! ¿Despliega aún su hermosura estrellada,
Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada?

En la costa lejana que apenas blanquea,
Donde yace nublada la hueste feroz
Sobre aquel precipicio que elévase atroz
¡Oh, decidme! ¿Qué es eso que en la brisa ondea?
Se oculta y flamea, en el alba luciendo,
Reflejada en la mar, donde va resplandeciendo

Coro:
!Aún allí desplegó su hermosura estrellada,
Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada!

¡Oh así sea siempre, en lealtad defendamos
Nuestra tierra natal contra el torpe invasor!
A Dios quien nos dio paz, libertad y honor,
Nos mantuvo nación, con fervor bendigamos.
Nuestra causa es el bien, y por eso triunfamos.
Siempre fue nuestro lema "¡En Dios confiamos!"

Coro:
!Y desplegará su hermosura estrellada,
Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada!

A Frightening Analysis

We all know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration-overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor named Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration — both legal and illegal — was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream...

My dubya-voting & easily frightened mom forwarded it to me & my siblings.

The whole thing is full of lolz, especially when the guy goes on about the U.S. becoming a "Hispanic Quebec"

As a friend of mine said elsewhere, the national anthem should be sung in english because this is...England?

What kind of point is that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_%28song%29

not true. remember "America the beautiful" as performed by Fozzy Bear.

Also, "Yankee Doodle dandy" with a drum & fife band is great.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave

And then the third one starts talking about God and how, now that we're a country, we should feel to kick ass when we feel like it --

Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."

It's an accurate dramatic arc, really: (1) "independence!" (2) "hooray!" (3) "fuck all y'all!" and (4) "God is on our side and we will smack you down, bitch!"

x-posts

It seems pleasantly jaunty in French.

It's like I said above, if you make the red-white-and-blue green-white-and-orange, it's NOT still the same flag.

also who said idaho??

No one ever got in a snit about us singing in italian or anything.

Mitya, I'm not even American and I think this is a great idea - why is singing the anthem in spanish at all saying "we can't or don't wish to speak your language but we do believe in similar, if not identical, things."?? I dont see that in the slightest.

this is probably the best point made, and one to which there isn't really a (rational) response.

that said, I still think there is a big difference between putting a hiphop beat behind the song (which is the same as a country, or gospel, or Hendrix arrangement) and changing the words, which is how i see the Spanish version.

Ostensibly Idaho means 'Gem of the Mountain' and thus the name 'The Gem State' ... which was originally, and more aptly, intended for Colorado.

Christmas is religion and carols are cultural, in some sense. You can be a Christian wherever you come from. The national anthem is symbolic of a specific state/government and adopted in a specific form. It's just not the same. (I'm not going to refer to the flag example again.)

If the anthem is somehow supposed to be representative, or a tribute to the state, yet you sing so that that a majority of the population don't understand your meaning, to me that's what you get. "We do believe in similar (if not identical) things" -> The spanish version is the most faithful translation of the original English possible, so the singers are still paying tribute.

The whole question of whether there should be an official language is a larger one that I don't want to get it into. It just seems to be that if you're going to love a particular state, you really do need to unite behind a few simple things. To me, a mass of people, some of whom may not speak English with any real proficiency, signing the song in badly accented English would be a MUCH more powerful statement than the defiance of doing it in Spanish.

One has to wonder how non-Spanish-speaking immigrants are feeling... Now they're second-class non-citizens!

wtf

A more reasonable assumption would be that there are loads of Spanish-speakers in the U.S. who are both (a) proud to be a part of their own cultures and (b) proud to be a part of America. Singing the national anthem in Spanish is a simple and direct way of combining those two things -- and a reflection of the non-provocative fact that speaking Spanish is increasingly an major part of the experience of being American. Singing the national anthem is a symbolic statement of being American -- singing it in Spanish says that people here who speak Spanish are also American. (And in that formula "speaking Spanish" doesn't just mean "speaking Spanish" -- the language is a stand-in for the many, many cultural experiences it connects. This song won't just be interesting to people who speaking Spanish but NOT English; it'll be interesting to people who feel like being Spanish-speakers is a part of who they are as Americans.)

If people at baseball games were trying to sing over one another in their respective languages, then yes, I would worry that our different language and cultures were maybe reaching a point of dangerous disunity. But this isn't that -- it's one record symbolizing that being-Latino with being-American are totally entertwined and compatible with one another. And whether Bush means it this way or not, criticizing it can sound curiously like saying that being-Latino and being-American are not compatible with one another (or only compatible with one another so far as white people say that they are), and that's a poor message, possibly a reprehensible one.

Nabisco:
As usual, your post is very sensible. I am definitely cynical and also positive that I don't have any handle on Latinos in the U.S. Your suggestion as to how this will be received in the community (enthusiastically) sounds right. (As far as British producer putting out the song and doing it "to thank those people who do the jobs I don't want to," well, I think my cynicism is justified.)

I will assume that when you say "the non-provocative fact that speaking Spanish is increasingly a major part of the experience of being American" you mean "encountering the Spanish language." Obviously a lot of Americans, presumably still the majority, do not understand Spanish and therefore it is NOT part of their experience of being American... I don't know -- maybe I am wrong, and most non-Latino Americans will understand this the way you explain it. But my gut tells me that this is as far off vis-a-vis that community as you think I am vis-a-vis Latinos. If so, this is just another case of a symbolic gesture being understood in two completely different ways by two different groups.

And your last graph suggests to me one last point, which is that I may be associating this Spanish Anthem with the boycott and protests and unfairly coming up with a something very like the baseball game you suggest. And this is also what I had in mind with the "second class non-citizens" comment: I have visions of people marching to Congress singing this song. But are the protests about US immigration policy or about Latino rights?
(Yes, I know the majority of the immigration debate has to do with Latino immigrants, but if you're going to be symbolic, then get your symbolism right.)

Look, I don't know why this seems different to me. Carry banners that say "We the People" in Spanish, hang the Bill of Rights in Chinese big character posters all over the Lincoln Memorial, whatever. I'm not really angry about it, but somehow it just seems to me to be sending an agressive and separatist message.

But as an outsider I honestly don't see the English language as being integral to the definition of what the US is. And I see a bunch of indicators that're suggesting otherwise, more and more. And an obvious rule of thumb would seem to be "never side with George W. on anything. Ever." Maybe.

As someone who was born in the US but lived about half my life outside the country, I guess my feeling is that "we" have less and less in common, and I've seen in action the kinds of division that results from communities splitting themselves along linguistic lines. (Personally I'd require EVERY child in the US to get a bilingual education starting from day 1. But then again at this point I'd pick up and emigrate to any one of a half-dozen other countries if I had any way to.)

I thought this was a reference to My Sharona being on his IPod.

Really illegal immigrants in '06 = gay marriage in '04.

This is accurate but only because you're sort of wrong on both of them for the same reason. Your idea of what polarization is is completely backwards. Making homosexual marriages an issue was not something Karl Rove dreamed up in an evil underground laboratory but was something that became an issue only when judges in Massachusetts declared the concept of exclusively heterosexual marriages to be unconstitutional (for better or worse). This is another example of polarization being defined as the masses resisting a newly imposed uniformity. The judges weren't creating polarization by doing that, people were creating it by opposing it. Likewise, the people breaking the law and going into American cities with Mexican flags and demanding American citizen benefits in foreign languages aren't creation the polarization regarding illegal immigration...the people complaining about it are! What lovely logic!

I'm not arguing for or against the merits or demerits of homosexuality or illegal immigration necessarily but against the twisted concept of who has made this an issue. The Republicans (especially those in the White House) have a lot to lose and little to gain by making immigration a national debate and this was not a strong point of theirs (though they have few at this point). Your idea that Bush is benefiting from all this has no facts to support it (Bush's numbers have been getting progressively worse as this issue has gotten bigger).

There have been numerous reports of Bush secretly saying that he supports amnesty for the illegal aliens and his ambigous comments regarding this issue have only hurt him and a lot of Republicans further. If anything he probably could've helped his numbers out temporarily by really coming down hard on illegal immigration. The Left absolutely hates Bush and his numbers never go up because they are growing warm to him but are usually correlated with his support from the right. His low numbers are coming right during all this immigration hoopla. How could you logically think this is benefiting him at this point?

Translating /= revising! Granted the latter can happen but not just b/c the former does!

Do I think people have the right to sing our anthem in Spanish?? You're godammned fucking right I do!

My godamned ancestors lived exactly where I do long before Stephen F. Austin ever fucking came and anyone who doubts our right to this land and our mother fucking culture can kiss my ass!

Does that attitude cause more problems than it solves? Probably. Do I give a fuck?

NOT AT ALL.

La bandera de estrellas

Traducción de Francis Haffkine Snow. Copyright 1919

Cunga makes some interesting points, but s/he's not offering enough facts to be OTM:

He argues (through sarcasm) that the people breaking the law and going into American cities with Mexican flags and demanding American citizen benefits in foreign languages are the ones creating the polarization. To paraphrase the question that was posed way above in the thread, "Why does it seem that suddently people are marching into American cities with Mexican flags?" And the answer was, essentially, proposals in Congress to make illegal immigration, and any aid and comfort given in the process, a felony. That would seem to me to be the "polarizing act," but I'm sure the chain of events could stand further investigation.

Second, re: the politics, I think the logic would be be that Bush and the Republicans can win only when they get their core voters out. Given the high level of dissatisfaction with the administration, those core voters are demoralized and less likely to come out. If not the White House (lame duck, what's the point?) then the party must be concerned about their chances. So "they" (whoever that is) stir up nativist sentiment in the hope and belief that this issue is one that will energize their voters. And if this issue is one that illuminates differences between an unpopular President (Bush supports the amnesty/guest-worker program), then maybe that works to benefit of party congressional candidates.

haha who wrote this???

BUT I can totally see why this pisses people off! This is exactly what isolationists, xenophobes, and anti-immigration people have been afraid of since the first non-Anglo immigrant climbed off the boat at Ellis Island - complete and total takeover by brown(er) people. First it was broadcast TV, and now it's cable channels, and you can even see some Spanish language commercials on English language channels, and DMV handbooks come in Spanish, and the police have Miranda cards in Spanish and nothing screams out DANGER to white-supremacist types like our country's theme song in a language foreign to the white dominant group.

The most cursory glance back through political history will demonstrate that groups in power do not like to give up their power. White dominant power groups especially. So of course this is going to get some white people's panties' in a twist. I don't know if that's what it was designed to do, but it's insanely naive to think that it wouldn't.

That said, brown power rise up! See you on the streets tomorrow.

“That’s why we should always sing it in our common language, English. And that’s why today I am introducing a resolution that affirms that statements of national unity, especially the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem, ought to be recited or sung in English.

“We wouldn’t recite the Pledge in French, or German, or Russian, or Hindi, or even Chinese (which, after Spanish, is the second most spoken foreign language in the United States). And we shouldn’t sing the national anthem in Spanish, or any other foreign language.

“So, in this land of immigrants, let’s all sing it together, as one American nation, in our common language: English.

“Mr. President, on behalf of myself, Senator Frist, Senator McConnell, Senator Stevens, Senator Isakson, and Senator Roberts, I send this resolution to the desk for purposes of introduction.”

Chinese is a spoken language, huh? Ok.

This would never have happened if Reagan hadn't stopped funding the mental hospitals.

eh, nitpicking. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_language

You're sure as hell never going to see the Mexican National Anthem sung in English or German or Celtic, even though there are noteworthy numbers of people with American, German, and Irish ancestries in Mexico.

Because there aren't significant enough numbers of them to justify it. There are roughly 30 million Spanish speakers here (the vast majority of whom do speak English). I doubt the number of English, German, and Celtic speakers combined match the percentage of Mexico's population that Spanish speakers here do. Unless you know something I don't, which is very possible.

unlike america where waving a mexican flag is a-ok with the ppl in charge!

hmmm

I mean, the fact that the anthem was written in English is a direct result of England having the best Navy in the world, blowing away all their Dutch and Portuguese and Spanish and French opposition in the mad scramble to divvy up the northern part of North America, and eradicating what few American Indians remained. But of course there were already tons of Spanish-speaking Americans, even then. And it's certainly not out of the question that by the year, say, 2100, television shows, Congress and Hollywood movies will all be in Spanish - I don't see how that would be any "wronger" than English being everywhere, when if you get down to it we should Officially and Authentically be speaking Navajo, Cherokee, Ute, Cree.. or is it only violent invaders who get to legitimately set the official language for eternity?

Dee I feel uncomfortable about the first graf of my last post. i think I went too far. I'm sorry about that.

Normallly you make a lot of good points. But the last one was ridiculous you are mistaking geography with politics. The national anthem is the state song of the United States of America. Said polity was founded primarily by English-speaking emigrants from Europe; in any case the vast majority of political discourse and documents (Federalist papers, Declaration of Independence, Constitution, etc) were written in English. Give us a break with the Navajo crap.

so, what else follows from this? your "argument" runs into some problems pretty quickly, I'd say. also are you kidding with the geography is apolitical stuff?

and:

I'd laugh at all of you guys who are saying, "I don't see anything wrong with the Star Spangled Banner in Spanish," but your ridiculousness is just sad, not comical.

ugh.

Yawn. Don't try to make me into something I'm not.

I'm not making any statement about who should or shouldn't be citizens. In any case, English is still spoken by the overwhelming majority of US citizens, while Spanish is only spoken by a minority (albeit a growing one). As I've said above, the national anthem is a particular symbol of the US state, adopted in a particular form, like the flag and seal. I find changing that symbol to a Spanish language text -- and apparently a relatively free translation, as far as I understand -- wrong-headed, at best. (It's not even "The Star-Spangled Banner" in Spanish, it's "Our Hymn".)

"From my point of view, people expressing themselves as wanting to be Americans is a good thing," she added.

what's funny is the US ripped off god save the queen, too - one of the most tear-jerking songs in england that goes right to the root of the nation, and we fucking put new words to it and called it god bless america and continue to sing it today! talk about cheek

why? it's not like makes the traditional anthem disappear. I seriously don't get people's investment in this.

american rebels change beloved patriotic song of their colonial overlords
=
disenfranchised latino immigrants change national anthem of the hypocritical state that denies them rights

ok, enough. i've got to get to sleep.

Was ist's, das am Strande im Nebel dort weht,
Wo die mutlosen Heere des Feindes jetzt rasten?
Was ist's, das so stolz auf der Wallhoehe steht,
Das die Lüfte des Morgens so flatternd umfaßten?
Sieh' es glänzen im Licht - wo der Morgen anbricht-
Hellstrahlend und leuchtend - jetzt ist es in Sicht!
'S ist das Stern-besäte Banner; lang weh' es allein
In der Heimat der Helden, im Lande der Frei'n!

Und wo ist das Heer, das so prahlend einst schwur,
Durch verheerenden Krieg uns und blutige Taten
Die Heimat zu rauben, die heilige Flur!
O ihr Blut hat verlöscht jede Spur, die sie traten.
Kein Hort schüßte mehr das gemietete Heer-
Sie entflohen oder fielen; das Grab deckt sie schwer.
Und das Stern-besäte Banner weht siegreich allein
In der Heimat der Helden, im Lande der Frei'n!

O, stets sei es so, wenn sich Männer bewehrt,
Zu verteid'gen ihr Land gegen feindliche Horden!
Der Sieg und der Frieden sei ihnen beschert,
Preist den Himmel, daß endlich wir frei sind geworden!
Recht, siege hinfort - an jeglichem Ort
Und dies ist der Wahlspruch: "Sei Gott unser Hort!"
Und das Stern-besäte Banner weht siegreich allein
In der Heimat der Helden, im Lande der Frei'n!

lan·guage - 1. NOUN:

a. Communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals, such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols.

b. Such a system including its rules for combining its components, such as words.

c. Such a system as used by a nation, people, or other distinct community; often contrasted with dialect.

http://persian.usinfo.state.gov/

Bush sang Star Spangled Banner en español during 2000 campaign
Wed May 03 2006 09:35:20 ET

"When visiting cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, or Philadelphia, in pivotal states, George W. Bush would drop in at Hispanic festivals and parties, sometimes joining in singing “The Star-Spangled Banner” in Spanish, sometimes partying with a “Viva Bush” mariachi band flown in from Texas."

So writes author Kevin Phillips in his book AMERICAN DYNASTY.

one might argue that all the positive experience the world has had with national self-determination since 1919 has given good cause to be circumspect about people asserting "ethnic rights." no?

xpost

we are arguing a fairly narrow point here, re: the national anthem.

i don't think i am affording English some "bullshit transparent universal non-ethnic value," or even a non-bullshit transparent universal non-ethnic value. however, i also do not believe that languages are perfectly parallel (or translatable), certainly when you get into symbolic and conceptual issues. and i do believe that there is value in building commonalities among all the citizens of a state, however, and singing one lousy song together doesn't seem like that much.

i also believe quite strongly that, given the chance, people will fall back onto ethnic identities. my response re: 1919 was a reference to the many countries that have tried multi-ethnic democratic societies and failed in one way or another (e.g., Czechoslovakia, Yugoslovia, Ukraine) and the logical consequnces of Wilson's national self-determination that have become apparent in the last 90 years. and no, i'm not being alarmist about latinos overrunning california and seceding to join mexico. but i do think anyone who thinks the u.s. has some unique history and heritage that means a civic, policy-based democracy is wired to succeed here is full of bullshit.

The whole thing began to zoom over my head when I saw accidentally Geraldo (he's on before the Simpsons, it's not my fault) call the presence of non-US flags at the demonstration "insulting," which seemed like the last straw in noticing just how lunatic and hypocritical a lot of this reaction is getting; oh someone try telling all these mixed-up white folks to strip all references to Ireland from the back bumpers of their SUVs!

Mitya's indeed gone cynical: "We must give up on pluralism in order to save democracy."

"Here is how they do it," Lamm said: First to destroy America, "Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar Seymour Lipset put it this way: 'The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy. Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."

Unless the purpose of the anthem, in your estimation, is as a pledge of fealty which must be delivered according to specific instructions, just to prove one's fealty and willingness to follow specific instructions no matter what.

And that language is Latin.

Subject: thoughts about unchecked immigration, multiculturalism & other enemies of the USA

> Take the time to read this; it ought to scare the pants off you!

[...article/speech thing here...]

> Okay....I have read the above assignment. I still have my pants on;
> although my Scottish, Irish, and Welsh ancestors may have gone into
> battle with no pants, I will not.
>
> Remember when America was a "melting pot"? Our ancestors came here from
> "the old country" to become Americans. They worked hard to become a part
> of and not apart from the American culture. Their children were even
> more determined to break away from the old ways. So, what happened?
>
> Why did we allow the liberal notion that American culture is inherently
> bad to even surface, much less survive? Why do we allow ourselves to be
> branded "intolerant" if we insist that English be required of all
> citizens. I firmly believe that it is a good thing for Americans to know
> about other cultures, and it is especially good for them to be fluent in
> other languages; BUT FIRST be an English speaking productive citizen of
> America.
> Let's be keen to support classes that teach English as a second language;
> but, let's strike down any law, rule, decree or whim that would force
> school districts to hold classes in foreign languages for the purpose of
> allowing aliens to avoid being absorbed into our culture. (I wonder how
> many States allow Drivers examinations to be taken in a foreign
> language....)

When did Welsh troops not have pants?

part of the basic mindset, innit? we the righteous are constantly under threat of evil and immorality trying to destroy our society, flouridate our water, and sap our precious bodily essences

brown people feeling better than they do

xpost Let's not caricature what they're afraid of too much.

what, like threatening nuclear strikes on countries?

i think it comes down to some primal fear of _any_ Other, e.g. that survey about athiests being the most distrusted minority.

but, mitya, things like not freaking out when a different-language anthem emerges enable multiethnic states to exist. national self-determination would=Latinos seceding from the US. as a million other posters in this thread have pointed out, a Spanish language national anthem is the OPPOSITE of that. it has nothing to do with thinking the US is exceptional...I mean what exactly are you saying, that a faux-ethnic nationalism has to be constructed to preserve us from the dangers of real ethnicity?

also, you pinning this issue on the freaking "Star Spangled Banner" of all things just makes you seem...like you lack perspective. which is suspicious when it comes to stuff like this.

Anchor Babies

Of course, we've always had demagogues who grasp at power thru fear; this is merely the latest incarnation(i.e. the commies aren't out there anymore, so we gotta get something else to demonize).

Anyway, I think we will have to agree to disagree: while I can understand that the Latino community may see singing the national anthem in Spanish as a way of honoring their ethnic heritage and their US citizenship at the same time, I also think it's ridiculous for anyone to pretend that the the Anglo community (at least) will not see it as a refusal to sing the English one. I don't know who's right, but I'd much rather than proponents of a more liberal immigration policy would find more... inclusive ways to build support than this.

(or perhaps I should say, "the difference I have tried to argue")

Except there are thousands of types of salsa and only basically one type of ketchup so it's not really a fair comparison.

I guess I put this in before you joined the thread. Hotel California and Oh Donna are just pop songs. SSB is a song specifically adopted by the US government as the country's official anthem.

A couple of times I also suggested - perhaps tendentiously - this official status meant singing the anthem with different words as a show of patriotism was not although different from waving a green white and orange stars and stripes.

Okay, enough of this thread for me, really. I get enough negativity off the telly, don't need to find more here.

saying someone can't sing the lyrics (in whole or part) of a national anthem on a record somewhere or as part of a record in a language other than that nation's first is v strange/stupid, I feel

if people were lobbying for the national anthem (in schools and at events and so on) to always be sung in a language other than that nation's first would also be v strange/stupid, I feel

only one of these is happening, I think

Heniz family to thread!

thanks for pointing this out

why the sarcasm?

xpost

you also haven't explained the difference between your problem with this song and right-wingers' problem w/gay marriage, to me both positions are pointless, selfish, exclusionary and above all, deeply paranoid

in other words, rjg otm

xpost HA HA BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL

you imagine wrong on the flag-burning amendment. and i have no problem per se with the spanish-language version EXCEPT to the extent that people want to argue that it's the same or patriotic or an obvious expression of common values or whatever.

and i just hadn't gotten to the gay marriage issue, although frankly i probably won't get to it. i have no problem with gay marriage whatsoever, and i don't care whether the two positions or logically consistent or not.

truce, okay?

Hahahah -- OK, what now? I mean, get one Louisiana Purchase, plus maybe Florida, etc. and there are some German-speaking Pennsylvanians who almost won the early "official language" debate who want to talk to you. Some Dutch-speaking New Yorkers, too.

...and this spanish version of SSB is, effectively, just a pop song in a way, yes? So whats the big deal again?

END THIS EXCLUSIONARY SEAMSTRESSING

McClellan Says Bush's Spanish Not Good

Thu May 4, 11:48 AM ET

WASHINGTON -
President Bush likes to drop a few words of Spanish in his speeches and act like he's proficient in the language. But he's really not that good, his spokesman said Thursday.

"The president can speak Spanish but not that well," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said. "He's not that good with his Spanish."

McClellan's comment was noticeable because presidential press secretaries usually boast about a president's ability rather than talk about any shortcomings. McClellan is in the last days of his job, leaving the White House next week.

McClellan made his remark in response to a report that Bush had sung the Star-Spangled Banner in Spanish during the 2000 campaign. Just last week Bush said the national anthem should be sung in English, not Spanish.

"It's absurd," McClellan said of the report, suggesting that Bush couldn't have sung it in Spanish even if he had wanted to.

Yeah, there is a big weird leap in here that will forever be baffling to me.

(For the record, my typing the sentence above should not be construed as a "refusal" to type other sentences expressing similar thoughts.)

"The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt."
-- Leviticus 19:34

Scott McClellan today:
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the assertion did not ring true to him because, "The president speaks Spanish, but not that well."
"I'm saying that not only was that suggestion absurd, but that he couldn't possibly sing the national anthem in Spanish. He's not that good with his Spanish," McClellan said.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/04/laura-flip-flop/