Multiple shooting at Virginia Tech university

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6560685.stm

― Alba, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

20 killed, according to CNN

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

Live press conference says only one.

― Alba, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:25 (eighteen years ago)

Jesus Christ. They went after a dorm and an engineering building.

― kingfish, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:25 (eighteen years ago)

BLACKSBURG, Virginia (AP) — Virginia Tech campus police chief says at least 22 are dead after a shooting the university. 161624 apr

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:26 (eighteen years ago)

Oh, hang on, that was in one location. More deaths elsewhere.

― Alba, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:26 (eighteen years ago)

The gunman was killed

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:26 (eighteen years ago)

They seem to be reporting two gunmen: the shooter from earlier who killed one and the more recent one. One in custody and one dead?

― Alba, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:33 (eighteen years ago)

From what I can see, they have one dead gunman but procedure in this case is to look for a second as well

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:33 (eighteen years ago)

BLACKSBURG, Virginia (AP) — A gunman opened fire in a dormitory and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing 21 people and wounding another 21 before he was killed, police said.
"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said university president Charles Steger.
The university reported shootings at opposite sides of the 2,600-acre (1,052-hectare) campus, beginning at about 7:15 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston, a co-ed residence hall that houses 895 people, and continuing about two hours later at Norris Hall, an engineering building.

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

How did he manage to cut about for two hours?

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

BLOODBATH AT VIRGINIA TECH

is the headline on Drudge, in bold bright red. Great.

― kingfish, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

perhaps you should consider just not reading drudge and contributing to his hits counter.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Monday, 16 April 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

cnn.com went from reporting 1 dead to 20 dead in a matter of minutes. this is the worst murder spree at a school in US history, and it doesn't have far to go to be the worst murder spree in US history period. jesus.

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.buffalobeast.com/96/images/tinfoil.hat.jpg

Gonzalez testifies tomorrow

― Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

oh right VT-Blacksburg was where a cop and a security guard both got killed on campus last august

― TOMBOT, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Morva

What the HELL is up with the Blacksburg police department???

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

Are you in the area? Did you witness the shootings? Send us your comments and experiences using the form below. If you have any pictures or video you can send them to yourp✧✧✧@b✧✧.c✧.u✧.

― RichyGtwo, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

I don't understand - this cannot possibly have anything to do with those handgun laws in the US, can it?

― StanM, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

uh-oh

― Mr. Que, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

stan let's give this a good 90 minutes to percolate before the angloid policy discussions ok?

― gff, Monday, 16 April 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

oh, okay! (I was going to say it wouldn't have happened if every student had had their own gun to defend themselves, but yeah, I'll wait.)

― StanM, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:01 (eighteen years ago)

well then you'd have to have mandatory gun training in schools so they'd know how to use them. Come on, we can't even get sex ed right.

― Ms Misery, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

um so yeah this is my hometown. i know the buildings being discussed well. it's just unfathomable. blacksburg is very much a small town, very quaint and quiet, even with vt there. my mom works at tech, and was nearby when it happened -- i just now got her on the phone -- and said they could all hear gunshots in the office. she's really, really shaken up, and says no one has any idea what to make of it. just insane. i still can't believe it.

― YGS, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)

The two hours thing is still mind-boggling. What did he do? What were the cops up to? (On that note, in the pictures coming out are some of the hugest cops I've ever seen. They're like fridges with guns.)

xpost shit, sorry YGS.

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

Sky: gunman was a "young Asian man" who entered the university "looking for his girlfriend". He lined his victims up against the wall.

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:09 (eighteen years ago)

xxpost - that's good that your mom is okay, ygs. Was it only students shot?

Most schools - University and lower - have emergency plans to deal with things like shootings. It sounds like employees were communicated with by email and phone (yay interwebs!) but what about students who maybe were not seated in front of a computer?

The uni where I work recently deployed a siren system, kind of like tornado warnings, that sounds very loud at several places across campus for things like shootings. The instruction is when you hear the sirens get inside the nearest building and stay away from windows and doors.

― Ms Misery, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:10 (eighteen years ago)

re: what were the police up to: the campus area is like three square miles, according to CNN - not very simple to secure an area like that, especially if you don't know where to start exactly and whether there is only one person or more.

― StanM, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:10 (eighteen years ago)

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/newt1.vatech.mon.13.ap.jpg

― chicago kevin, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

I hope that person's not deceased. not cool.

― Ms Misery, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

alternate, non-cropped shot:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2007-04/29094248.jpg

― chicago kevin, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:14 (eighteen years ago)

ugh, there's one more in that photo series from the chicago tribune but it's very explicit.

― chicago kevin, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:15 (eighteen years ago)

holy shit

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)

That paper should not be publishing these photos right now. I'm sure most family is clueless about whether their kids are okay.

― Ms Misery, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)

not surprisingly virginia tech website is down

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:21 (eighteen years ago)

Those pictures were of injured kids, not dead, which is something. But they were marked ONLINE OUT which means they should never have been online in the first place

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:22 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, you can't neccesarily tell what their condition is. If I was a mom, I'd be freaking out.

I just got to VT's site.

― Ms Misery, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:24 (eighteen years ago)

Fucking hell. A friend of mine teaches there and I visited for a bit a couple years back. Blacksburg is a tiny town and like YGS said, you would barely know that the campus is there.

― Elvis Telecom, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:27 (eighteen years ago)

vt.edu email is bouncing at the moment too.

― Elvis Telecom, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:27 (eighteen years ago)

That paper should not be publishing these photos right now. I'm sure most family is clueless about whether their kids are okay.

I'm sure the precedent was made at Columbine, with the kid waving his bloody arm out the window.

Not defending the immediate coverage, though we do now live in an age where passengers on a possibly-doomed airplane can watch their fates unfold on satellite televisions installed into their seatbacks.

― Pleasant Plains, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:28 (eighteen years ago)

The website has a podcast about it up already, jesus

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said that one person was killed in the first shooting, which occurred just after 7 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston Hall, a large dormitory. Flinchum said that at least 20 more people were killed in a later shooting at Norris Hall, an academic building.

University president Charles Steger said that police have not officially tied together the two shootings.

So there was a shooting at 7 a.m. and there were still classes? Strange. But maybe I'll just spend the day offline and see tomorrow how it fits together.

― Eazy, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:30 (eighteen years ago)

xpost media needs to chill with the scoops on tragedy!

Maybe the first shooting was related to an ex-girlfriend and they were still processing that crime scene, not knowing the suspect and not imagining a killing spree would follow.

― Ms Misery, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:32 (eighteen years ago)

oh, if you think that photo's graphic, check foxnews

― moonship journey to baja, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:35 (eighteen years ago)

classy.

Jesus fucking Christ ppl, this is serious.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:37 (eighteen years ago)

unidentified person getting arrested:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_01/virginiaAP1604_468x235.jpg

― Steve Shasta, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:39 (eighteen years ago)

AP:
Aimee Kanode, a first-year student, said the shooting happened on the fourth floor of West Ambler Johnston dormitory, one floor above her room. The resident assistant in Kanode's dormitory knocked on her door about 8am (1300 BST) to notify students to stay put.
"They had us under lockdown," Kanode said. "They temporarily lifted the lockdown, the gunman shot again."
"We're all locked in our dorms surfing the internet trying to figure out what's going on," Kanode said.

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:39 (eighteen years ago)

There is a lot of student and teacher exchange between Mi. Tech, my alma mater, and Va. Tech, and I've already learned that some students and colleagues of a professor I had as an undergrad (who works there now) have been injured.

― dan m, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:41 (eighteen years ago)

those cops really are fucking hueg, btw

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:41 (eighteen years ago)

my only friend there is ok thank god

― 69, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:42 (eighteen years ago)

32 dead now, sorry to say.

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:42 (eighteen years ago)

oh jesus....is that from the wounded succumbing to injuries, or are they finding more bodies?

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

odds of nat'l referendum on HALO 2 1:5
odds of nat'l referendum on gun control 1:1000

― moonship journey to baja, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

holy shit. now the worst murder spree in US history.

more eyewitness reports. sounds like it was chaos.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/wb/xp-113296

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

it's from the injured count earlier, they say.

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

what's yr source stet?

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:46 (eighteen years ago)

It's on the Reuter wire

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:47 (eighteen years ago)

quoting "federal sources"

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:47 (eighteen years ago)

Bizarrely, the movie quote that's going thru my mind is "Do any of you people know who Charles Whitman was? None of you dumbasses knows?"

― kingfish, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:49 (eighteen years ago)

My first thought when I heard 22 was, "Holy shit, Whitman only killed 16!"

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:51 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.team4news.com/Global/story.asp?S=6376010

― moonship journey to baja, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:53 (eighteen years ago)

eyewitness reports @ bbc

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/6561335.stm

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:54 (eighteen years ago)

My Longhorn pride is deeply wounded.

― Oilyrags, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:55 (eighteen years ago)

my wife lived in that dorm. Fuck.

― Dandy Don Weiner, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:56 (eighteen years ago)

my first thought was: who's going to top the charts with "I Don't Like Mondays '07"?

― Alex in Baltimore, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:57 (eighteen years ago)

"We have a ballpark figure on fatalities. It's at least 20 fatalities," Virginia Tech police chief Wendell Flinchum said.

A ballpark figure?

― aimurchie, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:58 (eighteen years ago)

five dollars to the first sighting of a "pundit" speculating islamofascism

― modestmickey, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:00 (eighteen years ago)

i actually can't really fathom how some of you are being so crass abt this.

― ian, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:00 (eighteen years ago)

and, xpost, that includes you mickey you dimwit.

― ian, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:00 (eighteen years ago)

no shit!

― Mr. Que, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:01 (eighteen years ago)

I can't find a link for it right now, but didn't Murder Can Be Fun write about an incident where a guy strapped dynamite to himself, walked into a NYC elementary sometime around 1944-1945, and blew himself up?

― kingfish, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:01 (eighteen years ago)

ian otm

(my comment about the hueg cops notwithstanding)

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:01 (eighteen years ago)

My Longhorn pride is deeply wounded.

not quite what i meant, but ok.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:01 (eighteen years ago)

common US colloquialism. "in the ballpark" meaning a rough estimate.

xpost to aimurchie

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:02 (eighteen years ago)

also, ian otm

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:02 (eighteen years ago)

sometimes ilx is like being in a shitty improv

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:03 (eighteen years ago)

The cops look huge because those are KIDS. This is awful. Why the hell do psychos always go for schools and colleges?

― Scik Mouthy, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:04 (eighteen years ago)

ian, really shocked that includes me! me!

― modestmickey, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:05 (eighteen years ago)

God, this is fucking horrible! Don't know what else to say really.

― Pashmina, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:05 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20793456@N00/

― Steve Shasta, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:05 (eighteen years ago)

scik, is there any reason to think the shooter wasn't another college student? that was my immediate assumption

― modestmickey, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:06 (eighteen years ago)

unusual population stats, why is a small town host dominated by a state univesity?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksburg%2C_Virginia

In the 1970's Blacksburg's population more than tripled as Virginia Tech was annexed into the town and other land area was also brought in. The population grew from 9,000 people in 1970 to 30,000 in 1980.

by 2000 census...there are an estimated 39,573 people residing in Blacksburg [3], of which an estimated 23,895 (≈ 60%) are college students [4].

― djmartian, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:07 (eighteen years ago)

there are tons of small towns throughout the US dominated by a university

― Mr. Que, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:08 (eighteen years ago)

Why the hell do psychos always go for schools and colleges?

because we pay more attention that way?

― gabbneb, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:08 (eighteen years ago)

my mouth tastes like metal right now this is so sick and awful

― rrrobyn, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:08 (eighteen years ago)

my friend dave's dad was injured. i saw dave last night at the roky erickson show having the time of his life, now he's driving home from nyc, in this mess, because of this greater mess.

way to go, funny people of ilx.

― hstencil, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:08 (eighteen years ago)

I never realized how many ILXors are complete fucking assholes.

― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:09 (eighteen years ago)

― Scik Mouthy, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:09 (eighteen years ago)

djmartian, it's common over here. i grew up in a town like that.

― modestmickey, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:09 (eighteen years ago)

you don't understand why shooting kids is more shocking than shooting government employees or yuppie coffee-drinkers?

― gabbneb, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:10 (eighteen years ago)

The horrible thing about the flickr page is how it jumps straight from happy-at-a-gig pictures to hiding-from-a-gunman.

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:11 (eighteen years ago)

A disgrace and a shame. I hope it isn't crass, or 'too soon,' to point out that the body count might have been far lower had students and teachers been given the right to defend themselves.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

Jan 21, 2006
HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.
By Greg Esposito 381-1675

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.

Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.
In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:11 (eighteen years ago)

It's both crass and too soon, let's argue later, Jesus

― Will M., Monday, 16 April 2007 18:12 (eighteen years ago)

it's both. xpost

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:13 (eighteen years ago)

re: there are tons of small towns throughout the US dominated by a university

historically why? cheaper and more land available to build? local [tax & financial] incentives compared to larger metro cities?

― djmartian, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:13 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, let's not turn this into a debate about gun control.

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:13 (eighteen years ago)

Even so, and I don't know if that's the case (although I guess if he started off in dorm area it suggests that [if there's only one]), why the hell shoot his classmates, friends, even the kids he didn't like? Why not head for a local government building or a Starbucks and go mental there?

-- Scik Mouthy, Monday, April 16, 2007 2:09 PM (54 seconds ago)

i mean, from the little rumored detail ive heard, the campus was a locus of whatever was going on in the shooter's life. i dont know if it makes sense to think of it as a statement or something to be made efficient or actually anything but like unreasonable and horrible.

― 69, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:13 (eighteen years ago)

it's both

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:13 (eighteen years ago)

it's cheaper, and there is more space to expand.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Monday, 16 April 2007 18:14 (eighteen years ago)

Mass murder sucks. I hope that's a more acceptable response.

FWIW, my uncle was a student at UT when Whitman went on his spree, and although he wasn't one of those shot, he was on campus when it happened and pulled one of the injured to cover. I hope I'd be able to show as much, but even more I hope I never have to.

― Oilyrags, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:14 (eighteen years ago)

at least in that situation there was some cover. This sounds like it was a turkey shoot.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:15 (eighteen years ago)

...which, to me, makes the body count that much weirder.

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:16 (eighteen years ago)

what a fucking nightmare.

yeah, let's not turn this into a debate about gun control.

something tells me this is inevitable.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:16 (eighteen years ago)

like, if this guy wasn't a sniper, and just a lone gunman, how was he able to line up and just execute ppl at will? it wouldn't take much for a few people to overwhelm him, you know?

(this is assuming that he wasn't roving around and shooting on the fly)

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:18 (eighteen years ago)

CNN is still reporting 21 dead, but Fox is up to 32 now. This is horrible.

― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:19 (eighteen years ago)

we'll have a better idea in a few hours, I'm guessing.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:20 (eighteen years ago)

Why the hell do psychos always go for schools and colleges?

I don't have the stats to back this up but my perception is that workplaces are the number one mass murder locales. schools and colleges get the most news coverage, however.

at least in that situation there was some cover. This sounds like it was a turkey shoot.

one of the articles I read said he had lined victims up against a wall. and trapping people in a classroom is, well, shooting fish in a barrel is the horrible phrase that comes to mind.

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:20 (eighteen years ago)

something tells me this is inevitable.

It can wait.

xpost reuters still says 22...?

― Will M., Monday, 16 April 2007 18:20 (eighteen years ago)

reuters has a small breaking new blurb reading 32, not a full story. seems like a lot of news orgs have been holding back on reporting reuters' 32. can't blame them, you don't want to say "worst murder spree in american history" and then have to retract it.

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:22 (eighteen years ago)

reuters says that foxnews says it's 32.

ABC news is reporting 29.

― Roz, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:22 (eighteen years ago)

what's this about multiple shooters?

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:23 (eighteen years ago)

I think the 32 figure is all coming from the same place -- Fox, Sky and a few other places (including Reuter earlier) all seem to be reporting each other's "federal source". BBC and PA still have 21.

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:23 (eighteen years ago)

Reuters
2:21pm ET
At least 22 people and as many as 32 were killed and more than two dozen wounded at Virginia Tech university in the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history.

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:23 (eighteen years ago)

MSNBC has an audio interview (on its front page) with a student who was shot in the arm in one of the classrooms. It's kind of unbearable to hear the manipulations and questionable empathy of the interviewer, but it does give a clearer idea of what was happening in there.

― Eazy, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:24 (eighteen years ago)

Manipulation disguised as empathy, I should say.

― Eazy, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:25 (eighteen years ago)

foxnews saying "at least 32 confirmed dead". AT LEAST.

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:27 (eighteen years ago)

it wouldn't take much for a few people to overwhelm him, you know?

No, not much, just a willingness to guarantee yourself a bullet. I dunno about anyone else, but I bet I'd find it easier to run away from a crazy murderer than towards one.

― Oilyrags, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:28 (eighteen years ago)

Aljazeera has "reports 32 killed, at least 28 injured, one of deadliest campus shootings in US history" as well - (American) pundits talking about 2nd amendment, Columbine

― StanM, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:28 (eighteen years ago)

This is pretty horrifying, and the media wringer that some of these kids & faculty are going to be put thru in the next 5 days isn't going to help.

― kingfish, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:29 (eighteen years ago)

i hate this shit:

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9420/untitledmi1.jpg

― Will M., Monday, 16 April 2007 18:30 (eighteen years ago)

Still on Aljazeera: a certain Mr. Lassiter from the "Center for the Prevention Of School Violence" refuses to be drawn into anti-handgun argument - "this isn't about guns, this is about troubled, suicidal teenagers who don't get the help they require and we need to look at that"

― StanM, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:34 (eighteen years ago)

"like, if this guy wasn't a sniper, and just a lone gunman, how was he able to line up and just execute ppl at will? it wouldn't take much for a few people to overwhelm him, you know?"

ive never understood this line of thought, which i usually hear from jackasses (i am absolutely not trying to imply anything about riverwolf, its just this kind of belief often seems to come from "why didnt those fags do anything" fuckheads). people are not capable of hiveminding or telepathy, so to do what you suggest would likely take a person brave enough to singlehandedly charge the gunman knowing full well he is going to be shot, probably dead.

― deeznuts, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:37 (eighteen years ago)

Indeed... and this was a room full of kids, remember.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:39 (eighteen years ago)

some news coverage has been pretty reprehensible, even at this early stage. particularly annoying is this photo. the cops were probably arresting every asian man they found on campus while it was unfolding.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/edwardiii/14_22_041607_shooting1.jpg

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:39 (eighteen years ago)

CNN: "AP: 31 people dead"

― StanM, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:40 (eighteen years ago)

arresting or taking into custody?

― chicago kevin, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:41 (eighteen years ago)

detaining, whatever. but if that dude just picked the wrong day to wear black, that really sucks.

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:43 (eighteen years ago)

I think the point rw is making is that it seems odd that a single person could have managed to control/intimidate multiple people into lining up against a wall with the presumption that they would be shot. It doesn't have anything to do with bravery, it's a more logistical question.

My guess is that the reports of people being lined up is going to turn out to be inaccurate.

― John Justen, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:43 (eighteen years ago)

you are in a classroom. someone walks in and shoots the teacher dead, then says, "everybody up against the wall." what do you do?

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:45 (eighteen years ago)

Well, I certainly wouldn't stick around once he started shooting the other people lined up against the wall.

― John Justen, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:47 (eighteen years ago)

And do you run toward him or away?

― Oilyrags, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:48 (eighteen years ago)

but if that dude just picked the wrong day to wear black, that really sucks.

just to clarify, cops have to do what they have to do, but getting your picture splashed all over the internet as "unidentified suspect" is not cool.

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:48 (eighteen years ago)

I think the point rw is making is that it seems odd that a single person could have managed to control/intimidate multiple people into lining up against a wall with the presumption that they would be shot. It doesn't have anything to do with bravery, it's a more logistical question.

this is more in line with what i was thinking, yeah.

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:49 (eighteen years ago)

It's kind of irrelevant at this point, no? Let's get more news before we start roleplaying

xxxpost

― Will M., Monday, 16 April 2007 18:49 (eighteen years ago)

i mean, E3's right, most anyone (myself included) would line up. but as soon as he started executing ppl i would hightail it the fuck out of there

xp good point

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:50 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.survivalarts.com/images/real_genius_screenshot.jpg

Hard not to stick around.

― Eazy, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:50 (eighteen years ago)

Read somewhere that that specific guy being 'detained' was a reporter for the campus paper.

― milo z, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:51 (eighteen years ago)

also, fwiw, news only appears to just be hitting campus here

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:52 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, I'm not gonna speculate any further, but it's not impossible to imagine. the only difference between my hypothetical and what happened in the columbine library is that people were ordered to lay down on the floor.

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:52 (eighteen years ago)

One of the things that I find odd about whenever really horrible things like this happen is that there'll be some very rough initial report containing some bit that gets latched onto, due to symbolic importance or not, and people will continue to support that fact long after it gets debunked.

Not that icons/symbols having power is odd, but rather the continued dogmatic adherence to it long after it's proven to be wrong.

― kingfish, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:52 (eighteen years ago)

xxxpost worst text adventure ever, you guys

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:52 (eighteen years ago)

the internet is a terrible enabler for... i don't know, without knowing the name of a single victim they're already being exploited.

"Let's get more news before we start roleplaying

xxxpost

-- Will M., Monday, April 16, 2007 9:49 PM (3 minutes ago)"

8080

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:53 (eighteen years ago)

This post on Metafilter has emails the campus authorities sent, including:

Subject: PLease stay put

A gunman is loose on campus. Stay in buildings until further notice. Stay away from all windows

Horrible.

― caek, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:54 (eighteen years ago)

virginia tech shootings: shocking first hand accounts from bloggers
http://www.cybersoc.com/2007/04/virginia_tech_s.html

― djmartian, Monday, 16 April 2007 18:57 (eighteen years ago)

That MeFi post is horrible

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:02 (eighteen years ago)

it is astonishing the numbers, not just dead but wounded too. how much ammunition he had to carry, but also the sheer will. it's become a comic meme, the idea of one day snapping and going round killing co-workers -- as in 'fight club' and 'peep show'. but really to be able to do that is beyond comprehension.

― That one guy that quit, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:03 (eighteen years ago)

so sad

― lfam, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:04 (eighteen years ago)

from what i've gleaned from the news playing in the background, one student (possibly the reporter pictured above) was arrested because he didn't have his hands above his head when they were instructed to leave the building

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:04 (eighteen years ago)

and eavesdropping on the students here is sort of appalling. exhibit A: dude making a sideways gat gat gat hand gesture. classy, dude.

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:05 (eighteen years ago)

From MeFi, I can't decide if it was reasonable or just plain stupid for officials just to warn everyone to "be cautious" after the first shooting -- when they didn't have the gunman, obviously! -- and not order the campus lockdown until 9.52

― stet, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:09 (eighteen years ago)

if a couple of people get shot in a public place and the gunman's not apprehended, seems like common sense to shut the place down. I know this is a large campus and there's a fog of crisis aspect, but still. I think some people are going to get called out on the carpet for it.

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:13 (eighteen years ago)

probably just plain stupid, but maybe they were concerned that a lockdown would lock the shooter IN with the students?

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:14 (eighteen years ago)

Anybody seen this (hope ILE lets me run it?). The Wa-Post published the newsblog of the student newspaper's editor in chief.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/04/16/DI2007041600763.html?hpid=topnews

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:17 (eighteen years ago)

Shit shit shit. This is really terrible.

― Curt1s Stephens, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:29 (eighteen years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shootings is compiling news details.

― Elvis Telecom, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

Bush's first response was, via his press 'bot, to admit this is a real bummer but reaffirm that Americans have the right to bear arms.

― i, grey, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)

no his first response via dana perino was to reaffirm that Americans have the right to bear arms but admit this is a real bummer

― gabbneb, Monday, 16 April 2007 19:59 (eighteen years ago)

our uniter and reassuruer in chief in action in excelsis

― gff, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:00 (eighteen years ago)

ugh god i hope thats a joke igrey

― deeznuts, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:09 (eighteen years ago)

White House deputy press secretary Dana Perino says the president was ... quote ... "horrified and his immediate reaction was one of deep concern for the families of the victims, the victims themselves, the students, the professors and all the people of Virginia who have dealt with this shocking incident."

Perino said ... quote ... "The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed."

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:19 (eighteen years ago)

this thread has been stunned into an honorable silence

― Edward III, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:22 (eighteen years ago)

White House Press Briefing

Q Dana, going back to Virginia Tech, what more does this White House think needs to be done as it relates to gun issues? The President says current laws need to be strengthened, anything beyond that -- you had a conference on school violence with guns -- what more needs to be done?

MS. PERINO: I would point you back to the fact that President, along with Secretary Spellings, hosted last October -- October 10, 2006 -- a conference on school gun violence after the Amish school shooting and the other shootings that had happened, because the tragedies are the ones that just collectively break America's heart and are ones that we deeply feel, because all of us can imagine what it would be like to have been at your own school, your own college, and to have something happen. And those of us who are parents, or brothers or sisters of people at the schools have to take that into consideration.

As far as policy, the President believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed. And certainly bringing a gun into a school dormitory and shooting -- I don't want to say numbers because I know that they're still trying to figure out many people were wounded and possibly killed, but obviously that would be against the law and something that someone should be held accountable for.

― Kerm, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:22 (eighteen years ago)

holy shit

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:23 (eighteen years ago)

MASS MURDER STILL ILLEGAL NEWS AT 11

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:24 (eighteen years ago)

COURAGE

― Dr Morbius, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:24 (eighteen years ago)

the president is keeping a stiff lower lip and furrowed brow in the face of this complex issue

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

OK, so Bush wasn't the one who brought up the issue of gun control. That's not so WTF anymore.

― Curt1s Stephens, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

sadly enough, it's not

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:27 (eighteen years ago)

Hey folks. I'm a longtime lurker. I graduated from Virginia Tech in '04. I don't think I know anybody directly involved in all this, though.

― Kerm, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:29 (eighteen years ago)

i hope not!

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:30 (eighteen years ago)

I hope this line of thinking won't come across as insensitive or inappropriate, but ... I'm actually surprised that when people do this sort of thing, there aren't far MORE deaths. I don't know if it has to do with the psychology of the shooters, people's ability to flee, or just something I don't understand about how guns work, but it's not unthinkable that someone like this, in a crowded place like a college campus, could do damage worse even than THIS, something already too awful to really wrap your mind around.

I mention this in gun-control terms: fine, guns don't kill people, people kill people, but guns are often what allow that one rare deranged person to end dozens of lives before anyone can even react.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:32 (eighteen years ago)

(CNN) -- Virginia Tech graduate student Jamal Albarghouti captured dramatic video of the deadly shooting on his cell phone.

He was heading across campus to meet with an adviser, not knowing anything of the 7.15 a.m. dormitory attack that killed at least one person.

He was nearing Patton Hall when a man started shouting at everyone to get out of the way, Albarghouti told CNN. (Watch Albarghouti's video of police officers swarming amid the sound of gunfire )

He said he was only about 200 feet from Norris Hall, where the second round of shooting happened.

"I just turned around and left," he said, and that was when he ran into police officers rushing to the scene.

"When I saw the policeman taking their guns out, then I knew that this was serious."

Albarghouti took cover on the ground as ordered by the officers and then pulled out his cell phone to shoot video.

He captured scenes of police officers with guns drawn, moving toward a building. The sound of multiple shots being fired can also be heard on the video.

Albarghouti, like many other students on the campus, was aware there had been bomb threats recently.

But he said seeing the officers draw their guns made him realize this was different.

"I knew it was something way more serious than that, so I started taking the video," he said, adding that he often visited CNN.com and knew he could send his video to I-Report.

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:34 (eighteen years ago)

nabisco, i actually always kind of think the same thing. maybe it's a result of growing up with video games.

― modestmickey, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:34 (eighteen years ago)

nabisco: pretty sure dude had a handgun, which means that actually hitting people is much harder you'd think. i think is a common misconception: if an inexperienced shooter tries to hit you from across the room, chances are as likely as not that they WON'T hit you, especially if you're moving. running away from someone with a handgun is usually pretty sound theory; if you're zig zagging or whatever, it's not likely that a shooter could hit you once you got more than, say, 100 feet away

so i'm actually of the opposite mind: i'm shocked that the death toll is this high (which is why cornering/lining ppl up in the classroom theory seems to make the most sense).

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:37 (eighteen years ago)

i think is a common misconception

which might explain why you're perplexed about how people react

― gabbneb, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:39 (eighteen years ago)

nabisco not otm

― lfam, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:39 (eighteen years ago)

gabbneb: what?

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:41 (eighteen years ago)

Typo on my part: I think this is a common misconception.

That being said--someone waving a gun around is obviously going to be terrifying, and the accuracy of a handgun is not going to be at the forefront of anyone's mind.

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:43 (eighteen years ago)

I've been not-reading articles on this, actually, so I didn't realize it was a handgun -- I just assumed from the high numbers he had something worse.

In any case, it scares me to think of how much damage one person -- with plotting, planning, and stockpiling -- can do, using tools that are freely available to most of us. I guess there are days where it seems like a blessing that McVeighs and Whoever-Did-Thises are still rare.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:45 (eighteen years ago)

I shouldn't say McVeigh, actually, whose materials were ... well, you're not allowed to go buy a bomb.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)

a handgun? wtf

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)

nabisco: not sure that it was a handgun, that just seems to be the most likely scenario since, yeah, they're not that difficult to get ahold of (and it sounds like a handgun). if he DID have some kind of fully automatic weapon, then the toll is, as you said, lower than you might expect (as awful as that kind of speculation is).

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:48 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think a handgun is the "likely scenario" here. Most spree killings usually are performed with greater firepower.

― Pleasant Plains, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:50 (eighteen years ago)

Why do they keep repeating that they're not sure both incidents are related?

― StanM, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:52 (eighteen years ago)

Oh, River, I didn't mean with this person specifically. Just that it amazes/scares me to think that one sick person could, in the right place, with the right weapons, do even worse.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

there were 2 columbine shooters moving through a crowded high school with massive firepower and they killed 12. 31 seems high even for massive firepower.

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

in that ireport video you can hear gunshots which def seem to be coming from a handgun. of course those shots arent necessarily the shooters.

― deeznuts, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:54 (eighteen years ago)

Fully automatic weapons are almost impossible to come by, legally or illegally.

It could be a handgun, could be a shotgun, could be a rifle. They're all equally deadly inside of a classroom, I wouldn't call any of them 'greater firepower.' It's easier to conceal a handgun (as in walking from one part of the campus to another) and easier to carry a great deal of ammunition.

Always strange that the media fixates on that question, because it seems to be the issue that matters least in every respect.

― milo z, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:55 (eighteen years ago)

this is the event i was thinking of, in Killeen, TX, 16 years ago.

― kingfish, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, you're probably right. reviewing the news reports i realize that the handgun part was an assumption i made: they're easy to get ahold of/some people already own them. cf. heavier stuff, which are difficult to get, and usually means that you're buying with intent to use, or you're a "gun person," and have a yen for armalites.

and xp milo's right, in a way: fixating on the gun used is weirdly fetishistic (je m'accuse), and distracts from the tragedy

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

this is so awful i don't even know what to say

― latebloomer, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:03 (eighteen years ago)

re the gun thing. i think people focus on things like that because they want answers-- and it's usually hard, if not impossible, to get "why" (less difficult these days though, with so many people posting online-- eg. Dawson in MTL), so a lot of people settle for the second hardest to get question, "how." Handgun v. shotgun v. cleaver v. harsh words v. etc. might seem like an insensitive topic but I think it's fair to ask HOW something so awful could have happened, and it pretty much is the "how" of the situation.

― Will M., Monday, 16 April 2007 21:07 (eighteen years ago)

Watching CNN is making me sick. Clasic Monday morning quarterback situation with the press asking these preposterous questions of the Virginia Tech president and head of security.

By the way, it was clarified upthread, but yeah, as a shooter, the likelihood that this was done wih 'fully automatic' weapons seems very remote.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:10 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah I didn't want to start a guns-n-ammo discussion, but exactly: we're never going to have a good sense of who winds up doing this stuff, or really why, but I do have an interest in knowing whether it's easy or difficult for them to step out and start.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:10 (eighteen years ago)

Sorry, that was an xpost. P.S. I know nothing about guns and don't want to.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:11 (eighteen years ago)

guns top the list of "worst inventions ever"

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:12 (eighteen years ago)

a family friend of my boyfriend's was killed at that luby's in Kileen. His little sister has never really been the same.

I was just in a VP's office here on campus. I was sitting outside the PR director's office waiting for her as she took call after call from press about this shooting. They all wanted interviews with our campus police chief about how UT would be prepared in an instance like this. In pure concidence we've been working on a safety promotion campaign to educate students about what to do in situations like this. It was due to be launched next month but is being moved up. She was also coordinating visits from VaTech officials to speak with survivors of Whitman's rampage.

That climbing toll is unbelievable. I think instead of having discussions of gun control the public should start about mental health care and how to spot and help people in trouble. When people lose it and want to hurt strangers, there are other ways to do it than just guns.

― Ms Misery, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:14 (eighteen years ago)

The identification of the gunman was proving difficult, because the suspected shooter did not have identification among his effects and because of the severity of an apparently self-inflicted wound to the head, according to a federal law enforcement official. He said investigators were trying to trace purchase records for two handguns found near the body. NY Times

It sounds like he was going from room to room. I heard about the "lining people up against the wall" but then I get the impression he was just roaming the building, popping into classrooms long enough to unload two handguns and then back into the hallway to reload. People would hear shots but not know what was going on, and not have time to do anything when he briefly entered their classroom and opened fire.

― Kerm, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:15 (eighteen years ago)

nabisco - that's the spirit, buddy. Remain ignorant. Golly, you're sharp!

rps - You and I disagree.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:17 (eighteen years ago)

you're the one watching CNN to get your news, duder.

― Mr. Que, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:17 (eighteen years ago)

I'm listening to NPR, and they're interviewing someone who was in the building from the custodial (I think) staff. This guy thinks it was an automatic weapon by the way he was "unloading" the bullets. Yikes.

― molly mummenschanz, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:19 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, that it was so many killed is hugely shocking to me. I guess part of it is that often when people are shot they don't die, so it's hard to comprehend why such a high percentage of the shots seems to have been lethal. In a crowded room, over time, it seems like something usually happens to stop the shooter -- he runs out of ammo, a gun jams, something. Which I guess is why when these things usually happen there are far fewer victims. I live in Virginia and many of my closest friends went to Tech (a long time ago, none are there now) so this is particularly horrible. Acquaintances of mine have kids that go there.

― Mark Rich@rdson, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:20 (eighteen years ago)

manalishi if you think the world wouldn't be a better place without guns in the hands of anyone, then i'm gonna assume your moral compass doesn't even exist

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:20 (eighteen years ago)

Unloading bullets? Huh?

xpost Hahahaha you got me there. But I switched to Fox a few minutes ago. Not much better news there, I'm afraid.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:20 (eighteen years ago)

rps - Let's not do this. You're embarrassing yourself.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:21 (eighteen years ago)

both of you cut it out

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:22 (eighteen years ago)

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:7pOVh0tEXcZulM:http://www.qualitylogoproducts.com/stress-balls/valentine-heart-figure-stress-reliever-extralarge.jpg

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:23 (eighteen years ago)

yes

As someone who owns a relatively large number of guns, I'm equally tired of the people who've started to turn this into an anti-gun crusade and the people who've already started whining that none of these 19-year old college kids was allowed to carry (because half-asleep college kids are the prime desirers of concealed weapons, I guess) and that's why it happened.

Ms. Misery OTM

― milo z, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:25 (eighteen years ago)

I think instead of having discussions of gun control the public should start about mental health care and how to spot and help people in trouble.

I'd prefer both.

― admrl, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:27 (eighteen years ago)

death toll up to 33

― Andi Mags, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:27 (eighteen years ago)

manalishi if you think the world wouldn't be a better place without guns in the hands of anyone, then i'm gonna assume your moral compass doesn't even exist

-- rps, Monday, April 16, 2007 5:20 PM (7 minutes ago)

non-sequitor much?

― lfam, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:29 (eighteen years ago)

just shut the fuck up manalishi you massive cock

― deeznuts, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

from drudge:

Virginia Tech students and an employee say the first e-mail warning they got from the university about the shooting rampage came more than two hours after the first shots were firedÑby which time the gunman had struck again... Developing...

― lfam, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

a little hyperbolic perhaps

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:31 (eighteen years ago)

that reminds me of when some kids got mugged in my old high school (after i left) and the administration decided NOT to warn the students that there had been a mugging on school property by someone who has not associated with the school

― lfam, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

just shut the fuck up manalishi you massive cock

-- deeznuts, Monday, April 16, 2007 5:31 PM (15 seconds ago)

8080

― Will M., Monday, 16 April 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

deeznuts - did I offend you?

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

Dude, Manalishi- "unloading", i.e. semi vs. fully automatic. I'm just quoting the old man (no link yet).

― molly mummenschanz, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

When people lose it and want to hurt strangers, there are other ways to do it than just guns.

Friend in Bangkok: "This only happens in America. Of course, we do have the occasional restaurant bombing..."

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:33 (eighteen years ago)

molly - i know. I'm just confused. Does he mean shells that were ejecting automatically?

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:34 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, the timeline on this is troubling. Imagine the guilt of whoever decided NOT to lock down the entire campus after the first shooting. And the anger of the parents whose kids were killed in the second building two hours after the first shooting. There will be a lot to answer for in that regard.

― Mark Rich@rdson, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:35 (eighteen years ago)

ts: heavy-handed moralizing v. smug contrarianism

oh wait you guys someone just shot 33 ppl maybe shut the hell up or at least be civil

xposts

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:36 (eighteen years ago)

The no lockdown thing IS pretty unbelievable. Moreover, why wasn't the place swarming with police after the first shooting?

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:37 (eighteen years ago)

maybe there should be some sort of program which is the equivalent of the "air marshall" program airlines use, where certain T.A.'s are actually highly trained gunmen. : /

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:37 (eighteen years ago)

xpost I agree. Scroll up, you'll see I've been quite civil. First and foremost, this is a horrible tragedy, all politics aside.

For the record, am I the moralizer or the contrarian?

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

you're the troll

― Mr. Que, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

i keep my classroom door locked and closed all the time - kids have to knock and wait when they go on a bathroom break. i'm not screwing around, though - there've been guns on our campus and there've been 20+ shootings in the neighborhood since new years.

i don't think it's projecting too much to picture a future when schools are on lockdown all the time.

― moonship journey to baja, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

Also, I'm pretty sure this old guy referred to the shooter as "a foreign." (eeep). This guy seemed to know that it *wasn't* a semi-automatic.

NPR, update your audio clips!

― molly mummenschanz, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:39 (eighteen years ago)

At the press conference the chief of police said that the had reason to believe shooter was on his way out of town, that sounded reasonable to them so they didn't lock down. And yeah, usually when people shoot someone they leave.

― Mark Rich@rdson, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:39 (eighteen years ago)

Somehow -- and correct me if I'm wrong, v -- the kind of shootings you're protecting against are of a completely different nature than this one. So, while you're right that lockdowns may be more common in the future, what happened today has basically nothing to do with guns in schools or shootings in neighborhoods.

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:41 (eighteen years ago)

I'm no troll, Mr Que.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:41 (eighteen years ago)

this is what my chingchong friend said when he heard that the shooter was asian - "prob some nignog made the mistake of calling him chink"

― cankles, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:42 (eighteen years ago)

oh hey adrian

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:42 (eighteen years ago)

Jeez Louise. God, please don't make it be anything like that.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:43 (eighteen years ago)

haysup riverdude :]

― cankles, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:44 (eighteen years ago)

(who r u i dont know every1's new names yet)

― cankles, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:44 (eighteen years ago)

cankles i am commish

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:45 (eighteen years ago)

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/9/9b/TommyChong.jpg http://www.waynescomputerworld.com/Dotti/Images/Food/eggnog.jpg

― and what, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:46 (eighteen years ago)

Apparently we've entered auditions for the "make this thread ugly" phase.

Re: lockdown, well, hindsight, etc. -- but with "only" two people shot in the first incident, I can see why there wouldn't yet be the assumption that this was some kind of spree. Or at least it depends on a whole bunch of judgments about the context that could legitimately take a little time.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:46 (eighteen years ago)

(gbx)

xp Ah, I didn't realize it was only the two in the first incident. I guess that makes it seems a lot more like a premeditated murder, and less like a spree.

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:48 (eighteen years ago)

"only"

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:48 (eighteen years ago)

Hey everyone - I've only skimmed the latter part of this thread, so my sincere apologies if I've missed something. I don't know about the rest of you, but my first impulse upon coming home and seeing this story was to stop reading at the first paragraph and immediately jump over to ILX to check people and their loved ones were okay. As a Londoner I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing my best thoughts to anyone who knows anyone who might be in the vicinity of the campus.

Hstencil - hope your friend's dad comes through this okay. Everyone else in the area, good to hear your people are okay. Hope the rest of you come out alright.

― Matt DC, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:48 (eighteen years ago)

Still, you'd think that they'd pump up police presence on campus in such a way that the response time would be quick enough to respond to the second round of shootings before the toll climbed so high. Or that they'd cancel classes pretty much across the board.

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:50 (eighteen years ago)

How does one go about living one's life without succumbing to the pressure to overreact or overlegislate to random, outlier threats?

― kingfish, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:55 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, true -- I feel like most campuses would go into ... not "lockdown," but a kind of "armed killer may be hiding near campus" alert. Who knows, though: maybe they were doing that, and we'll just have to wait to find out.

It's hard to want to collect information on this, though, when it's done and horrific and the details aren't going to help your head much.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:57 (eighteen years ago)

I'm a college freshman in Virginia; 39 people from my graduating class at my high school last went to Virginia Tech. I've talked to all of my closest friends, but I haven't heard the condition on most of the people I knew.

I do know, however, that someone from the class above me at my high school is in critical condition. Hopefully she'll stabilize but I guess all we can do is just wait and see.

― Reatards Unite, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:09 (eighteen years ago)

yeah riverwolf i was thinking that too but yr average campus security/small town cops are probably not going to be well-trained in swat tactics. they mayve 'responded' very quickly & even in large number but it probably took awhile before anyone entered the building.

and yeah i dont know what happened in the first incident but if were talking mass murderer on the loose, id kind of think campuswide lockdown is an obvious response.

― deeznuts, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:19 (eighteen years ago)

I grew up in Richmond, so alot of people I know have gone there. My cousin is there now and apparently was leaving the building when she heard the shots, got in her drove off to safety.

Girl who lives across the street from my dad apparently got grazed on the temple when fleeing the shooter, but is fine. Pretty amazing.

― Benjamin H, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:22 (eighteen years ago)

Bryan Williams, obviously flummoxed, stammers in front of the young man who, after getting shot in the arm (bullet passed through his arm), is standing there, grimly, getting interviewed.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:36 (eighteen years ago)

Man, as if the toll of dead and wounded weren't enough, just imagine how many fall into the horrific "lucky" just-didn't-get-hit category. It's actually hard to image what more of a horrible traumatic experience could befall a person.

― nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:49 (eighteen years ago)

That handcuffed guy appears to be a local reporter.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31887541@N00/462033240/in/pool-va-tech-shooting/

Flickr have a small pool of a photos...
http://www.flickr.com/groups/va-tech-shooting/pool/

― Ned Trifle II, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:51 (eighteen years ago)

Student reporter

― Ned Trifle II, Monday, 16 April 2007 22:52 (eighteen years ago)

That handcuffed guy appears to be a local reporter.

No - the student reporter took the picture. The handcuffed guy is still, as far as I'm aware, unidentified.

― Nicholas Passant, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:03 (eighteen years ago)

The "extraordinary" video CNN keeps showing not really that extraordinary. Not that I wanted to see blodshed, necessarily, but that looks like video that the police should be looking at and not us. It has very little news (or, erm, entertainment) value.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:04 (eighteen years ago)

In any case, it scares me to think of how much damage one person -- with plotting, planning, and stockpiling -- can do, using tools that are freely available to most of us. I guess there are days where it seems like a blessing that McVeighs and Whoever-Did-Thises are still rare.

...

I shouldn't say McVeigh, actually, whose materials were ... well, you're not allowed to go buy a bomb.

-- nabisco, Monday, 16 April 2007 20:46 (2 hours ago)

This exact thing was on my mind all the way home today. It's not that guns kill people instead of people, but readily available guns cannot be good. If you make getting a gun as difficult as making a bomb, well... Only outlaws will have guns, you say? I think I'm ok with that.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:07 (eighteen years ago)

xp The "extraordinary" video CNN keeps showing not really that extraordinary. Not that I wanted to see blodshed, necessarily, but that looks like video that the police should be looking at and not us. It has very little news (or, erm, entertainment) value.

What should we be looking at?

― Nicholas Passant, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:11 (eighteen years ago)

Man, I have no idea. I'm turning CNN off, though, I can tell you that much. I am learning very little by having it on.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:13 (eighteen years ago)

What is running through your mind that you want to document something like that with a cell phone camera? I really don't get that instinct. Maybe I am too old.

― Mark Rich@rdson, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:14 (eighteen years ago)

Didn't he already say that he was thinking he could get it on CNN?

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:14 (eighteen years ago)

Hmm.. That makes it sounds a cynical move, and I doubt most people who whip out their phones whilst crouched behind cars avoiding gunfire do it cynically. I think they do it because it's some kind of action, at least. And I think it's something to do with testimony.

― Nicholas Passant, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:18 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think *he* thinks it's a cynical move.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:19 (eighteen years ago)

and maybe you're right, maybe it's not. He didn't say he wanted to SELL the footage, only that he realized that he was a man on the scene, and maybe he could capture something no one else was capturing.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:20 (eighteen years ago)

hay guys

― am0n, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:21 (eighteen years ago)

"If you make getting a gun as difficult as making a bomb, well... Only outlaws will have guns, you say? I think I'm ok with that."

Without a doubt, easily, by several light years, the dumbest thing I've ever seen posted on this forum.

You're 'ok' with that?? I'm sorry, maybe I'm mistakenly assuming you are a decent and civilized person. Are you a rapist? A member of a gang? An ecoterrorist of some sort? Billy the Kid? Because if you aren't any of those things, how in the world can you believe something so preposterous?

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:24 (eighteen years ago)

This killer - whoever he is - did not get his 9mm at a fucking 'gun show,' I can pretty much guarantee you that.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:25 (eighteen years ago)

Are you a rapist?

haha You must be new here.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:28 (eighteen years ago)

1) how can you guarantee that?
2) who the fuck are you?
xp 3) lol kenan

― deej, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:30 (eighteen years ago)

M- you do know that this is an ecoterrorist board, right? Why do you think all those people on ILM have the opinions they have?

― kingfish, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:30 (eighteen years ago)

unbelievable

― strgn, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:31 (eighteen years ago)

Again, not new here.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:34 (eighteen years ago)

highfives kenan.

― river wolf, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:35 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, highfives kenan. You're king of the imbeciles.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:39 (eighteen years ago)

roffles

― dan m, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:39 (eighteen years ago)

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_Massacre

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Virginia_Tech_massacre#Local_Terrorist_Records_Incident_.5B1.5D

― Heave Ho, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:41 (eighteen years ago)

Overheard woman at my job today: "Oh, so first they're shooting people in high school and now they're doing it in college. Well you see these days blah blah blah ritalin blah blah ADHD blah blah Prozac..."

I think my least favorite thing about these tragedies (besides the tragedies themselves, obv.) is having to hear that kind of talk for months following.

― Hurting 2, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:43 (eighteen years ago)

I think my least favorite thing about these tragedies (besides the tragedies themselves, obv.) is having to hear that kind of talk for months following.

yeah, that's the thing; the endless punditing and using statistical outliers as a means to blame something you don't like.

Not to sound crass or inconsiderate, but how long 'til they blame video games this time?

― kingfish, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:45 (eighteen years ago)

How does one go about living one's life without succumbing to the pressure to overreact or overlegislate to random, outlier threats?

-- kingfish, Monday, April 16, 2007 5:55 PM (1 hour ago)

If a question can be OTM, this be it.

― Hurting 2, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:48 (eighteen years ago)

you create a system of government that is pluralist and slow-moving

― lfam, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:50 (eighteen years ago)

just a guess, you know

― lfam, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:50 (eighteen years ago)

Not sure I understand the Ritalin and Prozac thing -- saying they lead people to kill, or that we need more of them?

― Mark Rich@rdson, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:52 (eighteen years ago)

"I am pleased today to sign into law the Heartbroken Asian College Students Gun Waiting Period Act"

― Hurting 2, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:53 (eighteen years ago)

I'd like to see, or maybe even someone to link to, a study explaining how different the psychology of a mass-gun-murder-suicide perp is to that of a bomb builder. It seems to me that shooters like this (and of course I have no scientific insight, it just *seems* to me) are mostly thinking, I want to kill myself, because I'm in the kind of pain that motivates a person to do that, but I'm going to go one better, kill a bunch of people and cause a lot of *other* people pain as well, and gain some notoriety before I go. It seems a lot more slapdash than building a bomb, which seems to happen when someone has a *beef*, usually against a kind of perceived oppression that is much bigger than them, political or religious.

― kenan, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:54 (eighteen years ago)

I think she was implying that the kids these days they get too much ritalin and prozac, but also that the kids these days, they have too much ADD, but in general just, you know, the kids these days. (xpost)

― Hurting 2, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:55 (eighteen years ago)

Just, I think, that they're diagnosed more and more, and younger and younger.

Hence a greater number of young people are 'out of control'. So the theory goes.

(repeating, really, what H2 just said).

ps - the joke wikis linked to above are fucking vile.

― Nicholas Passant, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:56 (eighteen years ago)

"and of course I have no scientific insight, it just *seems* to me"

Of course. Twentysomething liberal discourse in a nutshell.

― Manalishi, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:58 (eighteen years ago)

it seems to me that a suicide bomber is saying, "i'm taking my own life in this way, this is my statement, and those around me will get my statement the attention". it's a little colder, in a way, less personal. a mass murderer/shooter has a more personal beef and wants to see the pain inflicted on those who have done them "wrong" before he or she goes.

both of 'em are useless types.

― rps, Monday, 16 April 2007 23:59 (eighteen years ago)

If they're useless types, then what the hell, why not?

― Nicholas Passant, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:01 (eighteen years ago)

http://wanusmaximus.livejournal.com/

― MRZBW, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:01 (eighteen years ago)

of course, we don't need either for the continuation of the species, but what I'm getting at is that people don't go to the trouble to build bombs for personal beefs, usually. But guns are easy to get.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:01 (eighteen years ago)

I mean, murder will always happen, but it's America making it really damn easy?

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:03 (eighteen years ago)

mrzbw, where did you come across that link

― rps, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:03 (eighteen years ago)

xpost isn't

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:03 (eighteen years ago)

"But guns are easy to get."

Is this your personal experience or does it just 'seem' that way to you? How many people do you know who own illegal guns, Kenan?

― Manalishi, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:05 (eighteen years ago)

fuck, none. Most of my family owns legal guns, though. The Columbine kids got the guns from their grandfather, iirc.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:06 (eighteen years ago)

That livejournal link - k-blimey.

― Alba, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:07 (eighteen years ago)

I TAKE IT BACK I do not recall correctly

"In the months prior to the attacks, Harris and Klebold acquired two 9 mm firearms and two 12-gauge shotguns. A rifle and the two shotguns were bought in a straw purchase in December 1998 by a friend, Robyn Anderson.[12] Harris and Klebold later bought a handgun from a friend, Mark Manes. Manes was jailed after the massacre for the offense of selling a handgun to a minor,[13] as was Philip Duran, who had introduced the duo to Manes.[14]

With instructions from the Internet, they also built 99 improvised explosive devices of various designs and sizes. They also sawed the barrels and butts off their shotguns in order to make them easier to conceal. The two perpetrators committed numerous felony violations of state and federal law, including the National Firearms Act and the Gun Control Act of 1968, even before the massacre began."

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:08 (eighteen years ago)

(I don't why it's so necessary to point out they they broke the law in that part of the wiki entry.)

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:09 (eighteen years ago)

Shooter or not that's some page

― stet, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:12 (eighteen years ago)

anyway, that's interesting -- we will find out in the next few days where the guns came from, and *then* the gun control debate will begin anew.

And frankly, I have no faith that any gun control law will be tightened in this country in any real way.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:12 (eighteen years ago)

how that livejournal was found via google blog search:
http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch?q=http%3A//wanusmaximus.livejournal.com/

― djmartian, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:12 (eighteen years ago)

that dude's xanga was updated like an hour ago, he's just some gun doofus engineering student

― A B C, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:13 (eighteen years ago)

this blogger reckons it was a fake rumour
http://lifesgood.wordpress.com/2007/04/16/virginia-tech-shooting-pt4/

― djmartian, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:14 (eighteen years ago)

This really is so shocking and awful. The scope of it is frightening.

When this happened here with the Port Arthur massacre, it really did change our gun laws, and ours were already very tight. They locked them down even further, though one could suggest it was a political pointscore at the time.

― Trayce, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:19 (eighteen years ago)

A political pointscore for the benefit of preserving lives is a good one.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:20 (eighteen years ago)

Not to sound crass or inconsiderate, but how long 'til they blame video games this time?

I forget where I read it, but by the time you had posted this, Jack Thompson had already been on Fux News. Blaming video games... just wow. Pushing agendas on the back of tragedy RULES

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:22 (eighteen years ago)

it really did change our gun laws, and ours were already very tight. They locked them down even further

ahhh See we won't do that.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:24 (eighteen years ago)

we do just the opposite in america. after the luby's massacre, texas passed a legal-to-carry-concealed-weapons law.

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:25 (eighteen years ago)

EXACTLY see also that troller's post about how if the students had only been allowed to arm themselves...

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:27 (eighteen years ago)

We are a violent people. I'm sorry for all of us. :(

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:28 (eighteen years ago)

MSNBC reports the serial numbers were filed off the guns, which means they were almost positively illegally obtained.

― Clay, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:36 (eighteen years ago)

I'm kinda getting a little pissed, since I have turned CNN back on. The party line about why we need guns is that only outlaws will have guns, and we all need to be able to defend ourselves, and all that. We should be able to shoot people who would otherwise shoot us, that's the argument, and outlawing guns would only leave you defenseless against criminals, who will invariably all have guns once we take steps to make guns very hard to get for anybody. WTF America.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:40 (eighteen years ago)

May the dead rest in peace. I'm keeping the friends and family of those affected in my thoughts and sympathies.

Fuck a bunch of you guys for taking this as an excuse to engage in ridiculous ideological posturing on a fucking message board.

(not directed @ you kenan xpost)

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:42 (eighteen years ago)

Trayce, what are Aussie hunting licenses like?

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:43 (eighteen years ago)

The boys in Jonesboro, Arkansas, who shot four little girls and their teacher got their guns from one of the boys' grandfather. Maybe that was what you were thinking, kenan.

I think my least favorite thing about these tragedies (besides the tragedies themselves, obv.) is having to hear that kind of talk for months following.

I overheard one of my co-workers down the hall reciting the "He's shooting at the CANS!" line from The Jerk. I don't mind a little gallows humor here and there, but that was way too soon.

― Pleasant Plains, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:43 (eighteen years ago)

heh Maybe.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:48 (eighteen years ago)

Kenan: they exist, certainly. There is more focus towards it being actual hunters/farmers however and the kinds of guns are fairly restricted... beyond that I couldn't say as I am not at all knowledgable about guns. And in all honesty I'm not comfortable talking about it on this thread.

― Trayce, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:54 (eighteen years ago)

xpost Sorry, the "heh" was purely for remembering that scene. :)

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:56 (eighteen years ago)

OK - for the last time, I'm not a troll, but me repeating this fact did not prevent rps from running to the moderators to have me silenced. Sorry I didn't make it clearer before that I am Roger Adultery / Fidelity.

I agree with the moderator I spoke to who unbarred me that this thread has gone off the rails a bit, so I welcome anyone to join me in separate thread about the political ramifications of this incident and gun control in general. This will keep things in good taste, or at least salvage what dignity this thread has left.

Regarding the filed off serial numbers, I can only say this: told you so.

― Manalishi, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:59 (eighteen years ago)

the wiki entry about gun politics in Australia seems fairly informative.

― Drooone, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:00 (eighteen years ago)

xpost Fuck you, dude, you're the only one I can see who has compromised the dignity of the thread. It's a thread about the incident, not about mourning. I think a little political discussion is not at all out of line. Don't play that card. You're the huge fucking fat hairy purple dick here, not anyone else.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:01 (eighteen years ago)

i thought you were a nude spok sort of troll, dude, no offense. however if i'd known it was you (whom i agree with on royal trux at least) i would have left it alone, so i'm sorry about the mod thread thing at least.

― rps, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:03 (eighteen years ago)

the wiki entry about gun politics in Australia seems fairly informative.

Yeah actually it all sounds almost exactly like American gun law.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:08 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah actually it all sounds almost exactly like American gun law.

I think in Australia we get the impression that it's easier for Americans to acquire more dangerous/deadlier weapons than in Australia.

― Drooone, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:13 (eighteen years ago)

Well, you certainly have less mass murders, but I won't say that correlation equals causation. :)

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:15 (eighteen years ago)

"But there's no connection -- and you'd be a fool and a Communist to make one -- between having a gun and shooting someone with it, and not having a gun and not shooting someone."

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:17 (eighteen years ago)

23 March 2007 @ 11:07 am

Don't want to think about it
Don't want to talk about it
I'm just so sick about it
Can't believe it's ending this way

Just so confused about it
Feeling the blues about it
I just can't do without ya
Tell me is this fair?

Is this the way it's really going down?
Is this how we say goodbye?

Resentment is an emotion of anger felt as a result of a real or imagined wrong done. The English word has become synonymous with anger and bitterness.

It can be an emotionally disturbing experience that is being felt again or relived in the mind.

Music: Justin Timberlake - What Goes Around...

― am0n, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:18 (eighteen years ago)

hey kenan cut it out

― lfam, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:22 (eighteen years ago)

ok, sorry.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:23 (eighteen years ago)

It disgusts me that some talking heads already looking to siphon the blame onto video games & hip-hop, as I just saw on MSNBC. Honestly, my stomach turns as I think how, in the face of such awful breaking news, these single-issue special-interest culture hygenists will rush into the breach to deliver their reactionary talking points while the wounds are still fresh.

― elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 02:09 (eighteen years ago)

how long have you lived in this country? you have three options: drink a whole shitload (what ILX does, mostly); move to a european country where you already know the language (which if you you drink enough

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:22 (eighteen years ago)

and buy a book you can still get get by with

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:22 (eighteen years ago)

and option 3: leave)

Leave the giant fat sweaty doomed motherfucker. Who wants to stand around and watch their sad fat gross-ass country have a horrible heart attack, like their sad fat father who didn't care to begin with. Fuck him, GET OUT,

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:27 (eighteen years ago)

LEAVE

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:28 (eighteen years ago)

Um. Ok?

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:29 (eighteen years ago)

oh shit sorry, wrong thread for about 45 minutes.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:31 (eighteen years ago)

Haha oh god, Kenan.

― Trayce, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:40 (eighteen years ago)

shit man, wrong thread in an awful way.

Hey who's really pissed off at me? Someone should show up and punch me. I need it, and god knows my friends won't do it. Fuck my friends.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:52 (eighteen years ago)

I'd love to have a good crack at you with a shovel, kenan. Does that count?

re: your unresolved issues wherein you liken the United States to a fat alcholic father, why don't you take your own advice?

When Bush got in the second time, a lot of ILXors were claiming that they were moving to Canada. I offered money and volunteered to leave ILX for one year to anyone who could show me proof of their relocation.

Surprise surprise, everyone stayed in the good ol' USA.

― Manalishi, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:57 (eighteen years ago)

You should go downstairs and ask your neighbor to punch you.

― Pleasant Plains, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:57 (eighteen years ago)

oh man.

I'm sorry.

I am sleeping now, and I'm sorry.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:58 (eighteen years ago)

Shit I'm embarrassed.

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 03:58 (eighteen years ago)

I'm tempted to ask what thread were you actually trying to post to, but yeah. Maybe a good night's rest would be a bit more helpful right now.

― Pleasant Plains, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:22 (eighteen years ago)

ha t'would be a fair question

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 04:24 (eighteen years ago)

i am so sad

― lfam, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 05:05 (eighteen years ago)

holy shit, the one thing that could make this situation worse? the Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist Church gang just announced they're going to protest the funerals of the victims.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 06:38 (eighteen years ago)

Shit...stupid assholes. Where did you find this? (is it on their actual site (which i have no intentions of ever going on)?)

And it goes with out saying, but this is so sad. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like there's much people can do except keep the victims' families in their hearts.

― Tape Store, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 06:49 (eighteen years ago)

One guy with a conceal-carry could have ended that in an instant.

― stephen, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 06:59 (eighteen years ago)

There's another thread for that, stephen.

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 07:03 (eighteen years ago)

So, what DID happen?

Apparently, the guy shot his girlfriend and the guy he thought she was seeing behind his back (other story: his girlfriend and a school adviser who was called in to break up the fight) - but that was the first shooting, why the hell did he have all that ammo with him? "I'll have nothing left to lose after that first incident, so I'm going to... blaze of glory & so on" ?

(of course nothing about this makes any kind of sense, but you still want to know what goes on inside the guy's head)

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 07:31 (eighteen years ago)

holy shit, the one thing that could make this situation worse? the Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist Church gang just announced they're going to protest the funerals of the victims.

-- kingfish, Monday, April 16, 2007 11:38 PM (1 hour ago)

wait, what? holy fucking shit, that fucking guy.

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 07:45 (eighteen years ago)

What are they going to say? God hates students?

Surely not that "this is god's revenge on the US for harboring gays" thing they use for natural disasters or wars where the perpetrator is some anonymous entity? This was one guy with a gun - if they use that schtick, they're saying he was some kind of divine agent, and therefore... their hero?

(of course nothing about this makes any kind of sense, but you still want to know what goes on inside the Westboro gang's heads)

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:12 (eighteen years ago)

Based on their "logic" that every death in Iraq is a blessing from God because it brings the Sodomite American Empire closer to doom, I wouldn't be surprised if they'll celebrate these deaths and their harbinger as God's tool.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:18 (eighteen years ago)

i mean, i know i'm just falling for their schtick, and should rise above etc etc, but those guys make me absolutely fucking apoplectic

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:28 (eighteen years ago)

their website is god hates america dot com.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:52 (eighteen years ago)

Suffice it to say that I'm thinking the Patriot Guard will probably be in full effect.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:57 (eighteen years ago)

Jesus, a guy walked into a campus and shot a load of people, in a state with feck all gun control? Who on earth could have predicted that? I mean, it's only had been happening with fairly regular frequency for, um, forty years.

The utterly asinine commentariat response (if more people owned guns then someone would have shot him) makes me wonder about the sanity of American political discourse. FFS.

― The Boyler, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:58 (eighteen years ago)

Re: Westboro Baptist Church

from godhatesamerica dot com:

WBC to Preach at Funerals of Virginia Tech Dead

WBC will preach at the funerals of the Virginia Tech students killed on campus during a shooting rampage April 16, 2007. You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. Your bloody tyrant Bush says he is 'horrified' by it all. You know nothing of horror -- yet. Your true horror is coming. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18).

Why did this happen, you ask? It's simple. Your military chose to shoot at the servants of God today, and all they got for their effort was terror. Then, the LORD your God sent a crazed madman to shoot at your children. Was God asleep while this took place? Was He on vacation? Of course not. He willed this to happen to punish you for assailing His servants.

Your military chose to shoot at the servants of God today?

What are they talking about?

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 09:27 (eighteen years ago)

Why is that bastard not regarded as a fucking terrorist, ffs.

― Trayce, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 09:40 (eighteen years ago)

Interesting question, made me wonder too, but it's because of the definition of terrorism:

Terrorism is a term used to describe violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians by groups or persons for political or ideological goals (fear in latin). Most definitions of terrorism include only those acts which are intended to create fear or "terror", are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a "madman" attack), and deliberately target "non-combatants" (wikipedia, terrorism)

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 09:56 (eighteen years ago)

trayce, what was his political goal?

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:41 (eighteen years ago)

oh, i'm sorry, i didn't read enough of thread first. thought you were talking about the shooter. i retract the question.

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:44 (eighteen years ago)

OH COME ON, who the f*ck is thinking up alliterations about a tragedy like this?

Death in the dorm, then carnage on campus

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:14 (eighteen years ago)

"Shooter" is such an American expression

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:16 (eighteen years ago)

I am Roger Adultery / Fidelity.

I fucking KNEW it! I always wondered what happened to the would-be "libertarian" contrarian voice of ILX!

― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:16 (eighteen years ago)

"The morning of North America's deadliest shooting dawns brisk and cold as snow swirls around the Virginia Tech campus. Students prepare for early-morning classes while others reach blearily for the snooze button."

(from that link I just posted)

LOL @ amateur novelists

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:17 (eighteen years ago)

(where is that alternate gun control thread, incidentally...?)

― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:17 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=40&threadid=53234#unread

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:19 (eighteen years ago)

"I fucking KNEW it! I always wondered what happened to the would-be "libertarian" contrarian voice of ILX!"

-- Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:16 PM (9 minutes ago)'

has don wiener weighed in on this?

― That one guy that quit, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:28 (eighteen years ago)

OH COME ON, who the f*ck is thinking up alliterations about a tragedy like this?

Death in the dorm, then carnage on campus

-- StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 11:14 (45 minutes ago)

what next, are journalists going to start wasting time SPELL CHECKING next???

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:01 (eighteen years ago)

YEAH! Someone ought to get a gun and shoo-

oh, wait, you're making fun of me. Nevermind.

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:10 (eighteen years ago)

ouch, guys. I think that's what they call "falling off the wagon."

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:19 (eighteen years ago)

Sorry - we were just keeping the thread warm until the real discussion starts again, leaving now.

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:21 (eighteen years ago)

"Happiness Is a Warm Thread"

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:22 (eighteen years ago)

I'm sorry, ILX. I'm no good drunk. No good at all. :(

― kenan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:23 (eighteen years ago)

― Beth Parker, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:34 (eighteen years ago)

I THOUGHT.

― Beth Parker, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:35 (eighteen years ago)

I should be more careful or I'll never get MY Pulitzer.

― Beth Parker, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:35 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think I've seen a single newspaper lead this morning that doesn't have swirling, or otherwise soft/blowing, snow in it. Hmph

― stet, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:40 (eighteen years ago)

"snow is general all over ireland..."

― ryan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:46 (eighteen years ago)

journalists are pretty bad at creative writing. if they weren't, they'd be novelists.

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:47 (eighteen years ago)

Add journalists to the list of public servants who, like jury members, should be appointed by lottery and serve a brief term every several years (cops too, of course). Any craven ambition disqualifies you.

― Beth Parker, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:50 (eighteen years ago)

"It was a clear and stormy morning; the snow fell in torrents--except at occasional intervals"

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:50 (eighteen years ago)

During which kids went apeshit with guns.

― Beth Parker, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:51 (eighteen years ago)

What about the shooter's parents? What would you do? Enter a monastery for the rest of your life? No. You'd have to give your life over to some act of service that benefited more than your own tortured soul.

Everyone will be assuming that since the boy was Asian the parents must have pressured him. Ye olde stereotype. Ach. Poor people.

― Beth Parker, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:54 (eighteen years ago)

That stereotype is irritating because odds are that the fact that dude was in college points more towards parental pressuring than the fact that he was Asian does.

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:56 (eighteen years ago)

NPR just aired a piece about this—some journalist who'd reported on the Columbine shootings was drawing comparisons and holding forth about her memories and emotions, and I though, jesus, this woman started spinning this into a way of getting on the fucking air—advancing her career—on the back of this tragedy, as soon as the first news reports trickled in. Rubbing her hands together with glee. I turned it off after she said "what sticks in my memory are the swirling snowflakes..." OH FUCK YOU AND YOUR PULITZER FANTASIES YOU COLD-BLOODED GHOUL.

Maybe she was going for an Oscar. I mean, seriously, she's human, she's a writer (or speaker, y'know what I mean) and she obviously isn't just going to rattle off facts. To each his/her own but this is about finding some human/emotional angle (cause we're not talking about stocks or whatever). How do YOU know she's cold-blooded ghoul? I dunno, this is all extremely tragic.

― nathalie, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:03 (eighteen years ago)

... And y'know, when I saw that cellphone clip I was looking at the snowflakes falling down as well, thinking, man, this is so fucking tragic. But I ain't a writer so the words forming in my head were all a bit trite.

― nathalie, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:05 (eighteen years ago)

But writing about the snow = making sure there's a doll or teddy bear in front of the collapsed/burnt out building = pointing out that children died in a car crash, isn't it? It's like "this isn't bad enough as it is, maybe it'll sound even worse if we describe how idyllic and quiet the scene was"

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:10 (eighteen years ago)

in front of the collapsed/burnt out building (in a picture, that is)

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:11 (eighteen years ago)

nathalie OTM

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:12 (eighteen years ago)

the snow seemed kind of surreal to me. But then that's probably b/c I was surprised to see it snowing somewhere in mid-april.

(fwiw I think the writers are just trying to convey the atmosphere of that campus before the violence jarred everything.)

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:12 (eighteen years ago)

StanM, or maybe it's just, uh, setting the scene?

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:13 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:13 (eighteen years ago)

Well, sure. What is wrong with that, Stan? Downplaying it? "Okay, 33 people got killed at VTech, but I checked and in that same time 4090494 people tragically died in ... Hey, life goes on, shit happens." It's about showing how fucking tragic this is. Realizing that if that guy hadn't gotten into a fight, this wouldn't have happened? I don't know, but, like Mickey said, it's about setting a scene, showing the contrast.

― nathalie, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:14 (eighteen years ago)

OK, maybe I'm too paranoid about that sort of thing, but I see techniques to try and manipulate our emotions and I just don't like that. (on TV: zooming in on people's faces when tears are expected, for instance)

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:17 (eighteen years ago)

Well, of course it's about manipulation! That's what the media does! But at the end of the day it's just plain and simple a tragic event. I didn't know of Beth's ghoulish journalist talking about the snowflakes, yet that was what I noticed as well. I still like to think that some people in the media are human and connect to that. Just rattling of facts won't win any (or as much) viewers (as making stories). People like stories. Even sad ones. It's all a bit sad really, every angle of it (the story itself, but also the media exploiting that).

― nathalie, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:20 (eighteen years ago)

It's not that it's wrong to notice that—it was the blatant SPIN into SPOT that bugged me. I don't know. Lately many people on NPR strike me this way—less interested in the subject matter than they are in their radio-career advancement. Especially the crafters of those artful essays. It's like this ambition pheromone that comes wafting out through the radio.
The only time media folks ever move me is when they're caught up in things, like those newscasters in the studio in Hoboken who were crying and ducking for cover when the towers were hit. The careerist masks came off, for a brief second, and it communicated more about that event than anything else I saw.

― Beth Parker, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:24 (eighteen years ago)

ok, nathalie, you OTM.

I like news facts and I like stories, but they don't necessarily have to mix, I don't need a story to help me imagine how bad something was. But I can imagine that it can help, so I'll pipe down about it and just accept it, I guess.

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:26 (eighteen years ago)

we live in such a mediated culture I suppose that critiquing coverage is more comfortable than confronting the event itself. and there's no way to report something like this and not seem manipulative, just writing an obituary is horrible, imagine calling up survivors and asking for comment, there's no way to do it w/o feeling ghoulish.

― m coleman, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:31 (eighteen years ago)

critiquing coverage is more comfortable than confronting the event itself.

That is very OTM. Especially in the first couple of hours/days, when the facts about the event itself aren't even clear but the coverage continues nevertheless.

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:34 (eighteen years ago)

What I was wondering last night was: how do the police go about breaking the news to the killer's family? Do they give condolences and then say... "but uh, here's the difficult thing.. We think - we can't yet be sure but we think - uh, that he might actually have been the gunman.."?

How sure do you have to be before you announce the possibility?

― Nicholas Passant, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:37 (eighteen years ago)

They storm in with (or without) a search warrant to look for clues first, I fear.

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:39 (eighteen years ago)

Wouldn't it be great if the TVs all went black?
You're right, of course, m coleman, I'm pointing fingers just as much as the people who are getting worked up about the school's failure to warn. Blaming is bad. Mea Culpa.
And once in a great while I actually LIKE one of those NPR on-air essays.

― Beth Parker, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:40 (eighteen years ago)

They've announced him now.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:40 (eighteen years ago)

"Police have named a student who shot dead at least 30 people at a US university as Cho Seung-hui, a 23-year-old from South Korea."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6563565.stm

― Nicholas Passant, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:40 (eighteen years ago)

no, beth, it wouldn't

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:40 (eighteen years ago)

I just walked by a tv showing the press conference in our cafeteria and they've confirmed that the gun used in the dorm room shooting was (unsurprisingly) one of the ones used later. They also had the shooter's name and identified him as being from South Korea. How that's going to get taken out of context, who knows.

― mh, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:41 (eighteen years ago)

Whoops, bbc beat me to the punch.

― mh, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:41 (eighteen years ago)

I wonder how the fact that he isn't an American will be handled...

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:42 (eighteen years ago)

his family lives nearby to the campus and other family lives in Maryland. He was an English major.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:43 (eighteen years ago)

... I'm guessing hysterically

― Tom D., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:43 (eighteen years ago)

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOWW!

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:46 (eighteen years ago)

it's blocked here at work. who's going to look him up on facebook first?

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:47 (eighteen years ago)

There's little I want to say about any of this -- working at a college campus as I do, you can bet what the chief topic of discussion was at work yesterday.

That said, one of the professors who died, Liviu Librescu, sounded like a remarkable man down the line.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:47 (eighteen years ago)

Yes Ned, I can imagine what was discussed ad naseum at work yesterday. I feel so . . .over-saturated right now.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:48 (eighteen years ago)

Well, here's how the compassionate students on facebook have handled this. A search for his name brings up three groups:

Group:
fuck cho seung-hui
Group:
KILL FUCKERS LIKE Cho Seung-Hui
Group:
4/16/07

― mh, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:52 (eighteen years ago)

That he's not American makes it even more strange. I dunno, to be from another country trying to score illegal guns in Blacksburg, Va., it just seems so remote.

― Mark Rich@rdson, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:55 (eighteen years ago)

Created 4/16 - yesterday?

― Eazy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:56 (eighteen years ago)

why Mark?

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:57 (eighteen years ago)

They also had the shooter's name and identified him as being from South Korea. How that's going to get taken out of context, who knows.

now they can blame chan-wook park and his revenge trilogy

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:00 (eighteen years ago)

Well, Blacksburg is pretty isolated, so it seems like you'd have to do some work to acquire illegal guns, and if you're here on a student visa or whatever, it just seems like it would be that much more difficult, another obstacle. Or maybe not, perhaps it's just a matter of knowing the right person.

― Mark Rich@rdson, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:01 (eighteen years ago)

Note that group-making is some sort of fad that people seem to use to make statements -- by default, facebook will notify your friends with a message like "mike has joined the group 'I like drinking beers at the cubs game'" so it's mostly nonsense, but whatever.

I see there is now also the additional group, "Screw Cho Seung-Hui" for those too sensitive for the previous one.

xx-post:

Although he wasn't American by citizenship, I believe I read somewhere (and it'll probably turn out to be false) that his family lives somewhere near the campus. I'm not sure how this will play out, but get ready for amateur cultural observations.

― mh, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:01 (eighteen years ago)

he was a permanent legal resident and his family lived in Centerville, WV

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:03 (eighteen years ago)

well, they found a receipt for at least one of the gun purchases, so i dunno how illegal the obtaining will have been. we'll see.

talked to my folks for a long time last night. everything there is extremely surreal. lots of rumors flying around -- i have an uncle on the police force -- all day long, and there's an implicit knowledge that blacksburg will never be the same after this. this isn't a place that can absorb a shock like this and move on. though blacksburg and vt are very intertwined, there are many ways in which they are separate -- corning and the arsenal, which supplies munitions to the military, are the two other big employers after vt -- but no longer. before vt, blacksburg was just another appalachian town, indistinguishable from floyd or pembroke or eggleston or any of the other smaller, neighboring towns. but the college changed that, of course, just as this has. honestly, three of the biggest events in blacksburg's history are vt-related: the founding of vpi (vt's original name) back in the 19th century, the arrival of michael vick to the tech football team in 1999 (you think i am exaggerating, but all of blacksburg's changes in the last decade are attributable to him) and now this. talking to my father last night, he said with complete disbelief, "i saw katie couric on the way home." there's no way a town can ever be ready for this, but blacksburg in particular was not.

― YGS, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:04 (eighteen years ago)

the arrival of michael vick to the tech football team in 1999 (you think i am exaggerating, but all of blacksburg's changes in the last decade are attributable to him)

Not to sound flippant given this thread's subject, but could you explain more when you have the time?

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:06 (eighteen years ago)

ned otm, guy sounds like a real hero.

Israeli professor of Romanian origin Liviu Librescu numbers among those killed in the Virginia Tech University massacre on Monday. According to the International Herald Tribune, Librescu sacrificed his life to save his students. He had blocked the access to his class so that students [could] run from the attacker.

still aghast that so many were killed with a pair of handguns.

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:08 (eighteen years ago)

Blacksburg is pretty isolated, so it seems like ~~you'd have to do some work~~ it'd be pretty fucking easy to acquire illegal guns

(fixed based on my experiences growing up in an isolated town)

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:09 (eighteen years ago)

Librescu sacrificed his life to save his students. He had blocked the access to his class so that students [could] run from the attacker.

gah. . .the story in this paper this morning talked to his wife about this report and she still didn't know if he was dead or alive. fucked up. . .

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:11 (eighteen years ago)

Pretty good opinion piece in the VT student newspaper.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:12 (eighteen years ago)

gah. . .the story in this paper this morning talked to his wife about this report and she still didn't know if he was dead or alive. fucked up. . .

Especially sad since he had seen enough evil in his life first as a Holocaust survivor and then living under Ceaucescu's regime. His story would be remarkable and moving just for that alone.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:14 (eighteen years ago)

sure. basically, vt's football team started becoming good in 1993, and gradually came to be the identity for the school (in 84 we had bruce smith -- later a #1 pick in the nfl draft but that team sucked)(we also had a decent college basketball team with a few future nba players, including dell curry and bimbo coles). before that, tech was just an agricultural and engineering school, without any sort of national profile or status. but michael vick, from the second he came onto campus as a freshman, made vt one of the biggest teams in college football -- a kajillion dollar industry -- and his freshman year he lead the team to an eventual loss in the national championship game. but what he did was he brought the media to blacksburg. espn started nationally televising games, the press was always on hand for another amazing vick play and it got so big during his two years that the town's infrastructure started changing to accommodate the attention:

a) they rebuilt the football stadium for more luxury boxes & seats
b) they gutted what was a quaint and lively downtown for more parking garages and more bars
c) housing developments popped up everywhere in the expectation that more folks would be moving to blacksburg after seeing how utopian it was on those thursday night espn broadcasts
d) hotels and chain restaurants began to multiply in christiansburg, the town in between blacksburg and the interstate
e) they constructed a new bypass around blacksburg to enable an easy exit ramp right into the football stadium from the interstate

basically, blacksburg started being built around football. it is a college football town, more than anything. hokie stone -- that rock you are seeing every building made out of -- is the town mineral. the town is covered in hokie bird statues. and none of this happened before vick. but with him came the lure of big-time college football money, and a small town, as recently as the '80s much more of a grass-and-ass hippie hangout, reconfigured itself to accept it.

― YGS, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:14 (eighteen years ago)

Fascinating, and thanks.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:19 (eighteen years ago)

the arrival of michael vick to the tech football team in 1999 (you think i am exaggerating, but all of blacksburg's changes in the last decade are attributable to him)

ha! my cousin who graduated from VT in the mid-90's said basically the same thing.

― will, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:32 (eighteen years ago)

Great stuff YGS, thanks.

― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:51 (eighteen years ago)

holy shit, the one thing that could make this situation worse? the Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist Church gang just announced they're going to protest the funerals of the victims.

-- kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 06:38 (8 hours ago)

I would actually seriously consider driving up there to counter-protest. Blacksburg's not that far, and these people disgust me.

― bernard snowy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:00 (eighteen years ago)

Here's the personal homepage of the German instructor who was shot in the head while teaching a class. If anything his passing resonates with me the most -- partially on a superficial level (long hair and glasses, f'r instance) -- but more importantly terms of his age, his interests, the sense that he had a clear life away from the school pursuing other things he loved, in this case art and design.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:01 (eighteen years ago)

Our university president just sent out an email about all this and included our information on dealing with armed subjects. This particularly struck me:

4. If the armed subject comes into your class or office:
• There is no one procedure the authorities can recommend in
this situation.

wow. uh thanks.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:27 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, there were very big changes over the course of the four years I was at VT (I started there in 1999). Everything became centered around football.

I don't think the events have really hit me yet. I had classes in Norris Hall and passed through it all the time, yet I feel strangely disconnected. I guess I just can't imagine what it must have been like; it seems too insane.

― Vinnie, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

Jesus Christ.

xpost

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

4. If the armed subject comes into your class or office:
• There is no one procedure the authorities can recommend in
this situation.

wow. uh thanks.

-- Ms Misery, Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:27 AM (6 minutes ago)

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)

I don't often think wielding baseball bats are a good idea for counterprotest, but for Fred Phelps' "family" I would make an exception.

― Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

Well, a satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point.

― ghost rider, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

yeah there's something to be said for hunkering down and hoping you're lucky and also for running like hell. id not want to take responsibility for telling someone to do either one...

― ryan, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:41 (eighteen years ago)

beartrap 8080

― Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:42 (eighteen years ago)

modestmickey can you stop being a total ass for a few minutes?

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:43 (eighteen years ago)

are you really surprised? what did you expect? of course there's a million circumstances with a million best actions to take. would you have preferred some airline pamphlet-esque, false sense of comfort inducing crap?

Yes Mickey, I have a brain. I realize this. The pamphlet then goes on to describe different things you could do but b/c the fact that the police force refuse to recommend any course of action brings home how extreme the situation those people were in. It was a bit unsettling for me to see that in print my own employer's saftey materials.

Glad I could provide you with a zing moment.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:44 (eighteen years ago)

cry about it

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:45 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:45 (eighteen years ago)

Okay, it's a day, time for the follow-up ugliness, blame, and petty jockeying for issue position. What should we blame this on? gun ownership? video games? decadent american culture? the fact that we don't have "God in the classrooms" anymore?

Should I keep count of how many punditshits somehow figure out how to link this and the Imus thing or the Duke lacrosse case?

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:47 (eighteen years ago)

Rosie's big mouth, I reckon.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:47 (eighteen years ago)

I wish people would blame it on mental illness and focus on fixing that for a change.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:48 (eighteen years ago)

plz don't do that kingfish, i'll just have to kill myself

ms misery 808080808080808080

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

Oh God, on her post yesterday about this, Debbie Schlussel(the blonde punditchick with the heavily airbrushed and prominently featured pic on her website), was freaking out about what if this was a muslim terrorist, and doesn't this show muslim terrorists how easy it is to take out american college students?

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:54 (eighteen years ago)

why do you read all that crap kingfish?

stuff like that winds me up so easily I have to steer clear.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:55 (eighteen years ago)

a gross fascination with how people grab anything that feeds into their pet idea(Ken Ham blaming this on atheism/evolution, for example), even when it's completely divorced from any actual connection to the thing. One of the results of this is that it crowds out actual knowledgable dialogue about this kinda thing. (like actually talking about mental health)

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:58 (eighteen years ago)

kingfish otm

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:00 (eighteen years ago)

I wish people would blame it on mental illness and focus on fixing that for a change.

part of my fascination with these types of events stems from a project I did on the biological bases of violence. it's disturbing how little work is being done in this area. people moan and wring their hands and cast blame about but never seem to call for scientific explorations of the causes of violent aggression.

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:00 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah but does anyone really pay attention to these out-there bloggers? I imagine only Fox News picking up on anything they say.

xpost

see previous discussions about American's distrust of science.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:01 (eighteen years ago)

So, he bought the two guns legally in Virginia. Do guns need to have serial numbers intact to be legally sold?

― Eazy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:02 (eighteen years ago)

also, I'm guessing there's no money in it.

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:03 (eighteen years ago)

Yes. I'm assuming he filed the serial numbers off in order to make his identification difficult.

xpost

― John Justen, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:04 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, i'm not understanding why the populace of this thread are assuming that he purchased the guns with the numbers filed off already--do you know how easy it is to do that AFTER you purchase it, legally?

i would've thought that'd have at least occurred to roger tho it wouldn't have fit his "guarantee" that the guns were illegally purchased.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:08 (eighteen years ago)

Ms Misery, way off the mark. Halperin, the political director of ABC News, recently said the most important person in the blogosphere is fucking Matt "siren.gif" Drudge. these guys have deeply, deeply infiltrated the mainstream media dialogue. you may not see too many people like Michelle Malkin, her head prominently on display spouting nonsense, but the ideas these guys generate end up everywhere.

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

I've heard of Matt Drudge so am not surprised that the mainstream media picks him up. Most of the people Kingfish mentions I've never heard and really question how much of a "pundit" they are. (I'm not picking on him here nor am I designating myself as an expert.)

I think everyone would agree having a blog does not make you a political/social expert and I'm curious as to how much these self-made pundits actually influence mainstream news.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

Halperin, the political director of ABC News, recently said the most important person in the blogosphere is fucking Matt "siren.gif" Drudge.

ok, mickey, i don't want to be rude or anything, but when you're telling Sam she's wrong in discussing actual network or newspaper news by responding that someone claimed Matt Drudge is important IN THE BLOGOSPHERE, i think you've shot yourself in your own foot. just fyi.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:17 (eighteen years ago)

also, I'm guessing there's no money in it.

-- Edward III, Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:03 PM (9 minutes ago)

There is if you say something outrageous like "rape is biologically justified"!

― jessie monster, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

please let's not turn this into a debate on rape, it was just a really easy joke.

― jessie monster, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

OK, so I have just seen the letter of condolence the Principal of my institution sent to an alumnus who is now a professor at Virginia Tech. Written in Comic Sans.

― Madchen, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

That is perhaps the most poignant tragedy of all.

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

ok, mickey, i don't want to be rude or anything, but when you're telling Sam she's wrong in discussing actual network or newspaper news by responding that someone claimed Matt Drudge is important IN THE BLOGOSPHERE, i think you've shot yourself in your own foot. just fyi.

-- the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:17 PM (3 minutes ago)

i couldn't disagree more. the point is that drudge is VERY important to the most important, most influential people in the mainstream political media. drudge is a great archetype of the crazies kingfish relishes in. and the media loves him. they get stories from him. they follow his leads, take his scoops.

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

in other words, the statement that "I imagine only Fox News picking up on anything they say." could not be farther from the truth.

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

the point is that drudge is VERY important to the most important, most influential people in the mainstream political media.

Did he say he or the blogosphere was very important to ABC? 'Cause otherwise he was just stating a fact (e.g. Drudge is important to bloggers)

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:26 (eighteen years ago)

Hey mickey, one of these days you should just start a thread about you and all your interesting and diverting opinions.

― John Justen, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:26 (eighteen years ago)

mickey you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

― ghost rider, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:27 (eighteen years ago)

part of my fascination with these types of events stems from a project I did on the biological bases of violence. it's disturbing how little work is being done in this area. people moan and wring their hands and cast blame about but never seem to call for scientific explorations of the causes of violent aggression.

-- Edward III, Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:00 AM (25 minutes ago)

...what kind of work did you do?

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:27 (eighteen years ago)

Ms Misery, sorry if my write up was ambigious, I see how it was now -- he said that Druge was important to ABC News. this took place over several editorial articles written by Halperin, radio interviews, such as one with Hugh Hewitt, fellow conservative blogosphere psycho, and blog posts.

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:30 (eighteen years ago)

ghost rider, oh ok, thanks for correcting me! maybe you can make a better point with some ridiculous huge tattoo

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:30 (eighteen years ago)

Actually he probably could.

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

and John Justen, uh, this is not an "out there" opinion at all. I'm sure kingfish agrees. do a Google search for "halperin drudge" and see for yourself. or you can just be a sound-byte asshole. hate to disrupt the status quo.

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

Undoubtedly.

HAH XXP

― Laurel, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

halperin is just a talking head now, he has no authority and next-to-no credibility anymore. hi dere 2004 pls go back to j-school etc etc why the fuck am i on this thread boxcar

― ghost rider, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

lol bellybutton ring wtf mickey

― ghost rider, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

srsly mickey that shit ain't marlboros

― bernard snowy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

I don't want to turn this into a thread about rape, either, but I do think popular reactions to events like this are in some ways analagous to reactions to rape. No one can quite wrap their heads around how to stop rapists from coming into being, so people talk about what rape victims should have been wearing, how women shouldn't go out alone, etc. I mean, I don't know how to stop rape from happening, either, I get why people focus on what potential victims should be doing, i.e. a fantasy of control through prevention, but it doesn't really get at the root.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

def. boxcar.

I told myself I would stay off this thread today but work is just way too boring.

xpost

It definitely doesn't get at the root but from a "what can you do to not be this person" talking about safety is the easiest answer.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

Actually shooting the girlfriend isn't very different from rape to the extent that both offenses are about power and control. I mean, there's sex (of a sort) involved in one, and some kind of grief/panic/heartbreak involved in the other, but power is (arguably, I think) the root of both.

― Laurel, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

What Halperin said was "Matt Drudge rules our world," implying network news.

Halperin also wrote Bob Dole's 1996 nomination speech (as well as some novels and a few good short stores).

― Eazy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:35 (eighteen years ago)

mickey when you told me off on that other thread i thought to myself this is a man who knows how to win friends & influence people on the internet but now i am starting to think perhaps i should not have taken your opinion so seriously

― deeznuts, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:35 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, like I said, I get why it happens but it does sort of function as an immediate level of abstraction from what actually happened.

xpost to Ms. Misery

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

These kind of stories make me feel a little dead inside. I know that reporters are just doing their job but...

From one of the student blogs:

Before I go to bed, though, I want to talk more about the media. In the eagerness for the story, for portraying our thoughts and feelings, it seems to me that they have fed on our emotions like a bat sucks blood. I stood by the small make-shift memorial that was set up on the drillfield and looked around at the small crowd before me. At that time there were about a dozen people there, and the majority of whom were actually media waiting for a good shot.

This wouldn't have concerned me if they had kept their distance in respect to us, but instead, photographers hovered over the memorial taking dozens and dozens of pictures. Two students held each other for several minutes in front of the memorial and a photographer took several pictures of them-click-click-click-, twisting and turning the camera so the world can see them in the right perspective, which apparently was quite literally in their face. In fact I believe he even got a few side shots of me-- I glared at him and he immediately turned away. As the two students left, he chased after them and took out his notebook to question them.

While there is still much raw emotion about, the media wants to grasp and mold it into the drama the American people are craving. It is understandable, but it appears to be at a sacrifice of our respect. When more people are out paying respect later today, I hope the media will be a less obvious thorn to remind us of our sorrow and that we can begin the healing process.

http://ntcoolfool.livejournal.com/102740.html#cutid1

― Roz, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

(Oh, fuck, I got it wrong. Mark Helprin (novelist) wrote Bob Dole's 1996 speech and is a fellow at the Claremont Institute. Mark Halperin has been Political Director of ABC News for the past decade. Two different guys.)

― Eazy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:39 (eighteen years ago)

Tens of journalists and camera crews outside his family's house now...

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:43 (eighteen years ago)

ghost rider, and halperin is the only case i assume, and there's nothing else similar to it, totally an isolated incident! never, for example, do faux scandals concocted in conservative blogs make it onto the front page of the nyt, hypothetically speaking!

by the way, i am shocked and appalled that you would choose to be an internet funny man on this thread. don't you know this is a tragedy?

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

go fuck yourself you're an idiot get some more hideous tattoos 8080808080 etc fuck you

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

It certainly took John Derbyshire long enough to raise [

As NRO's designated chickenhawk, let me be the one to ask: Where was the spirit of self-defense here? Setting aside the ludicrous campus ban on licensed conceals, why didn't anyone rush the guy? It's not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons. He had two handguns for goodness' sake—one of them reportedly a .22.

At the very least, count the shots and jump him reloading or changing hands. Better yet, just jump him. Handguns aren't very accurate, even at close range. I shoot mine all the time at the range, and I still can't hit squat. I doubt this guy was any better than I am. And even if hit, a .22 needs to find something important to do real damage—your chances aren't bad.

Yes, yes, I know it's easy to say these things: but didn't the heroes of Flight 93 teach us anything? As the cliche goes—and like most cliches. It's true—none of us knows what he'd do in a dire situation like that. I hope, however, that if I thought I was going to die anyway, I'd at least take a run at the guy

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

*to get stupid (can't type today)

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

Mickey, I know it's distressing, but no one cares what you think, and no one else is interested in what you have to say about the matter. Get the hint.

― John Justen, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

That's not entirely accurate. Lots of people care what he says so they can make fun of him. Just sayin'.

― dan m, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

Also, he really is full of shit.

― dan m, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

...what kind of work did you do?

a presentation and a paper. overview of the history of the scientific study of human aggression (which is so minimal there isn't even a fancy latin name for it). classification system for violent acts. human vs. animal violence. case studies in mass murder. schools of thought and current trends in research.

there's a term the FBI have for being negatively affected by casework, "vicarious victimization." true dat. the project was some heart of darkness shit and I was glad to be done with it.

in line with jessie's comment, it's interesting how much research (or even discussion) gets tanked because of racial/sexual bias issues. researching violence is a politically-charged hot potato.

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

John Justen, welcome to the internet

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

modestmickey no one is going to listen to what you're saying, regardless of whether you're right or not, as long as you keep behaving like a cockfarmer, is the point here.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

Tracer Hand, please go back and find me the threads where i was nice, friendly, and reasonable, and people responded in the same way to me. i must have forgotten to check back at them and see how it turned out.

irony of people on ilx calling me out for not being sensitive enough... seriously, fuck you all.

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:54 (eighteen years ago)

ok, just got back from meeting. Thing about blogger heads is that chumps like instapundit or malkin are now invited on fox news as serious cat commentators, and you have douchebags like victor davis hanson or hugh hewitt having broadcast outlets, or getting airtime on Rush.

All these broadcast avenues are direct channels into the current U.S. admin, who will go out of their way to find some random clueless apparatchik dumbfuck who'll tell them what they want to hear in order to justify whatever whim floats thru the calcium tanks sitting atop their shoulders. I mean, who gives a fuck what hacks like michael cricton say? we should, 'cuz the guy gets quoted as gospel by the rightwing noise machine and even met with the president for serious climate discussion.

Hell, Howard Kurtz reps for Malkin on CNN now, fer chrissakes.

And Drudge had his own MSNBC show briefly, and still has a syndicated radio show. Dude has a direct line in with the RNC, which is why he gets all the bleeding edge stuff 12-24 hours just to leak things out there and get people talking. Once you get people talking, it's a lot easier for Fox or Rush or whatever to start talking about this thing as serious topics(Obama in a madrassa?!11).

And then more bullshit narratives get pushed out there, gobbled up by both the 30% crowd and those who "want to have both sides of the story" and chumps like David Broder.

Ok, i hope this post is coherent.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

mickey, welcome to the internet

― ghost rider, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

it's run by matt drudge, king of the information age

― ghost rider, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

Cho Seung-hui is believed to have been clinically depressed, and was on medication. He had also recently been reported to act out violently by setting a fire in a dorm room and "stalking" women. Police recovered a note in Seung-hui's dorm room that contained incessant "rambling" about "rich students", "deceitful charlatans", and "debauchery" at Virginia Tech. Seung-hui was an English major, and was recommended to counseling by his professors for his dark, and eerie creative writings.

― MRZBW, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070417vtech-shootings,1,176236.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true

― MRZBW, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

Oh yeah, and i forget to add examples: VDH is on NPR as serious commentator, and thinktank fuckhead loonies now feed arbitrary policy suggestions directly to the Decider(see Kagan, Fred).

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

plus, peruse enough of this shit, and you'll find stuff like Phyllis Schlafly of all people writing about the harmful effects of out-sourcing, in a column i largely agree with.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:01 (eighteen years ago)

the brain rot has already begun with you then, i see

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:03 (eighteen years ago)

Seung-hui was an English major, and was recommended to counseling by his professors for his dark, and eerie creative writings.

probably quite a few ilxors who fit this profile btw

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)

It takes hold at a young age

xp

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

uh

http://img.ringlyrics.com/34qo6xj.gif

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

way to go funny people of ilx

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:12 (eighteen years ago)

dramatica is in the house

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

4/7 chan is in the house. And there's this.

The note included a rambling list of grievances, according to sources. They said Cho also died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on one of his arms.

― MRZBW, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:14 (eighteen years ago)

MRZBW your link is subscriber only. What's on it?

From the AP:
One law enforcement official said Cho's backpack contained a receipt for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol. Cho held a green card, meaning he was a legal, permanent resident, federal officials said. That meant he was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of a felony.

― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:15 (eighteen years ago)

I am too slow for the chans, I gotta wait 'til it hits ED

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:17 (eighteen years ago)

argh guys please stop posting this asshole shit. this is the thing, being aware of reprehensible shit John Derbyshire has written DOESN'T DO ANYTHING. it's like my dad obsessively watching fox news just to hear all the nasty shit they say about muslims (i.e. him). it's like some kind of contrarian self flagellating porn.

also this is relentlessly OTM - obsessively farming the righty blogs to see what new outrageous thing they've said isn't "keeping informed" or "knowing the opposition," it's self-flagellating bizarre narcissism

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)

The link was public a few minutes ago. Just a bit more info than what i quoted.

― MRZBW, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:19 (eighteen years ago)

blogs are already claiming dude was a muslim terrorist because of 'ismail ax' (lol hebrew) and the hate for 'debauchery' (cuz in ppl in america always ranting about debauchery are muslims rite)

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:20 (eighteen years ago)

i wonder if he wrote it to fuck with people? i wish i had been the first to know so i could have googled it before it hit the blogs.

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:22 (eighteen years ago)

also this is relentlessly OTM - obsessively farming the righty blogs to see what new outrageous thing they've said isn't "keeping informed" or "knowing the opposition," it's self-flagellating bizarre narcissism

Cute.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:23 (eighteen years ago)

Results 1 - 9 of 9 for "Ismail Ax".

― Eazy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:24 (eighteen years ago)

not knowing about stuff is the new awareness

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:25 (eighteen years ago)

but reading John Derbyshire's totally predictable "what a bunch of pussies" response to the shootings isn't really knowing about stuff, is it?

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:26 (eighteen years ago)

Ned I knew you'd take umbrage at that but I call 'em like I see 'em! it's one thing to keep abreast of currents - to be informed - it's quite another to make sure you get your daily dose of it

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

Self flagellation

― Bnad, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

generally i find liberals who dont engage in 'self-flagellating narcissism' are pollyanna utopians who dont realize the extent of opposition they face - i read shit, even the stupid shit, at the same time as the rightwingers, so when it comes up at the watercooler the next day i'm not left flustered and stammering, and so eventually i can form a coherent picture of this mindset and respond to that

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

Ethan quite relentlessly OTM -- especially that first part.

Meantime, I honestly hadn't realized Nikki Giovanni teaches there.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:30 (eighteen years ago)

ethan otm

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:31 (eighteen years ago)

also because i find a lot of it really funny & entertaining, but i dont deny that - if it takes that to engage people further politically, good

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:31 (eighteen years ago)

Domain Name: ISMAILAX.COM
Registrar: GO DADDY SOFTWARE, INC.
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
Name Server: NS45.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Name Server: NS46.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Status: clientRenewProhibited
Status: clientTransferProhibited
Status: clientUpdateProhibited
Updated Date: 17-apr-2007
Creation Date: 17-apr-2007
Expiration Date: 17-apr-2008

― Dom Passantino, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)

okay, most of my ire in my "stop posting this" post would be more properly directed at Derbyshire, but I just think wrt certain well-established crazy rightwingers, I don't need to keep reading to know what's up. like one time on LGF was enough for me to get the general drift.

I am totally pollyannaish, though, that's fair.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)

yeah the funny and entertaining part I buy - it's the notion that one must keep up with the daily thought patterns of one's adversaries, that there's something noble or necessary in doing so, that strikes me as self-congratulatory horseshit

but what do I know, here I am posting to ilx again so like whatever works right

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:34 (eighteen years ago)

also, I am mostly thinking of my dad's unhealthy relationship with Fox News and projecting it on this thread, which isn't fair or necessarily accurate, but I get the idea sometimes that he fantasizes that he is enacting oppositional politics of some sort simply by watching Fox News, and I find that weirdly utopian, too.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:35 (eighteen years ago)

yeah i dont think you can really point the narcissistic masochist finger at anyone when we all continue posting on ilx

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:36 (eighteen years ago)

did I not just say that

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:36 (eighteen years ago)

but y'know game recognize game 'n' all

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:37 (eighteen years ago)

xp yeah but remember he's overwhelmed by millions of angry white males who also think theyre engaging in oppositional politics by watching fox news - sometimes i always thank them for enacting a political version of the old porn-prevents-rape argument

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:37 (eighteen years ago)

i read some of those righty blogs to see where the other side is coming from and sometimes i agree with what some of 'em are saying, and it's probably a good thing to remember that these righties aren't evil supervillains (which plays into the whole underdog/martyr syndrome a lot of lefties have). which isn't to say righties don't have it too.

― rps, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:39 (eighteen years ago)

They all have the same "I condone/do not condone killing criminals but I do not condone/do condone killing the unborn" dichotomy though, left or right. YES ALL OF THEM. Which makes them crazy. ALL OF THEM.

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:41 (eighteen years ago)

and people who don't care are crazy because LOOK AT THE WORLD and people who don't fall into eitehr category are crazy because they probably are the kinds of people who invent flying spaghetti monsters.

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

It is not crazy to be against capital punishment and in favour of abortion.

― Ned Trifle II, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:45 (eighteen years ago)

Also, I pay attention to these guys b/c we still live in an age where american politics and american media are easily influenced by radical types claiming to champion traditional values. The shit they talk about begins to flow upward, like a shit-clogged toilet backing up and oh look, now you have it all over the bathroom floor. A lot of these guys are attached to the arm that the usual suspects are; you can get a lot of talking points to the public by this route. Enough of the assholes chattering about somehing and it becomes A Story, and you get corporate media types talking about it b/c "well, this is something everybody is talking about!" e.g. the shit that's spread out there about Obama. I mean, fuck, you have LOU DOBBS on fucking cnn going on about Aztlan, and feeding into to all the paranoid and fairly racist fears that a lot of the lower-level bottom feeders have been stirring around. You think that Terri Schaivo wouldn't have blown up the way it did(with congressmembers & dubya coming back from holiday just to pass very select laws) w/o these assholes making enough noise about it?

Plus, it's interesting and useful to keep an eye out for what they obsess over, like the Duke Lacrosse thing, where they geniunely see this as proof that upper-class white males are persecuted by the media and the liberal indoctrinaire ivory tower universities. They seriously believe this.

Plus, the blogger and political cartoonist types converse in such a way that they dramatically tip their hand, moreso that any "serious" rightwing talking head has learned to hide.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:46 (eighteen years ago)

it is crazy to favor capital punishment for the unborn, however.

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:46 (eighteen years ago)

abortions for capital offenders, however, i have mixed feelings on

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:49 (eighteen years ago)

It is not crazy, however, to favor another Flood; this time, no Ark.

xp

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:49 (eighteen years ago)

What's Aztlan? All I can think of is Shadowrun. Also, I live under a rock.

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:53 (eighteen years ago)

Cho Seung-hui is believed to have been clinically depressed, and was on medication.

whenever this first happened i was reading some blog.. prob those daily kos comments i swear never to read and always read.. and one of the first ones was 'how long before they find out the shooter was taking antidepressants.' I thought, yeah right. and here we are.

― daria-g, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:56 (eighteen years ago)

http://mediamatters.org/items/200605250015

http://mediamatters.org/static/images/item/dobbs-20060523-ccc.jpg

This was on CNN last May, a graphic nicked from a white supremacist website.

Aztlan or "The Reconquista" whatever thing was this big deal almost a year ago, around the time some folks had demonstrations in every big american city in support of mexican immigrants. The latest version of The Evil Foreigner Coming to Sodomize Lady Liberty was some rightwingers freaking out about furiner brown people coming to take back the SW part of America. Malkin got a shitload of airtime & mileage out of this.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 17:59 (eighteen years ago)

yeah the funny and entertaining part I buy - it's the notion that one must keep up with the daily thought patterns of one's adversaries, that there's something noble or necessary in doing so, that strikes me as self-congratulatory horseshit

This is all I'll say on the matter (ethan and Edward quite OTM), but I ask: you avoid shit you don't agree with? How's that healthy?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:06 (eighteen years ago)

While you boys were debating, I was having a smoke with a fellow professor, a quite liberal woman in her fifties. We were, of course, discussing Virginia Tech. I quote her exactly: "What appalls me is that no one resisted. If it was my classrom, I'd have thrown a goddamn desk at'em."

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:07 (eighteen years ago)

Alfred, avoiding and not indulging are two different things - naturally it's common sense to understand both sides of an argument. That's not what I'm talking about. Do you make a point of relishing every possible moment you can with people whose positions you already know are bullshit? Will you ever get any minutes you spent reading Michelle Malkin back, and do you gain anything from those minutes besides "wow, she's crazy, I'm so glad I'm smarter"? And has "knowing the opposition" via these channels translated yet into anything beyond well-informed posters in comments threads?

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:13 (eighteen years ago)

That handcuffed guy appears to be a local reporter.

No - the student reporter took the picture. The handcuffed guy is still, as far as I'm aware, unidentified.

-- Nicholas Passant, Monday, April 16, 2007 11:03 PM (Yesterday)

So who was that handcuffed guy anyway - his photo has gone from flickr.

― Ned Trifle II, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:15 (eighteen years ago)

You don't understand, Hans: it's neither a polarity nor a hierarchy. I don't simper smugly when reading The Corner. I simply like reading other people's opinions. Like some people enjoy owning guns.

(which takes us back to the OTHER hot thread of the day...)

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:15 (eighteen years ago)

i dont think its really fair to argue that you're wasting time learning more about anything, when the alternative is not learning more about stuff

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:16 (eighteen years ago)

I guess another thing that irritates me, not necessarily about people reading the crazier of the right-wing blogs, but about the way those opinions get deployed on ILX is that they kill conversation, because everyone tends to feel the same way about them. this isn't always the case; I like when people try to analyze what underlies certain kinds of right-wing rhetoric but sometimes, when there isn't much there except resentment and nastiness, threads become a bunch of examples w/o interpretation.

this is all fairly off topic.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:16 (eighteen years ago)

well stuff like the right wing cartoonists thread is not only a lot of bitchy fun but also fairly insightful, exploring motives & so on - kingfish, for all the shit i give him, is one of the best ppl on ilx for this

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:18 (eighteen years ago)

This whole - if we'd had a gun we would have taken him down, or I would have thrown a desk at him, or whatever - isn't that just wishful thinking? Don't we all think we'd survive that plane crash / car wreck, talk our way out of that kidnapping, be the hero who shoots down that random lunatic with a gun?

― Ned Trifle II, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:20 (eighteen years ago)

but about the way those opinions get deployed on ILX is that they kill conversation, because everyone tends to feel the same way about them.

To be fair, I plead guilty to this charge sometimes; but there ARE a couple of posters on The Corner with whose opinions I sometimes sympathize or can understand their logic. I've posted those too. It does help that ILE has lots of smart-asses whose leftism isn't as adamantine as The Corner's rightism is.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:20 (eighteen years ago)

What's Aztlan? All I can think of is Shadowrun. Also, I live under a rock.

-- Will M., Tuesday, April 17, 2007 10:53 AM (22 minutes ago)

ha, the first thing i thought of was Shadowrun. Also: i have no idea what Lou Dobbs is talking about. Moreover, Aztlan would be sort of cool.

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:20 (eighteen years ago)

"What appalls me is that no one resisted. If it was my classrom, I'd have thrown a goddamn desk at'em."

seriously, how hard is it to overpower an english major?

(sorry, bad taste, but I'll do anything to get you people to stop saying righty or leftie on this thread)

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:20 (eighteen years ago)

yeah I read lots of other opinions that differ from my own A! if what you're taking from what I'm saying is "it's morbid to read the opinions of others," well, I guess I won't be able to dissuade you from that reading. It just seems to me that there's a real weird porny "look what they're sayin'! OMG, look what they're sayin' now!" aspect to tracking fringe opinions online - like actually knowing what the crazy guy on the corner is saying well enough to quote it

that the super-fringe guys are informing dialogue at mainstream levels is unfortunate, but I don't see how being ahead of the curve on that point really translates into any gain, save the enjoyment one if that's how you roll, which as I said to e - whatever floats yr boat right

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:21 (eighteen years ago)

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:22 (eighteen years ago)

which even translates to a larger international scale, the same bile reserved for the 15 british hostages is also directed at bush for not nuking iran

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:23 (eighteen years ago)

ethan otm all over the place here

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:23 (eighteen years ago)

but do we have to politicize every tragedy?

(especially one that's mostly a mental health issue)

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:24 (eighteen years ago)

xpost to Ethan, I don't include the right wing cartoonists thread in the conversation-killa category, in part because there's so much built-in scope for discussion wrt the images (that thread started by being about right-wing ventriloquism through racial minorities, right? I mean, that's fascinating.) whatever, I should just admit that I can't deal with the part of contemporary conservatism that strikes me as being essentially about a pose of manliness and completely empty of ideology and Derbyshire totally reeks of that to me. sorry to have flipped out.

so many xposts

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:24 (eighteen years ago)

(am i the only one that listens to late night christian radio for the sheer wtfability of it? srsly, the shit is unbelievable)

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:25 (eighteen years ago)

seriously, how hard is it to overpower an english major?

I exercised as an undergrad. I still do. I'LL KICK YOUR ASS.

I will concede that English majors are, with the exception of journalism faculty, the shittiest dressers on campus.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:25 (eighteen years ago)

and don't say the other guy started first, cuz when my kids do that I yell at both of 'em.

xpost to myself

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:25 (eighteen years ago)

you even got some of this at hurricane katrina, like 'wotta buncha pussies - i woulda built an ark out of mardi gras beads and sailed to freedom!'

xp yeah cartoonists/racial puppetry thread is my baby!

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:25 (eighteen years ago)

tied together with bootstraps

― deej, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:26 (eighteen years ago)

the ark, that is, not your baby

― deej, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:26 (eighteen years ago)

(in my experience, English grad students are excellent dressers. ahem.)

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:27 (eighteen years ago)

paying attention to demagogues is also good for learning when theyve backed down for liberal-baiting to just focus on their ratings & sex predators (o'reilly) or weight-gain milkshakes (700 club) - the liberals who are 'above' all this shit usually have really ignorant & outdated ideas of what the right cares or thinks about

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:27 (eighteen years ago)

you even got some of this at hurricane katrina, like 'wotta buncha pussies - i woulda built an ark out of mardi gras beads and sailed to freedom!

Congratulations -- water came out for nose for laughing.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:28 (eighteen years ago)

I exercised as an undergrad. I still do. I'LL KICK YOUR ASS.

look just 'cause you're well-toned doesn't make you a ninja

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:29 (eighteen years ago)

Then again, on some level, it's just hilarious to watch them thrash about, like blaming this mess on terrorists and/or liberals.

A lot of the time, I don't post the necessary "Jesus Christ, what the fuck is WRONG with these people?" 'cuz then i'd feel like the fictional Onion op-ed guy; using multiple labelling redundancies in a vain attempt to drive a point into yr skull.

Plus, you click thru enough of this stuff, and patterns emerge. As the long-disappeared Blount pointed out, these are some thin-skinned motherfuckers(i mean, focusing all yer hate on ROSIE ODONNELL?! LORD, spare us, sit the fuck down).

Truth be told, I tend to stay away from the blogs & sewers like LGF. Townhall stuff I notice b/c their headlines show up when I go hunting for crazy ass cartoons.

I find it really fascinating that even these chumps went from Dubya-as-hero to depictions of Dubya-as-chimpy as savage as anything you see on DU or something. Hell, Tom Tomorrow is one of the few guys left who does a not-overly-insulting portrait of the man. It was like the final threshhold had been breached, that even the illustrated water carriers and enablers have finally had enough.

(multiple xposts)

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:29 (eighteen years ago)

you're still mischaracterizing e - being "above it" is your term here for whatever reason - it's like, in health care you keep current with research and get in plenty of actual patient interaction but you don't stare at pictures of the same cancer day in & day out as though it were going to suddenly tell you something new

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:31 (eighteen years ago)

since no one else is saying it, hans otm

theres a huge difference between keeping an eye on & obsessing over

also the more optimistic alternative to learning about complete shit is learning about shit that isnt shit

― deeznuts, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:34 (eighteen years ago)

look just 'cause you're well-toned doesn't make you a ninja

It makes me a Jedi.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:34 (eighteen years ago)

theres a huge difference between keeping an eye on & obsessing over

I'm not sure you can accuse anyone here -- even Ned or me -- of "obsessing" over right-wing blather. If I read any political blather at all, it's theirs though -- I get enough left-wing blather from friends and faculty.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:35 (eighteen years ago)

my favorite comment was that if the wrongly accused dude with the blog full of guns had been in class that day he couldve saved all the students, i guess through some kinda john woo slow-mo stand-off

xp i think we can all agree that we are against the bad, obsessive kind of staying informed and in favor of the good, useful kind of staying informed, just that we draw the line in different places - just because you think its good enought to catch up once every two weeks instead of my once a week doesnt mean either of us are engaging in the bad kind so maybe you should let it the fuck go homie

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:36 (eighteen years ago)

yeah man it's like I said in the intial post that seemed to really rankle people:

obsessively farming the righty blogs to see what new outrageous thing they've said isn't "keeping informed" or "knowing the opposition," it's self-flagellating bizarre narcissism

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:40 (eighteen years ago)

ILE descends again into level 3 navelgazing

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:41 (eighteen years ago)

photo of shooter released

[img][Removed Illegal Link]

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:41 (eighteen years ago)

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/story.vt14.tues.ap.jpg

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:42 (eighteen years ago)

also the more optimistic alternative to learning about complete shit is learning about shit that isnt shit

8080

re: jon swift, how for real is this guy?

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:42 (eighteen years ago)

ironic that they're still going on and on about whether a "loner" "acted alone"

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:43 (eighteen years ago)

maybe if you read conservative blogs (or 18th c irish dudes) you would know its satire

hay guyz is this bonsai kitten site <<< 4 real???

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:44 (eighteen years ago)

ok, i read more of his blog, dumb question apparently

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:45 (eighteen years ago)

i know this is nothing new but post 9/11 especially i think right-wingers are just going to be frothing at the mouth nastier & nastier at every possible disaster or hostage situation or whatever for the next million years if it doesnt live up to their imaginary flight 93 dirty harry scenario

in a way I think this was already the direction American conservatism was headed in pre-9/11, though, after the fiscal conservatism started to drop out of it. it's so much about an aesthetic attachment to a lone man standing up against a fallen, evil world and I don't know what other cultural baggage.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:45 (eighteen years ago)

OHHH JON SWIFT HAHAHA fuck why didn't i get that?

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:45 (eighteen years ago)

Richard Hofstadter to thread.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:46 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

― Steve Shasta, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:46 (eighteen years ago)

Heroic acts bright spot amid campus tragedy
Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:55PM EDT

By Patricia Zengerle

BLACKSBURG, Virginia (Reuters) - Amid the horror at Virginia Tech were tales of heroism during the rampage, including an older professor -- himself a Holocaust survivor -- who gave his life to protect his students.

Romanian-born Liviu Librescu, an Israeli citizen, moved two decades ago to the United States where he taught in the Engineering Science and Mechanics Department at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University.

Although he was 76, long past the usual retirement age, he was still teaching at Virginia Tech on Monday when chaos erupted in Norris Hall, the campus building where a gunman identified as Cho Seung-Hui, 23, opened fire, killing 30 people before committing suicide.

Students described how Librescu barricaded the door against Cho so that they could escape by jumping out the classroom's second-floor window. Some broke legs in the fall, but they survived. Librescu was shot dead during the rampage.

An impromptu shrine to the dead professor was set up on the campus, with flowers and his picture.

"He was an exceptionally tolerant man who mentored scholars from all over our troubled world," Ishwar Puri, his department head, said in a written statement released to the media.

Students who survived the massacre at Norris Hall spoke of school janitors who, as Cho opened fire upstairs, ran to help others instead of saving themselves.

"The janitors came running through, and told everyone to get out," said Nick Vozza, 20, of Burke, Virginia, who was in the Norris Hall basement when Cho began his attack two floors above.

In a German class upstairs, a few students tried to barricade the door against the onslaught of bullets, and then tried to help their injured classmates while they waited for help, Trey Perkins, 20, told Fox News.

Of 15 students in his class, he said only about six came out alive.

Many students wore the school's colors of orange and maroon in a sign of solidarity on Tuesday. Many said they were shocked and exhausted, as the names of the victims began to trickle out, and they faced an onslaught of media and investigators.

But they said they were heartened by the stories of heroism.

"It's one of those things where every little thing you do can save somebody's life," Vozza said. "The only thing we can do to get through this thing is to be nice to each other."

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:47 (eighteen years ago)

that play is terrible

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:49 (eighteen years ago)

wow. shits making me actually tear up

total xp

― deeznuts, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:50 (eighteen years ago)

christ that play

― ghost rider, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:50 (eighteen years ago)

that play is terrible

everyone's a critic

― Hans Rott, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:51 (eighteen years ago)

still not as amazing as the homoerotic dylan klebold stuff in harpers

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:52 (eighteen years ago)

now hold on right there mister

― deeznuts, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:53 (eighteen years ago)

i guess dudes like this either grow up to kill thirty people or write the screenplay for 300

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:53 (eighteen years ago)

well how do we know there was no resistance? while i have yet to hear of a specific altercation aside the first man shot in the dorm, that doesn't mean it didn't occur.

in terms of this boring argument over reading "the other side," the problem with that kind of behavior is that i find it is generally used to play chicken with yr cohorts' beliefs. "guess what, i think david duke had some good things to say," etc. how much of the consuming results in ingesting, how much is shock value, how much is simply that you view opinions and links as some sort of life-affirming commodity (hello kingfish), and how much of it is actually informative in a substantial manner? it's so easy to lose yr own fucking beliefs when wading through this shit (shit meaning blogs/pundits of any stripe). i am a current events/politix junkie and always have been, but there's a point at which whatever information you gleam stops being useful and you turn into an insider nutter like gabb or daria or kf or mickey or whoever. now of course i can't judge too much because in the event of a crisis i come here for those "human" aggregators, but i would never want to pick up their click-n-hover habits.

― YGS, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:53 (eighteen years ago)

oh if only gabb & daria & kingfish & mickey brought as much to ile as "YGS"

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:55 (eighteen years ago)

um, daria is not a nutter.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:55 (eighteen years ago)

I chafe at the accusation that I am an insider.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:57 (eighteen years ago)

i think its conflating DLC moderate realists like gabb & daria with blogdorks like kingfish and then whatever the fuck mickey is trying to identify himself as instead of a warez-mule felon

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:58 (eighteen years ago)

an insider nutter? well this is certainly the first time i've been accused here of knowing too much

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:59 (eighteen years ago)

(i actually like some of the folks i called nutters btw)

― YGS, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:59 (eighteen years ago)

so I'm reading this play and I'm really feeling for richard here

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 18:59 (eighteen years ago)

I think the guy watched too many gregg araki movies

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:01 (eighteen years ago)

as with hans i think and what does not actually disagree with that which he is arguing against

― deeznuts, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:01 (eighteen years ago)

i guess dudes like this either grow up to kill thirty people or write the screenplay for 300

LOLZ omg ethan

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:02 (eighteen years ago)

(and ethan i've been on here longer than any of them but whatever. this is totally beside the point and i wish i had never engaged with that discussion. i just keep refreshing this thing hoping for more news.)

― YGS, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:02 (eighteen years ago)

ethan, btw, how's that dj drama theory going? still trying to figure out who snitched on him, stringer or avon

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:05 (eighteen years ago)

FFS people, lay off Mickey. A lot of you have a knee jerk reaction to disagree just cause he's MM. (Like many people <insert whatever ILXOR you please> will say OTM808080 or whatever term you guys invented.)

"What appalls me is that no one resisted. If it was my classrom, I'd have thrown a goddamn desk at'em."

Uh dude, have you observed group behavior? I assure you, your class would react the same way. It is very uncommon for someone to *get out* of the group and overpower the killer, let alone the entire group overpowering the guy.

― stevienixed, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:05 (eighteen years ago)

haha wait ethan, do you seriously not know who YGS is?

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:05 (eighteen years ago)

stevie he was quoting someone else

― deeznuts, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:07 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.acolumbinesite.com/dylan/writing/dkcw1.jpg

xp why the fuck would i know who YGS is

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:07 (eighteen years ago)

but Yancey, you've been here long enough to know how these big-ass news event threads work.

Something will be reported, concern will be posted, and only a few bits will trickle thru before the thread either becomes meta-discussion/accusations or completely spins out of control for a few hundred posts for a day or two while the actual journos do actual journo work. Posting volume dies down, then sparks up again a few days later. A pretty authoritative article covering the details will be in the NYT or WaPo tomorrow, an insightful bit of analysis in Salon or somewhere by friday, and so on.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:08 (eighteen years ago)

At 1:00 a.m., as the man dressed in black walked down the street, not a sound was to be heard, except the jingling of his belt chains striking his two guns in their holsters and his large bowie knife slung in anticipation of use. He looked ready for a small war with whoever came his way, fueled perhaps by what Christians would call evil. He smoked a thin cigar. Even though I was unable to see his expressions, I could feel his anger. He noticed my presence but paid no attention, and kept walking toward a popular bar, The Watering Hole. He stopped about thirty feet from the door and waited. For whom? I wondered. A group of preps walked out of the bar, mildly drunk. Seeing him, they stopped in their tracks, paralyzed with fear. “You still want a fight, huh?” said the largest. “Just a fistfight. C'mon, put the guns away. Fuckin' pussy!” His voice quavered as he spoke these words of attempted courage. The other preps were muttering:

“Nice trench coat, dude.”

“We were just messing around with you the other day. Chill out, man.”

“I didn't do anything. It was all them.”

“C'mon, man. You wouldn't shoot us in public.”

The smallest, obviously a cocky, power-hungry prick, said, “Shoot me! Go ahead, I want you to shoot me. Hah, you won't. Goddamn pussy!”

The man in black laughed. It would have made Satan cringe in Hell. Before I could see a reaction from the preps, the man had pulled out one of his pistols. Three shots were fired. Three shots hit the largest prep in the head. The streetlights caused a reflection off the droplets of blood as they flew away from his skull and showered his buddies. The next few were not executed so systematically, but with uncontrolled rage. He set down the guns and pulled out the knife. One of the two left, the smallest, had pissed his pants. The other one lunged at the man, hoping his football-tackling skills would save his life. The man sidestepped and made two slashes at the prep. A small trickle of blood cascaded onto the concrete. The last one, the smallest one, tried to run. The man quickly reloaded and shot him through the lower leg. He instantly fell and cried in pain.

The man pulled an electronic device from his bag. I saw him tweak the dials and press a button. I heard a faint yet powerful explosion—six miles away, I would guess. Then another. After recalling the night many times, I finally understood that these were diversions, to attract the cops.

The last prep, bawling, was attempting to crawl away. The man walked up behind him, and his left hand came down on the prep's head. The metal piece did its work. The town was still, except for the distant wail of police sirens. The man came my way again. He stopped and gave me a look I will never forget. If I could face the emotion of a god, it would look like the man. He smiled, and in that instant, through no endeavor of my own, I understood his actions.

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:09 (eighteen years ago)

oh ok YGS is yancey that doesnt change what i said at all

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:09 (eighteen years ago)

holy shit that play

― stet, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:10 (eighteen years ago)

ethan that's really creative but you know it's perp not prep right?

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:11 (eighteen years ago)

"If I could face the emotion of a god, it would look like the man."

― deeznuts, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:13 (eighteen years ago)

how many times are people going to say "just to reiterate, it is really shocking that this would happen in such a small, rural community..." uh, guys, crimes happen in those places ALL THE DAMN TIME

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:15 (eighteen years ago)

somebody change 'man in black' to bush and 'prep' to ahmadinejad and submit that to townhall

― and what, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:15 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.icanhascheezburger.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/durrr.jpg

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:17 (eighteen years ago)

crimes happen in those places ALL THE DAMN TIME

...not like this, but yeah, they do.

what the cat said

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:18 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.claudezervas.com/cz/images/slides-medium/bears.jpg

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:18 (eighteen years ago)

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:19 (eighteen years ago)

what STET said

― MRZBW, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:19 (eighteen years ago)

spooky bears OTM

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:19 (eighteen years ago)

i want one

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:20 (eighteen years ago)

a spooky bear, i mean

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:20 (eighteen years ago)

god, that play

"out of sheer desecrated hurt and anger" is one of the worst strings of words I've ever read

― bernard snowy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:24 (eighteen years ago)

I mean, I hope he wrote that as like a high school sophomore or something, because shit was terrible.

― bernard snowy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:26 (eighteen years ago)

you know what else was terrible?

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:26 (eighteen years ago)

(sorry)

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:26 (eighteen years ago)

It would have made Satan cringe in Hell.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 19:40 (eighteen years ago)

Play #2: http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

― Chris H., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:09 (eighteen years ago)

despite the broken english, that one's still a bit better

― bernard snowy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

lol that second play is so "grownups just don't understand!!"

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

"such a wicked old flapper"

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:17 (eighteen years ago)

"We would rather be addicted to the most powerful heroin than be fucked by this old muthafucker!"

― bernard snowy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:19 (eighteen years ago)

last line is the best. has a beckett feel to it. C+

― modestmickey, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:19 (eighteen years ago)

Meantime, I honestly hadn't realized Nikki Giovanni teaches there.

Karl Precoda teaches at VT too.

― Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:19 (eighteen years ago)

PS don't casinos have cameras basically everywhere? I find it difficult to suspend my disbelief here.

― bernard snowy, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:20 (eighteen years ago)

total sub-Beckett

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:20 (eighteen years ago)

Guns don't kill people, Axl Rose's lyrics kill people.

― Nicole, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:32 (eighteen years ago)

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=19406792

supposedly the myspace of the girl he was obsessed with

― deej, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:41 (eighteen years ago)

gone

― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:42 (eighteen years ago)

There is something interesting here about institutions, particularly college campuses, and security. Are expectations for college campus security higher than they would be in a workplace? Or an apartment complex? Is that part of what tuition buys, an added layer of protection?

― Mark Rich@rdson, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

Rhode Island student among those killed in Virginia Tech shooting
LINCOLN, R.I. (AP)

April 17, 2007 - 2:08PM
LINCOLN, R.I. (AP) - A graduate student in engineering from Rhode Island is among the people killed in yesterday's shooting at Virginia Tech.

Daniel O'Neil was killed -- according to a spokesman for Connecticut College, where O'Neil's father, Bill, is director of major gifts.

O'Neil graduated in 2002 from Lincoln High School and later graduated from Lafayette College in Easton, Pennsylvania, before heading to Virginia.

A high school friend, Steve Craveiro, says he heard the news at 4 a-m this morning.

He says O'Neil played guitar and wrote his own songs. Craveiro describes O'Neil as smart, responsible and a hard worker.

He says O'Neil was destined to be extremely successful -- and didn't deserve what happened.

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:55 (eighteen years ago)

wtf is up with this post-eating epidemic

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:55 (eighteen years ago)

Is that part of what tuition buys, an added layer of protection?

DRINKING

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 21:00 (eighteen years ago)

for a couple of minutes I thought shakey meant there was an epidemic striking those who have just eaten. then I realized it meant ILX EATER OF POSTS.

― Edward III, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 21:01 (eighteen years ago)

Richard McBeef: This is the sort of thing Todd Solondz must have been producing at age 23.

― fife, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 21:48 (eighteen years ago)

Because of this incident, they're showing Bowling For Columbine on Belgian TV this evening. Hmm.

― StanM, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:00 (eighteen years ago)

what the fuck, belgium?

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:25 (eighteen years ago)

Local LA radio is interviewing a public affairs spokesman for the Church Of Scientology who apparently have already mobilized Scientologists into the Blacksburg area.

― Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:40 (eighteen years ago)

trauma = fresh converts

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:42 (eighteen years ago)

oh god

― lfam, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:43 (eighteen years ago)

Bob Adams of the Church Of Scientology: "This is no different that what we did in the aftermath of Katrina, 9/11, and the tsunami."

Also... "There was a report that the gunman had taken anti-depressants in the past and it bears questioning as to just how much of a role they played in this tragic event"

― Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:44 (eighteen years ago)

The radio host is letting the Scientologist hang himself on this... It's being netcast at http://www.ktlk.com

― Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:45 (eighteen years ago)

Scientologist: "All of these recent shootings can be tied to the use of psycho-pharmaceuticals"

― Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:48 (eighteen years ago)

One glimmer of hope out of all this is that perhaps the Phelps gang will encounter the CoS in Blacksburg, and the vid of the interaction gets posted.

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:55 (eighteen years ago)

kingfish otm

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:56 (eighteen years ago)

worlds collide!

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:56 (eighteen years ago)

unless they form into a voltron ;_;

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:56 (eighteen years ago)

the big unanswered question: who let this guy into creative writing classes?

― akm, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:58 (eighteen years ago)

an extremely bad idea

― rps, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:59 (eighteen years ago)

Dean Bad Idea

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 22:59 (eighteen years ago)

mr. ian mcfarlane isn't a very good writer from his aol statement either.

― akm, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:00 (eighteen years ago)

an extremely bad idea

what, like getting the keymaster and gatekeeper together?

― kingfish, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:03 (eighteen years ago)

why couldn't he have just shot up a Scientology center instead

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:04 (eighteen years ago)

the big unanswered question: who let this guy into creative writing classes?

srsly. guns should be banned for creative writing students

― ken c, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:14 (eighteen years ago)

hey I am not an aggregator, I've barely posted at all lately!

that play! just think of it as filmed by john waters

You once worked for the government. As a janitor, at least. You hated the fact that my mom was with my dad. Go home to your mother! Doesn't she ever want you? Tell her this isn't some communist daycare center!

― daria-g, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:20 (eighteen years ago)

why couldn't he have just shot up a Scientology center instead

Not a chance. Scientologists understand how to deal with these kinds of people.

― fife, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:27 (eighteen years ago)

Karl Precoda teaches at VT too.

Now that's a freeform jam session I'd like to see/hear.

The snippets I have read so far from the gunman make London After Midnight lyrics seem like Yeats.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 00:49 (eighteen years ago)

One glimmer of hope out of all this is that perhaps the Phelps gang will encounter the CoS in Blacksburg, and the vid of the interaction gets posted.

-- kingfish, Tuesday, April 17, 2007 5:55 PM (2 hours ago)

otm

― latebloomer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 01:16 (eighteen years ago)

why couldn't he have just shot up a Scientology center instead

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 23:04 (Yesterday)

or wherever the hell ghost rider lives

― modestmickey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 01:48 (eighteen years ago)

oh mickey, you're so fine

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 01:51 (eighteen years ago)

why would someone want to shoot up The Raven?

― I DIED, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 01:56 (eighteen years ago)

que love u too girl keep it real

― modestmickey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 01:59 (eighteen years ago)

Man, why is everyone on CNN so happy this guy was:

-on anti-depressants
-a foreigner
-a loner
-troubled

?

Is it comforting to know that, phew, nobody has to adjust their world view?

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 05:58 (eighteen years ago)

Two of the guy's plays are online:

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:06 (eighteen years ago)

Also, please help me remember not to read those moronic Have Your Say things on BBC News anymore.

(every single non-American is talking about gun control, but - just like we saw on this thread - this will only go on until we foreigners accept we're always wrong and we have to shut up)

Added: Tuesday, 17 April, 2007, 15:39 GMT 16:39 UK

To my fellow Americans, this HYS forum and the rants directed at us proves that we live in world full of hate and animosity. Just read the non US posts here and you will see that our accusers are spewing vile hatred and show 0 % compassion for the victims and their families. Shall we expect a shout of joy coming from the UK & Europe when the next 9/11 happens in America -- my money is on YES.

Jim, NYC

Recommended by 78 people

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:33 (eighteen years ago)

(man, I suck at trolling/trying to start a useless discussion, don't I?) :-)

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:34 (eighteen years ago)

Meanwhile, more conjecture about that weird thing on his arm:

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2007/04/ismael-ax-cho-seung-huis-scrawl.html

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:37 (eighteen years ago)

You never get used to hearing about this type of senseless waste, but even as the White House was responding to the incident, after having described Mr. Bush's "Horror" at the situation, the spokesperson took a minute out to declare that the President still believes that there is a right for people to bear arms. As long as the United States continues to cling to their beloved 2nd amendment, this kind of thing will keep happening. That's probably not a very novel, or popular observation, but what it is going to take for people to begin to make the link?

― j-rock, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:39 (eighteen years ago)

You anti-american commie! Ban him!

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:43 (eighteen years ago)

how long until some yahoo videotapes his buddies acting out those scripts and posts it on youtube

― marmotwolof, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:44 (eighteen years ago)

"You anti-american commie! Ban him!"

Je m'excuse.

― j-rock, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:48 (eighteen years ago)

just kidding :-)

how long until some yahoo ~~videotapes his buddies acting~~ instructs his drama class students to act out those scripts ~~and posts it on youtube~~

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:51 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah I was already sort of wondering about how many years away it would be until a double feature is presented at a small "edgy" or "experimental" playhouse.

― Clay, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:54 (eighteen years ago)

ya rly

"Richard McBeef. What kind of name is that? What an asshole name. I don't like it. And look at his face. What an asshole face. I don't like his face at all."

― marmotwolof, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 06:56 (eighteen years ago)

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=19406792

supposedly the myspace of the girl he was obsessed with

-- deej, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 20:41 (Yesterday)
gone

No, it is still there.

― nathalie, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 07:01 (eighteen years ago)

re: those plays/'disturbing' writings:

Will every teenage Tarantino/Lynch/Waters/... wannabe be locked up from now on?

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 07:03 (eighteen years ago)

xpost to self That said: Last Login: 4/17/2007 ???

― nathalie, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 07:04 (eighteen years ago)

Mr. Brownstone >>>>> Richard McBeef

Will every teenage Tarantino/Lynch/Waters/... wannabe be locked up from now on?

Page 5 of Mr. B is total Waters.

― marmotwolof, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 07:13 (eighteen years ago)

It just gets more depressing in ways -- Jamie Bishop, the slain German instructor I referred to earlier, is none other than the son of writer Michael Bishop, who sf fans will know in particular. Clearly Jamie's love for the subject had roots at home.

I think one reason I will dwell on this whole nightmare a while is that when I was a grad student I had to deal with two separate incidents involving undergrad students who said troubling things to me or left me material that specifically discussed suicidal behavior. Neither case was as extensive as what's documented here, where in fact it was one of Giovanni's classes that things first started going openly awry. But the conclusion reached in that situation -- 'university officials were responsive and sympathetic to (another professor's) warnings but indicated that because Cho had made no direct threats, there was little they could do' -- reminds me of the generally hands-tied deal found in my cases.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 07:17 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, Ned, but so many (young) people run around with death and carnage in their heads. So few act it out. I think many (involved in this tragedy) have 20/20 hindsight, changing their memories to fit with what happened now. I do believe he had strange thoughts, but so many people do! I mean, shit, so many of us know people like this.

― nathalie, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 07:26 (eighteen years ago)

JANE: He ass-raped you. He's such a rapist.
JOE: He ass-raped probably half of the kids in the class.
JOHN: He ass-rapes us all. Isn't that what high school teachers do?
JOE: Such an old constipated wicked man.

also:

JANE: I wish that old fart would have a heart attack and drop dead like old people are supposed to.

Jane - Mink Stole
Joe - David Lochary
John - Danny Mills
Mr. Brownstone - Divine

― marmotwolof, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 07:41 (eighteen years ago)

from that article Ned linked to:

"Kids write about murder and suicide all the time. But there was something that made all of us pay attention closely. None of us were comfortable with that," she said.

Which is absolutely tragic and probably very painful for the people who suspected he was more troubled than the average adolescent, but then she says this:

"I do just want to say, though, it's such a shame if people don't listen very carefully and if the law constricts them so that they can't do what is best for the student."

Somehow, this mention of "the law" made me feel very uncomfortable.

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 07:55 (eighteen years ago)

Some disturbing stuff on the Guardian FP today. One guy describing him as "evil" - yeah, very helpful addition to the debate there, mister. Also, South Korean kids staying away from campus because they're afraid of repercussions.

― emil.y, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 10:46 (eighteen years ago)

this is off subject, but just curious: are there many (or really any) north korean immigrants? i've never met one. today there would obviously be tremendous hurdles for a NKer to move to the US, but I don't know enough history to know if there was a good time in recent history for an exodus

― modestmickey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 11:12 (eighteen years ago)

North Korea was a closed communist state right from its formation, so I don't think so, unless the immigrants were refugees of the Kim Il-Sung government.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 11:20 (eighteen years ago)

I often wonder what compels people to go on a rampage and then kill themselves.

― nathalie, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 11:22 (eighteen years ago)

they should ban writing plays

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 11:27 (eighteen years ago)

"As long as the United States continues to cling to their beloved 2nd amendment, this kind of thing will keep happening."

And as long as we cling to our OTHER beloved amendments, like the First, for instance, you're free to spew whatever dumbass bullshit you want. Understand, Trotsky?

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 11:45 (eighteen years ago)

Haha, "If you're against guns, you must be a communist".

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 11:46 (eighteen years ago)

you know these arms - the ones that its essential to have the right of the people to keep and bear - does that extend beyond cheap pistols. can you carry around bazookas and that. with the right license.

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 11:49 (eighteen years ago)

suitcase nukes?

― Alan, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 11:50 (eighteen years ago)

Norman Mailer, in a 2000 PBS interview:

The key thing about Oswald is his odd relation to America. He's a very special kind of American because Oswald was the consummate loner... He saw himself as a genius, as extraordinary, as incredible, and he knew better and he knew how to save the world if only people would listen to him. This was the sort of immense intensity in him. There are so many Americans who are like that -- they don't all commit assassinations, far from it, most of them just drink themselves to death or go slightly mad, or are known as eccentrics or what have you. But Oswald did typify this incredible magnification of the inner life of all those Americans who are loners. They live the most intense inner life and cannot believe they are trivial or insignificant in the scheme of things. That is anathema to them, that is obscene, and so they often go in for extraordinary ventures in order to prove to themselves that they are what they think they are, which is exceptional.

― fife, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:07 (eighteen years ago)

Haha, "If you're against guns, you must be a communist".

-- Tuomas, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:46 AM (20 minutes ago)

Nope. But if you're against me HAVING them, well then, yes, you are. Sorry.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:08 (eighteen years ago)

wait, I thought communists wanted redistribution of guns

― bernard snowy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 12:10 (eighteen years ago)

Remembering the victims:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9619385

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:08 (eighteen years ago)

WTF, bomb alert at Virginia Tech at the moment? Sick.

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:34 (eighteen years ago)

there were bomb scares on campuses all over the country yesterday. the world is full of sickos. Is VaTech even open today?

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:35 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, it was all over the place:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/18/AR2007041800508.html

VT is open all week, but no classes.

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 13:37 (eighteen years ago)

i'm reading mailer's oswald book right now, and there are quite a few passages that are relevant, these last two sentences fife posted capture that spirit well:

"They live the most intense inner life and cannot believe they are trivial or insignificant in the scheme of things. That is anathema to them, that is obscene, and so they often go in for extraordinary ventures in order to prove to themselves that they are what they think they are, which is exceptional."

also, i really, really doubt there would be any attacks on south koreans in blacksburg. despite being in the appalachians, it's a fairly cosmopolitan place, and there is a quite sizable asian population. in some of the outlying counties, sure, but just because it's the south doesn't mean people are itchin' for a lynchin'.

talked to my mom again last night (despite being a major repub, she was annoyed that bush was there, which i found odd) who mentioned that back when she worked in the president's office, it was well known that steger had a really hard time making decisions, and was often paralyzed by important calls. this seems particularly relevant in the case of that two-hour gap.

― YGS, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:14 (eighteen years ago)

The threat at VT this morning was of a 'suspicious person,' and was unfounded when investigated. You can't really fault people for being a litle jumpy right now.

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:18 (eighteen years ago)

From the roanoke.com feed:

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum, at a 10:15 news conference, said that Cho Seung-Hui, the 23-year-old Tech student who killed 32 people Monday in the worst mass shooting in U.S. history, stalking two female students and had been taken to a mental health facility in 2005, but no charges were filed.

Cho worried one woman enough with his calls and e-mail in 2005 that police were called in, said Flinchum said.

He said the woman declined to press charges and Cho was referred to the univeristy disciplinary system. The case was then outside the scope of the police department, he said.

In one incident, the department rececived a call from Cho's parents who were concerned that he might be suicidal and he was taken to mental health facility, Flinchum said.

Neither woman was a victim in Monday's shootings.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:42 (eighteen years ago)

Terrific.

How exactly did this borderline mongoloid (judging from his, err, 'work') make it all the way to college anyway?

― Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:45 (eighteen years ago)

Given that this dude had more warning signs than like anyone ever, and that proper authorities were repeatedly notified, is there any way that tragedies like this can actually be prevented by finding likely perpetrators in advance? It's not like the warnings were ignored, it just seems like there's a logical and legal limit to the actions anyone (school, police, medical) can take.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:48 (eighteen years ago)

How exactly did this borderline mongoloid (judging from his, err, 'work') make it all the way to college anyway?

okay seriously what the fuck is wrong with you

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:49 (eighteen years ago)

tragedies like this can actually be prevented by finding likely perpetrators in advance

ask the 9/11 commission and the fbi if there's any budget money in tracking "loonies"

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

Tombot pardon my political retardation but I don't get it.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:51 (eighteen years ago)

I mean why bother having a watchlist of people who may or may not pose a threat to themselves and others based on MENTAL HEALTH HISTORY when you can just have a bunch of names of people who might be muslims like "cat stevens" so you can give them a bunch of extra trouble at airports

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:51 (eighteen years ago)

oh wait that's right you can't prosecute people until they've actually committed a crime. unless their name is Jose Padilla. See?

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:53 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think that's really the point, but nice job adding generic Bush administration bitching to the discussion. In this dude's case, his parents, teachers, etc. knew he had some problems. They didn't ignore classic "warning signs," they escalated to higher authorities. Hell, he got himself thrown out of a poetry class. Is this a case of doing close to everything right and it not making a difference.

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

I don't want to parse NPR's "Friends say he was an angry loner"

― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

police are unsure if the loner acted alone

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

anybody saying dudes plays remind them of john waters needs to step the fuck off cuz john waters is like the most mellow bro ever & this guy is a fucked up kenan hebert dude

― and what, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:14 (eighteen years ago)

it's not generic bush admin bitching, it's generic risk profiling and gap analysis in the way we apply our intelligence and law enforcement resources. we have a bunch of bullshit guidelines to identify terrorists in our midst before they blow up a soccer stadium or some such shit but after decades of crazy loners with diagnosable problems blowing up federal buildings and shooting their classmates we can't be bothered to pay a fucking whit of attention to mental patients until after the fact

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

hey guys should we install $350M worth of CCTV gear in the NYC subway or maybe crack down on drunk fucking driving and hire some more cops at better salaries? ha ha trick question

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:31 (eighteen years ago)

Terrific.

How exactly did this borderline mongoloid (judging from his, err, 'work') make it all the way to college anyway?

-- Manalishi, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 7:45 AM (48 minutes ago)

ok wtf

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:34 (eighteen years ago)

saying the guy's plays can be read as Waters-level camp (I still can't stop laughing inappropriately at just the title of "Richard McBeef" a day later) isn't exactly the same thing as calling Waters a mass-murderer, dude.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)

it's the same kind of thinking that prompts the US, UK and UN to try to solve darfur by sending in troops and creating a sanctions regime - this is a contender for poorest place in the entire world, hundreds of thousands don't even have access to clean water, but yeah, troops ought to sort that place out

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)

Is this a case of doing close to everything right and it not making a difference.

the answer to your question is yes, i mean people around him certainly made enough noise that the person had problems but there isn't much anyone can do about that in a legal framework until the guy actually does something, technically. harassing a girl and then STOPPING (admittedly, when the police get involved) isn't illegal and neither is disrupting a class or two. it seems his parents were trying to get him therapy but beyond that there isn't much you can do, unless you want to make stalking laws etc a lot more stringent (which is quite possibly another debate entirely).

i mean i totally agree with what both tom and tracer hand just said, but what can you do about it?

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:40 (eighteen years ago)

Is this a case of doing close to everything right and it not making a difference.

this does boil down to "you can't arrest someone on suspicion of future acts." acting weird is not a crime, nor should it be. so far it sounds like everyone involved was aware of this guy's issues and did everything they could to help him / stop him, but he never did anything crazy enough to warrant incarceration. what if he was thrown off campus? would that change things or delay the inevitable?

perhaps more could've been done to keep weapons out of his hands, but there's a reason I prattled on about mental health above, and why I view the gun control debate at best as secondary or at worst as just another excuse for people to haul out their preassembled soapboxes. cho's actions exist on a continuum of disturbed violent behavior that in his case manifested themselves in a shooting spree - he could've just as easily poisoned half the school or blown it up.

we all know this guy; oswald, hinckley, travis bickle, even dwight schrute is a variation on the loner-psycho stereotype. the problem is that the shortest chapter in any book on psychopathy is *always* the one on treatment.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:46 (eighteen years ago)

I also don't see how gun control could have stopped this, unfortunately, unless you want to outlaw handguns altogether (I'm not 100% opposed to the idea, but we have that pesky 2nd amendment). Requiring some kind of super-intrusive mental health check on a purchaser with no criminal record seems out of the question.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:47 (eighteen years ago)

Days later, seven of Giovanni's 70 or so students showed up for a class. She asked them why the others didn't show up and was told that they were afraid of Cho.

"Once I realized my class was scared, I knew I had to do something," she said.

She approached Cho and told him that he needed to change the type of poems he was writing or drop her class. Giovanni said Cho declined to leave and said, "You can't make me."

Without knowing any more about the situation, that highlighted bit strikes me as, ummm, maybe not the best approach to take.

― ctrl-s, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:48 (eighteen years ago)

Although I disagree with the "bent on killing no matter what" theory. It's much harder to poison or plant explosives than it is to simply go on a rampage with legal handguns.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

personality test screening for gun buyers? doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:50 (eighteen years ago)

watching that cnn interview with his two roommates was telling, because the cnn dude was all like "dude didn't talk and was weird wtf?" and the two roommates -- who seemed like nice dudes truly -- just kinda shrugged their shoulders cuz, hello, this is what having a college roommate is like!

― YGS, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:50 (eighteen years ago)

E3 otm, but Hurting, too: guns made it much much easier for this guy to pull it off. a bombing or poisoning seems much much less likely, if only because of logistics

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:51 (eighteen years ago)

Although I disagree with the "bent on killing no matter what" theory. It's much harder to poison or plant explosives than it is to simply go on a rampage with legal handguns.

he didn't simply go on a rampage. he'd probably been planning and fantisizing about that day for months.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

yesssss, but still: guns are convenient. most other, uh, "methods" really aren't.

but i still think you're right about gun control distracting from the issue, here.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:54 (eighteen years ago)

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)

As a side note, the press coverage is reminding me how annoying the "information dump" style of news coverage is.

"Cho's parents emigrated from South Korea after suffering financial difficulties.

South Korea, also known as the Peoples Republic of Korea, is an East Asian country on the southern half of the Korean Peninsula. To the north, it is bordered by North Korea (Democratic People's Republic of Korea), with which it was united until 1945.

Police say Cho missed his second period Renaissance Literature class to prepare for the shooting.

The Glock company was founded in 1963 near Vienna, Austria."

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)

Can you click on Renaissance? Interesting!

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 15:58 (eighteen years ago)

sociopaths aren't born bad; they're made that way

unlikely this will be explored

― i, grey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:02 (eighteen years ago)

what I'm saying is that making it difficult to obtain weapons doesn't necessarily minimize the danger that mass murderers pose. ts: cho vs. mcveigh. shooting sprees are horrific and we have a gut repsonse to them, but they're an expression of a tendency. limiting the expression without addressing the tendency is another illusion of "doing something about the problem."

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:09 (eighteen years ago)

The problem is, it happens a lot more in the US than anywhere else and since it clearly can't be caused by every single American being a retard (you're all here and you all rule, generally), it HAS to be something else, and the most obvious thing is them guns.

-- StanM, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:56 AM (13 minutes ago)

I guess maybe my research on this stuff has affected how I view things, but look at the statistical distribution of serial killers in the world. guns may not be the problem.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

― will, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:43 (eighteen years ago)

StanM is right re: serial killers. Have law agencies and they psychiatric profession perhaps spent a disappropriate amount of time profiling and studying serial killers as opposed to spree killers? (disappropriate in terms of relative death tolls.)

― Ms Misery, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

From an article on "Ismail Ax" theories:

Also, the narrator from Moby Dick, Ishmael, is considered an enigma who is well educated yet considers his time on a whaling ship worthy of time at Yale or Harvard, according to education site Sparknotes.com.

― Eazy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:48 (eighteen years ago)

i'm sorry, i shouldn't crack some lame joke, i just think that's a completely useless argument

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

no Bud Light

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

wait Michael Moore

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

hang on perhaps the answer is football

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

carlos mencia DOES make me want to kill people, now that you mention it.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

apple pie
mom

― horseshoe, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

The problem is, it happens a lot more in the US than anywhere else and since it clearly can't be caused by every single American being a retard (you're all here and you all rule, generally), it HAS to be something else

like, maybe there being a lot more Americans than citizens of a lot of other countries you tend to read about in western media, and America being more diverse and rootless than just about any other country

― gabbneb, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:54 (eighteen years ago)

freedom

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:54 (eighteen years ago)

(spoiler alert)

Ishmael is the only person that survives the horror that is Moby Dick

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:54 (eighteen years ago)

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/09/29/1128000003_5669.jpg

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:54 (eighteen years ago)

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060411/060411_cheneypitch_vmed_11a.widec.jpg

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

you guys are so existential.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.baltimoresun.com/media/photo/2006-04/22959238.jpg

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

wait those pictures are like "whoa no one should kill anyone ever wtf holy christ omg!" then "oh god i want to kill everyone in washington dc" don't do that to me, mw. uh beartraps ;_;

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

wait, who is in that last picture?

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

it kind of looks like lee lee sobiesky

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

World figure skating champion Kimmie Meissner of Bel Air throws out the first pitch before last night's game.

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:59 (eighteen years ago)

oh. well that is disappointing.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 16:59 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper410/stills/t30295sc.jpg

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:01 (eighteen years ago)

^^^ won't someone save grandma and get her away from that asshole? it seems cruel

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:03 (eighteen years ago)

that's his Mommy

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:04 (eighteen years ago)

just wait til Hinckley throws out the first ball

― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.wired.com/politics/onlinerights/news/2007/04/watchlist3

we have all of this (plus the sex offender registry) but nothing to even pop on a guy who's been forcibly committed for mental illness in the past 36 months and has just purchased a gun and 50 rounds of ammunition. Because that would be useless information and an invasion of our bullshit illusion of privacy, not to mention hard to do.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:28 (eighteen years ago)

The problem is, it happens a lot more in the US than anywhere else and since it clearly can't be caused by every single American being a retard (you're all here and you all rule, generally), it HAS to be something else, and the most obvious thing is them guns.

Guns? Dude, it's not the objects which makes them killers, but the "mind" which is obviously affected by social environment. So I would say that it is something in American culture, but definitely not guns.Also, killers don't always use guns.

― stevienixed, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 17:31 (eighteen years ago)

Ok, it may be purely a matter of perception then, but a lot of people seem to think that this type of going postal/spree/massacre thing is happening a lot more in the US.

"Serial killer" = something else, generally. (someone who kills lots of people for years and years, not all at the same time)

-- StanM, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:16 AM (1 hour ago)

I do know the difference between a serial killer and a spree killer. they both fall under the general umbrella of aberrant violence committed by psychopaths. maybe I'm a VICTIM OF SYSTEMS THINKING but I see some relationship between these types of aberrant violence. during the 20th century the US held 6% of the world's population and 75% of the serial killers (Europe comes in second with 16%). some part of that number has to do with the level of research done in the US, but the percentage is so disproportionate as to indicate other factors at play.

StanM is right re: serial killers. Have law agencies and they psychiatric profession perhaps spent a disappropriate amount of time profiling and studying serial killers as opposed to spree killers? (disappropriate in terms of relative death tolls.)

-- Ms Misery, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:47 AM (35 minutes ago)

there's been a lot of work done in profiling mass murderers. unfortunately most of the research can't be used to prevent a spree from occurring, or from catching a perpetrator (they're usually dead by their own hand at the end). one of the earliest mass murderers is still alive, though: howard unruh.

there are female mass murderers, but they tend to kill family members and employ womb-like means to dispatch their victims (e.g. drowning, suffocation, etc) rather than guns.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:33 (eighteen years ago)

"womb-like," yeeks.

(...is that really the common sociological/psychological thinking? i'm curious!)

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:35 (eighteen years ago)

I'm not sure how common it is (there's not a whole lot of academic study about this), but the observation has been made.

most of the work in this area is done by law enforcement agencies, and while they've done a lot of great research, it's not focused on causes or prevention, but on detection and apprehension.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:42 (eighteen years ago)

Guns? Dude, it's not the objects which makes them killers, but the "mind" which is obviously affected by social environment. So I would say that it is something in American culture, but definitely not guns.Also, killers don't always use guns.

I think his point was, as has been often pointed out, that when someone flips in his head, guns make it a lot more easy for him kill several random people. There are cases like this in the Finnish news, but in almost all of them the killer has managed to kill only one or two people (for example with an axe). There is only one case like the Virginia tech in recent Finnish history, and that involved a homemade bomb. I think Edward's point about the killer using bombs or poison indstead simply isn't true: building bomb capable of killing as many people or doing it with poison simply isn't that easy. If there are any worldwide statistics of mass killings, I'm pretty sure guns are the weapon of choice in majority of them.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:43 (eighteen years ago)

"are cases" = "have been cases"

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:43 (eighteen years ago)

there are female mass murderers, but they tend to kill family members and employ womb-like means to dispatch their victims (e.g. drowning, suffocation, etc) rather than guns.

-- Edward III, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:33 PM (13 minutes ago)

hahahaha hi dere 19th century psychoanalysis

― and what, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:47 (eighteen years ago)

ETHAN TELL ME ABOUT YOUR FATHER

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:49 (eighteen years ago)

seriously the frequency of occurence per capita of similar violent incidents - serial killers and spree killers - is a social epidemic in this country. that's where Bowling For Columbine fails, miserably, because it's not addressed that this kind of thing has been glamorized, for lack of any better word, by our own media since - hey - torso, black dahlia, unruh, goetz and so on. It's a huge, huge part of American culture at this point. Suicide rates and "vehicular suicide" all pop up after somebody famous does themself in and it's in the paper; why do people never figure this shit out? Oh right, gotta sell that ad time, and you sure as hell can't do it with international stories.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:49 (eighteen years ago)

"33 people? well I guess we need to devote THREE WHOLE WEEKS to this one, otherwise the next guy might not beat the new record, and what kind of story is that"

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:51 (eighteen years ago)

Interesting points, Tom. I wonder if, even assuming psychotic breaks are an endemic part of human life, our culture provides serial killing sprees and shooting rampages as readily accessible, almost culturally pre-packaged ways of acting out on them

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 18:54 (eighteen years ago)

I hope there isn't a backlash against college students who have sought/should seek mental health assistance. I read an article a while back about a student basically being forced out of school because they voluntarily entered a psych ward...

― jessie monster, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:01 (eighteen years ago)

There are cases like this in the Finnish news, but in almost all of them the killer has managed to kill only one or two people (for example with an axe).

ah, well that's okay then.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:13 (eighteen years ago)

http://zip.4chan.org/co/src/1176923541668.jpg

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:15 (eighteen years ago)

damn

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:15 (eighteen years ago)

our culture provides serial killing sprees and shooting rampages as readily accessible, almost culturally pre-packaged ways of acting out on them

absolutely positively, cf. other completely fucked up social epidemics like this one I love to keep bringing up, the micronesian adolescent boy suicide-by-hanging epidemic

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:15 (eighteen years ago)

zip.4chan.org/co/src/1176923541668.jpg

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:15 (eighteen years ago)

haha i was going to post (for example with an axe) like a million times but i thought that would be childish and unproductive

also: Hurting, that's an interesting thought, though it swerves into Natural Born Killers territory

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:16 (eighteen years ago)

more social epidemics, plz (or maybe new thread?)

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:16 (eighteen years ago)

Virgin Mary sightings to thread

― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:18 (eighteen years ago)

NRO blames victims for being pussies:

"Spirit of Self-Defense [John Derbyshire]

As NRO's designated chickenhawk, let me be the one to ask: Where was the spirit of self-defense here? Setting aside the ludicrous campus ban on licensed conceals, why didn't anyone rush the guy? It's not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons. He had two handguns for goodness' sake—one of them reportedly a .22.

At the very least, count the shots and jump him reloading or changing hands. Better yet, just jump him. Handguns aren't very accurate, even at close range. I shoot mine all the time at the range, and I still can't hit squat. I doubt this guy was any better than I am. And even if hit, a .22 needs to find something important to do real damage—your chances aren't bad.

Yes, yes, I know it's easy to say these things: but didn't the heroes of Flight 93 teach us anything? As the cliche goes—and like most cliches. It's true—none of us knows what he'd do in a dire situation like that. I hope, however, that if I thought I was going to die anyway, I'd at least take a run at the guy."

― i, grey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:20 (eighteen years ago)

There are cases like this in the Finnish news, but in almost all of them the killer has managed to kill only one or two people (for example with an axe).

ah, well that's okay then.

I know it's morbid mathematics, but wouldn't you prefer 2 dead people to 33 dead people?

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:23 (eighteen years ago)

would I have to live in Finland?

― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:24 (eighteen years ago)

Finland — Population: 5,231,372 (July 2006 est.)

5 231 372 / 2 = 2 615 686

United States — Population: 298,444,215 (July 2006 est.)
298 444 215 / 3 = 99 481 405

So statistically, you're more likely to die in finland, you smug choad

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:27 (eighteen years ago)

Er, what?

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:28 (eighteen years ago)

Do you have math in your schools or did they drop that in favor of feminism classes? Do you pee sitting down?

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:28 (eighteen years ago)

If a student goes nuts in the forest and there's nobody around to kill, does anybody die?

― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:29 (eighteen years ago)

sexyDancer i'm pretty sure that's how black metal gets made

― modestmickey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:30 (eighteen years ago)

I do pee sitting down, but I can't see what your math is referring to.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:31 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.icanhascheezburger.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/pew-pew-pew.jpg

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:31 (eighteen years ago)

If Finland is so great and has socialized health care, how come they have approximately they same life expectancy as the USA?

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:31 (eighteen years ago)

ok that black metal joke was funny

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:31 (eighteen years ago)

PROBABILITY OF BEING A VICTIM OF A PSYCHO KILLING MORON

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:32 (eighteen years ago)

Where do the numbers 2 and 3 come from then?

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:32 (eighteen years ago)

I know it's morbid mathematics, but wouldn't you prefer 2 dead people to 33 dead people?

-- Tuomas, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:23 PM (10 minutes ago)

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:34 (eighteen years ago)

dude jon that is seriously the dumbest thing you've ever posted. did they ever tell you to "check your work" at rochester? I know NYU doesn't give a fuck but still.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:34 (eighteen years ago)

like seriously 3 and 33 are very different numbers, not interchangeable

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

oh shit :(

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

i was gonna say

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

298 444 215 / 33 = 9 043 764.09

^ USA STILL SAFER

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

lollercoaster alert

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

Tom, I don't do math

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

Also I had to take diff eq "more than once"

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

not significantly different

― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:37 (eighteen years ago)

next we can has britishes/NYC gun death mathematics please
I think it was 43 to 560

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:37 (eighteen years ago)

wait I still don't understand what that division proves.

― jessie monster, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:37 (eighteen years ago)

well it did end up proving that yes, tuomas pees sitting down

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:39 (eighteen years ago)

QED

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:40 (eighteen years ago)

we're mocking Finland for its unmanly population

― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:40 (eighteen years ago)

wait I still don't understand what that division proves.

-- jessie monster, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:37 PM (1 minute ago)

total population / average number of people killed in a killing spree = number of psychopaths on killing sprees that would be required to completely wipe out population

― bernard snowy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:41 (eighteen years ago)

COWELL ROLLS EYES AFTER 'IDOL' CONTESTANT SENDS CONDOLENCES
Wed Apr 18 2007 08:30:40 ET

Fans were enraged and FOX affiliates were fielding complaints late Tuesday after AMERICA IDOL judge Simon Cowell was caught on camera rolling his eyes after comments made by contestant Chris Richardson -- comments about the tragic VIRGINIA TECH shootings!

"My heart and prayers go out to Virginia Tech. I have a lot of friends over there. Be strong," Richardson, a Chesapeake, Virginia native, told the audience of the nation's top-rated TV show.

A quick camera shot showed Cowell rolling his eyes and impatiently tapping his hand on the table.

Backstage, contestant Chris Richardson was left stunned, calling Simon's reaction "sad and hurtful," a top production source told the DRUDGE REPORT.

[VIDEO]

Cowell's flippant reaction came after he critiqued Richardson for a "nasally" performance of the Rascal Flatts song "Mayburry."

But Nigel Lythgoe, Executive Producer of 'IDOL', says Simon was not reacting to Chris.

In a statement given exclusively to the DRUDGE REPORT, Lythgoe explains:

"This is a sad time for everyone, so it is especially disheartening that a quick camera cutaway could have been misinterpreted. We're sorry for any grief caused by this misunderstanding, but Simon was not reacting to Chris at that point. He had turned to speak to Paula and didn't actually hear Chris' final comments."

Lythgoe continues: "Everyone at 'AMERICAN IDOL' feels compassion for those affected by this tragedy. We opened the show with those thoughts and Simon later expressed sincere condolences on behalf of the judges, recognizing the challenges we all face in dealing with this horrible event."

Earlier, a FOX executive said: "Look, in his defense, Simon felt Chris was cynically deflecting his criticism...It was unfortunate... he clearly was unaware the camera was on him when he rolled his eyes."

A backstage source defends Richardson: "Chris decided earlier in the day that he was going to give a shoutout to his friends.. he is hurting."

Developing...

― and what, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:41 (eighteen years ago)

but 33 isn't the average number, it's THE RECORD.

― jessie monster, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:42 (eighteen years ago)

but 33 isn't the average number, it's THE RECORD.

-- jessie monster, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 3:42 PM (1 minute ago)

BOUNDED: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:45 (eighteen years ago)

Plus finland's population is on the decline so like it'll take fewer psychos to kill them all.

Also, easy to kill you if you are sitting on the toilet

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)

hahaha

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)

a buddy of mine once walked next to me, having a conversation, for at least 15 seconds before i realized i was peeing the whole time

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)

DUTCH SCHULTZ TO THREAD

― ghost rider, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)

wait, he was peeing

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)

shit

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)

but 33 isn't the average number, it's THE RECORD.

-- jessie monster, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:42 PM (5 minutes ago)

well we can assume that future psychos will aim to break the record, so it's actually a fairly conservative estimate

― bernard snowy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:49 (eighteen years ago)

river wolf wtf are you talking about!

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:51 (eighteen years ago)

life in the shallow end of a public pool

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:54 (eighteen years ago)

dude totally wanted to get in for columbine coverage

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:54 (eighteen years ago)

just pointing out how easy it is to walk along and pee at the same time, in case finnish black metal axe murderers go nuts and chase you while you're doing a business

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:55 (eighteen years ago)

cf sitting down like a lady

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:56 (eighteen years ago)

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 19:56 (eighteen years ago)

or why not all psychotic people kill for that matter.

― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:01 (eighteen years ago)

Re: Cowell

Developing...

I don't think it's possible he can.

― StanM, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:03 (eighteen years ago)

I'm excluding psychotic people in Finland. let 'em chop each other to pieces!

xpost

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:04 (eighteen years ago)

I know it's morbid mathematics, but wouldn't you prefer 2 dead people to 33 dead people?

-- Tuomas, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:23 PM (21 minutes ago)

I'd prefer to understand why psychotic people kill than debate gun control policy in the US. but that's just me.

Er, I think you can both try to understand why they kill and also try to reduce the number of people they kill. These aren't mutually exclusive options.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:05 (eighteen years ago)

no, they aren't, but the debate that erupts after an event like this is almost entirely driven toward the latter.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:07 (eighteen years ago)

The sad bit, though, is that even if you could isolate the reasons things like this happen, or why they seem like a particular problem in the US, the kinds of societal changes that would be necessary to "fix" them would likely be even deeper and more unrealistic to impose than a magically gun-free nation -- i.e., there's no great thing to be "done" either way, I don't think. But at least the cultural reasons-why end is about stuff we can all be aware of and do tiny things about ourselves, in that slow multi-generational culture-shift kind of way.

The problem Tom raises up there is definitely true: even if it's not quite as far as media glamorizing these sorts of things, it provides a narrative for "what people do when they go crazy" that (sadly enough) kind of becomes normalized. It's hard to imagine what to do about that. It's interesting, though, how mainstream media don't cover "issue" or "protest" suicides -- based on principles about not trading attention for death -- but if you kill enough people beforehand, then you've made yourself newsworthy.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:12 (eighteen years ago)

― Mark Rich@rdson, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:29 (eighteen years ago)

The CNN video interview with the roommates is something else.

Anchor: "So did he... play a lot of music?"

Roommate: "Um, yeah... lots of Led Zeppelin. Nirvana. Oh, and "Shine Down" by Collective Soul."

Anchor: "He played that one a lot?"

Roommate: "Over and over again. He wrote the lyrics in pencil and pen on the wall."

Anchor: "Did he listen to this song... on an iPod?"

― Ben Boyerrr, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:32 (eighteen years ago)

Wait, is that for real?

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:33 (eighteen years ago)

The sad bit, though, is that even if you could isolate the reasons things like this happen, or why they seem like a particular problem in the US, the kinds of societal changes that would be necessary to "fix" them would likely be even deeper and more unrealistic to impose than a magically gun-free nation -- i.e., there's no great thing to be "done" either way, I don't think.

that's a defeatist attitude, no? there's actually been some interesting work done in this area in the past decade, research that identifies the nature and nuture components of producing violently aggressive adults. but the research is in small pockets. unlike depression, ocd, or a host of other psychological problems, there are zero treatment options for people hard-wired for violence. it would nice if that could change.

if you kill enough people beforehand, then you've made yourself newsworthy.

media is always attracted to the horror stories.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)

how many people do you have to kill for it to be called a "rampage"? Cuz there have been waaaaaaaay more school/workplace shootings than Columbine and Whitman over the years - just not with body counts as high (101 California "massacre" in SF springs to mind).

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)

I'd be curious to see a stats breakdown of just how common "shooting rampages" (or whatever the term is for this) are. A common perception seems to be that it is an "epidemic" but the two events most often compared to this situation to happened eight (Columbine) and over 40 (Whitman) years ago. Maybe there is a spike in these sort of things, I dunno, and I don't follow news enough to know about all the school and workplace shootings going on. But it would be nice to see a sober assessment of the data.

I don't recall finding anything when I went looking a couple of years ago. IIRC, part of the problem is how crimes are coded by local police. somebody fitting the psychological profile of a rampage killer might walk into a bar and kill 2 people and a drug dealer might walk into a bar and shoot 2 people and they'll look like identical events.

shakey, I think it's the killer's profile that determines a rampage, not the body count. when you start looking at these things they follow eerily similar patterns.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:44 (eighteen years ago)

in that case its my impression that these sorts of "rampages" happen in America several times a year, at the very least.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:45 (eighteen years ago)

I mean just a little while ago there was that dude who bound and shot those little Amish girls.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)

what's interesting how the cho case violates some of the usuals.

multiple persons killed (check)
within a short period of time (check)
in a limited area or specific location (check)

killer usually:
is white (no)
is a male loner (check)
is psychologically motivated by anger and frustration (check)
keeps a list of potential victims and grievances (sounds like it)
plans a “campaign of terror” (check)
has a military background (no)
ends in suicide (check)

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:49 (eighteen years ago)

wait, by "some" you mean "two"

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:49 (eighteen years ago)

on second thought, maybe it's not that interesting.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:50 (eighteen years ago)

(though I was bracing to hear that the shooter did time in iraq. now that would've been a shitstorm.)

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:52 (eighteen years ago)

well be patient I'm sure that'll happen eventually, given the amount of shell-shocked, unemployed, wounded vets that are gonna flood the country.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:54 (eighteen years ago)

another common factor is an unemotional demeanor, coldness (in general life, not just during the rampage). which it sounds like cho had in spades.

unfortunately you're right, shakey. no one counts the mental health costs of the war but we'll sure be paying it for years to come.

― Edward III, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 20:58 (eighteen years ago)

everybody remember John Malvo/the DC sniper? That was a pretty high body count. good times.

I hate America

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 21:15 (eighteen years ago)

this was near a river, er, riverwolf, amirite?

― gabbneb, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 21:17 (eighteen years ago)

this is off subject, but just curious: are there many (or really any) north korean immigrants? i've never met one. today there would obviously be tremendous hurdles for a NKer to move to the US, but I don't know enough history to know if there was a good time in recent history for an exodus

-- modestmickey, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 4:12 AM

http://www.atimes.com/koreas/CC17Dg01.html

― Steve Shasta, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 21:19 (eighteen years ago)

I hate America

Try Africa

― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 21:21 (eighteen years ago)

Wait, is that for real?

Paraphrased, but yes. Real.

― Ben Boyerrr, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 21:21 (eighteen years ago)

In the time period between the dormitory and Morris Hall shootings, Cho mailed a package to NBC News, which was received on April 18, 2007. The package apparently contained photographs of himself with weapons, a videotape, and a manifesto in which he declared a desire for revenge against the rich.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

This been up yet?

― MRZBW, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 21:23 (eighteen years ago)

South America counts as America, right?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/04/17/brazil.rio.violence.ap/index.html

― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 21:47 (eighteen years ago)

What's the point of airing this video? That someone else will? The photo on the NBC site is hard to look at. Who needs to see that? What's the purpose? The Unabomber's manifesto would never have been published if he hadn't threatened the Washington Post. WTF?

― Eazy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:05 (eighteen years ago)

Everyone is missing the point that any professional is mulling.

Again, sociopaths are not born bad, they're made that way.

To view this as a mystery or as the result of grim pop cultural energies, is, in the former, a form of self comfort, while the later simply overstates the power of umlats and cookie monsters.

At some point, someone did something--or as deleteriously, did not so something--to this human that caused him to stop being a person. More likely, a series of somethings.

May I suggest Bruce D. Perry, M.D.and Maia Szalvavitz 's "The Boy Who was Raised as a Dog and Other Stories from a Child Psychiatrist's Notebook". Dr, Perry presided over what was left of the Branch Davdians post-Waco. he's been working with sociopathic young people for ages.

― i, grey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:14 (eighteen years ago)

I do not understand this phrase "stopped being a person".

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:18 (eighteen years ago)

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/US/04/18/vtech.shooting/newt1.1814.cho.nbc.jpg

― félix pié, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:21 (eighteen years ago)

I'm using "human" to denote a species, and "person" to describe a functional creature capable of empathy and viewin the world as anything more than a manifestation of his/her agonies.

― i, grey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:21 (eighteen years ago)

That's the thing, Felix. It's great "art". Why show it?

― Eazy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:22 (eighteen years ago)

So you don't think there is any biological basis for people without consciences?

― Mark Rich@rdson, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:22 (eighteen years ago)

The rock band Collective Soul told CNN Wednesday that they were startled to learn that their song "Shine" was a favorite of Cho Sueng-Hui, the Virginia Tech killer.

His roommates said Cho listened to the song over and over, even inscribing the lyrics on the wall of their dormitory room.

"It is an enormous tragedy and we deeply regret the loss of life," the band members said in a statement given to CNN by band manager Jordan Feldstein.

"The issue is not about the song," he said. "It is about the innocent lives that were lost that we regret deeply, as do all Americans."

"Shine" was written by Ed Roland, the band's lead singer.

Some of the lyrics that the taciturn student pored over include:
"Teach me how to speak
Teach me how to share
Teach me where to go
Tell me will love be there (love be there)
Oh, heaven let your light shine down."

― félix pié, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:24 (eighteen years ago)

i'm not sure what you mean, eazy

― félix pié, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:25 (eighteen years ago)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/48/Csoul2006.jpg

― strgn, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:26 (eighteen years ago)

I'm saying, what do we get out of this video and these images being made public, other than telling potential killers that we'll, in essence, publish their manifesto after they've sacrified themselves?

― Eazy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:27 (eighteen years ago)

HAhahah collective soul. I saw them open for Aerosmith(of all people) in Sept 1994. Aerosmith let the opening band use their lightshow, so the big klieg lights would all fire up during the hit single.

That was the first big concert that I fell asleep at.

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:29 (eighteen years ago)

i guess i shouldn't have broken this big story and exposed the image to the world

― félix pié, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:31 (eighteen years ago)

"A spokesperson for mushroom pizza said the fast food was startled to find out it was a favorite of the killer"

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:36 (eighteen years ago)

[i]So you don't think there is any biological basis for people without consciences[i/]

Oh--there is. most certainly there is.

It's now establsihed that early abuse and/or neglect, via over-amping of assorted chemicals and hormones literally changes the architecture of the brain, how it processes information, how it recats to input.

The horrid fact is that, if we had professionals trained in such things, this guy would NOT have been let go from his first visits with our atrocious mental health system.

His symptoms would have been recognized and he would have been given treatment--sociopathy, in some cases, isn't utterly 'soul'-destroying. That he liked those cited lyrics suggests there was still something alive in him worth saving.

― i, grey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:40 (eighteen years ago)

but his music taste was dead : \

― félix pié, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:41 (eighteen years ago)

So. NBC took copies before handing the material over to the police (thus potentially destroying forensic evidence)? Or NBC handed it over to the police if, and presumably only if, the police gave them copies? I don't want to believe - but I do believe - that a deal was cut. And that's hugely troubling.

The footage of the guy from Virginia State Police at the press conference earlier on, stumbling over himself to praise the network and the network's president.. (Why would the police need to speak to the NBC president?). It smells wrong.

The development's being splashed and trailed as a network exclusive, a real coup for NBC.. "We'll be airing excerpts on the Nightly News.." - as though it were a squelch of entertainment news! and not.. what it is..

― Nicholas Passant, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:51 (eighteen years ago)

its fucking disgusting is what it is

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:52 (eighteen years ago)

xp - His symptoms would have been recognized and he would have been given treatment--sociopathy, in some cases, isn't utterly 'soul'-destroying. That he liked those cited lyrics suggests there was still something alive in him worth saving.

Er, hello.. At what stage does one become no longer worth saving?

― Nicholas Passant, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:54 (eighteen years ago)

yeah I'm not convinced of the utility of saying someone is "not a person" simply because they're psychotic.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 22:55 (eighteen years ago)

I thought the conscience was by definition something learned, not genetic.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:01 (eighteen years ago)

i really hope this doesn't spark some vigilante against people who do creative writing

― ken c, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:03 (eighteen years ago)

I hope it does.

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:05 (eighteen years ago)

ok you're right

― ken c, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:06 (eighteen years ago)

I wasn't being clear--and you were right to flag the idea of anyone being " not a person", what with this idea being so central to, say, the Bush imperium.

By 'not a person', I meant it in a tragic way. I meant a person who has been robbed of the tools, the empathic skills needed to interact, the ability to savor anything, to wake up to Corn Flakes instead of an inferno.

I meant *cannot be saved"--as in, no amount of medication/treatment will make him/her able to view and interact in the world in a way that does not put others at extreme risk.

As for "psychotic"--we're talking two different things here. The violence of psychotics, Hollywood aside, is usally limited to self-harm and rare instances, the harm, of a few others unfortunate enough to be nearby. Really, somebody in a psychotic episode is not up to the demends of loading guns, writing letters, killing, taking rime out to write hate letters, and shit the other shit this guy did.

― i, grey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:07 (eighteen years ago)

is that video on youtube yet?

― ken c, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:07 (eighteen years ago)

And to clarify "no amount of medication/treatment will make him/her able to view and interact in the world in a way that does not put others at extreme risk", I would add--No reason nto to keep trying-- inside the appropriate facility.

― i, grey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:10 (eighteen years ago)

Photos are on the NBC news sit, Ken. Enjoy.

― Eazy, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:12 (eighteen years ago)

Jesus Christ--This is MSNBC's tasteful cover page copy:

"Campus massacre
• See photos from shootings, aftermath"

They need Imus back to give them some class.

― i, grey, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:12 (eighteen years ago)

The Fox News frontpage yesterday had a big NY Post/Daily Mirror/Sun style image of the guy's face, with FACE OF A KILLER in 72-pt bold Impact splayed across it.

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:18 (eighteen years ago)

stay classy Fox News

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:19 (eighteen years ago)

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:pB10yuEilJimbM:http://www.big13.net/Achorman%2520photos/Burgandy.jpeg

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:20 (eighteen years ago)

kingfish EVERY paper is doing that!!

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:23 (eighteen years ago)

i sort of refuse to watch the news right now

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:24 (eighteen years ago)

http://hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/ipswich.jpg

― admrl, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:26 (eighteen years ago)

Europe
"Why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year, when presumably, tougher restrictions, such as those in force in European countries, could at least reduce the number?"
—The Times of London, in an editorial delving into the American psyche and the gun laws across the nation

"It is a delusion … to imagine that controls on their own will stop the rise of gun crime, and the killing that results … what is needed is a wholesale shift in the national culture—and that will take rather longer than an arms ban."
—Mangus Linklater, The Times of London columnist

"There's only one real ‘freedom' in America—the freedom to kill one another… if guns weren't so readily available in the ‘land of the free,' this tragedy might never have happened."
—London's Daily Mail columnist Russell Miller

"There is such a high murder rate in the United States that even if you excluded the deaths caused there by the use of guns, their homicide rate would still be higher than ours. In other words, even if there were not a single gun in America, there would still be more murders and manslaughters than in Britain. Bringing gun control to America would not stop it being a country where a lot of people get killed."
—James Bartholomew, political commentator at the Daily Express in London

"[T]he response of many who wish America ill will have been gratuitous schadenfreude. They see a people who live by the gun also dying by it, be they Marines in Anbar province or students in Virginia…. How can American soldiers disarm Iraqi families of their weapons in Baghdad yet claim the right to arm themselves to the teeth back home?"
—The Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins

"In a country where ‘the right to bear arms' is written into the Constitution and where there are an estimated 192 million firearms, the problem isn't simply one of a particular interest group. After the tragedy, voices rose up to deplore the fact that professors and students are not authorized to arm themselves, since one of them could have neutralized the killer. With that kind of reasoning, America is not close to overcoming its violence."
—Excerpts from an editorial headlined "Tragédie Américaine," in France's Le Monde newspaper

"What is, for us, an archaism remains, for many Americans, a fundamental right, a right to remain armed, which is becoming more and more costly. That is the difference between us and them"
—Pierre Rousselin, from Paris's Le Figaro

"In France, we say everything ends in song. In the land of John Wayne, Charlton Heston and George Bush, a great partisan of the NRA, everything, individual anger, heartbreak, neighborhood disputes, quarrels between dealers or depression, ends in shootouts. That is why students die on campuses, without anyone, starting with Hillary Clinton, thinking to do anything much about it."
—Laurent Joffrin, writing in the French newspaper Libération

"In Virginia at the age of 13, you can buy a revolver at a supermarket."
—From the Italian newspaper il Messaggero, in an article headlined Pistole Facili (Easy Guns). Italian newspapers carried extensive comments from Marina Cogo and Giancarlo Bordonaro, two 23-year-old Virginia Tech students from Milan. Cogo is returning home, vowing not to return.

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:28 (eighteen years ago)

boring

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:30 (eighteen years ago)

[Removed Illegal Image]

even to the point of converting the online version(even more) into a single big tabloidy image?

― kingfish, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:31 (eighteen years ago)

xpost
i know, how many of these shootings there going to be? tedious is what it is.

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:32 (eighteen years ago)

did you really think that was going to be constructive?

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:33 (eighteen years ago)

for instance, this isn't true:
"In Virginia at the age of 13, you can buy a revolver at a supermarket."

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:35 (eighteen years ago)

you're an ass.

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:36 (eighteen years ago)

Unless you were posting that to illustrate what bizarre and offensive ideas Europeans have about Americans and American culture.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:36 (eighteen years ago)

yeh, what do they care about the virgina shooting, i mean shouldn't y'all be coming up with new ways to persecute muslims and turks?

― moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:38 (eighteen years ago)

...

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:39 (eighteen years ago)

no no i meant EUROPEANS coming up with ways to persecute muslims + turks

― moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:40 (eighteen years ago)

Guys, ignore him.

― HI DERE, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:40 (eighteen years ago)

i'm still curious: did you post that because you agree with the sentiment, or because it's illustrative of European coverage of what happened, or what?

xp

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:40 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, nevermind

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:41 (eighteen years ago)

because europeans are crazy patronizing towards americans.

― moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:41 (eighteen years ago)

ON ILX

― moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:42 (eighteen years ago)

I liked frogman henry better when he just posted that same assflamethrower.jpg over and over again.

― John Justen, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:42 (eighteen years ago)

count yourself lucky that kid wasn't from NORTH korea.

― ken c, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:42 (eighteen years ago)

Comforting to see that the media is dumb as shit all over the world.

― 31g, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:42 (eighteen years ago)

"because it's illustrative of European coverage of what happened"

yes. on a thread on this subject, perhaps it is pertinent.
oh and dan perry, i'd like nothing better than for you to ignore me.

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:42 (eighteen years ago)

well, then

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:44 (eighteen years ago)

I've never persecuted a Turk in my life

― admrl, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:46 (eighteen years ago)

but you're an expat, see

― moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:47 (eighteen years ago)

dan perry is too lazy to install killfile despite being a huge computer nerd.

― JW, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:47 (eighteen years ago)

it is interesting to see the american reactions tho.

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:47 (eighteen years ago)

Guys, since ILX has a large european contingent am I allowed to call ken c oriental?

― JW, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:48 (eighteen years ago)

killfile world opinion

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:48 (eighteen years ago)

"world opinion"

― moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:49 (eighteen years ago)

^^^^ that would be a good name for an album xp

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:49 (eighteen years ago)

The James Bartholomew bit I found interesting, if only because a lot (but not all, obviously) British people do think like that.

― admrl, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:49 (eighteen years ago)

"world opinion"

hmmm

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:50 (eighteen years ago)

best is that Europe is smaller populationwise than america and they can't even be bothered to make any regional distinctions

― JW, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:51 (eighteen years ago)

admrl: many of my relatives have expressed similar opinions. when i told them i used to live in chicago they were all O RLY? why arent you dead???

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:52 (eighteen years ago)

speak english fuckers

― JW, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:52 (eighteen years ago)

then i told them that i lived in montana and it was lol cowboys

...which is true, at least a few times a week

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:52 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah. One friend of mine called me up just after I moved and said "how many MURDERS have there been in your neighbourhood so far"?

― admrl, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:53 (eighteen years ago)

i think you meant that for the kiwi houseguest thread, jon

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:53 (eighteen years ago)

if switzerland has a lower crime rate than the UK, does that make them morally superior?

― moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:53 (eighteen years ago)

best is that Europe is smaller populationwise than america and they can't even be bothered to make any regional distinctions

In 2005, the population of Europe was estimated to be 728 million according United Nations, which is slightly more than one-ninth of the world's population.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:54 (eighteen years ago)

the irish* people i have met have this notion that al capone's descendents still run chicago.

*possibly not an opinion limited to the irish

― félix pié, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:55 (eighteen years ago)

area-wise, then.

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:55 (eighteen years ago)

Feel sorry for Mrs Adam, everyone outside of North America seems to imagine her home state of "Indiana" as an arid desert scattered with cacti. See The Indiana Cafe in PAris, etc.

― admrl, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:55 (eighteen years ago)

haha, oh man

― river wolf, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:56 (eighteen years ago)

they have wikipedia killfiled.

― Frogman Henry, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:56 (eighteen years ago)

the kiwis are all shocked that I've never been to California -- lol, dudes there's nature on the east coast

xxpost oh snap does that include russia? hmmm even eu is bigger

point stands tho

― JW, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:57 (eighteen years ago)

"What are the Americans like?"

― Hurting 2, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:58 (eighteen years ago)

The music video for "North American Scum" was directed by Ben Dickinson. It features James Murphy initially in a photo shoot, then entering space via a door, planting a DFA Records flag on the moon and engaging LCD Soundsystem live drummer Pat Mahoney in a fight on the moon, and finally leaving space through another door where he meets himself in a room filled with leaves.

― JW, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 23:59 (eighteen years ago)

Look, everyone stop comparing their size of their dicks for a second, this is important: 2004 rapper Jin has recorded a VTech tribute.

http://www.xxlmag.com/online/?p=9306

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:01 (eighteen years ago)

too late dom, we saw yours and it was small

― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:03 (eighteen years ago)

is interesting to see the american reactions tho.

-- Frogman Henry, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 7:47 PM (13 minutes ago)

"interesting" fuck you dude

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:06 (eighteen years ago)

why?

― Frogman Henry, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:09 (eighteen years ago)

Because you're taking an obviously condescending tone

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:11 (eighteen years ago)

Do you really think the Americans on this board willfully ignore what the rest of the world thinks?

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:12 (eighteen years ago)

dude you're arguing with thunderpantz

― JW, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:13 (eighteen years ago)

xxpost
yeah okay. but it is interesting, i mean that. some of the reactions i don't comprehend.

― Frogman Henry, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:15 (eighteen years ago)

which

― JW, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:16 (eighteen years ago)

I was watching the local news with captions on, and they spelled "Imail Ax" as "it is male acts."

― Alex in Baltimore, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:16 (eighteen years ago)

er, Ismail.

― Alex in Baltimore, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:16 (eighteen years ago)

"Do you really think the Americans on this board willfully ignore what the rest of the world thinks?"

no, which was why i made the post!

― Frogman Henry, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:17 (eighteen years ago)

i do apologise for lumping a number of different posters' reactions as "american", tho.

― Frogman Henry, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:22 (eighteen years ago)

One friend of mine called me up just after I moved and said "how many MURDERS have there been in your neighbourhood so far"?

That's wack!

(I've known Americans who thought that polarbears roamed the streets of Norway.

And we all lived in igloos of course.)

― MRZBW, Thursday, 19 April 2007 00:56 (eighteen years ago)

Du er Norsk? Hyggelig å treffe deg!

― admrl, Thursday, 19 April 2007 01:03 (eighteen years ago)

etc

― admrl, Thursday, 19 April 2007 01:03 (eighteen years ago)

well, his manifesto was better written than his shitty plays

― akm, Thursday, 19 April 2007 01:15 (eighteen years ago)

"And as long as we cling to our OTHER beloved amendments, like the First, for instance, you're free to spew whatever dumbass bullshit you want. Understand, Trotsky?

-- Manalishi, Wednesday, 18 April 2007 11:45 (Yesterday)

Wow. That might actually be the dumbest thing I've heard all year. Congratualtions Komrade, your prize is in the mail.

― j-rock, Thursday, 19 April 2007 01:39 (eighteen years ago)

I know Cho was far beyond any semblance of reason BUT! dude had a pretty nice car and laptop and guns and liberal arts degree (from a tech school?) for someone whose manifesto was aimed at people of privelege and money.

His older Princeton-educated sister has understandably declined to speak to the media.

― Steve Shasta, Thursday, 19 April 2007 02:00 (eighteen years ago)

^^P R I V I L E G E

― Steve Shasta, Thursday, 19 April 2007 02:01 (eighteen years ago)

students be hypocritical shockah?

― ken c, Thursday, 19 April 2007 02:17 (eighteen years ago)

i blame emo

― abanana, Thursday, 19 April 2007 02:54 (eighteen years ago)

i think he's cute

― wanko ergo sum, Thursday, 19 April 2007 03:04 (eighteen years ago)

[Removed Illegal Link]

I was wondering how long it would be before the media started blaming Oldboy.

― Nicole, Thursday, 19 April 2007 03:22 (eighteen years ago)

Never mind. Stupid nu-ilx.

― Nicole, Thursday, 19 April 2007 03:22 (eighteen years ago)

u broek ilx

― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 19 April 2007 03:22 (eighteen years ago)

awwwwww fuuuuuuuck

not here, not now!

― bernard snowy, Thursday, 19 April 2007 03:24 (eighteen years ago)

I blame bbcode. And the parents.

― Nicole, Thursday, 19 April 2007 03:25 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.jerkbeast.com/images2/choseung_buckets.1176954590.jpg

― cankles, Thursday, 19 April 2007 06:44 (eighteen years ago)

This isn't 4chan, cankles.

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 06:58 (eighteen years ago)

(clarification: I'm not too bothered that this kind of thing exists and I'm sure people are putting the words from his video messages to music as we speak, but there are other places and noise boards where this belongs)

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 07:10 (eighteen years ago)

"shame on you for giving him a platform, blame yourselves when copycats show up"

OTM.

( http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/thread.aspx?BoardID=378&ThreadID=261584 )

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 07:12 (eighteen years ago)

Feel sorry for Mrs Adam, everyone outside of North America seems to imagine her home state of "Indiana" as an arid desert scattered with cacti. See The Indiana Cafe in PAris, etc.

This is not true, my only vision of Indiana is from 'The Music Man' so naturally I assume that it is a place of striped flannel jackets, boaters and people randomly bursting into song. In fact, I suspect the whole state to be scored by Rogers and Hammerstein.

― Ed, Thursday, 19 April 2007 07:14 (eighteen years ago)

don't be such a Stan

― JW, Thursday, 19 April 2007 07:30 (eighteen years ago)

ok!

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 07:32 (eighteen years ago)

Apparently, he's referencing Oldboy (South Korean movie that nearly won the Palme d'Or at the Cannes film festival) in his pictures:

http://images.google.com/images?q=oldboy

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 07:34 (eighteen years ago)

( Oldboy plot outline )

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 07:35 (eighteen years ago)

best is that Europe is smaller populationwise than america and they can't even be bothered to make any regional distinctions 

Rofflicious.

there are female mass murderers, but they tend to kill family members and employ womb-like means to dispatch their victims (e.g. drowning, suffocation, etc) rather than guns.

-- Edward III, Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:33 PM (13 minutes ago)

hahahaha hi dere 19th century psychoanalysis

Uh, statistics? I mean, just like serial killers are more prominent in the US than Europe.

― nathalie, Thursday, 19 April 2007 07:54 (eighteen years ago)

[img=http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9127/candles0527cd1.jpg]

― Kerm, Thursday, 19 April 2007 08:48 (eighteen years ago)

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9127/candles0527cd1.jpg

― Kerm, Thursday, 19 April 2007 08:49 (eighteen years ago)

I has a candle?

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 08:52 (eighteen years ago)

This has to be the dumbest thing i've read yet

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/18/where-is-atheism-when-bad-things-happen/

(dumber even than 'if only we had more guns this wouldn't happen' - then again, i am a brit)

it's like an onion article, yet not

― Alan, Thursday, 19 April 2007 10:24 (eighteen years ago)

Jesus! If you're an university researcher I'd assume you know physics and ethics are two entirely different fields, and even Ricrahd Dawkins would probably agree with that.

― Tuomas, Thursday, 19 April 2007 10:39 (eighteen years ago)

There is much OTMness in the comments (on the first page at least) there.

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 10:40 (eighteen years ago)

that d'souza article makes me want to go on a murderous rampage

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 10:58 (eighteen years ago)

The photo on the NBC site is hard to look at.

i first saw it in the supermarket this morning, plastered all over the british daily newspapers, accompanied by the ugliest imaginable headlines. sickening.

― stevie, Thursday, 19 April 2007 12:28 (eighteen years ago)

So, because the video was sent to NBC this is now in the ENTERTAINMENT section at Google News?

http://news.google.com/?ned=us&topic=e

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 12:30 (eighteen years ago)

"accompanied by the ugliest imaginable headlines. sickening."

were they "I HAS BUCKETS"?

― Alan, Thursday, 19 April 2007 12:34 (eighteen years ago)

The Daily Mail in London's front page today: a zoom-in of the pic where he's pointing a gun at the camera and the headline says "THE LAST THING HIS VICTIMS SAW..."

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 April 2007 12:37 (eighteen years ago)

Good old daily mail

― secondhandnews, Thursday, 19 April 2007 12:42 (eighteen years ago)

were they "I HAS BUCKETS"?

guilty roffle

― stevie, Thursday, 19 April 2007 12:52 (eighteen years ago)

The Daily Mail in London's front page today: a zoom-in of the pic where he's pointing a gun at the camera and the headline says "THE LAST THING HIS VICTIMS SAW..."

-- Tracer Hand, Thursday, April 19, 2007 1:37 PM (14 minutes ago)

yeah, that one in particular. fuck. why do the media feel this need to reframe events so they closer resemble action movie cliches? is it connected with the head-fuckedness of right wing commentators who criticise the victims with their chuck norris fantasies of 'fighting back'?

― stevie, Thursday, 19 April 2007 12:53 (eighteen years ago)

Even the beeb is at it.

In pictures: Killer's chilling video
In quotes: Gunman's message
watch Killer's TV video

― Ned Trifle II, Thursday, 19 April 2007 13:41 (eighteen years ago)

24/7 news channels have killed news, just like 24/7 music channels killed music videos.

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 13:46 (eighteen years ago)

They also had the shooter's name and identified him as being from South Korea. How that's going to get taken out of context, who knows.

now they can blame chan-wook park and his revenge trilogy

-- Edward III, Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:00 AM (Yesterday)

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/updates-on-virginia-tech/

The poses in the two images are similar, and the plot of the movie, “Oldboy,” seems dark enough to merit at least some further study.

NEWSFLASH: man obssessed with violent revenge likes film about man obssessed with violent revenge.

I better just stop watching the new for a couple of days so I can avoid the outrage pundits will be spluttering about oldboy.

I BLAME COLLECTIVE SOUL

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 13:49 (eighteen years ago)

I've wanted to see Oldboy for some time. (I never want to hear Collective Soul ever again, but that was also the case for about a decade.)

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:06 (eighteen years ago)

so i saw grindhouse last night and, for some reason, the scenes with El Ray, expert killer, were just a teensy bit uncomfortable

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:15 (eighteen years ago)

Oldboy was really disturbing for me.

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:16 (eighteen years ago)

oldboy is very terrible.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:16 (eighteen years ago)

In fact a friend of ours was raving about it and gave us a bootleg of it. Then after watching it, it was hard for me to look at him the same way.

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:16 (eighteen years ago)

So have you guys covered his Contemporary Horror class? with Saw? English electives just ain't what they usta be.

― Dr Morbius, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:19 (eighteen years ago)

"Wedding Belles", written by Irvine Welsh and somebody else, aired the night of the shooting; I tuned it in and the very first scene was the execution, by handgun, of four men on their knees, done in a "ho ho this is hilarious" style. I turned the TV off :/

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:21 (eighteen years ago)

No mention of Kim Di-Duk yet?

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:23 (eighteen years ago)

Durrrr Kim Ki-Duk

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:24 (eighteen years ago)

Ridiculous. I love the whole chan-wook park revenge trilogy. Disturbing? Highly but still very good and since I'm not already batshit insane, I'm not going to go out and off a crapload of people. grrr. This kind of thing makes me so mad.

― ENBB, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:28 (eighteen years ago)

this is not the best place to debate the merits of oldboy, but it is a very disturbing film. I wouldn't lend it to someone without a disclaimer.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:29 (eighteen years ago)

also no fishhooks appear in multimedia manifesto so no mention of ki-duk as of yet

xpost to will m

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:31 (eighteen years ago)

if he wanted to be like oldboy he would have used a claw hammer, not a glock

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:32 (eighteen years ago)

this is not the best place to debate the merits of oldboy,

Sorry, this thread has seemed to derail a bit several times.

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:33 (eighteen years ago)

I guess so Edward III but I found the Isle way more disturbing than Oldboy, and since we were talknig about disturbing film from S.K...

Then again I found the Uninvited more disturbing than both. And not that much happens in that film.

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:34 (eighteen years ago)

xpost to Edward III - Nor would I.

― ENBB, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:34 (eighteen years ago)

Wait, not the uninvited. This is the wrong movie I am looking at the synopsis for now. Uhh... dang. Lemme find the right flick

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:35 (eighteen years ago)

tale of two sisters?

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:37 (eighteen years ago)

Wait, It's called Uninvited: http://imdb.com/title/tt0358345/

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:37 (eighteen years ago)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/thelede/cho_hammer_medium.jpg

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:39 (eighteen years ago)

That almost borders on racism. If he was white or black or middle eastern and holding a hammer, would they reference oldboy?

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:43 (eighteen years ago)

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:44 (eighteen years ago)

I'm also kind of relieved that the picture with the hammer is a reference to something, for some reason I found that way more disturbing than the pictures with the guns.

― Alex in Baltimore, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:44 (eighteen years ago)

I never really know whether to post to these 1000-plus post threads after the fact, but I'm in Peru so everything was delayed two days while I was up in the mountains, rumor we heard was that it was a terrorist attack that left 30 dead. I'm glad it's not simply because that would give Bushco an excuse to pass more fucked up laws and whip up the fear factor.

One of the dead was a Peruvian, so this has been in the front pages here as well. His father, a psychologist, was quoted as saying (and I translate) "the real tragedy here is the easy availability of firearms in the United States". The fact that so many Americans further on up this thread are so hostile and defensive towards the opinion of, like, the entire world is both predictable and depressing (e.g. the response to Frogman Henry´s news quotes). Not to mention the disengenuous tactic of bringing up other countries' problems as a red herring to distract from the actual issue.

Edward III, Ms Misery, and iangrey are the only people on this thread (which, admittedly, I only skimmed last night) who seem to me to have something insightful to say here. Also Ned picks out significant detaisl as always. So thanks, y'all. Most of the rest of the American responses here make me ashamed.

― sleeve, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:45 (eighteen years ago)

but the killer kid at the top is south korean whereas the dude at the bottom is chinese...

― ken c, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:48 (eighteen years ago)

wait no, they're both south korean

― ken c, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:52 (eighteen years ago)

Thank you sleeve.

An interesting e-mail just now at NROville aka the Corner, sent to Lowry from a professor at Virginia Tech:

Your question about how much a student has to do to get kicked off of campus is a serious one, but I'm not sure that it has as easy an answer as you think it does.

Cho was clearly mentally ill, but unfortunately that's not as rare as you would think. Helen Smith estimated the rate at about 1% or 250 VT students for traits of psychopathy alone. I have had several students to whom I suggested counseling. On what grounds should we expel students? Extreme creepiness? You make your fellow students nervous, get out? How many of the denizens of The Corner would have been able to get an education? (Congratulate me. My first joke in two days.) I assure you that everyone at Virginia Tech would be interested in knowing how to separate the mass murderers from the hundreds of harmless crazies we have studying (and teaching) here.

Cho was investigated by the police for "annoying" two girls, he cooperated and broke off contact. He was processed through the campus discipline system, he complied. He was encouraged to seek mental health care, he went to St. Albans. The police claim that they never had a report of any direct threat that he made. I have yet to hear anyone seriously suggest that he could have been involuntarily hospitalized. I don't question that we didn't do enough - the results speak for themselves. But I'm getting pretty damned sick of hearing "Virginia Tech did nothing" from people who haven't bothered to read the direct reports of the police.

You guys on The Corner have a choice to make. You can do some real research and enter a serious discussion, or you can toss off gratuitous insults at people who watched 32 of their colleagues die.

Which is it gonna be?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:52 (eighteen years ago)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/thelede/cho_hammer_medium.jpg
http://theunderweardrawer.homestead.com/files/bush_with_hammer.jpg

― Tom D., Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:52 (eighteen years ago)

haha well he's talking to The Corner so that's kind of a stupid question

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:53 (eighteen years ago)

Sleeve, I think you're missing the point of the American responses (aside from the one or two gung-ho pro gun posters).

I've always supported tighter gun laws. In fact, if not for the Second Amendment I would be fine with outlawing handguns, at least in populous areas (we can't pick and choose with the constitution).

The problem is that "world opinion" -- by which you really mean a selection of smug newspaper columnists -- is opportunistically using a really horrifying, difficult to explain tragedy as a chance to finger wag at the U.S., as though it's really the imagined archetype of the gun-toting Southern wacko who's responsible for the massacre.

Massacres happen in other countries too, and you don't usually see U.S. newspaper columnists jumping to blame their "national culture"

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:54 (eighteen years ago)

pictureofsomeonewithhammer.jpg amirite???

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/thelede/cho_hammer_medium.jpg
http://theunderweardrawer.homestead.com/files/bush_with_hammer.jpg
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:f4mU5DxnLdH52M:http://web.knoxnews.com/web/blackhistory/color/ent_hammer.gif

― ken c, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)

haha hurting that's bullshit, have you ever read some of the press on I think "muslims" they're calling them?

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

fair enough, sleeve, but the "world opinion" posted above was also a bit predictable and depressing

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:58 (eighteen years ago)

and yeah, uh, there are about a bazillion columnists in america ready and waiting to jump all over muslims

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:58 (eighteen years ago)

"Wedding Belles", written by Irvine Welsh and somebody else, aired the night of the shooting;

I thought of Irvine Welsh when I read in the papers this morning about how they should have spotted Cho as a nutter threat because his writing had lots of sex and violence and sexual violence.

― onimo, Thursday, 19 April 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

personally i think a national culture that includes no guaranteed healthcare, pitiful welfare systems, almost nonexistent arts funding, threadbare education budgets, total crumbling of practically all non-church civic orgs and structures, but a military budget that dwarfs all other countries put together plus laws that make it easier to get a handgun than permission to build a patio sort of sends exactly the kind of "fuck you, you're on your own" message that drive outcast malcontents like the shooter into the paranoid corner he found himself in

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:00 (eighteen years ago)

haha hurting that's bullshit, have you ever read some of the press on I think "muslims" they're calling them?

Ok fair enough - in fact that did pop into my head after I posted.

So U.S columnists do it to, but that doesn't make it any better.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:02 (eighteen years ago)

Tracer, I agree with everything you say except the idea that there's a causal link between all those things and a psychotic murder spree.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:02 (eighteen years ago)

so what you guys we're still number one

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

Well except maybe in a looser sense that it's easier to become a loner in a fragmented modern society.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

have you seen our entertainment industry and our big green combine harvesters

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

it's astonishing how quickly knee-jerk tribalism erupts within me when any non-american starts ragging on any aspect of the US.. the night before i'd probably been ranting about the exact same thing, but suddenly when it's somebody from somewhere else i'll be all like "i'm not sure that's exactly true"

hurting if i knew what specifically caused this kid to do what he did do you think i'd be sitting here at work posting on the internet about it, hell no, i'd be booking interviews and renting giant boats

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:04 (eighteen years ago)

stop apologising for the killers tracer

― ken c, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

it's astonishing how quickly knee-jerk tribalism erupts within me when any non-american starts ragging on any aspect of the US.

I had a Kiwi try to explain irony to me and I was all, dude you're just unfunny!

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

renting giant boats

???

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

Sleeve, I think you're missing the point of the American responses

yes, but that was done purposefully, to make a smug post, do you see?

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

I had a Kiwi try to explain irony to me and I was all, dude you're just unfunny!

haha you grasped it!

― ken c, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:07 (eighteen years ago)

i still don't really know what it is

― ken c, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:08 (eighteen years ago)

It's human - no matter how worthy of criticism your family/home/country/whatever is, it's obnoxious when someone else who doesn't really know it well enough starts knocking it in an inexact way.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:08 (eighteen years ago)

Sam giant boats can hold more people, and more liquor, than the small kind

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:09 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah Peru has a clean slate when it comes to guns.
http://www.skidmore.edu/~jdym/hi109/DSqD-1.jpg
Check the record!

― sexyDancer, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.glasgowvirginia.org/images/smokey_bear_face.gifonly you can beat your wife

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:12 (eighteen years ago)

Good point. Since bad things have happened in Peru, things are less bad in America. Logic is NEAT

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:13 (eighteen years ago)

has any congresscritter brought up GTA yet?

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:16 (eighteen years ago)

but nobody got runover...

― ken c, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

Catsup, Jack Thompson went on FOX News on the day of the shooting and blamed video games before anyone even knew who the killer was.

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:26 (eighteen years ago)

Jack is a real piece of work. I should have save the voicemails he left on my machine at the office. Hilarious stuff.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

does anyone know why he targeted the engineering building?

― Yerac, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

engineering school, yeah?

― sexyDancer, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:31 (eighteen years ago)

Have you MET any engineers lately? Gawd.

― Laurel, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:32 (eighteen years ago)

LAUREL OTM

I dated someone in engineering school at Cornell once. I'd never seen a 20 y/o so stressed out.

― molly mummenschanz, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)

so wait I'm confused, stressed = homicidal? This guy was an English major which, you know, not big on stress.

(Okay I'm going to stop being flippant on this thread)

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:46 (eighteen years ago)

Even though he targeted the engineering building, it seems that most of the classes he targeted were foreign language classes.

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)

engineers rhymes with queers. that's my expert commentary.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:57 (eighteen years ago)

Dennis Perrin on fiction profiling:

Cho's plays... are alarming only in the sense of being horribly written and poorly thought out. ... What some enterprising student should do is submit portions of Octave Mirbeau's "The Torture Garden" under their own name and see how their teacher or prof reacts. Or parts of William Burroughs' "Nova Express." Or bits from Kathy Acker's books. Or Dennis Cooper's. Or Donald Goines'. It might prove to be an illuminating experiment on how a young, "strange" creative person is perceived by his or her elders, as well as a test of a teacher's literary knowledge.

― Dr Morbius, Thursday, 19 April 2007 15:59 (eighteen years ago)

Speaking of videogames, anyone link to this yet:

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/chos-manifesto-everywhere/#comment-36265

That comment offers the most convincing-sounding explanation of the "Ishmael Ax" thing that I've heard yet.

Most of the other explanations have been way too literary - does anyone really think this guy was into "Moby Dick"?

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:03 (eighteen years ago)

Did he make any statements about targeting specific classes or was it truly random?

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:03 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think anyone yet knows why he chose the victims that he did - even the connection between him and the girl in the dorm is not known, as far as I've heard.

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:04 (eighteen years ago)

the bomb threats were all for the engineering building too, right?

― Yerac, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:06 (eighteen years ago)

so what you guys we're still number one

Not according to the Economist:

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_JDDVNGT

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:09 (eighteen years ago)

Grrr premium content

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

Oh, sorry. Here's the text of it:

"WE ARE the champions!” soccer fans chant when their team wins. Likewise, Americans are proud of their country's number-one position in the world economy. Yet, slowly but surely, team America is being overtaken in all sorts of economic rankings, both meaningful and meaningless.

America used to be the world's biggest exporter. First it was pushed aside by Germany and now it has been outclassed by China, where merchandise exports exceeded America's in the second half of last year. China also produced more cars than the United States for the first time last year. And Toyota is widely tipped to overtake General Motors this year as the world's biggest car company.

In global finance, too, America and the dollar are being shoved off their pedestal. The dollar is still preferred by central banks as a reserve currency, but it is no longer the favourite form of cash for households and firms. There are now more euro notes and coins in circulation than there are dollars. In the international bond market, the euro has displaced the dollar as the main currency. And, according to the Financial Times, Wall Street's stockmarket capitalisation has now been eclipsed by Europe (admittedly taking a rather wide definition of Europe, which includes Russia). The world's biggest company is still American—at least according to Fortune, which put Exxon Mobil in pole position in 2006. In fact, Saudi Aramco, though not a listed company, boasts bigger revenues.

Europe's overtaking of America in some rankings is mainly due to the weaker dollar, which could be reversed. The more serious challenge comes from China, which has been growing three times faster. Goldman Sachs expects China's GDP (at market exchange rates) to top America's by 2027. On a purchasing-power parity basis, China is likely to become number one within just four years.

Of course, America still tops many league tables by a wide margin. For example, it is the world's biggest debtor nation; it guzzles the most energy; and it has the biggest prison population. But perhaps these are not things to boast about. And, yes, economic rankings are not the only sort; but that may not always be a comfort for competitive-minded Americans. For instance, if the trend of the past three Olympics continues, China will win more gold medals than America in Beijing.

A winner in second place
There will be plenty of hand-wringing in the years ahead. But does being the biggest economy matter? It helps to ensure military superiority; it gives a country more say in fixing international rules; and as the issuer of the main reserve currency, America can borrow more cheaply. But being number one cannot be an end in itself. The goal of policy should be to maximise a country's absolute rate of growth, not its relative rate.

Losing top place in the economic league is different from being beaten in sport, where for every winner there is a loser. Economic competition is not a zero-sum game. China's economy will overtake America's not because the United States is in terminal decline, but because China is catching up. And faster growth in China and other emerging economies will benefit America's economy, not harm it. If an obsession with remaining number one foolishly caused America to adopt protectionist policies, that would reduce America's growth as much as China's. It is better to be number two in a fast-growing world than number one in a stagnant one.

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

Economic competition is not a zero-sum game

haha who the fuck wrote this

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

Perhaps it's misguided of me, but I think that Economist writer displays a touch of quintessentially British glee at the thought of a pre-eminent world power (other than itself) facing a slow but inevitable decline.

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

Economic competition is not a zero-sum game

I don't see what's objectionable about this statement.

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

they've been doing that for years. I'm more than a little perturbed by the fact that they quote the same tired stats about Chinese growth and leave out the massive consumer debt pileup and social upheaval going on over there, but they can pick and choose I guess.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

― Tom D., Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

The article has a dozen flaws in about as many different directions.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:26 (eighteen years ago)

e.g. the world economy will never stop growing because it hasn't been proven yet that the earth can't support 11 billion human beings, all with computer science, engineering and finance degrees

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:26 (eighteen years ago)

HAHAHAHA.

― suzy, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:28 (eighteen years ago)

the economist and I officially parted ways when they made their cover story about how our troops leaving iraq would be a terrible decision

they changed editorial staff sometime in the past year, I think

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:28 (eighteen years ago)

OH NOES OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALS

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:29 (eighteen years ago)

it's bullshit is what's objectionable about it. It's the half-macro perspective you get from bullish twits who think things like "another massive vein of premium coal to burn! growth can now continue unabated for another decade!"

It's a pretty basic statement of the fact that having to share the pie is not necessarily bad as long as the pie is getting bigger. Sure, it's a generalization that doesn't always apply, but it could apply in this instance - if growth happens in the right way.

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:30 (eighteen years ago)

There is the outside chance that alternative energy/smart growth/green planning etc. will catch up to our energy needs before it's too late, and also maybe that increasing education will lead to declining birth rates, but I'm not optimistic yet.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

if a thread goes long enough it's going to inevitably turn into a discussion about economics and trade

― félix pié, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:17 (eighteen years ago)

declining birth rates can and will have massive negative effects on the economy. you think OUR generation has a gigantic, impossible debt burden, wait until we fail to hit the replacement quota for reproduction and shoot the dependency ratio even higher. of course, none of us are ever going to be able to afford retirement, so there is that.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:20 (eighteen years ago)

"growth happening the right way" = we automate all labor with advanced, clean-running robots and retrofit our farms and energy systems to ecological sustainability, have 1.15 kids per family and make the 40-hour week optional (in the increased-leisure way, not the current mode where 40 hours is an option for "slackers"). Right? That's going to happen.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:24 (eighteen years ago)

Well, the developed, rich nations have a difficult position in trying to convince the developing nations of the world that they can't grow their economies because the world's resources can only handle so many wasteful consumers and, hey, we've used up the quota already.

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:28 (eighteen years ago)

FOXNEWS investigates whether the devil is the blame

Was Cho Seung-Hui schizophrenic... psychotic... manic-depressive? Or were the shooting deaths of 32 people, including Cho himself, at Virginia Tech University part of the ongoing struggle between God and Satan... good against evil... lightness and darkness?

Could Cho have been possessed by the Devil? Could that explain the massacre at Virginia Tech?

Dr. Richard Roberts, president of Oral Roberts University, shouts an unequivocal "Yes!"

― iiiijjjj, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

I should have save the voicemails he left on my machine at the office.

for legal reasons duh

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:40 (eighteen years ago)

Surely FoxNews keeps the "News" part of it's name as a reference to their owner and not the actual concept of news.

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:42 (eighteen years ago)

Guys guys guys, Ismail Ax = he wuz MUSLIM!

First it was Johnny Muhammad, now it was Cho Sueng Hui aka Ismail Ax. Precisely how many mass shooters have to turn out to have adopted Muslim names before we get it? Islam has become the tribe of choice of those who hate American society. I'm not talking about people who grew up as Muslims, confident and secure in their faith, good fathers, sons and neighbors. I'm talking about the angry, malignant, narcissist loners who want to reject their community utterly, to throw off their 'slave name' and represent the downtrodden of the earth by shooting their friends and neighbors.

Haha, this guy wins extra points for implied insult of the last sentence. It's like appreciation modern art! You can project anything from your mindset onto an abstract feature!

― kingfish, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:51 (eighteen years ago)

oh i read that

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:55 (eighteen years ago)

i'm not sure how psychologically fucked-up people and their misconception of a religion has anything to do with the religion itself, but then again this is right wing logic we're talking about

― félix pié, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:57 (eighteen years ago)

appreciation of, rather

― kingfish, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:58 (eighteen years ago)

slave name?!!?

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Thursday, 19 April 2007 17:59 (eighteen years ago)

you know, from when we enslaved all those koreans

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:01 (eighteen years ago)

korean slaves--those were the days

― max, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:02 (eighteen years ago)

Students at Virgina Tech are being given the option to complete their semester's course work based on what they've done up until this week. That's a lot of space they're giving everyone.

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:04 (eighteen years ago)

I don't understand?

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:04 (eighteen years ago)

That's a lot of space they're giving everyone.

? Huh? What are you talking about?

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:05 (eighteen years ago)

Cho Sueng-hui cum Ismail Ax hated the American society to which he had been brought 15 years earlier. His play McBeef (a poor pun from an English Lit major on Macbeth) is one endless screed against the corruption of American culture. A cheesy re-telling of Shakespeare's Hamlet, it involves a young man abused by his step-father, a former NFL football player. The son, throws epithets at his father calling him a 'Catholic priest'. And makes derisive comments about McDonalds. It seems that none of the foundational structures of Western Civilization, Christianity, capitalism, family, are spared his rage.

― and what, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:06 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

I mean a lot of leeway being given the students due to the tragedy.

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:06 (eighteen years ago)

huh. i'm speechless.

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:07 (eighteen years ago)

there's only several weeks left in the academic year, it's not much leeway at this point

― félix pié, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:08 (eighteen years ago)

The "based on what they've done up until this point" is the bit i don't get

― Will M., Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:08 (eighteen years ago)

The website said students may request to receive a grade based on the work already completed this term (and be done.)

Yeah I guess it is close to the end of the semester. where the hell has spring gone. . .

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:10 (eighteen years ago)

considering that large projects/papers/final exams due in the last weeks usually represent a disproportionate amount of your grade, yeah, it's a lot of leeway.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:10 (eighteen years ago)

considering the circumstances i don't even think it's q

― félix pié, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:12 (eighteen years ago)

considering the circumstances i don't even think it's question as to whether or not this option would have been offered

― félix pié, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:12 (eighteen years ago)

a question

― félix pié, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:12 (eighteen years ago)

got it out there? ;)

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:16 (eighteen years ago)

in one of the high school's in my area a kid pointed a gun at a few other students and then shot himself. wonder if it was related or if this was pre-planned or coincidental.

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:18 (eighteen years ago)

happened yesterday, that is

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:18 (eighteen years ago)

oh shit

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:19 (eighteen years ago)

sounds like a complete coincidence to me!

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:22 (eighteen years ago)

As long as he didn't have HEN FAP on his name, it wasn't one of us.

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:39 (eighteen years ago)

StanM, are you saying that ilxors have no choice but being retards?

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:44 (eighteen years ago)

No, not at all, we want tougher gum control and fewer hen guns. I'm just saying that, if one of us would ever be possessed by the devil ("8080: the devil's port"), he'd have surely written Hen Fap on his arm.

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:50 (eighteen years ago)

(this isn't funny, is it? I'll stop)

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:52 (eighteen years ago)

no no, "the devil's port" was kinda funny

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:54 (eighteen years ago)

devil's port was chuckle-in-my-head funny

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:58 (eighteen years ago)

in other words, at least twice as good as anything on an EXCELSIOR thread

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 18:58 (eighteen years ago)

it's not "i wish cho seung-hui had shot ghost rider" funny, but you take what you can get

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:08 (eighteen years ago)

"8080"

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:09 (eighteen years ago)

yeah, or lol death penalty for no-one but ethan and river wolf funny, but what is?

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:09 (eighteen years ago)

almost as funny as "[i hope/you deserve] prison and rape." roffle. i wish you guys would die.

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:11 (eighteen years ago)

;_;
,
,
,
,
,
_________________________________

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:16 (eighteen years ago)

lol neither of those dudes said that to you, mickey, keep pplz straight! you have a lot of time on yr hands what with the home arrest and all, make a jaymc.xls.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:18 (eighteen years ago)

mickey i swear to you i would never insult someone so cruelly as to suggest they rape you

― and what, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:19 (eighteen years ago)

i don't even know who they are. but fuck them anyways! and ally, that ended a while ago. do pay attention. or are you just pasting the wrong line?

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:23 (eighteen years ago)

ok that was actually hilarious, ethan.

xpost yeah it's really fucking obvious you don't know who anyone is! that was why the whole famous bloggers conversation was fuckin hilarious dude! "do pay attention" etc.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:24 (eighteen years ago)

yeah ally it was hilarious how you made it clear you don't know shit

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:27 (eighteen years ago)

lol it sure is hilarious how kingfish says the exact same thing as me, but only i am called out for it

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:28 (eighteen years ago)

"8080" choke on a cock

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:28 (eighteen years ago)

awwww c'mon mickey, let's try to love one another

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:28 (eighteen years ago)

i'm sorry, i don't actually care enough about you to follow your legal troubles, i don't mean to hurt your feelings darling. i do find it touching that out of everyone here you took the time to figure out who i was before spouting your mouth off about what people do and do not know.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:29 (eighteen years ago)

http://static.flickr.com/37/76935539_2223f3663a.jpg

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:30 (eighteen years ago)

also, kingfish doesn't strike me as the type of dude who'd request mass murderers to come shoot up other ilxors! he seems so amicable. i'm simply shocked by this.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:30 (eighteen years ago)

different thread, baby girl, pay attention. now what were we saying about pissing all over your face with an erection?

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:31 (eighteen years ago)

ooh i like it when you get all rapey mo on me.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:33 (eighteen years ago)

DO go on.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:33 (eighteen years ago)

you tease

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:34 (eighteen years ago)

mickey you had better fucking hope to god I never ever have an excuse to end up in your neck of the fucking woods

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:34 (eighteen years ago)

you are going to need some fucking surgery

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:34 (eighteen years ago)

http://movies.hsx.com/news/reviews/assets/couch.jpg

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:34 (eighteen years ago)

TOMBOT, lets hang out some time dude

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

oh, let's please do

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

I don't know who anybody is but I also don't care what anybody says so it all works out in the end

― bernard snowy, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:35 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/books/biscover.gif

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

do they have medical where you wait tables

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

"workplace bullying"??

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:36 (eighteen years ago)

mickey if I'm ever in Charlotte I'll hang out with you

(I'm never in Charlotte)

― bernard snowy, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:37 (eighteen years ago)

awww that's mean of you to go on like that.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:37 (eighteen years ago)

wow this thread's really gotten nuts.

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:37 (eighteen years ago)

"lol internet"

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:38 (eighteen years ago)

yeah this thread about a massacre got way too violent

― iiiijjjj, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:38 (eighteen years ago)

am i rite?

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:38 (eighteen years ago)

no, more like lol underemployed wannabe journalists ;_;

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:39 (eighteen years ago)

TOMBOT maybe you should take out your anger in the form of a WEBCOMIC! maybe that other dude can get it tattood on his ass or something

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:40 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.wgmd.com/images/JOCKS/new-mattdrudge.jpg http://www.wgmd.com/images/JOCKS/new-mattdrudge.jpg http://www.wgmd.com/images/JOCKS/new-mattdrudge.jpg http://www.wgmd.com/images/JOCKS/new-mattdrudge.jpg http://www.wgmd.com/images/JOCKS/new-mattdrudge.jpg http://www.wgmd.com/images/JOCKS/new-mattdrudge.jpg

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:41 (eighteen years ago)

ts heavily complimented tattoo vs universally derided belly button ring ;_;

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:41 (eighteen years ago)

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s309/seckzimorgan/1176879133214zc1st9.jpg

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:42 (eighteen years ago)

guys do you ever wonder if you are pushing Richard MickeyBeef too far

― iiiijjjj, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:43 (eighteen years ago)

wait good point

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:44 (eighteen years ago)

when did "universally" mean ilx

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:44 (eighteen years ago)

ally you should get out more, really

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:44 (eighteen years ago)

maybe you should spend more time in these non-ilx places where ppl think your bellybutton ring is cool?

― and what, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:45 (eighteen years ago)

sweet lord

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)

hi mickey, i know it is hard to believe but ghost rider is my real life friend who i go out in public with and see regularly and know v well outside the magical world of internets.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:46 (eighteen years ago)

no wonder you guys share the talking points so well

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)

what do you think guys for real should I start a webcomic MICKEY OF THE APOCALYPSE CREW people will buy my stickers and t-shirts? I can just take this picture and put words in his mouth like the FBI did
http://craphound.com/images/campusdownlaodingstill.jpg

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)

so universally means also by drunk ppl in bars :D

none of these ppl have ever said anything nice about belly button rings, though. i can ask them.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)

ethan, i have a job where i spend all day on the internet. goodluck finding one some day.

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:47 (eighteen years ago)

TOMBOT, definitely

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:48 (eighteen years ago)

if there is one thing i do NOT need to do is go out MORE, christ. what terrible, terrible advice.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:48 (eighteen years ago)

ally, yeah, none of the girls i've dated ever liked it before me either. oh no, willingly doing something unpopular shocka!!!!

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:49 (eighteen years ago)

xxxpost

that's everyone on ilx, duh!

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:49 (eighteen years ago)

surprise surprise, mickey getting off on people thinking something he's doing is really, really unattractive and unseemly!

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:49 (eighteen years ago)

none of the girls i've dated ever liked it before me either.

wait, i just spotted the bizarre "mistake" in this sentence and i am laughing a bit too much.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:50 (eighteen years ago)

if nothing else this installment of the ongoing meltdown has given us "richard mickeybeef"

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:53 (eighteen years ago)

you know me so well. do you treat all the guys like this? ;)

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:53 (eighteen years ago)

alex, why is he so obsessed with your tattoo, btw? this is like the 8th or 9th time he's brought it up out of the blue.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:54 (eighteen years ago)

maybe he's secretly ed

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:55 (eighteen years ago)

that would be HILARIOUS

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:55 (eighteen years ago)

dc is only like 7 hours away. we should hang out guys.

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:57 (eighteen years ago)

no, i'm actually busy that day, i have to go watch marooned again.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:57 (eighteen years ago)

Is there an ILX version of Talk Soup where people can catch up on the latest drama?

― Kerm, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:58 (eighteen years ago)

yes, ethan reposts the highlights on the noize board's dewey cheatem & lol thread and the cut it out thread and occasionally the zing thread.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:58 (eighteen years ago)

we'd invite you over to dc, richard, but you'd probably be alarmed at all the black people

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:59 (eighteen years ago)

Thanks.

― Kerm, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:59 (eighteen years ago)

uh oh. we don't have any of those down these parts.

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 19:59 (eighteen years ago)

where can i see this tattoo mickey keeps referring to? i hear it is awesome

― elmo argonaut, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:01 (eighteen years ago)

that's a lie though because many of them have fucked you over on tips! didn't you start a whole thread to complain about that?

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:01 (eighteen years ago)

i don't recall

― modestmickey, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:01 (eighteen years ago)

and there's like at least one asian girl down there, right? cause you wanted to put your dick in it.

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:01 (eighteen years ago)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/201/450882723_745e155d98_b.jpg

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:02 (eighteen years ago)

MICKEY STARTS THOUSANDS OF THREADS

― horseshoe, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:02 (eighteen years ago)

why is that all bitty? fucking ilx. http://www.flickr.com/photos/allyzay/sets/72157600055951141/

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:02 (eighteen years ago)

sweet! i did see that, i think.

― elmo argonaut, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:03 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/rossalameddine140.jpg

Ross Alameddine
Alameddine, 20, was a sophomore English major from Saugus, Mass. A memorial page on Facebook.com describes him as "an intelligent, funny, easygoing guy." Alameddine was killed in the classroom building, Norris Hall, Robert Palumbo, a family friend, told the Associated Press.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:07 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/jamiebishop140.jpg

Christopher James Bishop
Bishop, 35, was a German instructor teaching in a classroom in Norris Hall before he was killed. He moved from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill to Virginia Tech two years ago when his wife got a job there. Bishop, known as Jamie, grew up in the small town of Pine Mountain, Ga. He attended the University of Georgia and also spent time in Germany as a Fulbright scholar. In addition to languages and teaching, Bishop loved art and technology. His friend, Jacques Morin, said Bishop was passionate about everything.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:08 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/brianbluhm140.jpg

Brian Bluhm
Bluhm, a graduate student, was working toward a master's degree in water resources, according to the Virginia Tech Web site. He had received an undergraduate degree from Virginia Tech in civil engineering. On a memorial page at Facebook.com, Amy Miley of Virginia Tech wrote, "Brian was a very happy individual. You couldn't help but smile when you were around him. Let's all shed our tears and then smile in his memory."

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:08 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/ryanclark140.jpg

Ryan Clark
Clark, 22, was a senior with a triple major in biology, English and psychology. The native of Columbia County, Ga., was known by the nickname "Stack." Clark was one of the first two victims killed at the Virginia Tech campus on Monday. He was a student resident adviser at the West Ambler Johnston dormitory, where he was gunned down. Clark was a just a month away from graduation. He was active in the school's "Marching Virginians" band. He had hoped to pursue a doctorate in psychology.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:09 (eighteen years ago)

STOP CALLING IT TALK SOUP PLEASE IT'S THE SOUP NOW

― admrl, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:09 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/austincloyd_140.jpg

Austin Cloyd
Cloyd was an international studies major from Blacksburg, Va. Cloyd's father teaches accounting at Virginia Tech, her former pastor, the Rev. Terry Harter, told the Associated Press. The family moved to Virginia in 2005 from Champaign, Ill., where they were active members of Harter's church. Harter told the Associated Press that Cloyd was a "very delightful, intelligent, warm young lady." She played basketball and volleyball in high school and went on mission trips to Appalachia, he said.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:09 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/couture-nowak140.jpg

Jocelyne Couture-Nowak
Couture-Nowak was a French instructor at Virginia Tech. Her daughter, Francine Dulong, told The Daily News of Halifax, "My mother was a very big opponent of guns; she really abhorred violence, especially with guns. I definitely could see her fighting to the end." Richard Landry, a spokesman for the francophone school board in Truro, Nova Scotia, told the Associated Press Couture-Nowak was one of three mothers who pushed for funding to begin a French school in the Canadian town, where she lived in the 1990s.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:10 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/kevingranata140.jpg

Kevin Granata
Granata, 45, was a professor of engineering science and mechanics. He had served in the military and later conducted orthopedic research in hospitals before coming to Virginia Tech. He and his students researched muscle and reflex response and robotics. Ishwar Puri, head of the school's engineering science and mechanics department, says Granata was one of the top five biomechanics researchers in the country, and was working on movement dynamics in cerebral palsy.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:11 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/matthewgwaltney140.jpg

Matthew Gwaltney
Gwaltney, 24, of Chester, Va., was a graduate student in civil and environmental engineering. Gwaltney was close to finishing his degree. His high school principal, Robert Stansberry, told the Associated Press that Gwaltney had been named "Best guy to take home to your parents" in high school, where he was also sports editor for the school newspaper.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:11 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/caitlinhammaren140.jpg

Caitlin Hammaren
Hammaren, 19, was a sophomore majoring in international studies and French. She graduated in 2005 from Minisink Valley High School in Slate Hill, N.Y., and was a talented musician, said Dr. Martha Murray, superintendent of Minisink Valley Central Schools. Hammaren played the violin and sang. She also was a strong student and wanted to go into international politics, Murray said. "She actually has been described as someone who was like a magnet for other kids and a role model. Always very positive," Murray said. Students at the high school have talked about Hammaren in their classes, and school officials are trying to do what her father told Murray he wanted them to do: "Celebrate her."

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:12 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/jeremyherbstritt140.jpg

Jeremy Herbstritt
Herbstritt, 27, was a graduate student in civil engineering. Family members said in a statement that he was a good storyteller and a fun-loving person with a great sense of humor. He liked to kayak, run and hike and loved the outdoors. They also described him as "a bright young man, a hard worker and a wonderful son and brother."

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:12 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/rachaelhill140.jpg

Rachael Elizabeth Hill
Hill, 18, a freshman, graduated from Grove Avenue Christian School in Henrico County, Va. Her high school superintendent and pastor, Clay Fogler, said in a statement that "the world has lost one of its brightest prospects." He said she was beautiful, intelligent and a leader, and she had a close relationship with her parents. "One of her beloved scriptures is Song of Solomon, 8:5 — 'Who is this coming up from the wilderness, leaning upon her beloved?'" he said. "Rachael saw herself as the one coming out of the wilderness and needing to lean on her Savior more and more." On a memorial page set up on Facebook.com, Hilary Albert of East Carolina wrote, "God wanted another beautiful and perfect angel up there in Heaven with him."

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:13 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/emilyhilscher140.jpg

Emily Hilscher
Hilscher, 19, was a freshman majoring in animal and poultry sciences. A native of Woodville, Va., Hilscher was a 2006 graduate of Rappahannock County High School. She was known around her hometown as an animal lover, and had worked at a veterinarian's office there. On a memorial page on Facebook.com, Lauren Kintner of Virginia Tech recalled, "Emily was amazing. She was so filled with life and always had something wonderful to say or was always making me smile." Hilscher was one of two people shot at the West Ambler Johnston dorm; the other was Ryan Clark.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/jarrettlane140.jpg

Jarrett Lane
Lane, 22, was a senior studying civil engineering. He had been valedictorian of his high school class in Narrows, Va. According to Lane's friend, Justin Waldron, the school put up a memorial to Lane that included pictures, musical instruments and his athletic jerseys. Lane played the trombone, ran track, and played football and basketball. Waldron said in a Facebook entry that Lane was "loved by all and hated by none."

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/mattlaporte140.jpg

Matthew La Porte
La Porte, 20, was a sophomore from Dumont, N.J., majoring in university studies. He was a 2005 graduate of Carson Long Military Institute, a private boys' school in New Bloomfield, Pa., that offers military training, according to its alumni association's Web site. During a graduation speech, he said that the school had changed his life, according to the Associated Press. "I know that Carson Long was my second chance," he said. He was attending Virginia Tech on an Air Force ROTC scholarship and also was a member of the Corps of Cadets.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:15 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/henrylee140.jpg

Henry Lee
Lee, 20, was a freshman majoring in computer engineering. He attended William Fleming High School in Roanoke, Va. His principal, Susan Willis, said Lee came to the United States from China in elementary school and didn't speak English. He changed his name from "Henh" to "Henry" when he became a U.S. citizen last year. Lee, who was the salutatorian of his class, was reluctant to speak at his graduation in June because he was nervous about talking in front of thousands of people. But he was eventually talked into giving what Willis said was a rousing speech about the hard work it took to graduate second in his class after coming to the United States. Teachers at the school who saw Lee over Christmas break said he was smiling and upbeat about his future at Virginia Tech.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:15 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/librescu140.jpg

Liviu Librescu
Librescu, 76, was an engineering science and mathematics lecturer. He was among the victims at Norris Hall. Students say Librescu tried to keep the gunman from entering the room so that others could jump out of the windows to save themselves.

Born and educated in Romania, Librescu was internationally known for his research in aeronautical engineering. He was a Holocaust survivor; Monday was Holocaust Remembrance Day. Engineering department head Ishwar Puri said Librescu, who was born in a communist country, had a "great thirst for freedom."

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:16 (eighteen years ago)

thank you edward

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:16 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/loganathan140.jpg

G. V. Loganathan
Loganathan, 51, was a professor of civil and environmental engineering. He was born in southern India and had been a professor at Virginia Tech since 1982. He taught courses in hydraulics, hydrology and water resources engineering and was a core adviser for undergraduates in the department. His students described him as one of their favorites, and he received several awards for excellence in teaching. On a Virginia Tech Web site, one colleague, Dr. William Knocke, described Loganathan as "truly one of the most outstanding classroom educators within the College of Engineering."

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:17 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/lumbantoruan140.jpg

Partahi Lumbantoruan
Lumbantoruan, 34, was a civil engineering doctoral student from Indonesia. His family told the Associated Press he wanted to become a teacher in the United States and they sold property and cars to pay his tuition. "We tried everything to completely finance his studies in the United States," said his father, Tohom Lumbantoruan. "We only wanted him to succeed in his studies, but ... he met a tragic fate." Lombantoruan's aunt, Christina Panjaitan, described her nephew as hardworking and intelligent.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:17 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/laurenmccaine140.jpg

Lauren McCain
McCain, 20, of Hampton, Va., was an international studies major. On her MySpace.com page, she said Jesus Christ was the love of her life. Leonard Riley, a former pastor at her church, Restoration Church-Phoebus Baptist, told The Virginian-Pilot he has known the family for about 10 years. "You meet a lot of young people in your life, but not a lot will make the impression that Lauren did," he said. "To know her was to love her. She was always ready and willing to do for someone else."

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:18 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/danieloneil140.jpg

Daniel O'Neil
O'Neil, 22, was an engineering graduate student from Lincoln, R.I. His friend Steve Craveiro told the Associated Press that O'Neil was a hard worker and someone who never got into trouble. "He loved his family. He was pretty much destined to be extremely successful. He just didn't deserve to have happen what happened," Craveiro said. O'Neil also played guitar and wrote songs that he recorded and posted on his Web site.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:18 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/juanramonortiz140.jpg

AP Photo
Juan Ortiz
Ortiz, 26, a graduate student studying civil engineering, was from Puerto Rico. "He was an extraordinary son, what any father would have wanted," Ortiz's father, also named Juan Ramon Ortiz, told the Associated Press. Neighbors of the family in Bayamon, a San Juan suburb, told the Associated Press that Ortiz was a quiet and dedicated son who played in a salsa band with his father.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:19 (eighteen years ago)

seconded

― deeznuts, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:19 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/minalpanchal140.jpg

Minal Panchal
Panchal, 26, was a graduate student from India who wanted to become an architect. Her friend, Chetna Parekh, who lives in Borivali, India, told the Associated Press that Panchal was thrilled when she was admitted to Virginia Tech last year. "She was a brilliant student and very hardworking. She was focused on getting her degree and doing well," Parekh said.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:20 (eighteen years ago)

thank you edward

-- ghost rider, Thursday, April 19, 2007 3:16 PM (19 seconds ago)

― deej, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:20 (eighteen years ago)

thanks

― jessie monster, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:20 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/danielperez140.jpg

Daniel Perez Cueva
Perez Cueva, 21, a native of Peru, was majoring in international relations. Friend Hugo Quintero described him as "very responsible with schoolwork, very mature" but with a humorous side. The friends, who met in the lunch line in high school in Woodbridge, Va., liked to joke around. Quintero said Perez Cueva had been excited about applying for internships with the French and Italian embassies in Washington.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:20 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/erinpeterson140.jpg

Erin Nichole Peterson
Peterson was a freshman majoring in international studies. She had been a basketball standout at Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., and was inducted into the National Honor Society as a high school senior in 2005. Peterson's high school basketball coach, Pat Deegan, said she was a good student and excellent athlete, who "made it her business to make everyone around her a better person." He said members of the basketball team shared anecdotes about how Peterson reached out when they were new to the school or nervous about playing their first varsity game. Peterson played on the varsity team for three years and was captain her senior year. Seung-hui Cho, identified as the gunman by police, attended the same high school.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:21 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/mikepohle140.jpg

Michael Pohle Jr.
Pohle, 23, of Flemington, N.J., was a biology major close to graduating from Virginia Tech. Pohle had played football and lacrosse while attending Hunterdon Central Regional High School. "He was a great, all-around kid, and it's just tragic that his life was cut so short in such a senseless act of violence," his high school vice principal, Craig Blanton, told The Star-Ledger of Newark.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:22 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/juliapryde140.jpg

Julia Pryde
Pryde, 23, was a graduate student from Middletown, N.J. She had been in G.V. Loganathan's advanced hydrology class when she was killed, her adviser, Mary Leigh Wolfe, told the Asbury Park Press. Wolfe, a professor of biological systems at Virginia Tech, said Pryde graduated with a bachelor's degree in biological systems engineering last spring. "She always tried to make a difference herself, rather than try to ask someone else to do something," Wolfe told the newspaper. Wolfe had traveled with Pryde to Ecuador last year to study water systems there.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:22 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/maryread140.jpg

Mary Karen Read
Read, 19, was a freshman from Annandale, Va. She hadn't yet picked a major at Virginia Tech. "I think she wanted to try to spread her wings," her aunt, Karen Kuppinger, told the Associated Press. Read, who was part of an Air Force family, was born in South Korea and had also lived in Texas and California.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:23 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/samahafromposbic140.jpg

Reema Samaha
Samaha, 18, was a freshman from a close-knit Centreville, Va., family of Lebanese descent. She loved acting, dance and drama and was studying French, said Luann McNabb, a family friend. Samaha was close to her older brother and sister, and her family traveled to Beirut to visit her mother's family almost every summer. Samaha had attended Westfield High School, where she won a talent show last year with a belly dance, McNabb said.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:24 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/waleedmohamedshaalan140.jpg

Waleed Mohamed Shaalan
Shaalan, originally from Egypt, was a doctoral student in civil engineering. He began attending Virginia Tech in the fall of 2006. According to the Muslim Students Association at Virginia Tech, he had been married for three years and had a 1-year-old son. His roommate, Fahad Pasha, said on the association's Web site that Shaalan was planning to bring his family to Virginia soon. "He was the simplest and nicest guy I ever knew. We would be studying for our exams and he would go buy a cake and make tea for us," Pasha said.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/lesliesherman140.jpg

Leslie Sherman
Sherman was a sophomore majoring in history and international relations. She graduated in 2005 from West Springfield High School in Springfield, Va. Her friend Buddy Miller, also a sophomore at Virginia Tech, said Sherman wanted to join the Peace Corps after college. Sherman loved the Russian language and Russian history, Miller said. He described her as someone who was always happy and optimistic.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

http://media.npr.org/news/images/2007/apr/17/vashooting/victim_photos/maxineturner140.jpg

Maxine Turner
Turner, a senior from Vienna, Va., was majoring in chemical engineering. She was also a mentor to fellow chemical engineering student Beth Fairchild. They were both members of an engineering sorority, Alpha Omega Epsilon, and shared a love of Tae Kwon Do. Fairchild writes this about her sorority "big sister:" "Max was, if anything, a great friend. She'd always be there for you, through the good times and bad, and was only a call away. She was very peace-loving and friendly, which only accentuates the horrible tragedy that befell her." Turner died in a German-language class taught by Christopher James Bishop.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:26 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.roanoke.com/news/images/nicolewhite.jpg

Nicole White
White, 20, was a junior majoring in international studies. Chance Hellmann, who graduated with White from Smithfield High School in Virginia and attends Virginia Tech, told the Daily Press of Hampton Roads that White worked cleaning stables and caring for horses at a barn in high school. She was known for loving animals and worked summers as a lifeguard.

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:27 (eighteen years ago)

RIP

― Edward III, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

christ

― ghost rider, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:28 (eighteen years ago)

were any of the people being taken out of the building in the photos at the top of the thread ever identified?

― félix pié, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:30 (eighteen years ago)

One of them was wounded (shot three times) and survived. His family was interviewed on the TV news last night.

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2007 20:37 (eighteen years ago)

rip

― estela, Thursday, 19 April 2007 21:20 (eighteen years ago)

Isn't it strange and shocking how 30 can suddenly be a lot of people, if you list them like that?

― StanM, Thursday, 19 April 2007 21:58 (eighteen years ago)

oh christ, Edward. Thanks, but I can't read that right now

― river wolf, Thursday, 19 April 2007 21:59 (eighteen years ago)

has anyone found the killer's blog yet?

― ken c, Thursday, 19 April 2007 21:59 (eighteen years ago)

This is so weird, seeing all these fucking lives cut short like this. How do you write about someone's life, everything they've ever done and said and thought and loved, etc.? These kids are my age. I can't fathom what my entry would say.

― Curt1s Stephens, Thursday, 19 April 2007 23:15 (eighteen years ago)

are you studying at the moment? (if so what do you study?)

― ken c, Thursday, 19 April 2007 23:44 (eighteen years ago)

i remember seeing something on the news about a blog entry that was possibly made by the killer the morning of the shootings, but then I couldn't find anything about it on google news later.

― Alex in Baltimore, Friday, 20 April 2007 00:13 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.dmiblog.net/archives/2007/04/david_brooks_people_arent_blam.html
david brooks: moron by nature or nurture?

― deej, Friday, 20 April 2007 00:26 (eighteen years ago)

The bible-thumpy dipshits come out to play:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266860,00.html

“I’m not denying that Satan himself could have been in this act. I’m just saying if he was, I’m not giving him credit for it.”

THAT'LL SHOW HIM!

― Oilyrags, Friday, 20 April 2007 00:44 (eighteen years ago)

"it is so clearly, evidently, blatantly wrong to murder 32 innocent people -- that it almost goes without saying."

i think dana petrino didnt get that memo

― deeznuts, Friday, 20 April 2007 00:44 (eighteen years ago)

xposts

Thanks for these, Edward.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 20 April 2007 00:57 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, moving to read those. Thanks.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 02:02 (eighteen years ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting_weapons

But I may have to backpedal a bit on the preventability of the incident. It looks like there was actually an almost adequate measure in place that should have prevented Cho from obtaining guns but didn't because of (if i understand correctly) a technical difference between federal and Virginia law.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 02:03 (eighteen years ago)

Gesture of support from my U, however cheesy:

http://profile.ak.facebook.com/object/662/116/n2372120099_34069.jpg

― dan m, Friday, 20 April 2007 06:01 (eighteen years ago)

Dan are you actually up in Houghton? Or are you just alumni?

― kingfish, Friday, 20 April 2007 06:04 (eighteen years ago)

http://aycu32.webshots.com/image/13151/2000940349195579662_rs.jpg

― Kerm, Friday, 20 April 2007 06:52 (eighteen years ago)

Just an alum, but I am also from up there. The whole thing really hits home, small town + tech school and all...

― dan m, Friday, 20 April 2007 06:55 (eighteen years ago)

Librescu, 76, was an engineering science and mathematics lecturer. He was among the victims at Norris Hall. Students say Librescu tried to keep the gunman from entering the room so that others could jump out of the windows to save themselves.

I know it was said before, but this is just... What a hero. :-((((

― nathalie, Friday, 20 April 2007 07:07 (eighteen years ago)

76?

Don't people retire at 65 in the US?

― StanM, Friday, 20 April 2007 07:11 (eighteen years ago)

50% of them are shot, the other half can work

― gershy, Friday, 20 April 2007 07:14 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/18/AR2007041802824_pf.html

― Kerm, Friday, 20 April 2007 07:16 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18173672/?duck=true

― StanM, Friday, 20 April 2007 08:58 (eighteen years ago)

About those videos: what's up with the way he talks and reads? It's so... don't know, robot-like, I don't know what to compare it to, I don't think I've ever seen someone talk like that. Medicine?

― StanM, Friday, 20 April 2007 11:38 (eighteen years ago)

Good for the families for pulling out of the NBC interviews.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 11:42 (eighteen years ago)

You know, I sort of do blame videogames.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 11:46 (eighteen years ago)

NBC's defense was along the lines of "it provides an important look into the mind of a killer." Yeah. Important.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:00 (eighteen years ago)

About those videos: what's up with the way he talks and reads? It's so... don't know, robot-like, I don't know what to compare it to, I don't think I've ever seen someone talk like that. Medicine?

If you ever come across someone who talks like that, I'd suggest calling an ambulance with a truckload of tranquilizers.

― nathalie, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:01 (eighteen years ago)

BTW not to harp on this, but this kid really should have been prevented from getting guns. A judge had ruled that he was dangerous - the only reason this didn't affect his background check was that the judge didn't actually commit him but instead ordered outpatient treatment - VA law apparently doesn't require this to be a factor in gun purchase even though federal does, if I understand right. But that means VA law is fucked!

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:04 (eighteen years ago)

That Washington Post article is amazing. I can't help but think - and I know it's not a very original thought - that this kind of report could be filed every day from Iraq, and isn't.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:07 (eighteen years ago)

Re: videos

Actually, I think I've changed my mind a bit and perhaps it IS a good idea to show the videos to the general public, it could be important to show everyone the difference between a psychopath and a normal difficult loner weirdo moody suicidepoetry writing teen.

― StanM, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:09 (eighteen years ago)

Of course they only ran them because of sensationalism and ratings and stuff, but I wouldn't want to be a, say, regular goth type kid right now if the reports had just stopped at "kept to himself and wrote about death"

― StanM, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:13 (eighteen years ago)

If the video did make him out to be a normal goth kid who kept to himself and wrote about death, should NBC not have run it?

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:16 (eighteen years ago)

The particular nature of the video is exactly why I'm so bothered that they're running it. In a direct sense, it's horrifying to make families of victims see images of the killer rationalizing and preparing for the killing of their own kin, and in a more indirect sense it's sensationalizing the killer.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:23 (eighteen years ago)

"Running a video" does not equal "make grieving families see it".

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:27 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, but the coverage was so obviously played for cheap entertainment/thrill value

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:35 (eighteen years ago)

They can choose not to view it. I mean, it's not really up to the family to choose whether this airs or not.

It is of course about ratings, Stan, what else?

I dunno, I still found it harrowing (the video itself and the fact they showed it) but I can understand it. They'd be fools not to.

― nathalie, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:39 (eighteen years ago)

Well I know I'm a couple of decades late on this, but it still makes me sad that we take for granted that the news should do what ever it can for ratings rather than see itself as having some kind of public duty. There was a time when the airwaves were considered a public trust.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:46 (eighteen years ago)

What if there was a guy who had just raped and murdered a bunch of women? Would it be ok for the news to show a video of the rapist/murderer bragging in detail about how he was going to rape and murder his victims and showing off his muscles?

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:49 (eighteen years ago)

Ok, then I must have missed how he explicitly told the camera (and viewer) how he was going to kill so many people. I didn't see that. Yes, I saw the ones in which he said that society was to blame. Personally I didn't like it, but it's a fact that these television channels are commercial channels and as such need to keep their ratings high. *shrug* I don't know, it's just all very sad.

― nathalie, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:53 (eighteen years ago)

To me, the reason not to run the video is that it completes this guy's fantasy. He had an idea of how the entire episode would play out and it went exactly according to his plan and the news media helped him get there. In his fantasy he was on the cover of every newspaper pointing guns at the world and that is exactly what we gave him. And for disturbed and angry people who retreat into their own heads like this, who want nothing more than to "show the world," I imagine the kind of recognition promised by the media would be very appealing. There are probably a couple dozen miserable people out there who look at this guy's deeds as heroic (same way he did with Columbine) and now that they know that a "multimedia manifesto" will certainly be seen by the world, it probably makes a shooting spree that much more appealing.

― Mark Rich@rdson, Friday, 20 April 2007 12:58 (eighteen years ago)

If the video did make him out to be a normal goth kid who kept to himself and wrote about death, should NBC not have run it?

-- Tracer Hand, Friday, April 20, 2007 2:16 PM (42 minutes ago)

I don't know, I think I R Pwnd by U :-(

― StanM, Friday, 20 April 2007 13:00 (eighteen years ago)

Ok, then I must have missed how he explicitly told the camera (and viewer) how he was going to kill so many people

Ok, fair enough, I guess there's a difference. Still bothers me though.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 13:30 (eighteen years ago)

Perhaps most annoying meme to come out of this whole thing: "If this happened two weeks ago, Imus would still be on the air!"

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 13:42 (eighteen years ago)

One of the British tabloids today has huge headline "I heard Cho shoot himself". But I read it as "I heard Cho shot himself". Surreal moment.

― Not the real Village People, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:31 (eighteen years ago)

haha

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:38 (eighteen years ago)

STUDENT: YO, I HEARD CHO SHOT HIMSELF

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:38 (eighteen years ago)

http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/561/561380/shadow-ops-red-mercury-20041028003252925-000.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.americaninventorspot.com/files/images/First%20Person%20Shooter.preview.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

http://t3dgm.thegamecreators.com/data/showcase/3ee07f78666fa9.40590015_f.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

Surprised nobody in the thread has mentioned the UK papers (is this in the US media as well?) obsession with the fact that some of the photos from Cho's NBC package resemble stills from the film "Old Boy." I haven't read that Cho actually mentions the movie in his diatribes (they erroneously called a 'horror film' in all the articles, some of the headlines just say "Killer Mimicked Horror Flick," etc. Did I miss something on this?

― Ben Boyerrr, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.flytip.com/blogs/gaming/images/shockwave3D.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:51 (eighteen years ago)

http://techgurls.blorc.com/wp-content/phosphor.png

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:52 (eighteen years ago)

Ben it has been mentioned - possibly on another thread.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:53 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.safedownloads.net/ww2_b.jpg

http://www.planetphillip.com/siteimages/mods/half-life-1/med-affliction-01.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:54 (eighteen years ago)

(sorry, I'm an idiot - putting spaces in title and all)

― Ben Boyerrr, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:54 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.counterfrag.com/screenshots/fear%20game/1.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/5462/2h/images.gamezone.com/screens/25/0/13/s25013_pc_12.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.eyebeam.org/reblog/archives/fsp6-400.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.counterfrag.com/screenshots/americas%20army/003.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.gamersblogs.com/images/galleryimages/40/1166546055_mid.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:56 (eighteen years ago)

Airing the video enlightens no one about anything, but any idea that that's a tenet of journalism is in the antique shop.

― Dr Morbius, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

http://tmpspace.com/content/wp-content/images/adamkiller1.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:58 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.cnet.com.au/i/r/2005/games/ps2/22051320/sc001.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:58 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/items/free_games/Images/cube.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.fabricoffolly.co.uk/images/games/goldeneye.gif

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:00 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.cnet.com.au/i/r/2006/Games/xbox/22056082/sc001.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:00 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.skirmisher.com/colum-1.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:01 (eighteen years ago)

http://images.macologist.org/review_images/xiii/1.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:03 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.armchairempire.com/images/Reviews/pc/ghost-recon-advanced-warfighter/ghost-recon-advanced-warfighter-3.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:04 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.nintendowiifanboy.com/media/2006/06/redsteelpic1.jpg

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

it's like, you can travel this great world over but you're still you, that guy with a hand, and a gun in that hand

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

― the next grozart, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:06 (eighteen years ago)

"In a first-person shooter, there are actually three analog control movements that must be accounted for: movement, looking, and aiming. A human can do all three at the same time quite naturally, but attempting to implement this in a game is almost impossible. So, since the dawn of the FPS, looking and aiming have been fused into one. There is a static, unmoving reticule on the center of the screen, and where you look, you aim. Automatic." - http://www.nintendowiifanboy.com/2006/06/23/the-fps-conundrum/

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:08 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.datenform.de/fpseng.html

http://www.datenform.de/fps3.jpg

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:16 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.datenform.de/fpsme400.jpg

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:17 (eighteen years ago)

You know, I sort of do blame videogames.

-- Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 11:46 (3 hours ago)

why? do you think if there were no first-person shooter video games mass murderers wouldn't exist? spree shootings have been happening since the 40s. it's a personality type, and the patterns are nearly identical. take a look at the cases of howard unruh and charles whitman. bullied, emotionally dead, feeling like emasculated failures, trying to reclaim some sort of control over their lives via shooting sprees. psychologically they appear no different than cho, or klebold and harris, or george hennard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Unruh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hennard

sometimes the personality types are drawn to violent video games and films, but they're also drawn to the military (and apparently to collective soul). but that's a byproduct of their dysfunction, not necessarily the cause of it.

can we please stop blaming things that thousands and thousands of people are exposed to for the actions of a well-defined class of aberrant individuals? it's as useful as saying fire causes pyromaniacs.

― Edward III, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:19 (eighteen years ago)

Surprised nobody in the thread has mentioned the UK papers (is this in the US media as well?) obsession with the fact that some of the photos from Cho's NBC package resemble stills from the film "Old Boy."

I don't blame anybody for not ingesting this monstrosity of a thread, but we were only discussing this here YESTERDAY MORNING.

― Edward III, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

Edward, I used to think the same but there's a pretty interesting article in New Scientist this week that made me reconsider (a bit).

― Not the real Village People, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

Not that I think it's solely to blame or anything, just that it can and does influence behaviour, to some extent.

― Not the real Village People, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)

do you think if there were no first-person shooter video games mass murderers wouldn't exist?

No, I don't think that.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:32 (eighteen years ago)

one could make the argument that there are no popular FPS games (that I know of) wherein you use dual handguns to take on a bunch of fish in a barrel.

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)

I think the media's continual reinforcement of the workplace/school spree-killing suicide meme has a lot more to do with it than games in which you actually FIGHT other COMBATANTS

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)

No, no, I think we should use statistical outliers to condemn entire forms of pop culture, since my enjoyment of sniping virtual Schutzstaffel officers with a virtual scoped Lee-Enfield is obviously contributing to society's downfall.

xp

― kingfish, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

I don't remember mcveigh, kaczynski or the 9/11 assholes getting nearly the same degree of television face time or psychological deconstruction and "expert" chatter as harris, klebold or this dickhead

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

You know, I sort of do blame videogames. 

Do you blame a gun for a murder? No, you blame the person commiting the crime.

Do you applaud the pot for a great meal? No, you congratulate the cook.

Do you award an Oscar to the camera? No, to the director. (Well, y'know what I mean...)

You blame a videogame? Why haven't billions of other young people commited crimes because of games? Because they do not have the same personality. You actually tell this guy he is right: blame it on everything else, except himself. He's culpable. Noone else.

― stevienixed, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:41 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, I agree with Tom. There's a weird bit of packaged narrative around all this, that "This is the proper way of how you go crazy, and what crazy people do"

― kingfish, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:43 (eighteen years ago)

Putting the VT shootings aside for a moment, I have for years been kind of disturbed and skeeved out and downright stumped by the immense, unstoppable popularity of first-person shooters. They are all essentially the same - your own body is always hidden; you're a disembodied set of eyes with a burly, manly forearm and a set of guns, traversing 3-D environments and shooting virtually anything that moves. Later iterations added multiplayer. There are hundreds of variations on this very basic theme. From the very start - Doom - I never really enjoyed them. (When Tomb Raider came along, though I ate it up - I could SEE myself! - and I was relieved of the burden of aiming - the aim/look fusion had been snapped. But TR was the exception.)

Their popularity is just astonishing to me. Even fighting games like Tekken have lower sales than FPSs. There is just something compulsively playable about them, apparently, no matter how similar they all are. It doesn't seem entirely unconnected to me that a genre of videogame based upon an atomized, usually partnerless individual who runs around with guns and blows entire rooms full of people away is incredibly popular and played every night by millions of people - 99.9% of whom never actually shoot anyone in real life - that this genre exists in a world where sometimes, in some places, an actual player of these games who is already marginalized and alone will decide to, you know, run around with guns and blow entire rooms full of people away.

Way up the thread vahid wondered how people would feel if videogames that depend on the player murdering people were controlled tightly, like pornography is. I don't think it's a terrible idea.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:47 (eighteen years ago)

the media's continual reinforcement of the workplace/school spree-killing suicide meme

Agreed, and fuck NBC in the Neilsen-hole for broadcasting that shit manifesto.

― elmo argonaut, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

Clue's in the link

http://skirmisher.org/films/breaking-if-cho-seung-huis-uncanny-resemblance-to-napoleon-dynamite-wouldnt-floor-you-nothing-will/

― Nicholas Passant, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:49 (eighteen years ago)

The popularity of FPS is attributable to plenty of things, immersion being one of them. Aliens vs Predator (1 or 2) is a far better game than the Aliens side shooter put out 8 years previous, for example. You're actually in the role of the space marine, seeing the world and getting eaten from the space marine's perspective.

But remember, like with cinematic violence, there's a great deal of variety within the genre and a context to it. Excreable shit like Postal 2 (which brings far, FAR more of a graphic sadistic/cruel vibe to the proceedings) is far different than stuff like AvP2, or the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight(run around as jedi and lop off heads!) or the Call of Duty series.

Or even in Doom when you're blasting away at huge floating demons.

― kingfish, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:55 (eighteen years ago)

Putting the VT shootings aside for a moment, I have for years been kind of disturbed and skeeved out and downright stumped by the immense, unstoppable popularity of first-person shooters. They are all essentially the same - your own body is always hidden; you're a disembodied set of eyes with a burly, manly forearm and a set of guns, traversing 3-D environments and shooting virtually anything that moves. Later iterations added multiplayer. There are hundreds of variations on this very basic theme. From the very start - Doom - I never really enjoyed them. (When Tomb Raider came along, though I ate it up - I could SEE myself! - and I was relieved of the burden of aiming - the aim/look fusion had been snapped. But TR was the exception.)

Their popularity is just astonishing to me. Even fighting games like Tekken have lower sales than FPSs. There is just something compulsively playable about them, apparently, no matter how similar they all are. It doesn't seem entirely unconnected to me that a genre of videogame based upon an atomized, usually partnerless individual who runs around with guns and blows entire rooms full of people away is incredibly popular and played every night by millions of people - 99.9% of whom never actually shoot anyone in real life - that this genre exists in a world where sometimes, in some places, an actual player of these games who is already marginalized and alone will decide to, you know, run around with guns and blow entire rooms full of people away.

1000000% OTM. These are boring, lifeless and confusing games and are enough to drive anyone psycho by their inanity.

― the next grozart, Friday, 20 April 2007 15:59 (eighteen years ago)

can we please stop blaming things that thousands and thousands of people are exposed to for the actions of a well-defined class of aberrant individuals? it's as useful as saying fire causes pyromaniacs.

Isn't this pretty much the same argument the gun lobby uses?

― underpants of the gods, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:00 (eighteen years ago)

BTW I remember reading that there's some evidence to suggest that the effect of movie/video game violence can be more detrimental based on the lack of morality in the targeting - i.e. if you're blasting away at demons you're working within an imaginary universe where you're only killing evil, clearly inhuman creatures. Whereas games that actually reward or don't punish the taking of innocent life could have more of an effect.

I don't think you can "blame video games." But I think it's reasonable to question whether it's psychologically healthy for a child to spend hours a day for days on end playing games like that, and whether it might not make a child at least more indifferent to violence.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:04 (eighteen years ago)

Isn't this pretty much the same argument the gun lobby uses?

-- underpants of the gods, Friday, April 20, 2007 11:00 AM (7 minutes ago)

not really, because the guns are the tools that actually do the killing

― deej, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:08 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah one reason I really warmed to Tomb Raider much more than other "shooters" was that in the first one at least you are always shooting NON-human targets (bats, wolves etc.)

Hurting I think there's a pretty easy answer to that question - no, it's not psychologically healthy. I mean it's not psychologically healthy to play Katamari Damacy for hours a day, days on end either but the worst effects of that are going to be pasty skin, twitchy fingers, dry mouth, and hallucinations of giant balls rolling over every object in your neighborhood.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:12 (eighteen years ago)

And I think Tombot has a point that our culture has a fascination/obsession with shooting rampages and that they become the "medium" of choice for psychotic revenge outbursts. Even as far back as Badlands there was already not only a fascination with such rampages, but film commentary on the fascination (the end sequence).

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

When Tomb Raider came along, though I ate it up - I could SEE myself! - and I was relieved of the burden of aiming - the aim/look fusion had been snapped. But TR was the exception.)

Tomb Raider is a really bad boring shit game!! Did you even play FPS games not on a console?

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

"I think it's reasonable to question whether it's psychologically healthy for a child to spend hours a day for days on end playing games like that"

Definitely. That's why parents shouldn't let their children play violent, morally-ambiguous video games.

― Kerm, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

jon have you beaten twilight princess yet

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:17 (eighteen years ago)

not really, because the guns are the tools that actually do the killing

Except that the gun lobby's line is that people kill, not guns. That millions of people use guns responsibly, and only a small class of aberrant individuals use them to go on mass murder shooting sprees. If there's evidence that shooter games can trigger something in a certain category of maladjusted, predisposed people (admittedly a big 'if'), then there's a parallel.

― underpants of the gods, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:17 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah one reason I really warmed to Tomb Raider much more than other "shooters" was that in the first one at least you are always shooting NON-human targets (bats, wolves etc.)

I think any sane person doesn't really equate videogames with real life shootings. I don't see the *transference* element really. Maybe I'm overly defensive when it comes to videogames. (which is kinda funny since I am extremely disinterested in the games themselves.)

Playing sth for hours is never healthy. But I don't think (violent) videogames are that bad: they are (normally) a means to release stress and aggression.

― stevienixed, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:18 (eighteen years ago)

There's evidence that video games actually increase stress rather than release it because there's no physical component and because of all the sitting and micro finger twitching.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:20 (eighteen years ago)

Have not played Twilight Princess very much!

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

then shut up

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

jfk

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

[i]I think any sane person doesn't really equate videogames with real life shootings.[/]

I guess the point is not what videogames do to sane people, but what they might do to insane people.

― underpants of the gods, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)

Well, then you might as well delete the entire world.

― stevienixed, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:25 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, Catssssup, I couldn't stand it. I felt like such a douche, clanking around through dank basements filled with baddies, changing clips with my QWERTY keyboard and Dell mouse, sitting in an adjustable office chair, hunched forward into the screen. Christ. And uhhh whatever about Tomb Raider. I know people who had never played another computer game in their lives, staying up til 3am playing that thing. Also you can mimick Lara Croft's moves with your friends and create new dances. Try doing that with Goldeneye!

stevie I'm pretty sure we're all sane here and no one is "equating" videogame mass murder (incredibly common - hundreds of thousands of them per day) with real-life murder (a lot rarer). Nor is anyone saying that one causes the other. I'm saying that the VT killings and the extraordinary popularity of FPSs -- and the NRA -- are products of the same fascination with guns as a means of personal power and control.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:27 (eighteen years ago)

Well, then you might as well delete the entire world.

seriously. Son of Sam and all that. Trigger mechanisms for massively dysfunctional people aren't necessarily related in subject matter.

― kingfish, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:30 (eighteen years ago)

One thing that's much clearer is that this kid should not have been able to buy a gun after that judge's ruling. If there's anywhere to place blame, it's on that legal loophole.

― Hurting 2, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

Well, then you might as well delete the entire world.

Doesn't follow. We have (in Europe) gun control laws so that guns are less likely to fall into the hands of criminals and psychopaths. I can't see why it's inconceivable to exercise some censorship on the most violent of shooter games, on the grounds that they raise levels of stress and aggression in a way that could be dangerous in the hands of potentially violent and mentally unstable people. (Subject to clear evidence that they could be triggers.)

― underpants of the gods, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

they already have ratings

― Mr. Que, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_guignol

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:35 (eighteen years ago)

here's the new scientist article mentioned upthread. (haven't read it yet)

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

oh duh

http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/mg19426001.900

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

oh and had i scrolled down, i'd have seen it's reg only. i'm on a roll, everybody

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

Ratings mean jack shit! Put them right next to all the porn videos behind a beaded curtain in the back part of the store, behind where the cash register is and make sure there's a lingering, stale cigarette smell back there.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:40 (eighteen years ago)

that's gonna make it difficult for best buy to keep sellin' 'em.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 20 April 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

i mean, i recall it being against the rules for the customers to go back into the employee lounge, for starters.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 20 April 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

yeah i don't know how you would ever censor video games in this country

― Mr. Que, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

i wasn't even allowed cable television as a teenager, let alone a nintendo.

― moonship journey to baja, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

yeah i don't know how you would ever censor video games in this country

-- Mr. Que, Friday, April 20, 2007 9:42 AM (2 minutes ago)

produce studies showing that they cause brain damage

― moonship journey to baja, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

yeah good luck with that scientist man!

― Mr. Que, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

but yeah i wasn't allowed to watch tv and had no video games as a teenager, so there you go.

― Mr. Que, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

one method would be to make stores actually enforce the whole ratings system on the games and ID people but that gets to be very complicated. it's easier to do that with cigarettes and alcohol since you generally have to go to very specific stores to purchase those things (plus i would imagine the number of people who look underage going in to purchase those items is much lower than the number doing so with video games and movies).

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 20 April 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

i mean, yeah, with the way they are currently sold, tracer is right, the ratings might as well just be pictures of various pokemon because it's not like anyone is going to stop and 11 year old from picking up an AO or MA game and purchasing it (except, hopefully, the kid's parents but i have no faith in the world).

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 20 April 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

i've said this on threads about this kind of thing before, but when it comes to either violent or sexual media (or media that is both), the real effects are extremely hard to track. there is no definitive answer, right now, as to what this stuff does to people. so the assumption is "well, this shit is pretty raw, and it MUST have some effect, and there's no way the effect is GOOD."

i can't support policing solutions (locking up more and more media behind an adults-only curtain or whatever) based on so many maybes. in an open culture under a 1st-amendment umbrella, i think the bar has to be set pretty high proving what nasty media does to people, in specific, before taking legal steps to alter its consumption.

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

it is ridiculous to structure our lives around what affects the mentally ill. this is the same mentality that wants to ban albums by slayer, and films like taxi driver and a clockwork orange.

Censors tend to do what only psychotics do: they confuse reality with illusion.

-David Cronenberg

― Edward III, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:50 (eighteen years ago)

i don't think anyone here is suggesting anything be banned at all. except for guns lol

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 20 April 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

GameStop/EBGames now have policies in place whereby the MANAGER of any store that sells a T or M game to a kid who's not old enough gets his pink slip, plus the offending underling(s) obv

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

that's a little draconian, don't you think?? i mean T? and the manager? how would he know?

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 20 April 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

so the biggest and most powerful bricks-and-mortar retailer in the industry is taking some kind of stance

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

re: science of videogames, they produced a bunch of studies showing that having toys in the crib for infants led to faster brain development, and now it is practically *unheard of* to not give infants toys. ditto preschoolers and picture books!

i don't think it'd be too hard to show that at the *very least* exposing pre-adolescents to videogames can contribute to aspergers, if not totally undo whatever we try to teach kids in preschool.

(this line of argument doesn't really belong on a gun control thread)

― moonship journey to baja, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

oh it's definitely draconian. lawyers and C-level execs be NOT INTERESTED in having their industry become federally regulated

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

xpost huh that's interesting re: aspergers

it is ridiculous to structure our lives around what affects the mentally ill

is it ridiculous to structure our lives around what affects children? i honestly don't know. they are kind of "mentally ill" in a legal and moral sense.

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:54 (eighteen years ago)

i think it is disingenuous at best to claim such things only affect the mentally ill, regardless of definitions here. affecting a person's mentality =/ causing a person to go out and actually do something insane.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 20 April 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

i don't think it'd be too hard to show that at the *very least* exposing pre-adolescents to videogames can contribute to aspergers, if not totally undo whatever we try to teach kids in preschool.

change the word "aspergers" in this sentence to "depression." Would you still think the same thing?

― Mr. Que, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

Ed, I hadn't seen that Cronenberg quote before, but it's a good one; there's definitely some type of teleology prevalent with censors that ellides sensory experience, physical response, cognition, and violent action into a long causal sequence with no possibility of interpretive distance. Welcome to Land of Dworkin.

― elmo argonaut, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

xpost yes!!

― moonship journey to baja, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

These games are the most realistic killing simulations ever created, with YOU as the killer! How much higher does the bar have to be set??

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:59 (eighteen years ago)

(i was just curious, that's all.)

― Mr. Que, Friday, 20 April 2007 16:59 (eighteen years ago)

xpost tracer you sound like the what-about-the-children simpsons character

i've been depressed at work because i'm fucking tired from playing san andreas until 2:30 the morning previous, i know that much

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)

for what it is worth, i don't think kids or teenagers should be playing these sorts of games at all

― Mr. Que, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:01 (eighteen years ago)

haha gff, i wanted to ask about this - do most people play Grand Theft Auto in third-person or first-person mode? As flagrantly tasteless as that game is, for some reason I don't put it in the same category of numb, repetitive idiocy as FPSs

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

san andreas doesn't count it's third person

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:04 (eighteen years ago)

nabisco is pretty good at HALO I think

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)

the bar should be set at the point where we can draw absolute lines between comsuming a particular kind of media and doing a particular act. right now that can't be done and i doubt if it ever can be.

xposts: playing san adreas in 1st person is like asking for a headache! plus i know i have some moral sense left cos i actually feel a little pang of something when i drive over a rollerblader or whatever.

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:05 (eighteen years ago)

Kids ought to stick to platform games, so when they go nuts they only jump on giant mushrooms and smash all the fruit in the house.

― sexyDancer, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

hahahaha

― Mr. Que, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

hahahahahahahah

― river wolf, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:08 (eighteen years ago)

it's a good thing I don't hang around places with a lot of clay pots, you know

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:10 (eighteen years ago)

hey there might be money or food in there

SMASH!!! SMASH!!! SMASH!!! SMASH!!! SMASH!!!

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

or own a boomerang

― TOMBOT, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

"Nor is anyone saying that one causes the other. I'm saying that the VT killings and the extraordinary popularity of FPSs -- and the NRA -- are products of the same fascination with guns as a means of personal power and control."

Are you just noting that fascination with guns is a common thread here, or something more? What do you mean by "product" and what follows?

And why is it so unreasonable to expect parents to not let their children play violent video games? I mean yeah it's an uphill battle when everybody isn't on the same page and your kids can play violent video games at their friends with slacker parents houses... But my parents didn't have any trouble sheltering the crap out of me. I only got to see Predator because my rec baseball coach worked at the video store and talked my mom into it and she was pissed with him after that.

― Kerm, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:12 (eighteen years ago)

most realistic killing simulations ever created, with YOU as the killer!

oh cmon tracer, this is straight from the moms freaking out about doom "because it's same thing as the military uses to train soldiers to KILL!!11!!"

The fact that everyone involved with the game's creation to distribution to critical reaction/reviewing, all members of the subculture if you will, repeatedly insist than minors should have nothing to do with these games.

Also, with the games for children thing, the problem is with the critics, since most Joe Lieb/Hillary-concerned-parent-types who can't conceive of certain kinds of media being for anyone BUT children. The same thing goes for animation, comics, whatever, so that whenever artists decide to do something in this medium that isn't for a young audience, the Defenders of Conventionalism savagely excuriate that artist. We can all thank St. Paul for fundamentally crippling wide segments of western culture for 2000 years.

xp

― kingfish, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:12 (eighteen years ago)

haha tom i love the thing in that gamer's manifesto: NO MORE CRATES

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

really tho, the um national conversation about this is about coming up with the pie chart of motive/causation, about fixing the size of the slices between mental illness, gun availability, social alienation, media habits, any number of other things. the comforting thought is that if just one slice were removed from that pie, the act wouldn't have happened. fwiw i think the violence game/movie slice is tiny in this instance

sadly, the politics of this means that pundits (i'm looking at you, right wingers) (and you too maybe, tracer!) start talking about the same shit they always would have; the same slice of the pie they have readymade arguments about.

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:19 (eighteen years ago)

^^^ violenT game/movie

― gff, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:20 (eighteen years ago)

I don't have a hard and fast stance on any of this. It just seems crazy to me that kids are barred by law from buying cigarettes and porn but not on buying a murder simulation. Signed, your friend, Mr. Ol Fuddy Pants

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:21 (eighteen years ago)

Oh and don't underestimate me, I have ready-made argument for ANYTHING.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:22 (eighteen years ago)

Tracer I feel you on the whole FPS games thing. I'm a fan of the genre but I do find it a little off-putting to say the least...

And even IF we determined conclusively that violent/FPS videogames can be tied to rampages like Cho's (good luck there) and we agreed that these games should be 'restricted' in some way, what would that restriction be? Say it was as hardcore as a complete ban to anyone under 18 (or even 21). Cho was a 23-year-old college student - on paper the type of person who would be deemed "safe" to play. (Yes maybe he's been playing these games since he was 14 and this could have helped, etc etc).

Tons of good wider discussion points here, but at the root is still a mental health issue that is very difficult to "screen".

― Rob Bolton, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:22 (eighteen years ago)

ok i know that violent games are already 'restricted', but i meant more seriously restricted/enforced

― Rob Bolton, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:23 (eighteen years ago)

the thing about a horror show like VA tech is that there's not much you can do to prevent it - the UK is great and all w/ gun crime but you all had your dunblane massacre too - the nice thing is it gets us talking about what we can do about the 1000s of single-victim murders that happen every year and general discussion of how to improve public health + security in this country, the bad part is everybody wants to map the solution onto this, as if the goal of reducing gun violence is to keep another VA tech from happening, or that goal of a national intelligence agencies and airport security should be to prevent another 9/11 from happening

― moonship journey to baja, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:28 (eighteen years ago)

when/if i have kids i'm not letting them near anything FPS games, at all.

― félix pié, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

And why is it so unreasonable to expect parents to not let their children play violent video games? I mean yeah it's an uphill battle when everybody isn't on the same page and your kids can play violent video games at their friends with slacker parents houses...

I don't think it's unreasonable whatsoever. Media exists that requires a certain level of learning/cog.development to handle properly, so this follows.

I've been playing games obsessively for about a quarter century. Christ, i'm the guy who wanted I LOVE GAMES to be created, and there's definitely shit out there i don't want my future kids(or my current nephews) playing. Just like how I'm not letting my kid see Aliens or Predator* 'til he gets a certain age, there's no way I'm letting my kid play whatever the next gen of GTA is until a certain age.

Maybe it's just bad parenting; I was sitting in a waiting room last week and the pre-adolescent next to me was playing Liberty City Stories on his PSP. His mom was next to him, a lady of about my age. Is it a matter of parents not having any idea what's actually in the game, or just the attitude that there is no-age-appropriate function in consuming media?

*(note: as for Alien vs Predator, I'm do my damnedest to make sure he never sees this massive disappointment and waste of celluloid)

― kingfish, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:30 (eighteen years ago)

Parenting is just an excuse to not let the government handle it.

― Kerm, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:31 (eighteen years ago)

Doesn't follow. We have (in Europe) gun control laws so that guns are less likely to fall into the hands of criminals and psychopaths. I can't see why it's inconceivable to exercise some censorship on the most violent of shooter games, on the grounds that they raise levels of stress and aggression in a way that could be dangerous in the hands of potentially violent and mentally unstable people. (Subject to clear evidence that they could be triggers.)

Guns /= videogames. Guns are far more lethal than videogames. (That said, I still find it wrong to ban guns at all. Control? Yes. Ban? I don't think that's the way to go, really.) Sure you can shove a game in someone's troath, but as far as I know there's no direct link between videogames and actual killing, except when the court or some loony cruscader says it's the EVILEST THING EVAH. I mean, shit man, did they also wave books around saying those instigated murders? I mean, yes, there is a *breeding ground* for these people - in the *right* environment* they will set off and kill people, but at the end of the day it seems quite ridiculous to censor/ban videogames because a handful of people have commited crimes that were linked to videogames. It seems as ridiculous as saying Marilyn Manson being at fault in riualistic killings. Actually, I take that back, I have heard a few MM songs and I was tempted to kill a few innocent My Little Ponies.

That said, I won't let my children play these games until they are well into their teens and I know they can *take it*. If they mumble to themselves, dress in black, I will first make'em smoke some weed and listen to reggae music before they can even touch a videogame. ;-)

― stevienixed, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:32 (eighteen years ago)

vahid OTM

xpost

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:35 (eighteen years ago)

^^^^^

― river wolf, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:36 (eighteen years ago)

I'm sure it's a matter of the parent not knowing. That's what's so wrong about it.

Also: "We have (in Europe) gun control laws so that guns are less likely to fall into the hands of criminals and psychopaths."

We do have some of those in America too.

― Kerm, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:36 (eighteen years ago)

I was pretty good at Halo! Mostly cuz some of my Chicago friends were game animators, and always had it on. I don't usually like FPS blow-outs, though, and tend to suck at them -- multiplayer Halo was more appealing because it felt a lot more like Laser Tag, not some hardcore killfest. Those shooters where you rocket-launch something and they've animated blood splatters and heads flying off and whatnot = not really inviting. Cartoony Nintendo platform stuff = pretty much all I'm ever good at.

This discussion is starting to remind me of the lonerish Taiwanese guy who lived in my first-year college suite (we spent an entire semester thinking his room was a closet and then freaked out when we saw him go into it) who had a whole array of bizarre imported Playstation games. They were mostly pornographic, though, not violent. And he was nice, and showed my neighbor how to modify his Playstation to play Asian games.

― nabisco, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:37 (eighteen years ago)

i don't think the games should be censored, necessarily, but at the same time i can't really see what sort of positive effect the games have overall. of course i've been tempted to buy a Playstation before, based on my enjoyment of something like Vice City, but that was less because of any psychological effects the game might have and more due to the fact that i'd probably end up reading and listening to music less and i already don't do enough of either.

― félix pié, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:39 (eighteen years ago)

/wipes tear from eye at mention of Playstation modchips

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:42 (eighteen years ago)

/wipes tear from eye at memory of Bushido Blade

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:42 (eighteen years ago)

/wipes tear from eye at memory of Ghost in the Shell

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

/wipes tear from eye at memory of Elizabeth St. mall, which had every Japanese game the day it hit the street

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:44 (eighteen years ago)

Part of all this hubbub seems to me a wild thrashing against things that can't really be prevented. It's almost like an earnest if futile attempt to try to prevent the horrors that occur without reason in daily life. Horrific shit happens, despite our best efforts to prevent it.

At a certain point, it requires a certain amount of perspective. Traumatic, horrifying shit can happen to us, despite our wiring to do anything but think about that. It's like with suddenly being aware to the possibility of violent attacks(terrorist or otherwise); the possibility has always been there, but we don't want to think about that. End result being that when horrific shit does happen, we(at least in America) freak the fuck out and over-react.

― kingfish, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:45 (eighteen years ago)

or under-react

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:52 (eighteen years ago)

or react exactly right

― bernard snowy, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:55 (eighteen years ago)

okay, glad we got that covered

― bernard snowy, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:55 (eighteen years ago)

I mean really - what basic, fundamental change will we make as a result of this that actually goes any distance towards lessening either psychotic mass shootings in America OR the single murders that plague poor neighborhoods? Not much, I bet. cf. September 11

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:56 (eighteen years ago)

I'm just going to append that to all my posts now, byt he way. "cf. Sept. 11"

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 April 2007 17:57 (eighteen years ago)

That's a pretty basic, fundamental change right there.

― Kerm, Friday, 20 April 2007 18:00 (eighteen years ago)

My prediction is the number of "gun-free zones" will diminish. Haven't gun rights been expanding lately, in general? The DC home defense ban repealed, more CCW permit reciprocity, Shall Issue laws, Florida's SB 436 self-defense law, etc.

― Kerm, Friday, 20 April 2007 18:05 (eighteen years ago)

Part of all this hubbub seems to me a wild thrashing against things that can't really be prevented. It's almost like an earnest if futile attempt to try to prevent the horrors that occur without reason in daily life. Horrific shit happens, despite our best efforts to prevent it.

again, I find this to be a defeatist attitude. there's a lot of work to be done in the research and treatment of psychopathic individuals. if the current hubbub causes another couple of million dollars to be thrown at this underfunded research, it's worth it - there's a spectrum of psychopathic behavior that could be ameliorated. this goes from people who stalk and kill women to spree killers to serial killers to serial rapists.

but we have to stop focusing on environmental factors like movies and pornography and video games. there's enough superstition and magical thinking that goes on in our society without confusing mental health problems with forms of entertainment.

― Edward III, Friday, 20 April 2007 18:40 (eighteen years ago)

you're right, we need to redouble our efforts in the field of phrenology

― moonship journey to baja, Friday, 20 April 2007 18:42 (eighteen years ago)

or trepanation

― sexyDancer, Friday, 20 April 2007 18:43 (eighteen years ago)

considering the ability is something as subtle as the physical space in which one lives can have some psychological effect, i don't think we should steer clear of looking at possible influences such as exposure to violence and fps games (especially w/r/t children). there's a tendency to assume that argument is just some right-wing bullshit but there's some validity to it.

― félix pié, Friday, 20 April 2007 18:44 (eighteen years ago)

I don't see how the two parts of your first sentence necessarily go together. considering that the entire world can have an effect on one's psychological makeup... it seems arbitrary to focus on one particular medium because of people's gut feelings about it.

― bernard snowy, Friday, 20 April 2007 19:08 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, games and movies and television (and gunshots in the real world) are to blame, but there is no point in censoring all of those things now, the cat is out of the bag and everyone has now been brainwashed into thinking that it's not that big a deal to shoot a gun at someone. Hell, it's even fun - I like stomping around those virtual worlds too, and every bullet I shoot there, every shot I see on TV, every one of them subconsciously diminishes the impact a real gunshot has in my mind. I rationally know that it's terrible to shoot a gun at someone, but after thousands of gunshots on tv and in the movies, it's hard to be rational ALL the time.

It's not _that_ hard to imagine that for some people and in some situations, that rational correction can completely fail.

― StanM, Friday, 20 April 2007 19:22 (eighteen years ago)

(didn't come out 100% right, but you get the gist)

― StanM, Friday, 20 April 2007 19:23 (eighteen years ago)

Shouldn't we be on the gun control thread though?

― StanM, Friday, 20 April 2007 19:25 (eighteen years ago)

no, i'm not going back over there.

― kingfish, Friday, 20 April 2007 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

Also, i don't want to sound overly defeatist, b/c I think there are good, active, preventative measures that can be put into place. There are systems we can put into place to head off the vast majority of problems, including ones where we don't provoke more incidents in occuring.

At the same time, we can stop 99.95% of these incidents.

― kingfish, Friday, 20 April 2007 20:41 (eighteen years ago)

gun control thread is okay now, I swear!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 20 April 2007 21:39 (eighteen years ago)

Just was referred to one of the many conservative columnists blaming this on liberalism, and I actually read it, Peggy Noonan's column in the WSJ, her basic argument (besides that white-bearded professors are too "soft") being that he should have been kicked out of the school already, that not to do so was unkind to him, i.e. protecting him from the consequences of his own actions. I was intrigued by this idea, though she misses the point that her beloved capitalism is part of what's caused universities to become depersonalized degree factories.

― Bnad, Friday, 20 April 2007 22:12 (eighteen years ago)

I can't even begin to imagine what his relatives are going through at the moment:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OKJ12O2&show_article=1

― StanM, Friday, 20 April 2007 22:30 (eighteen years ago)

More Norman Mailer (from Oswald's Tale):

Like an octopus, the media seized the event with its limbs and suffocated movement with its body. The media had become a new force in human existence; it was on the way to taking over everything, as Nixon would learn at Watergate, and as Oswald would find out in a thunderclap on Sunday at 11:22 in the morning after two days of gathering in some vast multiple all the attention he had been denied for most of his life.

There's very little that's new here.

― fife, Friday, 20 April 2007 23:21 (eighteen years ago)

Letting your kids play violent videogames is not bad parenting. Hell, I play violent videogames with my pre-adolescent son. Have you seen how kids that age interact over games like HALO? The old stereotype of the pasty-faced loner in the basement is far, far from the social reality of videogames and the pre-adolescent culture surrounding them (carrying their controllers with them to their friends' houses like we used to carry a football, playing multiplayer on Xbox Live, whatever). And, just like with adults, if you ask these kids whether they know the difference between reality and the actions of musclebound meat-heads like Marcus Fenix in Gears Of War, f'rinstance, they look at you to see if you're being serious, laugh and say "dude, this is a game!" And compared to my own generation, these boys are pretty gentle and considerate out in the real world, so I'm not convinced that video games have any significant detrimental effect on our culture. Plus, youth violence in most (all?) of the western world actually peaked in 1992 or '93, then dropped consistently thereafter, just when video games were ratcheting up the gore and mayhem.

The only proviso I'd give credence to, however, is that someone already significantly uncoupled from consensus reality -- whether via some kind of predisposition or through childhood abuse, neglect, etc., or some combination of the two -- is probably going to be negatively affected by all types of media violence. So, age is perhaps less of a factor than overall mental or emotional health, a state of affairs which -- as we see with the issue of guns themselves -- doesn't provide any simple solutions.

Fire away (ha) at the "bad" parent if you like!

― Lostandfound, Saturday, 21 April 2007 00:47 (eighteen years ago)

Halo is pretty innocuous, but would you play the Postal games with yer kids?

― kingfish, Saturday, 21 April 2007 01:02 (eighteen years ago)

It's never come up. I don't know. If he asked about it, I'd get him to explain why he wanted to play it and we'd take it from there. Nothing's ever come up that I've ever said no to yet, mainly because he's such a thoughtful kid and seems to have his shit very much together in how he treats real people, etc. We've played GTA:SA together and after initially going on random murderous rampages, like most of us he got bored with that and got into the fuller CJ experience. But you know, if he'd gone on said murderous rampages and "only" killed hookers while whispering "Die, ho bitch, die" under his breath, I don't think I'd be so sanguine. Context matters. Maybe I'm just lucky with him, but his friends, with one or two possible exceptions, seem fine too (but with adolescence around the corner, all this will change, of course).

― Lostandfound, Saturday, 21 April 2007 01:21 (eighteen years ago)

Halo is pretty innocuous, but would you play the Postal games with yer kids?

If I thought they were mature enough!

― JW, Saturday, 21 April 2007 01:29 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, it's a judgment call, though. What if we're wrong?

― Lostandfound, Saturday, 21 April 2007 01:32 (eighteen years ago)

hopefully someone will tell you before he gets to college

― moonship journey to baja, Saturday, 21 April 2007 01:46 (eighteen years ago)

I've played Counter Strike on a high enough level to have earned a decent amount of money from it and to me it's like playing a game of multiplayer chess. I don't bother with games like Soldier Of Fortune(where the violence part is THE most essential thing). I'm around lot's of small kids in my family and if we play games it's either gonna be sports games or super mario(or other mellow adventure games).

I see no point in introducing them to the really violent games at a young age.

But as underpants said it.. I guess the point is not what videogames do to sane people, but what they might do to insane people.

― MRZBW, Saturday, 21 April 2007 01:50 (eighteen years ago)

hopefully someone will tell you before he gets to college

Nobody's infallible. I worked with abused and neglected kids for almost two decades, though. Give me some credit.

― Lostandfound, Saturday, 21 April 2007 01:53 (eighteen years ago)

a few things:

1) Old Boy is an awesome movie. Granted, it was given to me by a friend who was expelled from a creative writing class i was once in (for writing...uh...violent and sexually explicit stories), and he is now in a remote rehab facility in AZ for alcoholism. But nonetheless, awesome movie.

2) Killer had a speech impediment. Even BEFORE he moved to the US. Perhaps that explains the silence and the weird robotic nature of his mouth-soundings.

3) Creative writing majors at most colleges are boring fucks. If I had known that I was going to be surrounded by idiots who don't know shit about writing when I chose my major, I would have.

4) One of the things that concerns me about this incident is the scape-goating of those who are depressed, mentally ill, or otherwise. There is enough of this already in the world.

5) RIP.

― the table is the table, Saturday, 21 April 2007 03:14 (eighteen years ago)

ooh, should have mentioned that i don't want to kill any of my fellow creative writing majors. just force them to throw out their televisions and give them a pile of books to read.

― the table is the table, Saturday, 21 April 2007 03:15 (eighteen years ago)

(also, not reallly 'fellow' right now. not enrolled, thanks be to god)

― the table is the table, Saturday, 21 April 2007 03:17 (eighteen years ago)

Creative writing majors at most colleges are boring fucks. If I had known that I was going to be surrounded by idiots who don't know shit about writing when I chose my major, I would have.

shit.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 21 April 2007 03:21 (eighteen years ago)

3) Creative writing majors at most colleges are boring fucks. If I had known that I was going to be surrounded by idiots who don't know shit about writing when I chose my major, I would have.

They all think the same thing too.

― Hurting 2, Saturday, 21 April 2007 03:33 (eighteen years ago)

When I realized that the guy in the PowerQuest shirt (who chose to write his paper on "games...cause gaming is my life, it's all I do,") was a creative writing major with aspirations of being the next Piers Anthony, I was bothered.

But, as per Hurting, he probably thinks I'm a loser who can't write too.

("he's not the only one" etc)

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 21 April 2007 03:53 (eighteen years ago)

But wrong thread, sorry.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 21 April 2007 03:53 (eighteen years ago)

Actually, it's probably more accurate that something like 60% of creative writing majors (other than in maybe the very top programs) want to write genre fiction and don't realize there's any other kind, and the other 40% think that 60% are idiots and the rest of their own 40% are pretentious idiots.

― Hurting 2, Saturday, 21 April 2007 04:05 (eighteen years ago)

BIG HOOS aka the creativewritingmajor

― am0n, Saturday, 21 April 2007 04:39 (eighteen years ago)

just reading a mcnair research journal - grad student @ pitzer published an interesting study

adolescents were *exposed* to a video game for 1 hour it was something called "burnout: revenge" which is a "road rage" game where you play a psycho commuter or something running other cars off the road.

one group actually played the game for an hour, the other group was shown still pictures, sound and video from the game. afterward, they took each person and gave them a sort of role-playing exercise - they read a story describing a "road rage" incident where another driver behaved aggressively towards them and they were asked to choose potential responses and rate their own person hostility level or something like that.

they found that people who actually played the video game were 1.5x - 2x more likely to choose hostile / reckless courses of action than people who just watched the game being played, although the researchers were quick to point out that this could easily be put down to the fact that after playing the game for an hour, the adolescents were pretty wound up.

the *interesting* part is they took *half* of the subjects and gave them a modified questionnaire which asked them several questions about their parents up front - interestingly, this sub-group showed no deviation between people who had watched video games or played video games, and the likelihood of hostile or risky behavior shown was ~50% lower than the subjects who had a parent-free questionnaire.

the conclusion the author supported was that *parent involvement* in video-gaming can be a moderating influence against whatever negative psychological influence videogames might have - there was a pretty thick bibliography at the end too that of literature supporting that ...

― moonship journey to baja, Saturday, 21 April 2007 15:50 (eighteen years ago)

I don't know if this has been addressed - i have tried to read this thread, but it does get unwieldy, BUT...
The campus police dismissed the inital shootings as a domestic violence incident. meaning - an isolated act.
What bothers me is the assumption that a domestic violence incident is less worthy of great concern than any other shooting that causes death!

The assumption led to the campus police thinking the shooter had fled.
Which was fucked up.
The assumption itself is so prevalant. Angry, unstable stalking person shoots people, including the stalkee.
This is normal? This is assumed behaviour?
30 people died because of an assumption.

― aimurchie, Saturday, 21 April 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

^^^ none of this makes sense

― moonship journey to baja, Saturday, 21 April 2007 16:38 (eighteen years ago)

Multiple shooting at Virginia Tech university

^^^ none of this makes sense

― lfam, Saturday, 21 April 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)

― lfam, Saturday, 21 April 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

well, alleged autism

― lfam, Saturday, 21 April 2007 17:03 (eighteen years ago)

The campus police responded to the initial shooting as a domestic violence incident - young man goes crazy because he was jilted.
They assummed he left, after shooting.
Why would an armed person shooting be more or less of an issue when it's "domestic violence" "stalking" or any other term that implies some relationship?
Crazed gunman goes on rampage.
The response to the first shooting was very much based on an assumption that it was a wacky guy who was wreaking revenge on an ex-girlfriend - and that he had left the campus.

The police acknowledge that they thought they were responding to a domestic violence call - shooting.

My point is that classifying these incidents isn't really helpful.
And that classifying an incident as domestic violence leads to a general sense of "Oh, well, it's just a pair of idiots arguing."

The first two people killed had no relationship with the shooter.

― aimurchie, Saturday, 21 April 2007 18:33 (eighteen years ago)

Sorry - I guess i interrupted a game conversation.
It still sucks, but whatever.

― aimurchie, Saturday, 21 April 2007 18:37 (eighteen years ago)

the conclusion the author supported was that *parent involvement* in video-gaming can be a moderating influence against whatever negative psychological influence videogames might have - there was a pretty thick bibliography at the end too that of literature supporting that ...

Burnout: Revenge is great! Calling it a road rage game is like calling Call Of Duty a skirmish game, though. It's cartoon mayhem. Anyway, the above quote is along the lines of what I was trying to say earlier.

― Lostandfound, Saturday, 21 April 2007 22:20 (eighteen years ago)

and i'm surprised there isn't more talk about cho's autism (i'm assuming asperger's syndrome). he apparently never received any treatment or therapy for it. i think that if he had he would probably not have felt so isolated and worthless.

This runs along the same lines as the point i made about his speech impediment. perhaps if he had received therapy for that, he wouldn't have kept creepily silent all the time.

― the table is the table, Saturday, 21 April 2007 22:50 (eighteen years ago)

also, about the creative writing thing...here is my official breakdown:

10% of the kids in any workshop know how to write well and do.
20% are good writers who need to work on their ideas a bit more.
20% have great concepts but are helpless as to how they should come to fruition.
50% are fucktards who are really into the Believer, McSweeney's, and watching horrible television programs.

in actuality, i'd say i'm a bit more of the first 20% than the 10%. also worth mentioning that i despise writing fiction, and concentrate on poetry.

― the table is the table, Saturday, 21 April 2007 22:54 (eighteen years ago)

(that is from my experience, being in a program like Oberlin's, which is a notoriously difficult program to get into)

― the table is the table, Saturday, 21 April 2007 22:55 (eighteen years ago)

WTF? Cho was a rubber duckie fetishist?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0422071cho1.html

― StanM, Monday, 23 April 2007 07:34 (eighteen years ago)

discourse on this continues to turn my stomach... this article starts bad and gets worse, ultimately laying a theoretical bag of blame at john woo's feet. wtf?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/19/AR2007041901817.html

The search for movie influences is part of the search for the explanation behind the frenzy: We need to understand what caused this young man to step off into the oblivion of nihilism on a massive scale. What was the mechanism -- or was there even one? Too many movies? Too many video games? Too many rude shoves in the locker room? A genetic predisposition for mass murder? Too many date-night turndowns? Why?

So the movies seem like a propitious place to start, given the photographs in the package Cho sent to NBC News in his now infamous posthumous statement of principles. Thus "Oldboy" must feature prominently in the discussion, even if no one has yet confirmed that Cho saw it.

yes, when we want to investigate a spree killer's motivations the first thing we should do is find some movies he may have possibly watched, the answer is definitely there. *sigh*

― Edward III, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

I wouldn't underestimate the effect that powerful images and narrative that visualize and glorify a cathartic, violent revenge scenario could have on an unstable, desperate, unhappy, impressionable mind. Obviously most people who watch these movies don't ever carry out the actions portrayed. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a small minority who might not be influenced by them. I think the key question is whether the content of entertainment which is made for free, mature, independent adults should be censored to protect the deranged.

― o. nate, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:39 (eighteen years ago)

I've played Counter Strike on a high enough level to have earned a decent amount of money from it

whoa leet! how?

― gff, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:44 (eighteen years ago)

o. nate why is the "key question" about censorship? since no one here has advocated censorship in the first place?

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:47 (eighteen years ago)

Well, I'm not saying anyone's advocating censorship, but it seems like there is at least an implication in some of these comments that artists and/or Hollywood should perhaps practice a bit of self-censorship.

― o. nate, Monday, 23 April 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)

Dunno if this is discussed upthread, but I have a question, and I don't want to post it to the gun control thread because over there it will be interpreted as an "argument" and not a "question" (and it really is a question, I swear): on McLaughlin this weekend, Laurence O'Donnell was finger-wagging and claiming that the clips/magazines (which he described as "automatic") used by the shooter were covered by the Clinton-era Assault Weapons Ban, and available now due to Bush letting said legislation sunset. People who know stuff about guns: T/F? (The McLGroop do tend to talk out of their asses a whole lot, so I can't even begin to guess how accurate the statement is.)

― nabisco, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

it's highly irresponsible for the washington post to publish a piece hypothesizing about what movies cho may or may not have seen. what is the value in that? it's fine if they want to cite studies or research linking films and violence, but this kind of grasping armchair-psychology-cum-film-criticism is useless. I agree with o. nate, it's bound to be cited as "proof" in the future campaign of some censor who hasn't yet grasped this concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

in general I question the value of emphasizing the efffect of movies on a violent person's behavior, especially when trying to find root causes. psychopathic personalities certainly seek out these types of films but the films themselves don't *cause* their psychopathic behavior. anymore than the beatles caused the manson family to kill, taxi driver caused hinckley to shoot reagan, or marilyn manson caused klebold and harris to shoot up columbine. know what made them kill? THEIR MESSED UP BRAINS.

objects in their environment that became part of their fantasy / reinforced their worldview are certainly of interest. but if the process is killing spree -> what caused it -> let's keep it from happening in the future, and your answer is violent music/movies/video games, that's a lazy and quite likely fruitless approach, especially in a free society that values the arts.

― Edward III, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:35 (eighteen years ago)

Nabisco, I believe that's right, yes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapons_ban

(and specifically the final point - reintroduction didn't happen in February of this year)

― StanM, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

(and also the "expiration of the ban" bit - GWB had promised to extend it in 2004, but it somehow failed to happen)

― StanM, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:37 (eighteen years ago)

i don't think it would make much of a difference to the person using the gun because semiautomatic pistols reload themselves automatically after each shot. i don't know which magazines he used.

― lfam, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:39 (eighteen years ago)

10 round magazines and higher are defined as "assault" style magazines, so yes, i suppose they would have been illegal.

― lfam, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

I have to admit, I'm very surprised that there's been lots of general talk about gun control, but he was the first person I've seen specify that a specific recent decision would have made a difference in the guy's access to his tools. (I'll decline to follow him into his hypothetical reasoning about how people could have stopped the guy if he'd had different tools, but I guess it's not crazy to suggest that smaller magazines might have saved a person or two along the way.)

― nabisco, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

What was the mechanism -- or was there even one? Too many movies? Too many video games? Too many rude shoves in the locker room? A genetic predisposition for mass murder? Too many date-night turndowns? Why?

Perhaps THIS is a problem we can address with legislation?

― elmo argonaut, Monday, 23 April 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

Certainly the type of gun and clip makes a big difference. Semi-automatic weapons allow the most rapid repeat firing. The larger clips allow more shots to be fired between reloads - although, with practice, reloading with a new clip is pretty fast. The higher caliber weapon is naturally more deadly. This number of deaths would be pretty much impossible to achieve with a revolver, because someone could have easily tackled him while he was reloading.

― o. nate, Monday, 23 April 2007 17:01 (eighteen years ago)

You can buy a device called a speed-loader for a revolver that is close to the speed of reloading that a clip gives you. Also, two weapons pretty much destroys all of this "someone could have charged him!" nonsense.

I really think that the fact that the Gun Control thread has had periods of argument really shouldn't lead to us cluttering this thread up, though.

― John Justen, Monday, 23 April 2007 17:07 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah sorry, John -- that was my way of being clear that I just wanted to verify/debunk a statement about the Virginia killer, and not so much argue about gun control!

― nabisco, Monday, 23 April 2007 17:16 (eighteen years ago)

News at 11: right wing nut says something annoying.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2007/04/limbaugh_cho_wa.html

― StanM, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 08:29 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah I've been wondering about the "someone could have charged him!" logic because that's what I instinctively thought. Thanks for the answer--John Justen, I'm pretty sure there was only one weapon used 'per building' so to speak.

― riche, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 15:05 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/apr2007/20070420_mike-gallagher-virginia-tech.pdf

― Heave Ho, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 18:34 (eighteen years ago)

(some other) people on the internet are (also) sick, part 98765987987954698:

http://choseunghui.livejournal.com/

― StanM, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:12 (eighteen years ago)

Iraq students show Virginia Tech support

― Alba, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 07:14 (eighteen years ago)

three weeks pass...

but of course: V-Tech Rampage, the game.

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/378086

― StanM, Friday, 18 May 2007 13:28 (eighteen years ago)

not to bump this thread-- didn't read all of it, bt is anyone aware how difficult it is to shoot pistols accurately, and how unlikely it is to kill someone even if you hit them?? how the fuck didn't the gun jam?? this story seems drastically undertold and fucking insane. you'd have to have a hell of a lot of practice to be able to shoot like that. were the kids sitting still? i can't find any real detailed accounts of what went on on google.

― Chromski A.K. Gattlington, Monday, 21 May 2007 08:23 (eighteen years ago)

wrong forum though, sry :/

― Chromski A.K. Gattlington, Monday, 21 May 2007 08:24 (eighteen years ago)

one year passes...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/22/virginia.tech.death/index.html

ok not sending my kids to VATech

― Barack You Like A Husseincane (HI DERE), Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:11 (sixteen years ago)

what in the hell

― MIRV Griffin (goole), Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:12 (sixteen years ago)

Yang, 22, from Beijing, China, was killed at the Au Bon Pain restaurant

jesus h

― jordy (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:14 (sixteen years ago)

it seems like a really bad place to be an asian person???

― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:14 (sixteen years ago)

He just liked her a lot and didn't want anyone else to have her, bless!

― not_goodwin, Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:17 (sixteen years ago)

"An act of violence like this one brings back memories of the April 16 tragedy MANITOBA BUS DECAPITATION and I have no doubt that many of us feel especially distraught."

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:31 (sixteen years ago)

dude's on FB:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/s.php?ref=search&init=q&q=Haiyang%20Zhu

― (*ﾟーﾟ)θ L(。･＿･)　　　°~ヾ(･ε･ *) (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:33 (sixteen years ago)

Virginia Tech spokesman Mark Owczarski said Thursday that Xin Yang's killing was the first on the campus since April 16, 2007, when a shooter killed 32 people before turning a gun on himself.

― georgeous gorge (bernard snowy), Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:33 (sixteen years ago)

he only knew her two weeks and already hes decapitating her in an au bon pain WHOA SLOW DOWN THERE ROMEO

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:34 (sixteen years ago)

Time was, you chopped someone's head off all quiet-like in the privacy of your own home.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:35 (sixteen years ago)

i know this is a man-in-the-moon thing where u see a pattern that isn't really there. but damn, what is up with this place.

― MIRV Griffin (goole), Thursday, 22 January 2009 19:36 (sixteen years ago)

their bachelor's program in Total Batshit Psychoism ranks first in the nation according to U.S. News & World Report

― J0hn D., Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:09 (sixteen years ago)

I was trying to find the school with the most deaths and came across this semi-disturbing story: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/21/smiley.face.killer/index.html

It's like a movie pitch

― Barack You Like A Husseincane (HI DERE), Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:23 (sixteen years ago)

Argh WTF, journalist:

The detectives believe that the smiley faces were left by the killer or killers. They varied in size, with each face more haunting than the next.

― you can either be v v important or smash teenagers (nabisco), Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:27 (sixteen years ago)

I'm not even picking on the fact that that should probably be "last" and not "next," it's just ... you are writing a news story, not a true-crime novel

― you can either be v v important or smash teenagers (nabisco), Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:29 (sixteen years ago)

So the killers varied in size and have increasingly haunting faces; how come no one has brought them to Justice?

― Barack You Like A Husseincane (HI DERE), Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:29 (sixteen years ago)

http://www.anniemayhem.com/blog%20pics/WatchmenSmiley.gif

― Tracy Michael Jordan Catalano (Jordan), Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:30 (sixteen years ago)

Basically that sentence says that they drew the first smiley face really creepy and haunting, but as they killed again and again they started drawing more and more conventional, less emotionally resonant smiley faces

― you can either be v v important or smash teenagers (nabisco), Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:30 (sixteen years ago)

lol I meant "decreasingly" obv

― Barack You Like A Husseincane (HI DERE), Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:32 (sixteen years ago)

Not if the detectives saw the last one first and then investigated back into the past.

― StanM, Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:34 (sixteen years ago)

maybe the smiley faces stayed the same but they just became less haunting through repetition

― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:35 (sixteen years ago)

like eventually you'd just be like "oh another smiley face, huh"

― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:35 (sixteen years ago)

I prefer the n/a theory -- it wouldn't be nearly as sensationalistic if you found one really haunting one but then worked backwards to find much more quotidian non-creepy murders

― you can either be v v important or smash teenagers (nabisco), Thursday, 22 January 2009 20:36 (sixteen years ago)

ok loling at nab and n/a, but wtf VaTech?

― Socktor Duperman (k3vin k.), Thursday, 22 January 2009 21:50 (sixteen years ago)

savages

― eman, Friday, 23 January 2009 07:17 (sixteen years ago)

Obv taking a cue from Evil Otto, who killed at least 2 dudes in the 80s:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/55/imageuploadimagegf7.png

― Dr More BS (libcrypt), Friday, 23 January 2009 08:41 (sixteen years ago)

five months pass...

Yeah, great:

Mental health records for Virginia Tech gunman Seung-Hui Cho that were missing for more than two years have been discovered in the home of the university clinic's former director, according to a state memo sent to victims' family members.
Cho killed 32 people on April 16, 2007, then committed suicide as police closed in. His mental health treatment has been a major issue in the vast investigation of the shootings, yet the records' location had eluded authorities until they were uncovered by attorneys for some families of Cho's victims.
A memo from Gov. Tim Kaine's chief legal counsel to victims' family members says Cho's records and those of several other Virginia Tech students were found last week in the home of Dr. Robert C. Miller. The memo was obtained by The Associated Press on Wednesday.
The memo said Cho's records were removed from the Cook Counseling Center on the Virginia Tech campus more than a year before the shootings, when Miller transferred from his position at the clinic. Records for several other students were also at his home, the memo said.
''I appreciate your call, but I'm not making comment at this time,'' Miller said when reached at a number for his private practice.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 22 July 2009 16:40 (fifteen years ago)

sha-

― I love rainbow cookies (surm), Wednesday, 22 July 2009 16:42 (fifteen years ago)

deeznuts - did I offend you?

― Manalishi

― velko, Wednesday, 22 July 2009 17:25 (fifteen years ago)

lol

― "he said...all things passantino the night" (omar little), Wednesday, 22 July 2009 17:42 (fifteen years ago)

one month passes...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hnIVzil5Q0aiAyCpb8OkH_U8qfxAD9ABGCBO3

BLACKSBURG, Va. — Two Virginia Tech University students were found slain Thursday at a Jefferson National Forest campground that is a popular hangout for students, authorities said.

The latest killings are hitting a campus still reeling from the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history and the beheading of a student earlier this year.

The bodies of David Lee Metzler, 19, of Lynchburg and Heidi Lynn Childs, 18, of Forest were found by a passerby, Montgomery County Sheriff Lt. Brian Wright said. Both appear to have been shot, he said. Wright said Metzler's body was found inside a car in the parking area of the Caldwell Fields campground and Childs was found outside the car. The campground is about 15 miles from Virginia Tech's campus in Blacksburg.

A suspect has not been identified and autopsies were being conducted in Roanoke.

Metzler was a sophomore industrial and systems engineering major and Childs, a sophomore biochemistry major.

In an e-mail to students and staff, Virginia Tech President Charles Steger again was counseling his campus community. Two years ago, a student gunman killed 32 others and himself. In January, a doctoral student beheaded a fellow student in a campus cafe.

"Trauma like this is deeply painful to us all," Steger wrote. "Once again, this community is visited by senseless violence and tragedy upon aspiring young minds from our campus.

"I know that many of you likely have complex feelings about now. How can this happen in this area, at this time, to this community?"

Steger said the university would post information about memorial services on its Web site.

Fuck.

― Shakim O'Collier (kingkongvsgodzilla), Friday, 28 August 2009 15:06 (fifteen years ago)

whoah

― crabRCISE (gbx), Friday, 28 August 2009 15:17 (fifteen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.