Baltimore or Toronto?

there is also a lot of good food in toronto.
and good, respected universities. good connections to music/film/arts industries/networks.
you will also be closer to montreal, which is fun and good.

i know v little about baltimore except that jess complains about it all the time (right?)

OTM, rrrobyn, re: good food in TO. cheap and tasty sushi!

rent is not cheap

also, keep in mind you're right on lake ontario and winters are frigid.

i am going there this weekend!

xpost

Chinatown (Spadina, mainly) scares me in the summer, as it's hot and can smell like foodstuffs gone bad.

I've always found that in most cities in the U.S.

I'm guessing these are professorship offers?

also bs

i think this city does get a bad rap sometimes, and while i'm sure its well deserved (montreal is definitely cooler), there is a really broad spectrum of scenes/people/stuff here, so no matter what you're into, you'll probably find it here in some capacity.

plus, ROTI

that said, mary's comment: Toronto is probably more international and colder, B'more is more provincial and slice-of-lifey is very true.

I love big cities, but I fucking hate it here.

That said, I am poor. I can only afford live in the shitty ghetto outskirts. So I guess if you have money and can afford to live in a really nice area, then go for it. But don't kid yourself that it's clean.

Where else have you lived? Toronto is cleaner than just about any "large" North American city I can think of ("large" > 1 million people). For instance, look at the cleanliness of T.O.'s public transit system vs anyone else's. And have you ever driven/sat in traffic in Chicago, LA, Manhattan ...

I was in Toronto a few years back in the summer during a garbage strike. Terrible!

while toronto is by no means squeaky clean (i do find it kinda gross sometimes), it's true that it is relatively tidy by comparison. still, i don't get the whole "clean" thing anyway... does it really make a difference when deciding whether to visit/live somewhere? maybe...

Is it just me, or are there a lot of panhandlers in Toronto? Semi-clean dudes, in leather jackets, coming up to your car when you get off the QE, or are driving down Spadina by all those new condo towers, asking for money. Or just kids sitting on Queen or College, asking for money, or weed.

Keep in mind, I love Toronto! I think it's a great city.

Ok, now I've just proceeded to bum myself out.

Good point. I understand that the pollution, traffic, etc, you get everywhere, but the area where I live is so monumentally awful and depressing, especially in light of how much fucking rent I pay. I’ve been on subways in more huge cities than I can remember right now (mostly not in North American, though), and TO’s isn’t bad but I don’t think it’s that spectacular compared to others.

I think I could like Toronto if I lived in a nicer, more convenient part of it. Downtown is far more appealing than the rest of southern Ontario, that’s for sure.

i remember when i first moved to mtl, i was agast at how on garbage day the sidewalks were piled with black/green garbage bags, and i thought, ohgod, how unsanitary and, i don't know, 'low class'. i totally don't even notice it anymore! vancouver is crazy clean, if only b/c it's all about putting garbage in dumpsters and bins and not in piles on the sidewalk. so, yeah, what does 'clean' really mean.

my feelings on TO are pretty similar to slocki's. except i can't shake my bias against ontario as generally, at its core, pretty boring :/ ottawantonians excepted, somehow. okay okay, and a few others :) i do not mean to be mean
xpost

It took me forever to find the part of town that had a few decent used book stores, though. Although I don't really sense that would be easier in Baltimore.

xpost

but 2:45 is still cool, right?

it's weird, i find Toronto pretty grubby these days. Downtown Chicago and Manhattan both seemed much cleaner than Queen W or Spadina to me. And the transit system is totally falling apart right now - streetcar rides that should take 20 mins routinely take an hour these days. It's not Detroit or anything - but it's not as squeaky clean as people make it out to be - particularly when you get off the tourist track

I've never beeen to Baltimore so I can't help you much...

Toronto pros: roti, lots of pretty good bands and art, a few decent record stores, Roncesvalles, the islands, pretty relaxed class/race relations relative to parts of the States (many would argue this), Baldwin Street, Play De Record, old friends and family (you'll have to stay a long time to make that apply), feels new compared to Montreal or NYC or Chicago - still has the potential to be many different things...

Toronto cons: always too hot or too cold - only comfortable for about 6 non-consecutive weeks a year, condo boom is eating up a lot of the city's charm + open spaces, not out-goingly friendly like many american cities (except when we drink), indie rock style self-deprecation/loathing permeates everything (even this), feels new compared to Montreal or NYC or Chicago - still has the potential to be many different things...

music scene: A+++++ would buy from again. especially if you have any interest at all in the experimental/avant/noise/weirdo/electronic side of things. (this goes for the visual art and cinema side of things as well.)

food: i mean, it ain't new york. or any other first tier north american city. but i really can't complain, as al said in his xpost there's plenty of good ethnic joints and baltimore's devotion to the chicken box is second to none. there's probably better drunk food here than any place i've ever lived.

IT IS INCREDIBLY CHEAP TO LIVE HERE. from what i understand it's a lot less cheap to live here than it was a few years ago even, but it's still cheaper than any major east coast/mid-atlantic city.

it's pretty ungentrified, which is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on your feelings about being able to get to target on the weekend. (i go back and forth on this.)

IT IS INCREDIBLY INSULAR. people never seem to leave, the ones that do seem to return in a number of years, many of the people in bands and involved in other areas of the arts have been kicking around in various configurations for a decade or more. social situations, shows, and the community in general can often feel like weekly high school reunions. you get used to it pretty quickly, but i still find it somewhat maddening at times, on both a professional and personal level.

you should buy a car if you don't have one already. otherwise be prepared to take a lot of buses and/or cabs. and walk. a lot.

it's a pretty livable city, all things considered. my experience with toronto is somewhat limited; i would almost certainly guess that it's prettier and less "dangerous" than baltimore, though i like the slightly down at heel aspect to the city and if you keep your wits about you and aren't wandering through sketchy parts of town drunk off your ass after the bars close, you'll be fine. people get mugged, people get robbed, but that's any city. and, sadly more than anything, if you look at the murder statistics, they really are confined to certain geographic locations, which unsurprisingly have a high drug trade traffic and are generally afflicted by all the usual problems of poor inner city neighborhoods. and which, without wanting to assume too much about your situation, i'm assuming you wouldn't be moving to. and really, even those neighborhoods get a bad rap. few bad apples and all that.

i realize that all of this sounds like i'm not "selling" the city very well, when i've had many good times here and met a lot of good people here. and your salary, even if they are both comparable, will undoubtedly go further in baltimore. if you're a "creative type" you can really get a lot of things done here without worrying too much about making rent. a lot of "loving baltimore" does seem to come down to how much you a.) enjoy whatever it is you're doing in baltimore and b.) what your social circle ends up being like. i'm still finding my way here, and i sometimes wonder if i'll even be fully adapted by the time i leave. my conflicted feelings mostly stem from the fact that a.) my job is really the only thing keeping me here and b.) my girlfriend moved to chicago at the end of december, so if i grump about baltimore, it's down to that.

the winters are harsh (last couple weeks have been v cold), but thanks to our pal global warming, it's shortening. our december was pretty mild this year...

but that's just me, most of Canadians outside of Toronto really really despise it... Montrealers especially.

I'm from New Zealand, which is by no means HOT like California, and I find the winters here completely brutal. So yes, you will find it unimaginably cold. However, it's completely doable. You just need to make sure you have a really great winter jacket and good boots.

Toronto doesn't do that in terms of "Canada".

Does that make any sense?

(xpost - yeah, Baltimore definitely lives up to its "weird" reputation; i mean, it's not like a living John Waters movie where drag queens are walking around eating turds or anything, but eccentricity is given a lot of room to fester and thrive)

Living downtown (between Dufferin/Jarvis and King/Eglington, or on the Danforth) is absolutely necessary, as mentioned above. Whatever you do, don't get stuck in Etobicoke or Scarborough or Oakville or Vaughan. And Ontario itself (save some lovely patches of cottage country up north) is pretty dull.

Other than that, I haven't visited Baltimore, but I moved to Toronto in 2003 from London, UK, and absolutely love it here. Great for movies, music, galleries, secondhand bookstores, ethnic food and general hanging-out; museums and clothes, could do better. The newspapers are also pretty decent, and you can buy the NYT almost everywhere. I find it strange people think Toronto's unfriendly -- compared to London, at least, it's like everybody here is drunk. (It's not Northern California-friendly, but where is?)

There is (as mentioned above) a somewhat precious and annoying indie aesthetic here -- but it's very easy to ignore. I don't get the Montreal vs. Toronto thing at all. They both seem like lovely cities with their own niches.

That said, I love the Wire more than life itself, so Baltimore.

or charming gay sociopaths with a dark sense of humor and a strong sense of outlaw morality?

(omar was in my dream last night. he invited me to a movie.)

IT IS INCREDIBLY CHEAP TO LIVE HERE

still true (about baltimore)??

not when you're broke as a joke in baltimore

i wonder what happened

Toronto

gtfo

Dirt bikes

i should admit i have never been to baltimore but i have lived in montreal my whole life and was brainwashed to know toronto as an uncooler, more boring, and economically efficient older brother city from a very young age. also, the time i have spent there and broad generalizations about the type of people who live there based on torontonians i have known--it's the truth

booooo.

Xpost: I'll support Toronto with all or at least most of my might, but yeah, ultimately, that is true. Though Toronto-Montreal rivalries are at best silly if not downright stupid (though on that note I find Montreal to be totally overrated, barring some select things. It's party-harty cheap rent, ample alcohol, hipper younger brother persona has done nothing for me lately, and 2 years ago when I was spent 5 weeks there, I just felt like I going home)

Then again, lots of Torontonians are assholes, development and gentrification spreading like cancer have made downtown increasingly lifeless and trite, and it feels like corporate, conservative bureaucracy rules all.

I can't say Baltimore seems much more appealing, though.

Baltimore's dirt-bike love is pretty awful.

i've been to Baltimore since this thread was started and i'm 100% serious when i say it's about as nice as Phnom Penh.

and i was not really aware there was still a Toronto-Montreal rivalry. i was to understand we were united in our loathing of Vancouver.

http://img1.loadtr.com/b-424886-Phnom_Penh.jpg

That Hampden there?

xxpost: I think this might actually be a result of Toronto's paranoiac personality and general inferiority complex, where everyone is convinced the rest of Canada hates them (which may very well be true, actually) and that it sees Montreal (the most viable source of "competition") as a threat, and projects the idea that there's a rivalry.

Ultimately I think a lot of this actually boils down to hockey allegiances, of which I personally have no part.

ah the PP museum. it's v lovely. outside the place:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/428917176_4f1be62ad4.jpg