Taxes!

That said, would the assmonkeys I freelanced for PLEASE get their W2s in my mailbox now? Y'know, so I don't have to push the deadline envelope?

W2s? How interesting, I usually get 1099-MISC.

Taxes suck, but I like to think that my check is earmarked for non-killing government stuff like NASA telescopes or NEA grants or the OSHA for Kids web site.

I'm told that the loan for the house I'm buying is structured in such a way that I can deduct the entirety of my mortgage payments. Something smells very Fat Tony about it, but if true I'm really looking forward to that.

I'm trying to get it done by Tuesday so I can just go to my accountant's and be like, "here's the stuff, it's done, go to it." Then I get to watch my hard-earned checking account drain away. Sigh. It'll be worth it to have it behind me, though.

Nothing was taken from that relatively small amount of profit, but I assume it will absolutely drain any chance I have at a refund. (The last few years have been just under $1K.)

I can't see how I can possibly owe you two grand. I'm sure there are people who make twice as much as me who don't owe fuck.

I r queen of last minute taxes.

suckahs :-P

xpost

anyway, you wind up owing money this way:

if you're married, and you mark "married filing jointly" on your withholding forms at work, they withhold LESS money from your check than they would if you marked "single." this is because the tax system (wrongly, in almost all cases) assumes that if you're married and filing jointly, you're supporting your wife. If both people are working, you have to go through the two-earner, two job worksheet to find out what the difference is b/w what they'll withhold and how much taxes you will actually owe. This is almost always short though for some reason. (note: this is all only true for Federal. State, which is what I owe, doesn't bother to give you a nice worksheet to figure this out. They just say "fuck you", give you no tools to find out how much you owe, and then charge you when you're short. This is called "California is broke and squeezing you for money, bitches.").

If your income fluctuates from month to month because of overtime or bonuses or something, then God help you.

Being married sucks for taxes because of this, and also, this: say you make 70k. Say your spouse make 40k. If you're single, you pay the tax rate for someone making 70k, and your spouse would pay the rate for someone making 40k. But if you're married, you pay the rate for ONE income making 110k. Which is a higher percentage than the others. This means you pay more taxes when you're married than single people making the same money. This is called the marriage penalty and everyone thinks that they got rid of it last year. They did, but only for very low income people. The rest of the country (ie: the middle class) gets fucked.

thankfully i make little enuf that this isn't massive chunks of change we're talking about yet.

grrr.

also how fucked up is mass in that you get taxed MORE (and w/o most deductions, no less!) on out-of-state "investment"!? they only let you take out special in-state deductions for it, insteada the gamut, so my education deduction (which is xo!@%$@#ing huge) does no good.

[on the health insurance tip -- i need to figure out how to make sure the plan is "through" the business or whatever. yeah -- a tax atty could actually have probably saved me $ this year. next time round...]

now, if you fuXors only had money i could make a mint representing yer asses come audit time :-)

that said, yeah if you are self-employed and have business expenses you stand a better chance than if you are just self-employed and have no expenses. also, anything having to do w/ "flow-through entities" (basically, partnerships, limited liability companies, and S corporations) get a closer look (b/c of well-publicized instances of outright fraud wr2 such entities).

Audit-wise: I decided (about sixteen hours ago) that unless you're actively trying to scam the IRS, they're not worth getting paranoid about -- not unless you're dealing with really significant sums of money. Which isn't to say that I don't believe they'll audit you, or that it won't suck. But I started thinking about it, and the worst-case audit scenario I can imagine is that I'm unable to back up a couple small claims, which ... well, if you're in the student/freelance range that I am, the worst this could possibly mean is that you do wind up having to pay that $1500 you shaved off of your bill, plus penalties. Which would suck in countless ways, but it's not exactly life-ruining.

(This will be hilarious in fall when I start the thread that goes "they audited me! oh shit! I have to pay $62,000 in penalties or go to jail! I was wrong, I was wrong, I was wrong!")

not to needlessly scare the shit outta anyone (b/c nabisco is basically correct) -- but (a) the IRS has been underfunded for a while now [thankee dubya!] -- there are abusers and scammers who are quite well-known to the IRS and defrauding the government of MILLIONS of dollars, but they don't go after them simply because they don't have the resources to do so; and (b) the IRS HAS recently been going after small-fry "cheaters" esp wr2 the earned-income credit -- not that there isn't fraud and abuse there, but going after them is a political decision by Treasury [thankee again, dubya].

Actually, Tad, it's funny -- you can practically see in the IRS documentation that they're trying to keep people from claiming the EIC. It took me hours to sort through vague, discouraging documentation to see if the dollar limit applied to adjusted gross income or flat earnings, and every other page seemed to be "DO NOT CLAIM THIS, SERIOUSLY, IT'S NOT FOR YOU, DON'T EVEN DO THE WORKSHEET."

What if that same person, flush from her recent successes, tried the same strategy in VA circa '96 and when a letter was sent to her, her mom sent them a letter back saying she was in Japan, and the taxman was not heard from again?

Overheard five minutes later at a different booth: Do you think I should get my blood pressure checked on tax day?! Haha!

Ahh, corporate humor!

Taxes fucking sucked it this year. Bad witholding = I owes .. uh ... LOT. But for the first time ever, I don't owe the city anything.

I'm annoyed at the paltry tuition deductions they allow, too; a $4000/year cap doesn't come anywhere close to reflecting the cost of higher education; it'd barely cover tuition and fees at a community college! (And lord, if there's anything people should be able to spend money on tax-free, it's education that will theoretically lead to their paying a hell of a lot more taxes in the future.)

hey assuming everything goes okay and I have my kid in december, I get to claim it as a deduction for the whole year, right? right?

Thanks for the $5 check I recieved int he mail today. Thanks for spending my tax money and everyone else's on the bookkeeping/paperwork neccesary to send out $5 checks. Really.

xoxo,
mouse

Anyway, I carry all of my delicate financial information to a woman who has an office off of MacArthur down by Starlite, next door to a liquor store. She's got me hundreds of dollars back from the IRS and the state, and she charges me like a hundred bucks to do it.

Are job-hunting expenses also allowed to deducted?

Who brought their 1040 to work today, just in case ILX gets dull?

Do some of you still use paper forms? why?

I owe the Feds $80.07. Haven't tackled NY State yet. Hopefully I will be due $80.07 and all that will be lost is everyone's time.

Doing ours myself this year. Man, it's a lot more of a bitch now than it used to be - joint filing where my wife works in ny but we live in nj. Itemized deductions didn't turn out to be larger than standard so that simplifies things a bit but I'm still trying to figure out the multi-state thing.

For folks who do their own, about how long does/did it take you?

I think my federal took me like four hours, which is sort of ridiculous, but almost all of that time was me chasing red herrings or panicking. Like I spent a lot of time worrying about either deductions or payments I later realized I didn't have to worry about.

A couple of hours fed/state both. Pretty straightforward, really.

i really need to do this. maybe tonight, if i haven't had too much to drink.

I did mine on TurboTax over a couple beers!

aw, fuck. this weekend i guess.
There is no way i'm ever doing my taxes. I would rather pay an obscene amount of money to someone else.

I got my refund back ($1000!) about a month ago. :)

yeah I just did my state one in like 20 minutes so I obviously spent way too much time on the fed. But like I said, I spent most of the time freaking out about complexities that were not actually relevant. Also some confusion about my wife's educational expenses.

Weirdly, it looks like we'll be getting more back from the state than the fed thanks to the property tax deduction for tenants.

AGGHHHH
Goodbye $1800, I'm sorry we never really got to know each other.

the whole working in two different states thing turned out to be a huge hassle, but I mailed all three returns yesterday. Will get a decent chunk of money back. Hooray!

yup, i owed the feds a bunch. even with a decent state return and the economic stimulant, it's still in the red.

Do you have to deal with crazy musician tax issues? I've heard those can be a bitch.

yup, that was the whole problem (i started a thread on IMM about it).

I've never made enough money from music to have that problem.

So if your spouse sets her withholding based on her being the only one with a job, it's a really good idea to change those numbers after you get a job a couple of months later. Especially if you get everything direct deposited and therefore don't give more than a cursory glance to the details on your pay stub after the first one when everything appears OK. You might end up paying the Feds $2200 or so.

fuck fuck fuck.
New York people, can anyone recommend an accountant?

this was the first year since I got married that we didn't owe a bunch of money.

I got cursed with a one-off 1099-MISC last year. Fuck fuck fuck.
(The payment preparation is over at least. Still.)

That said, this is the first time I did my taxes online. The coolest part was the third-party site name: TAXSLAYER!

my bank rejected my direct deposits of my refunds this year; fuck you WaMu!

What? On what basis?

We've finally got our tax appointment tonight. Normally I'd do it myself, but with buying a house we figured we'd get some pro help this year.

I don't know. I'm pretty confident I had my routing number correct.

How does everyone do their taxes online? I did mine online a few years ago, via some company I don't remember liked to on the IRS website. It was all 'Free free free' until I had typed everything in and they charged me a fee for direct deposit or speedy processing or some bullshit. Has anyone else had such an experience?

Wish they were still doing the telefile. That shit was golden.

Big estimated payments based on a fat '07
+ a lean '08
= estimated payments for '09 are COVERED
(with a remainder of $39)

OK, here is a question. If I am new to the US tax system have been paid as an Independent contractor and will receive a 1099, do I have to file estimated taxes forms or can I wait till year end?

You can wait until the end of the year, but depending on how much you end up making an additional penalty and interest could be assessed.

I believe the next estimated tax payment date is Sept 15th, so you have a little time to get with an accountant and figure out your best move. I can't remember for sure because I sort of have a break from paying quarterly estimates this year. (I made so little money last year that the quarterly estimates I paid were enough to cover last year's taxes and this year's as well. ;_;)

It's true, the next installment date is 9/15, and then 1/15/2010 for the final one.

I am unlikely to owe much in terms of taxes as I won't earn a significant amount this year and I think I can count co-pays on medical treatment against tax. I want to stay legal though as I have no desire to be unceremoniously tossed out of the country.

If you're 1099'd you can deduct any health insurance premium you pay from the amount you made too, in addition to any direct medical expense (copays, OTC drugs, prescriptions). Also, lots of other business types of expenses (check out Schedule C). You could just send a token amount in with the proper form (1040-ES voucher) on 9/15 - it only has spots for how much you are enclosing, not how much you think you might make.

The penalty for not paying enough in estimated tax is also based on your previous year's tax. If, as you say, you are "new to the system" then presumably your previous year's tax would be 0, and theoretically you wouldn't get charged a penalty for making no estimated tax payments.

If you're 1099'd you can deduct any health insurance premium you pay from the amount you made too

yes, but being self employed, (which is what being 1099-ed means) you are subject to two different taxes: regular tax on the income tax, and self-employment tax, which is 15.3% of your net income from that 1099 income. Health insurance premiums count against regular income tax, but not self-employment tax.

, in addition to any direct medical expense (copays, OTC drugs, prescriptions).

not really - these deductions go somewhere else - and are the same for people paid as employees

True, schedule C costs vs. itemized deductions for the med expenses. That extra 7.8% of self-employment tax (plus the B&O state tax) almost always makes me rethink the whole "owning a business" deal. I did get some interesting info from Costco (of all places) about a small business/sole proprietorship 401K that looked worth investigating.

Okay, after doing further research, Ed's situation might be more complicated, if he's not a US citizen. Basically, the US system is set up so that an individual shouldn't be paying social security to two countries ... I don't know how it works in other countries - but it is possible that you might be exempt from Self-Employment tax.

I did get some interesting info from Costco (of all places) about a small business/sole proprietorship 401K that looked worth investigating.

But can't you just get a SEP? I think they are actually more flexible (i.e. if you file an extension, you have an extension to make contributions. You can't do that with a 401k as far as I know).

Maybe, I've never been in a position to think about contributing until this year - lots of options to check out I guess. I'm familiar with 401ks from stints of employment, but don't really know anything about SEPs or Keoghs etc.

SEP stands for Self-Employed Pension. A friend of mine who's been self-employed for a long time has one. He really likes the fact that he has that extra time to contribute. I think it's somewhat like an IRA - where you have until the filing deadline to make contributions - except with a SEP, if you file an extension you also have that extra time to figure out how much you want to contribute.

I'm not sure whether this sole proprietor 401k would allow you to deduct the contributions directly from your earnings (like an employee one does). If so, that would make it pretty attractive, because I'm pretty sure the SEP contributions wouldn't reduce your self-employment tax, just the regular income tax, like an IRA.

Done!

Turbotax <3 <3 <3

i also turbotax'd 2day !

OK, I never heard of this Making Work Pay Credit:

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=205922,00.html

I got a check this week, which apparently is actually mine, as a result.

yeah, a lot of people were confused by it. Some hadn't heard of it. Others thought it would be like the rebates/bribes of the Bush years where the checks got sent out before you file.

I mean it was one of those lines I just glossed over on the 1040 w/out wondering what the hell it meant.

did you use computer software or did you do them by hand?

This year I did by hand.

(I've never done software, just that TeleFile stuff in the past)

I ask because I'm pretty sure very few people knew about this credit, and the only reason they actually took it is because they were using computer software that automatically calculated it for them.

does anyone use free file fillable forms and see that you can't select w-2 as one of the forms to fill in even though it tells you to attach it? it was there last year. wha happen? am i wrong?

Going to be using a tax preparer for the first time here this year, came highly recommended from friends. Figured it was about time!

Turbotax'd last year, will probably do it again this year even though my taxes are simpler. I'm willing to pay 50 bucks to not have to run down forms, mail stuff etc.

My dad is an accountant and he's had a little side job as a freelance (not sure this is the right word?) tax preparer for years. Mostly for people from church or neighbors –– business has been very small for years.

He told me and my brother about a new marketing scheme to round up more business. He's going to send friend requests to random strangers on facebook along with a request for him to do their taxes. He'd give a 20% discount if the stranger posted a recommendation for his business on their wall. I said no one would want to give all their private financial/government info to some internet stranger. He said I was a "paranoid pessimist." My brother, whose opinion was sought more eagerly than mine, said that this is the business model camwhores use. He then had to tell my dad what camwhores are. My dad stormed out of the room and said, "I have a paranoid daughter and a son who is addicted to internet pornography."

He does my taxes for free and always does a good job!

Ha, my dad was a freelance tax preparer as a sideline for a few years. But it was pre-Internet, so the marketing was, he printed up a few thousand brochures and paid me and my sister to stomp around neighborhoods in the snow and leave them in people's doors. He got some business that way, but he eventually just got sick of it.

Anyway, just be glad you're too old for him to coerce you into leafleting.

Ha! He had us do that for his tax business back when I was a kid and his roofing business, too. Making a bunch of crazy flyers with about 500 too many words on them was the whole reason he bought a laser printer. When I sold Girl Scout cookies he made me give flyers to everyone or leave them at their doors. You will note self-employed dad pushing his business via Girl Scout onto elderly people who don't want cookies, tax preparation, or roof repair is the opposite of the normal GS cookie model, wherein the girl sits at home and the dad and mom make their coworkers buy scores of Samoas.

For a few late winter months in the early '90s he had his own business space. I remember a lot of complaining about how much everything cost in a business, but especially the cost of the sign. The complaining was probably valid. I thought it was fun that he had his own office I could go visit to read all the Far Sides he'd put up and have a Shasta (generic soda pop) with him. Just my dad by himself in a small office place near a gravel pit. This business was the reason we had a giant sign about tax preparation in our garage.

>My dad stormed out of the room and said, "I have a paranoid daughter and a son who is addicted to internet pornography."

Thank you for brightening a dismal monday at work, irl lols at this.

Your dad is a real accountant, though. He should give it a shot.

webcam tax prep I like it put me in touch with him

i had a client who wanted to have our consultation over skype, so that isn't that ridiculous an idea.

Boo, owing tax this year, due to a massive city tax refund from 2010. (My taxes are very simple and as a dirty foreigner I don't qualify for much in terms of deductions).

Last couple of years I've had refunds so filed quickly, now I shall hold off before paying, between this and being "pre-approved" for a credit card last week I feel very American.

for 2010, but unfortunately, not for this year, there was a lovely deduction that allowed you to subtract self-employed health insurance from your self-employment tax. missing u deduction.

Hooray? (Second year in a row now with one hell of a tax guy, got a very nice refund.)

http://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax-fought-free-simple-tax-filing

norquist connection is interesting.

And with a new year, etc. etc. I bit the bullet and crunched through all my numbers today, taking advantage of a quiet day at home. (Obv. have to wait on the various official forms as well but at least all the other stuff is out of the way.)

I do our taxes rather than pushing it off to hired goons. I've done it all my life. It inspires me to keep our financial life very simple. All that arcana of sheltering income, other than IRAs and 401Ks, is strictly for the wealthy. They love that shit because it increases their wealth and they have hired goons to break their brains over the details for them.

I misunderstood the income reporting part of ACA signup for 2016 and didn't realize it until a helpful heathcare.gov person straightened me out when I signed up for my 2017 plan. Anyway, I was supposed to be getting about $325/month in subsidies, didn't get them, and will theoretically get that money credited to me when I do my federal tax return. So a tentative tax time chaCHING for me.

And I sent in my quarterly estimated last Tuesday.

Everything done, everything filed, waiting on refunds, tax papers packed away for another year, shredding old receipts from seven years back on Monday. How's everyone else doing?

Putting it off for another week. I don't want to know.

probably about 100 more to do, including my own -- I keep putting off opening the SEP-IRA and putting money away for retirement so I can save a much smaller percentage on taxes

It's that time! (Again.) These days I'm incredibly boring and obnoxious -- had all my numbers together right after New Year's, then just waited on the forms to arrive, forwarded everything along to my tax guy, got my return back yesterday, waiting on the refund, etc. Sorry. How's everyone else?

I do our taxes, since our financial life is exceedingly uncomplicated. I have them about 85% complete and expect to finish up this week.

I find it increasingly annoying that our lawmakers cannot resist the temptation to address every social problem by making the income tax more baroque. New exemptions or credits seem to appear every year and each one is heavily qualified, requiring its own set of special calculations. I must calculate each one, and find we qualify for perhaps one in ten of them.

The Oregon tax form that's equivalent to the Federal 1040 now covers two double-sided pages, since the Department of Revenue can no longer fit it all on one double-sided page. Yet, I mistrust the politicians who tout tax simplification, because they all are captive to the rich and to the corporations, and for them "simpler" will undoubtedly mean "working people pay a bigger percentage, businesses and capital will pay less".

I find it increasingly annoying that our lawmakers cannot resist the temptation to address every social problem by making the income tax more baroque.

wow, a Paul Ryan fan on ilx???

seriously, the complexity of the tax code, for the most part, is good, in that economics and issues are complex, and it should reflect that.

The Oregon tax form that's equivalent to the Federal 1040 now covers two double-sided pages

1. That's normal. 2. Use a software program

wow, a Paul Ryan fan on ilx???

do you even bother to read?

oh, I read your post quite thoroughly -- generally people who complain about the tax code being too complicated are conservative republicans, like Ryan, who would prefer to eliminate the significant complexities, which often benefit the working classes, because they address social issues like: the cost of child care for working parents, college and professional education, encouraging low-income people to save for retirement, the high cost of health care, the untaxed transfer of wealth from parents to future generations, and tax evasion practices generally practiced by the wealthy.

xp

the complexity of the tax code, for the most part, is good, in that economics and issues are complex, and it should reflect that.

"The tax code" covers a lot of ground. I was speaking directly to the slice of the tax code that covers personal income taxes. Within the larger tax code, personal income is not "the most part", but a very specific piece of it, which ordinary citizens are expected to understand and comply with. Corporations and the wealthy have accountants who deal with the intricacies of the corporate tax code, and this is where complexity is required to deal with the complexity of the economy you cited.

1. That's normal.

This is not an argument in favor. Normal is not 'good' or 'bad', but simply a statistical observation. Back when something less complex was the norm, that was normal.

2. Use a software program

Data doesn't acquire itself or enter itself. The time savings created by software is not primary to the task.

I was speaking directly to the slice of the tax code that covers personal income taxes.

As was I!

Data doesn't acquire itself or enter itself. The time savings created by software is not primary to the task.

Actually, it can pretty much do so at this point.

Unless you're talking about things like calculating the square footage of a home office, that you will probably want to measure.

there are even apps that track and calculate your mileage.

I'd love to hear how my financial data can be accumulated, analyzed and correctly transferred into tax forms, accurately, safely and with minimal effort on my part. Of course, completely changing how I currently operate my personal finances would not qualify as "minimal effort".

It seems like almost every bank or credit card provider, even some credit unions, can provide you a categorized list of your transactions in csv format, (a lot of their default categorizations of things are kinda worthless).

I'd love to hear how my financial data can be accumulated, analyzed and correctly transferred into tax forms, accurately, safely and with minimal effort on my part.

https://www.intuit.com/

Do any of those banking institutions assume liability for incorrectly categorizing transactions for tax purposes?

I'm sorry, but, considering how much time you spend posting on an internet message board, I don't see why you have any right to complain about having to make a spreadsheet and type numbers into a computer program, that will ask you basic questions and requires little outside knowledge.

Have you ever figured out how much time you've spent interacting with all those apps, banking sites, csv files, bookkeeping software and tax software annually in order to achieve the final results?

I have my doubts about the ease you are promising me, and suspect that it is more a matter of a thousand brief tasks performed throughout the course of a year, each of which seems small in itself, but when collected together add up to a considerable outlay of time and effort.

how much time you spend posting on an internet message board, I don't see why you have any right to complain about having to make a spreadsheet

Sorry. This is not a very persuasive argument. I enjoy time posting on ilx. It is recreational for me. It is hardly comparable to working on taxes.

Have you ever figured out how much time you've spent interacting with all those apps, banking sites, csv files, bookkeeping software and tax software annually in order to achieve the final results?

Yes, I have clients I bill by the hour to do these things for them, so I regularly calculate this. Personally, over half of my income is from self-employment, so the time spent actually translates into dollars saved.

I have my doubts about the ease you are promising me, and suspect that it is more a matter of a thousand brief tasks performed throughout the course of a year, each of which seems small in itself, but when collected together add up to a considerable outlay of time and effort.

Doing it on a regular basis over the course of the year makes it easier. If you have no need or desire to track your income and spending -- most people I know, may not have a desire to track their spending, but they seriously need to -- well, that's very nice for you.

New exemptions or credits seem to appear every year and each one is heavily qualified, requiring its own set of special calculations. I must calculate each one, and find we qualify for perhaps one in ten of them.

Practical tip -- you're probably better off getting software, doing the "user-friendly" interview, and then seeing if you need to do any calculations. Re-reading your post, it sounds like you are making wayyyy more work for yourself than necessary.

What do I need to do other peoples’ taxes? A CPA? I could do this for other people and make money.

you don't need an accounting degree. some states require passing a qualifying exam, and continuing education each year, and having a professional bond -- California and Oregon do, but others uh ... don't. The IRS tried to create a licensing system that had an education component but that got quashed for "states rights" issues. So, depending on where you live, you could just buy pro software and uh, profit.

oh, you would need to get a PTIN, and if you do 10 or more tax returns a year for money, you will need to get an e-file number (EFIN).

I remember learning about the professional bond stuff when I first started working with my tax guy, though it's just an extra form to fill out on my end. Still, interesting to see the bureaucracy at work.

it's cheaper than the insurance a lot of other professions are required to have.

I must calculate each one, and find we qualify for perhaps one in ten of them.

How about figuring out if you qualify and then doing no calculations for the ones you don't qualify for?!?

my (canadian) taxes are extremely simple. i have one employer. they give me a form. i fill the details from that form in on a website that is free. i hit submit. i get a cheque for $7.78 6 weeks later.

I mean I am sure this is just an attempt to use "calculate" as a synonym for pondering, but during a process with actual calculations I think I'd be a little more tight with the terminology.

I have no kids nor significant deductions, but I do own a house and refinanced a mortgage last year. The turbotax site (good ol' intuit corp) took maybe... fifteen minutes this year? To be fair, I have all my tax documents in one pile (bank interest statement, mortgage interest statement, employer tax form, etc) and I'm basically clicking through the same workflow year to year.

It's just a series of "did you do any of the following this year" question lists, followed by a quick data entry question for anything where you answered in the affirmative.

I think the government could easily have a TurboTax-style thing themselves but some lobbying keeps it a private industry.

sorry, that was an xp over jim's description of sublime simplicity

I think the government could easily have a TurboTax-style thing themselves but some lobbying keeps it a private industry.

― mh, Tuesday, March 13, 2018 1:58 PM (one minute ago)

"easily" is questionable. They do subsidize private industry software fees for low-income people with simple returns through the free file program. Should they expand on that? I forget which situations/forms Turbo Tax doesn't cover/exceeds the abilities of the software. I'm sure they increase what it can do each year.

Some background on how Intuit lobbies against tax prep simplification:
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/03/22/521132960/episode-760-tax-hero

well, not "easily" without completely fucking up the current competitive landscape for tax software

they could just nationalize intuit :)

"Easily" in terms of contracting/bidding, determining the parameters,(does it cover everything, how many different languages should it be in, etc.), the user interface, the actual programming is probably pretty simple.

HAHAHAHA

xp - Intuit is not alone -- H&R Block lobbies just as hard for that.

sorry, spent the afternoon reading about business process management tools and the idea that the if/then logic of the tax code is simple to implement blows my mind

tbh the *code* part could be, but only if you used an off the shelf decision engine. the *configuration* would require a staff of full-time business process management advisors, easily

as someone who has paid taxes in four countries, i feel pretty confident in saying that anyone defending the US way of doing it has a kind of sickness

so, uh, that part would also not be easy, either? AHAHAHAH

Is the complexity coming from the interview-based interface of a consumer program like TurboTax? The tax prep chains (Block, Jackson Hewitt, et al) have similar interfaces for their software. Professional programs don't have that.

xp - how do businesses pay taxes in other countries?

the interface probably has its own complexity but I don't really do that kind of stuff

so you *could* use an off the shelf process management engine, but then you have this entire layer of analysis: how do we define eligibility for a specific deduction or exemption? it could be age, income, location, or a weird combination of those things. are they all the same type of qualifiers, or do we have a bunch of different types to define? do deductions interact with each other, and do they do so in a specific way?

there are just a million small process pieces that the IRS has probably modeled out as well, but having all of this as some software-defined state machine is a hell of a lot of analysis and configuration

the process to submit to individual states alone is probably a nightmare

I have a coworker whose partner works in a part of the company that handles employee data, as a software developer, and someone dropped the ball when it came to documenting and handing off the tax return process. She got called in to work on that and did something like a 72 hour week just to get it up and running. Every single state had a different way of submitting the employee income tax file for businesses, and several didn't work.

no idea about business taxation. speaking solely about personal tax here.

seriously, the complexity of the tax code, for the most part, is good, in that economics and issues are complex, and it should reflect that.

lol the complexity of the tax code and its practical implementation in the US is not "good". it is madness and this is stockholm syndrome.

the tax code is not the right place to implement granular redistribution of wealth or personal incentives. if you do you end up with the insanity we have here.

do what the rest of the world does and have like 4ish income tax brackets and handle the rest with cash benefits (that can be means-tested, if you insist or are a tory).

no you have to do all of the things in one place, and that place is a long-form questionnaire

it's just the right way

my family's joint tax return including worksheets is 90 pages this year btw

we'd offer you citizenship to make it easier but we don't really do that these days

working on that, but i wrote diane feinstein a strongly worded email today that ended "i hope i become a citizen so i can vote before you retire", so i may not get it now.

when i permanently move out of the usa, i can't wait til a man wearing a fedora and holding a briefcase hunts me down at my workplace to inform me i need to submit my usa tax form(s)

xp although my tax life will not get any simpler. non-resident visas are different, but h1bs etc. and green card holders are all "US persons" for tax purposes.

no idea about business taxation. speaking solely about personal tax here.

many self-employed people pay their business taxes through the personal tax system. Individuals that are landlords with rental income (and expenses) also pay/report that income through the personal tax system. A lot of the complexities are a result of those things. The purely personal part is fairly simple for most people.

do what the rest of the world does and have like 4ish income tax brackets and handle the rest with cash benefits (that can be means-tested, if you insist or are a tory).

and presumably there are a variety of government departments that handle the different cash benefits?

yes the government handles it

and presumably you are paying more in taxes for the government to handle these things, rather than having a system where the individual has to do a modicum of work on their own behalf?

... or pay a person or company of their choice to do that work?

that seems counter to self-interest, at least for me. For me, it's like arguing that people shouldn't have to cook their own meals, meals should be provided by the government at the prices restaurants charge, no matter if that's significantly more expensive than making your own food, or if they make mistakes.

making tax relief to those who need it dependent on their ability to correctly file their taxes seems kind of cruel and unusual tbh

especially when a lot of those situations involve people who are disabled, poorly-educated, or elderly

my understanding is there was a cabal of evil tax prep companies who successfully lobbied against the IRS (already having most of the documentation needed) providing the option of doing your taxes for you, the resulting cost to the gov't being negligible since they'd have to process your taxes anyway.

xp I think it's more like saying "this is an affirmative government program to make sure these groups get resources" as opposed to "you can keep some of your money if you navigate the system properly and possibly pay a third party to do the paperwork for you (we do not reimburse for the latter)"

lmao yes a 90 page document is a "modicum of work". very good. this is insane.

what costs the economy more: having a not-for-profit centralized shared resource handle something with the economies of scale and fairness that implies, or having every tax payer resolve a complex problem/pay rent-taking for-profit businesses to solve it?

also btw benefits are better than deductions because you can pay them to people who don't pay tax such as poor people.

lmao yes a 90 page document is a "modicum of work". very good. this is insane.

I am guessing that most of those worksheets were filled out by a computer, and it isn't like you personally had to write a 90 page document.

also btw benefits are better than deductions because you can pay them to people who don't pay tax such as poor people.

I really get the sense that you don't really understand the US system and only the parts that apply to you, because there are several sizable benefits that poor people get through the tax system, and one of the main reasons many pay for tax preparation, as opposed to utilizing free resources, is because companies like H&R Block offer "fast refunds" so they can get their $4000 - $6000 in one to two days.

the resulting cost to the gov't being negligible since they'd have to process your taxes anyway.

― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:57 PM (ten minutes ago)

I wouldn't be surprised if there was already a prototype program developed, but it would be a significant cost -- the way they process the returns is a bit different. And their software/systems are super antiquated.

ah yes the poor people assistance program where they can pay a corporation to more quickly receive a once-yearly assistance stipend

I really get the sense that you don't really understand the US system and only the parts that apply to you, because there are several sizable benefits that poor people get through the tax system, and one of the main reasons many pay for tax preparation, as opposed to utilizing free resources, is because companies like H&R Block offer "fast refunds" so they can get their $4000 - $6000 in one to two days.

― sarahell, 13. marts 2018 23:05 (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is absolutely insane

and then they'd take the check to the check cashing place down the street and pay fees for that -- it just really reinforces the inequities in society. And maybe they give additional welfare benefits instead of the Earned Income Tax Credit ... but some agency will be responsible for administration of it.

Actually, you can get subsidies in your paycheck based on the EITC amounts, so in theory, it's not a once-yearly stipend. Employers are required to give notices to employees about it. But I've maybe seen 1 w-2 with that in over 15 years doing taxes for people. There are variety of reasons, some logical, some not.

Like Obamacare was modeled in a way on the Advance EITC concept -- where you get advance payments of the credit, with the idea that you should be getting benefits on a regular basis, and not just one big chunk, once a year -- and then you "settle up" at the end of the year, and maybe you get a bit more credit, and maybe you have to pay some of it back.

I am guessing that most of those worksheets were filled out by a computer, and it isn't like you personally had to write a 90 page document.

correct. i didn't fill out any of it myself. i paid someone. i assume he used a computer.

guess how many pages my tax returns were in australia, germany and the UK btw. (clue: think of a non-negative integer smaller than 1, that is coincidentally equal to the size of my annual tax refund in those countries.)

I really get the sense that you don't really understand the US system and only the parts that apply to you, because there are several sizable benefits that poor people get through the tax system

what benefits does someone with no income get through the tax system?

and one of the main reasons many pay for tax preparation, as opposed to utilizing free resources, is because companies like H&R Block offer "fast refunds" so they can get their $4000 - $6000 in one to two days.

hahahahahahahahahaha

people with no income aren't required to file tax returns.

Right so they cannot get benefits implemented through the tax system.

This is absolutely insane

― Frederik B, Tuesday, March 13, 2018 3:17 PM (one hour ago)

the fast refunds are kinda like the payday loan model, where the fees and interest you pay are reallllllly high, but people pay them. I would point to the numbers, and say, the fees for this would be x, and of the amount you are entitled to, you would only receive y, and they would do it anyway. It made me really aware of my economically privileged upbringing.

Right so they cannot get benefits implemented through the tax system.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing. People that get no benefits through the tax system, that don't have to interact with the tax system, which you think sucks ... so ... your point is?

a benefit system implemented through tax credits and deductions is (i) an unnecessarily complicated way of disbursing money that is more cheaply done through cash benefits (ii) of absolutely no use to people with little or no income (the people who need the benefits) (iii) tremendously popular with tories.

to take an example, parents with children are given a tax deduction in the US. in germany they are given money. the german way is cheaper for the state (and the economy) to adminisister, and it results in the poorest people getting the benefit too.

sadly the german way puts rent-takers like turbotax out of business though :-(

the german way also means that people miss out on the opportunity to lend the federal government $4-6000 dollars for a year, and then pay h&r block a fee to get the loan back in a timely fashion :-(

there should be billboards explaining to people how to adjust their withholding properly so as not to do that but it's basically a secret

my federal refund was like $300 so i was very patient waiting for it

1. in the U.S. the amount you "get" as a parent with children depends on your income. If it is low, you get more, if it is very high, you get none. the government often does not know how much income you have to base that on, until you file your taxes. It's a bit unfair for the government to pay people who are already wealthy the same benefits as people who aren't.

2. some poor parents with children get additional benefits not through the tax system.

1. Means-tested benefits are a thing

2. Yes those are good. More of them.

the tax system pays people who are already wealthy vastly more benefits than to people who aren't

in germany they are given money. the german way is cheaper for the state (and the economy) to adminisister

how do they determine eligibility? how do they prevent against fraud? does everyone get the same benefit? ... not being defensive here, just curious how things work elsewhere.

The key thing about the U.S. system, that I don't really see addressed in the stuff you're saying, caek, is how to determine income (and thus tax), if the government does not know how much income you made.

Unless, the tax ID number of everyone is included in every single transaction, and all cash payments have to be reported as such?

Christ on a fucking bike Sarah. You literally sound like Esther McVey giving a talk to the Taxpayers Alliance here.

sounds like a top bird, then, if she sounds like me.

does she also believe that people who make $500,000 a year shouldn't get tax benefits for having children?

Child benefit for posh ppl over here was done in a few years ago , I think. But I'd say that sounds very bad, but not a justification for hyperbolic nonsense against the poorest of your country.

what hyperbolic nonsense are you referring to?

all of it.

like this?

It's a bit unfair for the government to pay people who are already wealthy the same benefits as people who aren't.

or is the part where I suggested that a system where people have the option of doing things themselves, as the government often makes mistakes or does not advocate for them?

how do they determine eligibility? how do they prevent against fraud? does everyone get the same benefit? ... not being defensive here, just curious how things work elsewhere.

The key thing about the U.S. system, that I don't really see addressed in the stuff you're saying, caek, is how to determine income (and thus tax), if the government does not know how much income you made

Unless, the tax ID number of everyone is included in every single transaction, and all cash payments have to be reported as such?

in the case of kindegeld in germany, I believe that specific benefit is not means tested as it happens, because the goal of is to increase the birth rate not redistribute wealth, but let's say it was.

The government does know how much money you make. You have a taxpayer ID. Your employer reports your income. If you have a business or are self-employed, you report your income (like in the US, although the forms are much simpler for exactly the reasons we're talking about). It uses this knowledge to scale the benefit payment.

Means testing is controversial on the left in countries with a history of benefit payments, and it's wandering off topic, but as a practical matter it totally possible to means-test benefits without making people who are the non-US equivalent of single W2 filers file insanely complicated tax returns.

(and yes, a 1040-EZ is insanely complicated)

it's not really that "unfair," some benefits are just made more visible than others in a way that has no correlation to the magnitude of the benefit. i get way more out of my mortgage interest deduction than i would out of a child tax credit, if i had a child. if everyone got the same benefits maybe rich whiners wouldn't complain (wrongly) that poor people are getting "more" than them from the government. there are other ways. there are other countries that don't make people do cartwheels to show how much they deserve their paltry benefits. somehow their societies are more equal idk how that happens.

btw sarahell, if he's forced to grant some redistribution of wealth rather than a flat tax, guess what side paul ryan is on when it comes to means-tested benefits vs tax deductions.

and just to be clear...

I really get the sense that you don't really understand the US system and only the parts that apply to you, because there are several sizable benefits that poor people get through the tax system, and one of the main reasons many pay for tax preparation, as opposed to utilizing free resources, is because companies like H&R Block offer "fast refunds" so they can get their $4000 - $6000 in one to two days.

this is a sickness

also one of the nice things about a means test is you can apply it to wealth rather than income (which is another reason paul ryan is quite happy to handle the what redistribution there is as part of the income tax system, where taxing wealth is not possible)

i worked for one of those companies for two years, when I started doing taxes. I was told to try to sell the fast refunds, and earned commissions on how many I sold. But people bought them, and paid those fees. Does that make it "right"? I still think it's unethical, but if someone chooses it, and I am not in their situation, I feel kinda awkward saying "this should be illegal."

xp - I disagree with most of Paul Ryan advocates, to be clear, and while I might marginally benefit from the changes he has made to the tax system, I ethically disagree with most of them.

No totally. I’m saying it shouldn’t be necessary. People with simple incomes should not need to be financially sophisticated in order to avoid lending he government money by overpaying, and the government should pay it back without being asked.

People with simple incomes should not need to be financially sophisticated in order to avoid lending he government money by overpaying, and the government should pay it back without being asked.

one of the issues is that it isn't always clear who has a simple income and who doesn't - and there are people who have types of income that have financially sophisticated tax treatments, that might not be financially sophisticated themselves ... I get a handful of "my grandpa died, and i got this thing after he died, and they sent me this form, and I don't know what it is" clients every year.

in the other countries you've lived, does income you receive as a beneficiary of a relative's estate get taxed with your regular income, or does it get taxed at a different time, at different rates, etc.?

I'm getting the impression that the U.S. system combines a bunch of different types of income (and credits) all on one form, that other countries deal with separately, is that the case?

I don’t give a shit about giving a rebate for kids to rich people if we tax them more to begin with. I mean, great, a rich person gets $1k back and a poor person does too. It does a lot more for the poor person Hell, make it even larger.

I think that is what’s missed in thinking rich people shouldn’t get tax credits. They can game the system in a myriad of ways that make tax credits seem minuscule, so why would I care if they deduct things?

Switch to an incentive model or a basic income, then make income taxes progressive.

People with simple incomes should not need to be financially sophisticated in order to avoid lending he government money by overpaying

here's another thing I've learned from doing taxes for other people. Some people know they are lending the government money by overpaying, and are content to do that, because they like getting a big refund at tax time.

i think it's easy to see where sarahell is coming from since she's depended on the current system being the way it is for the past 15 years for her livelihood. it doesn't make it any less insane.

caek's system is obviously much more efficient but hard to argue for when our current government has been hijacked and any efficiencies would just go towards the pentagon and drilling for more oil.

in conclusion, we should all become sovereign citizens and start a noize colony.

and presumably you are paying more in taxes for the government to handle these things, rather than having a system where the individual has to do a modicum of work on their own behalf?

― sarahell, Tuesday, March 13, 2018 5:52 PM (four hours ago) Bookmark

this is insane crypto conservative self sufficiency small government rhetoric, btw. you just can't see it because this is how you make your living!

is it insane in the context of

when our current government has been hijacked and any efficiencies would just go towards the pentagon and drilling for more oil.

if being wary of the government being/becoming run by horrible people, as well as being generally corrupt, inefficient, with a lot of things being politicized in favor of those who the government owes favors makes me "crypto conservative," then I guess I am. Would you rather have feudalism or capitalism? Let's assume for the sake of judgment, this is America and there's no 3rd option.

in the other countries you've lived, does income you receive as a beneficiary of a relative's estate get taxed with your regular income, or does it get taxed at a different time, at different rates, etc.?

― sarahell, Tuesday, March 13, 2018 8:54 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i get what you're saying that "The" tax return in the US serves a lot of purposes. that's not totally untrue, but even a very simple 1040EZ for a person with no dependents and one W2 is qualitatively more complex than the equivalent situation in those other countries.

on the specific issue of inheritance, no idea how it outside the US tbh. but in the US estates are taxed as entities if they're over something ridiculous like $5.5m, but the person who benefits from them is not taxed on that income and doesn't even need to report it. so none of it ends up on individual tax returns and that's not an example of a place in which individual tax returns get more complicated. or am i wrong/missing your point?

(i only know that because we just made an estate plan lol)

or am i wrong/missing your point?

For the most part you are right, but in some cases, beneficiaries will have some investment income and some expenses that are from the estate, before the estate closes, and that income is taxed to the beneficiaries. It also gets confusing, because sometimes it means they have to file a tax return for a state they don't live in.

I had a client, who inherited an investment portfolio that had royalties from oil production and real estate investment partnerships, and they eventually sold those investments, but until they did, they got a lot of confusing forms.

a very simple 1040EZ for a person with no dependents and one W2 is qualitatively more complex than the equivalent situation in those other countries.

I feel like in that case, some simpler option should be available. Like, there are plenty of people with very simple taxes, that the system should simplify. Whether it's a freefile system, or an "if you do not file a tax return, we will calculate things on your behalf and either send you a check or a bill" ... however, if you don't file, and the IRS thinks you owe, they will (eventually) send you a letter that looks like a bill, asking you to pay what they calculated or file a tax return, and it's confusing for financially unsophisticated people, and I think that's a problem.

like the "modicum of effort" quote that apparently marks me as a crypto-conservative ... here are some examples of things that were the context for that. I want to earn my crypto-conservative status ...

1. a grad student gets a fellowship that covers tuition and fees, and also includes money for teaching and research. Based on what is reported by the University to the IRS, the IRS will calculate that the amount in excess of tuition and fees (assuming the University properly reported that amount), is taxable income. However, the tax code says, that the amount in excess of tuition, fees, and expenses is considered taxable income. If the grad student has expenses related to their graduate studies that are paid out of pocket, that would reduce their taxable income. If they just go with what is reported, they end up paying more tax than they should.

2. a single person making $40,000 a year at a day job also makes jewelry and sells it on etsy and at craft fairs, so none of that income is reported to the government. The jewelry business operates at a loss, thus allowing the person a larger tax refund, than if the wages from the day job were considered.

3. a tech bro gets stock options as part of his compensation, and some of the value of those options are included in income on his w-2 and some are reported to the brokerage company, so that when he sells them, the cost/basis reported by the brokerage is inaccurate. He needs to report the amount that is included in income in addition to the amount reported to the brokerage company as the cost/basis of the stock.

Would you rather have feudalism or capitalism? Let's assume for the sake of judgment, this is America and there's no 3rd option.

― sarahell, Tuesday, March 13, 2018 10:35 PM (forty-four minutes ago) Bookmark

artificial distinction - in america, one and the same

1. just consider the whole thing taxable income and have the university gross up the amount is receiving. university bears the burden here.

2. don't allow people to deduct losses. silly

3. cost/basis rules are insane and this is a good example of why they should be done away with

sure if the inheritance is something that generates income like commercial real estate rather than a simple asset or cash then things get complicated for the recipient. i'm sure that's a nightmare in other countries too to be fair.

as an incremental change: there is absolutely no reason [*] why the federal government cannot mail out provisional tax returns in february that assume the only reportable income a person has is income that the payer has already reported to the IRS (W-2, 1099-INT/MISC, etc.) and they're going to take the standard deduction. the recipient then either signs it and they're done, or they file a new tax return that includes all their other income the government doesn't know about and non-standard deductions.

[*] there is of course a reason. it's intuit.

xp to myself for 3, just have the company report the basis directly to the irs. why introduce a self reporting element here? madness

right. unless an individual has business income, they should basically not be corresponding with the IRS. it's totally possible to design a redistributive/progressive tax system that incentivizes things deemed desirable (having kids, installing solar panels, whatever) that works like that. they manage it all over the world.

p.s. eliminate the mortgage interest deduction.

I need to go back and re-read all of this since it bookmarked in a weird place, but I hate how taxes in the US are so archaic that it written to assume one partner (the LADY person) in a marriage does not work.

And also, I can't imagine that the US is different in this regard (yes I can) but we need these convoluted tax codes and deductions and reporting requirements because Americans are assholes who think they know better and want to hide their income and still feel like they are patriots who aren't breaking the law.

p.s. eliminate the mortgage interest deduction.

― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, March 13, 2018 10:41 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this

I under pay the government, just enough to avoid penalty. I prefer to save money myself throughout the year. So I owe a lot this time of year, which I HATE paying. I mean, I love taxes, they are great, but still sending over that money hurts me in the feelings area.

see these comments for a window into the attitude toward users that exists at intuit:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16585473#16586234

here's two quotes from people who (claim to have) worked there

Second, the fact that Quickbooks is so awkward and inconsistent to use isn't a UI problem, it's a feature. This is an important lesson in designing software that people use for their jobs. When you make elegant, intuitive software that almost anyone can use in short order, it stops being an impressive item to put on a resume. And it stops being a barrier to entry for competing professionals. Software like Quickbooks that's hard to use correctly becomes a selling point for bookkeepers and almost accomplishes the same purpose (though to a lesser degree) than professional licensing organizations...it limits the competition and keeps the rates they can charge high.

and

There are psychological phenomena in play that make an existing, market dominant piece of software more successful and harder to displace when it's objectively harder to use when that software forms the basis for someone's job.

And it's important to realize this because this is counterintuitive to what those of us that create software for a living have been taught. We're taught to think like you. We're taught to make software that delights our users and is as easy as possible to use. But understanding a specific set of circumstances when that approach is destined to fail can be important.

I filed our returns today.

ME: maybe the "crumbs will keep coming" with the new tax bill, as ronna mcdaniel claims
TAXES: $3,000, up from a $15 refund or so

Milestones of imperial decline: the IRS’s computer system crashes on Tax Day.

— Doug Henwood (@DougHenwood) April 17, 2018

fucking hell, I went from owing >$250 last year to owing $3000 this year, with only an $800 increase in AGI this year. Christ.

Yeah. The mandatory reductions in withholding from the 2017 tax legislation forced our 2018 taxes owed above $1000, so we'll also owe a penalty of some kind. Unless I can place some kind of withholding on our Social Security we'll probably have to move to estimated quarterly taxes, because our one non-SS pension's W-2 already claims zero exemptions, which maxes out its withholding. Fuck that noise. Filing once a year is bad enough.

good god. I guess it's the witholding reductions plus the elimination of the personal exemption and the famous blue-state fuck you cap on SALT deductions that fucked me this year, and presumably for years to come.

aimless, i though you could ask for additional withholding on your w-4 even with 0 exemptions?

i was fortunate to calculate my taxes in december and realize i was going to owe, so i made an estimated payment before the deadline in january. it's so fucked up. i owed an extra $1000 or so and had to increase my withholding a lot this year. so i got a fake pay bump last january and now i'm poor, even though i am under the SALT cap so i still itemize.

and over the standard deduction, i mean

and my AGI went down this year because of retirement contributions. there's no way to win.

Unless I can place some kind of withholding on our Social Security

you mean above the standard amount they withhold if you say you want taxes withheld? (i think it's 10%?)

IRS giving a 3 month extension on paying taxes owed. They haven't official extended the filing deadline yet.

California has extended the filing deadline and payment deadline until June 15th

Stimulus payment checks: No information available yet
At this time, the IRS does not have any information available yet regarding stimulus or payment checks, which remain under consideration in Congress. Please do not call the IRS about this. When the IRS has more specific details available, we will make it available on this page.

The IRS is a great source of passive-aggressive content

Soooo how's it going for everyone.

Interesting thing I learned -- there's an IRS app that you can use to track refunds etc.; it also serves as a non-texting authenticator, which is a good idea:

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/irs2goapp

And another tax season upon us here in the US -- and yesterday I learned about something important:

https://krebsonsecurity.com/2022/01/irs-will-soon-require-selfies-for-online-access/

The title is clickbaity but accurate -- here's how I summarized it elsewhere for some colleagues:

I wanted to alert everyone about an upcoming change -- which honestly should be getting more publicity that I've seen -- regarding access to one's IRS account and more besides. This article -- Krebs is very much a known name in the information security field, this isn't some rando! -- goes into thankfully patient detail, but in essence the IRS has entered into an agreement with the privacy/identity firm ID.me, which at some point this summer will be the sole way you can access your IRS account online. I'll add that setting up an ID.me account, as I did last night in response to all this, will also cover access to your Social Security account online as well as, as needed, your VA account if you have served in the military. I should note that my experience setting up my ID.me account and then linking everything to the IRS and Social Security was much smoother than the article author's experience, but as he notes, no matter what, the process does involve using a driver's license, state ID card or passport, as well as a biometric element, namely a face scan. This might not be for everyone and Krebs himself is clear about what issues he has with it, so I encourage a careful reading of the article.

But as he concludes: "Over the years, I’ve tried to stress the importance of creating accounts online tied to your various identity, financial and communications services before identity thieves do it for you. But all of those places where you should “Plant Your Flag” conduct identity verification in an automated fashion, using entirely static data points about consumers that have been breached many times over (SSNs, DoBs, etc). Love it or hate it, ID.me is likely to become one of those places where Americans need to plant their flag and mark their territory, if for no other reason than it will probably be needed at some point to manage your relationship with the federal government and/or your state. And given the potential time investment needed to successfully create an ID.me account, it might be a good idea to do that before you’re forced to do so at the last minute (such as waiting until the eleventh hour to pay your quarterly or annual estimated taxes)."

the IRS actually currently uses KBA (the thing where you get a handful of multiple choice questions where one is the name of a street you lived on 25 years ago, so a bit different from the SSN DoB basics), and requires specific info from a prior year tax return ... you don't have to have an IRS account to make estimated tax payments ... in fact, you can mail a check postmarked as of the deadline and they will count it as paid on that date with no penalty. ... sorry, i should totally avoid this thread.

Filed last night.

Not filing till April. I know I'm not getting a refund (I'm a full-time freelancer who refuses to pay quarterly taxes) so fuck 'em.

enjoy your penalties, Phil!

i’m finally catching up on all my years of not filing as an expat and it’s filling me with a profound sense of relief and well-being

Haha yeah I'm in a similar boat except I was mostly "volunteering" for my expat years so only filed for the last one, reported no income.

How's everyone doing. (Filed last week, IRS confirmed receipt, state's being a little sluggish but it can happen.)

Filed in mid-March. I lead a life of life of leisure.

All of California (except for a few outlying counties) have a federal extension until October because the storms constituted a disaster ... so, no rush here

I owe $2300

(i am entering into a payment plan)

Filed last month. Got a nice refund because my old career cratered ($310 in revenue last year) and I still have the same business expenses. I asked my tax guy how long I can pretend to be a DTP/design person claiming losses before the IRS says "no you're a bartender now" -- he said four years, which was reassuringly specific.

I ended up owing for the first time in forever, because I made a fairly basic and stupid mistake when it came to estimated tax payments. My business partner and I switched to a salary system this year to build up some savings for future endeavors, leaving some of our money in the bank each month. But when I made my estimated payments I only counted the money we'd actually disbursed, rather than our actual total business income — stupidly forgetting that the IRS doesn't care which account money is sitting in, you still have to pay taxes on it. So, that was fun.

I figured that out in February, but once I realized we weren't getting a refund I put off filing (and paying) until a few days ago.

I also realized that I think I can claim some bigger refunds from the last few years because of another dumb mistake I've been making — a good argument that maybe I should actually pay someone to do our taxes rather than muddling through on TurboTax. So now I need to spend some time doing that. (Best case, it will offset a chunk of what I just sent them.)

I don't mind paying taxes, but as a small business owner it's pretty complicated!

Guess I better start thinking about doing my taxes

I owe $6 + $10 for my Obamacare plan - that takes TurboTax from free to file to $60 because I owe the $10, so I've got to look at the free filing options this weekend.

I pay somebody to do it because I live overseas and it gets slightly complicated. The child tax credit is netting me $2500 this year after I pay the tax people though, so it is totally worth it to me.

Met this old guy, a friend's father in law, who was complaining about taxes, saying if you live in DC in a $3 million home with two kids in private school that Biden's proposed new capital gains structure imposes an unduly harsh burden. I (in so many words) told him he was full of shit. He apparently literally has a portrait of his Porsche hanging in his house.

Filed in February because I needed my EITC right away. Got $550 back (about a third of what I got last year) and treated it as a fifth paycheck, like I always do.

milo z wrote:

I owe $6 + $10 for my Obamacare plan - that takes TurboTax from free to file to $60 because I owe the $10, so I've got to look at the free filing options this weekend.

I swear I'm not a shill, but I've been using FreeTaxUSA for years with no problem. Federal returns are completely free; they make their money from state income tax returns and optional services. Since my state doesn't have a state income tax, I've never had to pay them a cent to file my returns.

Met this old guy, a friend's father in law, who was complaining about taxes, saying if you live in DC in a $3 million home with two kids in private school that Biden's proposed new capital gains structure imposes an unduly harsh burden. I (in so many words) told him he was full of shit. He apparently literally has a portrait of his Porsche hanging in his house.

So what else did Hugh Hewitt say.

I also realized that I think I can claim some bigger refunds from the last few years because of another dumb mistake I've been making — a good argument that maybe I should actually pay someone to do our taxes rather than muddling through on TurboTax.

After 16 years of Turbotax, I switched to an accountant -- a friend's dad, so he gives me a discount -- and, voila, I'm back to getting returns.

Oh wise soul. (I am a very simple person but getting my yearly return back with all the breakdowns and details is weirdly satisfying if only because so much of it seems based around things I would have never known to look for.)

Douglas Wolk did say as much re getting an accountant way back at the start of the thread, admittedly! Got through the 2000s okay but realized around 2009 I had made a silly mistake and going with an accountant recommended by a friend was the solution, still with said accountant. I remember talking to my dad about it then and he admitted that fairly recently (at the time) he'd done something similar where he realized a good accountant was the best way forward! Live and learn.

I email him three statements at most -- I'm fairly straightforward. But there are deductions and loopholes even TurboTax misses, apparently.

Mine provides a worksheet for a slew of details and expenses I complete and send back, on top of the statements themselves. It means a little work on my part but I've got it down to a science.

as a tax professional, I will say that some people really benefit from having professional help with their taxes, but others are just fine doing it themselves ... as in, there is only so much a professional could do for you that wouldn't be ... fraud ... and the new IRS budget is supposed to increase funding for free file software and technology, which I think is a good thing. A lot of people have pretty simple taxes.

Also we can now electronically file amended returns, so it isn't as much of a pain to correct mistakes as it used to be.

And I'm all for that!

+1 for Free Tax USA, been using for past 3 years - the scammiest sounding tax software possible but that actually is the least scammy out of the free-ish options.

i also used freetax usa for the first few years i was here. seemed fine!

all way too complicated for me now. i could probably do it, but 1) it would take a lot of time, and i'm happy to pay someone else to get that time back 2) i would always worry i screwed up. my previous accountant doubled his prices this year though, so i had a panicky week trying to find someone new. new guy is called joe. he lives on long island and will not work with you without a referral. i love him.

he hates me because i'm english. i think he's irish italian.

there are many reasons why accountants dislike their clients ... I'm on a FB group where we discuss this.

ha! what are the common ones?

outside of the standard dislikeable traits of: not paying the bill, complaining about services being expensive, wanting things done at the last minute:

here are a few common complaints that accountants have about tax clients they dislike:

1. the client that thinks they know as much as the accountant about taxes but often doesn't know what they are talking about
2. the client that continually never has their shit together and always has to be reminded/informed of the same exact things every single year
3. the client that does the thing that the accountant tells them not to do and/or doesn't do the thing the accountant tells them to do (e.g. make estimated payments, pay salary out of an S-Corp) and then blames the accountant for the resulting problems
4. the client that needlessly over-complicates things (as in there is no financial advantage to having the complex business type or series of transactions)
4a. a variant of the needlessly over-complicator -- in the old days this was "the client with the unsorted box of receipts" -- now it's pdfs and folders of receipts for things they can't deduct or income that isn't taxable

oh and #5 -- the bad liar -- any licensed tax preparer has to follow certain ethical guidelines, it's a bit like lawyers (though lawyers have more professional protections) ...

in tax prep, the ethical dance re fraud generally is based on the legal premise that the preparer can take a client's word for things as long as they don't have reason to believe the client is full of shit. Skilled tax people (like lawyers) have ways of phrasing questions or requests for documentation to reduce the likelihood that a client will reveal that they are full of shit. The worst is the one who will volunteer they are full of shit and insist that the preparer go along with the fraud/cheating, sometimes not realizing that they are asking the preparer to do something that could lose them their license.

re: 2, i have my shit together, but i definitely asked the previous accountant the same questions every year. to be fair that was because i wasn't allowed to email them. all communication had to go through a stupid https portal thing and previous year's conversations were impossible to search.

i am becoming a landlord/class traitor this year so looking forward to doing lots of 4a.

all communication had to go through a stupid https portal thing and previous year's conversations were impossible to search.

i hate those things -- a lot of accountants use them now. I am sure a lot of it is because they don't want to deal with coming up with their own computer systems because there was such a standardized way of how things were done in the paper + in-person appointments era ... also most accountants are kinda lazy tbh

So now the Feds are extending deadlines for some storm-ravaged states - what I can't tell is if it's only for people who live in the named counties, or if the new deadline is statewide?

https://www.ktvu.com/news/irs-extends-tax-deadlines-storm-victims-7-states-2023

My tax accountant uses a portal too, I uploaded a lot of stuff but insisted on meeting him personally. I consolidated accounts from three different firms into one this year, it was not all that much money in the long run but I was sweeping over funds including proprietary holdings that had to be liquidated and sold before transfer and including a donor-advised charity fund. I also contributed for the first time to a Roth IRA using the non-taxable portion of my 401k and transferring some taxable money from my IRA.

There were a lot of documents to upload and finances and financial strategy to think about, and I'm grateful that someone else was strategizing about it and explaining it to me

I'm going to do another Roth conversion this year but don't expect my taxes will be very complicated

xp - that deadline was extended back in January (to May) and then extended until October back in early March -- for California, it's almost statewide in that only a few counties are excluded, but the most populous ones are all extended

thanks sarahell - that KTVU article didn't include Alameda (their home base!) and I freaked for a minute but it seems that Alameda IS included

Salute to anyone getting it in under the wire, wherever you are.

on my way to the midnight post office

Direct File is a new tax tool to file your federal taxes directly with the IRS.

currently available in 12 states

https://directfile.irs.gov

I was just collecting and organizing all the information we'll need to do our taxes. It's all ready to go (!) except one or two forms that haven't arrived yet in the mail.

Literally in the same boat here -- one 1099 and the health insurance form. Otherwise just dying to send this all off and be done with it.

Actually correct that, the health form just landed per a check just now. So basically a remaining 1099 theoretically although I'm slightly suspicious about it showing up by tomorrow. (I have the total separately -- not a large amount -- and will roll it in as needed.)

Roffle. And said 1099 JUST landed in my inbox. Timing!

And how are we all doing. (About to send my final paperwork/payment off to my accountants tomorrow and then I just wait...)

Done & filed. State tax refund showed up hours ago. Federal refund due.

Uuuuggghhhhh

Time change, smoke detector battery checks, and tax time

Saw my state and federal refunds pending in my account yesterday.

I always have to pay more, so I procrastinate.

i’m lucky to be able to afford someone to do this for me, as every year i get about $3k back. if it was me doing it i’d either 1) not do it 2) mess it up or 3) spend so long on it that i may as well have paid someone to do it in the first place

133 pages this year. Great system.

Filed in mid-February, got my NJ refund yesterday, which is me cutting my last tie to that state. I are an Montanan now.

Been in the US since last spring, went to see a tax advisor yesterday as we have a slightly confusing set-up with one partner working full-time and income also coming in from a couple of different UK sources. Left the meeting vastly more confused than when I went in, which seems par for the course with accountants going by past experience. Bloody hell I thought dealing with the Inland Revenue was bad!

compared to the inland revenue it is ... unbelievably bad.

Oh jeez Matt#2. This is your first go around then? It is profoundly unpleasant (and expensive).

Been in the US since last spring, went to see a tax advisor yesterday as we have a slightly confusing set-up with one partner working full-time and income also coming in from a couple of different UK sources. Left the meeting vastly more confused than when I went in, which seems par for the course with accountants going by past experience. Bloody hell I thought dealing with the Inland Revenue was bad!

Oh jeez Matt#2. This is your first go around then? It is profoundly unpleasant (and expensive).

American taxes are so dumb. Last year I made a mental error and ended up owing a couple thousand, so I predictably overcorrected for that this year PLUS I didn't account for a couple of changes in our favor — standard deduction went up, IRA contribution limits went up, plus most significantly also our health insurance went from us paying for it ourselves through the marketplace to my wife getting it through work, which means it now comes out pre-tax.

All of which means that even though we on paper made more money this year than last year, our taxable income went down while I boosted my estimated tax payments — so now after owing money last year it looks like we're going to get the biggest refund of our lives this year. Which MAYBE I could've anticipated if I spent more time thinking about all of this or thought about it more than once a year, but anyway it's a dumb system.

And now I'm afraid the big jump in refund will somehow get us audited, but whatever, I think I could survive that.

Every single state and national politician in the USA loves to tinker with the tax code. The result is a mind-boggling complexity that never repeats itself from year to year. The forms keep shape-shifting, the instructions are baroque, credits come and go with bewildering rapidity.

I've kept our financial life as boring and vanilla as it possibly could be and I keep comprehensive records. But I finally gave up doing our taxes because I never knew for sure that the some new wrinkle had been inserted deep into the instructions, so I had to relearn the procedures every year. The tax software helps, but now I just hand it over to a preparer and wash my hands of the whole mess.

I plugged along on my own for some years but I remember Elvis Telecom telling me in the start of the 2000s I should really go for a tax guy. After I realized a couple of long-standing errors in approach that I'd been doing for some time a few years later, I took said advice and frankly I'm all the better for it. My situation is certainly less complex than some but it's not easy plug and play either, and frankly I'll always be reassured knowing someone else's name is on the return as well as mine.

For awhile there weren’t very many changes tbh (between 2000 and 2016) … the last 7 years have been chaotic in comparison. The “evil software companies” love to advertise how many changes there are and how it is just so much that you really need to pay for their software…. the reality is that the vast majority of the changes to the tax code don’t affect the average person’s tax return. Also, as a professional tax person, I have now come around to the concept of the free file, pre-filled click and submit thing for people whose taxes are simple. Like if everything you are taxed on and can deduct is reported to the IRS already, and there isn’t anything else… you shouldn’t have to pay for help or software or spend much time dealing with it.

I can nerd out about it but … yeah, it is dumb

The stupid Trump Cock Jizz Act of 2017 was the biggest set of changes since 1986 … and it has a lot of really stupid provisions that need to go away ASAP

I do my own and it’s medium complex (a bunch of 1099s, plus Burning Ambulance is an LLC) but nothing I can’t handle. People act like taxes are like slide-ruling a mission to Mars but they’re really not IME.

stockholm syndrome

they really did become much more complicated a few years ago for me, but luckily i only have one 1099 this year, so absent some colossal fuckup on our healthcare advocate’s end, we won’t owe money this year— last spring, we got a new coat put on the roof and also owed the IRS $1300 because we made more money than we had predicted on our healthcare forms. doesn’t sound like much but it basically ruined the next four months of our lives.

gonna have to do the installment plan this year :(

It's not impossible to figure out what needs to be done to fill out one's taxes, just detailed, time-consuming and very tiresome. For example, Oregon's lawmakers keep adding credits, then removing them, or changing the qualifications. A few years ago the OR Dept. of Revenue revised their basic tax form from 2 pages to 4 pages. When the big federal tax changes were passed at the tail end of December 2017 it caused states to make cascading revisions to counteract the many punitive features the Republicans inserted just to pwn the libs in the NE and west coast. So, have fun!

People act like taxes are like slide-ruling a mission to Mars but they’re really not IME.

Very much depends on circumstances I think. Mine are more complicated since becoming self-employed, though still not excessively so. We do standard deduction, but if you're in an itemizing-deductions situation, that gets more complicated too. For all the years my wife and were just getting employer W-2s and a little bit of freelance income, yeah, that was easy-peasy.

I have the extra simplicity of living in a state with no income tax. Big change from my NYC years where there was federal, state AND local.

Oregon is a challenge as far as states go, you are otm Aimless. And then there is the Multnomah County form on top of that…

made it

Uhm, for the first time in a long time, we haven't received the refund we are supposedly owed, despite it being more than three weeks (or 21 days) from being submitted. Truly afraid they're gonna audit us, even tho we have little to no money and have been struggling for the past year and a half.

Have you checked the status of the return on the IRS/state website? That will tell you if the refund is processing.

It has been received and is processing.

It was "accepted" by both state and federal the day after I filed, which was a Sunday.

It’s more common to get a correction letter than be audited… like way way more common. Lmk if anyone is interested in hearing more about this… I seriously don’t want to take up space with this stuff if no one gaf

You're in the right thread, have at it

I am deeply interested

Full scale audits are too expensive to impose them on us little people.

I'm in a slightly weird spot myself -- not the end of the world -- where my initial returns went in, but I only got partial refunds back; turns out my preparer -- who I've used for many years! -- missed a bit of coding, so had to send in amended returns. The remainder from the state came back in a week but I haven't seen anything yet from the feds, and given all this there's no way I can immediately track the progress of that amended return. (Unless I'm missing something? Any advice welcome! But larger point here -- table, you're not the only one seeing a delay, so I wouldn't fret here.)

xp lmao it's like if chatgpt got an ilx login

https://trac.syr.edu/reports/706/include/figure2.png

I tried the new free Fed online filing system... just 100,000 used it, so I feel special. We'll see if my refund actually shows up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_YMrHssFXo

that’s what i used too

Full scale audits are too expensive to impose them on us little people.

So … the things that could happen that not getting your refund in 3 weeks could indicate:

1. It might show up next week because of their processing cycle.
2. The IRS thinks there was a mistake:
2a. The IRS fairly primitive computer system matches what you report on your tax return to what others have reported as having been paid to you or received from you.
2b. The IRS rarely gaf if you fail to report student loan interest paid or take a deduction for mortgage interest… so usually it’s an income side mismatch.
2c. If you failed to report income of a type they have on record that you received or if you reported less than what they have on record that you received, they will most likely send you a correction letter.
3. This is a classic pass-agg document that says “you said this” … “however we think you should have said that. If you disagree, file an amended return or contact us, otherwise we will assume we are right and you owe us money.” The document will also come with instructions how to pay them what they think you owe.
4. Sometimes they are wrong.
5. Unless you agree with their corrections, it’s often best to file an amended return because there are potential deductions in relation to the income that the IRS is not going to calculate for you.

Ime the most common things the IRS catches and sends correction letters on are:
1. Unreported self employment income
2. Investment income that is in your name but a relative deals with the account and you don’t have the paperwork sent to you so you often forget it exists (see also: aging parents)
3. Unemployment income for short periods of time
4. Cashing out a retirement plan or life insurance policy from a former job especially if there was hardly any money in it to begin with
5. A w2 from a job you quit in January that you forgot about and they sent it to an old address

6. Investment income from a stock plan from a company you no longer work for because brokerage firms will often not report the basis of employer stock so when you sell it it shows the cost basis as 0 and it looks like you made a huge profit

The IRS fairly primitive computer system

every year I get a letter from them about 1099s and it's like "Sorry, but the name doesn't match the SSN#" and invariably the name DOES match the actual SSN# but their 1953 scanners read the name and/or SS number wrong

We had an issue where the IRS kept saying we owed money that had already been paid long before. We had the receipts and everything, yet every two to three months we went through the cycle of getting a letter in the mail stating we still owed the money > logging in to see that indeed the payment had been made but was listed as "processing" > waiting on hold for two hours for a rep to confirm we had been paid and no need to worry, the system was just lagging behind due to the pandemic backlog > getting another letter stating we owed the money > rinse and repeat for about 16 months before it was finally resolved.

Ugh … sorry.., I mean I don’t work for the IRS so it’s not my fault but

_The IRS fairly primitive computer system_

every year I get a letter from them about 1099s and it's like "Sorry, but the name doesn't match the SSN#" and invariably the name DOES match the actual SSN# but their 1953 scanners read the name and/or SS number wrong

hey guys did you know I'm so baller that in addition to working my full-time job, I made $14,000 in non-employee compensation from DoorDash in 2022?

Me neither! but the IRS seems to think I did!

(i'm not actually even stressed, I'm giggling .....clearly someone fucked up)

i may have questions for this thread as I report this obvious mistake.

Did someone steal your SSN# or something?

i think if someone outright stole it, I'd have noticed before now. but I am checking my credit report just in case.

feel like it's more a case of someone who was keying in an SSN made a one digit error, but who knows.

apparently this is a thing that has happened to other people though:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IRS/comments/18rk1gu/someone_used_my_wifes_social_for_doordash/

Yeah, it's not like DoorDash requires you to show the actual SS Card - you can probably tell them any old number

years ago I worked at design firm and we briefly had a contractor from eastern europe.. I kept asking her to complete the W-2 (she claimed her SSN# was 'private') and when she finally handed it back to me, her SSN# was XXX-XX-1234 .. literally 1234 were the last four digits. Huh, what are the chances of that?

CONFIRMED - IDENTITY STOLEN.

looked at the transcripts and you can see the address that Doordash had for me is one I've never had in history. this should be a fairly easy process to dispute as I can prove on my own credit report I've never lived there. have set up credit freeze and fraud alert on my account. have all of the forms ready to go.

shit, that sucks! Nothing with the IRS is ever quick & easy, tho

they haven't met a guy with infinite patience to be annoying like me before

You will end up getting an IP PIN that they will send you each year until you die

bleh.

looks like the guy got deactivated eons ago but may have actually been using my DoorDash account. cunning.

FTC report and IRS ID theft report filed electronically, just gotta respond to the CP2000 now.

jeeeeezus

Doordash replied with what seems like a form letter to indicate yes it was fraud and they deactivated the account. apparently this happens so much at their great, well-run company that they already have a template for it.

welp that'll make my claim with IRS easier.

Tempted to post in the No Way NYT thread about the morning newsletter that gets a basic analysis of the 2017 TCJA wrong in terms of homeownership deductions… but people would probably be annoyed/disappointed by the banality of my no way

Still no refund. Anticipating full fucking audit and utter financial ruin.

I seriously doubt that, T … re audit

Though I totally understand the anxiety… I remember when I got cited for having “borrowed” registration tags on my car and I had convinced myself that I was going to be sentenced to jail or picking up garbage on the freeway in a yellow vest … I ended up with a $250 fine and that’s it

My tax preparer is a Republican (they're hard to avoid around here), and we've tacitly agreed to avoid politics when I meet with him every year. I asked him if there were any tax credits for our new heat pump, and got in a dig at red states that dragged their feet about implementation of the Inflation Reduction Act, hoping for a Trump win so they wouldn't have to do anything at all. He sent me an info sheet with a list of tax credits, seemingly not specifically tied to the IRA, and said I'd qualify for the $600 for a new AC. I said "what about the $2K further down the page that specifically refers to heat pumps?" He said "oh gosh you're right!" I think I need a new tax person.

I don’t use ILX to solicit clients but if you want to DM me about it…

Huzzah. (Everything is ready, I just need one more form, and it sure would be nice to get that one more form, he said generally to the universe.)

Man there’s stuff I don’t get until well into February

Thought the bump would be with the deadline looming here in the UK.