Taking sides: New York vs Chicago (actually a serious question)

If you like to be part of an active social world full of streams of interesting people, and be out of the house and caught up in events all the time -- if you like being in bars and thrive on things getting a little hectic and everyone angling at some interesting thing they're looking to accomplish -- then New York has the edge.

If you like all those things, but also like the idea of having a big homey apartment where you and your close, steady friends hang out on the back deck and drink beer while your dog runs around in the patch of yard below -- if you like all the advantages of a big city but don't feel like going out all the time, and want to maybe be able to afford to buy a nice apartment someday and take it easy a little -- then Chicago is better.

(Neither of those are meant to suggests that you can't find a nice laid-back life in New York, or that you can't live a hectic action-packed life in Chicago -- just that the characters of the cities seem to trend that way.)

culturally, New York is more international, Chicago more all-American. but both are very diverse.

fwiw, Zagat lists twice as many NYC restaurants as Chicago metro area restaurants (and Chicago metro population > NYC population)

That's sort of interesting because Chicago is supposed to be known for all it's great and wonderful food.

Anyway, I think nabisco and gabbneb are both quite right. I like Chicago better, but I totally would.

That's sort of interesting because Chicago is supposed to be known for all it's great and wonderful food.

I don't see how the statistic changes that. Its best restaurants are on par with New York's. But there are fewer of them.

xpost - well, no, I mean that Chicago is known for having a lot of great and wonderful food, not just having some restaurants that are also great and wonderful. I'm not sure what a restaurant has to do to get into Zagats (that's probably very Chicago-y of me to be so unfamiliar with it) but if it's more for fancy places, then I could see Chicago having fewer fancy places than NY. If it's just about quality food of any level of fancy, I could still see NY having more, but maybe not that much more.

yeah, yeah, i know, but it was that or not get round to it during my own working week. i think i'll manage to revive it on monday if dies an early death.

thanks for the responses, everyone, i need to sleep now but will be back to this tomorrow.

But truth be told, both are too goddamned cold.

July high-low
New York - 30-20
Chicago - 29-17
London - 22.3-13.7

TRANSPORTATION: The New York subway network is tightly spaced and allows you to zip pretty quickly to anywhere you might be headed; you will probably not need, want, or even be able to have a car. The Chicago train network will also get you to enough places that you won't need a car, though you might have to do a weird transfer or catch a bus; on the other hand, it's easy and inexpensive if you do want a car, and driving around is pleasant and easy.

SOCIALLY: New Yorkers are out and about and open to strangers, and it's not hard to meet an endless string of interesting and neurotic people; you could book every week full of having a drink with so-and-so and going to an event with so-and-so. Chicagoans tend to be more "normal" and average and Midwestern-style friendly, and a little less into strangers. They spend more time hanging out and having parties in one another's apartments, as opposed to at bars or events. New Yorkers tend toward large, active social circles where you may actually hate half the people in them. Chicagoans tend toward a small circle of good buddies, and there's more of a sense of "what kind of fun could we create right now" than "let's go out to a social / cultural event." (An apt metaphor here might be that New York = going out to bars and doing cocaine, while Chicago = hanging around your friend's place smoking weed.)

STREETS: In most neighborhoods of New York (and anywhere in Manhattan), you will have stores, markets, restaurants, and bars all up and down your street. Buildings are tall and tight; streets are crowded and not exactly clean. In Chicago neighborhoods, stores are more likely to be on the main streets and avenues (say, every fourth block), while the area between is tree-lined and all-residential. (This is true for parts of Brooklyn, too, but I'm generalizing.) That difference of a couple blocks makes a pretty big difference in how your place feels -- perched above the city or off down your pleasant lane.

HOUSING: In just about any neighborhood of Chicago (apart from maybe the central downtown area), two people with entry-level salaries can afford a BIG charming two- or even three-bedroom apartment, with windows and trees outside and a deck in the back -- the kind of place nice enough that you start making it feel like a house. In New York, you don't even bother thinking about living in certain areas, and you lower your standards toward places that are either small or falling apart, and rent eats up a big chunk of whatever money you bring in -- and you're more likely to feel like your apartment is just a home base where you happen to sleep between going out and doing stuff. In the long term, saving up for a condo or apartment in Chicago is feasible; in New York, you're gonna need an inheritance or a trust fund or something. (Plus if the REALLY long term is a consideration, Chicago has suburbs you can very easily move to and drive right into the city; New York has families who wind up moving to Pennsylvania and sending some breadwinner commuting across two states.)

STUFF GOING ON: Oops, people have kinda covered this. Basically Chicago gives you access to most anything you'd want to do -- shows, art, lots of theater, dancing, restaurants, films, etc. You will not miss anything. New York just ups the ante by offering you all of those things, like, every second, to the point where you could go out for the night and flit between six different things, any one of which would have been a good full night in Chicago.

WEATHER: Yes, Chicago winters are colder and snowier. On the plus side, this contributes to Chicago springs being way more joyous and awesome. Plus Chicago has Midwestern rain, which goes hard for ten minutes and stops, as opposed to NYC or London rain, which just goes on for a week. Cold-wise: you get used to it. I grew up in a town nicknamed "Sun City" and never felt that wounded by Chicago cold -- you buy a big-ass jacket and soldier through.

(All of which is me driving at the same point as before: if you feel like going out and being Action Toby and getting constant simulation and taking over the world, then NYC; if you feel like having a nice home and and pets and barbequeing for your friends and being ever so slightly more like Domestic Adult Toby, then Chicago.)

still, i have always been curious about chicago -- so i look forward to reading the comparisons!

well never you mind me

E.g., the big weird thing about describing what Chicago is "like" is that we're all basically talking about the north side right now. (And if Toby's question here has anything whatsoever to do with the University of Chicago, that north/south issue would become way more relevant.) NYC only does this kind of thing with the Bronx -- you know, young professionals aware of some huge section of the city where minorities live, but never finding any reason to go there or think about it much at all, as if it's some whole other city.

the metropolitan region? I live in queens which is generally considered the most diverse county in america.

As far as restaurants go, I think Chicago has the edge on cheap authentic ethnic foods, but I probably only think so because I have access to my parents car in Chicago so I can drive to all the ethnic neighborhoods, but in NYC I'm not trying to sit on the subway for an hour to get to Flushing, Hunts Point, Elmhurst, wherever. But in Chicago, I really want to go to Alinea and Schwa.

Oh, but I do get bored at night in Chicago...

I can't take sides, except in that I live in Chicago. Ever since I can remember I have had a thing for NYC, but the NYC I am in love with is the East Village of the mid-80's, at least as I came to comprehend it as a youngster. When I visited for the first time in the late 90's I realized that it was a lot less gritty and (I hate to say it) edgy than I had hoped; even so, I loved it wholeheartedly and still do.

I moved to Chicago looking for a easier to manage replacement for NYC, and while I know I can never find that, I like Chicago a lot--it is much more affordable and manageable, and it feels like home now. Still, there is no substitute for NYC.

Well, I think because no one actually for real thinks that Chicago is overall a "better" city than NY. I mean, I love Chicago and all, but...

and speaking of which, jess, there are parts of the outer boroughs that recreate aspects of the e. village in the 80s, but it's definitely a different experience for many reasons.

xpost....

Chicago feels like I imagine Brooklyn or Queens to feel. Manhattan feels like its own crazy place totally different from Chicago, like downtown Chicago time twenty plus residents and businesses and more all-encompassing train systems and all of that. They just feel totally different to me.

I'll be in NY in March and hope to check out the non-Manhattan areas a bit more. I'll see how they feel compared to Chicago, which I got to know much better after having been to NY.

Bug what do I know, I live in remote-ass Washington right now. I just love and am fascinated by cities.

Well, I think because no one actually for real thinks that Chicago is overall a "better" city than NY. I mean, I love Chicago and all, but...

i'm not sure how you can simultaneously make this statement and place "better" in scare quotes. what point, exactly, are you trying to get across?

"You've heard." The fact is Chicago is merely more honest about its political shortcomings (vast Democratic power being viewed as a serious political threat to the right and always has been.)

But what's most appalling about your post is that Chicago is known for its diverse and influential theater scene.

yeah, where's my internecine warfare on this thread?

I imagine it comes down to which city you like the feel of better. For some reason, I've always liked the energy of NY, but I tend to get a bit annoyed by what N. refers as the interesting people doing interesting things. I don't know, I think that some people get pretty impressed with themselves and their minor aesthetic dilletantism, and it gets pretty annoying really. On the other hand, it's really easy to live a provincial life within NYC--stay within your own neighborhood, see your own few friends, and not really involve yourself in the whole scene of the place, except when you want to for example go to a great restaurant or exhibit at a musuem.

When friends from abroad come to the United States, I always send them to Chicago, or try to. It is the quintessential American city: muscular, inventive, wonderfully diverse, and as unpretentious as its prairie-flat vowels. ...Chicago was maligned for years for its cheerful civic corruption and dismissed in the effete East as a hick town... But no longer. Chicago entered the twenty-first century with a growing population... a prosperous and well-governed model for the country at large. ...At the moment, Richard M. Daley does the governing. ..."Richie" to his constituents--never loses sight of his grand goal: ensuring the city's future by persuading its middle class to stay put.

There is nothing Old World about Chicago. Europe seems farther away than it does in Boston, New York or even San Francisco. And yet the genius who did more than anyone to give the city its physical charm--the architect and master builder Daniel H. Burnham, who planned waterfront pleasure parks and scenic drives where other cities have factories and warehouses--did so in the name of transforming Chicago into Paris on the Lake.

Don't ask what Chicago is, a song warns, "unless you've got an hour or two or three." Chicago is many things: the fabulous Frango chocolate mints that they sell at Marshall Field's department store; Oprah Winfrey, queen of television talk shows... the Museum of Science and Industry, the youngsters' favorite, housed in one of the last buildings left from the Columbian Exposition of 1893, which drew an unheard-of 23 million visitors...

Chicago is good eats, like the frogs' legs at Phil Smidt's in Hammond, Indiana, just across the city line, amid the smoke-stacks of the old industrial economy, and Italian beef sandwiches and garlicky Chicago hot dogs (hold the ketchup). Fancy stuff, too...

Chicago is also a city of tight-knit neighborhoods, so far-flung that the visitor can sample but a few. In the northwest, along gritty Milwaukee and Lincoln Avenues, far from Michigan Avenue's glittering Magnificent Mile, where the affluent and the ambitious shop, immigrants have lived since the nineteenth century: first Germans and Scandinavians, then Poles, Russian Jews, Italians, Ukrainins, Slovaks, and recently Puerto Ricans.

The South Side was America's largest black community for most of the last century. It is home today to Jesse Jackson and Louis Farrakhan, two very different black leaders... Also to the south is the world-class University of Chicago, founded in 1890 with Rockefeller money. No fewer than seventy-four Nobel Prizes have been awarded to its teachers, students, and researchers.

[T]he birthplace of modern American architecture, and of the skyscraper, was the Loop, as the central business district is known (after the elevated railroad tracks that encircle it). Chicago architects capitalized on the fire of 1871, which began in Patrick and Catherine O'Leary's barn on DeKoven Street, much as Christopher Wren capitalized on London's Great Fire of 1666. ...Louis Sullivan, Richardson's disciple and Wright's teacher, sensed "an intoxicating rawness, a sense of big things to be done" ...in 1899 Sullivan, in the Carson Pirie Scott & Company store, frankly expressed the revolutionary steel grid in bands of windows that became a Chicago School trademark. ...Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, the German master who helped found the Bauhaus, came to Chicago in 1938 and reinvigorated its archtecture... From Mies's work grew such landmarks as the John Hancock Tower

...But it is for paintings that the Art Institute, a "universal" museum like the Metropolitan and the Louvre, is best known... Farther up Michigan Avenue, the excellent Museum of Contemporary Art showcases its own holdings... The museum looks out across a cityscape typical of this part of Chicago, with wide tree-lined sidewalks and an agreeable little park surrounded on three sides by tall buildings.

Chicago loves its sports. It loves the Cubs and their cozy little park, Wrigley Field, with ivy-covered outfield walls and seldom-used floodllights. ... Air Jordan and the Bulls carried the city's name around the globe; so did Sir Georg Solti and the mighty Chicago Symphony Orchestra, which he made one of the finest on earth. ...Big-league drama abounds in the Windy City, which supports nearly two hundred theater companies. ...Steppenwolf helped propel David Mamet and John Malkovich to fame ...Second City, a mecca for comedy since 1959, launched the careers of John Belushi, Bill Murray, Gilda Radner, and many others.

...Chicago is no longer "hog butcher to the world." Only a gate adorned with a bas-relief of a Hereford steer remains of the Union Stockyards, where in 1892 alone 2.5 million cattle and 5 million hogs were slaughtered. Many big Chicago corporations like Walgreen's, United Air Lines, Motorola, and Sears, which abandoned its spectacular skyscraper in the Loop, are now headquartered in the suburbs. ...At the foot of La Salle Street, in a splendid Art Deco building with a statue of Ceres on top, is the headquarters of the Chicago Board of Trade, where commodity traders do their incomprehensible thing. "Few economic institutions," the historian William J. Cronon tells us sternly in Nature's Metropolis, "more powerfully affect human communities and natural ecosystems in the modern capitalist world..."

Meanwhile, allow me to shill for a moment for Chicago's other writers: the early reformers and novelists Frank Norris and Upton Sinclair... Theodore Dreiser... James T. Farrell, whose Studs Lonigan is set in one part of the South Side, and Richard Wright, whose Native Son is set in another... and the poet Carl Sandburg, who gave Chicago its overfamiliar nickname, "City of the Big Soulders." More recently, the city and its ways have been vividly depicted by the late Mike Royko, the irascible columnist; Studs Terkel, the oral historian; the novelist Ward Just... I particularly like Just's description of Chicago as a city with "its fedora pulled down over one eye."

A moment, too, for the popular arts: the blues that Muddy Waters and other black musicians brought up the Illinois Central from the Mississippi Delta; the jazz that King Oliver and Louis Armstrong brought to the South Side, echoed by white kids from the suburbs like Benny Goodman and Eddie Condon...

It was Sinatra's kind of town, and it is mine, too.

this is from a book profiling 50 American cities. New York is not included therein because a) it was written to some extent for New Yorkers, b) while he could have condensed it to another little chapter, arguably New York deserves its own slim volume, and c) the author did not wish to compete with EB White's original, which you can get a sense of here.

nabisco obv. loves it though.

True! It's probably the best city in the world for small storefront theatre. Tonight I'm going to see an installment of Suzan Lori-Parks's 365 Days/365 Plays at an art gallery in the market district -- one play of which was directed by a friend of mine who sometimes posts on ILX. But I think Jenny is well-aware of this, too, so I'd relax. I think she was just quoting something pithy that she'd read.

they don't make frangos there any more.

totally otm. improv too. i weakly baited another thread with a "chicago has no culture comment", selzer countered with Second City. in time i've spent there i was staggered by trying to find a bar or record store in some out of the way neighborhood and seeing small improv or experimental theater groups holed up everywhere. the lower east side *used* to have groups like that, and never in such abundance.

also happening in New York. and other cities. but Chicago theatre does seem to be at least the equal of NY, unless theatre for you means 20 different versions of The Lion King and that

-- hstencil (hstenc!...) (webmail), January 13th, 2007 7:14 AM. (hstencil) (later) (link)

And there's no more Marshall Field's, either.

There is relatively no graffiti in Chicago. The city puts a tremendous amount of money into a "graffiti busters" program that seems to remove anything three or four days after it goes up. You can not buy spray paint inside the city limits unless you have a contractor's license. It is a felony to have spray paint in your possession after dark.

I also like his analogy of night out on coke vs. night in on weed. That's kinda perfect. It also reflects my feelings about the two drugs. Coke is fuuuunnnn, but for God's sake, who could do it all the time? Well, it takes a certain personality, I guess. I ain't it.

On the Chicago thread, we constantly talk about, well, food, but that's universal. But we talk about things that New Yorkers don't seem to talk about, like buying new sofas and having multiple cats.

perhaps those things are related

One of my friends who moved from Manhattan to Chicago cited her reason as being weary of the tension, which she attributed to "everyone being constantly terrified of slipping down a notch." There's something to that, I think. Everyone in New York is about to do the greatest thing that's ever been done.

new yorkers, at least a lot of us brooklyn dwellers, say that about their roofs.

This thread is lots of fun and all but one comment: Manhattan and Bklyn are the same city, even if Mnttn is "NYC" and Bklyn is "Chicago". If you live here, you get both! Not that the Lyn of Brook is a perfect substitute, but in terms of the pace of life, neighborhoodiness, etc. Anyway, the busy, big-city, coke-fueled parts of Manhattan are probably in the minority, you just don't see 'em unless you get off the tourist path.

No joke about real estate prices, though, I've seen photos of some ChILXors apartments (past and present) and they range from mind-boggling 3-bedrooms with plaster medallions and carven columns and formal dining rooms, to totally serviceable, clean, PRIVATE places that I STILL couldn't afford in NYC.

Yeah, I think gbx has said that before, that Chicago is like Brooklyn without a Manhattan.

yeah, ew, like you'd ever catch me in those neighborhoods. at least until they're profiled in the nyt sunday styles. and anyways, i thought you lived in oh-so-distant brooklyn heights.

who says this??!?!? it sounds so, so wrong.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i191/fluxion23/skyline_morning.jpg

I took that at about 6 am sometime in July, and framed it and gave to it to my gf for xmas.

Yes, I was quoting a pithy comment I heard on Wait, "Wait Don't Tell Me," and while I don't see as much live theater as I would like (probably only get to see two or three live performances a year, alas, but hope to increase that when school finally releases me from it's bloody claws), I am aware of Chicago's diverse and influential theater scene. But I invite you to be appalled by as many of my posts as possible - it makes me feel like I'm having a real impact on the ILX community.

WAIT'LL YOU SEE MY DECK

A++++++ would LOL again

Chicago is the farm team for so many great actors, it ain't even funny. Especially for comedy. EVERYBODY does their time in Chicago.

Was exploring a weird part of Queens today and I said "this is like Chicago but with ugly buildings and better ethnic food".

What the hell? You used to write as though Brooklyn were heaven on earth.

Well, sure. Some of them are awful; some of them star people you'll admire one day soon. It's fun to go to a Second City show and guess which ones.

er...

second city is horrid. so is every improv show i've ever seen. still, there is much good theater in chicago.

This is telling of the fact that you don't like the format as well as not liking the comedy. You don't like the whole idea.

So shut it.

Bad improv physically hurts, however.

xpost - and here we have a prime example of two different ways to communicate similar ideas.

...my buddy was on a "team" (ugh) that performed at IO. The lineup was from worst to best, and the difference between the first group and the last was unbelievable.

kenan, you're a sweetheart.

The south will rise again.

ok, wtf.

Do you remember typing that, Kenan? It was about a half hour ago.

and I still love it...but now I can tell you a million reasons why Queens is 1,000 times better then Brooklyn. It's not for everybody though. However, I'm about a 5 minute car ride from brooklyn, so it's not unreasonable to see them as usefull siblings. When one gets sick of the west village-ification of brooklyn (and long island city!) they can move to the wonderful gems of neighborhoods that make up the Sunnyside-Woodside-Jackson Heights axis.

When Nick and Sarah were in town for CMJ, they were playing in Greenpoint, and I said "hey Nick, doesn't this neighborhood kind of remind you of parts of Wicker Park?" -- you know, both Polish, similar buildings, etc. -- and he was like "no way."

Dude, between North and Ashland, there are like 20 furniture stores.

In my infliction
Entrepreneurial conditions
Take us to glory
I think about it now

Cannot conversations cull united nations?
If you got the patience, celebrate the ancients
Cannot all creation call it celebration?
Or united nation. Put it to your head.

Oh great white city
I've got the adequate committee
Where have your walls gone?
I think about it now

Chicago, in fashion, the soft drinks, expansion
Oh Columbia!
From Paris, incentive, like Cream of Wheat invented,
The Ferris Wheel!

Oh great intentions
Covenant with the imitation
Have you no conscience?
I think about it now

Oh God of Progress
Have you degraded or forgot us?
Where have your laws gone?
I think about it now

Ancient hieroglyphic or the South Pacific
Typically terrific, busy and prolific

Classical devotion, architect promotion
Lacking in emotion. Think about it now.

Chicago, the New Age, but what would Frank Lloyd Wright say?
Oh Columbia!
Amusement or treasure, these optimistic pleasures
Like the Ferris Wheel!

Cannot conversations cull united nations?
If you got the patience, celebrate the ancients

Columbia!

indeed -- kanye now lives in my town (right across the hudson from manhattan).

Second City is not improv, it's sketch that sometimes uses improv. A friend who is a veteran improv-er.

I meant to say a friend who is a veteran improv-er informed me of this.

i'm suspicious that it's ever going to happen for long island city, no matter what condo projects are in the works, unless they raze the whole area and build a charming community from scratch.

xp

see: Chicago's University Village .

!!!

some say they're tooooo fluffy, but not me. if you enjoy a nice fluffy one go there.

further bagel criteria:

Evrythings that dont skimp on the everything. I want that shit covered top and bottom.

xp

and thier everythings?

Also I don't think even Brooklyn quite as laid back as Chicago, because you always have a great deal of ambition spillover from Manhattan.

Shitty neighborhoods turn into unafordable shitty neighborhoods.

forget whatever that other person wrote. if you want the definitive experience, go to H+H Bagel. unfortunately you'd have to go to either the upper east or upper west side to find an actual store, but they do distribute product throughout the city.

if you do go to H&H, though, you have to go to the Upper West Side store (or their place out by the west side highway in the 40s). "H&H Bagel East" on the UES is not the same company, and sells a different product that does not compare.

-- jambalaya backgammon (goforgrad...), January 15th, 2007 11:41 PM. (grady) (later)

SKOKIE, people.

BTW, for you New Yorkers, I'm having my book launch party tomorrow. come, maybe buy a book while you're at it:

Thursday, January 18th
10pm - 4am
Open SVEDKA VODKA Bar: 10-11

DJs: James F!#$% Friedman, Jacques Renault, Speculator

The Sanctum @ Tribeca Grand

HI DERE.

i love living in chicago, it has an amazing music scene (for the specialized niche of a subset of a genre of a subgenre of a subgenre that nobody cares about in the first place), is easy to get around w/o a car (with the exception of the few years me & the ex owned one when she was working in lake county), and above all it's cheap. like so amazingly cheap that i don't want to leave. aside from that, for what i like to do, the two cities are pretty much a wash. when i was in brooklyn in november i did the exact same thing i did last week in chicago, went to a show, saw a lot of friends, got too drunk, made some mistakes, got home at sun up.

Uh, Portland. Although we encourage you to get a bike.

Biking in Chicago looks awesome because it is so flat and terrifying because the driving is so fucked up. Driving also seems fucked up. Parking seems largely impossible.

In New York, everything is impossible, but that's the only reason why anyone bothers to do anything.

Umm but parking-wise the only place I've ever gotten really annoyed was near Wrigley, since it's crowded and the stadium leads to complex parking laws and I never knew whether there was a game going on or not. (I still have this private rage over "not during baseball games" parking plans, like WTF, I have to know about baseball schedules to park now?) But apart from that whole Lakeside area where every block has resident permit stickers, there's usually something down one of the residential streets, and a couple circled blocks tends to find it.

Oh and in terms of Chicago driving, the only local weirdness I can think of is the special post-fire three-road intersection scheme, and I've never seen the street-level roads get very blocked up or slowed down -- going along nice broad ones like Western is usually pleasant. No major rage or frustration or jams that I've seen. Biking was usually fine for me, too -- surely shit compared to places like Portland, but easy trundling along, especially with all the residential streets to cut through. (The summer before I left I remember biking back and forth between Uptown and Wicker Park like three or four trips a day.)

biking here is a million times easier than boston, the drivers are better, there are few to no hills, and there are bike lanes on many major streets. and this has been discussed on the chicago thread once a long time ago but i'm still a big proponent of the bike trail along the lake NORTH OF BELMONT. anywhere between navy pier and belmont makes me want to shoot myself but north of belmont up to evanston is nice. one of my favorite days i ever had in the city was biking from oak park to monroe harbor then up to hollywood beach and back. about 40 miles round trip (not counting the side trip when we locked our bikes and ventured into lakeview for lunch and record shopping) but i didn't feel it until we got home.

my last two apartments have both been within staggering distance of the bottle (in my place on augusta you could hear the bands from my bathroom if the window was open) and it's not so bad. the western ave and chicago ave busses both run 24 hours. i love my neighborhood and i think one of the reasons the ukie village hasn't been over-run by yuppies and trust-funders is because of the relative lack of walking distance to a train (though it's only a 10 minute walk to either damen or division). but it's coming, my next apt will either be in humboldt park or south logan square/palmer square area.

We live three blocks from Wrigley and parking is impossible here unless you have a neighborhood sticker and are looking for a spot when everybody is at work. At night? Forget it. Dan, Nick, and Sarah and testify.

during the day. at night i used to pick jen up from depaul all the time and it was unusual i ever had to make a full trip around the block. likewise going to cal's (when i can bum a ride) has never been an issue.

My great Wrigley-area parking catch-all was always the Grace Cemetery. (Though that's partly responsible for my baseball/parking rage: I wound up leaving my car there and spending the night in the neighborhood once, and then when I woke up there were drunk people in Cubs gear everywhere and I knew my car would be long gone.)

People don't seem to walk much in Chicago, though. Things are perhaps just a little too far apart for that to be a habit for most people? Or the blocks are just too long? Or maybe more people walk than I realize, and jaymc's astonishment that my friend and I would walk 2 miles home on a nice night instead of getting a cab shouldn't be taken as the signal moment I have taken it to be.

I can't imagine biking in Boston (but then I don't remember ever seeing anyone do it -- it's been a few years since I've been there, though).

on what planet is a 2 mile walk on a nice night SHOCKING? i mean, provided you're not walking through danger zones or whatever. it's like 25 minutes! i bet you guys walk more than you even know

i walk everywhere. from my place it's a mile to the nearest grocery store then a mile back. it's a 1/4 mile to my closest bus stop (then another 1/8th to division where i can catch an express bus if there isn't one in sight), it's a half mile walk from the bus stop to my office. it's about a mile to subterranean, double door, wicker park, or the record stores in w.p. it's a mile to the western/milwaukee blue line stop and also to my best friends place so i wind up making that walk frequently.

i walk everywhere. i'll take a bus if one is around as it's quicker but if one isn't there i start walking.

on what planet is a 2 mile walk in single degree weather on icy sidewalks NOT MISERABLE?

(vs. NYC, where you can do you everyday stuff within a block radius, but then can walk 3/4 of the way across Manhattan or through 20 different neighborhoods just on a whim)

xpost -- I've walked that North Ave bit plenty of times, but let's please note that it's really not the most scenic stroll. I'm sure they've replaced the hookers with big-box retail* through that corridor since I've left, but it's still kinda empty and uninviting -- between that and winter, I'd take the bus every time.

(* = let's pretend the pun's intended)

next day was not fun.

But not more than I have to! Not really a sneakers kind of girl. I mind walking a little less now that I smoke, though; it gives me something to do with my hands.

xp where is cal's?

I've never lived in NY, so I don't know how this works in the long-term: does New York drink like this? Because we shore as hell do.

i used to walk a lot more when i lived with the little woman, walking by yourself just kind of sucks.

xpost- cal's isn't exactly the bar at the drake though.

...that's why we were walking. and because the tube was broek.

that sorta sucked.

you get to see the neighborhoods change in a way that you just cant experience on foot or by car or train.

Mostly around Barleycorn-ville, I'm guessing.

pretty much addison to chicago on a nice night, but yeah, especially around there.

driving up from the South Side = even better.

I really like the Murray's at 8th & 23rd, and then Russ & Daughters somewhere around LES has OK bagels but great lox.

I walk lots, often on purpose when I could take a bus or a train just as easily. Before I changed jobs, I would walk a couple miles throughout the day just getting to and from trains and running errands and doing stuff. My new job is about a mile away from school so I'll walk when it's nice out, but not in this weather. Blech.

-- horseshoe (rosalind51...), January 18th, 2007 8:59 PM.

Ha this is so true, when I had a girl I was hoping to get involved with come visit me once i had her getting off the highway at stony island so she could be ooh and awed by the skyline as she came to visit.

it was great success
http://www.martinirepublic.com/wp-content/images/borat.jpg

I would imagine in Portland a non car owner would *have* to walk 2 miles every once in a while. In Chicago, if you didn't have a car you would have no real reason to walk 2 miles unless you just felt like going for a (pretty darn long) stroll.

Most of my friends who grew up in Portland and still live here never learned how to drive!

I will take huge issue with this, but I guess it depends on your definition of "cool neighborhood". I love my neighborhood (which is almost and nearly yours, too). It's tree-lined, it's quiet (except for the train), I don't worry about burglary.

you would have no real reason to walk 2 miles unless you just felt like going for a (pretty darn long) stroll.

And when it's not 10 degrees and icy, I do! Two miles is a half-hour, 45 minutes. I've taken much longer walks than that. Especially with a camera. It's a very pretty city.

I confused you with the douchepaste who posted before you.

"(polish people aren't cool)"

Wow. Yeah. Fuck. You.

xp

The two-miles thing here is funny, cause I'm bad at judging distance. When I lived in Wicker Park, on a nice day, I'd walk from around North/Damen down to Division, get coffee, walk down to the Jewel on Ashland, walk up Milwaukee to Reckless, and then back home -- that triangle's gotta be at least two or three miles, but in context it just felt like a long errand-running stroll around the neighborhood.

\\

Also, biking in Chicago is completely not terrifying, though it is really annoying on places like State St. and Mich Ave. Or if you're a bike messenger, it's probably exciting, but not for me. Also, the driving is not ever really "crazy" here.

this is one of the most rediculous things i've read on ilx in a while and keep in mind there was that "i've never had sex thread" the other day. i pay insanely cheap rent. like so cheap it's bananas and while i'm not sure my definition of "cool" matches yours i would surely rather live in the ukrainian village (with numerous "uncool" ethnic poles mind you) than in portage park or whatever neighborhood you're in. for $685 you could find someplace decent in almost any 'hood north of the gold coast or west of the river. granted deals in places like wicker park are harder to come by but my former wicker park lady friend was paying less than $700 until her bldg. got sold.

My mother, aunt, and I took my grandmother to NY to see the Rockettes one Christmas. My grandmother, who is short and fat and kind of potato shaped and arthritic and doesn't move real fast or have any idea how to comport herself in a city, stopped in the middle of a crosswalk, laboriously bent down and then spent the last moments of walk light time trying to pick a nickel off the street with her little, stiff, begloved hands. Meanwhile, oncoming traffic got the green light and began making a justified ruckus because WTF was this old fat woman doing trying to pick up a NICKEL in the middle of the street and why were those three other women yelling and gesturing wildly at her and trying to entice her onto the opposite sidewalk by holding out dimes.

We spent the rest of the day in a movie theater and then the Peter Pan Bus came and we went back to Delaware.

Chicago ILx didn't bother, and I was sad.

I'm going back to Chicago soon, though.

next time!

I'm not really holding a grudge. Although if it meens boozes, then I can pretend to be.

Tim, you forgot Nashville ILX, you silly thing, and you don't even know yet that I may be joining you in a couple of months.

As for that other news, well, the emoticon has not yet been invented which could represent my surprise and delight.

-- nabisco

i think the fact that no one feels the need to defend nyc speaks volumes

awesome.

LOL

te amo!

At the time of the founding of the Diocese of Chicago on September 30, 1843, Bishop William Quarter led his faithful from the Cathedral of Saint Mary at the southwest corner of Madison and Wabash Streets. A few years later in 1851, an immense brick church called the Church of the Holy Name was being constructed on State Street between Huron and Superior streets. Its cornerstone was set in 1852. In October of 1871 however, both churches were destroyed as the Great Chicago Fire engulfed all of the city. Church of the Holy Name pastor John McMullen travelled the country to raise funds to rebuild the churches and to aid the homeless of Chicago. Meanwhile, Chicago's Catholics were forced to worship in what was called the shanty cathedral, a boarded-up burnt house on Cass Street. They worshiped there for over four years.

I should jump back in and say thanks to everyone who's been posting here, it's genuinely been very helpful. Although if I was going to start this thread today it would be TS: Chicago vs Cambridge, MA vs Princeton, NJ, and I don't really think I'd need to bother with that one.

Anyway, carry on...

boston sucks.

I guess Princeton comments are a bit off-subject, but I'm very happy to hear positive things about it! I've never been there, but have tended to be scared by what I've heard.

The BIG differences with Northwestern are that Evanston is (a) accessible by train, at least until late night*, and (b) more directly adjacent to north-side Stuff to Do. (Hyde Park feels a lot more distant and isolated, and unless you're really placid about epic bus-train commutes, cries out for car ownership.)

Toby, I went to Northwestern, and will heartily recommend it as a workspace. If you live anywhere along the train's red line (and I'd recommend Andersonville or Uptown for convenience), doing a work commute to Evanston is no different from going downtown. (Easier, probably, since you're headed against the flow.) The campus is beautiful, and downtown Evanston's been built up into some kind of high-rise/shopping/entertainment complex since I left. And if you don't plan on living there, the fact that the Evanston leg of the train shuts down for late nights won't be an issue. Live toward the north end of the city, and I think you'd be really happy with that setup.

Jaymc lives toward the north end of the city, and I know he used to work in Evanston, maybe still does -- maybe he'll weigh in?

(* = sometimes I think the shut-down of late-night purple line service was part of some kind of ploy to help spark the boom of construction and new business in downtown Evanston -- that was like 10,000 Northwestern students who suddenly didn't have the easy option of going into the city for the night!)

Evanston is cute and has a good movie theater. If I lived there, I'd probably spend a lot of time going to Chicago, though.

xpost - Well, there goes Nabisco being all OTM and stuff again. But I'll add that I lived in Andersonville very near Uptown and yes, those are also very good places to consider living although A-ville is probably more expensive than it was the last time N. looked into it.

evanston's really not that bad. commuting is bad, though

anyway evanston is really close to chicago. the drive along the lake from the north suburbs is pretty nice.

Uptown/edgewater/rogers park are great places to live.

Evanston's changed a lot. In addition to the places jenny mentioned, there's 2 dollar wings at dixie kitchen on (i think?) thursday nights, there's heckys barbecue, gyros at cross rhodes, breakfast at lucky platter, all-ages byob hookah bar that high school kids get busted at, etc.

Hahaha Jenny^3, are you referring to Evanston First Liquor ("EV1!"), by the post office? (For the beer, not the gynecology.)

Hecky's isn't a "change" for Evanston, though, right? Northwestern's had one of its four main email servers named after them since 1994, so I always thought of it as an institution!

P.S. my reference to purple line shut-down is totally dated to my getting a car circa 2001, so they may well have reinstated some late-night service.

I'm not sure if Metra does U-PASS, though -- so you might have to pay a couple bucks a ride.

When I worked in Evanston, I drove, but that's because I'm a lazy SOB and my workplace (across the street from Mustard's Last Stand) had a parking lot in the back. If my car was out of commission, though, CTA was usually no big deal. Sometimes I'd even take the Clark bus to Howard and then transfer to a bus destined for Old Orchard.

haha me too

sorry i didn't mean that the stuff i listed was a 'change,' i was observing change and then seperately listing good places to go.

haha. i was thinking the same thing.

fwiw, i'd prefer cambridge or princeton to chicago but then i dislike chicago a lot more than most people.

... this kind of attitude is kind of why i hate nyc

i mean, i know i'm posting from a 'far-flung location' or whatever but get one perspective new yorker transplants

It's like we don't need to argue about what 120 degrees feels like -- it's hot -- but we can differ forever on whether 65 is pleasant or nippy, whether you need a jacket or just a sweater.

P.P.S. Also there really is often NYC condescension involved in the lack of defensiveness -- e.g. when New Yorkers are elsewhere and everyone goes "hahaha you pay what for an apartment? what a moron!" there's some center-of-world confidence there that allows us to think "ha, these boring rubes just don't understand," and get mentally snobby instead of offended.

thats all i was saying but just take it from nabisco's temperature metaphor if yr having trouble

everything you need to know about chicago you can find out by watching Good Times.

actually, this is wrong.

This is kind of one reason why I don't think I'd like to live in NYC. I think I thrive best in places where I can make something of myself, have some sense that I'm participating in the community.

thirteen year old kid robbed a guy in the park saying he had a gun, pulled the realistic looking gun out when chased by the cops and (allegedly) pointed it at the cops when they caught him. i'm not feeling much regret for a kid who commits armed robbery, 13 or not. you may not be an adult but you're old enough to know right from wrong at 13.

there was dispute over this, actually - i thought that numerous bystanders had contradicted it

the only thing i really believe in is karma and that's it right there.

And then the cops shot him.

It's tragic regardles of whether the cops were acting out of a reasonable sense of immediate bodily harm.

I have to agree that the "NY needs no explaination/defense thing" vs. "HI WE'RE FROM CHICAGO AND WOULD LOVE YOU TO MOVE HERE LET US TELL YOU ABOUT IT AT GREAT DETAIL AND LENGTH" is pretty telling about the general culture of the two cities.

I don't know what the name of the beer store was, but they sold Rogue's Chocolate Stout which makes it aces in my book.

And finally, Metra does not accept U-Pass.

jenny, i know you're just throwing your two cents in but really? you wouldn't have known how to commit armed robbery? what particular skill does it take?

i forgot which point in this thread im responding to, but whatever

The venue was moved to Deja Vu, another venue in Chicago that Saturday. Anti-Racist Action began to gather at the venue, resulting in violence against fans of Death In June and the concert was canceled by the venue owners just before it was scheduled to begin.

nb: I have never lived in Hyde Park. I used to have a car and now do not. if you're going to be attending the U of C, it's possible to do so and not live there. I feel a little guilty about it, though.

yes, the eb is 1035 n. western ave. the western ave bus runs 24 hours. 2 blocks south is chicago ave, the chicago ave bus runs 24 hours. you can take the western bus north or south to the blue line which runs 24 hours. you can take the chicago bus to the red line which runs 24 hours. i'm assuming, since you're going to the bottle, that you won't be living on the wild wild west side.

i don't own a car and go to the bottle all the time but that has more to do with it being within staggering distance of my place. uk village is a decent place to live, still reasonably cheap (though getting more expensive every month) and within walking distance of a ton of bars/venues. cheaper than wicker park but if an extra 5 minute walk is worth the $300 more in rent you'll play for the same type of building maybe wp would be better for you.

On preview, basically what everyone else said.

The University of Chicago is in a small, pleasant neighborhood called Hyde Park, which turns out to be very far away from all the north-side stuff you'd ever be going to, and not particularly convenient via public transportation. So no, it's not close to "cool areas" -- it's surrounded by low-income neighborhoods that can't support much of anything at all -- and no, you can't take a bus to the Empty Bottle. If you were to live in Hyde Park and wanted to go out on the north side, you'd need a car (and even then, you might not always feel like the drive).

That said, the actual Hyde Park neighborhood is very pleasant and homey.

(My life in Chicago improved immeasurably when I got a car, and not just for commuting to Hyde Park. The city became four times as big, and life became infinitely more broad and casual. I mean, I know this is just the heart of oil-wasting car culture, but it's pretty sweet when trips that would once have seemed unreasonable -- like "wow, i could really go for some ice cream from that one place" or "hey, come downtown and pick it up from my place" -- suddenly become these happy ten-minute jaunts.)

I-GO!!!

If any New Yorkers would like to chime in, the area in NYC we'd be in would be the Upper East of Manhattan. The good thing about the NYC programs is that they pay for a good portion of your rent, although it would still be more expensive than Chicago's rents.

"New York's the greatest if you get someone to pay the rent." - LCD Soundsystem

you're never more than two blocks from a cta stop in chicago. how much more comprehensive are you talking?

bridgeport = backwards ballcaps and striped shirts.

CUMC then? I grew up around there so if you have specifics let me know here or over email.

if you can afford to live on the upper east side, why you still going to school?

presumably they're living in dorm housing, but is earning power the only reason for going to school?

i dunno. car ride or long walk have basically been the only transport options presented to me when i've been there. from just looking at a map, the 24hr subway system in nyc seems way more robust. by cta stops do you mean bus stops?

But yeah, the buses are plentiful, as are cabs.

b.f.f.

double xpost, dan is a known liar. chicago's full of them too.

xpost- four months? it will go from negative 10 to 40 above to 85 to old people keeling over in their apartments and birds spontaneously combusting in mid-air in the course of 3 days in april.

2 words: window unit.

Really, we only get a few days a year of unbearable cold, and a few days of unbearable heat, and a couple months each of "I wish the weather was different," which leaves 8 months of perfectly acceptable.

Yes, watching this happen is great sport. It's like when you feed a seagull Alka Seltzer.

Possibly a good way of coming at the NYC/Chi public transportation thing would be to say that New York can get you everywhere by train alone, whereas Chicago gets you many places by train, but only gets you everywhere by train + not-necessarily-reliable bus.

[Plus oh god if I were commuting to the U of C hospital from outside of Hyde Park, I would probably get like suicidally annoyed by either (a) winter walking from the Jeffrey Express Cottage Grove stop over to the hospital building, or (b) the always unpleasant over-the-highway wait for the 55 bus. Alternately, if I lived in Hyde Park and took public transportation to go out at night, I would so not enjoy either getting off the bus by Cottage Grove in the late hours (genuine safety issues) or waiting 45 minutes for the damned Garfield bus (probably safer, actually, but it sure as hell wouldn't feel that way, unless Batman worked at Checkers).]

with bad traffic/rush hour, more.

1. getting to Ukranian Village / Wicker Park / Bucktown (including Bottle) = 20-30 minutes each way

2. getting to Lakeview / Wrigleyville (including venues like the Metro, Vic, etc., and just a general going-out center of town) = 30-35 minutes each way (though with the potential for delays, because you'd probably take Lake Shore Drive)

3. getting to the north end of town (Andersonville / Uptown / Rogers Park), where hip stuff also goes on = 35-45

But keep in mind that of course a 30-minute drive through the city feels a lot different than a 30-minute drive between cities, and a half-hour is about how long you'd spend on a train even if you lived on the north side.

2009.

(The psychology of these things is interesting to me, actually: like if I were in the town where I lived in Michigan and you called and said "you gotta come out, we're at a bar in Grand Rapids," I'd think you were nuts. Whereas if someone called me at home now and said "you gotta come out, we're at a bar in Williamsburg," I might go, even though both trips are in the 50-minute area, and the drive would be more reliable. The gas expense is part of this, but I think it's more about whether you have to travel through non-city space or not.)

Conversely, if you're in a cab, you could be shocked by how much distance you really just covered. Trip to the convention center from my place in Edgewater: almost $50.

I've sometimes taken a cab from my place at Lawrence/Ashland to the Loop, and it's like $25.

(That's assuming all else is equal in terms of the residencies, and assuming your girlfriend's residency schedule won't mean she'd prefer someplace a little more cozy and easy-going when not slaving away.)

Hmmm.

(Haha part of me wants to add "if your relationship is in any way shaky and you'd like it not to be, then do not choose NYC," but I'm not sure that's true in the least.)

there are good 10-and-sub (or, 12-ish-and-sub) shows in NY, but count on most of what you want to see being 20 and up.

Shows at all price levels in NYC -- free, even. You can probably see more / more interesting unsigned-type bands in NYC these days than Chicago -- for like $10, sure. On the other hand, if you want to see anything remotely "big" at the moment, not so easy. Drinks aren't crazy expensive if you're comparing them to Chicago -- like maybe one dollar more, on average. Assuming you don't have a think about going to really nice bars. Or lounges or clubs. If it's one of those places where a cocktail costs $15, you'll know before you walk in. And there are plenty of bars where you can drink Rheingold for two or three bucks a bottle and belch all night.

i designer i used to work with lived in south of the loop, and apparently his apartment was large, nice-ish, and totally sterile. it was one of those new jobbies in a location with nothing to offer w/r/t cozy restaurants/bars/cafes in walking distance.

but i'm just spitballing here, people.

(fwiw, i will be posting to this thread about a year from now if i'm fortunate enough to get to choose between NYC and Chicago for med school) also: what kind of residency is she doing? i'm curious.

uh, white castle

i hate white castle.

yeah there's actually a fair amount of good food around there, but i donno, i'm a little suspicious about how up to code most of those places are.

this is going to drive me bonkers

f yeah

Hm.

Call me.

that's crazy!

i was at a place called happy ending, and i was running low on cash so i ordered a miller high life.. but also i really like high life.. and it was SIX dollars! i was like, huh?????

McCormick?

Airport fares are fixed, so you can run up a lot more travelling less distance in town.

woah, deej, don't go too far...

am i allowed to ask if nabisco was a medildo? pweety pweaze?

here are some indicative show prices

http://www.boweryballroom.com/calendar/calendar_200702.html
http://www.ticketweb.com/user/?region=nyc&query=schedule&venue=southpaw1
http://www.bowerypresents.com/
http://cake-shop.com/calendar/calendar.php?year=2007&month=01
http://www.mercuryloungenyc.com/calendar/calendar_200702.html
http://www.unionhallny.com/events/index.php

And yeah, gabbneb, Dave Matthew Band shows do generally cost more than $20.

when i lived in chicago, i dated a guy that lived down there, and he always insisted on picking me up in his car at my place in lakeview, rather than me taking transport down there to hang out-- he claimed it 'wasn't safe'. i'm not sure whether that's true, he is terribly old fashioned (and/or didn't know my thuggish nature), or was actually married. hmm.

So but umm yeah, it's not exactly freaky no-man's land, or anything, but I wouldn't exactly make a point of wandering around the edges of Hyde Park during the late hours, or anything. As for the bus on 55th, desolate and exposed as it feels, I don't think the highway overpass wait is too dangerous, and the walk from 55th down into cozy campus is very short (especially now that they've put that big busy bar/restaurant thing by the fitness center).

Stingy, if your girlfriend is leaning toward U of C and you wind up living in the south loop, you'll probably have a pretty full Chicago experience, so I can heartily recommend the city.

I favor the Metra, personally. It's fast and generally mostly empty on account of going against the flow of most commuters.

(P.S. you have no idea how much I freaked out earlier this year when I opened up the Times and AS / 4n!ta S4m3n was staring back out at me.)

(P.P.S. your status as an ILXor may make you one of like two people who will know what I mean if I point out the following: EG / 3ll3n G!bs0n = Lorelei Gilmore.)

I never posted to say that we ended up deciding to come to chicago for a year and then move to Boston.