the archetypal yuppie of the eighties sounds precisely like, um, everyone you know.

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― PRKLTR (flezaffe), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:15 (eighteen years ago)

The yuppie’s bizarre lifestyle preferences were intended to elicit populist guffaws. Here are some of the things, according to The Yuppie Handbook, that the budding yupster could not live without: gourmet coffee, a Burberry trench coat, expensive running shoes, a Cuisinart, a renovated kitchen with a double sink, smoked mozzarella from Dean & DeLuca, a housekeeper, a mortgage, a Coach bag, a Gucci briefcase, and a Rolex.

Hmmm. I know nobody like this.

― Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:22 (eighteen years ago)

yeah sorry, this isn't my peoples.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:23 (eighteen years ago)

yet.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:24 (eighteen years ago)

yeah well. i guess i know yuppies, but it's not everyone. i doubt any of them would buy a rolly, even then.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:27 (eighteen years ago)

I would love a double sink.

― reverto levidensis (blueski), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:35 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.pestaola.gr/images/p_diddy_cristal_champagne.jpg http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9707/cover3mm.jpg

― Mädchen (Madchen), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:36 (eighteen years ago)

What's a Cuisinart?

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:36 (eighteen years ago)

i have a double sink.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:36 (eighteen years ago)

Cuisinart = fancy word for food processor.

― The Long Grey And Overcast Tea Time Of The Soul (kate), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:37 (eighteen years ago)

You know, it's not until I typed that word that I realised its etymology. I never heard it called anything except a Kwee-zen-art so I never realised it was Cuisine Art. Ha ha ha.

― The Long Grey And Overcast Tea Time Of The Soul (kate), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:38 (eighteen years ago)

who in this bitch has any kind of briefcase, let alone a gucci one?

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:38 (eighteen years ago)

i have a double sink.

more reasons to haet...

― reverto levidensis (blueski), Friday, 12 January 2007 12:39 (eighteen years ago)

cuisinart = art made of cuisinaire rods

http://www.woodentotsmk.co.uk/categories/03wtke/03cuisinaire.jpg

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 12 January 2007 13:17 (eighteen years ago)

how can anyone get by without a double sink? better than sliced bread

― PAUL FUCKING ROBINSON (electricsound), Friday, 12 January 2007 13:20 (eighteen years ago)

Not the George Foreman Grill/Simon Reynolds Roaster/Tom Ewing Toaster then... (Cuisinart xpost)

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 January 2007 13:21 (eighteen years ago)

Actually, I DO have a Burberry trenchcoat. I found it in my parents' back closet - presumably it was either my late grandfather's or belonged to some long gone party guest.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

This describes something like 80% of the people I went to college with.

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

My parents have 3/11 (double sink, Cuisinart, mortgage). I think I have a few friends with the expensive clothes, which is jarring because college students are supposed to be POOR.

― Maria (Maria), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

Ha, totally depends on where you go to college! When you turn around and see the heiresses of Beatrice, John Lithgow's kid, Rupert Murdoch's kid, Al Gore's kids, the Prince of Denmark, etc etc, you start realizing how little money your family actually has.

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:41 (eighteen years ago)

Surely "yuppie" would be an odd designation for the prince of Denmark though.

Wait, is his name Klaus? I think he and the queen visited my high school once! It was bizarre!

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:43 (eighteen years ago)

Haha I'm a posh professional 30-something and I have, uh, a mortgage (wtf?). Does Illy count as gourmet coffee?

― === temporary username === (Mark C), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:44 (eighteen years ago)

I don't remember his name, actually. He was a year below me. He tried to get a rent-controlled apartment!

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:44 (eighteen years ago)

I like nice coffee. I own several pairs of kicks that cost more than $100. I have an 80s Cuisinart that is a motherfucker. It kicks nine kinds of culinary ass, and I can't imagine my kitchen without it. Wish I had a double sink, and often buy cheese in the $12-$25/lb. price range.

The rest of that shit can go fuck.

Am I a yuppie? Do I care?

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:45 (eighteen years ago)

Ah no, Google tells me it must in fact have been the Dutch queen and prince that I am remembering.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:46 (eighteen years ago)

Does Illy count as gourmet coffee?

By 80s standards, duh, obviously. Even by today's standards, duh, obviously. Unless it has to come from the digestive tract of a small mammal to count as gourmet.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:47 (eighteen years ago)

I have a La Pavoni espresso machine, which is pretty fucking yuppie. But also my stove is from the 1960s, you can ski down my floors, and my kitchen cabinet doors are falling off one by one.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

I have a double sink. (God, that sounds lewd) I also have a food processor (crap thing. I love to cook.

Does Illy count as gourmet coffee?
By 80s standards, duh, obviously

WAH?

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:50 (eighteen years ago)

It costs more than $20/lb in the U.S.!

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:54 (eighteen years ago)

Does Illy count as gourmet coffee?

By 80s standards, duh, obviously. Even by today's standards, duh, obviously. Unless it has to come from the digestive tract of a small mammal to count as gourmet.

I was making reference to the thread all about gourmet coffee where pre-ground Illy was considered "not bad immediately after opening". So it seemed sensible to assume that "gourmet" refers to stuff a bit rarer or more expensive or more special than something I bought in Somerfield (low-rent UK supermarket chain).

― === temporary username === (Mark C), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:54 (eighteen years ago)

we have our groceries delivered to our doorstep

― TOMB07 (TOMBOT), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:55 (eighteen years ago)

But Nat, decent coffee has been standard in continental Europe forever. We had to wait until 1997 to get anything that wasn't vile and in granulated form. We are light years behind you coffee-wise.

― Anna (Anna), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)

I don't know if it's "yuppie" to have a few very good items that are necessary for or related to your specialized pursuits (like having a heavy-duty food processor if you do a lot of cooking, tho maybe Cuisinart is high-end even for the high end). I think part of the slide into yuppie-dom is demanding that level of specialization in many or all areas, even those where you aren't really an expert/practitioner...?

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:57 (eighteen years ago)

I was making reference to the thread all about gourmet coffee where pre-ground Illy was considered "not bad immediately after opening".

Oh, well if you're talking the pre-ground stuff in the tins - nothing pre-ground is gourmet by taste standards. But Illy is good coffee and in the U.S. it's expensive.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:57 (eighteen years ago)

And in the 80s in the U.S., whatever the equivalent of Illy was would have been the exclusive province of yuppies.

But you can make "gourmet" coffee with cheaper stuff than Illy.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 15:58 (eighteen years ago)

I had a double sink in my last apartment's kitchen, including one of those spray nozzles that are great for rinsing and for filling the Brita filter when you can't squeeze it in the basin amidst your dirty dishes. Other than that, the apartment wasn't particularly luxurious.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:01 (eighteen years ago)

Yuppiness was all about demonstrating one's sophistication, taste and wealth by knowing what to buy/wear. It assumed that ordinary people just bought ordinary things, whatever cheap crap was available, and that it took an extraordinary person to know the difference between Emmenthaler and "Swiss cheese", between a Rolex and a Swatch, between a BMW and a Camaro.

The yuppies won. Yuppie signifiers of good taste can be bought just about anywhere, by anyone. Izod, Burberry, Henkels, Dean & DeLuca, Starbucks, etc. "Good" scotch. "Good" cheese. We all expect easy access to ostensibly high-quality products at consumer prices. Sur La Table. Design Within Reach. Most of us care about male grooming and the art world.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

i think a britta filter would have appealed to yuppies...

xpost

― colette (a2lette), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

cuisinart = art made of cuisinaire rods

Haha, this is what I thought when I was 7.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 12 January 2007 16:17 (eighteen years ago)

that article makes me feel even more like i'm living in a bubble (held together by the tail end of studentdom + an active creative life) that could pop at any moment. and it will. which is good b/c i will get to buy shoes but which is bad b/c of getting caught up in crap that seems so obviously crappy but lessens in crappiness the closer one is to it. is fear of getting mired in it enough to keep it away? do not want fear, want fulfilling things not emptily signifying things (i think that is the difference btwn the 80s yuppie and now. what do these things actually stand for when "everyone" can have them? (everyone can't. but it seems everyone wants.))

i am moving to the woods and getting a cow and making a garden.
but not for a while.
:/

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

Weird, our house had a double sink for decades. I thought it was a '70s thing.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

I think there ought to be a separate category for the young urban person living way beyond his/her means. I know plenty of people like this in NYC - earning very little money (usually in media-related jobs), but eating/drinking out more often than my wife and I and in fancier places, buying trendier clothing, and filling their (admittedly very small) apartments with higher-end appliances.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

YUDS - Young Urban Deficit Spender

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:28 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, exactly - what's so important about these things that people are willing to go into debt for them?
(kind of a rhetorical question)
xpost

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:29 (eighteen years ago)

we've got a huge double sink in our apt, but it's a pre-war tenement building. i think tenants were supposed to wash clothes and small children in it.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

Easy to say, rrrobyn, if you make your own gourmet cheese!

Beyond Urban Means-er?
Paid In Glamour-ie?

― Paul Eater (eater), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

But now, the smart money is on going down to Lidl.

― mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:33 (eighteen years ago)

the scale of needs and wants as it relates to income anyway has gotten intensely skewed
xpost

haha, omg, the next big thing will be having a place in the country and making yr own gourmet cheese

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:35 (eighteen years ago)

organic-farm yuppies

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

i think there are a fair amount of those already.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:37 (eighteen years ago)

haha, omg, the next big thing will be having a place in the country and making yr own gourmet cheese

Alex James is ahead of you on that one!

― The Long Grey And Overcast Tea Time Of The Soul (kate), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:37 (eighteen years ago)

Already happened!! Time Mag did an article a couple of months ago about people who sold off their start-ups and moved to the country to raise sheep. :D Haha, XXXXP.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:38 (eighteen years ago)

yep - a lot of them are older than mid-30s though, i think?
xpost

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:38 (eighteen years ago)

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh

i am moving to the arctic!!
xpost

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:38 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, there's a weird intersection point bet/w yuppies and hippies in the groceries they buy.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:39 (eighteen years ago)

Well surely that makes them YAFfies or something (Young Affluent Farmer)

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:39 (eighteen years ago)

alice waters has to be a leader in that category.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:40 (eighteen years ago)

well, not the young part.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:41 (eighteen years ago)

I know a few people who've gone farmy. They become about 80% less insufferable, I find, or maybe it's just that you see them less often.

― Paul Eater (eater), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:41 (eighteen years ago)

there's a weird intersection point bet/w yuppies and hippies in the groceries they buy.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0684853787.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:41 (eighteen years ago)

Arbin, I think you should start over-consuming and go into debt ON PURPOSE, y'know like in an ironic way? Soon it will be so POST- that it's PRE-.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

hahaha
i don't think i've ever longed for irony so much
my debt is so unironic!! earnest even!

if moving to the country makes people less assholish, i am all for that, but if it makes them only slightly less assholish but adds self-righteousness...

(holy shit i am misanthropic lately! i love u all!)

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

The "weird intersection" is called Whole Foods.

All that intentional living, slow food and simplicity-in-living stuff is intensely yuppie. Green buildings. Eco tourism. A place in the country. It's the kinder, gentler, 21st century version of yuppiedom: less self-consciously urban, but not really all that different from the 80s model. Bottom line is a fixation on the importance one's own "lifestyle".

Not saying that any of it is bad in any way...

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, I'm sure all of those modern yuppie obsessions that you mention have their good and bad ends of the spectrum*, Hurt, but I just can't get TOO upset about a phenomenon that motivates people to buy fair-trade shade-grown coffee, bike more, drive less, and go on vacations to see native flora & fauna without taking it home with them in the cargo hold.

*I was informed yesterday that even if you buy those eggs from hens that we fed only organic food and raised cage-free, it's STILL NOT ENOUGH if the farmer can't certify that the chickens themselves are, for instance, of a "natural" farm strain that hasn't been crossed with itself six ways to Sunday in order to lay more eggs or etc, and there is only so fucking much I am willing to take responsibility for in my purchasing. Raise your own goddamned chickens if you don't have ANYTHING BETTER TO LOSE SLEEP OVER.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

Organic, environmentally-friendly facial soap that's transported from California to New York ...

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

well, these things are not yuppie but the lifestyle around them is - these things become symbolic of the privilege of being able to choose to live your life that way. in some ways it is selfish and not progressive because of that. but in other ways, hey, it's something. i still think that a lot of people are only going halfway with the 'green living' because it is a consumer lifestyle choice rather than a, er, spiritual one.
xpost

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:54 (eighteen years ago)

beales, you're just fucking wrong.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:54 (eighteen years ago)

I live in portland. There's at least 2 other yuppie/hippie grocery chains around here besides just Whole Foods.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

i would like eggs with a little you-tube of the happy healthy chicken waving at me embedded in them

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

Most of what masquerades as "green living" these days just isn't. It's all about scrubbing your conscience with natural enzymes.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

it's also interesting how the move to the country reflects the nu-yuppie desire for the "authentic" - i think this was discussed on another thread about, uh, furniture?

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

Robyn, you are absolutely right. I forget things like that, because growing up in the country it was different; locally grown foods were actually often cheaper and easier to find than nationally distributed, processed ones...but you still need the broader perspective/education to KNOW to take advantage of them. Plenty of people just ate Kraft products even in the Land of Dairy.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 12 January 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

I know I've told some of these stories before, but for instance: my mother used to place her chicken order with a farm family in our church who raised chickens in their backyard; she'd get like a dozen and freeze them. Or she'd split a cow with someone, ask our wonderful Polish neighbor, who was a meat cutter, to cut and clean it, and we'd have half a locally-raised cow in the freezer for months.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)

"gourmet coffee"

I don't drink coffee.

"a Burberry trench coat"

I bought my trench coat at the thrift store, it was made in eastern europe somewhere roughly 20+ years ago.

"expensive running shoes"

I don't own any running shoes at all.

"a Cuisinart"

uh, I own a blender I guess.

"a renovated kitchen with a double sink"

definitely not.

"smoked mozzarella from Dean & DeLuca"

I don't even know what this is.

"a housekeeper"

hahaha yeah right

"a mortgage"

not yet (soon maybe)

"a Coach bag"

I don't know what this is.

"a Gucci briefcase"

No fucking way. I've never owned a briefcase. do people still use them?

"and a Rolex"

My watch is a Fossil.

"The yuppie could be found working off stress with a shiatsu massage and a facial"

never had either.

"learning as much as possible about fine wine"

I prefer scotch

"traveling around the world on vacation"

okay I definitely do this whenever possible.

"exercising at a fancy health club"

I don't belong to any health club!

"listening to Bessie Smith and Bob Marley and the Police"

Don't own any of the first, Marley is okay, I fuckin hate the Police.

"drinking bottled spring water"

Never.

"freshening up in a five-star-hotel-quality bathroom"

I've never stayed in a five-star hotel in my life.

"typing away at a computer while sitting in an ergonomic chair"

uh, I guess I do this at work.

"racking up gobs of debt on his credit card"

not really.

"and—the clincher—eating tuna sashimi for lunch!"

I hate sushi.

in conclusion DIE YUPPIE SCUM

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

Shakey is not a yuppie.

Hauntology has crabs.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

which was normal for you but is reconfigured as part of a "lifestyle" to some people who didn't grow up in the country and desire these things that actually are sustainable living, etc etc - sustainable = good, but it's also = a minority

as populations are becoming even more centred on cities the world over. i am worried.

xpost
probably telling each other to die is not the right direction either

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:07 (eighteen years ago)

Yuppies who move to the country and start farming are less assholish because they're completely exhausted all the time.

Until a few years later when they come up with a reason to move back to town, that is. Then they tell everyone stories about how much better it was on the farm.

― Stephen X (Stephen X), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:08 (eighteen years ago)

a renovated kitchen with a double sink

I think the key part of this is the "renovated kitchen" not the "double sink". Replace "double sink" with "commercial gas range" or "high-tech refrigerator" or "kitchen island with sink and/or cooktop".

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

so, i mean, for example, sustainable living in densely populated places, in the reality of our situations, would be a better focus than "okay i am going to work and make money and then get outta here and let the others fester and find their own ways while i do my little part b/c i'm not contributing to our Downfall now"
xpost
:/

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

this is sorta the reason i'm not actually going to move to the country or the arctic

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

My friend Megan, who works with immigrants and the poor, likes to remind me that all of us college-educated white people with decent apartments and iPods and such are pretty much yuppies in a lot of people's eyes.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:14 (eighteen years ago)

I think there's some distinction to be made between the archetypal yuppie conspicuous consumption mode of behavior and trying to live a more sustainable, eco-friendly lifestyle but the fact that doing the latter currently can cost quite a pretty penny seems to blur the line in a misleading way.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:15 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, oprah had a show on class difference that was pretty much 'some people buy purses that could sustain an entire family for 2 months'
it was good to see but at the same time, not enough, considering the content of a lot of other oprah eps
xpost

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:17 (eighteen years ago)

because "trying to live a more sustainable, eco-friendly lifestyle" is now being sold in pieces, it would appear to be expensive
it's not

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:20 (eighteen years ago)

that's true in a lot of ways - my veggies from the farm are cheaper than anything at the grocery store, for example. but if I exclusively bought the "organic" shit at the Safeway, no doubt my grocery bill would be higher... conversely riding the bus is WAAAAY cheaper than owning a car, especially in this city.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:21 (eighteen years ago)

"I think there's some distinction to be made between the archetypal yuppie conspicuous consumption mode of behavior and trying to live a more sustainable, eco-friendly lifestyle..."

Shakey's right, but working against this is the fact that for a lot of Whole-Foods-shopping, neo-yuppie, "sustainable living" folks, a better life is something that can be purchased. There's this implicit idea that you should, in fact, purchase a better life, but only if you're sophisticated/evolved enough to know what that means. And can afford it, of course.

Connecting thread: belief that purchases = "lifestyle" = (in some sense) human worth.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:26 (eighteen years ago)

Another connecting thread: tendency to flaunt lifestyle choices as proof of human worth.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:30 (eighteen years ago)

Also the tendency to confuse social and economic status with moral status. Shopping at Wal-mart or eating at McDonalds is seen as a moral failing, when for many people, it's an economic necessity.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:34 (eighteen years ago)

this kind of thing has been going on for a long time - what you buy, what your image is, is what you are, makes you worthy/part of a group etc etc - it is more complex though
i think a lot of people are very confused these days

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:35 (eighteen years ago)

that was xpost - yes, confusion partly b/c moral status comes into it for sure

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:37 (eighteen years ago)

this seems particularly relevant, especially in light of o.nate's comment abt shopping at Walmart/MickeyDs being seen as an economic necessity (sometimes it is, but sometimes it isn't and people just aren't aware of any other options)

http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=1583

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:40 (eighteen years ago)

Rrrobyn: True. And kinda sad. The simplistic, self-righteous tendency to equate moral/human worth with consumer choices has been going on for a long time, but it seems to me that the yuppie trend in the 80s really helped metastasize it into something infecting American culture at every level. I dunno, maybe that's too easy an analysis. (?)

Funny, but ILX often seems like a study of this kind of thinking in action. The music you listen to (and the way you talk about it) = your worth as a person.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:41 (eighteen years ago)

(from that article w/the Nextcourse dude):

"A lot of these women know that eating good food is important for their kids. They know this, and yet they think, "What can I do about this? I can't afford to go to Whole Foods, and I can't afford to eat at Chez Panisse." So we show them where to shop, and every class has a menu. The teacher will shop the day before, both at Safeway or FoodCo or one of these cheap stores and at a farmers market — not at the Ferry Building but at Heart of the City or at Alemany or sometimes just at stores in the Tenderloin. And we line the ingredients up side-by-side and invariably the ingredients from the farmers market, aside from being more nutritious and delicious, are cheaper because we shop seasonally.

All of the cooking takes place with minimal equipment. In the jail we can't use knives. Everything can be done — a salad, a main course, a vegetable — in 25 minutes, and for less than $5 a person. Cooking quickly is all about being organized. We teach them those skills as well.

SFBG How many women have gone through this program?

LB I think it's about 750 now. One of the things that we're moving forward with is finding a way to connect with the women after they leave. One of the new initiatives is working with a postrelease program where there'll be a kitchen so we'll be able to do the classes on an ongoing basis.

SFBG Something that a lot of people don't know is that people who have a felony drug offense can't get food stamps.

LB It was part of that whole clean up drugs thing. It's changed slightly so that now if you have a minor drug offense, you can get food, but if you have a heavier felony offense, it's still not possible. [Assemblymember] Mark Leno is working on fixing it.

SFBG Have you kept in touch with the women from the program?

LB Yeah. We have one woman who found us because we also offer the courses to women who provide day care. She told us, "When I was in jail, I was thinking this was all bullshit. I can't do that. It's going to be too expensive. It's just you white people blowing smoke up our ass. But I got out and now I'm going to the market every week and my kids love it."

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:44 (eighteen years ago)

i have a feeling that moral/human worth dates back to the beginning of humans - consumer choice/consumption has just added to the fun
xpost

things like that are pretty cool

― rrrobyn, breeze blown meadow of cheeriness (rrrobyn), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:47 (eighteen years ago)

"i have a feeling that moral/human worth dates back to the beginning of humans..."

Yup.

***

Shakey:

It's weird how nicely that interview encapsulates both the good and bad of this kinda thing.

"a salad, a main course, a vegetable — in 25 minutes, and for less than $5 a person."

So, she's saying, like, $4 a person? Family of five, two meals a day, that's $40 a day on ingredients! Hell, that's a minimum-wage job, right there.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:52 (eighteen years ago)

Even when there are other options, I'm a bit skeptical of the easy assumption that the Walmart/McDonalds option is really more costly to the environment and society than the more upscale options. It's easy to see a humongous Walmart store as a blight on a neighborhood, when compared to the tasteful, elegant Williams Sonoma or gourmet store in the better part of town where the elite do their shopping, but that analysis overlooks the fact that the Walmart serves many orders of magnitude more people than the little gourmet shop, and there are many economies of scale that make the integrated operations, supply-chain, and transportation systems of the giants more efficient. Buying organic bottled water from Fiji may have more cachet than the Sam's Club version, but think of all the fuel that's burned to get that bottle from Fiji to your shop. Rich people are more likely to travel by air, drive more, consume more, have bigger houses that require more heating and air conditioning, as well as large manicured lawns, and so forth. If everyone consumed like the elite, even if they only bought organic and gourmet, guaranteed sweatshop-free items, I think the impact would be much greater than the impact from the relatively efficient operations of Walmart or McDonalds for serving high numbers of people.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 12 January 2007 17:59 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not sure how the math is arrived at there - but usually you don't use the entire ingredient for each meal (ie if you buy a pound of potatoes you aren't necessarily gonna eat all those potatoes at once). Also $4 per person per meal = McDonald's, pretty much.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:00 (eighteen years ago)

I'm a little mystified that anyone would actually argue that Walmart/McDs are "efficient"

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:02 (eighteen years ago)

(x-postiness!)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:02 (eighteen years ago)

"If everyone consumed like the elite, even if they only bought organic and gourmet, guaranteed sweatshop-free items, I think the impact would be much greater than the impact from the relatively efficient operations of Walmart or McDonalds for serving high numbers of people."

I have no idea whether or not this is true. It assumes a lot (for one thing that the mass purchase of high-moral-value "elite" consumer items wouldn't achieve similar economies of scale), but it's still an intriguing idea.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:03 (eighteen years ago)

There was an article in the local alt-weekly a coupla years back about the local yuppie/hippie propensity for buying local organic produce created enough of a regional market to have several more local family farmers survive.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:08 (eighteen years ago)

Shakey: I'm not at all mystified that someone might fine Wal-Mart "efficient" (McDonald's is a somewhat different story). Wal-Mart is terrifyingly efficient in terms of cost reduction. This often does result in solutions that limit resource consumption, if only by accident.

Agree with you on the price comparison thing, but think the equation of McDonalds with "healthy shopping" is misleading. Poor people shop at McDonald's cuz it's fast. They know it's more expensive than the Hamburger Helper or Kraft Mac 'n' Cheese they might otherwise eat, but they like the convenience.

To make the helper's point work in a real-world sense, you'd have to show that truly healthy fast food can compete with McDonald's' price point, and that truly healthy shopping can compete with Hamburger Helper (at about $1 a serving).

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:09 (eighteen years ago)

Poor people shop at McDonald's cuz it's fast

Exactly, and for someone working two jobs, time is... well, you know the rest.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:10 (eighteen years ago)

my current place is the first place i've ever lived that didn't have a double sink. and remembering some of the places i've lived it's kind of funny to think of it as some sort of desirous yuppie thing.

― chicago kevin (chicago kevin), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:13 (eighteen years ago)

I happily concede that transportation/distribution of "organic" goods is ostensibly less efficient than a huge streamlined corporate operation - however, those are not the only costs involved, and the comparison shouldn't be made exclusively in those terms. There's also the issue of the actual products being sold and what their environmental/social costs are - and those can be pretty tremendous considering what McD's and Walmart actually sell. For example, the environmental costs of McDs beef (which are also transported intercontinentally via fossil fuels) are not pretty. Especially when lined up against organic beef that was grown on a small farm less than 20 miles from where you live.

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:13 (eighteen years ago)

I kind of want to take that class.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:14 (eighteen years ago)

Life passes me by.

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:14 (eighteen years ago)

who in this bitch has any kind of briefcase, let alone a gucci one?

I had to buy one at the thrift shop so I could do this series of photographs for a piece about a businessman who couldn't wait for the boat.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/marthasminions/eric12.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/marthasminions/eric29.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e391/marthasminions/eric36.jpg

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:15 (eighteen years ago)

What is a double sink?

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:15 (eighteen years ago)

Not like anyone really needs to do the whole "worst trendpiece ever" routine here, cause every one of them seems equally unjustified, but seriously: how is it news that the cutting-edge consumer goods of the 80s are more common today? It's like sitting in the 1930s and being amazed that automobiles have proliferated beyond the "insanely rich daredevil" market: umm, duh? What would be newsworthy would be if we suddenly reversed all consumer trends and economic expansion and became some sort of anarchic agrarian society -- see now that would call for a trendpiece.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:16 (eighteen years ago)

Jel, it's a big-ass sink with a divider in the middle so there are two basins.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:16 (eighteen years ago)

A sink with two sides, left and right. One for washing, one for rinsing. I keep my dish drainer right down inside the left one, because I need the counter space for my cappuccino machine.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:17 (eighteen years ago)

I don't ever use my food processor. It totally fucks up raita—liquifies the cukes.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:18 (eighteen years ago)

Blimey! Two basins! Seriously, I don't know anyone who has that.

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:19 (eighteen years ago)

Nabisco: You're a doll, but talking is not always an attempt to impress people who already know everything.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:19 (eighteen years ago)

"What would be newsworthy would be if we suddenly reversed all consumer trends and economic expansion and became some sort of anarchic agrarian society -- see now that would call for a trendpiece."

see all NYT articles on "freak folk" scene

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:19 (eighteen years ago)

Back to the LAND! Let's have a COMMUNE, so we can all grow to HATE each other!

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:23 (eighteen years ago)

We could just get an allotment.

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:26 (eighteen years ago)

Does no one remember "Pat the Yuppie"? It came out in the 80s. It was "Pat the Bunny" except with all the upscale yuppie signifiers, i.e. "FEEL the exposed-brick wall!" "RUB the lambskin driver's seat cover!"

Yuppies were always a little bit retro. People started wearing suspenders again. It was about "quality" stuff. Which to me is about as far from the 90s thing of sleek modernist minimalism and cheap Ikea crap as I can think of (and the NOW thing, since fashion and style have not noticeably changed in 10 years).

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:27 (eighteen years ago)

I know of at least two people now w/ chickens in their backyards. This is in the urban residential sections of Portland.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:27 (eighteen years ago)

Yuppiedom was all about the Beemers.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:28 (eighteen years ago)

I'm sorry, those sentences were atrocious. I need to go home. What I meant was that the 90s thing of sleek minimalism etc. as embodied by Robert DeNiro's apartment in Heat, and Baudrillard's formulation of "ostentatious austerity" has not changed in 10 years. and that 80s yuppie style was very far from that, much less sophisticated, more a kind of clumsily earnest attempt to be more European.

xpost

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:30 (eighteen years ago)

wtf are you on about 80s yuppies had tons of sleek minimalism goin on

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:32 (eighteen years ago)

To me:

Yuppies = brick phone = "Capital City" = negative equity

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:32 (eighteen years ago)

Shakey like what? I'm thinkin leg warmers, exposed brick, sheepskin seat covers, Gucci crap, bowties, suspenders, neatly-trimmed beards, big luxurious turtleneck sweaters, hot cups of San Francisco chocolate, "going to the gym" suddenly a Thing for office drones; what was minimalist? what was austere?

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:36 (eighteen years ago)

Beales, I have no idea WTF you're talking about, but I'm a real human boy, not a doll.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:37 (eighteen years ago)

Yuppies: live in urban lofts, work professional jobs, own (or lust after) sleek minimalist furniture, drive (or lust after) expensive import cars, exercise regularly, care about culture and personal grooming, are conservative.

90s version: same on all counts, but are liberal and in love with a kind of shaggy-dog hipsterism.

Euai is right only in that 80s yuppiedom was more crude and naive in its attempted appropriation of Euro cool signifiers.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:37 (eighteen years ago)

Nagel prints, skinny ties, 80s architecture, new wave music, ad infinitum.

did you actually live through the 80s?

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:38 (eighteen years ago)

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:38 (eighteen years ago)

zomg a generation can comprise seemingly opposing aesthetics at the same time

― cheesesteak and shake (dubplatestyle), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:40 (eighteen years ago)

"Euai is right only in that 80s yuppiedom was more crude and naive in its attempted appropriation of Euro cool signifiers."

OTM

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:41 (eighteen years ago)

"sheepskin seat covers, Gucci crap, bowties, suspenders, neatly-trimmed beards, big luxurious turtleneck sweaters,"

this sounds more like Tucker Carlson (except for the beard part)

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:41 (eighteen years ago)

The main 80s-yuppie minimalism coming to mind for me is in terms of interior decorating, and that's mostly picked up from movies, where the spaces of "family" (good) are cluttered and warm and homey, while the spaces of "yuppies" (bad) are sleek, sterile, all glossy black surfaces and brushed steel with purple track lighting and bursts of hot-pink art.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:42 (eighteen years ago)

alex p. keaton, man for all seasons

― cheesesteak and shake (dubplatestyle), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:43 (eighteen years ago)

haha Nabisco also totally OTM!

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:45 (eighteen years ago)

Blimey! Two basins! Seriously, I don't know anyone who has that.

we had one in our council house!

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:55 (eighteen years ago)

while the spaces of "yuppies" (bad) are sleek, sterile, all glossy black surfaces and brushed steel with purple track lighting and bursts of hot-pink art.

exactly, National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation.

where the ice slides in and breaks all them fancy compact disc players.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 12 January 2007 18:57 (eighteen years ago)

jel is awesome on this thread (as per usual) (and so is mark s)

― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Friday, 12 January 2007 19:02 (eighteen years ago)

Nabisco: Sorry, I'm getting paranoid. I thought you were slamming the cheap, familiar analysis of yesterday's news on display this thread. If not, then I'm a dick, and that comes as no surprise anyway. ILM = mean people, right?

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 19:21 (eighteen years ago)

I'm pretty sure Nabs is, like, the only person on ILX who HASN'T been mean to you, Beales. Do keep up.

― Laurel (Laurel), Friday, 12 January 2007 19:24 (eighteen years ago)

I know. We always hurt the ones we love.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 19:26 (eighteen years ago)

Ha, no, Adam: what I meant was that everyone here on ILX knows that trend pieces are 99% flimsy and ridiculous, to the point where you don't need me saying "b-b-but this trend piece is flimsy and ridiculous because of X, Y, and Z" -- it's like the joke that's too obvious for anyone to actually make it.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 12 January 2007 19:30 (eighteen years ago)

Learning is cool.

― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Friday, 12 January 2007 19:32 (eighteen years ago)

"yuppies" (bad)

I think of yuppies as the cast of "thirtysomething" more than I think of them as Lex Luthor.

― Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 12 January 2007 19:50 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, I wish I could pinpoint the pop culture I'm thinking of here -- I think I'm being swayed by cheap caricatures in stuff like Christmas Vacation and The Baby Boom.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 12 January 2007 20:09 (eighteen years ago)

maybe the neighbors (Julia Louis Dreyfus and someone else) in National Lampoon's Xmas movie?

― fuck you slacks (Mr.Que), Friday, 12 January 2007 20:11 (eighteen years ago)

oh that's what you said. never mind

― fuck you slacks (Mr.Que), Friday, 12 January 2007 20:12 (eighteen years ago)

todd and margot? xpost

― ai lien (kold_krush), Friday, 12 January 2007 20:12 (eighteen years ago)

Miami Vice?

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 12 January 2007 20:13 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, the neighbors in that flick pretty much exemplify this mindset, that yuppies were strident & cold, contemptuous of family(they have no kid and treat Clark's like shit), obsessed w/ conspicuous consumption, etc etc etc.

― kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 12 January 2007 20:35 (eighteen years ago)

Does no one remember "Pat the Yuppie"? It came out in the 80s.

I have that right here! Pat the Money.

"Here are Paul and Judy. They were born before 1960. They're boomers. They can do lots of things.

Then there's you. You were born after 1960. You're a buster. But you can do lots of things too."

"Judy and Paul can hide in their tax shelter.
Now YOU hide in a shelter"

etc.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Friday, 12 January 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

i don't really mind being sort of a yuppie. i didn't grow up with enough $$ to buy nice things and had clothes from yardsales & ate hot dogs and mac and cheese and what vegetables were cheap like rutabaga (ugh). more sushi please

all of us college-educated white people with decent apartments and iPods and such are pretty much yuppies in a lot of people's eyes.
sure. I get bummed sometimes abt how much money and success I see around me here in posh northwest DC and then I think, uh, what is the percentage of people in this country who had the opportunity to get a college degree & then actually finished it? Not high

― dar1a g (daria g), Friday, 12 January 2007 20:47 (eighteen years ago)

i think what nabisco was getting at is that you can purchase a cusinart at walmart these days.

― jambalaya backgammon (grady), Friday, 12 January 2007 20:55 (eighteen years ago)

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