"Don't Falter" is by a MILLION MILES the greatest record ever made

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(by Mint Royale + Lauren Laverne)

I dug it out for the first time in months today and am bouncing off the fucking ceiling.

― Graham, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Pass me the Dr Pepper

― Graham, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You are on crack.

― RickyT, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

No, just in love.

― Graham, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Don't Falter is the worst kind of pop pastiche. Its relentlessly perky upbeat pop grates by the time the second verse comes around and Laverne (never a good singer) sounds like she has supped too much helium as it sounds reedy thin on the high notes. This is St Etienne lite at its best.

― Pete, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think you'll find 'Legal Man' or 'Wake Up Boo!' is the worst kind of pop pastiche. 'Don't Falter' is quite cute. I like the 'when I'm with you it's always summer' line.

― N., Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Legal Man does not sound like pop, so not really a pastiche of anything (except the theme tune to Eurotrash) Wake Up! Boo is a proper pop record as it got in the top ten is dark and I think works extraordinarily. Its not its fault that it comes from a terrible album and from a band who everyone wanted not to be making records like Wake Up Boo. A million breakfast DJ's crnt be wrong.

― Pete, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Pop = being in the Top 10. I admire the economy of your definition.

― N., Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

DO YOU LIKE FROGS? I THINK THEY'RE POSITIVELY BATTY.

― Mike Hanle y, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

No that's bats sweety.

― Graham, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Right, i'm off to make a fool of myself (ie Risk my heart etc) re: being in love. Wish me luck.

― Graham, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Luck wished. But Rainy will cry at your perfidity.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

No, she says we can still be computer lovers, cos that's different.

(In yer face once more, Raggett)

― Graham, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Shouldn't you be out with this trollop you're cheating on Rainy with? Go away now. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"Don't Falter" is by a MILLION MILES the greatest record ever made"

Graham speaks THE TRUTH!

― DavidM, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I suppose I'd better say what happenned: I've just been to apologise to L (=Belle and Sebastian/Sex?/etc) (guess my T-shirt), after worrying all week about what to say, but as soon as mention last week she says "That's alright [difficult pause] I would invite you in, but I'm just going to bed now" (no rowr comments please), then we just grinned at each other for a bit, me [and her] desperately wanting to say something, but after a few seconds we waved goodbye, and she manages a "see you 'round".

Now I'm sitting here enjoying A Century Of Elvis, and she is so sweet.

― Graham, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

*merry* I am glad. :-)

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ah, Pete, she may suck as a singer - but she has sexy feet.

― Kodanshi, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Lauren has a lovely voice! But she was the least sexy member of Kenickie by a screaming country mile. Gimme Gimme Emmy Kate

― electric sound of jim, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Graham, I didn't say we could be computer lovers (ew), I said that computer luv is different!

― rainy, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

GET THE ALBUM, GRAHAM. On the Ropes is one of those *fun* albums.

― Alan Trewartha, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I will investigate Alan.

Pete: You use "relentlessly perky" like it's a bad thing, and your criteria for "St. Etienne lite" seems to be that this isn't dark or moody or stylish (Doesn't that make SE "DF lite"). I thought you were meant to be pro-pop. Just fuck off you miserable cunt.

Rainy makes the best point on this thread.

― Graham, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I am pro-pop. I don't think Don't Falter is pop. It wants to be pop ( a problem I have with much of St Etienne as well) but is disingenuously aimed at people who don't like pop.

― Pete, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

don't falter is indeed a great record. not sure about it being st etienne lite though (that would be a compliment if so), i like lauren lavernes voice. i wonder if criticism of records like this is down to the fact that it is a pop record made by an 'indie' group, and that there is a certain amount of baggage associated with that (detractors arguing, yes but you only like pop when made by indie dudes like this, whether this is the case or not)

anyway, it is a very good single i reckon

― gareth, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

hey! as i was posting my comment, pete slipped in first saying much the same thing but from the other side

― gareth, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think it's an apalling single, and I liked Kenickie and I like Saint Etienne and I love the idea of indie groups making pop records but most of them tend to be bad at it (cf "Wake Up Boo!"). Most great song-based pop has elements of sadness or melodrama - these are things indie bands are not unfamiliar with but they don't associate them with pop so leave them out when they come to make a pop record. Which leaves euphoria, the counterpoint to the sadness or drama - but the sonic stakes in euphoria have been raised by dance music, and chirpy wordy sugary records like "Don't Falter" just sound weak to me.

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mint Royale surely = dance(-ish)?

― Graham, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mint Royale are dance for people who don't like dance, to nick Pete's idea. Actually it's hard to think of a great purely euphoric record - they're always tinged with sorrow or mania.

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

a great purely euphoric record

Krome & Time ~ Sound is for the Underground

― gareth, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Dont remember the track but almost all hardcore falls into the "tinged with mania" bracket for me.

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

OK, why is "Wake Up Boo" so villified? It got over exposed, sure, but people get so worked up about it that you'd be tempted to think it had some sort of fascist sentiment buried in there or something? It's a really nice tune, something I can imagine the Monkeys singing, sort of I'm A Believer style thing.

― Alan Trewartha, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It combined a tune that was memorable but in a bullying kind of way with Sice's watery voice. Overexposure has nothing to do with it - I thought it was wretched from listen 1.

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Bullying? do you mean it was the sort of tune that says "Hey, this is a memorable tune and we know it, plus you better remember this or you'll be laughed at by your peers"?

― Alan Trewartha, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah pretty much, except change the last bit to "you're going to remember it whether you like it or not".

Thesis: all Summer songs by indie bands are duff. Indie is not Summer music.

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

wake up boo is awful awful awful. irritating watery shit, tune copied off a radio advert for patio doors and windows.

Thesis: all Summer songs by indie bands are duff. Indie is not Summer music.

not necessarily true, i think indie does that late summer on the porch type music really well, Drop Nineteens ~ Kick The Tragedy is a great indie summer song

― gareth, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i. What does anything have to do with St Etienne? The only song it sounds anything like is You're In A Bad Way, which has the greatest first 2 seconds of any record ever, but then disappoints because the perkiness relents.

ii. This idea that great pop must have sadness is entirely your idea Tom. It has nothing to do with the song and certainly nothing to do with me.

iii. Anyway, it does have sadness in it (cf. "You must decide to risk hour heart for love to find you", the fucking TITLE, etc). The song is about choosing to IGNORE possible sadness in love. If you want to be tenuous, there's implied sadness in every line, eg "When I'm with you it's always summer" => Lauren's happiness depends on person [x] ("you know we ought to be together") => "When I'm not with you it's [?????]"

Just cos you're better at expressing this, it doesn't make you right.

― Graham, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

More to the point, Don't Falter = indie, how?

― Graham, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

None of this explains the commercial success of the indie hit "Wake Up Boo".

― Alan Trewartha, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

And more talk of me being in love please.

― Graham, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Kenickie = Indie. Hence Lauren Laverne (the draw on the record since no-one knew who Mint Royale were) = indie. Me and Tom disagree wildly about the qualities of Wake Up Boo which has the sadness which he rightly describes. But I think Tom has a larger problem with horns anyway (phnar phnar). Sice's voice is a problem, but I think Tom wouldn't like a Tom Jones cover version of it either.

Dizzy is a purely euphoric record, and I shall attach no value judgement to that for now.

― Pete, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

but it sure as hell ain't indie Pete. but yup, very exuberant.

I like Don't falter fwiw, I find it uplifting, and nice to bop along to.

― chris, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I like a bit of horn cf. "Reward" by the Teardrop Explodes. In fact I have been known to expound on the need for a return of horns to pop in the pub. If I could remember the horns on Wake Up Boo I would no doubt like it more.

Graham of course the sadness thing is my idea and you don't have to agree with it - however I was explaining why I thought "Don't Falter" is a poor record and why in general pop records made by indie stars are often poor - they fail in my view to understand the form.

Dont Falter must be indie because it gets played in Steve's set at Sussed and not in mine.

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"Don't Falter" is a poor record and why in general pop records made by indie stars are often poor - they fail in my view to understand the form.

Where does old satellite dish face Bextor come into this, admittedly she was hardly an indie star, but she was in that dreadful band, and now seems to be doing rather well for herself in Popworld.

― chris, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Where she comes into it is covered by the "in general" bit - mind you I've not heard the album. Actually maybe now is the time to start that Bextor vs Baxendale Taking Sides...

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Bextor doesn't right the songs now, and (if I remember rightly) she didn't write the songs then. Groovejet was never sold on her (admittedly minor) celebrity, I remember being surprised to find out it was her. And then she plays the pop game very well.

― Pete, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I spent a whole hour working out who did write theaudience songs (I was bored). I had to correlate the photos on the single sleeves (my dad has all of them (CD1 and CD2). It's the shy guy bottom right on the back of the LP.

― Graham, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Right = write in most appalling spelling mistake I have ever, ever made. I feel it has completely undermined whatever argument I made. Sorry.

― Pete, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Blame Ronan

― Graham, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I have never heard 'Don't Falter' right through, but when I've heard snippets of it I've been reluctantly charmed. To that extent I think Tom E is wrong about it.

Tom E is spot-on about 'Wake Up Boo', though - his description of its ills is perfection.

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Best reason for hating Wake Up Boo = the way it ends

― Graham, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Best reason for liking Wake Up Boo! = the fact it ends.

PF you have been to Sussed therefore you have heard Don't Falter all the way through.

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The first time I heard it was at Tigermilking when Madchen played it.

― MarkH, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i am far from satisfied with the posts here for some reason. i'm tempted to start a "we hate it when our friends become successful" thread on ILM, but I think mentioning "Wake Up Boo!" on ILM is probably going to create an ugly scene.

― Alan Trewartha, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't think you should start that thread cos it's a generalisation Alan and doesnt hold up - look at my favourite 90s single for proof that I at least have nothing against indie bands hitting the commercial jackpot.

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oh i wasn't intending to argue that it's a unviersal truth, just borrowing the title from the obv source as a way of talking about this and related issues a little. i don't think anyone has really answered my question about why the Boo song is so vilified by a certain crowd when it was so commercially successful.

on the other hand, my interest is withering.

― Alan Trewartha, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The problem is that Wake Up Boo was pretty dissimilar to what they had done before, and does have the obvious cynical ring of a breakfast show song. COmmon People was probably a distillation of all of Pulp's good traits, but was certainly not out of the blue. ALso of course there is the idea that Wake Up by the Boo Radleys is a pretty wretched album, the Pulp album isn't. Just ideas mind, me and you Alan can fight the Wake Up Boo wars.

Don't Falter is still rubbish though.

― Pete, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"Wake Up Boo!" is a fine pop song. It's the rest of the Boo Radleys' miserable output that I object to.

― Tim, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Sudden MP3-born revelaton! "Broken Dreams" by Basement Jaxx = "Don't Falter" done right.

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Then there are the hardcore Boo fans like me who like just about everything they do, including that song. D'oh!

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

DON'T FALTER IS ONE OF MANKINDS GREATEST CONTRIBUTIONS TO ART

however, it is beaten further by the album version of I Would Fix You and Come Out 2nite.

and how i was made. and in fact anything on the first kenickie album (except for punka which is SHIT) and at least two thirds of the second album and any of their b-sides.

― Wyndham Earl, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

blimey! why didn't someone TELL ME about this thread. as has been pointed out DF features regularly in my early doors set, generally next to "and the beat goes on" by all seeing i (note to self: download original versh of this song), possibly because i don't own any st etienne and possibly because i WUV lauren. also wake up boo is a good song as it was one of the few "indie" records to be played even at the most mainstream of styooodent "party" nites, despite being not as good as stuff off EAF or GS and being let down by not a good album afterwards. also also "when you're with me it's officially summer" line in DF is indie saddo link to the fact that she is/was (?) going out with the bloke from arab strap. also also also "century of elvis"?????? you sad get ;)

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Carsmile if it means you not playing Don't Falter I will lend you all the Saint Etienne CDs in my possession!!

― Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i wuv the original version of the beat goes on. "miniskirts the latest thing u-huh" and so on. it's like a teeny documentary/recent history lesson in song form. "electrically they keep their baseball score". lyrics by sonny bono iirc.

Pop quiz, what's the connection betwen Sonny and Cher, Vincent Price and the Harlem Globetrotters?

― Alan Trewartha, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

sonny and cher were married, VP and the HG not.

― mark s, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Blue Break Beats vol 3 is the best of the Blue Note compilations as it has The BEat Goes On, the original 3 Is The Magic Number (covered almost to dead by Embrace), Ghotto Woman (ging giga goga ging ging ging) and a crazy Tina Turner version of Whole Lotta Love. I think mine got nicked last time I DJ-ed mind.

― Pete, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

None have ever won a competitive game.

― Tim, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

sampled vol 1 has all this and more.

― Alan Trewartha, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Peter Miller shares a useless skill with all four.

― Tim, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Vol.3 = Volume 4 in my house, Pete.

(P.S. Don't Falter is GRATE)

― Jeff W, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i think what people forget is that Kenickie were essentially The World's Most Intelligent Pop Group rather than an 'indie band'.

for fucks sake tom, get with the programme.

― Wyndham Earl, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

They weren't clever enough to get higher than no.16 though heh heh.

"I Would Fix You" is an ace indie single. indie indie indie.

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Kenickie were indie. this is not an insult. but they were an indie band. they were also a very good band. to describe something as indie is NOT a pejorative (well it doesn't need to be). indie. and good. see? simple.

― gareth, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That's not the way Tom uses the word Indie... Indie is his Satan.

― Pete, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

am i allowed to point out that the Breeders are perfect summer indie music?

thanks!

― katie, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Come to the nightclub....INDIE'S THERE.

Some indie is good of course. Like Kenickie though I think a talent for being sparky and amusing in interviews does not the most intelligent band ever make.

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yes, until Kenickie invent some kind of amphibious tank monster that accolade must surely be withheld.

― N., Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Kenickie an indie band? personally i see the greatness of Don't Falter as being evidence to the contrary on that score. there's no difference between that song and Magnatron, I Would Fix You, Stay In The Sun (ok, not their best example) etc and Don't Falter other than the slightly kitschy Mint Royale backing (whose earliest recorded credits incidentally include their remix of I Would Fix You).

on their first album they played guitars simply because they looked cool and they didn't know how to use synths. yet.

the only point Kenickie could be considered indie was in their early demos wherein they made a horrible sub-riot grrl racket simply because none of them could play their instruments. Um, but i think even then they were more Debbie Harry than Kathleen Hanna.

― Wyndham Earl, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Using synths doesn't make you not-indie, cf. the Magnetic Fields.

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

the normal = arguably the birth of indie in the sense we all use it

mmmmm, horrible sub-riot grrl racket

― mark s, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Kenickie = indie-pop

Don't Falter = not indie, not chart-pop either

re: Century of Elvis. I'm not sure what you're trying to infer Steve, but even listening to CoE means I've sat through You Made Me Forget My Dreams, without trying to kill anyone => I must be in love, awwww.

― Graham, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

What this thread points up like all threads which mention the i-word is the nebulousness of the concept. Though I still maintain you know it when you hear it, and since I'd also maintain that indieness is a social and connotative thing that ends up being the most important factor. Wyndham hears pop in Kenickie. I hear indie. Both of us hear records we like a lot. The neutral observer is exhorted to ask themselves the following questions - by which DJs did Kenickie get played? In which clubs were they played? In which publications were they primarily written about? What other records do you think their fans liked? Before coming to a conclusion either way.

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Has anyone on this thread actually claimed "Don't Falter" is indie? For me it's in the same general area as the All Seeing I, later Beastie Boys, and the Chemical Brothers tracks with rock guest stars - dance music made for indie clubs.

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You did:

Most great song-based pop has elements of sadness or melodrama - these are things indie bands are not unfamiliar with but they don't associate them with pop so leave them out when they come to make a pop record ... but the sonic stakes in euphoria have been raised by dance music, and chirpy wordy sugary records like "Don't Falter" just sound weak to me.

― Graham, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

No Graham I didn't - read it again, especially the "when they come to make a pop record" clause. I'm explaining why DF is bad pop not why it's not pop.

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It's Mint Royale you mentalists. Just cos they get this bird to do the singin... etc. (tho i think she wrote words too).

― Alan Trewartha, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i just googled a bonkers fact, that they appeared in allegedly piss poor rom-com "Serendipity" performing "From Rusholme with Love".

― Alan Trewartha, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

1. No, Kenickie were not that bright. But why the tank thing, N?

2. Mr E is once again mysteriously buying into a quite unnecessary indie vs pop dichotomy. Clearly the reason you two think K are i or p is that they're both i & p.

3. It looks like I can now come out of the closet and say I like 'I Would Fix You', and have the CD 45 somewhere. In a closet. It's indie, it's pop, it's indie-pop. There is no great distinction to be enforced.

4. Still, Don't Falter is pop, but is it indie? On this I guess I'll bow to Tom E's knowledge (I've never even seen the record).

― the pinefox, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Pinefox is OTM.

Kenickie are i + p, but neither u nor k.

― Tim, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

tom, i don't think that because kenickie happened to appear in melody maker that it made them indie. equally they also appeared on the o- zone, saturday morning kids shows, the big breakfast and laverne presented pop world.

just because Taylor Parkes points his finger and declares 'THOU SHALT BE INDIE' doesnt mean that a bands entire history, the reasons they formed the band and their creative intentions suddenly become reduced to being The Supernaturals.

as for the tenuous 'Don't Falter - is it indie it it pop?' debate, i think if you listen the song outside of this argument, and, if you must, outside of the context of Kenickie and whatever shitrag indie papers they were in, then frankly i think anyone would be mad to deduce that there was anything indie about it.

― Wyndham Earl, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Since when have the band's stated creative intentions got anything to do with anything? Nobody intends for instance to make rubbish music. This does not stop some music sounding rubbish. Genres are socially defined - in other words Kenickie are indie whether they wanted to be or not. This doesn't stop individual records they made being not- indie, or indie and pop at once, or whatever.

Yes yes Don't Falter is not indie as everyone except possibly Pete has said.

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i have never heard anything out of context

― gareth, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

But it wasn't just Taylor Parkes (if it was him at all). As far as I can tell the overwhelming majority of Kenickies consituency were indie kids. Their records still get played indie discos. And yes, they may have appeared on kids TV, but they also got repeated play on the evening session which is surely a more important indicator of indieness. I mean, the Inspiral Carpets not only appeared on kids' telly, but wrote the theme music to the 8:15 From Manchester, and I have never seen anyone describe them as being not-indie.

― RickyT, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

as i've completely lost this thread's thread, here is the answer: they all appeared on scooby doo

― Alan Trewartha, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Kenickie had a song with the line "lo fi songs are great!" in it: therefore, they are indie. Non-indie acts don't comment, however, ironically, on indie culture. But I don't this means that couldn't be a pop group too - the Inspiral Carpets are a good example, because they were certainly both. This is though, I fear, a real angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-pins kind of question, to which there is not and never will be a useful answer. (Except to the original question, which is that of course Don't Falter isn't the greatest record ever made)...

― Mark Morris, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh, and seeing as I never read more than two sentences Taylor whathisface ever wrote, I doubt he influenced my thinking on Keneckie or anyone else.

― Mark Morris, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oh you foolish man. the line from Punka which you quoted was (and this why i detest this song) AN IRONIC AND SOMEWHAT VITRIOLIC STATEMENT AGAINST LO FI AND INDIEISMS and most specifically against Bis and Dweeb (who they later befriended, well, DJ Downfall anyway).

nasty 'we hate indie' posings = pop group

― Wyndham Earl, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

But Wyndham, surely only an indie band would write a line like "lo fi songs are great!". The fact that they were being ironic makes not a jot of difference. Can you imagine N'Sync singing such a thing?

― N., Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"We hate indie" posings = INDIE - witness a host of posters here for proof, i.e. me.

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

that just doesn't wash with me.

yes, they come from an indie background (hence the references in punka mocking their own Slampt days) but musically i just cannot see them as indie.

and as for the thing, y'know, 'oh they must be indie cos they were in indie magazines and get played in indie clubs'. well so did daphne & celeste (predominantly, they were largely ignored by the mainstream pop media and picked up by the indie circuit) but did that make them indie???

well, no.

kenickie = pop.

― Wyndham Earl, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

D&C were adopted by the indie circuit BUT specifically as an ironic or token pop act - and even that was partial, you can't imagine Kenickie getting bottled off at Reading. The majority of their exposure was in the mainstream pop media - I've no idea whether you were regularly reading Smash Hits at the time but I was and D&C were in it every 2 or 3 issues.

Being an indie band did not make them bad. Being an indie-hating indie band makes them more interesting than most, even. But indie is what they are.

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I contradicted myself many a time up top of thread on whether Don't Falter is pop or not (and to clarify I think it is bad pop). I never suggested it was indie. Mint Royale's other most well known moment = remixing Teerrorvision's "Tequilla" to big hit status.

Kenickie, like possibly St Ettienne and many indie pop bands in saying they dislike the insular and self-reflexive indie world are participating in that very sme game. The indie pop bands say they are pop, but they are also dictating what they think pop should be. In Kenickie's case it was female fronted punk pop. In St Ettienne's case it was sugary production and soft skippy beats. Unfortunately - like men - you cannot change the nature of pop.

― Pete, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The longevity of this debate is astounding. The whole dichotomy is a non-issue (I can say this cos Mr Hopkins, the Gothfynder General, has already certified it), and what Tom E is saying is uncontroversial and plainly the case. The only real question is - whence the *motivation* for such a stubborn insistence that something is 'pop' and not 'indie'?

― the pinefox, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

ME. im your 'motivation.'

deal with it indie boy.

― Wyndham Earl, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't need any motivation for saying sth is pop and not indie cos I'm not saying it. Whoever is saying it, on the other hand, presumably does have some reason for saying it.

― the pinefox, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I'm not entirely sure what you're position is Wyndham, but you do seem to have very definite notions of what indie is. If you're interested in arguing the point, you might want to look at threads on ILM like Is indie a genre? and run an ILM search on the word indie at the freefind search engine (top box). Every other thread there seems to end up in an argument about what 'indie' means.

― N., Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

you're position

Arrggh - 'your position'. I was just poking Nickie for doing the same thing earlier. I am v.tired and emotional.

― N., Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Kenickie certainly = indie. Proof? Minging drummer.

― DG, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Perfect argument. I think this thread has just ended with that devestating logic. (All though thinking about it, don't all drummers ming?)

― Pete, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I see no flaws in my argument.

― DG, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

okay

NEW TANGENT FOR THE THREAD:

DRUMMERS THAT DON'T MING

i'll start: tommy lee.

― Wyndham Earl, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Larry Mullen Jr.

The drummer in the Corrs.

― the pinefox, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Dear lord, nominate somebody who knows what he or she is doing! Where's Phil Rudd when you need him?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

LARRY MULLEN JUNIOR!!!

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tara Reid. Bubbles.

― Graham, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think Larry Mullen Jr wins - he's got 2 votes, one in capitals.

― the pinefox, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Best Drummers: Nicko McBrian & Jimmy Chamberlin.

― jel, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The one in capitals should not be counted as a 'vote' for anything other than the swift arrival of men in white coats and big nets to come carry Pinefox away.

― Tom, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think "among the first to know" by the happy balloon and "en melody of an melody" by corniche camomile are two of my favourite indie pop songs.

― jel, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The problem I have with "Wake up Boo" is that I really like Everything's Allright Forever, and that just wasn't the Boo Radley's I had liked. So, I guess I like albums and not bands. Does that make me a rockcyst?

― jel, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

who the hell is tara reid anyway?

― Wyndham Earl, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

was she in the sonora pine?

― jel, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

[Josie and the Pussycats]

― Graham, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oh yeah! d'oh! I was thinking of tara jane o'neil.

― jel, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

?? Tom, you're just trying to retract your emphatic vote for Mullen.

― the pinefox, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

David Narcizo doesn't ming. Does this mean Throwing Muses weren't indie?

― RickyT, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Taken literally, ALL drummers "ming".

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Phoebe Summersquash most certainly does not ming, but Small Factory most certainly were/are indie. See also Mimi Parker.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 31 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Drummer that doesn't ming = world's nicest man = Joss

― chris, Friday, 1 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

five years pass...

old ilx = fuckin weird

― acrobat, Thursday, 28 June 2007 08:23 (eighteen years ago)

Who knew you could get so much of a thread out of "Don't Falter"??

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 28 June 2007 08:29 (eighteen years ago)

"Don't Falter" is a great, great single. You'd have to be Giles Coren not to love it.

For me the punctum is that lovely, exuberantly mannered 1961 single-note guitar line which runs throughout the song, like Michael Cox at the London Palladium. Striped jackets, reefers in the back pocket, probably was Derek Bailey.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 28 June 2007 08:31 (eighteen years ago)

Good to see old ILM stopped posting about how great the Manics were to have this thread.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 28 June 2007 08:33 (eighteen years ago)

I've heard the tune a few times at Club Poptimism so presumably some folk upthread have changed their minds since then.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 28 June 2007 08:34 (eighteen years ago)

I are Giles Coren, apparently.

― Noodle Vague, Thursday, 28 June 2007 08:35 (eighteen years ago)

old ilx =! weird, it is simply that as ppl get older (some get wiser too) the things that are most imporatant to them change.

― Grandpont Genie, Thursday, 28 June 2007 08:37 (eighteen years ago)

it's weird cos the world these people were in seems to be kind of gone. belle and sebastian fans be hitting 30 now. hell "is this it" will be six years old this year.

― acrobat, Thursday, 28 June 2007 08:44 (eighteen years ago)

Aye, we've all made quite a journey since the 2001 days.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 28 June 2007 08:47 (eighteen years ago)

it's always me who plays don't falter and tom and pete look daggers at me every time...

― CarsmileSteve, Thursday, 28 June 2007 09:38 (eighteen years ago)

They're mental, you're right.

― accentmonkey, Thursday, 28 June 2007 09:41 (eighteen years ago)

o brave new world, and all that

― never acid again, Thursday, 28 June 2007 09:45 (eighteen years ago)

i wonder if they'd called ILX Poptimism or Pop! or Sussed or Freaky Trigger message board or something whether it would be like this thread nowadays.

― acrobat, Thursday, 28 June 2007 09:47 (eighteen years ago)

ILM still is isn't it?

― CarsmileSteve, Thursday, 28 June 2007 09:50 (eighteen years ago)

not really.

― acrobat, Thursday, 28 June 2007 09:52 (eighteen years ago)

it's always me who plays don't falter and tom and pete look daggers at me every time...

the correct response to this is, obv, "it's only a song" in the manner of Mike replying to Rick's "I still say locking girls in trunks is politically unsound" on the Young Ones' versh of Living Doll.

― Grandpont Genie, Thursday, 28 June 2007 09:52 (eighteen years ago)

Well, I feel sorry for the elephant!

― Mark G, Thursday, 28 June 2007 10:00 (eighteen years ago)

Come on guys.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 28 June 2007 10:00 (eighteen years ago)

aaaaa - gaaaaa --

― Mark G, Thursday, 28 June 2007 10:02 (eighteen years ago)

good song as is it's older sister 'Lonely Girl'

― blueski, Thursday, 28 June 2007 10:29 (eighteen years ago)

I still don't like Don't Falter, but I think I have reconciled it merely to a genereal dislike of Lauren Laverne rather then any qualities this single does or does not have.

― Pete, Thursday, 28 June 2007 10:42 (eighteen years ago)

I am not sure I would be as vociferous about it now either (or take quite so much time arguing about it).

I enjoyed reading the thread though.

I am amazed nobody used the word "twee"!

― Groke, Thursday, 28 June 2007 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

HURRAH. it's still a lovely song.

― Alan, Thursday, 28 June 2007 12:17 (eighteen years ago)

> belle and sebastian fans be hitting 30 now

ha ha ha. (SOBS).

― koogs, Thursday, 28 June 2007 12:20 (eighteen years ago)

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