Buffy VS. Firefly - FIGHT IT OUT, YOU LOT!

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Spinning off from an ILC thread gone horribly awry....

I will take no part in this thread.

― Richard Baez (Johnny Logic), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

I am pretty "meh" on Buffy, but Firefly, that is probably my favorite 1-season-only TV series that ever was and ever will be.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

Nickalicious OTM

GINA TORRES, PEOPLE, YOU KNOW I'M RIGHT

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

crazy talk. (I have never seen Firefly.)

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

firefly is pretty mediocre

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

CLEARLY ILX IS MY TRUE HOME.

Firefly gets no love on ILC. Goddamn fanboys.

I think Firefly's success, though, is it's brevity. Buffy lasted a long time and reached spectacular highs, but also the cheesiest of the lows.

― Jessie the "ZOMG MAL'S BUTT" Monster (scarymonsterrr), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:00 (nineteen years ago)

The things they did - the camera trickery where they made the CG look like badly filmed 70s action movies (the in-and-out of focus thing, lens-flare like a motherfucker), the amazing score (although I kinda HATE the theme song), it was a very adventurous TV show, at least as far as the tech stuff. Also, Wash & Jayne were waaaaaaaay funnier than Xander and Willow.

xpost and GINA TORRES IN TIGHT, TIGHT PANTS

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf000/f080/f08073k1vke.jpg

whatever happened to that Buffy spin-off series set in the UK? the all-Giles, all-the-time one? I think they were gunna call it "Ripper" or somesuch.

― kingfish du lac (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

maybe firefly suffers unfairly from my seeing it around the time i got into nu-battlestar, which completely blows it away

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

No one has yet answered my question of whether Miss Isringhausen from Deadwood takes off her top in "Serenity."

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

I think the one place where they were trying too hard with Firefly was the cussing in Chinese, not usually as funny as I guess they were trying for, but at least that's more interesting that "darn".

I'm sorry Austin but that's a nay-no my damie.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:05 (nineteen years ago)

are firefly and nu-battlestar anything like(read: as bad as) those seriously mediocre little post-ST:Voyager syndicated shows that seem to inhabit the Sci-Fi Network so much?

― kingfish du lac (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:05 (nineteen years ago)

Okay, that's all I need from this thread. Thanks.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:06 (nineteen years ago)

battlestar is in a totally different class, kingfish. check it out. firefly is marginally better than one of those shows.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:07 (nineteen years ago)

I think it's a shame that one of the most awesome characters in Firefly was only in the very last episode ("Aren't you Alliance?"..."I suppose I am sort've like a lion.")

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:07 (nineteen years ago)

If by "marginally" you mean "exponentially".

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

Is the Baldwin that played Jayne one of THE Baldwins?

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

also, i blame one of my best friends for personally keeping afloat all those aforementioned mediocre sci-fi syndicated shows

― kingfish du lac (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

xpost

No, he's not.

― Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:13 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, one last thing that I discovered while I was trying to research the above question

"Goofs: Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): While the crew of Serenity is preparing for the heist at the beginning of the movie, Jayne says, "Spare clips in the rear hatch." What he places in the hatch, however, is actually a magazine. It's not an uncommon mistake to call a magazine a clip, but Jayne is a weapons master. Any one with as much knowledge about guns as Jayne would not call a magazine a clip."

Nearly as good as

"Goofs: Errors made by characters (possibly deliberate errors by the filmmakers): In Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism, prayer beads include two strands which hang on the left hand and three strands on the right while chanting with palms pressed together. When Donna is seen in profile chanting for Meadows, her prayer beads appear opposite from the correct arrangement with three strands on the left hand."

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:13 (nineteen years ago)

Firefly was pretty reat (mostly for the joeks, and Gina Torres), and I never got into Buffy.

Is the Baldwin that played Jayne one of THE Baldwins?

I think he's unrelated, which is weird 'cause he looks vaguely Baldwin-y!

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:16 (nineteen years ago)

I like them both, I can't really be bothered to argue about one being better than the other.

― GILLY'S BAGG'EAR VANCE OF COUPARI (Ex Leon), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:17 (nineteen years ago)

(I had something very mean about "Buffy is better" fans to say here but in the interest of not being a dick I deleted it.)

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:18 (nineteen years ago)

reat = great. or neat, whatever.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:20 (nineteen years ago)

I thought you were doing your Scooby Doo.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 17:23 (nineteen years ago)

Firefly hottness is all about Saffron

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 18:19 (nineteen years ago)

oh come on, Dan, now you just have to say it.

I believe Buffy is better than Firefly on the general principle that Buffy is better than everything, never having seen Firefly.

― horseshoe (horseshoe), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 18:33 (nineteen years ago)

Didn't it turn out "Saffron"'s name was, like, Matilda or something?

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

I just find that Buffy had more genuinely touching moments and you felt more for the characters (Joyce's death, the surrogate father-daughter relationships between Giles/Buffy and The Mayor/Faith, Xander, Tara's death), whereas Firefly's kinda cool and funny, but that's it. It's like merely watching a TV show.

― alex in montreal (alex in montreal), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:02 (nineteen years ago)

it was more complex & interesting in every way, with much better characters. i mean in firefly's defense it only had 14 episodes whereas buffy had hundreds to develop that stuff.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:04 (nineteen years ago)

i was totally floored by joyce's death :( :(

lame, i know.

― elmo argonaut (allocryptic), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:06 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe I'm just a sucker or something, but I think Firefly was very touching. Especially the episode with the kid that fought in the war with Mal/Gina Torres' ass in tight pants.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:08 (nineteen years ago)

I mean Zoe.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:08 (nineteen years ago)

i was totally floored by joyce's death :( :(

me too... it was AMAZINGLY done. one of the best treatments of death i've ever seen in tv or movies.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe I'm just a sucker or something, but I think Firefly was very touching. Especially the episode with the kid that fought in the war with Mal/Gina Torres' ass in tight pants.

i liked that ep too. that one and the one where they run out of fuel, which was probably my favourite.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

all you firefly people who've never seen nü-battlestar should hit that shit PRONTO. start with the mini-series. so good.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:15 (nineteen years ago)

x-post i kept it together until the scene where Anya's trying to understand the concept of her death

― alex in montreal (alex in montreal), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:17 (nineteen years ago)

I have all the Nu-Battlestar episodes! I like that in a different way though, I don't like any of the characters nearly as much as like Jayne or River, but the story is more, I don't know, WORLD-SHATTERINGLY EPIC, which appeals to my latent D&D nerd sensitivities.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:21 (nineteen years ago)

I've seen nu-BSG, I don't see the comparison. One's a serious, straightforward sci-fi space show, the other's not.

Battlestar Galactica is more like a well-written, well-done Babylon 5 (from what I've seen, it was too dense to get into after a year or two), Firefly was like what's going on outside the cantina in Star Wars.

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:23 (nineteen years ago)

Milo is completely OTM, both of those series have aims/aspirations that are sufficiently different enough to make comparing them as useful as comparing "Maude" to "Murder, She Wrote".

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:26 (nineteen years ago)

they are both sci-fi shows about renegades with no real homes who live in spaceships. you're fooling yourself if you think that's not similar enough to warrant a comparison in a casual convo!!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:28 (nineteen years ago)

How is this even a question? Firefly has some Wheedony niceness, in plenty of spots, and I like to think that if it had survived a little longer it could have become really terrific (Buffy didn't really become itself until after the first season, too), but it's just in no way comparable; it's like an excellent deployment of a lot of genre stuff, really remarkably tweaked, but it just can't sustain the level of wholeness and reference to the real world that made Buffy so distinctly not genre-bound. Most of the work in Buffy exists in the drops and distance back and forth between "real" and "genre"; Firefly is actually kind of awkward about Wheedon's tendency to try that, because in the end the human element to it is still very broad and genre-ish, the same geek-beloved rugged-individualist heroics as ever.

I like the way Nick says he "kinda" hates the Firefly theme songs, as if anyone could possibly love it. Except that I kinda love it, because it's so fucking bad and it's Wheedon himself -- that theme song is like the equivalent of opening every episode with home-video footage of Wheedon at age 14 doing something every bit as geek-lame as that Star Wars video kid. You can't take the sky from him.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:31 (nineteen years ago)

Plus it raises important questions about the mechanics and logistics of sea-boiling (would you use some kind of immersed heating rod, or what?) and what effects the resulting vapor might have re: sky-taking.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:34 (nineteen years ago)

See plus actually, theme-song-wise, the funny part is that he'd previously had (for instance) Spike in the Buffy musical singing something equally lamely "manly" and overwrought, but had it constantly propped up in such a way that it was clearly the character who had those qualities -- Spike was constantly presented as actually being rather lame, pretentious, and affected in a lot of the routines that would normally be used to make the character seem straightforwardly "cool." And there are bits of Firefly dialogue where Wheedon seems to be falling into that same thing just out of habit, but it's largely incompatible with the way he's set up the characters and the format; it couldn't really develop anything like the richness that Buffy wound up getting out of that.

Plus killing the Shepherd in the movie was just totally lame as fuck.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:41 (nineteen years ago)

it was very "uncle owen! aunt veru!"

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:42 (nineteen years ago)

I love that fucking theme song YOU BASTARDS.

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:43 (nineteen years ago)

Has James Marsters done anything else of note or of similar value?

― kingfish du lac (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

My father continues to ask me once every couple of months if there's a Firefly soundtrack, he loves the theme song. I like it because it's funny, and clearly meant to be.

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:46 (nineteen years ago)

I was mad that they didn't use it for the movie. It's not the same without the fiddly cheesiness of the theme song.

― GILLY'S BAGG'EAR VANCE OF COUPARI (Ex Leon), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:47 (nineteen years ago)

s1ocki, we are not "fooling ourselves", we are "being knowledgeable about genre entertainment". Which might be self-esteem-speak for "fooling ourselves" but that's another conversation.

The mean thing I was going to say before was that every time I think I'm getting overly nostalgic for my high school years and the merry band of misfits I ran with, I run into Buffy superfans and realize I'm not actually that bad.

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:51 (nineteen years ago)

Buffy Superfans writ large: forums.televisionwithoutpity.com

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:54 (nineteen years ago)

Hahahaha I wasn't going to go there but since you did...

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 19:55 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, I'm sure Firefly devotees are much cooler.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:00 (nineteen years ago)

I once read a Xander/Spike slash fic that was actually quite raunchy & hott. This was during the murkiest depths of my Buffy fandom, but I NEVER considered writing any slash, though.

― elmo argonaut (allocryptic), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:00 (nineteen years ago)

Hahahaha I wasn't going to go there but since you did...

That is one of the scariest places on earth.

― GILLY'S BAGG'EAR VANCE OF COUPARI (Ex Leon), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:04 (nineteen years ago)

i'm glad nabisco showed up.

― jeffrey (johnson), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:05 (nineteen years ago)

The Shephard's death in Serenity was totally unnecessary and poorly written, but Wash's death was actually one of the more tragic and shocking deaths I've ever seen. It also set up the possibility for Mal/Zoe romance in the now-never-gonna-happen second season.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:07 (nineteen years ago)

This actually doesn't have anything to do with Firefly, nabisco; there is a non-trivial cult of maniacs who privilege Buffy in precisely the same frightening way that people privilege Xena or Doctor Who. The fact that you're acting AFFRONTED because some of us prefer Firefly speaks directly to that point.

Obsession is never cool; if it was, it wouldn't be called "obsession".

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:07 (nineteen years ago)

It would be called awesomebsession!

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:09 (nineteen years ago)

Umm Dan I wasn't acting affronted, I was expressing an opinion that this race is not even close. That could be a result of my overestimating Buffy or your underestimating it.

I have never watching Xena or Doctor Who, so I'd have a hard time telling you if their maniacs are right or not; obviously I tend to think Buffy's maniacs are kind of onto something.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:12 (nineteen years ago)

I think this would be a more fair comparison also if Firefly had managed to draw itself out for 8 astoundingly wtf seasons.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:13 (nineteen years ago)

Angel, otoh, can drown in a toilet for all I care.

― elmo argonaut (allocryptic), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:15 (nineteen years ago)

I'm completely on the fence re: Buffy and Firefly/Serenity. Two of my favorite shows, I find depth and resonance in both of them in almost equal measure. Mal's affection toward his crew is just as touching as Buffy's or Giles's toward the gang.

They're great in their own terms (and the BSG comparison is still spurious).

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:16 (nineteen years ago)

Nabs, you started your post with "How is this even a question?" That implies some level of affront to me. What is the point of asking that if not to signal a significant amount of antipathy towards/disgust with the fact that this conversation is even happening?

Up until they decided that the entire show was going to be all explicit lesbian subtext, I enjoyed Xena a lot. I was totally obsessed with Doctor Who, to the point where I own 200+ books of original Doctor Who fiction. I still have never had any desire to go to conventions or make fan stories. (I did write some X-Men fan fiction at one point but that was mostly because I was thinking that I was going to write a novel in my spare time and I wanted to get back into the writing habit. Also I was obsessed.) I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the level of scrutiny these shows get but, since I don't have a psychology degree, I'm having a difficult time articulating why.

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:26 (nineteen years ago)

heh, i was wondering how long before this thread brought up slashfic

― kingfish du lac (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:31 (nineteen years ago)

Obsessive fanboyism, dress-up, badly written fan-fic are one thing - the way TWOP posters (or obsessive Buffy/Firefly/whatever fans) react to fictional events as real-life affronts is just creepy and bizarre.

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:32 (nineteen years ago)

I'd have thought "how is this even a question" would read as roughly equivalent to the common non-disgusted expression "no question." I.e., yeah, I think Buffy is better than Firefly to a degree that I'm surprised many people would think otherwise. And in relative terms I'd estimate myself as distinctly low down on the Buffy-fandom scale -- I don't even own a single piece of Buffy product! Though if anyone wants to give me the bunny-suit Anya action figure for my birthday, it's in August.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:34 (nineteen years ago)

(haha I am not-so-secretly trying to out Nabisco as a Buffyperv and it's working)

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:35 (nineteen years ago)

did they ever make an action fig for Amy?

― kingfish du lac (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:37 (nineteen years ago)

One thing that interests me about Buffy superfandom, actually, is what you're talking about, Milo, the way that some people can begin to treat a show's world and characters as real and existing independently. Because that both surprises me and totally doesn't, when it comes to Buffy. It surprises me because so much of the show goes on on the level of writing, in all those drops between naturalism and genre, and in all of these very plainly formal devices. On the other hand, it doesn't surprise me, because a lot of what all that stuff accomplishes is to develop the characters, as if the formal elements of the show are just a kind of laboratory that can be used to test "real" characters and poke at their insides and figure them how they're changing. So I dunno -- sometimes I think that superfans who perceive the thing as nearly-real are actually missing stuff about the show, like they're actually not getting part of how it works -- but then on the other hand it might be quite the opposite. (I think I will spare you connecting this thought to the whole Season 5 thing with Dawn, the whole discussion there about Dawn's "realness" and the flat-out decision that she's real, based not on some kind of logical legitimacy but just on the fact of the decision.)

Dude, Dan, what is a Buffyperv? You know full well I love Buffy a ton -- but I've never really done any hardcore geek fandom stuff about anything apart from music and books, so this is as far as I know how to go.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:43 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, when I say I don't own any Buffy product, I'm including the DVDs! (I bought the first season once, but then later I was poor, so I sold it.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:45 (nineteen years ago)

It ain't just Buffy, though, nabisco. There are people who treat Grey's Anatomy and Hope & Grace like they're real, too.

― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:45 (nineteen years ago)

(a "Buffyperv" is someone who wants a Buffy action figure so that he can do dirty, dirty things to it)

(ie, I am just giving you shit)

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:47 (nineteen years ago)

(Or rather, since I can't explicate my point to my satisfaction, I have abdicated in in favor of giving you shit.)

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:49 (nineteen years ago)

If I wanted to do dirty things, I'd be trying to get Anya in the roller-skates and hot pants!

That's Hope and Faith, Milo. But so yeah, my point is that shows like that are naturalistic, or at least adhere to their genre in a naturalistic way, so it makes sense that you might oversuspend your disbelief to the point of having them feel real. Buffy's rather formal and knowing about that stuff, so it's a little surprising to imagine the same thing happening. But like I said, the formalism tends to work to make the characters more natural and real, and -- the most basic trick to the show -- the formalism is all explained within the "rules" of the premise. (If there's a musical, it's because of a musical-demon; if Xander's good and bad qualities are suddenly embodied as different people, it's because of a glowy-stick demon; etc.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:51 (nineteen years ago)

I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the level of scrutiny these shows get

I am always reminded of the fact that it's nice NOT to know everything in, say, Tolkien. Or anything else I've ODed on (and still get fixes from). Some distance plus self-aware humor over the subject in question = healthy.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 20:58 (nineteen years ago)

dammit, i can't find the NPR bit where they interviewed folks at various universities setting up cult.studies classes around Buffy. i remember them being eager about the then-forthcoming ending, since "the text would finally be complete."

― kingfish du lac (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 21:02 (nineteen years ago)

One had 7 series of characterisation the other had just 1 pretty unfair to compare.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 21:07 (nineteen years ago)

I think Buffy had about 6 seasons of characterization and then this really long over-wrought 10-week long speech during which I mostly went to the bathroom and ate frozen pizza, but yes.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 21:11 (nineteen years ago)

whoo, you're right about that least season. that was kind of a shame.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 21:21 (nineteen years ago)

See, I didn't think the last season of Buffy was all that different from the other 6. I'm not trying to say that the writing on the show was bad, because it most emphatically was not; I do think the show gets a lot of credit for attempting stuff as opposed to succeeding at stuff, though (the musical episode being my #1 example, shit was worse than "Rent" FFS).

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 22:28 (nineteen years ago)

Dude, the Buffy musical is FAR better than Rent. And I am not one to damn Buffy with faint praise. Just sayin'.

― J (Jay), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 22:39 (nineteen years ago)

i didn't see rent!

but personally i loved the musical episode... but not so much for the music, if you follow me.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 22:55 (nineteen years ago)

firefly season 1 was better than buffy season 1.

and um, buffy wins in every other way. (come on dan, have we ever had a TS thread in which someone DIDN'T say something like "how is this even a question?" or "no contest! yall are insane!")

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 22:57 (nineteen years ago)

I've only seen a few selected episodes of Firefly; my impression is that it's a fine show, which never got the chance to turn to dismal shit like Buffy did, but it didn't really inspire me to seek out any more. The characters are cute and funny and so forth, but they're not terribly intriguing. And good lord is that theme song awful. I have friends with livejournal icons for that song. I can't understand it.

The problem with Buffy's later years is that it just became joyless. People make a big deal of the depressing storylines, but they always had those - boyfriend turning evil and terrorizing and killing your friends for half a season is pretty grim. But the characters were still lively, and seemed naturally funny, and the writers didn't have to create light-hearted moments by shoehorning in nerd jokes every few minutes. And then there were those endless speeches. By the time it was over, Anya was the only character I liked, and she was the only one who seemed to get any amusement out of the random shit happening to them. Honestly, I don't know why I kept watching until the end.

― clotpoll (Clotpoll), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 22:59 (nineteen years ago)

I liked Buffy but never watched it enough to get really into it. But I rented all of Firefly and then Serenity from Netflix and watched it all in like a weekend and dreamed about it and was mini-obsessed and was really, really bummed when Walsh died and had a crush on pretty much every cast member all at once and generally got so into it that I thought that I should probably rent all the Buffy episodes, too, since I liked what I did watch quite a bit.

Then I watched the special features on the Firefly DVDs and decided what I would really rather do is choke Josh Wheedon a little bit.

― Party Time Country Female (pullapartgirl), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 23:03 (nineteen years ago)

Love both, Buffy was better in every way, and to me, it got better in the depresso years, speeches and all. The mom's death episode was a series peak. Angel was better than either during the God-who-makes-the-whole-world-happy plot arc.

― Pete Scholtes (Pete Scholtes), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 23:31 (nineteen years ago)

Then I watched the special features on the Firefly DVDs and decided what I would really rather do is choke Josh Wheedon a little bit.

um, why??

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 23:54 (nineteen years ago)

um, who cares

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 23:56 (nineteen years ago)

um, yeah, you OTM

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 23:59 (nineteen years ago)

um, thanks

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 22 June 2006 00:01 (nineteen years ago)

http://home.teleport.com/~rasputin/ImageFiles/BeavisButthead.jpg

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 22 June 2006 00:03 (nineteen years ago)

haha.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 22 June 2006 00:06 (nineteen years ago)

i guess i mean "huh huh"

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 22 June 2006 00:07 (nineteen years ago)

Some fans some of you are if you can't even spell Whedon right, for the love of ... grumble.

I think the comparison is unfair simply due to Firefly never having had a chance to develop in the way Buffy had. If you only had S1 and the orig movie of Buffy to compare to Firefly would Buffy still best it then? No fuckin way.

I know a lot of people - a LOT of people - who were never Whedon fans of any stripe, who hated/were disinterested in Buffy and Angel and they all LOVE Firefly and Serenity. And that includes me, although I did watch a few middle seasons of Buffy and did enjoy it quite a bit, some things were really good (like Hush); but Firefly immediately and wholly hooked me in, in a way I hadn't expected it to.

I mean I dont even like westerns and I hated the theme tune, but the way they worked it all together was just... I dunno, it just worked so well. The empathy all the characters have for each other, their relationships with each other are so human and real and full of passion and humour.

It achieved in 1 season what Buffy took several to even get to. Whedon was on top of his game making Firefly IMNSFHO.

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 22 June 2006 00:18 (nineteen years ago)

in your insufficiently hostile opinion?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 22 June 2006 00:21 (nineteen years ago)

my not so fuckin' humble opinion ;)

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 22 June 2006 01:03 (nineteen years ago)

The Whedon/Mal commentary is pretty funny (the ep where the old comrade comes back to life, etc.), but he started off the final commentary (Objects in Space) with some BSy allusions to Sartre which sounded like a bit much.

― milo z (mlp), Thursday, 22 June 2006 01:16 (nineteen years ago)

Commentaries being duff are hardly a reason to dismiss a show's goodness though. I mean have you ever heard the Simpsons commentaries? If they were any drier they'd shrivel up and blow away.

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 22 June 2006 01:18 (nineteen years ago)

the cool thing about firefly was that it was a lot more like the original star trek than any of the boring spinoffs - they didn't sit around and sip earl grey and have moral debates about whether to engage with the alien cloud, they went down on planets and got into fights in bars.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 22 June 2006 01:21 (nineteen years ago)

Also they used the same spot of California desert for all planet scenes.

― Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Thursday, 22 June 2006 01:26 (nineteen years ago)

And they both star William Shatner.

― Jessie the Monster (scarymonsterrr), Thursday, 22 June 2006 01:26 (nineteen years ago)

they didn't sit around and sip earl grey and have moral debates about whether to engage with the alien cloud

:D Hahaha you rule Justyn =)

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 22 June 2006 01:45 (nineteen years ago)

I did like the barfight in ep 1 (or 2?) of Firefly, the bit where someone was chucked through a window, total old-western cliche style, only the window was a holographic one so he just sort of "fuzzed" through it. Classic roffles. I knew at that moment I'd love the series.

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 22 June 2006 01:46 (nineteen years ago)

The moment where I knew I'd love the series was near the end of that same episode train robbery episode where Mal is telling Torture Guy's #2 man that he's giving the money back, so Torture Guy better not follow them and wreak vengeance. #2 gets all, "Run if you like, dog! We will hunt you until the ends of the universe! No where will be safe!" so Mal says, "Okay" and tosses him into the ship's running engine and grabs #3, who goes "Leave you alone, right. No problem!"

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Thursday, 22 June 2006 02:04 (nineteen years ago)

Buffy so distinctly not genre-bound.

This would be a better argument if Buffy didn't have a fight in every single episode EVEN THE ONE WHERE JOYCE DIED (which isn't the one where Joyce died, but you know what I mean).

I love the Firefly themesong! It's not harder to love than many anthems.

Haha the funny thing is Whedon hated the barfight and didn't want to start the first episode with it, the network basically held a gun to his head to get him to write it.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 22 June 2006 06:20 (nineteen years ago)

As much as I hated the Firefly theme I have found myself humming it a lot lately, i mean its so hummable! You sort of do that "downgang dannangaannng" guitar bit.

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 22 June 2006 06:25 (nineteen years ago)

So yes, Firefly is winnar, nyer.

― Trayce (trayce), Thursday, 22 June 2006 06:27 (nineteen years ago)

They both rock in totally different ways. I suspect I will re-watch Buffy (& Angel) more often than Firefly due to greater perve-factor and greater teenage-angst-factor.

Actually, this may not be true - I suspect I will re-read Buffy (& Angel) slash more often than I wil re-watch Firefly. I haven't googled for Firefly slash yet.

― miele kitty (miele), Thursday, 22 June 2006 06:33 (nineteen years ago)

well, buffy doesn't have a fight in the episode where she's still dead! ... i think.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 22 June 2006 07:27 (nineteen years ago)

No, she completely does.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 22 June 2006 07:33 (nineteen years ago)

That was my point, like, that even this lovely heartwrenching episode has to have a vampire-vs-buffy fite stuck in the end.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 22 June 2006 07:42 (nineteen years ago)

oh right, i didn't mean "the body," i meant the first episode of season 6, after she's sacrificed herself. but i think willow and the others have a vamp fight, so that really doesn't count.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 22 June 2006 07:52 (nineteen years ago)

he started off the final commentary (Objects in Space) with some BSy allusions to Sartre which sounded like a bit much.

Oh man... that commentary turns an awesome episode into an OMFG THIS IS INCREDIBLE!!! episode.

― ledge (ledge), Thursday, 22 June 2006 08:17 (nineteen years ago)

Oooh! I saw Firefly, the pilot episode only the other day. Here are the minutes:

00:01 - Okay, this is the thing I've been told about. Right they're shooting each other... Hmmm...

00:10 - Right, I have no idea what's going on.

00:15 - Will somebody shoot someone or something? There aren't even any aliens in this!

00:20 - Okay cowboys in outer space - this is ludicrous! And all they've done so far is talk to each other!

00:25 - Ooh, hang on wait this is exciting

00:35 - SHIT SHIT! FUCK!!!

00:45 - This is some pretty cool stuff right here

01:00 - Okay, next episode plz.

― dog latin (dog latin), Thursday, 22 June 2006 09:19 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah firefly is a few hours of joy, then you realise that there will not be another series and it's like losing a girlfriend after a 3 month whirlwind romance.

movie = ex sex.

― Jarlr'mai (jarlrmai), Thursday, 22 June 2006 09:26 (nineteen years ago)

Oh for Pete's sake, I was making a joke. I found Joss Weedin's commentaries and the little shorts featuring him to be supremely irritating and while I enjoyed his creations, I would never want to spend any time with him. I'll probably still rent Buffy on DVD one day, if I get around to it.

― Party Time Country Female (pullapartgirl), Thursday, 22 June 2006 11:54 (nineteen years ago)

00:35 - SHIT SHIT! FUCK!!!

hahaha totally...I LOVE the 2-hr pilot!!!

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Thursday, 22 June 2006 12:14 (nineteen years ago)

was it really two hours?

― dog latin (dog latin), Thursday, 22 June 2006 12:18 (nineteen years ago)

Fox basically did everything they could to fuck this show over, I think; it's amazing how much better everything scans when you actually watch the episodes in order.

(xpost: Yeah, the real pilot was 2 hrs. The first episode they ever aired was the train robbery one.)

― Jesus Dan (Dan Perry), Thursday, 22 June 2006 12:19 (nineteen years ago)

The true pilot episode began with this total overwhelming holy shit flashback to Zoe & Mal in the war, wherein all kinds of Alliance ass motherfuckers rolled in and they were totally boned and it was totally fucking heartbreaking.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Thursday, 22 June 2006 12:20 (nineteen years ago)

"Firefly" is fun.

Things better than "Buffy":

1-Kittens
2-Batman
3-Sex (or so I've been told)
4-E.M. Forster
5-"Planet Rock"

...AND THAT'S IT.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 22 June 2006 12:21 (nineteen years ago)

And then they picked up a bunch of passengers, which included: Shep, Simon & River (River was like cryogenically frozen in a box), and an Alliance mole. I can't believe they never aired this episode, it is SO fundamental.

xpost

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Thursday, 22 June 2006 12:22 (nineteen years ago)

There's this moment when River first pops out of deep freeze and she's naked and everybody's like "wtf Simon you perv!" and she's screaming and freaking out and he's like "dudes, she's my sister" and then there's the weepy ass violin music.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Thursday, 22 June 2006 12:23 (nineteen years ago)

But yeah, that is an awesome moment.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Thursday, 22 June 2006 12:24 (nineteen years ago)

Some admissions.
Firefly was a really good beginning. Good enough to get me to turn up to the premiere showing of Serenity at the Edinburgh Film Festival last year.
Buffy is one my very favourite television shows ever. I own the entire series on DVD. I was sad enough to track down a version of the original pilot (terrible, btw), sad enough to read pre-transmission recaps, sad enough to download episodes before they were even broadcast in the US.
I even put up with the messes of the last couple of seasons because I love seasons 2 & 3 so much.

Now maybe at some point Firefly might have been able to have that effect on me if it had lasted longer, but as it is, any comparison between the two shows is only going to favour Buffy simply because it had the time to fully develop it's characters, to properly explore it's themes and time to make a permanent mark on popular culture.

So, yeah. Buffy wins over Firefly.

― Greig (treefell), Thursday, 22 June 2006 12:38 (nineteen years ago)

The did show the (Firefly) pilot, I thought, they just cut it in half and made it episodes 10&11 or thereabouts.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 22 June 2006 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

"We have a fight" is not even nearly the same thing as "genre-bound" -- there's a difference between "genre" and "consistent internal format," particularly when the internal format often gets used as a framework where you can substitute and alter the parts to toy with meanings. Buffy has lots of internal consistency and genre underpinning, but I think a lot of the time it's getting flipped around to highlight the non-genre stuff, or to mash genre with "real" in strange ways, or whatever else.

Plus actually I didn't feel like the vampire in The Body was shoehorned in as "the obligatory fight" -- I'm guessing part of what Whedon was shooting for there (not hugely successfully, but not badly) was a "sudden" reminder that despite the entire episode being really minutely devoted to JOYCE IS DEAD, the vampire/demon dangers were still there to be dealt with (and to save Dawn from), so that that's the moment where Buffy really truly fully becomes Dawn's keeper, despite Slaying being the last thing on her mind; it's not super-fantastic, or anything, but there's definitely something in the way she kills the vampire with that giant scary-ass autopsy saw -- something way more graphic and hardcore than just about any other slaying on the show -- that seems to get at something decent.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 22 June 2006 15:48 (nineteen years ago)

Like I guess because that fight involves none of the usual fight-choreography or Buffy-confidence or wisecracking or whatever -- it's more of a "real" human fight, complete with freaked out "get the fuck off of me" medical-saw beheading. Also total metaphor-shot of Buffy on the ground grappling with vampire while Dawn stares at the body, totally ignoring fight.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 22 June 2006 15:53 (nineteen years ago)

Buffy but only, as has been said by many, because of nostalgia nand the fact that Firefly never got the chance to outgrow it's beginnings in the same way that Buffy did.

And because the astonishing retcon that accompanied Dawn's introduction actually meant something.

― Stone Monkey (Stone Monkey), Thursday, 22 June 2006 17:00 (nineteen years ago)

Jeez--Buffy by 130 or so episodes.

But Firefly had the potential to eclipse it, what with it going beyond rite-of-passage drama.

Then again, Buffy is now hanging in Europe with The Immortal while the new Hellmouth in Cleveland is making noises.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Thursday, 22 June 2006 20:59 (nineteen years ago)

And a big yes to the vampire fight in The Body--a brilliant grace note that clearly dilineates the dif between fantasy death--brought down with difficulty by the aforementioned large saw-thing, but dealt with none the less--and 'real' death, with Dawn reaching but never touching the mystery of Joyce's dead flesh.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Thursday, 22 June 2006 21:03 (nineteen years ago)

six years pass...

re-watching firefly -- it starts off weaker than i remember -- first few eps are kind of mediocre BUT once you get into the meat of it, this is still great stuff. the story arc with mal's wife is still awesome.

― i guess i'd just rather listen to canned heat? (ian), Monday, 11 March 2013 07:20 (thirteen years ago)

THIS… IS THE BALLAD OF JAYNE

― j., Monday, 11 March 2013 08:26 (thirteen years ago)

one month passes...

how come no one told me that Mal is now a cop on that tv show CASTLE?

― i guess i'd just rather listen to canned heat? (ian), Friday, 10 May 2013 00:31 (twelve years ago)

how come you're the only one who didn't know

― j., Friday, 10 May 2013 04:55 (twelve years ago)

how come no one told me sarah michelle gellar was in scooby doo and scooby doo part 2

― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Friday, 10 May 2013 04:59 (twelve years ago)

It's really among her best work.

― how's life, Friday, 10 May 2013 09:31 (twelve years ago)

Re: Castle, the writers incorporate references to Firefly periodically in the show. Castle's dressed up as a space pirate for Halloween, then chided by his daughter that he needs to move on from that outfit, as the show's been off the air for a long time. A show this season had Castle and Beckett at a sci-fi convention, with some other nods to Firefly.

For "meta" nerds, the Nikki Heat books "written by" Castle have characters named Malcolm and Reynolds. The plot/character interplay is fun between the 'real' Castle/Beckett, the fictional Rook/Heat, the former inspiring the plots of the latter, and then the real-world sly references.

― the body of a spider... (scampering alpaca), Friday, 10 May 2013 15:48 (twelve years ago)

ian, you're going to wish you never heard of Castle

― Nhex, Friday, 10 May 2013 15:52 (twelve years ago)

haha i only noticed it cuz i'm visiting my dad for a week and he likes to watch it. i didn't think it was particularly good, but maybe that was just because i kept thinking of malcolm reynolds.

― i guess i'd just rather listen to canned heat? (ian), Friday, 10 May 2013 15:54 (twelve years ago)

Castle's dressed up as a space pirate for Halloween, then chided by his daughter that he needs to move on from that outfit, as the show's been off the air for a long time

ha!

― hoospanic GANGSTER musician (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 10 May 2013 16:05 (twelve years ago)

it's even sillier IIRC - she says something like "didn't you wear that outfit five years ago? it's time to move on!"

― Nhex, Friday, 10 May 2013 16:55 (twelve years ago)

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