Tell me more about 2nd and 3rd tier cities

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

I recently moved to Washington and live a little over an hour from Spokane. It's pretty big - metro area is supposedly close to 600,000 people - and isn't really all that bad. The downtown seems to have some revitalization going on, it's pretty from some views, etc. But I'd never have gone out of my way to go there if we didn't live so close. And everyone's heard of Spokane, but when I tell people I live in Washington they assume Seattle and probably couldn't even tell you where Spokane is located.

I lived in Michigan for a long time and Grand Rapids seems to be kind of similar - big town, has its own thing going on, but everyone knows about Detroit even though they probably know that Grand Rapids exists.

I want to know about more of these kind of towns - places that most people have heard of but nobody ever goes to for a vacation or cultural interest. Places that aren't necessarily shitty or dying out or bad in any way, just places that most people might have heard of but know nothing about, that don't have an image or stereotype in the national consciousness. Places that a bunch of people live and do their thing but outsiders aren't all that interested in.

Tulsa? El Paso? Albany? Knoxville? Wichita? Places like that.

― joygoat (joygoat), Sunday, 7 January 2007 19:03 (nineteen years ago)

Grand Rapids is the devil's city, are you kidding me? Gerald R. Ford International Airport now has direct flights twice a day to Washignton DC and quite frankly I don't want anyone from Amway- or Calvinist-land making national policy.

― Laurel (Laurel), Sunday, 7 January 2007 19:09 (nineteen years ago)

And actually it's the second-largest city in the state of MI.

― Laurel (Laurel), Sunday, 7 January 2007 19:10 (nineteen years ago)

I never said Grand Rapids was good. I just cited it as an example of a big city that everyone has probably heard about, but most people probably don't know anything about other than it exists and Ford was recently buried there.

― joygoat (joygoat), Sunday, 7 January 2007 19:14 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, I'm not a good audience for this thread because GR is the nearest large city to my hometown and then I went to college there. They have a Calder stabile that you can climb on, though!

― Laurel (Laurel), Sunday, 7 January 2007 19:18 (nineteen years ago)

I once hitchhiked from ann arbor to grand rapids.

pittsburgh, louisville and cincinnati are decent places to live.

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Sunday, 7 January 2007 19:20 (nineteen years ago)

Little Rock is slowly rising into the 3rd tier. The Clinton Library has a little to do with that as well as simple population growth. One example of our rising star is the area hosting a first round of the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament next year. This comes on the heels of Boise, Idaho, hosting a round and all of us going Wha?

Our travel brouchures still make dubious boasts like the fact that we have the tallest skyscraper between St. Louis and Dallas. But real estate is cheap and everything is less than thirty minutes away. And in thirty years, maybe we'll have a dead president buried here, too.

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Sunday, 7 January 2007 19:36 (nineteen years ago)

I haven't really heard anything good about Spokane, but I've mostly heard about it from friends who were bored teens there.

I think your first tier might be larger than most, though.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Sunday, 7 January 2007 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

I keep hearing about the niceness of Pittsburgh, though I think some of it might be an effect of New Yorkers who want to move in that direction but feel like it'd be cliched to move to Philadelphia.

It seems like the part of our brain that works in categories can only really handle one "main" city per state -- apart from like California and Texas -- so everything else fades a bit. Plus naturally if one city in an area is kinda culturally dominant, it tends to pull people from cities nearly as big and become the center of gravity for identity / personality / culture. E.g., job-wise, arts-wise, and school-wise, plenty of people wind up leaving Grand Rapids for Detroit (or Ann Arbor).

The main ones I can remember liking = Lincoln NE, Ann Arbor and Kalamazoo MI, San Diego CA, Bloomington/Normal IL, and most of the Colorado front range (from Pueblo up through Boulder, though Colorado Springs is admittedly wacko).

― nabisco (nabisco), Sunday, 7 January 2007 20:28 (nineteen years ago)

New Yorkers who want to move in that direction but feel like it'd be cliched to move to Philadelphia.

Fuck those people.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Sunday, 7 January 2007 20:30 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not sure on what basis we're drawing lines, but Pittsburgh and Cincinnati were once 1st tier

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:24 (nineteen years ago)

Well yeah, and steel was once a major source of employment.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:26 (nineteen years ago)

Pittsburgh seemed a really nice city, but did feel a bit out of the way somehow.

richmond, va seems to have potential maybe

i guess 2nd tier cities have the possible problem of being too big to be college towns, but too small to be primate

― Storefront Church (688), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:27 (nineteen years ago)

pittsburgh is awesome

― deej.. (deej..), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:28 (nineteen years ago)

I want to live in a primate!

― nabisco (nabisco), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:32 (nineteen years ago)

I had a fun hanging out in Pittsburgh. I get the impression that much like the less gentrified parts of Philly, it benefits from a combination of decent universities and cheap rent.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:33 (nineteen years ago)

Oh but yeah, I think a lot of the cities I like are ones that are like a college town plopped in the middle of a normal mid-sized city -- e.g. Bloomington IL is like half college and half State Farm Insurance headquarters. (Not that Bloomington/Normal is particularly large.) Also Lincoln, obviously.

― nabisco (nabisco), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:35 (nineteen years ago)

One of my favorite things about Philly is that people can actually afford large enough places to comfortably hang out in, and that plus their generally being poorer means a lot more make-your-own-fun and a lot less droppin' Benjamins going out. I imagine the same is true in many of the "second-tier" cities of which we speak.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:38 (nineteen years ago)

IIRC in the early 80s Pittsburgh lost 1/3 of its population to rustbelt emigration. Cincinnati always seems second-tier to a native like me, in recent years it's been eclipsed by Columbus (which is more like E. Lansing than Ann Arbor collegetown wise.)

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:40 (nineteen years ago)

san diego is a "first tier" city, surely

― timmy tannin (pompous), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:41 (nineteen years ago)

surely for the last 15 years or so, tho San Diegp was once a sleepy navy town when a friend of mine moved there in the late 70s.

I've always heard GREAT things about Richmond VA over the years.

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:42 (nineteen years ago)

I guess by some estimates, yeah -- it's just that it's eclipsed enough by LA that you don't hear a ton about it. (And if you told someone "I'm from Southern California" they'd probably say "oh, you lived around LA?")

― nabisco (nabisco), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:43 (nineteen years ago)

surely for the last 15 years or so, tho San Diegp was once a sleepy navy town when a friend of mine moved there in the late 70s.

Then I moved back. Place hasn't been the same since. (It really has grown over the years, and whenever I go down that way I'm always creeped out by just how big the sprawl has grown.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:45 (nineteen years ago)

columbus, oh

― nazi bikini (harbl), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:47 (nineteen years ago)

not to nitpick but LA eclipses long beach and other such cities in the 200,00 - 400,000 range, san diego is not that close and has a very distinct identity (i mean it is "eclipsed" in the same way nyc eclipses philly, but philly is still a top ten city, as is san diego)
xpost

― timmy tannin (pompous), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:48 (nineteen years ago)

New Jersey is full of second-tier cities (Trenton, Newark, Camden, Atlantic City, Elizabeth, maybe even New Brunswick--although as I type this I wonder if anyone outside of the East Coast has head of these cities besides AC), and if you can get past the high crime rates and general urban decay they can be pretty cool places to hang out.

― max (maxreax), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:50 (nineteen years ago)

What's the first tier, anyway? I can only think of 4 cities that are indisputable: NYC, SF, LA and Chicago--what about Las Vegas, Miami, Philadelphia, Seattle, Portland, Houston, Dallas, NO--are those first tier? Maybe those first four cities are like 0th tier.

― max (maxreax), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:52 (nineteen years ago)

Oh shit, you're totally right -- I didn't know SD was now bigger than, say, Dallas!

Indianapolis has mods and the annual Black Expo, but is creepy in any number of other ways.

― nabisco (nabisco), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:54 (nineteen years ago)

xpost -- It's weird cuz we're talking about both size and cultural capital here. I'd guess that Portland occupies more brainspace for the average ILXor than El Paso (due to cultural exports), but El Paso's bigger.

― nabisco (nabisco), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:56 (nineteen years ago)

I think the best way of judging this is the order cities were chosen as homes for the Real World.

― max (maxreax), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:58 (nineteen years ago)

san fran gets into 1st tier how? cuteness?

― timmy tannin (pompous), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:59 (nineteen years ago)

Third city to host the Real World.

― max (maxreax), Sunday, 7 January 2007 21:59 (nineteen years ago)

funny how dc hasn't been mentioned, best to forget it even exists

― timmy tannin (pompous), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:00 (nineteen years ago)

Thing is theres the thing between traditional manufacturing cities (pittsburgh, baltimore etc), and less traditional cities (san jose), or rapidly growing cities (atlanta, salt lake)

― Storefront Church (688), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:04 (nineteen years ago)

San Jose is bigger than San Francisco, but there's no question which is the first tier city.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:07 (nineteen years ago)

im surprised at anyone considering SF as first tier also. houston makes mpore sense (and by the lack of mentions for dc)

― Storefront Church (688), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:08 (nineteen years ago)

And, I mean, I'd think of Seattle, Portland, Vegas, Detroit, Houston, all as second tier, and something like Newark would be third tier. Philadelphia and Boston are second tier as well. I mean, I'd even hesitate to include Chicago as first tier.

But also I prefer second tier cities.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:10 (nineteen years ago)

now that denver has its own REAL WORLD i figure it must be nearly 2nd tier

and i recently saw an 80's movie starring diane lane called LADY BEWARE that is set in pittsburgh and it looks SO CUTE! it has MOUNTAINS! and bridges and things!

― i've dreamt of rubies! (Mandee), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:10 (nineteen years ago)

my sister lives in lincoln, NE and i always like visiting there. it seems very collegey, but quaint and there's loads of cute guys there. also, omaha is nearby and isnt bad, either. they have a great zoo!

― i've dreamt of rubies! (Mandee), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:12 (nineteen years ago)

But this has nothing to do with what the original poster is concerned with, so.

I just took the train down from Seattle to Portland (finally!) and I was amazed at how much snazzier both Tacoma and Centralia look from the train station. I mean, really, Centralia!

xpost That's the nicest thing I've ever heard about Omaha by a long shot.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:14 (nineteen years ago)

Wait, so are New York and LA the only American cities we're calling "first-tier"? What are the criteria?

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:15 (nineteen years ago)

any opinions here on baltimore?

― Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:15 (nineteen years ago)

They've got it all in Baltimore. There's so much love in Baltimore.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:17 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I think Baltimore is kind of neat from my limited experience.

What does everyone think of Raleigh? I've had great times there, but it does seem like one's options in terms of bars, food, etc. are very limited. I did not like teh Chapel Hill.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:23 (nineteen years ago)

richmond, va seems to have potential maybe

I really liked it there! It is pretty consistently excellent.

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Sunday, 7 January 2007 22:54 (nineteen years ago)

first tier - NY, LA, Chicago, DC, SF, Philadelphia, Boston

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:02 (nineteen years ago)

What's good about Richmond? I have not been but my wife visited a friend there recently and found it dull and conservative.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:09 (nineteen years ago)

firsti-and-a-half tier - Houston, Atlanta, DFW, Detroit, Miami, Phoenix, Seattle, San Diego, Twin Cities
second tier - Cleveland, Denver, St Louis, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Portland, Cincinnati, Las Vegas

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:12 (nineteen years ago)

I guess for me, "first tier" cities are those kind of places that have some sort of pop-culture identity for most of the country, regardless of size. Places like New York, Chicago, LA, SF, Miami, New Orleans, Detroit, Seattle, Philadelphia, and Boston. Maybe Denver, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, St. Louis, DC, Minnapolis, Phoenix, and Baltimore too. The Real World criteria is good. Places with at least one song about them, or a TV show set there, a famous music "scene" at one point in time, a distinctive cuisine or particular dish, etc.

Basically, places that most people could point to on a map tell you a couple of broad concepts / historical facts / landmarks / nicknames about them - Motown, Boston Tea Party, The Windy City, Bourbon Street, South Beach, Liberty Bell, Space Needle, Golden Gate Bridge, Big Apple, Gateway Arch, deep-dish pizza, and so on.

I kind of just wanted to hear random anecdotes about other places that most people have probably heard about, but don't necessarily know anything about.

― joygoat (joygoat), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:16 (nineteen years ago)

Cleveland should maybe be first-and-a-half actually, and Buffalo and Milwaukee may be second tier

I think you should weigh a range of factors - population, density, walkability/transit, arts/high culture presence, nightlife, and history, in addition to pop-culture identity. the hard part is weighing small cities against big ones, i.e. Providence v Phoenix, Santa Fe v San Jose. and also where to draw the line between cities - how do you weigh cities or dense suburbs that are part of other metro areas, like Bridgeport or Baltimore or Fort Worth or Long Beach?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:37 (nineteen years ago)

and how many cities do you deem into existence, like the Hampton Roads area, or Tampa Bay, or eastern LA county?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:38 (nineteen years ago)

I was amazed at how much snazzier both Tacoma and Centralia look from the train station. I mean, really, Centralia!

Heh, I remember this myself, actually. (Nice trip, BTW, glad you enjoyed it!)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:40 (nineteen years ago)

I suppose you should also consider their population outlook, though I would hesitate to do so

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:43 (nineteen years ago)

how relevant to urbanity is globalness?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:46 (nineteen years ago)

Milwaukee, the one time I visited, seemed really nice and liveable. And it has a fantastic bookstore!

Milwaukie, the handful of times I've been there, is a wasteland.

― Casuistry (Chris P), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:49 (nineteen years ago)

DC and Chicago already have their own threads, check them out.

― database update failed (sanskrit), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:51 (nineteen years ago)

places that most people could point to on a map tell you a couple of broad concepts / historical facts / landmarks / nicknames about them

this seems to put a thumb on the scale in favor of how mediated they are

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:59 (nineteen years ago)

though perhaps that's becoming a relevant factor

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 8 January 2007 00:02 (nineteen years ago)

Buffalo, which was once 1st or 2nd tier, about 100 years ago, is (sadly -- hello, Rust Belt!) 3rd tier now, I reckon.

― molly mummenschanz (mollyd), Monday, 8 January 2007 00:08 (nineteen years ago)

rochester, also

albany is like 10th tier :(

― nazi bikini (harbl), Monday, 8 January 2007 00:09 (nineteen years ago)

Yup. Screw you, Erie Canal! What have you done for us lately?

― molly mummenschanz (mollyd), Monday, 8 January 2007 00:12 (nineteen years ago)

Including lesser cities in the first tier diminishes the meaning of the label. New York is in a different tier than Boston, Seattle, and even Chicago. That's just the way it is.

First tier = New York, LA.

Let's be honest, places like Richmond are barely third tier and probably fourth tier.

― Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 8 January 2007 00:13 (nineteen years ago)

i think this thread is third tier, possible even fourth or fifth

― ‘•’u (gear), Monday, 8 January 2007 00:17 (nineteen years ago)

first tier is New York City, Los Angeles, and now San Francisco (well, since the mid '90s)

― database update failed (sanskrit), Monday, 8 January 2007 00:48 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not sure how Chicago wouldn't rate...by things I would rate cities by, Chicago should be up there.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 8 January 2007 00:52 (nineteen years ago)

cultural offerings = almost nil. well, not counting Harpo Productions.

― database update failed (sanskrit), Monday, 8 January 2007 00:53 (nineteen years ago)

Um, just out of self-interest, but where would you rank San Antonio? Not even a tier at all, or... ?

― Phoenix Dancing (krushsister), Monday, 8 January 2007 01:03 (nineteen years ago)

This is a ranking within a country, right?

Most countries have one first-tier city. Many have a couple. I can't think of a country with three or more first-tier cities.

― Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 8 January 2007 01:09 (nineteen years ago)

Thanks to this thread, I really wish I owned royalty-rights to the word "tier".

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Monday, 8 January 2007 01:17 (nineteen years ago)

A precise definition of [a Second-Tier City can be hard to come to, and will always be subject to debate.

― g00blar (gooblar), Monday, 8 January 2007 01:21 (nineteen years ago)

According to that article, my definition of FTC is all wrong. So disregard my posts in this thread.

― Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 8 January 2007 01:36 (nineteen years ago)

cultural offerings = almost nil. well, not counting Harpo Productions.

This is not the impression I have of Chicago. At all.

Like, Art Institute, great jazz music scene, famous orchestra...

― Candy: tastes like chicken, if chicken was a candy. (Austin, Still), Monday, 8 January 2007 01:41 (nineteen years ago)

shed no tears for the second tier city

san antonio is third, austin pretends to be second

― timmy tannin (pompous), Monday, 8 January 2007 01:41 (nineteen years ago)

I guess you could make a super-elite world-class first tier of cities like New York, LA, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc., but otherwise I think if any other American city deserves first-tier status it's Chicago.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 8 January 2007 01:47 (nineteen years ago)

No need to get personal, Timmy!

(bwa-bwaaaaaaa)

Anyway, yeah, I absolutely agree that although it's very good for a southern mid-size city, Austin is in no way a world-class jernt. The whole "Live Music Capital of the World" thing is pretty overblown considering how shitty a lot of the live music is, and the visual art scene is pushing to escape mediocrity.

― Candy: tastes like chicken, if chicken was a candy. (Austin, Still), Monday, 8 January 2007 01:55 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno, Mike. There's second city comedy, which has been somewhat influential. And when I was there in the mid/late 90s, it was THE city for music, though most parties fled for brooklyn and san francisco.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 8 January 2007 02:24 (nineteen years ago)

cultural offerings = almost nil

uh, no

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 8 January 2007 03:35 (nineteen years ago)

the only way Austin and San Antonio get close to 2nd tier is by being combined

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 8 January 2007 03:37 (nineteen years ago)

san antonio has the alamo. that's a cultural offering.

― Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 8 January 2007 03:44 (nineteen years ago)

And when I was there in the mid/late 90s, it was THE city for music, though most parties fled for brooklyn and san francisco.

It's still the home of many significant indie labels.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 8 January 2007 03:51 (nineteen years ago)

AND PITCHFORKMEDIA DOT COM

― max (maxreax), Monday, 8 January 2007 03:53 (nineteen years ago)

Metro-area population-wise, the upper midwest is:
Chicago ~ 9 million
Detroit 4.4 million
Mpls/StP 2.8 million
Cleveland 2.2 million, 2.8 if you include Akron/Canton

I think Cincinnati, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, and Indpls follow closely, maybe in that order.

I consider Chicago first-tier but I'll qualify that by saying I've spent very little time in NY/LA/SF.

― Jeff Wright (JeffW1858), Monday, 8 January 2007 04:01 (nineteen years ago)

Third Tier Represent!
Raleigh=Durham-Chapel-Hill It's the triangle baby!
4th Tier Representin 2!
Asheville in the House!

― earinfections (Nick Twisp), Monday, 8 January 2007 04:32 (nineteen years ago)

My present home, Honolulu, is a real tough nut to crack. It's second tier by several definitions, but third tier by others. It's even first tier by some standards.

― Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 8 January 2007 04:35 (nineteen years ago)

Madison Wisconsin is like 3rd or more like 4th tier but it is a great place to live even if it drives me crazy like a lot.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Monday, 8 January 2007 04:40 (nineteen years ago)

Asheville is more like a 1st or 2nd tier hippie/yuppie destination town than a 4th tier city.

Above Jersey post fails to mention my current home of Jersey City - 2nd largest in population in the state and largest city in land area (there are larger municipalities in area, but they're sprawling). I guess I'd rate JC 3rd tier at best as a city - small, decent art museum, weak library, no real music venues, one or two decent galleries, good food, meh nightlife, etc. But it's basically an sub-boro or a very very close suburb of NYC, depending how you look at it. I still think it's a good place to live.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 8 January 2007 04:44 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I didn't mention JC b/c it seems like a suburb of NYC to me, but I suppose that would sort of disqualify Camden too (and maybe Newark, but I think Newark has a fairly well-defined identity absent of its relationship to NYC).

― max (maxreax), Monday, 8 January 2007 05:07 (nineteen years ago)

Camden is kind of too poor to be a suburb of anything. I mean I don't think you have tons and tons of commuters coming from there.

While we're talking about run-down minor Jersey cities of some cultural significance - how about Paterson?

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 8 January 2007 05:17 (nineteen years ago)

suburbs are inherently non-poor?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 8 January 2007 05:28 (nineteen years ago)

No, I just think "suburb" the way Max was using it implies a certain relationship to a nearby city, and I'm not sure Camden has that.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 8 January 2007 05:39 (nineteen years ago)

To be honest, I don't really know enough about Camden's relationship to Philadelphia to say that for sure.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 8 January 2007 05:41 (nineteen years ago)

Newark is definitely not a suburb of NYC, although it's very close.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Monday, 8 January 2007 06:06 (nineteen years ago)

Um, we have numerous old Spanish missions, not just the Alamo. And we have "La Villita", the tiny original settlement area, as well as the old Spanish governor's palace (when Mexico was a Spanish colony and TX was a part of Mexico), about three good art museums, a Texas history and culture museum, and a central library that's become an attraction in and of itself because of its architecture (a Mexican architect designed it). I'm not saying it's first tier material at all, but I do feel it's highly underrated by outsiders. And sure, it's not exactly a tourist mecca, but if you live here, you want for (almost) nothing.

― Phoenix Dancing (krushsister), Monday, 8 January 2007 06:09 (nineteen years ago)

xpost: Maybe not "suburb" as much as "extension of the urban area" or something. Camden is usually included as part of Philly's metro area, isn't it? And I've seen Newark included (I think) as part of NYC's, but not nearly as universally (unlike JC).

Paterson's great--like 8th-tier in the grand scheme of things, probably. New Jersey is full of nice places that seem bigger than towns but smaller than cities--areas that used to be vital and industrial and are now either dirty and decaying or sort of quaint and homey (like the entire Northern half of the shore).

― max (maxreax), Monday, 8 January 2007 06:12 (nineteen years ago)

150,000 people though, apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paterson%2C_New_Jersey

Not to mention it gave us Ginsberg and William Carlos Williams.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 8 January 2007 06:18 (nineteen years ago)

And Lou Costello! My hometown. Has the Great Falls, Libby's Texas Weiners and then some.

― Jay Vee's Return (Manon_69), Monday, 8 January 2007 07:45 (nineteen years ago)

re: indianapolis my dad (louisville native/cincinnati resident) used to call it "the biggest one-horse town in the world." so there are tiers between the tiers.

like san diego, the tampa/st pete area has grown exponentially in the last decade or two. another old friend of mine moved there around the same time I moved to NYC (early 80s) and he always says it's like a completely different city now.

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 8 January 2007 11:20 (nineteen years ago)

You have to go through Camden to get to undisputed philly suburbs like Cherry Hill, so I don't think it can be considered an independent city. Just cause it's a hellhole doesn't mean it's not a suburb. While there may not be many commuters coming from Camden, it does have an aquarium and a music venue (the tweeter center, I think), that basically "belong" to philadelphia.

― Chris H. (chrisherbert), Monday, 8 January 2007 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

so is this just about cities in the US? we spent the weekend in stuttgart, germany. which i'd only vaguely heard of before our friends moved there, and surely wouldn't have been able to pick out on a map. but it was a great visit and a lovely smallish city! nice restaurants, museums, historical buildings and castles, etc.

― colette (a2lette), Monday, 8 January 2007 18:21 (nineteen years ago)

Take the T's out of Stuttgart, and you get SUGAR!

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Monday, 8 January 2007 18:22 (nineteen years ago)

well, chicago has/had:

michael jordan
al capone
oprah
a frank gehry building......
and they might get the olympics in 2016!

this is kinda a funny debate, but i think really the 1st tier cities in america are just like NYC, LA, Chicago. If any others, SF, Miami.

― phil-two (phil-two), Monday, 8 January 2007 18:24 (nineteen years ago)

On the plus side, the Camden Aquarium is fuckin' great. And I saw, uh, Weezer at the Tweeter Center in high school. But on the minus side, you will get stabbed.

― max (maxreax), Monday, 8 January 2007 19:30 (nineteen years ago)

Stuttgart is home to most of Germany's auto industry (Porsche, Daimler Chrysler).

― Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 8 January 2007 20:41 (nineteen years ago)

Chattanooga has the most beautiful natural setting of any city in the east -- it's on a bend in the Tennessee River between two tall mountains. It is also very pretty architecturally for a Southern city -- it was a bit more industrial than other SE places, so they were too broke to tear everything old down in the postwar years.

There's a good aquarium there and lots of Civil War history, not to mention the charming, venerable tourist traps Rock City and Ruby Falls.

It is also the world headquarters of Krystal and the Birthplace of Putt Putt Golf. Talk about culture...it's like the Florence of Tennessee.

― novamax (novamax), Monday, 8 January 2007 21:41 (nineteen years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city#GaWC_Inventory_of_World_Cities_.281999_Edition.29

― Jeff. (Jeff), Monday, 8 January 2007 22:06 (nineteen years ago)

I referred obliquely to that earlier, but I think we're asking what tier the city is domestically. It's globalness may or may not be relevant to that question.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 8 January 2007 22:16 (nineteen years ago)

lotsa anecdotal ILX action here --> what do you know about KNOXVILLE?

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Monday, 8 January 2007 22:23 (nineteen years ago)

frank gehry building

By this standard Oxnard, CA may move up a tier! The Twin Centers mall (the collection West of Saviers) was remodelled by Gehry (or possibly his office) in the late seventies, before he was very famous. It was not very flamboyant - no curves, etc - and I don't think the locals liked it much; in fact it may have been re-done since then. He left plywood and chain-link fence exposed in the ceiling area.

Would Fresno be 2nd or 3rd tier?

― nickn (nickn), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 00:51 (nineteen years ago)

THIS THREAD

― A B C (sparklecock), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 01:01 (nineteen years ago)

THAT POST

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 01:05 (nineteen years ago)

THIRD TEAR THREAD

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 01:08 (nineteen years ago)

Fresno is the raisin capital of the world.

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 01:12 (nineteen years ago)

Fresno

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 01:13 (nineteen years ago)

Fresno has conjunto

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 01:29 (nineteen years ago)

is that possibly the most annoying cast ever assembled?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 01:31 (nineteen years ago)

"This tastes like fresno!!!"

― nickn (nickn), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:02 (nineteen years ago)

God, the articles linked to on that Wikipedia article make me hate New York City even more than I do now.

― Phoenix Dancing (krushsister), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:11 (nineteen years ago)

Er, never mind. Scratch that. I thought I read that there were no or few connectivities between NYC and other American cities. In actuality, the articles state only a majority of non-American cities in NYC's connections.

― Phoenix Dancing (krushsister), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:18 (nineteen years ago)

But I do feel that the information presented is out of date and biased against the fast-paced growth of the American Southwest. What needs to happen is for the Southwest to collectively announce itself and its opportunities to the global market.

― Phoenix Dancing (krushsister), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:20 (nineteen years ago)

Erm, well, LA already did that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 02:26 (nineteen years ago)

GaWC Inventory of World Cities (1999 Edition)

An attempt to define and categorise world cities was made in 1999 by the Globalization and World Cities Study Group and Network (GaWC), based primarily at Loughborough University in Loughborough, Leicestershire, England. The roster was outlined in the GaWC Research Bulletin 5 and ranked cities based on provision of "advanced producer services" such as accountancy, advertising, finance and law, by international corporations. The GaWC inventory identifies three levels of world cities and several sub-ranks.

Note that this roster generally denotes cities in which there are offices of certain multinational companies providing financial and consulting services rather than other cultural, political, and economic centres. There is a schematic map of GaWC cities at their website.

Alpha world cities (full service world cities)

12 points:

London
New York
Paris
Tokyo

10 points:

Chicago
Frankfurt
Hong Kong
Los Angeles
Milan
Singapore

Beta world cities (major world cities)

9 points:

San Francisco
Sydney
Toronto
Zürich

8 points:

Brussels
Madrid
Mexico City
São Paulo

7 points:

Moscow
Seoul

Gamma world cities (minor world cities)

6 points

Amsterdam
Boston
Caracas
Dallas
Düsseldorf
Geneva
Houston
Jakarta
Johannesburg
Melbourne
Osaka
Prague
Santiago
Taipei
Washington

5 points:

Bangkok
Beijing
Montreal
Rome
Stockholm
Warsaw

4 points:

Atlanta
Barcelona
Berlin
Budapest
Buenos Aires
Copenhagen
Hamburg
Istanbul
Kuala Lumpur
Manila
Miami
Minneapolis
Munich
Shanghai

Evidence of world city formation

Strong evidence

3 points

Athens
Auckland
Dublin
Helsinki
Luxembourg
Lyon
Mumbai
New Delhi
Philadelphia
Rio de Janeiro
Tel Aviv
Vienna

Some evidence

2 points:

Abu Dhabi
Almaty
Birmingham
Bogotá
Bratislava
Brisbane
Bucharest
Cairo
Cleveland
Cologne
Detroit
Dubai
Ho Chi Minh City
Kiev
Lima
Lisbon
Manchester
Montevideo
Oslo
Riyadh
Rotterdam
Seattle
Stuttgart
The Hague
Vancouver

Minimal evidence

1 point:

Adelaide
Antwerp
Aarhus
Baltimore
Bangalore
Bologna
Brasília
Calgary
Cape Town
Colombo
Columbus
Dresden
Edinburgh
Genoa
Glasgow
Gothenburg
Guangzhou
Hanoi
Kansas City
Leeds
Lille
Marseille
Richmond
St. Petersburg
Tashkent
Tehran
Tijuana
Turin
Utrecht
Wellington

― ‘•’u (gear), Friday, 12 January 2007 22:45 (nineteen years ago)

again, I'm not sure about how much the extent to which an American city is a 'world city' should bear, if at all, upon its relative tier as an American city

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 12 January 2007 22:50 (nineteen years ago)

oh sorry i didn't see that previous post, i was sort of zoning out on everything within a two-post radius of your name.

― ‘•’u (gear), Friday, 12 January 2007 22:53 (nineteen years ago)

;-)

― ‘•’u (gear), Friday, 12 January 2007 22:53 (nineteen years ago)

next time i'll repost 1/2 a wikipedia page

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 12 January 2007 23:07 (nineteen years ago)

By this standard Oxnard, CA may move up a tier!

Oxnard is easily second tier.

― cousin larry bundgee (bundgee), Friday, 12 January 2007 23:20 (nineteen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.