"the early days of a better nation"? the official ILX thread for the 2007 scottish election(s)

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my democratic duty is done, with a sense of hope tempered by realism, a healthy dose of cynicism, and a reluctance ever to expect miracles again (i was doing enough of that 10 years ago).

whatever happens, whatever the result, nothing is going to change overnight. but this could be the slow beginnings of something enormous. today is a day for optimism; tomorrow for pragmatism.

i will spend today enjoying what i fondly believe is a frisson in the air. others might fear it's a chill wind :)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:04 (eighteen years ago)

(What Grimly isn't saying is that he's an Annabel Goldie fan. *runs away*)

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:05 (eighteen years ago)

(oh yeh: and if you want to talk about yer new, improved cooncil system, feel free. hence the plural. i don't. suffice it to say that it was very satisfying to cast four votes (didn't see the need for more).)

xpost: poor auntie A. there are few certainties about this election. her humiliation, especially by her english cohorts, is one of them.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:07 (eighteen years ago)

so i'm the only one of the ILX scottish contingent who got up at 7am to go and vote?

hmph.

i might make myself a bowl of porridge now.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:33 (eighteen years ago)

I am in the ILX English contingent, but I didn't have time to vote first thing this morning. I will be doing so on my way home from work though.

― C J, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:35 (eighteen years ago)

I've been up since before seven, but I haven't been arsed walking round the corner yet. I'll go on my way into work in half an hour or so.

We've only been leafleted by Labour and the SNP. Presumably no-one else thinks it's worth their while :-/

bee en pee posters galore in the West End just now :-(

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:37 (eighteen years ago)

really? i've not seen a single one on the soo'side. i'd forgotten about the nasty little fuckers completely until i saw them on the ballot paper.

do they really think glasgow's trendy west end (TM) is going to turn out for them? "they come over here, reduce the value of your sandstone townhouse conversion ..."

we got leafleted by everyone but, to my knowledge, nobody actually chapped the door. the leaflet drops seemed to happen in two or three clumps, too: there was precious little in the way of a personal touch.

the only one that really riled me was the christian party (or was it the christian alliance?) which was vilely homophobic.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:41 (eighteen years ago)

the SCP's election broadcast was laughable to the point of being offensive, too.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:42 (eighteen years ago)

The Scottish Greens one was (unintentionally) hilarious, hey the Nats have got Sean Connery, we've got the Porage Oats dude from the Book Group and the wee ginger one from Taggart! Vote for us!

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:45 (eighteen years ago)

We had the bnpbastards round here and they didn't even realise they were in the wrong ward and that they weren't standing in this one, thick cnuts.

― Ned Trifle II, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:53 (eighteen years ago)

I wonder how many people are influenced by cardboard posters tied to lamp posts?

I'll be chancing my arm after work, I forgot to notify them of my new address, so I'm hoping I can vote without my card, just giving them my previous address.

Always at the coo's tail.

― *rumpie*, Thursday, 3 May 2007 07:54 (eighteen years ago)

how long is it since you moved? you should be okay. i didn't have a card for this election (misunderstanding by the council) or indeed for the last one (postal-service fuck-up) but it doesn't really matter.

which is bloody terrible: they don't even ask for ID. still.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:08 (eighteen years ago)

I only moved in December, as long as nobody decides to impersonate me I should be okay.

― *rumpie*, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:16 (eighteen years ago)

They'll know who you are anyway since you've (presumably) registered your new house for council tax. You'll be fine. Take ID with you, and your council tax statement or something.

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:18 (eighteen years ago)

Embarrassed to admit it, but I only found out about the changes to council voting a couple of days back.

All in favour of it in principle, but I wonder if there's any danger of the BNP sneaking one through somewhere on second or third votes.

― Soukesian, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:21 (eighteen years ago)

i hope not, and don't think so. these, however, are the perils of democracy.

(excellent analysis of the scottish parliament's representational problems - not least "who actually has the right to form the next government?" - by the inestimable ian bell from yesterday's herald, here.)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:29 (eighteen years ago)

I voted days ago. There was no-one I wanted to vote for.

The only politician to have impressed me is Goldie: this is because she knows she has no chance of forming a coalition so can say what everyone thinks but no-one can admit in public.

My opinion on this election is that it has been / will be good for politics but bad for democracy. The fact that there might be some kind of change for the first time in 10 years is great. The fact that that change might be in the direction of big business nationalism is awful.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 3 May 2007 08:53 (eighteen years ago)

I'm going to vote after work. I anticipate a huge surge in "spoiled" papers with this latest "system" whereby you have two voting papers in three different colours and you put TWO 'X's one of them and vote as many times (or as high as you can count) on the other one but using numbers instead of 'X's. Oh, and this "don't fold your ballot paper(s)" thing is going to screw a few up as well.

We've only been leafleted by Labour and the SNP. Presumably no-one else thinks it's worth their while :-/

We've been leafleted by absolutely everyone. I read through about 25 pamphlets and came to this startling conclusion: thir aw arseholes!

the only one that really riled me was the christian party

You mean you didn't like they're revolutionary plan to ~~ship convicts to the colonies~~ contract out prison services to developing nations?

UK1P has candidates standing for election as MSPs on a platform of sacking all MSPs. I think I see a flaw in this policy.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:07 (eighteen years ago)

their, not they're

:(

I don't deserve a vote after that.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:08 (eighteen years ago)

I actually forgot to vote this morning, the polling station is at the end of my road so i'll do it when i get home. I think i'll be selling up and moving south of the border if the SNP get in - my sunday morning was ruined by opening up the paper to find one of their inserts - Nicola Sturgeon's gurning visage is not what i want to see first thing in teh morning.

― leigh, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:11 (eighteen years ago)

Do we really think this is the beginning of the end of the Union? Will Jack's scare tactics be enough to hold it together for another 4 years?

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:11 (eighteen years ago)

Also, something I was thinking about this morning:

Does Westminster have power to dissolve the Scottish Parliament? They've shut down the NI Assembly when stability was threatened: would Brown do the same with upstart separatists in charge in Scotland? He's already said he couldn't work with someone intent on breaking away from the UK.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:15 (eighteen years ago)

Well this is pretty much the inevitable combination of devolution + Blair's unpopularity + Scottish Labour's short-sightedness, so this election would only be a step on a road begun much earlier. BUT support for independence has been pretty much constant since 1992 or something (c. 35% I think) so there's no reason to believe a vote for SNP is a vote for independence.

I think Labour have totally over-reacted, and instead of threatening the electorate (you silly fools, look how scary they are) they should have partly conceded their own faults, and pointed out that the SNP have no experience, and can't be trusted. The SNP are the only alternative to the tainted Labour / Liberal folk and people have learnt that voting for the small parties might mean minor incremental changes but if they want apparent change it has to be the fishy party.

The Liberals are the real evil in all of this though.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:16 (eighteen years ago)

x-post. Yes, as far as I know, but I can't imagine a situation in which they'd use it -- given the extent to which the Westminster party still requires its Scottish MPs.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:17 (eighteen years ago)

The framing of the referendum process would be where Westminster would really exert its power over constitutional matters in Scotland.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:18 (eighteen years ago)

I can't imagine a situation in which they'd use it

They've gone further and done worse for (e.g.)oil than shut down a toothless talking shop. There's also the whole issue of the home of the nuclear deterrent and the future of numerous Navy shipbuilding projects. UK govt could easily make a case for protecting stability if they felt the need.

The framing of the referendum process would be where Westminster would really exert its power over constitutional matters in Scotland.

That's what I was thinking. I can't see any referendum going ahead that hasn't had the entire process vetted and approved by Westminster.

If SNP's alleged black hole* in their finances means tax rises significantly above the planned 3p I think people might be regretting that whole "tax changing powers" bit of devolution. How much does a 3p rise equate to for someone on £10k, which I believe is the starting level?

*re: black hole - get one new phrase hacks!

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:27 (eighteen years ago)

My primary concern if an independent Scotland came into being would be finding another job as i work for a Westminster government department in Edinburgh and the Scottish Executive pay is pish so i wouldn't want to transfer there.

― leigh, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:28 (eighteen years ago)

I can't see any referendum going ahead that hasn't had the entire process vetted and approved by Westminster.

it's not even that: the referendum would have to be held by westminster. the scottish executive, obviously, doesn't have the power to effect constitutional change. so any SNP-driven referendum would, in the first instance, be an academic exercise aimed at saying: "okay, this is how people feel." it wouldn't give the executive any mandate for change (at least, not practically; morally is another issue).

the westminster government could, in theory, shut down holyrood. but i think that would probably cause a small yet surprisingly bloody civil war :)

i'll come out and say it now: i'm pro-independence. but that is a long, long way away; it really isn't what this election is about. i really do believe that this time people can afford to vote SNP without pledging their allegiance to the "cause", as it were.

i've a lot more to say but the amount of work piling up is going to stop me. i look forward to returning later and getting dog's abuse :)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 09:57 (eighteen years ago)

From the Beeb

As a result of electronic counting and the new single transferable vote (STV) system for council elections, it is expected that results could be announced later than in past years.

Electronic counting is slower wtf?

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:54 (eighteen years ago)

o brave new world!

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:54 (eighteen years ago)

loving the fact Alasdair Gray is getting quoted a lot these days.

― the next grozart, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:07 (eighteen years ago)

i'm not sure if alba is reading ILX on his travels. if so, he'll moan about it.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:32 (eighteen years ago)

have charged my mother w/ my vote(s). or maybe my father. they are both pretty trustworthy

sean connery is such a turn-off. as is alex salmond

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:37 (eighteen years ago)

<i>said he couldn't work with someone intent on breaking away from the UK</i>

how unprofessional

read something about blair saying something amounting to "I'm just going--please don't give me a final kicking". think he may even have used the word "kicking"!! is this true?

also, the "don't worry, you'll have a scottish prime minister by july, anyway" is total wank

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:44 (eighteen years ago)

can we have a Convert Simple HTML to BBcode referendum in the first year of ILX2?

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:45 (eighteen years ago)

said he couldn't work with someone intent on breaking away from the UK

Going to have problems working with the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland then, isn't he?

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:47 (eighteen years ago)

also, the "don't worry, you'll have a scottish prime minister by july, anyway" is total wank

that's an understatement. i thought mrs fiendish was going to kill someone when she heard that.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:03 (eighteen years ago)

We already have a Scottish prime minister surely.

― leigh, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:15 (eighteen years ago)

what do you think?

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:16 (eighteen years ago)

I vote SNP anyways. People will give Labour "one last chance" as the tabloids have scared them into it.
Then they will moan for 4 years about the scottish parliament.
Then we go through the same process in 2011.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:21 (eighteen years ago)

do you like sean connery?

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:21 (eighteen years ago)

i think scottishness is a state of mind, which makes blair very much not scottish.

i have to say that, of course: i'm english. in that i was born, indisputably, in england.

my father is a born-and-bred scot; my mother was born in england and did most of her growing up in scotland. my dad tells me i'm scottish. i fail, in any way, to see how. i am an englishman living happily in scotland. that doesn't make me a scot, but it makes me a damn sight more scottish than blair.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:24 (eighteen years ago)

xpost
no

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:27 (eighteen years ago)

So what happened?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:45 (eighteen years ago)

the polls haven't closed yet.

― CarsmileSteve, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:54 (eighteen years ago)

and then there's seven or eight hours of counting, and that's just the urban seats, i doubt we'll get a "highlands and islands" result til middle of tomorrow (clue: it'll be for the liberals)

― CarsmileSteve, Thursday, 3 May 2007 20:56 (eighteen years ago)

Are Newsnight interviewing the wife from Rab C Nesbitt here? Is she still the most famous woman in Scotland or something?

Newsnight predicts SNP/Lib Dem/Green coalition for victory.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 21:52 (eighteen years ago)

tum te tum this is really boring kicking around this office right now. The editor is changing things because he's nothing else to do and I'm drinking gallons of limeade. Bring on the excitement.

In the pictures of the new counting machines, each one has a can of WD40 beside it. That bodes well!

Like someone just said: if the SNP can't win it this year, they'll never win it.

― stet, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:05 (eighteen years ago)

Wishaw to declare in 30 mins.

The new counting machines are fucking up all the time because people have been folding their ballots to put them in the boxes.

― stet, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:12 (eighteen years ago)

We had a very nice lady who stood next to the ballot boxes and told us not to fold the ballot papers in case we couldn't read the great big signs saying not to fold them.

Dom, Elaine C Smith (Mary Doll Nesbitt) likes to think she is a cultural commentator and woman of the people, a myth perpetuated by the Daily Record or Sunday Mail (can't remember which) which gives her a column to wank on at length about her simplistic folksy view of Scottish politics.

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:29 (eighteen years ago)

I think it's the sunday mail. I can't remember if she is SSP or SNP though.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:35 (eighteen years ago)

SNP. Rosie Kane fulfils the SSP crappy column requirement.

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:41 (eighteen years ago)

At least we had Highland Hoots to keep us going while we waited for the "action" to start.

Lib Dems are saying they'd only consider a coallition with SNP if the referendum on independence is off the agenda.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:43 (eighteen years ago)

(in that she's out in support of the SNP at the moment, she's not a member of the party - xpost re Elaine C Smith)

That Highland Hoots thing was rotten, mostly due to inclusion of Craig Hill.

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:46 (eighteen years ago)

BBC's predicting a collapse of the BennP's vote share based on Sunderland's results. Fingers crossed.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:47 (eighteen years ago)

Don't mind me ruining the thread about the future of your proud nation with all my Albion talk.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:47 (eighteen years ago)

It's about the future of your proud nation too, once Alex drinks all your oil.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:49 (eighteen years ago)

haud on, oor sandwiches is here

― stet, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:50 (eighteen years ago)

I hear Alex Salmond once kicked a baby in the face because it cried during a Deacon Blue gig he was at.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:50 (eighteen years ago)

(xp)

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:50 (eighteen years ago)

Tommy Sheridan is currently on the telly obscured by his enormous rosette. Also, his fringe appears to have separated from the rest of his hair.

(I can't actually be arsed listening to what he's talking about)

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:51 (eighteen years ago)

Have you got a different electoral show up there then? We've got Britain's tiniest MP, Sarah Teather, and John Reed threatening to beat up Nick Robinson.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:52 (eighteen years ago)

Aye.

I'd pay good money to watch John Reid lamping Nick Robinson. Oh, hang on, the magic of teh telly can let me flick over to BBC Englishes. Hurrah. Let us know when the fists get flying.

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:57 (eighteen years ago)

We've got something resembling the crappy teuchter comedy clips they just had on Highland Hoots.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:57 (eighteen years ago)

Lib Dems with teh first gain in Englishland and are currently WINNING.

(I keep typing Lid Bems)

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 22:59 (eighteen years ago)

Tony's Election Tennis Graphic wtf BBC just give us the fucking numbers.

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:03 (eighteen years ago)

Michael Portillo, Oona King, and... MARK OATEN. Make your own suitcase gag.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:10 (eighteen years ago)

In a pub covered in those fucking England flags

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:14 (eighteen years ago)

Brentwood have elected the first ever 18 year old councillor.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:15 (eighteen years ago)

OK, cool, some dude in Edinburgh walloped ballot boxes with a golf club and knacked loads of ballot papers. Excitement!

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:18 (eighteen years ago)

also, Western Isles knacked by fog so no helicopter to cart votes around islands.

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:19 (eighteen years ago)

Seat in Lincolnshire held by the toss of a coin wtf!

― onimo, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:22 (eighteen years ago)

when was the last time that happened? surely that's a bigger sto ... hang on, cheering ... back in a mo ...

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:32 (eighteen years ago)

Jack's down 7000 on last time. Mostly Save Monklands.

― stet, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:34 (eighteen years ago)

onimo, you got a link to that?

― stet, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:34 (eighteen years ago)

... oh, it was just mcconnell retaining his constituency. doubt very much he'll be retaining his FM's job, but hey :)

xposts

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:34 (eighteen years ago)

stet: it was a ticker on the bbc about 15 mins ago. like i say, i thought that was a substantially bigger story than anyone else seems to. it'll be on the wires, no?

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:35 (eighteen years ago)

BBC projection: +1% gains for Labour and the Tories, -2% for Lib Dems

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:36 (eighteen years ago)

anyway. i'm fucked if i'm staying up all night for this. i shall go to bed optimistic.

golf-club dude: that's fucking insane. what is he, some crazed casual? and the helicopte misery that's fucking up the western isles count ... hoo jesus.

stet: have a good night. hope all goes well. how many changes have there been to my leader page yet? [ducks]

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:36 (eighteen years ago)

1700 votes for the coffin dogders alliance, and I think 1000+ for the Christian nutjob party.

Blimey, Brian Taylor's braces/tie combo is hurting my head.

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:39 (eighteen years ago)

Ha, the boat taking ballot papers from Arran is now knacked too. We're NEVER going to get a result from this election ever.

― ailsa, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:39 (eighteen years ago)

oh aye, hang on:

Lib Dems are saying they'd only consider a coallition with SNP if the referendum on independence is off the agenda

yeh, that's been stephen's line all along. but i predict a MAMMOTH fudge tomorrow, followed by all parties claiming they've stuck valiantly to their guns.

don't think i'd get very interesting odds on that, either :)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:40 (eighteen years ago)

xpost to ailsa re arran: heh, mrs f's dad's postal ballot is done and dusted, at least!

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:40 (eighteen years ago)

this is a good thread

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:42 (eighteen years ago)

sticky buns and a full scottish: shittest election story ever. remind me what my FUCKING LICENCE FEE goes towards again?

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:43 (eighteen years ago)

What are the opinion polls saying? I missed the start of the program.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:43 (eighteen years ago)

(remembers that today he bought a six-disc wedding present peel-sessions box. decides the BBC are okay after all. goes to bed, quietly)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:44 (eighteen years ago)

no problem: http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2003/05_may/27/just_for_laughs.shtml

crossposts

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:45 (eighteen years ago)

oh, the laughs! the laughs!

right. i really am going to bed. i shall be up early and checking in here. night, all.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 23:46 (eighteen years ago)

night night.

― byebyepride, Friday, 4 May 2007 00:00 (eighteen years ago)

ticker on the bottom of the screen reveals that political pundit Brian's braces are specifically chosen for the political neutrality.

SNP just took West Dundee from Lab.

― Gukbe, Friday, 4 May 2007 00:13 (eighteen years ago)

Bloody hell, 1000 spoiled votes in one constituency alone.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 00:19 (eighteen years ago)

It's not on the wires, grimly.

― stet, Friday, 4 May 2007 00:23 (eighteen years ago)

a very large number of bnp posters in the west end were removed by the guy who puts up my posters. i think he might even have got them all as i didn't spot any tonight.

i'm going to try and stay up all night as i'm an election junkie but it's very dull at the moment so i might doze off.

― stirmonster, Friday, 4 May 2007 00:32 (eighteen years ago)

the bnp posters in the west end were very high up. i assumed it was done so nobody would tear them down. props to dude with ladder, then.

― Gukbe, Friday, 4 May 2007 00:36 (eighteen years ago)

If the SNP are going to beat Labour then it's going to be on the list vote. Constituency votes have big swings towards SNP so far but not enough to be 1st past the post. Looks like the SNP will do well with the list votes so really it's too close to call.

Turnouts don't seem to be as high as predicted either which is very disappointing.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 00:59 (eighteen years ago)

the latest from the ticker: "Glenn Campbell is the Justin Timberlake of BBC Scotland."

― Gukbe, Friday, 4 May 2007 01:23 (eighteen years ago)

the latest from the ticker, this time regarding the exiting Labour MSP from the Glenrothes consituency. She's going to get a reduncancy package worth half of her salary. "That is a nest egg of about £26,000, which should help ease the pain a wee bit."

― Gukbe, Friday, 4 May 2007 02:03 (eighteen years ago)

Apparently in Fife there's been front pages of the Daily Record(the anti snp stuff) being put up at polling stations and the candidate is furious.

When I went to vote today there was SNP posters removed from the outside of the polling station. These idiots must know the rules so what possesses them to fight dirty is beyond me.

Alex Salmond just won Gordon.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 02:08 (eighteen years ago)

With thousands and thousands of rejected papers across Scotland I do wonder how this will effect the list vote.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 02:11 (eighteen years ago)

'wind of change...blah..blah..blah'. the wind didn't get 50% off the electorate off their butts though.

― stirmonster, Friday, 4 May 2007 02:16 (eighteen years ago)

They're now saying that as many as 100,000 votes may have been rejected.

Is this bound to enforce the view that voting is a waste of time and not worth bothering in future?

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 02:24 (eighteen years ago)

or that the current system is too confusing for a lot of people? there were a lot of baffled looking voters when i voted.

― stirmonster, Friday, 4 May 2007 02:28 (eighteen years ago)

Either way it might stop people voting. The turnout is too low as it is without losing 100,000 votes.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 02:38 (eighteen years ago)

It was silly to have the different style of voting on the council elections to the scottish parliament ones.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 02:40 (eighteen years ago)

SNP take Govan.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 02:48 (eighteen years ago)

The broken fucked up system is the story, I think.

― stet, Friday, 4 May 2007 03:04 (eighteen years ago)

i concur. poor robin harper looked distraught at the impact it might have on his party.

― stirmonster, Friday, 4 May 2007 03:08 (eighteen years ago)

Of the 32 declared seats, 20 were swings from Labour to the SNP (even if Lab kept the seat).

― stet, Friday, 4 May 2007 03:11 (eighteen years ago)

There were two seats where the number of rejected ballots was larger than the majority!

― stet, Friday, 4 May 2007 03:11 (eighteen years ago)

it's odd how labour are actually up in a handful of constituencies.

― stirmonster, Friday, 4 May 2007 03:26 (eighteen years ago)

The talk seems to be that Labour will be the largest party (just) but them and the lib dems don't have the number of seats to for a majority government but may try and form a minority government and have to deal with the tories to get bills through. Or form a coalition with other smaller parties.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 03:31 (eighteen years ago)

they're giving up in bishopbriggs due to the counting machines going tits up. they'll be back tomorrow. i'm giving up too.

― stirmonster, Friday, 4 May 2007 03:32 (eighteen years ago)

Now one of the votes has been suspended until tomorrow. What an utter cock up.
x-post

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 03:33 (eighteen years ago)

More vote counts been suspended now. God knows when the result will be known.
Will be even know by the weekend the results?
No results at all known in Edinburgh.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 04:24 (eighteen years ago)

Presumably the spoilt ballot paper party will have done well in the list vote.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 04:27 (eighteen years ago)

Tommy Sheridan and Rosie Kane didn't make it on the Glasgow list vote. Scotland has it's 1st asian MSP as he was the top SNP guy on the list.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 04:45 (eighteen years ago)

Leaving the office after the server collapsed spectactularly with 5 minutes to final deadline.

The results are completely fucked. We'll be lucky to get a near-complete set of MSPs, no chance of council control picture. Talk of punting big results section until next week. Politicians all livid.

― stet, Friday, 4 May 2007 04:54 (eighteen years ago)

But either way, it looks like the SNP have swung it, just, and the Greens might find themselves kingmakers.

― stet, Friday, 4 May 2007 04:56 (eighteen years ago)

Brian Taylor thinks Labour have just done enough to be the biggest party.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 05:04 (eighteen years ago)

This is hilarious! They should run all elections like this. Much better as a spectator sport.

Victory so far for the party of Chaos, and I'm all in favour of that.

― byebyepride, Friday, 4 May 2007 07:41 (eighteen years ago)

Tommy Sheridan and Rosie Kane didn't make it on the Glasgow list vote

if sheridan's fucked, i can only say "good". the guy has let down everyone who ever voted for him, and really should just fuck off for good.

i say that as a former proud SSP voter.

Talk of punting big results section until next week

this was one of my first thoughts, lying in bed listening to radio 4: what the fuck would we put in it?

jesus. welcome to shambles scotland. purely personally, i don't quite see how anyone can fuck up their ballot papers but people's capacity to do daft things never ceases to amaze me, and i would absolutely agree that having, effectively, three different systems across two ballot papers on the same day is a recipe for fucking disaster.

some-time psephologist mrs fiendish helped her ageing dad fill in his postal ballot; the first thing she said afterwards was: "there are going to be thousands of spoiled ballot papers." she isn't surprised by the number; i am.

ach.

in other news: well done wales, who appear to have delivered a comprehensive gubbing to labour.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 07:44 (eighteen years ago)

and kerr: i hope you're getting some well-earned sleep now!

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 07:45 (eighteen years ago)

dere god. i just can't help feeling that, in a modern, technological democracy, this kind of shit JUST SHOULDN'T HAPPEN.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 07:52 (eighteen years ago)

FUCK ME, snp gain in cunninghame north! that's arran! by 48 votes!

woo fucking YAY!

that has substantially cheered me up.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 08:09 (eighteen years ago)

in a modern, technological democracy, this kind of shit JUST SHOULDN'T HAPPEN.

Should I write to the government and offer to run an ILX poll instead?

No results here at all :(

― Keith, Friday, 4 May 2007 08:16 (eighteen years ago)

48 to go and the SNP are only one behind.

Hazel Blears was a joy to listen to on R4 this morning. Far from being a failure, last night was a success for NuLab as it was better than last time and shows that people believe in them and what they say and that they are gaining new voters all the time. And there was me thinking the comedy slot was usually in the evening.

― aldo, Friday, 4 May 2007 08:55 (eighteen years ago)

The man in question in the "don't worry, you'll have a scottish prime minister by july, anyway" statement must be heartened to see all the Fife constiuencies lost now except the two very closest to him, and even they saw 5.6 and 7.9 swings Lab>SNP.

― aldo, Friday, 4 May 2007 09:04 (eighteen years ago)

Is Salmond going to resign his Westminster seat then?

Robin Harper was my modern studies teacher at Boroughmuir, even now i still want to call him Mr Harper. I can remember him leading a rousing chorus of 'the lumberjack song' in a Parisian restaurant on our school trip to France 20 years ago.

― leigh, Friday, 4 May 2007 09:22 (eighteen years ago)

salmond has always said he'll see out his westminster term. i think that's the honourable thing to do. others will disagree.

i have a lot of time for mr harper! what was he like as a teacher?

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 09:27 (eighteen years ago)

He was a really good teacher, lots of fun - I only had him in first and second year for modern studies but he was a guidance teacher too. Was always doing turns with his guitar at school concerts in a Dylanesque stylee.

He scared the bejesus out of our first year class by showing a documentary illustrating what would happen if a nuclear bomb were to drop on the centre of London in the days when that was still a possibility. Also used to wear crazy psychedelic ties and flared trews.

― leigh, Friday, 4 May 2007 09:35 (eighteen years ago)

I anticipate a huge surge in "spoiled" papers with this latest "system" whereby you have two voting papers in three different colours and you put TWO 'X's one of them and vote as many times (or as high as you can count) on the other one but using numbers instead of 'X's. Oh, and this "don't fold your ballot paper(s)" thing is going to screw a few up as well.

Me nailing it yesterday morning.

A guy in work told me there was an old bloke in his polling station who spent 10 minutes talking to people trying to suss out how to vote. Eventually he went away to a booth and came back ten minutes later with two ballot papers neat folded across the "DO NOT FOLD" warning.

― onimo, Friday, 4 May 2007 09:53 (eighteen years ago)

Pundits are now mentioning Michael Foot which basically = nuLab fucked.

― onimo, Friday, 4 May 2007 09:54 (eighteen years ago)

Looks like all the small parties are getting humped on the list redistribution (with 3 regions declared). Although Sheridan had personally humped all the socialist parties first...

― byebyepride, Friday, 4 May 2007 10:29 (eighteen years ago)

dere god. i just can't help feeling that, in a modern, technological democracy, this kind of shit JUST SHOULDN'T HAPPEN!

This is what EVERYTHING would be like in an independent Scotland ;-)

Also: 'democracy and technology do not mix.' Discuss

― byebyepride, Friday, 4 May 2007 10:31 (eighteen years ago)

er: i'm sorry. who's running the show at the moment? ah yes, that'd be labour and the libdems. who wouldn't be getting a FUCKING LOOK-IN in grimly's glorious new independent dawn :)

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 10:33 (eighteen years ago)

ha ha you won't be getting rid of the lib dem bawbags any day soon!

― byebyepride, Friday, 4 May 2007 10:39 (eighteen years ago)

someone far more eloquent than me wrote about this the other day: they will ALWAYS BE THERE, never actually winning anything but always with the assumption they have the right to be part of the scottish government.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 10:47 (eighteen years ago)

anyway ... i'm not sure how frequently i'll be able to check ILX now until sunday afternoon. so i shall bid you all adieu for the moment. hopefully by the time i'm back online we'll know a little more about what's going on ...

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 11:06 (eighteen years ago)

this is what happens when you get rid of FPtP!!!!

(i was having this argument (drunkenly) with lib dem friend the other night, eg "the ONLY reason you want PR is so yr always IN CHARGE, it's got NOTHING to do with democracy!")

― CarsmileSteve, Friday, 4 May 2007 11:07 (eighteen years ago)

Yes. That's true. The whole devolution settlement was supposed to be a Lib / Lab stitch-up of the Nats. If both Westminster and Edinburgh Labour hadn't fluffed it up so badly, that might still be the case. Luckily, politics is more random than any politician hopes for!

cheerio grimly.

― byebyepride, Friday, 4 May 2007 11:15 (eighteen years ago)

Bloody awful for the greens sadly, They reckon they'll be down to 2 or 3 :-(

― The Boyler, Friday, 4 May 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

That's effectively it, I think. SNP have a two seat lead with only Highlands & Islands list votes to declare - 2003 saw a 2 SNP/2 Lab representation, Lab vote -6% or thereabouts in the constituency voting this year.

― aldo, Friday, 4 May 2007 16:35 (eighteen years ago)

SNP Win!! By one seat.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

GET THE FUCK IN! GET THE FUCK IN! GET THE <B>FUCK</B> IN!!!!!!!

oh, this is fucking, fucking, fucking WONDERFUL.

holy shit!

get IN!

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:31 (eighteen years ago)

goddamn bbcode etc

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:31 (eighteen years ago)

I think Simon is happy.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:32 (eighteen years ago)

i was actually drinking champagne before i heard the news. (i'm louche like that.) now i'm drinking champagne with a purpose.

obviously, there's horse-trading and fannying about to be done, and nothing - nothing! - is certain. but OH HAPPY DAY!

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:38 (eighteen years ago)

i wonder if arch bigot, homophobic scumbag, brian souter's monster donation helped at all.

― stirmonster, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

probably.

that's my bubble slightly dented.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 17:48 (eighteen years ago)

But there's no guarantee the SNP will get to form a government or that Salmond will be first minister. It's quite likely but there's all sorts of shit that could go down now. No combination of any two parties has an overall majority so this will be a long messy parliamentary session whatever happens.

― byebyepride, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:20 (eighteen years ago)

So in what sense have they 'won' yet?

― byebyepride, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:21 (eighteen years ago)

xpost: because they got the most votes, dude. that is, basically, a win.

i'm now thinking this through and i have NO IDEA how this is going to work. my natural pessimism leads me to fear all manner of stitch-ups. salmond is on the BBC live now ...

... "something has changed in scotland fundamentally ... it will not be talked down to any more" ...

yes, absolutely ...

... "progressive coalition", he says. would he abandon the referendum plan in order to coalesce with the libdems? something about letting the parties who "haven't done as well" take time to decide ... asked twice but didn't actually say NO ... so they're obviously angling for an SNP/libdem coalition but on whose terms?

in fairness: the referendum, as i said above, would mean jack shit.

ach. fuck it. scotland has spoken. the key thing here is that it feels like a change; a subtle yet seismic shift.

i'm off to eat, drink and be merry.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:21 (eighteen years ago)

so this will be a long messy parliamentary session

qf fucking t.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:22 (eighteen years ago)

(sorry, i'm still here ...) it's all going to come down to the referendum, and the wording thereof. semantics will be key.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:39 (eighteen years ago)

tonight i will have nightmares about ...

http://www.gourmetfoodmall.com/merchants/Scotti01/PC1SF3.jpg

http://www.ukcornershoppe.com/imgs/products/scottish%2520fudge.jpg

http://www.kilts.com/scot%2520fudge%2520bar.jpg

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:42 (eighteen years ago)

ah jesus. that's the converter's fault. no, really.

http://www.kilts.com/scot%20fudge%20bar.jpg

[img[Removed Illegal Link]

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:44 (eighteen years ago)

NO ILLEGAL LINKS IN AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND!

hic.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 4 May 2007 18:45 (eighteen years ago)

The SNP were smart with their ballot paper wording. Instead of X-ing "SNP" people were X-ing "Alex Salmond for First Minister" so any Lib-Lab shenanigans to keep Jack in power would be a rejection of Teh Peepell Have Spoken.

― onimo, Friday, 4 May 2007 20:56 (eighteen years ago)

They're lucky his first name isn't Zebediah.

― Madchen, Friday, 4 May 2007 22:09 (eighteen years ago)

Nicola Sturgeon: "There will be an independence referendum if there is an SNP government. But during the campaign we have indicated areas for possible compromise. For example, the possibility of a multi-option referendum has been discussed.

http://www.gourmetfoodmall.com/merchants/Scotti01/PC1SF3.jpg

― onimo, Saturday, 5 May 2007 09:13 (eighteen years ago)

Alex Salmond makes my soul shiver. What a cock. He's goin' to be all over my tellyz from here on out. Damn.

― Gukbe, Saturday, 5 May 2007 10:40 (eighteen years ago)

DONT LEAVE US HERE ALONE IN PERMA-TORY ENGLAND YOU FUCKERS

― Noodle Vague, Saturday, 5 May 2007 10:50 (eighteen years ago)

I'm just astonished that my tactical SNP vote in the (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) constituency didn't manage to shift the Tory MSP we've got at the moment. Not only did we need just 99 votes to get him out, and failed to do that, the Tory increased his majority to over 3000 votes.

And the SNP (a.k.a, Scottish fascist party) have seemingly taken over.

Bugger.

― AndyTheScot, Saturday, 5 May 2007 11:00 (eighteen years ago)

not fascists! just naive.

― Gukbe, Saturday, 5 May 2007 11:03 (eighteen years ago)

Naively believing that the Labour Party are scum.

― Noodle Vague, Saturday, 5 May 2007 11:06 (eighteen years ago)

haha the next few years are going to be crazy both sides of the border.

― That one guy that quit, Saturday, 5 May 2007 11:11 (eighteen years ago)

I do get worried by people who vote for the SNP. It isn't that their policies are necessarily bad (though they're not very convincing as of yet), it's just that they have a goodly number of people that the whole anti-English crap will appeal to (the morons). Worse than that, SNP voters yesterday: "I don't like Labour, they want to drag us into Europe." Oh dear oh dear.

― Gukbe, Saturday, 5 May 2007 11:12 (eighteen years ago)

Every party attracts its morons, but plenty of English people living in Scotland have voted SNP (such as our own Grimly Fiendish), Scotland's first Asian MSP is SNP, and the SNP have been openly pro-European for years.

― Stew, Saturday, 5 May 2007 12:17 (eighteen years ago)

I know the SNP isn't racist, or specifically anti-English or anything, which is why I've never hated them. A goodly amount of their hopes for Scottish independence hinges on the EU, which I don't think is as strong as it needs to be.

I think the problem with the SNP, as far as attracting morons goes, is the automatic "we hate the English for doing blah blah blah" vote, which is a stupid position to have anyway. It isn't unlike a lot of republican voters in the states, who know or care nothing about their economic policy, but vote that way because it is the Christian party.

A lot riding on the oil now, which I don't think will go their way.

― Gukbe, Saturday, 5 May 2007 14:14 (eighteen years ago)

what oil?

― RJG, Saturday, 5 May 2007 16:44 (eighteen years ago)

you know, that oil.

― Gukbe, Saturday, 5 May 2007 17:17 (eighteen years ago)

gukbe, your arguments - esp "aka scottish fascist party" - seem to be based on a conception of the SNP circa 1979.

furthermore, you can't say something like this:

Worse than that, SNP voters yesterday: "I don't like Labour, they want to drag us into Europe"

and expect to be taken seriously. which voters? where? how many of them? two? two hundred? all of them except me?

a plentiful number of idiots - some of them rabidly anti-english, some of them rabidly anti-europe, some of them rabidly anti-equality (hello, mr souter) - will have voted for the SNP, just as a plentiful number of idiots will have voted for whichever party you voted for.

however: i wonder how many of these idiots are so idiotic that they would seemingly tag all the "people who vote for" for another party - one they happened to dislike - with the same brush.

― grimly fiendish, Saturday, 5 May 2007 17:36 (eighteen years ago)

(or, indeed, would manage to duplicate the word "for" in an ILX post. curses.)

― grimly fiendish, Saturday, 5 May 2007 17:44 (eighteen years ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6629093.stm

So, Labour's Alan Wilson is considering contesting the vote. He lost by 49 so is obviously trying to make something of the spoiled papers. But how can he prove anything? It seems the fucked up papers affected all the parties evenly. And if he challenges then surely everyone can?
Labour are desperate, and it's not surprise to see Wilson, a nasty piece of work if his "attempted rape" comments re an SNP/Green coaltion are anything to go by, playing dirty.

― Stew, Saturday, 5 May 2007 22:00 (eighteen years ago)

woah woah woah. i wasn't saying all voters for the SNP, nor was i saying the SNP was like that. In fact, I said that the SNP wasn't like that, and that I don't hate the SNP.

Of course idiots voted for all parties. I just think the SNP attracts a portion of the idiots based on a bullshit ideology that I believe is a problem in Scotland. Not its biggest, nor its most pressing, but a problem that seems to get propogated somehow in some circles.

Wasn't meaning to be offensive. It's just an aspect (of any Nationalist party, really) that I don't like. I also did say "as far as attracting morons", which was intended to specify the type of voter I was referring to, as it was already established that "morons" vote for every party.

I might be just letting all those things from over the years, like the (presumably drunk) guy on Byres Road a few hours ago shouting, "SNP! Fuck the English!" Not that I expect much different on an Old Firm day in Glasgow.

Of course, I didn't vote, so I suppose my opinion means nothing.

― Gukbe, Saturday, 5 May 2007 23:04 (eighteen years ago)

and that I don't hate the SNP.

i do.

― stirmonster, Sunday, 6 May 2007 01:46 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think the SNP are going to do what they say they are, as I don't think they'll get the resources.

I also don't think Scotland should leave the UK, and if they do, it wouldn't be remotely reasonable to do so for until 10-15 years at least.

Though personally, I get the impression that, what with Scotland's declining population/etc..., that if the Scotland did become independent, I can use my family ties to get citizenship, which is sort of my goal in life at the moment.

― Gukbe, Sunday, 6 May 2007 03:00 (eighteen years ago)

i don't really get how scotland could become independent just by voting itself out of the union in a referendum -- would it not have to be ratified by (london) parliament?

― That one guy that quit, Sunday, 6 May 2007 09:43 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, but if the London Parliament refused to accept the will of the Scottish people it would face a revolt.

― onimo, Sunday, 6 May 2007 10:48 (eighteen years ago)

yikes

― That one guy that quit, Sunday, 6 May 2007 11:15 (eighteen years ago)

We need a parody thread called "the early days of a benter nation" but what could it be about?

― Noodle Vague, Sunday, 6 May 2007 11:19 (eighteen years ago)

yikes

Don't worry we rarely make it past Yorkshire without getting bored.

― onimo, Sunday, 6 May 2007 11:26 (eighteen years ago)

last time you made it all the way down to Derby. I call that progress.

― Gukbe, Sunday, 6 May 2007 18:00 (eighteen years ago)

[stale, muddy and unpleasantly sticky scottish fudge.jpg]

― grimly fiendish, Monday, 7 May 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)

whoa whoa whoa -- it's totally justified and not-at-all opportunist to ask for a recount when there are gazillions of spoiled ballots and only 49 votes separating you from the winner!

― sean gramophone, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 03:46 (eighteen years ago)

whoa whoa whoa ... who's saying it isn't?

but if there's a recount in cunninghame north, there needs to be a recount across the board. hellfire: there's an increasingly strong argument for saying we should just do the whole thing again.

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 08:20 (eighteen years ago)

can the people who like the SNP and the people who don't like the SNP spell out why, for this American? it's difficult for me to get a grip on their ambitions and their policy beyond the single issue of the referendum. are they more "progressive" than the scottish labour party or less? i was surprised to see how many points of disagreement there are between the SNP and the greens, for instance. i'd always thought of the SNP as being left-wing.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:09 (eighteen years ago)

by the way i have sat in the same tiny room with nicola sturgeon before. i introduced myself and she didn't even look me in the eye. later i heard some gossip about her which was unflattering.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:10 (eighteen years ago)

Nicola Sturgeon = THE DEVIL INCARNATE

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:11 (eighteen years ago)

SNP = so-called progressive left party that has traditionally relied on a lot of narrow-minded bigoted Tory wankers to vote for it, look at where their parliamentary seats are

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:14 (eighteen years ago)

wait i thought that was the lib dems!

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:40 (eighteen years ago)

Think Lib Dem but more so!

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:45 (eighteen years ago)

They were certainly always referred to as the Tartan Tories when I was at school.

― aldo, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:53 (eighteen years ago)

it's just hard for me to understand that. nothing like that exists in the US. a progressive party that's voted for by tories? i don't get it.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:54 (eighteen years ago)

What's hard to understand? It's a Nationalist party, it wants independence for Scotland, if you want that you vote for them (or if you just hate the English)

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:59 (eighteen years ago)

That seems quite simple!

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 11:00 (eighteen years ago)

Some examples of the SNP being left-wing:

Fergus Ewing MSP supporting Firefighters who refused to hand out leaflets at a gay pride rally. He also abstained from voting on the repeal of section 28 (as did his father Winnie).

Roseanna Cunningham MSP on gay adoption suggestion that she represented the majority of Scottish voters in that she advised that she did not see 'how overturning tens of thousands of years of nature's design moves us forward.'

Accepting £500k from pro-section 28 campaigner Brian Souter.

― onimo, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 11:01 (eighteen years ago)

The Ewings have always been right-wing

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 11:02 (eighteen years ago)

... that's the ones in Dallas and the ones in Moray & Nairn

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 11:03 (eighteen years ago)

well Tom D. i guess i'm just thick.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 11:06 (eighteen years ago)

Winnie is a girls name.

― *rumpie*, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 12:57 (eighteen years ago)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Winston_Churchill.jpg/300px-Winston_Churchill.jpg

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 12:59 (eighteen years ago)

Nu Labour = so-called progressive left party that has traditionally relied on a lot of narrow-minded bigoted Tory wankers to vote for it, look at where their parliamentary seats are

Fixed.

― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 13:12 (eighteen years ago)

It's a Nationalist party, it wants independence for Scotland, if you want that you vote for them (or if you just hate the English)

this is a little disingenuous and deeply reductive, and does rather ignore some of the subtleties of this particular election campaign.

tracer: the SNP vote can roughly be divided into three categories: old-school "FREEDOOOOOOOM" nutters who hate england and everything it stands for (a minority, and far less vocal than they used to be); those (such as myself) who believe that the fundamental differences (economic, social, you name it) between scotland and england (the south of it, anyway) are rapidly becoming insurmountable, that the union is a hindrance for everyone, and that independence - although hellishly risky - would be a boon for both scotland and england; and people who aren't desperately convinced about independence but realise that there's quite a long way to go before we actually have to worry about it and simply want to get labour out of power for any one of about 100 equally valid reasons.

ten years ago, when i moved here, i couldn't understand why so many decent, reasonable people nailed their colours to a nationalist mast; nationalism, to me, was abhorrent in all its forms. it's taken me a long time to understand the issues involved, and the changing of my mind has been a long, slow process.

the snp website should give you a clearer idea of what their particular brand of nationalism (a word i still dislike, intensely) entails. above and beyond that, seek out the many writings of ian bell in the herald and sunday herald for the most eloquent and intelligent pro-independence arguments in the current debate.

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:45 (eighteen years ago)

If you want independence for Scotland, you vote SNP, what's reductiove about that?

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:50 (eighteen years ago)

I voted SNP and I'm pretty much agnostic about independence.

― treefell, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:53 (eighteen years ago)

Yes but if you were pro-indepence, you would vote SNP?

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:54 (eighteen years ago)

This is true

― treefell, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

Well, that's all I'm saying, and that's how to explain "Tory wankers" voting for a left-leaning party like the SNP

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 14:57 (eighteen years ago)

although hellishly risky

This is the bit that isn't explored deeply enough for me - taking such hellish risks with a country just to give Labour a kick up the arse seems, er, hellish risky to me.

there's quite a long way to go before we actually have to worry about it

SNP promised a referendum within 4 years. I know a week is a long time in politics but 4 years is fuck all in the history of a country.

― onimo, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:01 (eighteen years ago)

does the SNP fancy itself "pulling an Ireland" in the not too distant future?

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

i'd also like to know why certain people i respect - like stirmonster - hate the SNP

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think it's that risky, Scotland has a lot more going for it economically than Ireland ever had. Plus no country in Western Europe, esp. one in the EU, is ever going to go bankrupt or whatever.

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:17 (eighteen years ago)

i'd also like to know why certain people i respect - like stirmonster - hate the SNP

No doubt for many of the reasons given in this thread!

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:18 (eighteen years ago)

SNP promised a referendum within 4 years

which they won't get, because they'll either come to a deal with the libdems (all the cock-waving at the moment is just that: cock-waving) or they'll be running a minority administration so the referendum bill will be voted down.

furthermore: as outlined above, it would only be a pretendy referendum. which i very much doubt would show a victory for independence anyway.

i do think there'll be an independent scotland in my lifetime. but only just. we are a LONG way from it right now.

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:23 (eighteen years ago)

Not so long, when Cameron trounces Brown in the next General Election

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:24 (eighteen years ago)

... that could be the catalyst

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

see, i'm not entirely convinced that's going to happen either (see UK politics threads passim). but if it does, yes: everything will change apace.

kinda ironic that a unionist party could predicate the break-up of britain before a separatist one got the chance :)

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)

They showed all 14 hours of the BBC's Election 97 programme yesterday and the parallels between then and now are uncanny

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)

"pulling an ireland" is not possible. 1) the EU would never pump billions into scotland like it did in ireland, especially now that there are lots of new EU members who need investment. 2) scotland has the highest % of the poulation employed in the public sector of any country in the world. if we became independent, taxes would have to be increased greatly which would be a major disincentive to investment in scotland.

the nats economic policy is bewildering. mr. salmond worked as an oil economist yet his economic policy seems to be based on 1970s oil projections. scotland is now a net importer of oil. oil revenues are all but over.

as for hating the snp - i'm an internationalist. i don't believe in nationalism one iota. i think in this day and age it is an outdated, small minded attitude. whilst i appreciate that it is a small minority of scots who hate the english, even that amount of xenophobia is too much for me to bear. recently being told by an idiotic nat that i was a disgrace to my nation for not agreeing with nationalism still makes me laugh.

i don't think the snp knows the meaning of the term social justice and the party seems to openly welcome narrow minded, right wing bigots. i don't think they could run a jumble sale, let alone a nation and i think scotland being independent would be a disaster on so many levels that it scares the living daylights out of me even contemplating it.

however, one tiny chink in my anti-independence armour might be the fact that if scotland were to become independent, we might once again have a proper socialist party that is pragmatic enough to run a nation but doesn't sell out it's socialist ideals. but, if the snp were in charge of an independent scotland, i'd be heading for the hills.

― stirmonster, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)

) the EU would never pump billions into scotland like it did in ireland, especially now that there are lots of new EU members who need investment

Don't agree. Being a small nation is the best way to get anything out of being a member of the EU. I hate Scottish Nationalism too but I think the further away Scotland is from Middle England and the values of Middle England, the better. I would worry more about England than Scotland after Scottish independence, much more

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)

i thnk if the scottish border was redrawn so it stopped just north of nottingham i'd be much more in favour of independence.

― stirmonster, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:41 (eighteen years ago)

So, instead, let's all get used to right wing, free market neo-liberalism in a United Kingdom, 'cos that's all we're ever going to get

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:45 (eighteen years ago)

i thnk if the scottish border was redrawn so it stopped just north of nottingham i'd be much more in favour of independence

i really do think you might be on to something ...

― grimly fiendish, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 15:50 (eighteen years ago)

stirmonster thanks! the twisty accretions of scottish politics may seem plain as day to those of you who live through and under them, but others of us need our hands held a little. it sounds to me like one of the things you're saying, stirmonster, is that the SNP has consciously cut deals with some unsavoury constituencies in order to bolster its electoral power - and at this point those constituencies have become an entrenched part of the SNP base?

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 16:04 (eighteen years ago)

which they won't get, because they'll either come to a deal with the libdems (all the cock-waving at the moment is just that: cock-waving) or they'll be running a minority administration so the referendum bill will be voted down.

furthermore: as outlined above, it would only be a pretendy referendum. which i very much doubt would show a victory for independence anyway.

Seems to me you're voting for something that you don't believe will happen on the assumption that those you vote for will break their promises. Makes a refreshing change from voting, er, no wait...

― onimo, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

the SNP has consciously cut deals with some unsavoury constituencies in order to bolster its electoral power - and at this point those constituencies have become an entrenched part of the SNP base?

Not really, because the SNP was never a left wing party to begin with, it only started to move (slowly) to the left in 70s & 80s, largely when disaffected Labour politicians (like Jim Sillars) started joining and they realised that relying on Highland farmers for their votes was never going to get them anywhere. So they tried (with not that much success) to appeal more to the urban working class. Electorally, the traditional SNP base is right wing, "Tartan Tories".

― Tom D., Tuesday, 8 May 2007 16:16 (eighteen years ago)

aha. ok.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

woah woah woah woah woah. woooah woahh.

grimly, you should link to some of the actual articles on the herald website about independence. I read one or two some time ago, but wasn't convinced.

i also love the fact that you gave the same argument i did, despite the fact that you were calling me an "idiot" for saying it. woah woah woah indeed. clever man.

― Gukbe, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 02:15 (eighteen years ago)

i also love the fact that you gave the same argument i did, despite the fact that you were calling me an "idiot" for saying it. woah woah woah indeed. clever man.

eh? which argument of the many on this thread are we talking about?

i'm going to assume you're talking about my post of 3.45pm yesterday. i have never, at any point, denied that a substantial number of SNP voters will be cocks. the difference is that you appeared to be saying "all SNP voters think this". which, in fairness, you stopped doing quite quickly.

if you actually explained what you were talking about, rather than just making vague assertions in your posts ("SNP voters yesterday", "the same argument i did"), we might get somewhere.

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 10:28 (eighteen years ago)

re-reading the one post that particularly annoyed me:

I do get worried by people who vote for the SNP

a slightly sweeping statement, no?

it's just that they have a goodly number of people that the whole anti-English crap will appeal to (the morons).

okay, i accept you qualified this with "goodly number", but this makes it sound like it's the SNP peddling "anti-english crap", not people who spout anti-english crap voting SNP (which is more the case, no? the bill wilsons of this world aside.)

Worse than that, SNP voters yesterday: "I don't like Labour, they want to drag us into Europe." Oh dear oh dear.

this, as i've said, is the bit that really got me. but hey, we've done this already.

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 10:32 (eighteen years ago)

People don't stay "centre-left" for long when they smell money and power

― onimo, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 10:41 (eighteen years ago)

heh. the comments on that are particularly interesting.

weird story, that one: it seemed to die out very quickly. i was going to mention it above, but decided not to :)

― grimly fiendish, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 10:50 (eighteen years ago)

I like this thread.

― treefell, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 10:58 (eighteen years ago)

heh. the comments on that are particularly interesting.

Aye, 48 short planks throwing buns at each other and claiming everyone involved is a party activist.

Re-regulation was a nationalist manifesto commitment in 2003. At the 2006 conference the following motion was passed:

The SNP recognises the failures of bus deregulation across Scotland and reiterates its support for re-regulation of Scotland's buses. Since deregulation, passenger numbers have fallen and many essential services on less profitable routes have been cut.

A system of re-regulation will aim to simplify ticketing, halt the system of several companies competing for passengers on the same route and increase overall passenger numbers.

The SNP calls for an integrated public transport system for all modes of public transport in Scotland which will reverse the trends of deregulation – ultimately providing a world-leading and affordable transport system for Scotland's people and tourists alike.

The 2007 SNP manifesto gibbers about park and ride and "integrated transport policy" (like that isn't a commitment of everyone since deregulation, coz it basically means fuck all except pissing around with timetables).

― onimo, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 11:04 (eighteen years ago)

Aw shit, I didn't realise they were financed by that cnut from Stagecoach. That's Blairite levels of getting in bed with Beelzebub, there.

― Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 12:22 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, there's no right wing labour mp's are there....

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 12:30 (eighteen years ago)

That good old left wing New Labour Party.

― Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 12:31 (eighteen years ago)

I don't see anyone claiming nuLab is a bastion of Socialism Kerr.

― onimo, Wednesday, 9 May 2007 12:44 (eighteen years ago)

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