dr who 3 - the ice warriors cometh

1) As soon as the woman had had the kittens, Father Dougal ("...and his head swelled to 50ft" was clearly supposed to be said to Ted") could have entered the Fast Lane surely?
2) How did ForgetGirl's parents get into the Fast Lane so quickly when there was only two of them? Also they didn't seem to have been gone very long, so how did they get any distance?
3) RTD's sums for distance were complete rubbidge. Father Dougal complains that he only gets 20yds in one go and that it's a slow day. It's apparently taken them 12 years to get 15 miles. If they "only" did 20yds a day that would be 50 MILES. GET ONE CALCULATOR.

They do write the script

Well, it isn't possible with the current scripting style. I do think Tennant would be up to it. At the moment, it seems to be a few minutes of comedy followed by Tennant shouting at one particular individual and wave of the sonic screwdriver. I'd love to see something dark, played without mugging or special effects, perhaps even underplayed a little. I'm not sure RTD is ever going to do that, though.

This week's monsters appear to be blokes in gasmasks and gardening gloves - old school Who values return!

i'm getting ridiculously excited about John Simm as Saxon. This week's episode was pretty good, i thought. judging from the teaser for next week, they seem keen to put the good doctor into a lot of pain.

According to H, who is very much a Whovian, next week's episode (and the week after, I think) are adapted from a Seventh Doctor (and Ace) novel.

Nah, it's the Seventh Doctor and Bernie. But yes, the two eps are based on Paul Cornell's NA 'Human Nature'.

Unfortunately this puts RTD in a canon quandary. He's got Cornell to rewrite this for TV, and now it's with a different Doctor. Which means 'Human Nature' can't be canon. But RTD has said before the content of some books (like Romana escaping from e-Space, for example) is canon. Which means he's picking and choosing what bits of the show's history to put in, and which bits to ignore because he doesn't like them. DANGER WILL ROBINSON!

Anyway, tonight's episode: quite enjoyed the episode itself, as Soukesian says ^^^ it had a nice old school Who feel about it. (Even if it was RTD's homage to 24, of which bizarrely he thinks Season 5 is one of the best series ever.)

However... sentient planet seeking revenge because of the ecological damage being done to it "oh, you humans, always hurting the environment" HI DERE I AM THE SUN U GONNA GET RAPED was utter WANK. Similarly, Doctor in trouble "I'm scared" saved by companion who is cleverer than him WANK.

of which bizarrely he thinks Season 5 is one of the best series ever

this is pretty std amon most 24 fans i think - i know i thought it was a high point. the drop from that into this recent series is all the more dramatic for it. sun revenge was fine, doc resuce companion, companion rescue doc was fine. but the whole ep was a bit rub just for sort of going on a bit. pace and look was too 'pat' for the genre of spaceship story.

CURSE THE BBCODE

I thought it was best ep of the season so far! And put me very much in mind of Sunshine teh movie. Although considering the best thing about Sunshine was the photography and sound effects and worst was the ridiculous plot, and this obviously had a more ridiculous plot and totally bog-standard effects - well it should have been rubb. But I bought it. I think having the Doctor trying to save just a handful of folks on a ship, and not a whole city/planet/entire human race is a good thing.

Doctor in trouble "I'm scared" saved by companion who is cleverer than him

He pretty much told her what to do didn't he? Both with the stasis chamber and with the fuel venting. And having The Doctor - especially this Doctor - scared is a hugely welcome change from his usual egocentric invincibility.

It was alright. I Fear my recent Hartnell/Troughton/Pertwee marathons are turning me into what used to annoy me the most, ie an 'old Who is better' snob. I never really noticed before getting properly into the old stuff how gratingly high the emotional valves are turned all the time in the new series - Pertwee in particular was magnificently unflappable, and with Tennent it's all eye-boggling and shouting.

The Martha honeymoon is coming to an end for me as well - she's getting kind of shrill, and her mum is AWFUL. For all the complaints of Rose's family featuring too much, at least Jackie was a decent character.

Anyway, shouldn't complain too much, I'm still very glad something as quirky and fun is on the telly, and I will continue to watch religiously. The Saxon stuff is shaping up to be nicely ominous, and the scarecrows next week look good and scary.

I was barely paying attention to this but it was nice to see Daft Punk in a dramatic role.

It's also occurred to me that in possibly every episode I've seen of this show this season the Dr. literally offers himself up for destruction at the hands of an alien enemy and in this one, like the others, he lucks out at the last second, and his life is spared.

I didn't think he offered himself up to bitter moany Gigyas sun so much as 'oops, looked at it too much, now I am evil parasite.' What detail did I miss? The dogs kept playing in front of the tv.

Annoying, boring and almost as bad as Lazarus :(

Abbott he stepped right in front of one of the Daft Punk dudes, got up right in his face, their noses almost touching, and he's like "but I want to know WHAT.. YOU.. ARE..", the creature raises his hand up to his deadly visor .. and then suddenly comes down with a case of gastrointestinal cramps or something

I do like the fact that the Saxonnards have so far been listed in the credits as "Sinister Man" and "Sinister Woman"

sinister woman was izzy off hollyoaks. not that i watch hollyoaks. just i recognized the name elize du toit.

yeh i knew the name instantly but took a few moments to remember how!

is this how?

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h153/vngallery3/Elize_du_Toit3.jpg

oh dear, we are now entering calum country.

She'd get a bit of C-Man loving etc etc

that was not how

no, of course not. was this how?

http://www.theladsmag.co.uk/maxim/aug02/pix/cover_sm.jpg

I thought that was a terrible episode. Everyone should have been dead dead dead five minutes in to it. Michelle Collins should have been so kick ass, yet she just spent the whole episode running around like an idiot and whining about her husband, who she refused to let anyone kill, even though he was possessed and she was quite happy to kill the other possessed dude. And there was far too much standing around having a chat in situations where speed was required. It was almost like the Da Vinci Code. Run a bit, explain a bit, run a bit, explain a bit more.

Dude! That episode was great! Scarey-ass scarecrows!

that's the stuff! oh yeah.

That was really rather good - felt almost like a Historical - and I can't see how they're going to get from the cliffhanger to the 'Coming Next' events at all.

Line 4 of 'To Be A Pilgrim' = "follow The Master"

Boo for making Paul McGann canon.

I artfully sidestepped the "Coming Next" bit.

That was a bit of a weird jolt. It was a lot more like old-who that I've seen for a while, lots of exposition and build-up without very much actually happening at all. After a while I just wanted them to get on with it and rip shit up, but I'm sure that's just cos I'm used to the faster pace now. If all that nonsense is in pt2 I'll be a happy man.

Real doctor hiding in a pocket watch was a bit weird tho. Why didn't he just give the watch to Martha instead of carrying it around himself? lols at the watch having the same voice as the One Ring To Rule Them All.

great episode, best of the series for me. scarecrows were classic Who and under-used perhaps to i quite like that they weren't really explained at all just thrown in. i think there should be more two-parters, it really seems to help the pace.

Good stuff, and great that it wasn't wrapped up in an hour. "Superhero becomes human" is a bit of an old one, but I suppose it's new to Who.

Multiple cheers for Jessica Stevenson! And the low budget bad guys are far far better than the CGI lumps.

Or Jessica Hynes, as she was actually credited.

Why didn't he just give the watch to Martha instead of carrying it around himself?

I thought this too, but Mister M reckoned that if Mr. Smith knows that the watch is his, then Martha couldn't risk being accused of stealing it, and also if it is his essence that's in the watch, probably better it stays with him. Shame it wasn't encoded with some I AM YOUR MOST PRECIOUS POSSESSION binding spell, or similar, but still.

I just loved this episode.

Well why not just keep the watch safely in the TARDIS? But to hell with nitpicking, what a lovely episode all round.
Apart from the couple of duff episodes in the past few weeks, I'm really enjoying this series. It must be one of the strongest in Who history.

It must be one of the strongest in Who history.

That's not nearly halfway to close, but it was better than the last series. If it maintains the momentum it currently has, it'll rank as highly as any McCoy series, probably.

That was the best episode I've seen for ages. Suspense, special effects underplayed, and wonderfully eerie villains. Tennant nought to furious in sixty seconds kept to a minimum. This is why I used to love Doctor Who. More like this, less comedy, please!

If it maintains the momentum it currently has, it'll rank as highly as any McCoy series, probably.

Saucer of milk, table twelve.

The pining Martha-wuv actually had a point this time, but God, get over Rose already. How come he "remembered" her, but not Martha, eh? EH?

Well, in fairness he did say that Martha was in the dreams as well.

Oh aye, so he did. Still, you'd think he'd be a bit less inclined to throw her out. Ach, small quibbles, it was a pretty good episode, the best one so far this series.

This was the best episode since The Girl In The Fireplace - proof that doing something other than the 'turn up, notice something's wrong, see aliens, run down corridors for a while, flick switch that kills them all' really works.

I am actually intrigued as to what happens next week, which is the first time I've thought that in forever.

loved this episode so much (except the whole having to wait until next week thing)

Great, easily the best of the series so far (with Gridlock in second place). Tennant gave his best and most restrained performance to date and Freema was pretty good as well. I'm most intrigued to see how that WWI flash-forward ties into things.

I had kind of started giving up on Who, missing the second Daleks one and the sun one the previous week, but was told that this one would be good. It was! So pleased to see them do historical ones without cheesy famous people. Almost as good as the Steven Moffat ones (who writes the one after next week's - whoop!). Really atmospheric, sad tone to it all.

Jessica Hynes (she's taken her husband's name) just AMAZING. She totally made the episode. Best performance I can remember seeing in Dr Who.

8080

okay so the boy... is he another time lord maybe?? who doesn't know what he is?? b/c we've seen him before, right?
(i am not reading any forums or whatever, no time no patience)

there was something in this about the Doctor having a son (wanting to?) - tho this may not match his 'i was a Dad once' comment from the last series.

Kid = the annoying wee Liam-Neeson-spawn from Love Actually. I've seen him in something else recently that's not on his imdb entry - it's not an earlier ep of Doctor Who, is it?

stupid gripe but they really needed an establishing shot of the first scarecrows. we saw it up close immediately which meant suspense was lost. a nice long shot of it on the horizon also showing us where the action was happening would have been nice, this was when the fella with the mustache got got. as i said stupid gripe.

Kid = the annoying wee Liam-Neeson-spawn from Love Actually. I've seen him in something else recently that's not on his imdb entry - it's not an earlier ep of Doctor Who, is it?

I don't know. I recognized him immediately, and it's unlikely to have been from Love Actually, which I only saw once, ages ago. I suspect him of being in an ad. They don't put those on IMDB, annoyingly.

That's what I mean - I remember seeing him in something else and looking him up and going "oh yeah, I remember him from Love Actually". But I don't think I've seen him in anything that's on imdb.

It has to be an ad. In my case it can't be a music video because I don't watch them any more.

No, I'm convinced it was a TV show (I can't remember the last music video I saw). His name's Thomas Sangster, and googling reveals nothing.

He does thave that look of the Kes child about him.

The kid was in Nanny McPhee, which I'm SURE you've all seen.

I haven't seen it, but I have seen the posters and ads for it, which could be where I know him from.

Like Ailsa, I have been googling him, but I feel a little uncomfortable looking at his fansites, so I stopped quite quickly.

I haven't seen Nanny McPhee. It's definitely not that.

He's just got one of those faces, maybe - anyway, he was great and Baines (sp) properly creepy as well. I'm unfeasibly excited about part two.

No, I already said, I distinctly remember seeing him in something else and looking him up.

Anyway, according to the Sun on Saturday, Freema and her weird thighs are leaving. Not according to anyone else though.

Yeah, just Googlied and the following day the report was rubbished by RTD.

the kid played a young hitler! good dr who training that.

nobody's mentioned kylie minogue yet...

episode better than recent one (42 minutes until you collide with the sun, huh? wouldn't an actual collision be the least of your troubles that close to a sun?).

scary scarecrows = so old.

old maybe but it made a nice change from CGI and gave me a bigger 'old Who' rush more than anything else in the last 3 series.

The first shot of the scarecrow waving its arm was classic MR James style creepiness.

it would have been great if the scarecrows had the demonic warcry of "CUP OF TEA AND A SLICE OF CAKE... CUP OF TEA AND A SLICE OF CAKE... WHERE DID I PUT MY CHILD-DEVOURING HEAD"

ETC

http://epguides.com/WorzelGummidge/cast.jpg

That should be on the thread for images that disturbed you as a child. And I wasn't even that young when Worzel was around.

God, the way he used to smack his non-existent lips together. Euccch.

The BBC's actual denial of the Freema story tells more than it possibly intends to. "It is absolute rubbish that Freema Agyeman has been axed or sacked from Doctor Who. However we do not comment on future storylines." All that says is that she hasn't been sacked, not that she isn't leaving. In fact, it's plausible to infer from it that she definitely is - a more sensible PR line would be something about how she's a valued and liked cast member, or how she plays a major part in the direction the show is going and it's hoped she'll stay around for a long time, something like that.

On the young boy, he was in a CBBC show called Feather Boy. Which, incidentally is an anagram of Father y Boe, and Doctor Who is made by BBC Wales... also the character he plays is called Timothy Dean in the book, which was changed to Timothy Latimer for the TV. Which is an anagram of The Immortality. Seems to be a big coincidence unless we assume the name was changed for absolutely no reason.

I take it we all spotted it was Derek Jacobi's voice that came out of the watch, clearly implying The Professor has some connection with The Doctor already.

Dude, you are nerdier than ME! :)

(I squeaked at drawing of lovely Wiggy McGann)

they've really handled Martha badly in my view. from 'i don't do aliens' sass in the first episode 'oh why did he have to fall in love with a human that wasn't meeeeee - yeh that's right he hasn't told me about Madame Pompadour either blub blub'. should've made her gay!

Haha, the companion in the book was b1sexual!

i wiggled at the pic of mcgann and sed 'ha, the internet explodes' or something like that

Long and boring argument on the Guardian Dr Who thread about how that affects McGann's canonicity etc.

Derek Jacobi wasn't one of the voices coming from the watch, apparently. The sound editor posted the entire transcript for the watch on Outpost Gallifrey. It's quite interesting.

"There are 3 voices in total for the watches. One of them is of course David. The other two are crowd artists that I use. I will post the scripts up on the website as soon as I can find them Actually here they are I just found them

"THE DOCTOR: Space...and Time... Eternity and infinity within the Vortex. The secret lies within, I'm trapped,
I'm caged inside the cold and the metal and the dark, but waiting, always waiting. Contained, encircled, enclosed,
the neverending circle goes round and round and round. Awaiting release. The power within, the power of a
Time Lord, such a precious prize, protect me. I will return. I am returning, even now. And the Human will fall.

WOMAN: The Family is coming, the Family has picked up the scent, the time is not right... Timothy. Timothy?
Hide us, hide me, hide it from harm. You have been chosen, boy. You stand as protector, against the dark and
the cold, reach out, boy, reach out with your mind...

WISE MAN: Gallifrey, in the constellation of Kasterborous, galactic coordinates ten zero eleven zero-zero by zero
two from galactic zero centre. There stood the Citadel, before the fall, before the Last Great War of Time itself,
home of the mighty Panopticon. All gone now, all fallen into dust. Gaatoms on the solar winds... "

'THE DOCTOR: Time Lord. You are not alone...

WOMAN: Shine with the light and the power and the majesty, the light of time and space and infinite fire, burn
with the light, burn and turn, accept its wisdom

WISE MAN: The children of Skaro and Cybernetic men made manifest, the blood and fire of the Racnoss Empire,
slaughtered in the Great Purge of the Fledgeling Wars, flesh and bone of the Sycoraxic clan... "

"THE DOCTOR: Keep me hidden, keep me away from the false and empty man, the danger is coming, the
danger is so close, hold me tight, keep me close and quiet and safe...

WOMAN: Darkness is coming, darkness is so close, they walk upon the Earth with the faces of men and women
and children but their hearts are so old, so cold...

WISE MAN: This is the last of Gallifrey, the last of the Time Lords, the last of that wise and ancient race... "

Regards

Paul McFadden
Supervising Sound Editor
Doctor Who

Though he doesn't say exactly who plays the Wise Man.

neat!

Yes, that'll be the same production crew who failed to keep secret Ecclescake leaving, Billie leaving or (it appears) Freema leaving.

The key bit is "doesn't say who plays the Wise Man" (your capitalisation).

The bit I thought was Jacobi was 'THE DOCTOR: Time Lord. You are not alone..." - either Tennant is deliberately trying to sound like Clavdivs or it isn't him.

Seriously, this episode really pissed me off. IF Tennant doctor is a generally pro-human, ethical, witty jovial guy, why is he such a damned asshole as a human. AND why not keep after the fucking watch? And all the green glowy plus walking scarecrows is srsly straight out of the made-for-tv movie of Steven King's Tommyknockers.

WHY DO THEY HAVE EVEN A DE-TIMELORDIZING SET OF HEADPHONES IN THE TARDIS?

haha i thought of the tommyknockers too!
and i also thought, why couldn't he have built in the idea that the watch was, like, his great-grandfather's and therefore must be kept safe? i'm not sure where his human characterization came from, yeah - but maybe it just fits for the time/place

i also thought: yaay dr who tv show, you are good!

WHY DO THEY HAVE EVEN A DE-TIMELORDIZING SET OF HEADPHONES IN THE TARDIS?

In case the Doctor needs to hide from someone who's bumping off timelords of course! Jeez.

there's never an episode that EVERYBODY loves. the headphones thing did seem particularly silly tho yeh. never saw the tommyknockers - younger viewers won't have either. was he really that assholish as a human tho?

funny this episode reminds ppl of stephen king, the writer's previous ep (father's day) was the one that reminded ppl of the Langoliers.

Oh, I didn't realise he did Father's Day too - I think that was my favourite of the first series after The Empty Child/Doctor Dances.

Agree with everyone that the watch thing was totally lame. And the scarecrows weren't that great.

He wasn't assholish at all as a human.

His casual authorising of the beating was kind of jarring, but I suppose that's how a teacher of the time would act.

yeah that's exactly what i figured too

He wasn't an asshole at all. Plus maybe, (and of course if you have to find ways to explain it to yourself, then you have to wonder why it wasn't in the script) he could only hold an attachment to one thing, and he held the attachment to Martha instead of the watch. Which kind of shows what's wrong/different about nu-Who. An earlier Doctor would have saved himself first because companion would be fucked anyway if anything happened to him. David T. is too sentimental.

The scarecrows were totally scary! What is wrong with you?

(NB, Mister M has told me that in the interest of full disclosure I should admit that dioramas of any kind, and some shop mannequins, are also scary to me, so my opinion may not count for much here.)

OKAY, even if it's typical for the time, being a beating mercenary still isn't in character IMO. Maybe like SOME doctors, but not Tennant doctor. And he doesn't seem especially attached to Martha anyway! And I know UKers wldn't be familiar w/the Tommyknockers movie, admittedly. I didn't hate the episode, but I've woken up every morning since Saturday thinking about this, which is giving me the weirds.

Him not being especially attached to Martha is one of the problems we're all having trouble with this series. He's supposed to be really attached to her. Other characters keep talking about how they appear to be a couple, and she keeps whining about how she sometimes thinks he likes her, but then he seems not to. We seem to be the only ones who think it's implausible.

You and I, or the general audience?

It's to emphasise that he is not the doctor, everything about him that is the doctor is in the watch, occasionally breaking through into his dreams.

the beating that is

xpost: The folks on this thread. I haven't read any other blogs or newspaper articles or anything about this series, so I don't know if it's a general perception. Although if she's talking about leaving, maybe it is.

"I left the show because the Doctor didn't wuv me enough"

I quite enjoy Martha's "he's so dreamy - why doesn't he notice me?" schoolgirl crush thing. Or I don't really mind it.
But then I'm not overly nitpicky like ilx0rz.

The Sun were also once rumour-mongering that Tennant was to QUIT during this series.
xp

It's more than Tennant might not be available for filming for the whole series, not that he's actually quitting (and it's the next series that that's being talked about for, and it's not confirmed, AFAIK)

more THAT, not than.

Tennant won't do another series.

how can you say that so confidently? he's putting on a good show if he's rly fed up with it

Tennant has confirmed he will appear in Season 30/Nu-Who 4, but will he appear as The Doctor or outside of flashback? (Personally, I think he's staying for most, if not all of the series.)

No other show fails to keep it's lead cast members like this or at least spark rumours ever week that they're leaving. For a show with just two main recurring characters every week the X-Files managed several years before talk of them leaving. Maybe it's just the nature of the characters themselves (one more easily changeable, the other quite easily replaceable) that enables this. Still annoying tho.

re: the doctor and martha and attachment - it would seem he's deliberately trying not to be attached b/c he got too attached to rose and it affected him too deeply. i was talking with a friend yesterday with a hueg dr. who knowledge base about continuity in different doctor regenerations and why his outfits/fashion-sense could be so different yet he still remained 'the doctor' (i know it's a convention of the show as a tv show, but was trying to understand it in terms of character, etc) - and my friend's answer was so simple: the doctor changes with life experiences and a regeneration is perhaps the most tangible proof/self-realization of that. not a revelation really but i thought it was nice/reassuring.

also: it is time for the doctor to have more than one companion. i am in favour of the creepy little boy coming on board.

Well he'll be getting a second companion again when Captain Jack comes back.

I hope you slapped your thigh and said rrrufff when you said Captain Jack's name. It is the done thing.

i don't enough abt captain jack - maybe i should've watched more than 4 eps of 'torchwood', or not watched it at all... it has taken the rrrufff away :/

more than one companion for 3 or 4 eps in a row or something wld also be fine

'enough'?
i meant - i don't 'know' abt captain jack'

the little bit of troughton dr who on the 'kids tv in the 60s' thing on bbc4 was great. the mind robber (specifically the first thx-1138-alike episode).

also, kylie minogue. is she the biggest star ever to guest?

Are you dissing Beryl Reid?

(was expecting new bonnie langford answers, but i guess she was companion rather than a guest)

I am posting this here, before I post it to the LOLWHO thread on OG, because IT IS MINE.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/aldo_cowpat/jaggaroth.jpg

true? http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/06/01/doctor-who-to-end-in-2008

yeah but http://www.gallifreyone.com/news.php#newsitemEElpyklAlltVZzVpsm

(a friend sent me these rumour links this morning and i was like why are you doing this to me in the morning dude)

What, and RTD doesn't trust anyone else not to fuck it up? What a cock. (Of course this could be rubbish)

Why does it have to end just because Russell T. doesn't want to do it any more? He doesn't own Dr. Who. He is, if you will, not the boss of Dr. Who.

personally, i wouldn't mind seeing some new blood. then again, i think it could very easily go the wrong way.

It's totally time for a change. Thumbs up RTD for bringing it back and initially making a decent job of it, thumbs down for the smug backslapping fest it has become.

ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

yeah i can't imagine the whole series ending next year, srsly now, but i can imagine rtd not being there and am fine with that
xpost
hugs

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

those last three posts and this was my impression of The Doctor during the last 4 episodes. poor him, seems to be in a lot of pain, a lot

xpost

There's no way Dr Who will end even if RTD does leave. It's too popular a franchise and also Davies is too fond of it to let it just disappear again after his departure.

If you think about, the BBC owns the rights and they're sitting on a cash cow. RTD doesn't have the power to put an end to it.

xpost - like Matt says

i think moving it to Autumn/Winter is a good idea so it could have an extended break before the fifth new series - whether RTD leaves or stays.

Also it is more frightening on dark Winter nights!

This rumour has been around for about a year. The thing that gives it a lot of credence is that RTD's best mates are Phil Collinson and Julie Gardner and both of them have said they couldn't imagine being attached to the programme if he wasn't there, as have many others. So, do you end up in a JNT blackmail position to keep him on, can it all together or try and salvage what's left with an entirely new back room? Given Julie is now Head of Drama itself, I'd suggest she might think that was a huge, huge risk. Unfortunately it's what happens when you pack a show with your mates.

Something else to take into consideration is that the recent BBC press releases now appear to have the official title of the series as "Russell T Davies' Doctor Who", which might give other clues to what might happen if he leaves...

Oh, and from the last DWM was an interesting story about where the BBC priorities lie... James Hawes wanted to spend a weekend in NY to do some establishing for the dalek episodes. The BBC graciously let him spend two nights and take a photographer for some shots for The Mill to use. Doctor Who Confidential decided to cover this location visit specially and were allowed to take a team of 8 production staff and three cameramen for a week.

i have no idea what that last paragraph means

It means the BBC is full of clueless buffoons.

Ooh, scare story!
It wasn't RTD's idea or decision to bring back Dr Who though, remember? He was just hired after Jane Tranter told Julie Gardener she was thinking of reviving it.
He has since become inextricibly linked with it, and it's certainly expensive to make, but it seems unlikely the Beeb will want to give it up now that it's a nailed-on Sat night ratings winner and flagship prog etc etc. whatevs.

Also, has the BBC got *anything* else with that kind of grip on the 7-10 year old audience? Pretty much every single kid my wife teaches watches it and several are obsessed.

haha it kinda makes even me feel like an obsessed 8 yr old!

Me too. And in my case that always depends on the actor playing the Doctor. If I don't like him (which doesn't always mean "like" him) then I won't watch it. The man or woman behind the curtain is of little consequence to me. I hope they don't ditch it if RTD goes.

yeah, it took a few episodes but i totally adore david tennant

xpost to myself: But wait, that's a stupid thing to say. Obviously it depends on the writers as well, you stupid woman. Obviously whether you like the actor or not also depends on the writers. Clearly.

I think I might have been out in the sun too long today.

haha
i wld just watch all this dr whos regardless

Tennant's a potentially terrific Doctor, and essentially a very likable actor, the writers and directors just need to tone him down a bit.

He's been much much better this season. I've only watched up to ep 5, but the stories seem a lot better too.

That was fantastic, best nu-Who yet by a mile - I welled up totally when Mr Smith was staring death in the face like that. Latimer would have made a good companion I think - a child companion would be awesome if done right.

Next week's could be potentially great as well, and then we get Captain Jack back, so the rest of the series could be pretty solid after a shaky start.

the teasers seem to be getting more and more bleak. I know the writer is Moffatt, but what is it actually about? Is it going to be filler? Or a quality stand-alone?

i should have said 'vague' instead of 'bleak'. don't know what that was all about.

Supposedly it's this year's equivalent of "Love And Monsters" - not much Doctor + companion in it, to give the leads something of a break in the filming schedule.

Anyway that was sort of the ultimate nu-Who, in that *all* the themes nu-Who stresses - can the Doctor love, inhumanity of Doctor, Doctor-companion relationship, Doctor's love of humankind, Doctor as lonely god - were there but fully harmonised with the story and plot. Dunno if it's my absolute favourite new series story but it's up there.

yeah, i should have mentioned that this two parter has been excellent. Tennant did a fine job as well.

Excellent. I preferred last weeks to this, tbh, but then I like build-ups more than resolutions.

Baines guy's "do you want this fight sir, do you want it, do you sir" was *so* Fast Show Suits You Sir that I couldn't take it entirely seriously.

Still, best ones since The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances. Tennant still gurning too much, but much more effectively. The ending was lovely too - I like when people remember the effect the Doctor tangentially had on their lives.

I enjoyed it. Did prefer last weeks too but I enjoyed the ending a lot.

enjoyed the really cruel dispatching of the family.

Sorry to burst your bubbles, people, but I was playing pool in our common-room today as a load of people (mostly science nerds) watched today's Dr. Who, and I couldn't help noticing that it was one of the most desperately, utterly awful pieces of television I'd ever seen. In order of direness, I think it went something along the lines of special effects >>> camerawork >>> music >>> directing >>> acting >>> script, but the whole thing stank to high heaven. Me and my friend were having to stifle our laughter at the absolute hopelessness of it all. Everyone sounded like 1930's RP-speaking twits, schoolteachers and headmasters spoke and acted like an American stereotype of Tom Brown's Schooldays, the dialogue was bombastic without eloquence (and therefore laughable), and the whole thing just came across as a nerdy, exploitative, pointless exercise in dumbness. Best bit? When I overheard some man speaking in ever-so portentous tones "She is trapped in a mirror...in EVERY mirror! You shall see her in you!"

I'm not ashamed to say I audibly cracked up at that point, as the rapt audience stared on in hushed admiration and excitement at this doubtless highly dramatic juncture.

Ah, I've found the aptest word for that episode of television: 'craven'.

Maybe I just don't 'understand' it, though. As it was clearly the second of a two-parter, there were probably loads of really neat emotional hooks I couldn't grasp. Perhaps the dialogue is just something you need to get used to, the acting highly-tuned to push unusual buttons. Golly, it might well be brilliant for all I know!

Louis this is the first time I've understood why people don't like you.

Because I don't like something you like? Heaven help us all. I've explained why I don't think Dr. Who is very good, so instead of taking cheap shots at my character, why not defend your show?

No, no, that's nothing to do with it. Plenty of people on here don't like Doctor Who.

But you're right that it was a cheap shot - sorry.

Aha: Anyway that was sort of the ultimate nu-Who, in that *all* the themes nu-Who stresses - can the Doctor love, inhumanity of Doctor, Doctor-companion relationship, Doctor's love of humankind, Doctor as lonely god - were there but fully harmonised with the story and plot. Dunno if it's my absolute favourite new series story but it's up there.

Maybe I'd need to watch it in more detail to realise these things. As I say, the evidence against comes from a judgement based upon the first viewing of an unseen show. I didn't know anything about the characters; perhaps a greater knowledge would have equipped me better and prevented my mocking. Still, I can only go on what I saw, and what I saw was to my eyes risible.

You know who the target audience is, right?

mostly science nerds

amirite

Gah, maybe I should loosen up and accept that for some it's very entertaining, a quality piece of not-too-serious light entertainment. By the straight faces of the 'target audience', mind, it seems that it really was being taken quite seriously!

Actually the target audience is families - young children watching with their parents. The show has a fair number of nerdy fans too, of course, but it stopped catering to them a good many years ago. "Science nerds" is off the mark (for one thing the "science" in Who is notoriously bad), but I appreciate that while you're at Uni it's reassuring to think in those kinds of terms.

For the sake of balance I should say that my wife thought this episode was heavy-handed and a poor resolution to last week's story.

Well, most of those watching were of the nerdy scientist variety. You're right, though, I oughtn't use a single piece of evidence as stereotype. I accept that it could provide stimulating family viewing (although I still think it was as your wife says very 'heavy-handed', badly written and clumsily acted). I don't have a problem with bad science in entertainment, but I don't like it when I hear someone speaking a patronising load of gunk in an affected RP accent. It grates somewhat.

The mirror thing reminded me a bit of the kid in Matilda who got trapped in the painting, that always seemed eerie to me when I was a kid and I can see kids remembering this the same way. And kids don't read Evelyn Waugh, they're not after some flowery dialogue about public schools, the things about public schools that you saw as stereotypes are what they'll recognise the most easily. Simple language isn't a bad thing anyway, even if you're writing for people older than 8.

I know it's not just a kids show, but it does need to be written with them in mind the most.

xpost

Again with the acting, kids don't pick up on facial expressions as well as adults, they need the melodrama to get the point across. I'm not sure it can be bad if it's on purpose, even if it is a bit over the top.

It reminded me a bit of the even-worse 'Robin Hood' that the BBC attempted recently. Same kind of PC, disinfected, portentous vibe going on. Probably quite a few of the same actors too.

If it's written with 8 year-olds in mind, then fair enough. I think my expectations were perverted somewhat by the unironic appreciation it received from a load of 20 year-olds.

Nothing wrong with a bit of ham, but this was neutered ham, it was ridiculous whilst trying to look serious, and thus yet more ridiculous, in a bad way.

I've just realised it was The Witches, not Matilda

I was thinking Superman II, myself. :-D

(and the very beginning of Superman I, obv.)

In fairness the affected RP accents are because the episode was set in a public school in 1913.

xpost

Anyway, I enjoyed it, having only liked The Empty Child and Girl in the Fireplace previously. Doctor Who seems to do time travel much better than space travel. I didn't feel patronised. But hey, I'm thick.

It is written for 8 year olds primarily, but if you can get over the things that are exaggerated for them there's a lot for adults too. That's why your mates liked it, you just need to put those things to the back of your mind rather than focus on them and consider them mistakes, or bad acting.

set in a public school in 1913

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have spoken like that, even back then in the good old days.

V, fair enough. I'll stop my slating. Prejudice is bad, and I ought to let people enjoy whatever they want. However, my subjective opinions keep on spewing out of my mouth! I can't help it. Sorry.

Did anyone else spot quite a few similarities to season 5 Angel too? The Doctor giving them their wish of living forever but with the twist of never being able to do anything was a bit like the Purvayne episode, and there were some bits of Illyria in the way that the people were possessed ("Her body and soul were consumed" and the way that the mother could access Jenny's memories).

Who is a family show, rather than purely a kids' show, which means that at its most successful it's presenting entertainment that children can understand and thrill to (and which adults can thrill to on the same level) but which can bear whatever added weight its adult audience brings to it without compromising its simplicity*. The best new Who, I think, does this better than anything else I can think of - the worst of it manages to pander to kids and frustrate grown-ups.

*this is also what a lot of great pop does for a slightly older audience.

maybe I just need to listen to more teenpop

:-|

I was thinking of ABBA, rather than teenpop, actually!

Good, that's a lot more like what I can stomach. Quite a lot of Abba is very, very good, in fact! Maybe to approach Dr. Who in a similar manner would divest me of my cynicism somewhat, although I still wouldn't be able to get past the dialogue.

Louis you know how you think Mansun's 'Six' is a heartrending work of visionary genius and everyone else thinks its a load of old cobblers? This is a bit like that.

at times like this i'm really glad Doctor Who wasn't on during my adolescence and most of my 20s. it's almost as if they knew...

xpost to Matt: Yeah, I accept that. I don't mind it when people violently disagree with me (as long as they provide a reason; "it just doesn't do it for me" usually suffices), and I don't expect them to mind when I challenge their beliefs.

My boyfirend requested I post thi here under a...pseudonym?...because he "will get his ass flamed off on fanboy central" otherwise. BOUT he won't see if you do here so whatevs.

"Human Nature" by Dr. Retarded

THE DR: OMG Martha some kind of green gaseous hive mind is following us!
MARTHA: Why don't you just zap the TARDIS into their ship and fuck their shit up?
DR: No Martha that would make way too much sense! Here, I'm going to lose them by changing myself into a human using this transmogrifier that happens to be on the TARDIS for no particular reason which I've never mentioned before in 900 years of adventuring.
MARTHA: But what am I supposed to do?
DR: I don't have time to explain, but I apparently had time to taperecord about 4 hours of instructions you won't be able to follow because I'll be a stupid unpredictable human!!
MARTHA: How are you supposed to change back?!
DR: Here I've put my soul into a clock that I want you to keep laying around in my office instead of in some kind of memory crystal cube on the TARDIS. Don't let me think it's something important or else I'll make sure it isn't ever stolen!
MARTHA: But this doesn't make any sense! In the original version of this story you changed into a human because you wanted to know what it was like to feel human emotions! Now you're doing it to escape from some lame ass aliens that aren't scary or threatening!
DR: That's not important! Whats important is that fanboys get to see the doctor cavort as a turn of the century school teacher and be all unsure of myself! Too bad the writing is horrible and I just come off as a prick-ass!
MARTHA: This is fucking retarded!
DR: ..And Martha, THANK YOU!!

I also liked FEAR HER a lot, so you can analyze WTF is wrong with me.

abbott's boyfriend OTM

Hhahaha awesome

OMG I am now terrified. I've skimmed through this thread, and even a cursory reading has informed me that quite a lot of people in ILX really rather like Dr. Who. Here I burst in, blustering about and swinging an indiscriminate axe, unmindful of the 40-strong army sitting at the table, all armed with assault rifles. Shall we...agree to disagree? *nervous cough*

*on ILX

I don't think it's the disagreeing so much as the manner of disagreeing.

Yeah, I know, it's a bit like slagging off an entire religion because I found one its ceremonies kinda dull. Having a pop at Dr. Who because of its perceived bad scripting/acting/soundtrack/etc clearly demonstrates no understanding of people's love for the show. Keep on worshipping, I insist; we must all pick our own poison.

*one of

Having a pop at Dr. Who because of its perceived bad scripting/acting/soundtrack/etc has been going on for a loooong time.

Still, it means Louis could get a job as a UK Gold/Channel 5 program announcer.

oh great, now my contrarianism has been outed as cliched hivemind thinking; you lot are the oppressed and enlightened minority, steadfast in your realisation that dr. who is in fact a work of brilliance. maybe i shouldn't even watch television in future if i'm going to make such a fool of myself over it.

What's with this "you lot" nonsense - you get to classify everyone on this thread as part of a hivemind, but one person on the thread does it to you and you get all antsy about it?

I don't think anyone's claiming to be any more enlightened than anyone else, btw. Just, y'know, blundering into a Doctor Who thread going "haha you're all geeks and nerds and yer telly programme's shite" isn't really terribly endearing.

OKAY I just watched part II of episode, which ALSO really frustrated me UNTIL he became the Doctor again. Then at the veterans' memorial I cried and oh it all ended up good feelings equal to the terrible of before. Fuck, I am so easily manipulated, that's why I have a hard time watching movies or TV. It just really wears on me. Good one tho.

I overheard some man speaking in ever-so portentous tones "She is trapped in a mirror...in EVERY mirror! You shall see her in you!"

No ways, not too portentous, MIRROR ON SHROOMS d00d.

Clearly I don't do 'dripping with sarcasm' particularly well. I wasn't accusing the Dr. Who fans on this thread of being nerds, merely observing that most of those who watched it in our common-room were generally science students with limited social skills. I'm not insinuating anything about you lot. Haha, I did it again!

I can't help having opinions upon something I witnessed. I felt like voicing my discontent (it still simmering as I returned to my room), found a thread handily in New Answers, and posted my beliefs. Then I discovered that Dr. Who was practically a way of life for many people. My remorse is indescribable.

*no need for word 'generally' (tautology)

That was fantastic, best nu-Who yet by a mile

Having just watched this in an admittedly very drunken state, I'd go as far as to say that was the best single episode of any television series yet by a mile. Fuck the haters.

Fucking hell, the flash foward to John Smith and Matron's life together, THEN the Doctor coming back all sauve like, THEN the Doctor being an absolute total cunt to the Family, THEN the Doctor and Martha hugging, THEN The Great War, THEN Martha and the Doc turning up at the memorial... That's five THENs, which is unprecidented, emotional rollercoaster, people.

I don't think it's the disagreeing so much as the manner of disagreeing.

Incidentally, this gem from Ailsa is the most OTM thing about Louis I've ever read, if a mid-league poster such as myself can be allowed to interject in such matters.

MARTHA: Why don't you just zap the TARDIS into their ship and fuck their shit up?

Weren't the aliens steadily weakening in power over the time between them trailing the TARDIS and finally arriving at the school? I thought it was pretty strongly implied that if the Doctor had come face-to-face with them at the start they would have eaten him or something.

Something I liked about the story was how un-fleshed-out the aliens were: no background, no build-up, just entirely generic RTD-style body-horror bad guys, which made perfect sense when the focus was on the human and collateral costs of the Doctor's adventures.

Weren't the aliens steadily weakening in power over the time between them trailing the TARDIS and finally arriving at the school?

Yeah, they were born powerful and die within 3 months as they steadily weaken. "Like mayflies" was how the script had it.

I'm not going to get drawn into the LJ saga other than to say the evidence above increases my suspicions nu-LJ is the same as nu-nu-Tuomas, i.e. fake LJ.

I thought it was pretty strongly implied that if the Doctor had come face-to-face with them at the start they would have eaten him or something.

alien ated Dr. Who, fans!

Louis you know how you think Mansun's 'Six' is a heartrending work of visionary genius and everyone else thinks its a load of old cobblers? This is a bit like that.

-- Matt DC, Sunday, June 3, 2007 12:35 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark Link

YES.

live and let live: some people like shit tv/music

I thought it was pretty strongly implied that if the Doctor had come face-to-face with them at the start they would have eaten him or something.
It was the opposite - if the Doctor had come face-to-face with them at the start, he would have been able to whup their arses as easily as he ultimately did. He was giving them a chance to avoid that - by hiding himself, he lets them die naturally. Of course, they wouldn't let it lie, and eventually faced the consequences. This ties in with the "no second chances" thread of this Doctor's personality - he'll give you a chance, but push it too far and you're fucked (Sycorax Leader, Empress of Racnos).

I am letting them live! My complaint was a subjective personal diatribe at a television show I'd accidentally watched, without taking its ILX audience into account. Now I've seen how they feel, I reckon I might have short-changed the programme a little, and moreover I might have voiced my complaint in rather stronger terms than was necessary.