London Propery Prices 2007

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Theres a first floor flat on Moray Rd which went for £230K a couple of weeks ago. The agent called me to tell me that the basement will be coming on the market, this is a march price rather than a february price, so although its a basement itll come on at £255k. its in the same building

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 06:48 (eighteen years ago)

Someone here lives in Stamford Hill don't they? You should go get your place valued and then celebrate. According to locationlocation prices in Stamford Hill have gone up by 40% since August. same again by christmas

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 06:50 (eighteen years ago)

There was a place in Brockley that looked nice, and i called early, there hadnt even been any viewings yet. it got sold without a viewing

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 06:54 (eighteen years ago)

I told an agent/broker that there was no way i'd be able to get a 250k place, theres no way the bank would give me the money, its more than 6x salary. he told me not to worry about it, they can get me far more than that, they dont care about those limits anymore, because people dont bother with savings or pensions or any of that stuff, so there are no other outgoings

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 06:57 (eighteen years ago)

i nearly bought just before christmas, a place for 180, but it didnt quite work out, for various reasons.

luckily they have another in the same building now for 240

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 06:58 (eighteen years ago)

i told one agent my budget, and she said sorry this isnt 2006!

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 06:59 (eighteen years ago)

she then said look just buy anything it doesnt matter what

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 07:01 (eighteen years ago)

one estate agent only has pages and pages of properties on its website. only one isnt under offer.

i enquired about it

its under offer

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 07:02 (eighteen years ago)

i put bids in on 3 places last night.

along with a bunch of other people

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 07:03 (eighteen years ago)

dont even really need to move in if you dont like it, by the time its all gone through, just put it back on the market for 10-15k more

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 07:05 (eighteen years ago)

someone told me yesterday they thought buy to lets were silly because theres no profit in it, and rental prices are driven low by the huge glut of rental properties, and you barely cover your mortgage

im like, i think the money made from rent is just a bonus to cover some of the cost, not the actual reason!

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 07:08 (eighteen years ago)

Don't take any financial advice from estate agents, they're just a bunch of spivs.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 08:44 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, "look just buy anything it doesnt matter what" is not what I'd call sensible advice.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 09:26 (eighteen years ago)

theres no way the bank would give me the money, its more than 6x salary.

I'm glad to hear it. Banks in Ireland are busy giving out 40-year mortgages for 14 times people's salaries. It's not a good plan.

― accentmonkey, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 09:27 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, "look just buy anything it doesnt matter what" is not what I'd call sensible advice

it is when a house is going for 200 and then less than a month later one on same street is going for 225

theres no way the bank would give me the money, its more than 6x salary

as i pointed out, this is wrong, theyll give way more than that, i was mistaken

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 09:33 (eighteen years ago)

anyway estate agents dont need to lie anymore. they dont really need to even speak

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 09:34 (eighteen years ago)

Why anyone bothers with them when selling houses is a mystery to me?

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 09:35 (eighteen years ago)

(full stop?)

Agreed.

― Mark G, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 09:37 (eighteen years ago)

although its a basement itll come on at £255k

Wow- I didn't realise - I could sell my 4 bedroom detached house, with large garden, overlooking fields and a golf course, in a quiet cul de sac and buy a basement flat in London...where do I sign? Come on people - move to the east midlands! Plenty of jobs, cheap(er) houses and nice countryside.

― Ned Trifle II, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 10:35 (eighteen years ago)

AARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Where do these people get their information from?

Certainly not me. I get stupid journalists ringing up going "can you give me the gender breakdown on the buy to let market in 2005 and 2006?" and I have to dig it out. But will *I* get credit for the info?

Interest rates are going up and up. Income multiples and mortgage terms are going up and up - the whole point is that you get on the property ladder NOW NOW NOW and then refinance in a couple of years when it's gone even crazier and you have more equity in your home due to inflation.

I used an estate agent but I have my financial advisor beat them into line. Hah! When estate agents hear where I work, they get the frighteners put on them and don't try to pull no fast stuff.

I'm sure by the time I post this, x-posts will have driven the value of this post up by 40%.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

The thing about these mad 40 year deals is that the interest is so high that even though the time frame is twice as long, your repayment only goes down by a couple of hundred pounds as the interest is so high! You are paying interest on interest people, this is crazy!

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 10:47 (eighteen years ago)

A few things to bear in mind, Mr or Mrs 600:

- just because a bank might be prepared to lend you more than 6 x your salary, it doesn't mean you can afford it (especially if interest rates go up)
- just because prices have gone up, it doesn't mean they won't come crashing down at some point
- just because Estate Agents "don't need to lie any more", it doesn't mean they won't lie, or that they are economic experts, or in fact that they know anything about anything

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 10:49 (eighteen years ago)

i suspect mr 600 is being sarcastic altho everything he says is still true.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 10:50 (eighteen years ago)

I just spoke to another one, they dont have ANY properties to sell at all! not one! every single one is under offer

theyre hoping to get a couple at end of month though

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 10:55 (eighteen years ago)

i didnt say i could afford it.

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 10:56 (eighteen years ago)

i dont see london prices crashing for a long while. and they wont crash theyll level out, but its some way off surely

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 10:59 (eighteen years ago)

This thread is just too much like my job.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:01 (eighteen years ago)

Threads like this make me want to rent for the rest of my life.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:02 (eighteen years ago)

Threads like this just make me really glad I live in a totally unfashionable and therefore reasonable part of London.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:07 (eighteen years ago)

To be fair, Brockley's never exactly been touted as the new Hoxton either.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:08 (eighteen years ago)

To be fair 600 was looking at a grown floor flat in one of the sketchier parts of hackney with bars on the windows last night, and brockley the night before.

Can you move house prices with giant Johnny?

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:08 (eighteen years ago)

Seems there's going to be a big class divide between people who've got property and people who haven't if things keep going like this. Surely there has to be a crash sometime? The only people I know that are my age who own had help from their parents, not an option in my case unfortunately.

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:11 (eighteen years ago)

I cannot move house prices with my magic powers, just track where they are going. Buy To Let has got to run out of steam, but as posted upthread, it's not about the extra income from the rent, which barely covers the mortgage - property prices are rising so fast that it's about equity now.

The only thing I can add is that a lot of it is panic buying right now, because interest rates *are* rising - people are desprate to lock in a mortgage with a fixed rate now.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:13 (eighteen years ago)

Why anyone bothers with them when selling houses is a mystery to me?

It's fine if you're living in the property you're selling, but if you're not, it's an arseache to have to think about organizing viewings yourself. Also if you're selling on your own behalf, it's too hard to reject people's sob stories about why they can't afford to give you the absolute best price.

Still though, they are absolutely not worth the money, unless you're thinking of going to auction.

― accentmonkey, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:14 (eighteen years ago)

people are buy to letting on minimal equity and interest only mortgages, which sounds like insanity to me.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:15 (eighteen years ago)

What *can* you do with your magic powers?

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:15 (eighteen years ago)

Argh, this is the company that *invented* the interest only (Endowment) mortgage and I still think it's insanity. They only really work in bullish economy where investments rise faster in value than interest rates. And at the moment, the fastest rising investment is property!

But dont' say that too loud around here, they love them.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:16 (eighteen years ago)

but this is not even with an endowment, this is pay the interest only and expect house prices to rise to build equity and just sell at some point in the future (or re-mortgage to flip equity into other properties)

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:18 (eighteen years ago)

Huh? Is that even legal? I'm pretty sure that Compliance won't let us sell interest only mortgages without some kind of investment plan in place.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:19 (eighteen years ago)

Oh it's legal and lot's of providers are doing it, some even for buy to live.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:24 (eighteen years ago)

I could afford to buy seven years ago because I'd spent most of the '90s being paid increasingly silly money as a software developer but renting cheaply in rural Cumbria (and I had no social life). Hence, I had savings.

Now, of course, after 16 months unemployed in 2001-02 and a (stalling) career change there's no way I could get on the property ladder if I was starting from scratch without taking advantage of one of these insane rest-of-your-life 6 x income mortgage deals. When I switch or remortgage next year, I'll probably be looking at one of these sign-your-life-away I-can't-believe-you're-gonna-give-me-the-money products to get me out of unsecured debt/get the monthly repayments down.

Eventually, moving out of London (out of the UK altogether, perhaps) will be the only option.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:35 (eighteen years ago)

>> Eventually, moving out of London (out of the UK altogether, perhaps) will be the only option.

Yeah, it's looking that way. I do have the option of moving to LA, but I hate hot weather :(

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:41 (eighteen years ago)

Ha ha ha ha ha, oh the LA market? Some friends of mine sold their house in the London suburbs (worth nearly twice what they paid for it) and then just took that and used it as a deposit on an overinflated property in LA.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:46 (eighteen years ago)

one estate agent only has pages and pages of properties on its website. only one isnt under offer.

i enquired about it

its under offer

In my experience estate agents' websites are always out of date, the best way is to write down their numbers and keep pestering them about new properties.

― braveclub, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:49 (eighteen years ago)

Well I dunno, my brother-in-law has a lovely big house and paid about £250k for it a couple of years ago. This is in suburbia of course, but I'd be happy living somewhere half the size of his place.

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:50 (eighteen years ago)

Well, I might conceivably have job opportunities - without another complete career change - in LA, Montreal or rural PA (I don't fancy any of those) but really we were thinking (more idly musing, to be honest - it's just a pipe dream) of Portland, OR, Northampton, MA, Raleigh, NC - those sort of places. $200k gets you a lot over there...

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:54 (eighteen years ago)

You could buy a freaking mansion in Vermont - I could buy two of my mum's house for the price of my one-bedroom. (And she has a separate flat upstairs that she rents to cover the rates.)

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:55 (eighteen years ago)

really good programme on the radio the other morning, seems obvious but for some reason i'd never thought of it, making the point that homeowners get all giddy when house prices go up, but actually that just means their next property is going to be that much more expensive, so it really gets you nowhere - unless you plan on moving someplace much smaller or in a cheaper town, which is rarely the case

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:08 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think I will be living in London in 10 years time.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:17 (eighteen years ago)

Because it's not about the total price of your house, it's about the *equity* - which provides leverage to buy a more expensive house next time.

The single biggest thing which affects how much you can afford isn't actually your salary but your deposit.

The price of your house rising gives you FREE EQUITY without your having to pay down your mortgage - so you can trade that in for a more expensive house next time, so it doesn't actually matter how much other houses have gone up, so long as they have gone up in the same increment that your equity has acrued through inflation.

This is why the first step on the housing ladder is the hardest, and it gets easier once you already have a house.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:19 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, the only sense in which it does you any good is if you're in one of those "up and coming" areas where the prices are rising faster than the average.

The £250k barrier (effectively imposed by the 3% stamp duty threshold) has been well and truly broken in the last few months down here; you'd previously see lots of properties crowded around £249 but now it's like, sod it, we're listing this at £270k.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:20 (eighteen years ago)

(Sorry - my "yes" was agreeing with Tracer, buy your point re: equity is true too)

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:21 (eighteen years ago)

here you go folks

also thx to 600 et al for making me feel lots better about coming back from the el cheapo desert to this bullshit

a couple of years ago we were talking about the UK leading a worldwide real estate crash, get your demographics sorted out already.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:54 (eighteen years ago)

yes its all about equity. salaries really have nothing to do with anything. the stamford hill-honor oak stretch is risingrisingrising, and if you can get in on this, or are in on this, you probably just made about £2 in the time it took to read this thread

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:56 (eighteen years ago)

Wow, you sure sound bitter abou this.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:58 (eighteen years ago)

it doesn't actually matter how much other houses have gone up, so long as they have gone up in the same increment that your equity has acrued through inflation.

but if your equity rises at about the same rate as the prices of other houses (whose rising prices demand a larger chunk of equity as deposit), when you "flip" the house to buy another, you're not actually making any money/getting a bigger house, etc. right?

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:58 (eighteen years ago)

[i]Wow, you sure sound bitter abou this[/]

its a sunny day and no one stabbed me in the face on the way to work, so it depends how you look at it

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 12:59 (eighteen years ago)

How anyone aaffords to buy a house in London is entirely beyond me. We're buying a two bed semi here in the 'Skirk, decent sized garden, off road parking, £130K. If we'd got our act together a couple of years ago we could have bought it for half that. The figures being chucked around here I simply wouldn't be able to afford. Ever. The wife and I are both full time professionals on a reasonable whack, and this house is about our limit.

― Matt, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:02 (eighteen years ago)

i cant tell if im trying to do this at entirely the wrong time or not

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:04 (eighteen years ago)

but all i know is, id be 30k up if id done this even 6 weeks ago

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:04 (eighteen years ago)

I had no trouble *finding* a house. I looked in the local newspaper, I saw a picture of my current flat, and knew I had to make it mine. I went to the estate agent, they showed me round a couple of places, but I fell in love with my current flat. It was the third flat I saw. Two days later, I put in an offer, it was accepted within hours. I even got a grand knocked off the price because my surveyor said there was damp. It was a bit of faff getting the mortgage sorted out, and it was stressful, but it was six weeks from start to finish and I was in by Christmas.

Now maybe I was lucky, maybe I had the right connections because I work for the right people, but not every London house-buying experience is a nightmare.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:07 (eighteen years ago)

Stamp duty thresholds to change as of this budget.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:22 (eighteen years ago)

600, I recommend reading the recent news on another little real estate market called "The United States" for some perspective

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:50 (eighteen years ago)

Uh, I doubt "The United States" real estate market is anything like as ridiculous as London right now, thanks.

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:56 (eighteen years ago)

The recent US market movement/crash does have some relevance, however the market in the US and the UK are quite different for the following reasons:

1) Much more building land in the US so supply of new homes is less tight
2) Intercontinental housing market; it is much easier for someone to transfer DC to Phoenix than say London to Valencia, because of the language barrier
3) Very high net immigration in the UK
4) Very strong concentration of economic activity in one region of the UK (the south east)
5) Much lest regulate mortgage and real estate market

What makes them similar is the increase in single occupancy homes and the general hysteria and a cultural preponderance towards ownership.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 13:56 (eighteen years ago)

It is comparable to New York metro area though, and even New York prices are leveling off and may fall. And people were saying the exact same things about New York only a few months ago.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:03 (eighteen years ago)

but this has been going on in the UK for a much longer period of time, and as Ed points out, the demography is completely different

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:06 (eighteen years ago)

I don't know the details of the London market, but everything being said in this thread sounds very familiar. I recommend seriously looking at a few factors:

1) Buying costs vs. rents - if these are way out of whack, you may be better off renting and investing the difference in something else.

2) Buying costs vs. median income levels - if these are way out of whack, property can't keep appreciating the way it is for too long.

3) Bottom line - what you can afford. Buying something you can't really afford based on the assumption that the value appreciation will pay for it is VERY risky.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:07 (eighteen years ago)

6) The UK only really has one metropolis

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:07 (eighteen years ago)

I don't doubt that the UK is in a bubble, but it is one that has sustained itself for a ridiculous amount of time. Prices would have to fall by over 60% for me to go into negative equity and I have only owned for 4 years.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:11 (eighteen years ago)

Hurting you should know by now after years of reading and posting on ILX alone that common sense undergoes strange but perfectly legitimate transmogrifications when you cross that GMT-1 rubicon

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:16 (eighteen years ago)

The UK housing market scores minus several millions on the common sense scale, this is like tulip bulbs all over again.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:17 (eighteen years ago)

Fair enough. I may be too far out of my time zone here.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:17 (eighteen years ago)

7) Flat room temperature beer is acceptable

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:18 (eighteen years ago)

Damn right and I am a member of a society that campaigns to protect it.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:18 (eighteen years ago)

cross that GMT-1 rubicon

Look, it does very plainly say LONDON property prices up there in the thread title. Now fuck off and go tip someone or something.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:18 (eighteen years ago)

The US market crash does have bearing, only when the UK one comes it will be much much worse.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:19 (eighteen years ago)

600's "If I don't get in now I'll never be able to afford it!!!" panic still seems like a bad reason to buy anywhere, but maybe if I were British I'd be condemning myself to poverty with my logic.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:21 (eighteen years ago)

A lot of people are panic buying at the moment, because interest rates are on the up. They feel this pressure that they HAVE to lock in that rate now before it goes any higher - because the general trend of London housing prices is they do just climb and climb - they never fall, they just slow their increase.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:22 (eighteen years ago)

haven't these people seen Children of Men, though?

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:23 (eighteen years ago)

the stamford hill-honor oak stretch is risingrisingrising

srsly though? blmy...

we've been meaning to get a valuation, but we've a couple of things (eg damp patch on bathroom ceiling, painting round, new back door) to sort first.

however, this sounds like we needn't bother.

winkworths put up a sign next door to ours 2 days ago that MUST have gone up with the "sold - subject to contract" bit already showing (what was the point of the sign????)

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:32 (eighteen years ago)

to advertise winkworth.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:33 (eighteen years ago)

winkworths put up a sign next door to ours 2 days ago that MUST have gone up with the "sold - subject to contract" bit already showing (what was the point of the sign????)

ARGH ARGH, I HATE ESTATE AGENTS, KILL KILL KILL THEY JUST DRILL NAILS IN YR HOUSE TO ADVERTISE THEMSELVES WHEN THEY DID NOTHING, NOTHING I TELL YOU! ARGH!

Ha hem. Sorry. Not that I've had any freaking Earnest and Frank freaking billboards drilled in MY house recently.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:34 (eighteen years ago)

but maybe if I were British I'd be condemning myself to poverty with my logic.

lots of us do not own and have no real intention of doing so for the foreseeable future, for various reasons (i guess naivety/ignorance/not really giving much of a shit about where the cueball ends up included - see also pensions/savings tho). but we hardly live in even relative poverty as a result.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:36 (eighteen years ago)

yeah I mean you don't even have to tip people, that's like $3000 a year right there

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:40 (eighteen years ago)

Fear our VAT though, that's like government tipping.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:41 (eighteen years ago)

seriously though I've just looked around at some lender calculator type thingamabobs that they have at various websites and realized that we are basically not in the market for any property until our current debt load ($tudent Loan$) is paid down. Fuck that, I'd rather go on two vacations a year.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:42 (eighteen years ago)

you can't, you don't get the holiday time.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:43 (eighteen years ago)

what road you live on carsmile?

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:45 (eighteen years ago)

now, owning a house, vacation that involves leaving it is but a dream.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:49 (eighteen years ago)

Student loan payments aren't really worth bothering about here so I read - mine is pretty big and I didn't even graduate which miffs me, but the interest rate is really low and I've had some pretty good advice which says don't even bother paying it off in bulk (even if I could EVER do this) - money saved would be much better going towards deposit money - on saying this, my money is going on paying off the credit card, and once that's done it will become official Savings.

But I doubt I'd buy in London unless I suddenly married a jillionaire or something - single person on average income, purchasing their own house, with not much of a deposit, somewhere where they'd actually like to live?! You're joking... but luckily I don't really have a desire to buy at all, even though I have been spotted getting extremely bitter about house prices when drunk (although I am bitter about EVERYTHING in that sort of drunk state I'm sorry everyone).

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:51 (eighteen years ago)

http://economistsview.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/china25206.jpg
lol new road to serfdom amirite

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:54 (eighteen years ago)

(comic supposedly lifted from China Daily like two years ago0

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

the irony is, paying its not actually that big a deal. its just if you can get it in the first place

― 600, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)

at least the interest on student loans drops as the remainder to pay drops. mine's only around £7 a month now.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)

Man, this thead makes me feel sooooo smug. :-)

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

Does London share our fervor for luxury "amenities" condo buildings with super-high "maintenance fees"? Srsly some of these fees are more than my rent - just join the nearest gym for $60/month and hire repair people when you need them for crying out loud.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

*glares theateningly at Smug Owner Syndrome with estate agent billboard close to hand*

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

Aww, sorry, Starry - this is like my payback for years of dealing with smug marrieds. I finally get to be smug about something that just turned out to be down to good luck and genetics.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:00 (eighteen years ago)

i know some people who own their house and are happily married.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:01 (eighteen years ago)

"good luck and genetics" is redundant

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:01 (eighteen years ago)

although has been noted this thread is about uk property troubles, since other US folx are chiming in I"ll specifiy our state of serfdom. the mortage and getting of the house were not a big deal. all our money is going into remodeling (we just topped 10k in our kitchen remodel) we hope to sell in five years and make some money. the market's fairly good where we live.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:02 (eighteen years ago)

xpost to hurting

not so much as in the US, mainly because a few more flats could be squeezed into that space.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

My serious suggestion would be sit back, forget about it, for fuck's sake don't panic buy and certainly don't buy somewhere you have no intention of living in just to sell it on when it doubles in price in a month or whatever. If you're going to buy somewhere and not live in it, why even buy in London?

If you're stretching to afford somewhere now it's probably the wrong time to buy regardless of what the market's doing. In two years your budget and income could be much bigger, although you'd have to hope that the market doesn't race away even from that.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

Certainly seems, speaking for London, that buying a place requires two incomes - but maybe having a big deposit (fnur) makes it easier? My savings = zero but I do have an Real Actual Proper Pension, send all the Mum Points over here pls.

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:04 (eighteen years ago)

You could of course build yr own house complete with DARTS SHAPED SWIMMING POOL like that darts commentator feller! I wonder if that would be cheaper!

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

hey ladies, want to take a look at my equity, fnurr

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

Does London share our fervor for luxury "amenities" condo buildings with super-high "maintenance fees"?

You may get this and not get the actual amentities if you have a shitty leasehold - my ex partner lived rent free in his mum's flat in Central London on the condition he keep up the service charges - which he complained were just as high as "another mortgage" (as if he'd know).

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

600

this is next door to us:

http://www.findaproperty.com/displayprop.aspx?edid=00&salerent=0&pid=540944&agentid=07679

that's a fair whack more than we paid for ours AND they haven't done all the things we've done to ours (check out the kitchen!!) AND AND whoever has an offer in will have to live next to me ;)

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:08 (eighteen years ago)

the irony is, paying its not actually that big a deal. its just if you can get it in the first place

but the kind of figures you're talking about borrowing could easily mean you end up paying £1,300 a month on your own - surely that is a big deal?

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

something unremarked here so far is that the runaway house prices of the last 5-10 years constitute an enormous transfer of wealth from the young - the people buying places - to the old - the people selling them. you could say this is the way it's always been but you'd be wrong. the oldies snapped up townhouses in the 1960's, 70's and 80's for a much smaller percentage of their income than what people are paying now. new figures out this past monday show that 2006 showed a huge leap in the UK in the income divide between young and old, with the old pulling away substantially - mainly because of home prices.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

Solve the housing crisis - kill your parents

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:11 (eighteen years ago)

Certainly seems, speaking for London, that buying a place requires two incomes - but maybe having a big deposit (fnur) makes it easier?

That's half right. I certainly don't have two incomes, though I have a good job.

I don't even think my deposit was 10% of the house - but I saved half of it almost by accident, being on a real salary while still living in an ultra-cheap flatshare. The other half I got from a fluke windfall on my mum's part. In my situation, I probably could have saved the whole amount in about a year (had the housemate not got married and his wife asked me to leave) but property prices in my area only went up about £10k in that year, rather than runaway Stamford Hill (Stamford Hill, FFS!!!)

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

That's kind of what I was talking about here: Seems there's going to be a big class divide between people who've got property and people who haven't if things keep going like this.

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:13 (eighteen years ago)

xpost obv

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:14 (eighteen years ago)

England in self perpetuating class divide shockah!

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:14 (eighteen years ago)

A two-up, 2-down Victorian Terrace where I live will be around £400K. That is insanity! Yet apparently they're on the market for only a few days before someone snaps them up.

― Dr.C, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

Kate's right, leasehold can be far worse than just extortionate service charges - boy am I glad that I've got rid of the leasehold flat and gone freehold. We bought the flat in 2001, lease was a bit short, but quotes for renewing were about £3K. By the time we could use the strong arm of the law to get a good deal (you have to have owned the property for a minimum period before asking for a lease extension under the terms of the act) we were being quoted £12.5K Grrr!

I'm really glad we moved when we did, I'm not sure we could contemplate it now and we only bought in Jan, I'm glad that we bought at the lower end of the budget and did it up so -ve equity isn't as much of an issue, and I'm so glad that we got a fixed rate at 5.18%..... At the minute I'm thinking that we were really really lucky.

― Vicky, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

tracer, the baby boomers will spend the next 40 years metaphorically fvcking us in the ass, we mayaswell get used to it...

srsly, they are NEVER GOING TO DIE, come 2030 when we are meant to be retiring that lot will still be riding around on their harleys and having seven holidays a year, meaning we can't stop working until 3 months before we drop...

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:17 (eighteen years ago)

Leasehold should be abolished, it is the biggest fucking feudal scam going. Very few other parks of the world have it.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:18 (eighteen years ago)

tracer, the baby boomers will spend the next 40 years metaphorically fvcking us in the ass, we mayaswell get used to it...

srsly, they are NEVER GOING TO DIE, come 2030 when we are meant to be retiring that lot will still be riding around on their harleys and having seven holidays a year, meaning we can't stop working until 3 months before we drop...

Carsmile OTFM

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

My ex-partner's flat was a big building, in Central London, and the Bedford Estates were just shocking in their mis-management of it.

I have a leasehold now, but uh... are they ever going to bill me for any kind of service charges? I assume they'd get in contact if they wanted any, but they never have. It's kind of negligable as per the deeds and stuff, though.

My mum told me to stretch *slightly* when buying a house - that my salary would rise, and it did. But I certainly didn't overstretch. I could still afford to buy the occasional trip to France if I wanted.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

I always get strangely fascinated by house talk, although I'm completely on the outside looking in, it's like there's a House Owner Zoo and you get to watch them (because House Owners do like talking about their houses you must admit :)) - I think it's part of my wanting to acquire every single bit of knowledge I can about a complicated and big process (a bit like how I can spend 6 months deciding eg wot mobile phone to upgrade to when it really doesn't MATTER, and on different types of sewing machines etc). And part of it is just BOGGLING at the amounts of money people suddenly start talking about - it's a bit - what? These sums of money just never occur in my life! Where did you get them from! Do you find them under the bed? I should check! seems like you just have to admit it's going to cost you so much you have to think the associated costs as fairly meaningless - it's just numbers! Another survey? A grillion pounds? Fine! What's a grillion! La la...

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

If I spend my afternoon googling freeholds and leaseholds instead of working I will have to TUFF YOU LOT UP.

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:21 (eighteen years ago)

all my boyfriend wants to talk about ishouses. Now it's mostly plumbing and gaslines and drywall but when he hears someone else is buying one. . .he wants every detail of their process. Before we bought this one I swear the only conversations we had were about "buying the house". Which makes sense. It is a big commitment.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:22 (eighteen years ago)

We bought nearly two years ago, at around the same time as several of our friends. In order to afford anything we had to move to a cheap part of London. At the time all my friends got fixed-rate mortgages because they were worried about some kind of early 90s-style rates explosion. I went for a variable rate instead because it worked out at least £100 a month cheaper (on the rates as they were at that time), and we were only locked in for two years, and I just couldn't see rates possibly going up enough during those two years for us to end up out of pocket. I gambled and it paid off - even with the recent rises we're still paying less each month than we would have been if we'd gone for a fixed rate. It's now coming up to the time when we have to decide what to do next. I'm tempted to gamble on a variable one again - is this madness?

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:23 (eighteen years ago)

I held Ten Thousand Euros in my hand as I was going through the process of house buying! Ten thousand! For a brief second, I entertained thoughts of running away to Spain or something, but realised it wasn't that much money in the scheme of things, so I changed it and put it in my deposit.

I had hysterical laughing attacks when I first got my mortgage papers. Like... they're going to give me HOW MUCH?!?!? and just not being able to get my head around it. Now I'm more used to it, but it still fucks me off when I get the statments and realise that I'm still just paying down the interest and fees and barely actually own about half the bathroom of mine own house.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:23 (eighteen years ago)

These days I find myself reading Country Life and looking at the fantasy dream cottages and saying things like "Only half a million? Actually that's quite reasonable..." because I'm so used to dealing with properties that cost ten times what mind cost.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:26 (eighteen years ago)

sarah's last-but-one post OTM OTM OTM. i can't even begin to imagine EVER being able to buy a house. and have no idea how anyone else has!

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:26 (eighteen years ago)

House prices in England rose 6% last year - three times faster than the consumer price index of inflation

Average house prices have risen by 139% since Labour came to power in 1997. Earnings have risen by 24%

First-time buyers accounted for 30% of home purchases in 2005, compared with 50% in 1995

115,352 mortgage repossession proceedings were initiated in 2005, a 48% increase on 2004

The number of households waiting for a suitable affordable home on housing registers is now more than 1.5m - a rise of nearly 50% since 2000

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:27 (eighteen years ago)

the post about zoos, and insane amounts of money, i meant

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:27 (eighteen years ago)

i mean if all of you have these spare thousands of pounds lying around you can buy starry and i drinks next time we're in the pub innit

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

Wot I am curious to know is - is this shared ownership (the 60% you, 40% some sort of housing association where you part buy/part rent) thing as completely barking as it seems? And that's a fair howler...

No, one of my bandmates did this, and it actually worked out great for her - it's all about building equity. Equity is your new GOD.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

Lex - well exactly!

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

There is not one region in the whole of England and Wales where the average price is below £155,500.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not buying you drinks, Lex, all my enourmous amounts of money are tied up in my equity. Go get your own equity. It's like that parable of the ant and the grasshopper.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

lex, the fact that they aren't "spare" is how you accumulate them. stocks, savings, second jobs/businesses, buying clothes at target, etc.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:31 (eighteen years ago)

which proves our point! ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-FIVE THOUSAND POUNDS?????!!!!!! i cannot IMAGINE that sum of money being in my possession.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:31 (eighteen years ago)

stocks, savings, second jobs/businesses, buying clothes at target, etc.

i don't have enough to play the stockmarket or to save (well i'm about to start doing this but at the rate i can afford it will be approximately two centuries before i can start thinking in terms of £155,000), i have a second job kinda.

and i don't know what an equity is.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

equity is the part of the property that you actually own.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

"Older people have seen their wealth treble in ten years thanks to soaring property prices while young adults have become poorer, the Bank of England says today."

-- 18.03.07 This is London - March 18 2007 - The old get richer as under 34s fall behind

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:34 (eighteen years ago)

i thought that would have been...all of it? ideally?

did you people do evening courses or something to learn this?

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:34 (eighteen years ago)

Well I have always assumed the house price is what you get leant as yr mortgage - but all the extras like 3k on "service charges" and "stamp duty" whatever that is - I certainly don't even have THAT! The Big Sum is so big that it doesn't really even seem to count. And do mortgage payers just pay the same sort of amounts that renters do, plus all the extras that renters don't think about? Do they pay LESS than renters do, cos surely people who rent are generally paying some rich fvckers mortgage anyway (have never liked any of my landlords so forgive me for generalising negatively, all the hoome owners on this thread are lovely of course).

I think I *sort of* get equity but I'd have to sit in a quiet room with whale noises playing or something before I could actually try and explain it!

Gawd I love renting...

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)

Ideally yes but noone has that kind of money lying around so you pay a little money up front and the bank pays the rest, you pay the bank and gradually you own more and more of the property.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)

xpost to Lex

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:37 (eighteen years ago)

it's this thing

called "usury"

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

Ideally yes but noone has that kind of money lying around so you pay a little money up front and the bank pays the rest, you pay the bank and gradually you own more and more of the property.

gradually in about 400 years?

(i actually realise that i do understand all of this, just the word 'equity' threw me)

(i have still got no idea how to get ANY of the sum required to actually DO it)

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

lex, sarah

don't even start. the day i'm overdrawn at the bank o' drink buying is a LONG way off yet.

shared ownership is pretty cool, you end up paying same as a rent but, as kate sa, you're building equity innit.

mind you, even when you kiddywinks hit 65 the boomers will only just be starting to die off. it was all that rationing post-war you know, and the NHS and free milk. they are the fittest generation ever to live...

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

Hey lex, me you and John Wayne should buy a house, I am sure any bank would see us as good customers. There's a mansion in Hampstead that could do awesome parties.

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:40 (eighteen years ago)

Ok, can you give me an example of how the 'equity' being 'built' on this shared ownership thing would be good?

And why do I have a feeling it's probably a key-worker/REALLY low income thing...

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:41 (eighteen years ago)

I mean - could you sell it? How do you sell whatever percentage of the place you own?

THIS THREAD HAS RUINED MY DAY!

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:42 (eighteen years ago)

what is wrong with London?

people claim they cannot buy a house.

they can't get their kid into the local comp because it's over-subscribed and demand is exceeding supply.

and everyone moans about their job and the prospect that they might lose it in another few months.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:43 (eighteen years ago)

K8 - can you explain why? Ideally in bullet points? You have all the responsibilities for the property, but you can't own it, you're on the property ladder in a nominal sense but you're still forking out for rent as WELL as mortgage payments, it seems mad...

1) You don't have all the responsibility for the property, you have the same responsibilities as if you had a leasehold -i.e. just inside stuff which is covered by contents insurance anyway.

2) You don't pay full rent, or a full mortgage payment. You pay about the same as if you were renting, but half of it goes up the spout of rent, and the other half goes into your EQUITY BUILDING. You might pay a little bit more than a plain renter, but if you are plain renting ALL your money goes up the spout, never to be seen again. This way, it's like you get to keep 40% to 60% of your rent in savings to be reclaimed as cash back at some future date.

3) When you sell the house (it is never intended to be permanent - it is to get people's foot on the ladder) it will usually be for more than you paid for it. Differnt housing associations have different rules on this - in some, you get to keep the entire appreciation, in others you split the appreciation.

Say you buy a flat for £100,000 (yes, I know this is absurd, but imagine) - the council has a £60,000 share, you get a mortgage for £40,000.

Five years later, you sell the flat for £120,000! Woo!

£60,000 of that goes to the Housing Association. For the purposes of argument, you've paid off all but £30,000 of your mortgage - so you have to give £30,000 to the bank - that's £90,000 down - but you still have up to £30,000 left in equity! You can take *that* money and then go and use it as a down payment on a *real* house with a *real* mortgage.

Does that make sense?

It's like the housing association taking the place of the bank of mum and dad.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:43 (eighteen years ago)

equity means you own a bit, meaning you can sell it at some point

yes it is.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:44 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.timeout.com/img/23628/w200/image.jpg
LAmico Di Famiglia

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:44 (eighteen years ago)

Hey lex, me you and John Wayne should buy a house, I am sure any bank would see us as good customers. There's a mansion in Hampstead that could do awesome parties.

best plan outlined on thread yet

hampstead mansion suitable for party-throwing is my IDEAL HOUSE, and if we buy it with a dead person he won't make any fuss about the noise

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:46 (eighteen years ago)

If you are getting a mortgage based on your salary, you can only really expect to get about 4x your salary.

If you are only getting a mortgage on a bit of the house - a quarter of £40,000 means someone with a salary of £10,000 could get a mortgage for that amount.

Most of the money tied up in houses doesn't actually exist. That's why they hire mathematicians like me to keep track of it all. Speaking of which, I really should get back to work. I don't get paid to give mortgage advice to you lot for free.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:46 (eighteen years ago)

I've thought about looking into shared ownership to get us started, but I guess I assume there's a waiting list and/or as Sarah says you have to be key worker/really low income to get one.

I don't think we can even think about buying until we've paid off our credit card though. Unless I just keep being a 0% rate tart forever.

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

(If my boss asks me why I have not done my work, I will tell them because I have been explaining Equity in bullet points and she will say "ah, good work! When they buy houses, have them do it through us.")

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

this shared-ownership thing is strange to me too.

We only pay a couple of hundred more per month than the last place we rented (mortgage = $1100) and our yearly property taxes are rolled into the mortgage loan. We bought for $130k and will probably have no trouble recouping our cost, including the money we've put into renovating, when we sell as the average home price in our city is $200k.

(yes I realize these figures will seem astronomically low to many on this thread but remember, our dollar is crap and I don't live in an overcrowded urban metropolis with no space to build. hooray for western expansion!)

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:50 (eighteen years ago)

Introduce the lex to a conslutant.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:50 (eighteen years ago)

I have thought about doing the 0% switch thing a lot - it would be good bcz my interest is medium to high on the bastard credit card - but I just know I would be scatty and just not do it properly. Argh! I feel guilty and paranoid and want to check my credit card now but the website is down, stupid website.

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:51 (eighteen years ago)

The thing is, many of our conslutants are thicker (and/or drunker) than the Lex, even when he's going on about buying a house with John Wayne. Sigh.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

Credit Cards?!?!? You people throw your money away on CREDIT CARDS?!?!?!? and yet you think getting a shared mortgage is stupid? Oh, I give up!

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

I don't actually owe any money to anyone at all so I'm winning this one.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:53 (eighteen years ago)

IF YOU ARE PAYING RENT, CHANCES ARE YOU ARE PAYING SOMEONE ELSE'S MORTGAGE ANYWAY!!!

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:54 (eighteen years ago)

Yes - it's never been useful or like, saved my life when jobs ended unexpectedly or during the bad transition from failing university to finding SOMETHING to get some income in, or indeed allowed me to make large purchases that would take me loads of time to save up for - but I suppose this isn't the debate to be having! I'm annoyed I'm left with loads of money on it to pay off but that's how it goes. I've only got the one anyway.

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:55 (eighteen years ago)

i've paid off my credit card completely and don't intend to use it again

haven't even started paying off student loan though, gulp

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:55 (eighteen years ago)

Kate, are you an actuary?

― leigh, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)

Christ Kate, calm down, we're not all fiscal geniuses as you're making abundantly clear but thanks for your clarity before you start telling us we're stupid anyway - we did ask for a REASON...

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)

Please to answer my questioning on fixed-rate v variable?

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:57 (eighteen years ago)

ugly world

― RJG, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:57 (eighteen years ago)

ugly houses too!

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:59 (eighteen years ago)

gradually in about 400 years?

No, you own it all at the end of your mortgage term (20-30 years, usually) or, earlier, if you start to pay off great extra chunks of it through getting a fabulous job or all of it through some improbable windfall.

My first flat (Sept 2000) cost £130k - I put a £13k deposit down (out of savings - and back then, let me assure you, I was buying plenty of drinks in the pub) and took out a 25-yr £117k mortgage. This was during that happy period when interest rates were actually falling so my monthly repayments (which were already about £100-£150 less than my rent had been in Greenwich) kept going down - at least until late 2003. By the time I moved again (Feb 2006), I'd reduced the amount of capital I still owed on the mortgage by £14k. I'd actually shelled out about £45k (5.5 years of repayments) to do this (sharp intake of breath - most of your early repayments are interest). I sold the flat for £195k - as I still owed the bank £103k, that meant I had £92k of equity. The temptation just to rent a shack somewhere and spend the lots on Smarties is almost overwhelming, of course. If there'd been a property slump in the meantime (a la early '90s) and my flat had been valued at less than £103k, I'd have been in "negative equity".

That £92k was nibbled down to £85k by estate agents commission, solicitors fees, land search fees, stamp duty, etc and so that's what I had as a deposit on my new place. I'd love to tell you that we found an adorable little fixer-upper for £86k but, er, that's not true.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:59 (eighteen years ago)

Lex and Sarah you are both too young to worry about buying properties.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 15:59 (eighteen years ago)

You don't have to be a fiscal genius to get a mortgage - come on, someone gave TEH PINEFOX a mortgage!

I mean, I apologise for my "but this is puny earth maths!" Adric routine, but please go and read my bullet-pointed explanation of equity, I think you will find it easier to understand.

I can't answer you on the fixed rates vs. variable one, I'd have to speak to mortgage technical and they have got snooty since they moved upstairs with the good coffeemachine. A year and a half ago, I was told to get a fixed rate because everyone knew interest rates were going up (and they have, several times in the interim) but I don't know right now if this is the top and they may level off or drop again.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:01 (eighteen years ago)

I only know a couple of people under 30 who own property. One is my brother who bought a flat out near Romford, the mad bastardo. And a friend from college bought a place with his girlfriend after having bought a house with his brother before that. He's always ben quite spawny tho. I'm having trouble thinking of anyone else.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:02 (eighteen years ago)

I know! Why do I want to accumulate this useless knowledge! I know where I am for my stage in my life and am actually fairly happy with it (financially spkn)

I think it is some awful bourgeoisie thing learnt from reading THE GRUANIAD!

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:02 (eighteen years ago)

K8 - the bullet points were great, but then going "you haev credit cards, u r teh stupidzzzz" did wind me up, that was all.

Oh, doing no work this afternoon for worst reason ever...

― Sarah, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:03 (eighteen years ago)

I do know people who bought in their 20s and they are LAUGHING now - they are the people who can actually afford these stupid madmoney £400k flats in Clapham and stuff.

But you know, I spent my 20s getting drunk and pulling boys and playing in bands and not worrying about mortgages, which is as it should be. These people with their £400k flats all spent their 20s getting accounting qualifications and tedious things like that.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:05 (eighteen years ago)

I put a £13k deposit down

this has only further ignited the FEAR. £13k?!?! upfront?!?! i am entirely sure that i will NEVER have that sort of money.

i know a few people under 30 who own their own properties...a couple of couples, two people who joint-own with the local council, and one city boy.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:05 (eighteen years ago)

hehehehe :)

that was some good explainin' there kate.

the thing with shared ownership for keyworkers is none of the bvggers wanted it, so i think it's similar to housing assoc stuff, ie definitions of low income might be different to what you think...

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:05 (eighteen years ago)

Credit card debt? How about having a massive unsecured debt-consolidation (ha ha) loan AND credit card debt? How's that grab yer, eh? How d'you like them apples?

My current financial situation is just like 1997 - except negative. I blame Koogs.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:08 (eighteen years ago)

Those of you with a mortgage - make sure you check to see if your mortgage supplier is offering better deals than the one you're on to attract new customers. If they are, phone them and ask to be transferred. If you kick up a fuss and threaten to go elsewhere you just might get lucky. I've done it.

― Dr.C, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:08 (eighteen years ago)

My mother DRILLED INTO MY HEAD when I was younger, never get a credit card. Never get a credit card. I felt like a knob when I saw my mates going out and splurging on CD-buying sprees or holidays on their cards and I couldn't even hire a car. But then I did a spell working for a credit card company and REALISED how much they screw over their customers, honestly, it is such a racket. And saw a couple of my friends drive up totally absurd debts - $20-$30k of debt! - with nothing to show for it! And I was very glad of my mum's warning.

Mortgages are kind of a racket, too, but you do get something out of it at the end of it. And Mortgage Backed Securities hold up the American economy and all (I did my apprenticeship working for the only bloke in America who really understood how it all worked, Fanny Mae and Section this and that) but it would really bend your puny earth brains if I started talking about that, mwah hah hah. Next evaluation, I will ask for a gold badge for mathematical excellence.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:13 (eighteen years ago)

this has only further ignited the FEAR. £13k?!?! upfront?!?! i am entirely sure that i will NEVER have that sort of money.

Kate will know better, but I think you can get 95%+ mortgages now - they were rare in 2000 and, besides, the product I wanted (I was effectively self-employed, which cut down my options a bit) was 90% only.

Yeah, it kinda astonishes me that I ever had money like that. I wasn't alone - I'm sure there were plenty of IT contractors (some a lot wilier than me with the whole limited company scam) who rode that gravy train in the mid-late '90s and earned more money than they ever expected. Still, my time in the land of disposal income was sandwiched between two lengthy spells of unemployment and I have since re-learned to look closely at prices in the supermarket.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

I'd like to have avoided credit card debt, but I can't spirit money out of thin air unfortunately. At least I've had it on 0% for the last year and a half. If my wife hadn't got fired and we'd got pet insurance before 1 cat fell off the roof and other cat got cancer (in the space of 6 months) we wouldn't be in this mess. We have pet insurance now, thankfully just in time for surviving cat to be diagnosed as asthmatic.

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

People are able to get 120% mortgages now, which is insanity.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

You can get up to 110% mortages now! (I think - actually I need to check - I know that they do 100% and over.) the sub-prime section of the business is BOOMING.

(But this brings up a whole nother kettle of fish in terms of ethics - mortgage brokers get paid on the mortgage deal getting signed - they don't actually care if you can keep up the repayments or not, they still get the money even if you default - compliance is supposed to keep a close eye on this, but add mad London markets to a booming sub-prime business and things get murky.)

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

PET insurance?!?!? ::sputters::

For half my life, I didn't even have health insurance for myself!

Though I'm not going to go down that road for fear of offending the kittie police on ILX.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

I have six credit cards! I've bounced the debts around quite effectively so I haven't paid very much interest.

My first credit card was simply to wipe out my overdrafts - continually being within a few quid of a £30 charge AND paying interest for being in the red vs 0% for six months. It seemed to make sense. I had a new job at the time and the future seemed rosy enough to be confident I could pay it off (perhaps with one future bounce). Not the case.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

If you had vet bills of £5000 you'd get pet insurance pretty sharpish, I'd bet :(

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

I wouldn't have vet bills of £5000.

I don't have any pets. And call me an animal hating bastard, but while I was growing up and still had pets, any animal that would have needed that much in medical bills would have gone off to sing with the angels in heaven pretty quickly, thanks to my mum's thrifty theology.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

But... you know, people make choices to spend money on what's important to them. I've probably made some financial decisions that would seem like total madness to others.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:25 (eighteen years ago)

I'm 26. I want to buy. I am in a good job, have large savings and no debts. Can I afford anywhere? No. Fucking couples!

Also people bragging about no credit card? Fuck off and die thanksverymuch

― kv_nol, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

I hate people enjoying other people in uncomfortable positions. There is nothing positive in crowing.

― kv_nol, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not enjoying other people in uncomfortable situations. I'm thanking my lucky stars that I was partially lucky enough, but mostly sensible and well-advised enough not to get in such a situation myself.

I've learned from others mistakes - both those of my friends and my own father - and not repeated them. And I am very very grateful that I am in such a healthy financial situation now because of it.

If it's bragging to be grateful for one's own financial security - and this is as a single woman, I'm not half a couple, thanks very much - then guess I'm guilty in your book. There are lots of other things in my life I can't take for granted.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)

Stop going on about it then! I'm off this thread, good luck London!

― kv_nol, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:10 (eighteen years ago)

people who don't need credit cards are indeed very lucky, especially if they're homeowners

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

I dunno. I only ended up getting a credit card so I could buy some things online that wouldn't accept anything else. I guess the student overdraft rendered credit card un-necessary in my case, but the biggest thing I've ever bought has been a mere computer rather than a flat, car etc.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:15 (eighteen years ago)

Why is there such hostility towards people who don't have credit cards?

I mean, I'd think it was just the usual flack I attract for just being me, but people gave Emsk the same kind of shit for living without one, too.

This idea that they are something you "need" is mystifying. It's part of the outrageous debt culture that the US and UK are based on, but if you mention that they are a totally self perpetuating scam, then you get this kind of "ohigod, you freak" reaction in a way you don't get if you suggest the London housing market is overinflated.

I mean, yeah, my front window could fall in tomorrow, and then you'd be laughing at me because my savings wouldn't cover something that major.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)

kate i just said you were lucky! is that hostile? you yourself said the same thing. to give you an example of why i needed a credit card - i moved into an unfurnished flat. i didn't own a chair, a couch, a table, a bed - nothin. i could have survived without a credit card i guess - in a sleeping bag - but yeah, it's necessary sometimes, and not just for "emergencies." FWIW i agree with you that if you can possibly avoid using it you shouldn't.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

I was talking more about kv_nol's extreme reaction - but that's probably more a personality clash. Who knows.

The last time I moved into an unfurnished flat, well... I asked around from friends and family if anyone had any furniture, borrowed a cot while I saved up to get a futon, got a second hand sofabed after a while, then someone gave me a sofa they were throwing out. When I saved up some more money, I got a desk and a chair, then bookshelves, all these things gradually. I never did manage to get a table before I moved out - I was still using a cardboard box with a scarf thrown over it for a tablecloth.

I mean, sure, even if you don't have family in the country, there's always freecycle, Oxfam.

I guess this makes me a hippie or something.

When I was a kid and we first moved to America, I noted how much my friends' families went out to dinner, and I asked "why can't we go to Ponderosa every week?" or whatever, and my mum told me "because we can't afford it" and I would say "just put it on the credit card, like they do!" and my mum got really cross and said "you have to pay that money back eventually!"

Debt is no longer thought of as something you have to pay back eventually, it's like this thing you carry around on your back like an identity. Actually, one of the only recent times I had trouble through not having a credit card was buying a house, because it's viewed as a form of identity - I had no debt trail in the UK, therefore I didn't exist, despite having 5 years of never having gone into overdraft on my bank account. I had to get someone to notarise that I was who I said I was!

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:40 (eighteen years ago)

It's not hostility towards people who don't have credit cards, it's hostility towards people who are being preachy towards people who DO have credit cards.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:44 (eighteen years ago)

meanwhile those married couples who own their own homes continue to laugh at the rest of us.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:45 (eighteen years ago)

If anyone is misunderstanding my comedy shouting as "preachy" then well, I guess that's my fault for not labelling comedy shouting as such, even with Adric jokes.

But it's born of frustration at being inside this business.

I suppose just because people know that something is terribly bad for them doesn't stop them from doing it, or I'd be a 10 stone teatotal sylth.

― Masonic Boom, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:48 (eighteen years ago)

> My current financial situation is just like 1997 - except negative. I blame Koogs.

sorry.

i have stupid amounts of money in the building society (have about 10+k in current account gaining 0% interest because i can't remember how to transfer it to the mail only savings account) but that and 4x my wages = a shoebox in zone 7. the one time i started looking at houses i got laid off 4 weeks later. moved to london. the next time i even thought about thinking about looking at houses was the same with added relationship meltdown. was not to be, i guess.

― koogs, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 17:56 (eighteen years ago)

Looks like I'm gonna be living with my dad for a while yet. Even with savings I can't afford anything , and renting would take up about three quarters of my wages, a mortgage even more.

I don't have a credit card either, more companies seem to take Visa Electron these days. I probably have a terrible credit rating, as I tend to wait for BT to send me phone bill reminders. I should set up a direct debit.

― jel --, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:07 (eighteen years ago)

I just want to be a dilettante, without the implied vices *sigh*

― jel --, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:14 (eighteen years ago)

Earlier I said this: " I went for a variable rate instead because it worked out at least £100 a month cheaper", but I've now realised I was talking bollocks. It was probably about £25 a month cheaper at most.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:22 (eighteen years ago)

more companies seem to take Visa Electron these days.

really? i thought this was dying out. alix changed her account in the end to get a new debit card cos she was fed up with Electron being accepted in so few places.

― blueski, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:24 (eighteen years ago)

In the US, you can virtually use a bank debit card with a visa or mc logo on it anywhere.

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:25 (eighteen years ago)

Nah, Steve, loads of people take Electron these days, well at least Amazon, and ticket websites do, and most shops.

The only problem I've had recently is trying to get tickets for Lords

― jel --, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:34 (eighteen years ago)

Sam, Electron is sub Visa Debit/Maestro (MC Debit) which work everywhere. Electron and Solo are the equivalents for people on low incomes/teens/people with no or bad credit history.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:42 (eighteen years ago)

I have no idea why they are less widely accepted.

― Ed, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:42 (eighteen years ago)

*Shakes head from the comfort zone of having bought back in the 90s* I'm temping at a company that does ads for real estate developments. The money is lousy but I'm tempted to stay to see what effect the housing market turmoil has on the ads. And there is perverse amusement to be had from seeing Prince William County, VA townhouse developments advertised using images of urban hipsterism.

― j.lu, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:46 (eighteen years ago)

Something to do with needing additional security (shouldn't be used somewhere you can't sign/enter your PIN), probably because they only give them out to people who are shite with money (like, for example, me).

― ailsa, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:47 (eighteen years ago)

I wonder what my "credit history" is like

― RJG, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:50 (eighteen years ago)

you can find out! It is only £2 or something. Or you could apply for a credit card and see what they give you.

(I've just managed to get a £100 overdraft facility for the first time in four years, yay me)

― ailsa, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 18:53 (eighteen years ago)

This thread is like a flashback to late 1980s dinner party.

― Bob Six, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 19:05 (eighteen years ago)

Ha, yeah. Not that I was there. That said, this thread has been a lot more interesting than I expected. I've heard a lot of talk from people at work lately about how crazy the market is (houses selling within hours of being put on the market for over the asking price etc etc), but I'm still optimistic that I'll be able to buy in London if/when I want to, all evidence to the contrary. I guess the fact that my sister (single, aged 25, no parental help with the deposit) managed to buy a flat in zone 2 last summer for about £160k made me realise that it isn't impossible yet, anyway.

Also I look forward to looking at the arithmetic of different mortgages - how do you generally choose between them? Speculation as to what interest rates are going to do, I guess?

― toby, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 23:02 (eighteen years ago)

This is the thread where we speak like our grandparents

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 22 March 2007 11:11 (eighteen years ago)

there were some really nice places around for 160 last summer i imagine!

― 600, Thursday, 22 March 2007 12:03 (eighteen years ago)

yeah toby from what 600 is saying, last summer was another era

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 22 March 2007 13:22 (eighteen years ago)

gah i remember hearing people in 2003 going "ooh better sell quick, there's talk of a cool-down"

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 22 March 2007 13:30 (eighteen years ago)

This thread is like a flashback to late 1980s dinner party.

But now the property bores are the people who don't have any! (I guess because it's just a given that your flat has gone up by x, or because you are so fucked because you overextended yourself on the mortgage that the increase in your equity doesn't really make you feel good)

― Jamie T Smith, Thursday, 22 March 2007 13:33 (eighteen years ago)

Also I look forward to looking at the arithmetic of different mortgages

that's our toby!

- how do you generally choose between them?

you ask yr friendly independant financial advisor (we have one, if anyone wants his number, he's very good, just don't use the conveyancing firm they recommend)

Speculation as to what interest rates are going to do, I guess?
we're in a bind at the mo, cos will probably sell to get a 2 bed in the next year, so we can't get a decent deal cos they all have min 2 year tie-ins. i still think (entirely gut-related, without much evidence) that rates will go up a bit more before levelling out...

― CarsmileSteve, Thursday, 22 March 2007 13:42 (eighteen years ago)

I'm pretty sure that you can take the mortgage with you if you move in the tie-in period.....Worth asking about, anyway. We definitely can with our ten year fixed.

― Vicky, Thursday, 22 March 2007 13:44 (eighteen years ago)

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