Come anticipate English football's exciting new era under Steve McClaren with me

www.fandmpublications.co.uk/pages/EveningStandardHeadlineMaker.htm

Chuffed for JT. We're all anticipating a one minute's silence from the Grievers at the Charity Shield on Sunday.

xpost

(Old Trafford, 16 August)

Goalkeepers:
Robinson (Tottenham), Kirkland (Liverpool), Foster (Man Utd).

Defenders:
Bridge (Chelsea), Brown (Man Utd), Carragher (Liverpool), A Cole (Arsenal), Dawson (Tottenham), Ferdinand (Man Utd), G Neville (Man Utd), P Neville (Everton), Terry (capt, Chelsea), Young (Charlton).

Midfielders:
Downing (Middlesbrough), Gerrard (Liverpool), Hargreaves (Bayern Munich), Jenas (Tottenham), Lampard (Chelsea), Lennon (Tottenham), Richardson (Man Utd), Wright-Phillips (Chelsea).

Strikers:
Ashton (West Ham), Bent (Charlton), Crouch (Liverpool), Defoe (Tottenham).

That's one way of looking at it, the other is to say when Owen Hargreaves is your best player then it's time to go back to the drawing board

Kirkland is on loan at Wigan
Foster is on loan at Watford

My dears, the dark ages are departed and we face the bright dawn of a new era.

Kevin Nolan
Scott Parker
Gary O'Neil
Nigel Reo-Coker

Also will McClaren bring back England B Internationals, to give players too old for England U21 more international experience ? i.e primarily players aged 22, 23, 24, 25

Should he?

B internationals can get stood on as far as I'm concerned, what a waste of time. You can field some over-21s as part of the under-21s, if you're desperate.

Gary O'Neil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_O'Neil

Harry tips O'Neil for England honours
http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/060718/1/ljho.html

I want to know what you think about the burning 'B' internationals issue, but I want to see evidence of you thinking systemically, please. You don't have to show your workings.

[Exeter City will slump into mid table obscurity. Oxford United and Stevenage Boro will get promoted.]

England B internationals, bring them back with say Germany, France, Italy in a mini league: home and away fixures through the season.

Gives a change for fringe players to impress in an international context.

I expect to see it announced next week.

You might be right about City being mid-table (and you're definitely right that I've been paying attention to that not the Premiership, what do you expect?) although your opinion seems to coincide with every other pre-season forecast and they usually turn out, y'know, wrong.

I wouldn't have dropped him though, apart from his trademark telescopic passes, he seeems to be quite good with the younger players, boosting thie confidence, giving them nicknames, etc.

Perhaps McClaren can find him a role somewhere. Such as running the tuckshop.

"On the bus after the game Wayne asked me: 'What do you think about the wink?'

"I said: 'Honestly, Wazza, if we were playing Spain and [Liverpool team-mates] Xabi Alonso or Luis Garcia winked at the referee or gave a signal for me to be sent off, I'd never speak to them again.'"

to be fair, though, i was chatting to xabi, and i asked him about it, and he said "of course, stevo, but you forget one thing of course, as a foreign footballer, it is important to say 'of course', this is important, of course", and, to be honest, i had to agree with him, to be fair. to be honest, it was important to him, and to all the lads. its a new season now, though, and, to be honest, with a little systems thinking, and matty taylor in defence, and plank sven out, i think we have a real chance

Wtf.

The guy is from the same town as me, they said "a history of mental illness", leading to much local speculation about whether it was a well known local weirdo or not.

Perhaps you should have made THIS THREAD England manager then, ho ho ho!

I might watch the highlights tonight but only if it sounsd like it was a good game.

The England frontline is pretty depressing. I'm sure Bent and Defoe are relieved but of course there's a real sense of 'well there's bloody no-one else anyway'.

Daft to ask perhaps but did the gunman KNOW that it was Steve Staunton he was confronting? (come OFF it hapless TWUNT SteveM is told).

1. This will be a dogged, tenacious, unnattractive England performance of the kind we haven't seen for some time. As opposed to a timid, insipid and unattractive England performance like we've been seeing for years.

2. Dropping Beckham and making Terry captain are good signs. If one thing categorised the Eriksson era it was indulgence of top players, the feeling that if you play the best 11 players in the country something wonderful will automatically happen. The midfield didn't function in the slightest - putting Gerrard out right removes that. Beckham will be able to curl in free kicks and pinpoint crosses til the day he dies. Not much use if he can't run enough to get into the positions to make them. I hope there's a real 'no one is undroppable' attitude to McClaren's reign.

3. At some point Lampard will be removed with Gerrard playing in front of Hargreaves and Lennon/Downing on the wings. That could be interesting.

4. Jermaine Defoe will score.

Something still irks me, though. Two words: 'European champions'

*long, bitter laugh*

Defoe isn't going to score btw.

Disappointed Defoe didn't score but he looks like being a regular in the team for a year at least. He did very well to set up Lampard's goal as well.

Also, well done for actually making use of Rio Ferdinand's ability on the ball rather than getting him to scoop it forward to whoever. That might be the Venables influence - I remember him talking about playing Rio in front of Campbell and Southgate as early as 2002.

Mentions of Wayne Rooney were conspicuous by their absence, weren't they?

Speaking of Rooney, I still think his red card against Porto was one of the most laughable refereeing decisions I've ever seen. And I'm not even CLOSE to being a Man U fan.

NSFW. Bad 688.

villa fans, yesterday, after hearing they have a new owner

leaving party for ellis

Hmmm...when rooney comes back, will he be ahead of crouch? crouch's international goalscoring record is miles better, let's remember.

i wouldn't get too excited about this - it's the new management factor, i think. ie. when a regime becomes stagnant (like the sven one) a change in management will result in a short burst of good form, regardless of who takes over (like when sven started well, and keegan also with that 3-1 win over poland). (see also recent domestic examples stuart pearce and glenn roeder - pearce was found out, roeder will be)

some changes that needed to be made, and wouldn't have under sven (like dropping beckham), will be made - but i'd say in a couple of years mclaren will have his own untouchables. "why does he persist with downing/terry/gerrard regardless of form?" we will ask.

perhaps i'm being harsh, given that he has a 100% record, but i was not impressed with his work at middlesborough, and feel that he will be another underwhelming manager to add to your collection.

perhaps i'm just bitter cos ireland look so shoddy - nobody objects if i vent here on the england thread, do they? i was in the stadium, and i was most displeased - we badly need players who can keep the ball, we couldn't string more than three passes together. we were without duff, keane, given, dunne and harte, so perhaps it's understandable - but steven reid, andy o'brien, john o'shea, clinton morrison et al will be pretty regular in the team throughout the campaign, and looked hopelessly out of their depth. particularly disappointed with reid, we'd been hoping for big things from him and he barely got a kick.

I see the world cup champions were humbled at home by the mighty Croats. Germany beat Sweden comfortably again. And I REALLY should've put money on Brazil to draw 1-1 with Norway. But can you believe Belgium failed to beat Kazahkstan at home?

It's weird, I've been telling myself Ireland have no good players and are about to sink to the level of the other "home countries" apart from England, but it's only after getting thumped 4-0 at home that I actually have realised how this will happen/feel.

Our worst team ever and the most inexperienced manager we've ever had=doom. We'll be lucky to beat Slovakia or Wales, let alone Germany or the Czech Republic

Gerrard might turn out to be better on the right than Beckham anyway. He's certainly a more versatile, pacey and physical footballer and can cross well.

Phil Neville on the other hand... god knows what's going on there.

Luke Young is one of the two reasons we're still in the Premiership, Matt (the other came on for Steven Gerrard with 10 minutes left), and is a perfectly reliable deputy for the Neviller. Phil Neville is a cruelly-underrated player, eternally damned by the England fan for his one moment of utter ineptitude. Although we really, really needed putting out of our misery in that tournament, so in fact he did us a service before new humiliations could be heaped upon our ailing team.

Couldn't agree less! Not to make it sound like I really don't think Neville should be there at all, but still.

Are you talking about Euro 2000? Without that penalty England would've gone through to lose to Italy in the QF so it makes no real odds, but still, no need to over-react.

I would go further and say that *both* Nevilles have been tarnished by a combination of that error and the 'Stand up if you hate Man Yoo' brigade blinding themselves to reality in their search for a scapegoat. Gary Neville is a great defender who is also very good going forwards and whipping in crosses. Phil Neville is not someone who should be in the England first team, but is exactly the kind of player who should be in the squad - a versatile utility player.

Phil has to my knowledge only given one away.

Match of the Day will also show live and exclusive coverage of Brazil's friendly matches against Argentina and Wales in London in September.

Brazil face fellow South Americans Argentina on Sunday 3 September at Arsenal's Emirates Stadium at 1530 BST on BBC ONE.

Then on Tuesday 5 September the five-time World Cup winners take on John Toshack's Wales at Tottenham's White Hart Lane (1900 BST on BBC THREE and BBC TWO Wales).

GK
David James [England International] with Jamie Ashdown on the subs bench

Defenders
Glen Johnson RB [England International]
Andy Griffin LB [ex England U21]
Linvoy Primus CD
Sol Campbell CD [England International]

Midfield:

Mat Taylor LM [ex England U21]
Gary O'Neil CM [ex England U21]
Sean Davis CM [ex England U21]
David Thompson RM [ex England International]

Strikers
Andrew Cole [ex England International]
James Keene [Currently on loan to Swedish top flight team GAIS]

How many premiership teams could field a stronger all England starting 11?

Owen Hargreaves is really ace. I didn't know he could even shoot! Not that Andorra are good or anything. At all.

I didn't realise Andorra just bought their kits before kick-off, or something like that.

DJ Martian, do you actually have a point (other than having actually found something Portsmouth are good at, i.e. not buying loads of foreigners)? Long LONG gone are the days when clubs had lots of English players...

Is this game really more boring than Scotland v Faroes or any typical 'david v goliath' encounter that ends 5-0?

ive been wondering that for a while

(I realise everyone's gone 180 degrees on Hargreaves now, but I never thought he was that bad to start with) - xpost to Stevem.

Martian, I am aware of this but I don't see what dickwaving about how you could field a fairly rubbish England team out of your squad has to do with, well, anything really. I don't think Walter Smith is so much ignoring Hughes as doesn't need him.

I think these are £5 in Fopp.

scotland, particularly, should be pleased. i would have thought they were the typeof side who were set up to give good teams a tough game, but would never really take the small teams to the cleaners (rep of ire definitely similar in this regard), so it was nice to see them give faroes a thrashing.

could peter crouch become one of england's record goalscorers just by picking up 2 or 3 goals every time they play a rubbish team? this speculation is not intended to in any way disparage crouch, who i ADORE.

ireland, eh, i dunno. after the holland shambles, i should be encouraged. the first half WAS encouraging, and a 1-0 defeat away to world cup semi-finalists, the goal coming from a deflected free-kick, is an encouraging outcome.

germany did have a lot of chances, though, and we barely had any. and given bailed us out a few times, as per. robbie keane seriously needs to step up. such a skilful player (and captain) should not be limiting his contributions to well-taken goals against mediocre opposition.

i was also displeased with staunton's body language and sending off - it was silly of him to be so stressed and angry, so early in his tenure. we were 1-0 down with time on the clock to get an equaliser. it was not an unjust result. the referees had not been unjust. no need for a blow-up, there will surely be more stressful times than this.

maybe this is unfair to staunton, who, to be fair, coaxed a pretty good performance level from a limited bunch of players, and has been subjected to an unfair level of criticism from the likes of eamon dumb-phy.

definitely didn't like him taking kevin doyle off, though. the boy doyle done good, and stephen elliot is thoroughly uselss.

Coyne
http://www.estadao.com.br/banco/img/livre/2006/07/1162006071315132815donadoni1301.jpg

Donadoni
http://www.cmsaunders.free-online.co.uk/music/pics/flips/01.jpg

Anyway, it's EUROPE, for god's sake - everyone is going to be moderately competent, so enjoy the occasional rout. It's not we're playing American Samoa.

DJ MARTIAN I LOVE YOU.

Also, all Premiership clubs should be allowed to enter the FA Cup only at the semi-final stage, to stop world class players like Wayne Rooney and Titus Bramble being demoralised by having to play Goole Wanderers.

(Jack McConnell got similar, IIRC)

Not Goole Wanderers! West Humbersides finest are Goole TOWN (who used to have future england b international MATTY TAYLOR on the bus) plank DC are you WATCHING?

Goole Town could put out a decent England SYSTEMS Bside and beat SVEN at DRAUGHTS!

Football chant: who are you? who are you?

kilian is my favourite football pundit.

Shame about the Faroes tho really - in recent years they've actually given teams like Ireland, Germany and France a relatively tough time of it at home at least.

Thought Netherlands would score more in Luxembourg but only one shows the gap isn't always so wide anyway.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it doesn't seem to acknowledge the amount Scotland have come on in the interim. Barring goalkeeper errors, and based on the highlights for Scotland and the full game for England, but I would have wagered a decent amount of money on the Faroes putting at least two past Andorra without response based on their performances.

This was a home game though, which took place in Bologna (and remains the only England game I've ever been to).

If they're the bottom rung, then Andorra don't even know where the ladder is. The Faroes could at least assemble something which looked vaguely like a back four that understood the offside rule.

aye but the point is every now and then a minnow scores against a big team and this gives them cause enough to celebrate supposedly, despite going on to lose the game by huge margin even.

it was almost as if Motson and Lawro were moaning about their job - having to try and think of things to say about the game/opponents. Motson got thru the 'entire populaion of Andorra would easily fit inside Old Trafford' stat there was little else to muse on. bloody ingrates.

because there are c. 20 more teams in europe than there were in 1989! and with the exception of russia and ukraine and possibly croatia they are all BOBBINS. africa, asia and concacaf all have pre-qualifying, so i don't see why europe shouldn't...

Some European groups have 7 teams involved - but why not? it cuts down on the 'meaningless' friendlies. And England may not have learned any more thrashing the European Champions than they did thrashing the 132nd best footballing nation in the world.

Then they flipped over to the end of France vs Italy and I *really* wanted Fabio Cannavaro to run across the pitch at the Stade de France waving the World Cup.

england you woz rubbish, just humping the ball away aimlessly at the end. a disappointing step back from stevie g, i thought.

props to kenny miller, and peter crouch.

i was also amused to see germany win 13-0 tonight, a result which will prompt more "these sorta teams should have to qualify to play germany" bleatings.

These should always be met with

Northern Ireland 1 England 0

and now

Northern Ireland 3 Spain 2

"Well, these days there's no easy games in internati... *gunshot*

1. Brazil
2. France
3. Argentina
4. England
5. Italy
6. Holland
7. Czech Republic
8. Germany
9. Portugal
10. Spain

Selected others:

34. Scotland
43. Republic of Ireland (shared with Iran)
58. Northern Ireland
62. Wales

As for England, we need more Scott Parker and less (i.e. NONE WHATSOEVER) of Stewart bloody Downing.

I think Wales should burn Craig Bellamy and play Slovakia for his ashes, in future.

Our worst team ever and the most inexperienced manager we've ever had=doom. We'll be lucky to beat Slovakia or Wales, let alone Germany or the Czech Republic.

said ronan upthread - but last night was even WORSE than that. even the pessimists would have thought we'd get a draw, or even a narrow victory. as long as i've been watching irish football, we've been in contention to qualify for tournaments right up until the last game, looks like those days are gone, once we get our asses kicked by czech rep on wednesday, every other game in the group is just for "pride" - qualification ruled out 20 months before the tournament itself even kicks off. i can't remember being this upset about a football match, and we can't play the "transition" card or the "weakest set of irish players for years" card, because this was CYPRUS!!! who the fuck concedes five goals to fucking cyprus? dunne and o'brien suspended for the czech game (although i can't say i'm terribly upset about the latter), who plays centre half now? sean st. ledger? john o'shea? i'm pissed off with all the players bar duff, who actually had one of his better recent performances, and probably would have got more props for his return to form if the result hadn't been so abysmal. morrison never had that much to begin with, but whatever he did have, he's lost. robbie keane useless again, if we had anyone half way decent to replace him i'd drop him on wednesday to give hime a kick up the ass. very much looking forward to getting k.doyle back in the side, maybe andy reid too, but i'm sure these guys will lose their spark once they have a couple more years in this team. stephen ireland and kilbane was the most utterly feeble shield for the defence i've seen (though that's not to let the defence off the hook), no sense of position, no composure on the ball, basically invisible for long stretches of the game. finnan, dunne - very accomplished premiership players, looking out of their depth against cyprus? the extent to which shay has been carrying us for the last few years has never been more evident.

well done, scotland. qualification ahead of italy (or france) now a very real possibility.

england rubbish, and mclaren's uselessness will now come to the fore, as the 'new management buzz' dies down. i think england will win on wednesday though - i feel that gerrard's absence will do good things for the shape of the team, and perhaps he should be dropped when lennon returns? with downing so rubbish, joe cole will surely get his place back, but that would mean england will need a proper winger on the other side, which gerrard is not. so lennon (or even swp, if he regains his spark) on the right, which would leave a straight fight between gerrard and lampard for the attacking midfielder slot - i always tended to side with gerrard on this one, but maybe they need someone a little more disciplined? gerrard's england performances have been consistently rubbish, too.

Hmmm. Chickens not yet hatched, so no counting please. I was trying so hard yesterday not to get all excited, telling myself all we'd done was thump the group whipping boys (no biggie), squeeze a result in Lithuania and fluke it against the big boys at home who will surely cuff us in return when we get over there.

This lasted for about three seconds, then it was all "OK, we're totally going to Austria/Switzerland for our summer hols in 2008, right?" However, I'm still not confident we're going to qualify - we still have to play Italy twice for a start, and let's not kid ourselves that that's going to be like yesterday. France had the ball in the back of the net a couple of times and the post saved us from going behind too. If Henry had scored in the first ten minutes, as he so very nearly did, it could have been all so different. The longer it went on, the more confident Scotland became and the more frustrated the French became. We can't be doing our ranking any harm though - that was my initial fear, that Group of Death (TM) would deal out many spankings and subsequently plummet us somewhere in the region of teh Faroes as a result.

i can feel it. i spent that whole qualifying campaign telling myself not to get too excited, when we finished second behind portugal (ahead of holland) i was certain we were going to lose the play off (against iran) because we'd been so tremendous throughout the group, and yet we didn't have confirmed qualification, i just felt that it was not to be. it was, though.

here's hoping it's not you ireland 2000/wales 2004 campaign, where you play very very well against technically superior opposition throughout, but choke at the crucial stage.

Rooney needs to be told he's not a fixture, as I think that'll motivate him more.

Just like Scotland managed yesterday against France [/gloat]

I don't think Rooney's motivation is the problem, its his confidence and decision-making that's taken a hammering.

carrick is utterly infuriating, the dullest fannydangl0r ever. does anyone really think scott parker wouldnt do a better job? stewart downing is an insult to gareth barry, and in turn not having barry at least in the squad is an insult to english football. harrumph!! no but seriously, downing may well be in theory a more penetrative player but he is so bleeding obvious in his intentions that it is but child's play to defend against him. then again perhaps all wingers are obvious; in which case downing must surely be a crap winger.

(tbf ashley cole is even more obvious - when he starts off on a run doesnt he just scream "HERE WE GO GUYZ, BUILDING FROM TEH BACK 101!!"?)

Um... That whole "finishing third in the World Cup at the first attempt" thing wasn't very exciting then?

what's the verdict on kranjcar?

At least the scottish goalkeeper jokes will have to stop for a while.

*roffle*

steve mcclaren is being mocked as a beetroot face.

turnip taylor, swede sven, beetroot faced mcclaren is embarrassed

http://www.godchecker.com/offerings/beetroot/beetroot_valentine.jpg

And as I type that Kenny Miller misses an open goal. ARGH.
x-post

England could finish third in this group!

PLANK McCLAREN! WRONG-SYSTEMS BASED THINKING EMPLOYED, MORE HOLISTIC NEXT TIME. McCLA-WRONG MORE LIKE.

STOP PRESS. More4 just ran a trailer for a repeat of Death of a President - "What would happen if George W Bush fell victim to an assassin's bullet?" Ava said "Yay!"

(Sorry, baby talk over).

potential answers to England's problems:

please arrange these potential solutions in order from 1-10, 1 for most important

Pick players in form and from less fashionable clubs

drop under performing big time charlies

Enrol Steve McClaren on an OU course on systems thinking: http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?C01T205

visit Fratton Park to check the performance of Glen Johnson, Sol Campbell, Matt Taylor, Gary O'Neil and Sean Davis

Unleash the wonderkid, Theo Walcott

the return of David Beckham

mcclaren: jack it in, admit your not up to it and resign ala Keegan

go back to 442

bring back b internationals to put pressure on big time charlies

ask peter taylor for advice on promoting talent from a winnning england u21 squad

see how the master does it

you know even systems thinking

wont be enough

porkypie resign now

"please arrange these potential solutions in order from 1-10, 1 for most important"

just majestic, imperious even. i don't think there's many that can touch him on this kind of form

OK!

1. Enrol Steve McClaren on an OU course on systems thinking: http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?C01T205

2. go back to 442

3. drop under performing big time charlies

4. Pick players in form and from less fashionable clubs

5. the return of David Beckham

6. mcclaren: jack it in, admit your not up to it and resign ala Keegan

7. Unleash the wonderkid, Theo Walcott

8. bring back b internationals to put pressure on big time charlies

9. ask peter taylor for advice on promoting talent from a winnning england u21 squad

10. play rousing darkwave in dressing room beforehand to inspire passion in our boys

11. put pressure on brian barwick to stand up against closure of DJ magazine. perhaps bring in harry redknapp as editor, and jim smith as chief sub.

12. uncover secret of rosetta stone

13. visit Fratton Park to check the performance of Glen Johnson, Sol Campbell, Matt Taylor, Gary O'Neil and Sean Davis

a thrilling 1-1 draw against the Dutch (as if to commemorate events of this time in '93 somehow) to look fwd to next month

Slaven Bilic:DJ Martian::Alexis Petridish:Marcello Carlin

gary neville must be pleased to finally get his name onto an england scoresheet so quickly after his miss against macedonia, however...

Funniest England goal conceded eveh? or is that still the San Marino one. I think the Borat hoardings were the clincher here.

"wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker"

(rejected by Mirror, but quite good)

1) in this game and never before. THAT's what friendlies are for.

2) Gary Neville at right wing-back and not at right centre-back. Presumably that was the original plan, with Gerard at wing-back, but when he was injured, why not play SWP there? He used to do it for City. At least that way one of the centre backs would be comfortable if pulled out wide, which none of them were. Or Glen Johnson, why not? (If he's really playing that well for the skates).

3) Ashley Cole? Bridge was playing really well until he was unceremoniously dumped for the big-name signing. Plus he's a much better crosser of the ball anyway.

4) Carrick was rubbish in the Macedonia game. I thought Parker was going to replace him, no play alongsided him.

5) ...

And Parker + Carrick could, theoretically, = Gattuso + Pirlo, but it didn't.

I have not seen any of this game, but refer you to my pre-World Cup Indian restaurant analysis of the England set-up.

Oh, I see it has already been rehashed thus:

"wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker wanker"

little bit of politics

This is exactly what I was thinking, although it'd probably make more sense with Carrick and Hargreaves. I suspect that's what Alex Ferguson's had on his mind as well over the last few months.

Is the precise moment of England's shark-jumping actually when Frank Lampard replaced Paul Scholes in the midfield? Scholes barely scored for England in the final couple of years but he usually played well. Where's that player with the incisive final pass these days?

So he was obviously on holiday when they did and he turned it down, then.

As Wales causing plenty of problems in attack, Wales looked secure at the back against a side full of confidence after putting five past the Republic of Ireland on Saturday.

Even better, his head pops up at the exact moment Robinson misses the ball, Eriksson would probably have used that as an excuse.

Second highlight of the night, turning on Radio 5 to hear Northern Ireland fans singing to the Latvian team, "Are you England in disguise?" Genius!

They're gonna win! All of 'em!

PompeyBoy - 11 Nov 2004 14:47

One of the Ukrainian subs last night (sadly unused - I could have done with a cheap laugh) was called Gay.

But for the fact that Scotland were losing simultaneously, it would've been nice to see the Neville/Robinson incident in a Glasgow pub, as I did Beckham's ballooned pen vs Turkey in 2003. Roffles. Rabffles.

For the benefit of Mike, one of the biggest cheers of the night in the pub I was in was when I was up at the bar and got a text of my brother, allowing me to announce loudly that England were losing 2-0. And that was *without* seeing the goals. Hilarity, splitting of sides, wetting of pants, etc, would surely have ensued.

has Aragones been sacked yet?

...........by Max Clifford

i had a dream that we were playing estonia and we were 2-1 up and the england team was comprised of me and a few mates of mine, and then in the last minute estonia had a corner and my best friend nodded the cross into his own net and smiled at how he had sealed mcclaren's fate

is this an omen?

should this have been posted to ask dr freud?

ANYWAY, yr thoughts on England's forthcoming international one-two, please. David Beckham to return like the prodigal master? Paul Robinson to produce a commanding performance at long last? Phil Neville to score his first England goal? Let the considered debate begin...

Most importantly, will Jermaine Jenas actually DO anything during his inevitable 24 minutes against Brazil this evening?

LOL @ Beckham playing for England again

England-Brazil to be even duller than the FA Cup final. But a scintillating 1-0 win in Estonia (nod-in by Owen after 5 mins) will restore PURRIIIIDE.

It won't be duller than the FA Cup Final, but it might just edge out the Championship play-off final for tedium.

I am glad Beckham is back in contention.

I awoke in the night with a fever and the sky was the darkest blue and a still voice was calling to me "your country is needing you" Aye just like that, and away in the distance I can just make out this ball, coming in from the left,and I'm starting to run,to run like hell and the voices are getting louder and louder and louder, crying, "Hey big yin, gaun yersel'"

Now the next thing I know, someones gaun and tripped me and I've fallen just inside the box. Now ref he loks to his linesman and he's pointing right at the spot! Now John Robertson, who normally takes them, is handing the ball to me and then i hear ma old lady screamin' blue murder, shes saying, "thats no the ball yer kickin' ya eejit, its me!"

And then we went out on goal difference again.

Greatest football record ever! Fuck a Three Lions, seriously.

greatest football record ever is sunderland are back in the first division

David Beckham AND Michael Owen playing for England again. It's like France 98 again except rubbish!

Alan Smith and Owen upfront, could be, erm, interesting (ie broken within six minutes).

It's like France 98 again except rubbish!

what do you mean 'except' (getting in there before Tom D)

Well, that was underwhelming, wasn't it?

I dunno, the equaliser was pretty funny. I liked the look of joy on the female steward's face as Diego came barrelling towards her.

I thought England were pretty good for the third quarter, until we brought Downing and Dyer on. We may have then scored (thanks entirely to Carragher, Beckham and Terry), but it all went a bit flat after that, Downing's 35-yard piledriver excepted. Mind you, he did nothing else all game. Nothing. And, as predicted, Jenas was anonymous.

Nice to see my Robinson call was rewarded with a very good performance, though.

above all, lol @ me saying "OH NOES GUYS ANYONE BUT HIM HE IS AWFUL HE DOES NOTHING" in reference to Stewart Downing, nearly having to run from the bar in shame 15 seconds later, and then being completely vindicated for the next 30 minutes.

This is a nightmare. If we can't even beat Brazil, what chance do we stand against Estonia?!

I'm actually being about 85% serious, this looked like a Brazil side that:

a) weren't in the slightest bit arsed
b) at times played like they actually wanted England to beat them, in the same time you let your friends beat you at pool on their birthday

I never deliberately lose at pool, but point taken, Brazil were definitely not on their full game. Estonia will be awful, though, I can't see them holding England close.

Estonia have an extremely stingy defence though (obv, they are not too hot on the goalscoring front, but y'know...)

new england formation suggestion

                       Terry         Owen
                                                        Beckham
player1 player2 player3 player4 player5 player6 player7
                            goalie1

Reading the BBC site one would think this is a tough game. I appreciate it's a "must win" but we're talking about opposition who NEVER score and ship 2 goals a game and have lost every single qualifier.

keira dwyer at right back I THINK NOT MONSIEUR MURKLARREN

The BBC sport news was like thread connections yesterday with

Barton poised to join Newcastle
Viduka set for Newcastle transfer
Rozehnal eager to join Newcastle
Dyer may play in defence

not sure about dyer full stop, BUT, a) didnt he make his debut at right back - ok i dont remember this really but there was an article in yesterdays daily mail about it, b) are estonia going to attack at all anyhow?

where are the right backs in this team? phil neville?? i'd be tempted to play 3-5-2 again at this rate.

I speak out of principle, Gareth. I know that against Estonia we could probably field 9 attacking midfielders and Robinson would have barely anything to do, but for me the best side should take the field in every competitive game. To suggest Dyer at right back might be an experiment worth persevering with would suggest disingenuousness to me.

Phil Neville is a good Premiership-standard right-back, and would do a very good job. He's certainly performed for Everton both in defence and midfield over the past two seasons.

I wanna know where Luke Young is...

the championship?

I thought he was West Ham*/Villa/someone else in claret & blue bound?

* was for "and possibly therefore still championship bound subject to legal etc"

et tu, youngy

Pearce got the U21s to actually play a penalty shootout after the 5-0 win over Slovakia last night. useful for the crowd atmospheric conditions apparently. not sure what Slovakia made of this.

Yes I'm sure the conditions involved in a penalty shootout when you have just beaten someone 5-0 will prepare them perfectly for the psychological conditions of sudden death when they end up drawing 1-1 in a World Cup quarter final. I think Pearce is just scarred.

well they have to do something, so i approve in spite of the absurdity.

Yeah, what they neglect to add was that it was at 3am, and Pearce had a gun and was crying

In a Pizza Hut carpark

Um, you were rubbish. Also boring.

(note: early kick-off of Scotland game + amount of alcohol consumed + being Scottishness = bearing on my opinion)

I'm not *quite* sure how a 3-0 canter can actually be less entertaining than a laboured 1-0 win that allows us to continue national handwringing for a while longer, but it's happened.

Although yum yum Beckham cross for Crouch goal. That was amazing. Nice to see Becks hasn't given up his whole 'fake limp every time I get substituted' thing.

Uh does it really need to be pointed out anymore when England game is boring? I'm just glad it's bumped up the goal difference - I expected only the one goal.

didn't watch the game cos expected another poor no-win for england. don't really mind that they lost so much based on the hope that this might actually fire them up more to deliver against Israel tho that has ugly 1-0 all over it even then. really not good enough tho.

Great performance against comically inept Israel side yesterday. See what everyone's been saying about BALANCE in the team, McClaren? Can't be alone in being surprised at how well Gareth Barry played in midfield, but how come Michael Carrick wasn't even on the bench? Injury I presume?

Also Micah Richards is very good indeed, isn't he? Ditto Owen's goal.

I'm upset every time England win now cos it delays McClaren's departure. We still have zero chance of winning anything under him, so the sooner he's gone, the better.

/\ perverse

missed the game which i'm going to keep doing i think. thought israel would be better/harder to break down. great goal by owen. russia will be much tougher but if england win again on wednesday i think they'll definitely qualify.

england playing well without beckham, lampard and rooney huh

I'm upset every time England win now cos it delays McClaren's departure. We still have zero chance of winning anything under him, so the sooner he's gone, the better.

I'd rather England qualified. Even in the dark days, I'd have rather kept Taylor and made it to USA 94, than have a World Cup without England in it. Having said that, I enjoyed the last World Cup much more when England weren't playing (as England were so unbelievably dull), so maybe it wouldn't be the end of the world if we don't make it to Euro 08.

I really enjoyed 94. That said, from what I can recall of last night, they played much nicer football than of late. I'm just generally caring less and less about England, I think. It annoys me when the real football isn't on cos of stupid internationals.

I enjoyed 94 as well despite the lack of England but maybe that's because it was a World Cup. I'm not sure a European Championship without England would grab me in the same way.

There were moments during the coverage when they were talking about Israel being vulnerable to high balls that I thought we were headed for a "they don't take any prisoners, the Germans" moment, but mercifully it wasn't ITV and pundits and commentators alike restrained themselves.

Ashley Cole's crossing isn't very good. He looks a bit off-the-boil.

He wasn't good at all. He was very much in a minority among the England players though. Israel actually really fucked me off with their style of play. I know they're not great but neither are they Lichtenstein, at least try and give the impression there's some aspect of playing football that gives you pleasure aside from obstructing opposing players

Ziv might be my new hate-figure. Dirty AND a flagrant diver. He has such twattish hair, too! Truly a cunt of the most profound order.

Brilliant last-ditch interception in the second half though.

No, Owen hit it straight at him, when either a check-back or a dink would have done the trick.

Also, David Bentley - first England player ever to have been booed by his own fans? I'm struggling to think of another one, it didn't even happen to Lee Bowyer.

Did Beckham get a bit of a booing at France 98?

i guess Matt means booed just for playing the ball as opposed to being sent off or as part of a losing team (or drawing team ala England's first half in Andorra).

was Heskey booed around 4 years ago or did everyone just tut?

Wasn't John Barnes booed by racists?

Surely David James or Andy Cole have vied for this honour. I booed Ray Wilkins on the telly. Robson too.

Don't remember it happening to James or Cole. There wasn't time for Beckham to get booed, I think everyone was just shellshocked and then he was off. Don't think it happened to Heskey either, even when he gave away that Zidane free kick.

Barnes got worse undeniably but racists don't really boo black players as such, do they?

Also, David Bentley - first England player ever to have been booed by his own fans? I'm struggling to think of another one, it didn't even happen to Lee Bowyer.

-- Matt DC, Sunday, 9 September 2007 15:44 (Sunday, 9 September 2007 15:44) Bookmark Link

Wasn't Frank Lampard booed in the last game?

Beckham didn't get booed at France 98. There was incredulity when he got sent off for next to nothing, and then in the aftermath of the defeat he got scapegoated and got abuse all over the country the following season. He took some nasty shit from some England supporters after that - he got into trouble for flicking the Vs at some charming England fans who said "I hope your kid gets cancer" - but I can't remember what tournament that was. Probably Euro 2000, because after the goal against Greece in 2001 he was everybody's best mate again.

Bentley's certainly not the first England player to be booed. Various individuals have been singled out before. Phil Neville, I think, was the boo boys favourite for a while? And at the match against Andorra the entire England team was booed for about an hour. But I think Bentley might well be the first England player to be booed *while making his way onto the pitch on his debut*. Which was harsh.

Yeah, Lampard was booed, justifiably. They bang on about how it's not on to boo a player playing for their country but isn't it FAR worse on some kind of moral level if he lets down his country through lack of effort rather than his paid employer?

(that reads a bit Daily Mail, hmm)

hargreaves and crouch were booed recently enough, weren't they?

England fans are charmers, ain't they?

samassi abou only thought he was getting booed

they all look alike to you! (xp)

hansmoleman.jpg

I'm upset every time England win now cos it delays McClaren's departure.

SO TRUE.

an england win became inevitable as soon as lampard's absence was announced.

USA 94 had Ireland beating Italy, England weren't necessary

I'm upset every time England win now cos it delays McClaren's departure

Yes, it's like in the Thatcherite 80s when I used to hope the economy, unemployment figures etc were terrible in the hope that that might hasten her departure.

I'm upset every time England win now cos it delays McClaren's departure

extraordinary - you are more concerned about who the manager is than how the team is doing?

USA 94 had IrelandItaly beating ItalyNorway, England weren't necessary

Fixed.

I don't imagine he'll be upset if England win the Euro 2008 final Mark! Think long term, dude.

Looking at how countries are playing right now I think nobody will win Euro 2008

maybe Poland

Aren't they rubbish? Good goalkeeper.

scotland will win!

I have good reason to support Poland if England don't qualify.

Poland are top of their group btw

FIFA require that every side that England plays has a "great keeper"

Maybe, but they've qualified for lots of tournaments and been shit once they got there (xpost)

scotland will win!

They won't even qualify! (xpost)

Scotland would definitely have qualified had they been in Norway's group in place of Norway. I think France will narrowly beat Scotland - can see Italy beating them too which is annoying thinking back to how close Scotland came to beating Italy a couple of years back. But Ukraine look shite now so 3rd place should be theirs at least.

Can't see England getting 6 points from Russia - would take 4 now definitely...maybe even 2!

RIONALDO!

"That defender got merked"

that keeper has played his last game for russia

James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden James McFadden

Further to my previous comment I think I just don't care about England any more.

they've won me back! for now...

amazing result for Scotland too - v chuffed for 'em

Did I hear things correctly or have England really won their past four qualifiers 3-0?

TBH I would probably put a fully-fit Wayne Rooney back in the team however well Emile Heskey played in both games, but I really want to see the Barry - Gerrard partnership given a few more games, really impressed with Barry. Ditto Ricards-SWP. Is Beckham prepared to fly half way across the world to sit on the bench, I wonder?

Also Michael Owen is a lethal marksman again! How long til he breaks his leg then?

Plus I knew Ian Wright wouldn't be able to resist making a 'Jerkoff' joke.

Just think what he'd have done with Celtic's unlamented Brazillian Raphael Scheidt.

Weir, Tebily, Scheidt, the greatest defence that never was.

That was a pretty good night.

My shoulder feels kind of overexposed without the Barry For England chip on it any more. Maybe Fat Frank will be scandalously restored to central midfield and I can angry up mar blood again.

Scotland!

McLaren must be hoping for some injuries now to help his team selection again. If he brings back Lampard and Beckham and they play shit he gets mega abuse again.
Wonder if he is brave enough.

Scotland!!

I shouted louder over the Scotland goal than anything non-Barry related in the England match. I generally keep up a constant patter of verbose pro-Barry mantras throughout my entire waking life anyway though.

Barry, to further something I said on the other thread, was beyond deity for the first 25 minutes.

I've never rated him previously, but well done McLeish for getting the tactics right - and describing McFadden (accurately) as "gallus" in his post-match interview. Even better to beat France, a team of overrated fanny-dancers if ever there were: Malouda, Ribery, Trezeguet (the man who makes Pippo Inzaghi look like a footballer).

Ribery is not a fanny-dancer :(

Ineffective with a ten-mile high capital "I"

But looks good running around, I'll grant you that

First time "looks good" has ever been used wrt Ribery, surely?

Ireland were pretty poor, the thing is I actually think we have a good team now, just a crap manager. How Stephen Hunt didn't start is beyond me, he single handedly lifted the entire team when he came on.

The only enjoyment of the Irish match last night was watching Eamon Dunphy tear into Steve Staunton afterwards. "He doesn't LOOK...like a manager. He doesn't THINK....like a manager, he doesn't TALK....like a manager. He's like a guy you'd have in the Phoenix Park!"

Then when the other pundits tried to be more moderate in that "Ah Eamon come on" way he said to the anchor "Bill, were you born in that seat? Were you? YOU WEREN'T. You worked your way up to the job".

Then somebody said in a half assed way "but Eamon lots of football players become managers with no experience" and he just replied "Would you let him drive the train to Cork? WOULD YOU? WOULD YOU LET HIM DRIVE THE TRAIN TO CORK TOMORROW MORNING?"

He really is great when you actually agree with him, nobody was spared, not the FAI, not Staunton.

And all 3 panelists reckon he should be sacked now, not at the end of the campaign. I definitely agree. Czech Republic are so poor too, with a good manager we had a great chance of second place in this group.

Ronan, when you next get a moment can you please give us an Eamon Dunphy tribute thread? YouTube links essential.

Scotland are the New Republic

Then when the other pundits tried to be more moderate in that "Ah Eamon come on" way he said to the anchor "Bill, were you born in that seat? Were you? YOU WEREN'T. You worked your way up to the job".

Then somebody said in a half assed way "but Eamon lots of football players become managers with no experience" and he just replied "Would you let him drive the train to Cork? WOULD YOU? WOULD YOU LET HIM DRIVE THE TRAIN TO CORK TOMORROW MORNING?"

That's superb :)

I'll put it up when it's on youtube. He also went on a rant which culminated in "we are a country with the greatest gaelic footballers and hurlers in the world". erm...I can see a reason why that is!

I'm assuming you've all seen "the greatest Irish TV episode of all time" TM. I know Matt has, but I like to watch it once a month to restore my lack of faith in humanity. This one

Is that train journey (to Cork) a particularly difficult one?

Would you do it Steve? Would you?

wellll...OK!

RIP Kevin Keegan: killed for not supporting England

God I thought you were joking. RIP.

"The court was told he had drunk the equivalent of 28 pints and taken three ecstasy tablets and cannabis."

Bit excessive for a night in front of a telly, isn't it?

There was always some idiot that ruins it for the rest of us.

Snakes On A Plane!

why is this a thing now?

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/maconie460.jpg

Has this been posted elsewhere?

Steve McClaren speaks in broken English and a Dutch accent to make himself understood

"What you call it ... 'underdog'?"

The man is a legend.

best case scenario: he did that as a bet
worst case sceanrio: every other possible scenario