The Madness of Modern Parents

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I don't even know how I ended up watching this, it was by mistake, it's possibly the most repulsive thing I've ever seen - anyone else see it?

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 12:55 (nineteen years ago)

the competition among parents for school places (for their kids not them) is a ticking timebomb innit

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:07 (nineteen years ago)

what kind of mad things were they doing?

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:09 (nineteen years ago)

Not mad, just vile. Horrible people. I hate the world.

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:10 (nineteen years ago)

turning signs saying 'Open Day' around so that other parents (their rivals) would not find the school (or maybe this was just a suggestion).

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:10 (nineteen years ago)

your witness:
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/3/33/250px-Dickdastardly.jpg

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:11 (nineteen years ago)

Imagine, if you can, a bunch of smug, vile wankers sitting around telling us the various ruses they use to make sure their repulsive brats don't have to go to school with poor/black people + how they will happily fuck over any and everyone who stands in their way - with a snide Grumpy Old Men-style commentary on top...

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:12 (nineteen years ago)

... mind you, I kept thinking of that Blue Jam sketch, so that cheered me up. "More Porn Now! More Porn Now!"

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:15 (nineteen years ago)

wait, why were they smug?

make sure their repulsive brats don't have to go to school with poor/black people

makes sense as they don't want to get their phone nicked/be beaten up for being 'too posh' [/ad glib]

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:17 (nineteen years ago)

We caught a few minutes of it but I had to force a channel change after said few minutes - absolutely agreed with Tom D. - VILE!

Imagine! A grown woman camping in a Wendy house!

― Bhumibol Adulyadej (Lucretia My Reflection), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:18 (nineteen years ago)

it sounds like it wasn't very broad in it's representation of modern parents.

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:19 (nineteen years ago)

I only saw the bit where most parents admitted doing the school projects themselves which didn't strike me as that odd (or, I mean, something that happens NOW). Not that I would stoop so low and admit/do this but then I don't really live in a country which has such fierce competition (to get into a good school). Is it as bad as it seems? Is there such fierce competition? I mean, I went to a strict school (that prepped for university) until I was 12 (haha, yep, I was a lazy git and didn't join the rat race) but compared to what I saw on that program that was nothing!

Not as repulsive as the program which had anti-kids people on it. Christ, I'm not against people who don't want kids, but some were just so... dumb and arrogant. "The parents deliberately run into me with their XL buggies! I can't shop on saturday!"

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:22 (nineteen years ago)

ppl be parading freaks on telly

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:24 (nineteen years ago)

xpost

otm - it really pissed me off that somehow it was about anybody except this rather bizarre bunch. Where's my programme!

― Edward Trifle (Ned Trifle IV), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:25 (nineteen years ago)

"The parents deliberately run into me with their XL buggies! I can't shop on saturday!"

haha i am one of these people

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:25 (nineteen years ago)

get out of mothercare

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:26 (nineteen years ago)

xpost: Hah! Don't worry about it, it pisses me off as well. :-)

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:27 (nineteen years ago)

I just wish people would be more *careful* with their buggies, rather than using them as battering rams... honestly, that doesn't seem very good for the kiddies *in* them.

Obviously, I didn't see the program, but some parents do seem to lose perspective when it comes to their progeny - but it seems to be people who had problems with entitlement issues to start with, and the breeding exarcerbates tendencies they already had, rather than parenthood inherently befuddling your brain and morality.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:30 (nineteen years ago)

**Is it as bad as it seems? Is there such fierce competition?**

In London, yes.

Didn't see the program btw, but probably don't need to.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:30 (nineteen years ago)

"Humanity venal, predatory and self-interested" shock horror youth cult probe.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:31 (nineteen years ago)

I don't even know what channel it was on.

On TV last night I saw more legalised begging for leftovers from the capitalist bouillabase then another identikit sub-CSI Brit police procedural programme about missing people and kidnapping except they obviously thought they were making Magnolia 2.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:33 (nineteen years ago)

it seems to be people who had problems with entitlement issues to start with, and the breeding exarcerbates tendencies they already had, rather than parenthood inherently befuddling your brain and morality.

-- The Whistling Bus (masonicboo...), January 24th, 2007.

i don't really know what this means. people with 'entitlement issues' = 'people who can't afford private school'?

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:36 (nineteen years ago)

I think buggies are getting smaller - there seems to be a backlash vs. those land rover three wheeler thingys...I have done no research though.

― Edward Trifle (Ned Trifle IV), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:37 (nineteen years ago)

WTF? How did you get from Point A to Point Z there? x-post

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:38 (nineteen years ago)

oh shit now i get it! sorry: i had thought the 'breeding' was a noun, as in the breeding of the parents, rather than the (maybe this too is a noun... um) breeding of the younglings.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:39 (nineteen years ago)

please do not say younglings

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:40 (nineteen years ago)

...and you say *I* have Class issues.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:41 (nineteen years ago)

Beatrice and Sidney Webb to thread.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:41 (nineteen years ago)

I have little sympathy for v.pushy parents, but in mitigation the process of trying to get your children into a decent secondary school is, in some boroughs, so badly administrated and idiotic that some people do end up being driven nuts.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:41 (nineteen years ago)

My mum and dad wanted me to go to Millfield! But Lanarkshire County Council were having none of it.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:43 (nineteen years ago)

My mum and dad wanted me to go to Cambridge but...erm...I was too thick.

― Edward Trifle (Ned Trifle IV), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

my primary school teachers told my 'rents to cart me off to a private school.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:48 (nineteen years ago)

I got carted off to experimental schools... whatever happened to that idea? That if you were disgusted with the state of state schools, you could start your own. Or did that produce too many mentalists like me, and was scrapped as a bad idea (besides, who has the time)?

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:49 (nineteen years ago)

I find the whole London school competition thing massively depressing - I don't even want to think about it.

When I was a kid you went to your local comprehensive (or local Catholic comp in my case) and that was that. There you'd find, one would hope, a good racial and socioeconomic mix (though mine, being where it was and what it was, never had the former). Some kids went on to University (a handful to Oxbridge colleges), lots passed O-levels and CSEs, a few got vocational qualifications, a handful lit fires in the bike sheds, threw acid at teachers and ended up...er, running their own haulage business and living in a bigger house than me. But never mind.

Now, we have "choice", which means that most schools in Lewisham and Brixton no longer have that mix - all the middle-class white kids go to school in Orpington or wherever. It should be a national scandal but it doesn't seem to be.

I want Ava to have the rough'n'tumble (but not too rough - she's only little) Comp experience with kids from every background you find in SE London. If she's as smart as we like to imagine she is, she'll do OK. But do such schools exist any more?

(Oh, and I'm incredibly careful with my Mutsy Duo Seat buggy - to the extent that I do farcical eight-point turns down alleys so as not to get in anyone's way. I'm probably not aggressive enough...)

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:53 (nineteen years ago)

Anyway, wasn't there that study last week that British women are not ~~breeding~~ replicating the country fast enough - i.e. the average family is only 1.66 younglings now so the country won't even replicate itself at this rate?

x-post

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:53 (nineteen years ago)

Anyway, wasn't there that study last week that British women are not breeding replicating the country fast enough - i.e. the average family is only 1.66 younglings now so the country won't even replicate itself at this rate?
x-post

-- The Whistling Bus (masonicboo...), January 24th, 2007.

oh that's been true for a while. hence 'polish muslims will rule us all' type mail articles.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:55 (nineteen years ago)

Not as repulsive as the program which had anti-kids people on it.

Oh yeah, I remember that one, that was horrible and I'm pretty much an anti-kids person myself

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:56 (nineteen years ago)

No, this was in the Guardian, so it wasn't all "Polish muslims will rule us all" - it was all "Labour should be more fair to families and give us tax breaks (especially if we are green)."

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:57 (nineteen years ago)

Ah yes, Steiner schools. Or erm I forget that other one. Frenet? They are quite popular around here. There's one in Ghent that is so popular that people come the evening before the enrollment day and sleep in front of the door! I think. I looked into it but I can't be arsed to send Ophelia to a school that I need to travel about half an hour (at the very least). I'm half-joking. I don't know about these schools: it seems to be great for some kids (who are independent enough to work on their own) but what if your kid's not? I'm rambling.

I love you, Marcello! :-)

If Ophelia's doesn't inherit my dumbness, but THom's brain, she'll do fine without my help. :-) If she's pretty clever then I'll probably send her to that prep school. It seems to be massively better in the "creating snobby kids" department. When I went to said school it was so depressing: I remember my friend being ridiculed because her parents were working class (mom cleaning lady). :-( But they prepped for your university. If you managed to survive, you were bound for university.

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:57 (nineteen years ago)

Loads of people I know and am friends with went to posh private schools, some of which even catered to Special Gifted Children. Where are those people now? Working in the same offices as everyone else. It's stupid to freak out so much about schools, unless your local school really is run by a cartoon wolf or something, or you are absolutely determined that your child is going to be prime minister.

What Michael J said.

I don't mind buggies, and will happily help people on and off trains and buses with them, even though I'm not mad about kids and don't have any. Chirp chirp.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:57 (nineteen years ago)

...completely disregarding the fact that every study on the "baby gap" between how many younglings women would have "liked to have had" and "actually had" is not down to them having careers and stuff, but down to the lack of meeting suitable partners.

But I suppose "more tax breaks for working mothers" is more easily legislatable than the somewhat B.Jones-ish "outlaw fuckwittage".

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:59 (nineteen years ago)

I find this so sad, she'sonly one years old and my husband and I have already started talking about school!

We have a Bugaboo which is quite small and I rarely if ever bump into people unless they are asking for it. haha I'm kidding.
I'm howvever going to buy a small one cause I'm going to Tokyo and need sth small for those damb staircases (?) in the metro). Any tips on what to buy?

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 13:59 (nineteen years ago)

school choice sounds like a recipe for disaster. as with hospitals tbh i don't even undertand the theory behind it.

kate -- shrinking population is a good thing though!

in all senses except uh-oh who gonna pay (public sector) pensions.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:00 (nineteen years ago)

don't worry about pension, what with global warming, we'll all be flooded by the time we're 60.

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:02 (nineteen years ago)

We have a huge black tank of a thing. It's great outdoors and surprisingly graceful - no bumping incidents so far even in busy places w/lots of toddlers. As soon as it gets through our front door though it's a disaster waiting to happen - no more paintwork at wheel level, soz landlord.

Don't want to even think about the school thing.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:02 (nineteen years ago)

If we're going to get into child-hating (and I don't hate children per se, I'm just freaked out by them, and rather scared of them) and baby buggies - what I hate most of all are the women who stand at the bottom of flights of stairs with their buggy and GLARE AT YOU if you don't stop and help them.

Like, dude, you chose to breed, I didn't. I don't glare at random strangers if they don't help me carry my guitar amp up stairs.

But yes, I have a lot of issues about this. I inherently project smugness onto any random parent I see - my mum and I were people watching in the Rookery and this woman with a buggy went by and I thought "SMUG SMUG SMUG AS FUCK!" and she thought "She looks so TRAPPED and DESPERATE" so it's all about projection, isn't it?

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:02 (nineteen years ago)

tbh i don't even undertand the theory behind it

Middle class parents don't have to send their kids to the same school as poor/black people... pay attention there. They get good jobs, the scum work in McDonalds, do you see?

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:03 (nineteen years ago)

rarely if ever bump into people unless they are asking for it. haha I'm kidding.

Some people are asking for it, though. I mean, a person pushing a buggy =two people (at least), one of whom can't ask you to get out of the way on their own behalf. So, you know, move. On the other hand, sometimes I feel like Kate.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:05 (nineteen years ago)

things like this make me profoundly thankful that i'll never have to deal with bringing up children (apart from possibly from a distance as cool godfather figure who the kids run away to when they're pissed off with their parents, and who i will tell all sorts of stories about their parents' drug-addled youth)

i don't like kids but they only really irritate me when they start screaming (in public) and will not stop - i usually recognise that this is my problem unless i see the parents ignoring or worse encouraging the brat, at which stage i start thinking about homicide.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:05 (nineteen years ago)

I always feel guilty when I don't help a woman with a buggy on to a bus - but sometimes they don't seem to want your help

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:06 (nineteen years ago)

i feel for all parents here! i always think parents should trust more in their ability to create a home atmosphere where learning, education, culture &c are emphasised, in which case the child will pretty much thrive whatever school system its in (given normal intelligence), but i don't know if i'd feel quite so confident if i had to create this atmosphere myself.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:07 (nineteen years ago)

IT'S

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:07 (nineteen years ago)

I mean, a person pushing a buggy =two people (at least), one of whom can't ask you to get out of the way on their own behalf. So, you know, move.

No, sorry, having a buggie is not an automatic "get to the head of the queue free!" card. People with buggies can say "excuse me" like everyone else, if there is a genuine blockage, or else wait their turn.

But this is about the rudeness of certain mothers, not a blanket put-down of all breeders.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:08 (nineteen years ago)

Oh god, there's this couple who bring their kids on the train at the same time as me sometimes, and the little boy is just HORRIBLE. If they give them two packets of sweets he will eat all his and then just snatch his little sister's from her, and then she starts to cry and act up and then the parents tell her she has to share, and I just want to fucking kick crap out of the whole lot of them. It has reached a point where I will move carriages if they get on, even if it means I have to stand.

Sorry, bit of a specific rant there.

No, sorry, having a buggie is not an automatic "get to the head of the queue free!" card.

Er, I didn't say anything about queues. I just meant on the path, or in general. Of course I don't think people should jump queues.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

Middle class parents don't have to send their kids to the same school as poor/black people... pay attention there. They get good jobs, the scum work in McDonalds, do you see?

-- Tom D. (tom_donnell...), January 24th, 2007.

i guess that figures -- but with hospitals i really don't see it.

xpost

the child will pretty much thrive whatever school system its in (given normal intelligence)

yeah i don't think parents can be so uh dispassionate about it. 'pretty much thrive'!

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

...that said, a lot of my bitterness is down to never having had children of mine own. If I had had children, you can bet I'd be shoving to the front of the train carriage shouting "GET OUT OF THE WAY, FUTURE PRIME MINISTER COMING THROUGH!!!" or something.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:09 (nineteen years ago)

Heh heh

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:10 (nineteen years ago)

...or paying my Butler to do it.

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:10 (nineteen years ago)

i guess that figures -- but with hospitals i really don't see it.

Oh that's just about privatising the NHS

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:11 (nineteen years ago)

Middle class parents don't have to send their kids to the same school as poor/black people... pay attention there. They get good jobs, the scum work in McDonalds, do you see?

But who (if anyone) are you blaming here Tom?

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:12 (nineteen years ago)

My sympathy for mums with buggies trying to put up with arseholes growling at them when they go to use the dedicated space on a bus = endless.

I have a BIG problem with women who use EMPTY buggies as a ramming rod down busy streets/supermarkets. What's up with that??

― marianna lcl (marianna lcl), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:12 (nineteen years ago)

I always feel guilty when I don't help a woman with a buggy on to a bus - but sometimes they don't seem to want your help

Cause we've done it a million times and we can do it ourselves. :-) I don't want to be a bother.

Rofl.

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:12 (nineteen years ago)

But who (if anyone) are you blaming here Tom?

The middle classes of course!

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:13 (nineteen years ago)

I have a BIG problem with women who use EMPTY buggies as a ramming rod down busy streets/supermarkets. What's up with that??

what about those that put their frigging lapdogs in buggies?

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:13 (nineteen years ago)

Eh? Who does that??!?

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:14 (nineteen years ago)

Oh man, ha ha, I read that as "those that put their frigging LAPTOPS in buggies" LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:14 (nineteen years ago)

BIG problem with women who use EMPTY buggies as a ramming rod down busy streets/supermarkets.

And those are the very people who will say "I have a BUGGY, you heartless bitch!" and then sweep by you before you can answer "but you have a frozen turkey in it!" and everyone will think you are hateful. And that woman's kids will grow up to be like her and yours will grow up to be like you, and hers are the ones who will get on telly.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:15 (nineteen years ago)

I've seen that too, Nat! World be crazy.

― marianna lcl (marianna lcl), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:15 (nineteen years ago)

what about those that put their frigging lapdogs in buggies?

can't hate on these, this is what paris would do if she didn't have a designer handbag to put her dog in

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:17 (nineteen years ago)

Lex, Paris doesn't push.

― marianna lcl (marianna lcl), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:18 (nineteen years ago)

indeed. and i really can't picture her with a buggy or a pram. ok carry on hating on these women!

yeah i don't think parents can be so uh dispassionate about it. 'pretty much thrive'!

"turn out ok" then!

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:18 (nineteen years ago)

oh even better!

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:23 (nineteen years ago)

I agree in principle with Lex's original statement. "Pretty much thrive" is ambiguous, I'm taking it as not in it's 'competititve' element.

We all go off and do all sorts of things together, Sites of historic interest, WOMAD/Reading Rock festivals, Legoland, Busted gig, and they're off to see "The King and I" tonight. This doesn't so much reflect in their progress in their school work directly, but it does create a 'thirst for knowledge' that keeps them interested in what they're learning.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:30 (nineteen years ago)

with, say, tuition fees, i felt hard-done-by being in the first year to pay 'em, but as time goes on i think of myself as a lucky one, with it getting shittier for younger people (paying even bigger fees, having annual exams at school, etc) all the time.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:32 (nineteen years ago)

my not having had to pay fees thus owing less is offset by not being able to buy a house with my own (sometimes even hard-earned) cash ever

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:42 (nineteen years ago)

my having had to pay fees thus owing more is... also offset by not being able to buy a house with my own (sometimes even hard-earned) cash ever.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:46 (nineteen years ago)

you mean compounded

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:49 (nineteen years ago)

i always get them confused.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:49 (nineteen years ago)

lol 'hard-earned' also!

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:50 (nineteen years ago)

What's the big deal about buying a house anyway?

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:51 (nineteen years ago)

If you can't distinguish "offset" and "compounded" you probably shouldn't be attempting anything as technically mathematical as getting a mortgage anyway!

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:53 (nineteen years ago)

it increases in value so that you can retire relatively comfortably, or buy a bigger house, or... it just makes money ok?, is the theory.

xpost

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:53 (nineteen years ago)

Oh it's all about making money, OK

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:54 (nineteen years ago)

duh welcome to capitalism

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:56 (nineteen years ago)

You're welcome to it, include me out

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:56 (nineteen years ago)

I like the sound of the Grout-spawn field trips! But then I think Mark and I have been on the same side of parenting/bullying threads before. So, unsprisingly, I second his comment that even though "normal" school might "suffice" for turning out "pretty much okay" adults, if I had ANY useful resources as a parent I'd probably want better than that. The question is: does better mean chomping at the doors at opening day or screwing over other families to get ahead? I srsly doubt that any of us think so.

― Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:57 (nineteen years ago)

no money mo problems

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:57 (nineteen years ago)

The question is: does better mean chomping at the doors at opening day or screwing over other families to get ahead? I srsly doubt that any of us think so

Eh?

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 14:58 (nineteen years ago)

i wouldn't want to buy a house designed by someone else anyway, i've realised. i'm gonna end up in a giant igloo in the sky.

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:03 (nineteen years ago)

In reference to the behavior of people on the show, Tom -- trish said people she knew in gifted programs are working in the same offices as everyone else, so why bother? And Mark said, the field trips & special efforts might not be directly reflected in grades but are part of the building/growing person they become. But obviously, as motivated as the Grouts are as parents, their idea of going the extra mile is totes different from the show parents'.

There, is that enough explanation? :)

― Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:07 (nineteen years ago)

The whole "your child is gifted" thing is too tempting to turn down. Someone actually confirms your child as special, of course you're going to go take them to the 'gifted child' school of advanced spelling etc.

I say this too often (IRL), but I'll say it here: It's not how well they can read, it's how well they can express their understanding about the world and how it works. That's what amazes and astounds me often enough to make me know they're 'thriving'.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:11 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know anything about this but, according to Private Eye, getting your child diagnosed as dyslexic is a current ruse among Guardian journalists not wanting to admit they just want to send their kids to private schools

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:14 (nineteen years ago)

Simply (speaking for London from direct experience) you have the following choices (not in any special order):

1) Private (expensive, obv)
2) In some boroughs Faith schools (e.g Roman Catholic) These are always over-subscribed.
3) State Grammar School (not many left) - pass the exam with high enough marks and you're in. Typically 10-15 applicants chasing every place.
4) Comprehensives - entry criteria usually distance from school or somesuch. You can apply to comps in your own borough or in adjacent boroughs. Some comps have additional entry criteria such as faith. Some are single-sex. Some have sixth-forms, some don't. In my borough half of the comps are massively oversubscribed. These are the ones with high exam results, few discipline problems, attract the best teachers and have low truancy. The other half are massively undersubscribed, get relatively poor exam results etc etc.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:14 (nineteen years ago)

getting your child diagnosed as dyslexic

Aspergers shirley

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:16 (nineteen years ago)

... so the obvious answer is to improve the undersubscribed schools

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:16 (nineteen years ago)

easier said than done

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:17 (nineteen years ago)

(not to imply you are wrong of course)

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:18 (nineteen years ago)

Attempting would be a start

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:18 (nineteen years ago)

Well they are attempting, I think.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:21 (nineteen years ago)

the start is the hardest part

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:21 (nineteen years ago)

So middle class parents are attempting to improve their local schools are they? That's good.

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:22 (nineteen years ago)

are you saying middle class parents could improve their local schools by sending their kids to them (regardless of the school's rep)?

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:23 (nineteen years ago)

Yes

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:24 (nineteen years ago)

surely 'cabinet ministers'

xpost

lol that would involve ppl giving 1x fuck

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:25 (nineteen years ago)

Well, yes some middle-class parents are trying to improve their local schools, Tom.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:25 (nineteen years ago)

I'm glad to hear it, let's have some TV programmes about them for a change

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:27 (nineteen years ago)

Tom - some working class parents are also trying to improve their local schools.

It's sad that TV programmes are your only source of information.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:30 (nineteen years ago)

What can I say, I don't know many middle class parents!

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:31 (nineteen years ago)

Tom - some working class parents are also trying to improve their local schools.

Yes, but they haven't got any choice but to, have they?

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:32 (nineteen years ago)

i think it somewhat unlikely that *all* middle-class parents are 1) evil and 2) successful in getting their kids into the best schools and that *all* working-class parents are doing their best to improve schools because they have no other options, but hey.

― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:34 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't notice the word "all" being used

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:35 (nineteen years ago)

~~No, working class parents choose the school by the proximity to the chip shop~~

thought better of it.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:36 (nineteen years ago)

No but it was implicit that you think the majority of working class kids go to crap schools.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think that is implicit. It's more likely they will, of course. I don't think there are as many crap schools as we're led to believe anyway.

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:40 (nineteen years ago)

I don't even know if the school I went to was crap! Probably!

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 15:41 (nineteen years ago)

what were your school dinners like?

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:01 (nineteen years ago)

I went once and then stopped going. Blood sausages? BARF!

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:02 (nineteen years ago)

I never had any school dinners. I went home for lunch.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:03 (nineteen years ago)

what were your school dinners like?

Nauseating

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:05 (nineteen years ago)

xpost me too! :-)

― Nathalie (stevie nixed), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:10 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not sure why people took issue with the 'pretty much thrive' comment. It seems a good way to me to think about raising your kids. It seems to be that is what parents should hope for, rather than placing huge expectations on kids as to which of their parents' goals they have to live up to. I think having a relatively happy, well adjusted kid to be a greater goal than having a valedictorian, or some other arbitrary indicator.

― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

Agree.

I have no specific goals *for* the kids. Alice wants to be a pop star. Amber wants to be a model. They are 6 and 8 respectively. If they still do when they're 16 and 18, that's their goal. If not, they can still do whatever they feel like doing.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:55 (nineteen years ago)

I wish I'd had a dad like you Grouty................... pass the sick bag, Alice (Grout)

― Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:56 (nineteen years ago)

just don't let them on big brother

― vita susicivus (blueski), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

Can you please go back in time, and explain this idea to my parents?

― The Whistling Bus (kate), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

If I hadn't been crap at Technical Drawing I would have won the John Junor Prize for Dux of Second Year at school!

I don't recall the late, unlamented "may the parents of Dunblane rot in hell" Junor ever turning up to award the prize, however.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

Yeeahh, (xpostish) but then it was all different then. The 'making the best for yourself' was all predefined! Be a doctor, lawyer or a civil engineer, indeed. I saw something written by Rose out of Strawberry Switchblade at the time, where she'd said most of her class wanted to grow up and become carpenters, shop girls, etc and she was the only one who wanted to be a 'star'.. I can't help thinking the ratio has reversed thesedays.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 16:59 (nineteen years ago)

Mary, I think it's just the casual phrasing of the "pretty much" part that's hanging people up (me included). Thrive is a strongly positive word but the "pretty much" blunts it and could be misconstrued as "do okay" or "get along okay"...which is kind of MEH and careless. Whether yr focus is on kids being strong, well-adjusted adults or valedictorians and doctors, merely "okay" is probably not anyone's dream.

― Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:00 (nineteen years ago)

just don't let them on big brother
-- vita susicivus (n...) (webmail), Today 4:57 PM. (later) (link)

1) Oh they would love to. Actually,Alice at the moment has some of Nikki's mannerisms. Except one time I called her "nikki" and she sort of in small writing said "don't call me that.."
2) I'm so tempted to teach them Russell's one phrase "pull down my trousers and pants" for no other reason than to SCARE THE OTHER KIDS PARENTS!!! (obv I'm not actually going to do this)

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

merely "okay" is probably not anyone's dream

It's mine. Pretty much.

― Sir Tehrance HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:10 (nineteen years ago)

I just say to mine - do things you enjoy. I don't want to push them in any particular direction. My eldest is now choosing GCSE options for next year. He's dropping all the 'useful' stuff like Computing and Design and going for more fun stuff like Spanish and Art History, which he enjoys.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:11 (nineteen years ago)

If Ophelia's doesn't inherit my dumbness, but THom's brain, she'll do fine without my help. :-)

God Forbid she should inherit the dumb genes of the person who taught herself flawless English from WATCHING TV.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:17 (nineteen years ago)

I think it's just the casual phrasing of the "pretty much" part that's hanging people up (me included). Thrive is a strongly positive word but the "pretty much" blunts it and could be misconstrued as "do okay" or "get along okay"...which is kind of MEH and careless. Whether yr focus is on kids being strong, well-adjusted adults or valedictorians and doctors, merely "okay" is probably not anyone's dream.
-- Laurel (sininspac...), Today. (later)

Not being a parent myself so probably in no way qualified to comment on this but given the vast number of people who, for whatever reasons, are not thriving in any way, I would think that turning out a child who in life "pretty much" thrives is something fairly good to aim for. I am a fairly morose bugger though.

I mean you want them to be deliriously happy for the rest of their lives, but that's not going to happen, is it?

― Stone Monkey (Stone Monkey), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:20 (nineteen years ago)

I have the solution to the aggressive buggy problem—anyone who doesn't have a baby buggy, whether with baby or lapdog or turkey—should carry a GIGANTIC UMBRELLA!!!!

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:25 (nineteen years ago)

NO! I hate those fuckers. Seriously, people who carry giant golf umbrellas around the city deserved to be PUSHED into a TROUGH.

You heard me.

― accentmonkey (accentmonkey), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

It's not about happiness of the passing sort, though, is it? It's about some more lasting well-being and way of engagement with the world, the exact conditions of which we could argue about all day and not prove anything. And I, personally, want more of that for myself, my friends, my (possible future) children than I see in a lot of people, so I guess I'm arguing from a position of thinking that "average" isn't good enough. (But to be very VERY CLEAR, I'm not thinking of salaries or public successes or professional degrees or bragging rights etc etc when I take this position.)

― Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:32 (nineteen years ago)

Also, good lord, ILX is made up of a bunch of people who obv have cultivated certain verbal/discourse/reasoning skills and do tend, on the whole, to be pretty engaged w/ the big-picture world (even us seppos), more so than almost anyone I grew up with and a lot of people I can think of even now...so YMMV.

― Laurel (Laurel), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:35 (nineteen years ago)

PUSHED into a TROUGH.

I just laughed so loud that I upset my deaf dog.

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:56 (nineteen years ago)

"pretty much thrive" = because that's all a parent can legitimately hope to do for their child, to have the basic ability to take what the world throws at them and potentially make something great about it - and if they turn into a world-beater or even someone of above average skills in their field that will have been what they made of those fundamentals, but it's not something a parent is totally in charge of

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 17:57 (nineteen years ago)

meanwhile in new york, the nursery school limo wars.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 18:15 (nineteen years ago)

The Dr C and Grout approaches are so otm. Thinking something is fun is step 1 to making it useful to oneself, and being exposed to lots of different things (outside just a school setting) is step 1 to finding something one thinks is fun.

― The Vintner's Lipogram (OleM), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 18:21 (nineteen years ago)

In my borough half of the comps are massively oversubscribed. These are the ones with high exam results, few discipline problems, attract the best teachers and have low truancy

No no no. Who are the best teachers - the ones that get 30 A-star grades out of a class who are all expected and capable of getting that grade - or the ones that can get 3 A's out of a class of 30 that are all expected to get E's and F's?

Yes, there are plenty of excellent teachers in the "best" schools, but there are also plenty who prefer the job satisfaction of teaching in more challenging schools.

― Si.C@rter (SiC@rter), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 22:38 (nineteen years ago)

I saw something written by Rose out of Strawberry Switchblade at the time, where she'd said most of her class wanted to grow up and become carpenters, shop girls, etc and she was the only one who wanted to be a 'star'.. I can't help thinking the ratio has reversed these days

You'd be surprised.

― Si.C@rter (SiC@rter), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 22:41 (nineteen years ago)

Yea, I guess I have a more pessimistic world-view and I don't really want kids anyway, but I would think that reasonably thriving would be a pretty noble goal. Of course, I would want to give them the opportunities that I felt would enable that, but (and I'm thinking more of adolescence here) I don't think thriving is really a common teenage quality. Younger kids, I guess, yes, I would be hoping that they were pretty happy and well adjusted--before the onset of puberty and moping. Also, theoretically, I may differ from how much I think I can influence a child, which is strange, because perhaps I overestimate the negative traits I would surely unconsciously pass along. I just think of all the things that could conceivably go wrong with a kid . . .

― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 23:14 (nineteen years ago)

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