what to do when a girl you meet wants a platonic relationship and you want more?

This is classic.

http://www-rtsl.cs.uiuc.edu/members/jsun/friend-zone.jpg

You have no chance with this girl. She's being messed around by her boyfriend and is hoping that he will improve (which is unlikely) or that something better will come along (which is likely) and it doesn't include you.

When something better does comes along, you wont believe how quickly you can be dropped from 4 hours on the telephone a day to nada.

(not that I'm at all embittered by previous experience, you understand)

What kind of weird shit is this?
'I want to break up with you.'
'Hm, but I don't want to break up.'
'Oh ok then.'

I dunno, she sounds like someone who likes to have intense friendships, some of which include flirtation, but I wouldn't hold out hope of more. As for telling the truth about how you feel anyway, well it would force her to put her cards on the table if she DOES have any feelings for you, but it might also mess up your friendship. Although personally I find that friendships with someone you want more from are not worth the pain in the end anyway.

this is prob true. when we first spoke at length, she said her 'type' was basically someone who fit more or less exactly with what she thought of/associated with me. i dunno if she was saying this intentionally, or to tease me, or cos she wants some sort of surrogate boyfriend cos her current bf isnt there as much (i mean, what the fuck is she doing calling me every night instead of her bf? or does she call everyone more than her own bf?) but either way, its a bit confusing.

this is probably OTM. i did ask if she wanted to maybe meet up just for a drink or something, and she said shed like to, but she didnt seem too into the idea of it just being us, she wanted to bring in a mutual friend, and now she wants us to meet up all together, with other people next week. but yeah, if she did have some inkling of something romantic with me, she would have at least agreed to meeting up just the two of us, even if just as friends. i mean its not like we dont get along. she might as well be in anohter country really, cos i imagine this being the type of thing where its just a phone friendship, but we never actually see each other (or rarely, or not without other people there). she said something like she didnt like to meet up just one on one with people cos she gets nervous which sounds like bullshit really.

oh well.

what do you mean?

re: pouncing, we were both kinda drunk when we last met, and im sure she was quite into me from certain things she was saying and how she was acting. so i would get her drunk if i could meet up with her alone..

(Of course, this may all be BS in which case ignore me. There's plenty older, wiser heads giving better advice on this thread, anyway.)

xxxposts

Sunnysuccessor, I'd like to think this were true, but I just can't.

I am afraid to say, it's probably (c). Sorry.

How old is she?

SunnyS, I get the feeling that in saying those things the girl was merely toying with her own feelings on the matter, experimenting with TT's interest. There are other signs in what TT says that indicate that the girl had conquered this.

just make a move. rejection or no, you'll feel better.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner.

yes, it is. my friend megan and i are like this.

admittedly, she will probably just say that he wouldnt say anything as theres nothing for him to worry about, which will probably crush me in a minor but significant way, but hey...

The problem is, she'd say that even if it wasn't true. If you want to put her on the spot (and you should do) then you need to ask the question in a way she can't sidestep. Tell her you like her, and that you don't want to be just friends, then ask whether she wants that too. If she says no, there's your answer (and it won't necessarily spoil your friendship either, these things are actually quite easy to back down from, so don't let yourself use that excuse).

"(and it won't necessarily spoil your friendship either, these things are actually quite easy to back down from, so don't let yourself use that excuse)."

dunno about this though. how can you say 'well yeah actually uh i really like you' and then just back down from it and have everything go back to how it was?

Who?

I say tell her that you want her. The sort of person who's willing to subdue feelings time after time for fear of awkward scenes is the sort of person that people will always want as a friend. Less often as a lover.

I don't see the point in backing off and seeing what happens. You end up in the realm of game-playing - sideways glances and elaborately coded text messages. This is really a Yes/No sort of thing. And if it's not Yes now, then maybe it will be Yes somewhere down the line. But only if you make the choice clear.

It's not that hard. Just apologise, say you'd felt a bit confused and that you'd misread a couple of her signals, but that (assuming it's true) her frienship is more important to you than anything else, and that you don't feel weird about still being friends, so you hope she doesn't either.

(um, I actually did this once, having been in a pretty similar situation, and the person in question is still one of my best friends now (and it's true that I'd just got confused too, in fact we'd have made a TERRIBLE couple) so yeah, it's totally possible).

haha.....resoundingly correct, it may seem as tho people are being cynical here, but that's because you are trapped in the HOPE BUBBLE. I'm not saying shut off all possibilities of a great loving relationship in the near future, but you need to realise that fancying someone who has a bf, when she knows you fancy her and is happy for you to be a malleable best buddy, is a bad situation.

one thing is sure, when you cease to fancy her, for whatever reason, you will look back at being strung along as the friend who fancied her and laugh at yourself, the key here is to avoid the end of this involving you being ground down into little pieces, you can still "win" this situation, just make sure you get out slowly and by the stairs or elevator, rather than the window.

I am no dr love but your situation is very very similar to one I was in.

just you wait and see, the only time to judge if you want to be friends is when you DON'T fancy her! if you want to still be friends then, well go for it. get the fancying out of the way first, then see about friendship.....

im assuming getting the fancying out of the way involves telling her i fancy her and 'like her'. not sure how i could really make a comeback from that if it all goes tits up (do these things ever really get back to normal?), but hey, maybe the 'i was confuzzled' excuse CAN work. id probably just style it out by saying that actually i thought i did but now ive said it, i dont. (which may well be the case)

re: long phone convos, and her ringing me regularly, she says she does with all her friends so, errrrr

lol

does she have other male friends she hangs out with as much as you? or worse, does she only hang out with guys?

personally I'd avoid telling her you like her, but I am a coward like that! tho it would be a way of bringing things to a head.

the strategy you want to avoid, IMO, is "mmm let's ride this out and THEN make my move". NO.

A way of bringing things to a head - but, more importantly, a way to feel better about yourself. Avoiding the subject means that you're left with the idea that these feelings are your dirty secret. Inconvenient and shaming. And that shouldn't be the case! Putting your cards on the table means that you've done everything you can - and that the rest is up to her. Which is quite a pleasant sort of feeling.

It's a lot more horrible to get shot down in flames when you open the box and the cat is definitely dead.

But I suppose, at least you can move on then.

x-post

I disagree. It's a lot more damaging to live in vague fear of it all coming to a head and turning out badly than it is to put your cards on the table, find out what's what and move on from there. If she doesn't fancy you or if she's not willing to go to the next step what kind of happiness are you going to have with her anyway.

The thing to do is something to make you feel like you have some degree of control in this situation. Back way off, and if she asks why, say something to the effect that you've been really busy but that if she'd like to meet you at such-and-such a time/place for lunch/a movie/a drink, etc. If pressed, say that, while talking with her on the phone is well and good, it's too "virtual" for you, and you'd far rather hang out in person and go do cool stuff together. Make fun of her a little bit; if she gives you answers you don't like, gently tease her for being boring, instead of acting wounded or pissed-off or apologetic.

Shift the anxiety onto her, in other words -- make her imagine that you've got better things to do. Right now the power dynamic is totally skewed in her direction, which is bad for you and probably a turnoff for her. If she has cause to think she might lose the "intimacy" you guys have, then she'll show whether she'll make a move to come towards you, or not.

Right now, though, there's little chance for you to make a bold move (which is what I would suggest if the two of you could get alone together). And you don't need to confess your feelings, that'd be just more of same, I think. Chances are this won't work out, but you can learn it as an opportunity to change the dynamic of a situation, and fight your way out of a role that all too many nice, considerate, sympathetic men end up in.

not to my knowledge. she only hangs out with her tight knit circle of girly mates.

what the fuck does that mean??

I don't mean there's anything wrong with a girl only hanging out with guys.

:(

it might be easy fun for YOU.

(bob six it must have been the pent up ilx-frustration from the past few days!)

i think i might try out lurkers approach. im guessing this means less emailing during the day at work as well. and not taking her calls either (she seems to like calling me at work as well as at home, but i usually cut her short at work cos honestly, i do have work to do and cant talk for too long). after that, ill see how that goes and maybe then tell her i like her, lol. i suppose the challenge with lurkers approach is that if i dont take her cals or whatever, will she still even give a shit?! (at this point, im deluding myself into thinking that if that happens, thats cos i didnt tell her i liked her but anyway, thats for later confusion)

but the whole idea of this is (at least to give the impression) that you don't give a shit whether or not she gives a shit?

Is this four-hour phone call friend-relationship satisfying to you, entirely apart from the possibility of dating her? If you weren't interested in her at all, would you find this friendship worthwhile? For instance: if you didn't think she was attractive at all, would you be doing this?

I'm guessing the answer is no. And if that's true, then yeah: stop being at her beck and call. Don't make a big priority of talking to her or calling her back. Be too busy to talk for four hours. Don't make a fuss about whether you get to see her or not. Hang out with some other girl(s). Have better things to do. You do have better things to do -- go do some of them. Go on liking her, if you like her, but have better things to do.

That's not advice to "treat her like dirt" or be a dick. It's advice to be a person with a full life -- the kind of life you might like to include her, but isn't going to be made or broken by her involvement. Because if the "friends" part isn't satisfying to you in and of itself, then part of what she's getting from you right now is just your availability, something other people might not offer: if she wants to talk to someone for four hours, you apparently have four free hours to sit around doing it. (During those hours, who does most of the talking, and who does most of the listening?) The message this sends isn't actually an attractive one: it says "I'm a person with nothing better to do than be here for you," or, worse, "I'm so happy to even talk to a woman that I'll do anything to make it happen."

So unless this friend-relationship is really satisfying to you, then just cut down on it and do something that's truly worthwhile. Tell her you're busy. You have your own stuff to do. And she'll get the message that you have bigger, better priorities than an unsatisfying friendship. She'll get the message that those four hours you're spending on phone calls are valuable time, not just hers for the taking, and that if she wants them from you, she's going to have to step up and give something back. (And this sends a more attractive message -- that you're less of a friendly, available puppy and more of a guy with his own stuff going on, stuff you have to offer to her.)

And yes, do this casually, even if she acts hurt or confused about it. And don't be hurt or serious about it yourself. Just remember that you're not, like, a free meal -- it's perfectly normal for you to have better things to do with your time. Don't try and get her to respond to that; don't say it with significance; just be like, "sorry, I have to do something else."

look, you dont start saying things like 'are you a good lover' and 'my friend asked if i was interested in you' to guys you dont want pawing you. the general idea, if you want to stay platonic, is not to encourage sexual thoughts.

I do. I talk all manner of shit with my male friends, yap to them on the phone for hours/email them loads etc. This is because I like their company, I like talking to them. They know I'm in a relationship, that I'm not in the slightest bit interested in them sexually. Maybe, since you've never told her otherwise, she thinks your relationship is like that. She likes you, you're mates, you can talk for hours about anything and everything, she knows you know she's taken. She bitches about her current relationship because everybody in a relationship moans to their friends (OK, not everyone, but it's common).

If you want her to start treating you different, you have to tell her you want her to treat you different. Whether that's "please accept I have a crush on you and still be my friend, but ease off on the flirting until I get past this" or "please leave your boyfriend for me or I won't be your friend any more" or, you know, just stop hanging around with her so much (a simple "oh, is that the time, I'd love to chat but said I'd go and meet X to do Y?" five minutes into a conversation, ridding yourself of the compulsion to email her right back, etc, is all it takes).

xpost - nabisco probably OTM even though I haven't read his post yet. He usually is.

And thus does the game perpetuate itself.. This is why you musn't lose sight of the objective. The game is not a way of finding out whether she wants you - it's a way of making her want you. If she doesn't give a shit, what will you do about it? How will you change that? Without tactics, the game plays YOU!

Which is why I'm beginning to wonder whether Kate's suggestion of sending her a dead cat in a box might be the way forward.

(Even though you ran a million miles away to make toast when I tried to explain TSM to you.)

um, probably half and half really, if im honest. maybe more talking on her side though, yeah (argh).

re: someone who doesnt need her, she has said her current BF is a bit vague, and keeps her guessing and is quite a on a whim sort of guy. and yeah, the past weekend, i wasnt all that busy, which prob doesnt look too great does it?!

i do often say 'er i have to go now, i cant keep talking' and she is aware of this but she still calls me. maybe ill have to start makign sure im not just getting off the phone for the sake of it, but cos i have other things to do (which i do, but i best make it clear )

kate, but when nick runs a million miles when you try and TSM, what do you do about it?

i think this might be more true for americans than for britishes?

*some* of my male friends, I should say, before no-one ever goes to the pub with me ever again.

1. Do you want to be the sort of person who steals other people's girlfriends? Because that's what you'll be if you're successful.

2. Do you want to be the sort of person who wastes six months of your life wandering after someone, another few months moping around when you realise you've left it too long and she's lost interest/you've realised she's not interested/she dumps her boyfriend and finds something else. Because looking back and realising you've done that is not great, especially if you find yourself turning down/overlooking other girls because of it.

Assuming the answer to 1 is yes and the answer to 2 is no, you might as well cut to the chase as quickly as possible. Because trying to do the whole Tim and Dawn thing is not all it's cracked up to be. Find a quiet moment and make your move.

Whatever you do, don't a) spend ages trying to portray yourself in a more caring and sensitive light than her boyfriend, or try and make him look worse. At best, it's playing dirty, at worst you'll turn yourself into Gay Best Friend and all you'll get is an "I love you, not like that" sort of answer. If you make a move earlier, and she turns you down, don't do the lovesick puppy thing. That never works.

It's suddenly occurred to me how mindbuggeringly cynical I've become about these situations.

(Many xposts - bear in mind I've only skimread here)

xpost means I get to correct amusing typo there.

I'm meeting up with a young lady this weekend and I'm damned if I don't make a move on her. Watch this space.

wow, haven't heard that term in years!

Disregard. Classic. Be sure to use the version with the extended intro.

i think this might be more true for americans than for britishes?

what about for australians living in america, like sunny?

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........

If you do this, could you please film it and post it on ILX?

Alternately sing a Bright Eyes song. If it doesn't work - which it probably won't unless this is Wynona Ryder we're talking about - you can always talk about it on ILM.

Luckily I didn't do anything really.

hmm, doesnt bode well.

i think im just gonna do the backing off thing, see how that goes, and then maybe just get it out my system. im sure it will all end horribly, but at least i will have it sorted.

if she's rubbing her boobies against your body, rest assured, she wants your SEX.

about 2 weeks

i guess we should ask, what do you want from her?

OTMFM

the 4hr thing isnt every day, only happened twice.

when you say geting out ahead, do you mean just forgetting it all, or doing the confession thing, and then getting the fuck out?

could be worse though, i know guys that have gotten played for longer than two weeks. and i have no plans to be taken for a chump.

One rarely does.

i don't know? ask mel gibson?

RESOUNDING YES FROM ALL.

when you say geting out ahead, do you mean just forgetting it all, or doing the confession thing, and then getting the fuck out?

Well first off, for god's sake, don't think in terms of a "confession." You didn't eat a baby, or anything -- you just like a girl. There are loads of girls in the world, and you're capable of liking any number of them. No matter how important it is to you, it's not some vexed life-or-death thing, and you're better off acting accordingly.

I mean, maybe this isn't how you feel, and maybe it's more sly than you feel like being, but seriously: you will probably get the best results from this by saying "yeah, I like you, but whatever, I've got other shit to do." You liked a girl who wasn't available: no big deal. Your life is big enough to encompass plenty of that. You'll spend time on her when you feel like it, but apart from that, you have better things to do -- things that'll satisfy you and make you happy and make it so you have a full, interesting life that's inviting to the next girl who comes along.

Alternately, if that feels too sly and cool-guy for you, then yes, you can go in a more honest self-helpy feelings-sharing direction: tell her you have feelings for her and that, while you'd like to be friends, a talk-every-night confidant relationship is just going to bug you. And then still do the same play-it-cool thing: your life's bigger than this.

Which isn't a cool-guy act, because it's true. A few months from now, when you meet a girl who actually might date you, which would you rather say: (a) "I've spent the past few months hanging out with genuine friends, working on and learning about things that excite me, and living the kind of rich, well-rounded life you might enjoy being a part of," or (b) "I've spent the past few months wrapped up in a sad telephone non-relationship with some other girl, growing increasingly bitter, sad, desperate, and emotionally vulnerable -- wanna go out sometime?"

I don't think desperado means what you meant it to here.

At which point she'll realize you're not an available sad-sack and have better things to do than mess with her -- which may even possibly make her totally want you.

(It's like if you had a puppy, and you weren't that interested in it, and you took it for granted and ignored it, and then one day you came home and the puppy wasn't there, and when you turned on the TV there was a story on Entertainment Tonight about how Penelope Cruz had a new puppy, and there's your puppy all snuggled up with Penelope Cruz, and then you called the puppy to say hi and it was all like "hey, yeah, whatever, so like what exactly do you want? cause I'm busy nuzzling with Penelope Cruz," and then you thought of your puppy nuzzling with you, back in the good old days, and wanted it back more than ever.)

So I'm more just recommending that he make a decisive show of being the latter, not the former!

Been there, done that. A nice general dating tip: If it's really difficult, it's almost certainly not going to happen.

or maybe she's interested in guys that don't need her as much as you do (maybe you're the one who would 'treat her badly')? and if she is with a guy who treats her badly, maybe that's more why she wants attention rather than why she isn't really interested. maybe when she finds a guy who treats her well, the need for outside attention will no longer be there.

So I think tigertiger is having something of an archetypical experience here, one that he needs to escape lest he become another embittered "nice" guy (since right now he seems like a genuinely nice guy, to me anyway).

Thus: dude, I'd back off, and if she asks why, tell her you're too busy for the phone. Don't confess anything; if you want to, engineer a one-on-one situation in which kissing can happen. You won't seduce her with earnest words; you might with a kiss. But you have to stop caring about her, basically -- have to stop hoping, have to be indifferent to the outcome -- to have any real chance of winning her romantic affections in this situation.

(But of course, if you do, then the joy of it will be meaningless to you, because you don't have any hope invested in her, so the dream will be an empty one...isn't this stuff great?)

My guess is that she CAN'T like tigertiger, because he's a nice guy. She probably thinks that she should like a guy like tigertiger, but it just doesn't do it for her.

I don't know this person, and I'm making a hell of a lot of assumptions here, but tigertiger's description sounds so familiar.

ive got to scroll up and re-read the 'nabisco sly way' to tell her, but i think i will have to give that a miss for a litttle while.

what i actually came here to post today was that, actually, after missing her calls yesterday, im thinking that maybe, just maybe, she didnt actually do any intentional leading on, and maybe its just me feelings for her looks/personality wise that have made me think that cos i like her. maybe im just a sad sap after all.

alternately, while i prob should have been wary when giving sex tips (which are of course for her and her BF), my own female friends didnt really ask the second time that i met them whether i gave my past GFs orgasms or not, and whether i liked getting them off and things like that. dont know about anyone else, but i usually like those questions to be asked the third time i meet someone (*cymbal crash*).

It does sound like she might be a bit simple though.

im not sure i want to know what it does sound like now! im sticking to the backing off plan though. (cheers for your advice upthread btw - seemed very sound)

none of her business!

You know that I needed you
You know that you meant the world to me
You know I had to have you
Now I'm gonna find somebody new

I'm looking for a new love baby
A new love, Yeah yeah yeah
I'm looking for a new love baby
A new love. Yeah yeah yeah

http://www.rockofages.uk.com/stock/1777.jpg

i dont know why i even agreed to go out with her friend, she didnt look that great in the pic, although pics can often not be as good as the person in real life. shes also asked me who i liked of the girls that were there when we met last week (quite possibly the last time we will ever see each other) for someones do and said that she cold find out if they liked me etc from someone else (which sounded a bit high school to me but hey).

she admitted she is highly confused and indecisive (not exactly rare in women, that trait) and despite her and her BF having fuck all to talk about, apparently they are quite 'passionate' so she couldnt decide if that was good enough - im sure she said she doesnt have regular orgasms with him though but she probably likes that.

she always acts sad when i say i cant talk for long and when i have to get off the phone, but i suspect this is just regular practice for women and their surrogate gay confidante boyfriends. i did actually consider telling her i feel like a SGCBF when we last talked, but i didnt want to make myself seem like the woe-is-me-victim person.

but no, this is pointless isnt it? i agree that if she wants this to be more, she would make her feelings known in some way. so time to give up the fantasy i think...

I didn't read a word of this thread, but I feel confident in my advice.

she said she doesnt have regular orgasms with him though but she probably likes that

she always acts sad when i say i cant talk for long and when i have to get off the phone, but i suspect this is just regular practice for women

It's too late. She's broken you. You now hate women.

(In other words, stop extrapolating from this one girl to all of womankind, you tit. Otherwise you're lost).

what??

im sure she said she doesnt have regular orgasms with him though but she probably likes that.

WHAT?!?

im gonna do what JD said.

I've run into quite a few of these lately, god help the poor bastard who gets hung up on one.

that she does

"will flirt with anyone attractive who's nearby when drunk"

possibly, she did tell one guy at our table he was cute but later told me that he lost all appeal when she found out how boring he was

"since she's just going to flake out on you eventually"

its possible. ive been taking only one call of hers a day now, and keeping the calls nice, but short (and not picking up for the others). we'll see if she still bothers later. but no, i dont think she is going to think 'oh why isnt he picking up, i miss him and now realise hes the best guy in the world since hes been avoiding me' and leave the current bf.

however, she is meeting me tomorrow with a friend of hers she is trying to set me up with. which is going to be a bit weird. not sure how im going to play this one at all.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/pix/pot_smoke041024.jpg

http://common.weblogsinc.com/common/images/3060000000056656.JPG?0.0623780040151064

How many others? What is she, some kind of obsessive stalker? Who calls anyone multiple times every day, I dont do that with my closest of close friends, my mom, anyone.

Hahaha oh crap. Old habit from when I had that canucky fiance. I subconciously echo the spellings that I'm reading. I really should stop it.

this could have been the same in my case if i ever saw her to GIVE her those puppy dog eyes. its not like i even gave her the audio equivalent over the phone in any case, i never called her anyway. 9 times out of 10 she was calling me.

its good to put this in the past tense.

xpost - its already forgotten.

"If this is anything like a few women I've run into lately, she probably wants lots of attention from any nice male who will give it, has a monster phone bill each month, will flirt with anyone attractive who's nearby when drunk, and thinks it's "edgy" to be very sexual in conversation. If she's in her late 20s and hasn't cleared this phase yet, it means she's still bouncing from douchebag boyfriend to douchebag boyfriend. She's not going to go for anything meaningful if she has a conscience since she's just going to flake out on you eventually.
I've run into quite a few of these lately, god help the poor bastard who gets hung up on one."

im starting to get quite annoyed just talking to her (the 'silence' didnt last too long) so am trying to avoid it, but whats more frustrating is that i still fucking 'like' her in the back of my (poor bastard) head and i really fucking hate that. i think im just gonna tell her, then it can be over with. then i can at least stop posting to this thread, lol. still, its not like im waiting around for her, i went out fri night and got two numbers, so at least im not putting things on hold (i would really loathe myself if that was the case) but i still have those horrible fucking feelings for her.