is it wrong to hate toffs?

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most people i know seem to hate roy from the apprentice mainly cos he seemed to be a bit of a arrogant tosser but mostly cos he was a toff (the perception of all toffs as being arrogant probably had something to do with this aswell). is this wrong?

― titchyschneiderMk2, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:40 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, ILX's track record on discussing class issues is almost as good as its track record on discussiong race!

― Masonic Boom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:41 (eighteen years ago)

fuck the poshos

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:42 (eighteen years ago)

smash the oinks!

― Ste, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:43 (eighteen years ago)

What Will Change If David Cameron Gets In?

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:43 (eighteen years ago)

what is the one thing you need to be a toff? it's not money.

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:43 (eighteen years ago)

ENTITLEMENT.

― CharlieNo4, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:44 (eighteen years ago)

that sense of entitlement does bug me a lot, i confess.

― titchyschneiderMk2, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:45 (eighteen years ago)

Of course it's not. Always good to see ILX's priveleged few turn up and try and compare their ridiculously sheltered and protective lives with 2,000 years of white on black oppression though. Perhaps if Kunta Kinte had been given piano lessons at an early age things would have worked out better for him?

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:45 (eighteen years ago)

ENTITLEMENT

I disagree. More than anything else, it's accent and haircut.

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:50 (eighteen years ago)

you can be a toff and have 'anime hair' now i reckon.

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:52 (eighteen years ago)

roy from the apprentice

who the fuck was ro ... oh! rory.

it was nothing to do with him being a toff. it was to do with him being a prick.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:54 (eighteen years ago)

what is a toff? a person with money, a person with money and a certain background or a person with money a certain background and a certain lifestyle?

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:55 (eighteen years ago)

someone who says 'noses' like 'nooozes'

― titchyschneiderMk2, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:56 (eighteen years ago)

so it's accent, haircut and...chin?

― CharlieNo4, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:58 (eighteen years ago)

is a toff the same as a sloane?

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:58 (eighteen years ago)

fuck the poshos and anyone who pretends or aspires to be one

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:59 (eighteen years ago)

I am confused.

In his Diaries Alan Clark berates Michael Heseltine as a nouveau riche upstart on the grounds that he "buys his own furniture."

Yet on his Radio 1 Rap Show a few weeks ago Tim Westwood confessed that he never bought his own furniture.

I am aware that Tim Westwood is the son of the Archbishop of Peterborough.

But does this mean he is a toff?

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 3 May 2007 10:59 (eighteen years ago)

sounds like it, doesn't it?

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:01 (eighteen years ago)

I mean, doesn't he?

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:01 (eighteen years ago)

Some toffs are quaite naice, in my experience

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:02 (eighteen years ago)

westwood is worse - he's an ersatz posh slummer

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:02 (eighteen years ago)

But does this mean he is a toff?

no. he's also a prick.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:03 (eighteen years ago)

I heard corpses decomposing on Saturday night

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:04 (eighteen years ago)

westwood is worse - he's an ersatz posh slummer

his mum Vyv would turn in 'er grave

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:06 (eighteen years ago)

There's an army of Tim Westwoods running the urban music industry in the UK at the moment (not at top level, but as gig organizers, club owners, PRs and the like), and the funny thing is they all hate Tim Westwood. He who battles monsters...

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:06 (eighteen years ago)

This is one of the reasons everyone hates the Britishes.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:08 (eighteen years ago)

DID ROBIN CARMODY DIE IN VAIN?

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:08 (eighteen years ago)

Just out of interest, how many ILxors actually do buy, or have bought, their own furniture?

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:10 (eighteen years ago)

i mainly go to IKEA for the 75p hot dogs but yes, i have purchased furniture.

― stevie, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:11 (eighteen years ago)

I recently had to buy a bed and a shelving unit. If you move somewhere that is 'semi-furnished', you need somewhere to sleep and put yr stuff.

― braveclub, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:13 (eighteen years ago)

I have also bought furniture. I also say toilet and mirror. How terribly middle class.

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:14 (eighteen years ago)

I always go for fully furnished when I move house. Due to move again in September; I suspect we'll need to purchase an awful lot of shelving, though.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:16 (eighteen years ago)

I'm assuming toffs have no need of shelving

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:18 (eighteen years ago)

What's the alternative to 'mirror'?

― braveclub, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:18 (eighteen years ago)

i work with a female toff (toffess?). i find her unwavering arrogance and air of superiority incredibly hard to stomach. i told her she was stuck up once but she said it was just an act. like fuck it was.

― titchyschneiderMk2, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:18 (eighteen years ago)

What's the alternative to 'mirror'?

Looking glass or, merely, glass

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:19 (eighteen years ago)

When Kim Wilde brushes her teeth, does she accidentally splash water on glass?

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:26 (eighteen years ago)

Just out of interest, how many ILxors actually do buy, or have bought, their own furniture?

Worse even: my parents bought antique furniture. roffle.

― nathalie, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:29 (eighteen years ago)

was it an antique looking glass?

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:31 (eighteen years ago)

Just out of interest, how many ILxors actually do buy, or have bought, their own furniture?

waves cheerily, like a girl

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:36 (eighteen years ago)

Cameron and his toff mates in that club.gif?

― Ned Trifle II, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:48 (eighteen years ago)

http://rafaelbehr.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bully_1.jpg

Never gets old.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 11:50 (eighteen years ago)

neither does bloody boris.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:02 (eighteen years ago)

Just skimmed this article to try and figure out what a "toff" is (think I have that sort of figured out), but now I'm confused. Who the hell doesn't own their own furniture?? Is this a British thing? Is there something implicit in saying someone owns their own furniture that I'm not getting? What's the alternative--renting? borrowing?

― Jesse, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:11 (eighteen years ago)

inheriting

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:12 (eighteen years ago)

Buying your own furniture, not owning it

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:12 (eighteen years ago)

Ooooh!

― Jesse, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:15 (eighteen years ago)

OK, so to sum up: toffs are upper-crust who inherit furniture and the bourgeoisie buy it. I don't know of a single person I've known or known of in my 31 years (in the US) who has inherited enough furniture to put together a home. Maybe 1 or 2 pieces, and sometimes a couch that would be considered more a hand-me-down than something inherited. By these standards I deem America not toff.

― Jesse, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:20 (eighteen years ago)

The whole thing about not buying furniture is a red herring. It's of another era, and not at all relevant to the toffs of today.

― underpants of the gods, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:22 (eighteen years ago)

Why Alan Clark didn't need to buy his onw furniture:

The Clark Family:
The history of the cotton spol trade is synonymous with the Clark family. In 1753, William Clark, a farmer at Dykebar, died, leaving a large family.

Too young to work the farm, they took employment in nearby Paisley. One son, James Clark, set up business in Cotton Street as a weavers furnisher and heddle twine maker. The heddles were made of fine silk, as that part had to be very smooth.

The supply of silk from Europe dried up, due, in the main, to Napoleons famous Berlin decree in 1806. This predicament caused James Clarks brother, Patrick, to turn his attention to perfecting a smooth, fine, cotton thread to supersede silk.

The new product was first marketed in 1812. Operating as J&J Clark, the brothers erected a factory at Seedhill. James Clark is credited with the invention of the wooden spool or bobbin. His customers were charged a half-penny for the spool. This was refundable when the empty spool was returned to him. Up to that time, thread was sold in hanks or skeins.

Robert Paul, his wood turner, set up his shop where the Town Hall now stands. The Seedhill Mills continued to prosper under the Clark family. Most of the factory output was for the home market, although they later erected a large mill at Newark, New Jersey. The company adopted the anchor trademark to thwart their imitators. They formed a limited liability company in 1896 and amalgamated with their arch rivals J & P Coats, that same year

Very upper crust

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:24 (eighteen years ago)

... so, theoretically, Alan Clark's forebears had my forebears working 18 hours a day in a textile mill

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:25 (eighteen years ago)

Is this a British thing?

Yep. It's a British class thing that us foreigners will never understand.

― StanM, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:27 (eighteen years ago)

no aristrocrats in europe

― Frogman Henry, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:28 (eighteen years ago)

Alan Clark's forebears:-

http://www.highlights.com/images/us/local/products/detail/007638.jpg

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:29 (eighteen years ago)

xp
or history of such

― Frogman Henry, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:29 (eighteen years ago)

i dunno oligarchys and shitty networking is still all go but do the old signifiers still matter that much? sure, who yr daddy knows is still important and how much money you have still matters but the fact ethno-rahs exist, in such great numbers, surely is some proof that the old standards are no longer really there.

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:29 (eighteen years ago)

Yep. It's a British class thing that us foreigners will never understand.

Roffle. Yes, we mainlanders won't ever understand those quaint Britishers. ;-)

― nathalie, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:32 (eighteen years ago)

it's more the external signifiers that point to toffdom - hence the comments on hair and particularly accent
(It really riles me when toffs say "I have no/a neutral accent" as if they don't realise how peculiarly they speak.)

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:33 (eighteen years ago)

"Ethno-rahs"? I understand Giles Coren is writing a column about them for Saturday's Times.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:36 (eighteen years ago)

is a "rah" the same as a "toff" though?

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:39 (eighteen years ago)

yeh but i think concentrating on this idea of "toffs" is odd. i mean as dom pointed out uk hip hop and i am reliably informed the drum and bass scene is full of people from these sort of backgrounds. is that a good thing? i dunno, realizing that high tory aristocratic idelas aren't so hot is good i guess but it's not like wealth get re-distributed cos some harrow dude likes dillinja.

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:39 (eighteen years ago)

Like anything the 'old standards' have been reduced to a series of visual and behavioural signifiers, which denote the 'old standards' without having their actual substance (whether that substance is knowledge or finance or whatever).

Is it wrong to hate toffs? It's wrong to sweepingly hate any 'type' of person except 'unpleasant people'. Not all toffs are unpleasant and not all unpleasant people are toffs, but there is certainly an overlap in my experience.

― Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:40 (eighteen years ago)

whats the point behind saying that toffs are all over the urban music industry? theyre all over MOST industries.

― titchyschneiderMk2, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:40 (eighteen years ago)

A 'rah' is a toff who fights when drunk. A 'sloane' is a toff with a jumper. These are just observations from the heart of the beast.

― Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:41 (eighteen years ago)

well the point is i dunno 30 maybe even 20 years ago it would have been unthinkable

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:42 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:42 (eighteen years ago)

They're _is_ a different between a toff and a rah, I think a rah has something more... self-conscious about it. They're deliberately playing the role of pig-nosed spendthrift. Toffs are more organic.

xxxp

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:42 (eighteen years ago)

so toff is old money and rah is new money?

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:44 (eighteen years ago)

and sloane is abhorrent?

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:44 (eighteen years ago)

nicer than bloody streatham!

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:46 (eighteen years ago)

Well, I would set up a thread asking "Nouveau riche: your reasons why they are so bad and so hated", but surely we can answer that here as well?

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:46 (eighteen years ago)

I mean hating nouveau riche = hating chavs taken to its logical extreme?

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:47 (eighteen years ago)

What was Footballers Wives if not one lengthy Rick James-esque howl of "They shoulda never given you n*ggas money"?

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:47 (eighteen years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloane_Ranger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Tories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_fogey

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:48 (eighteen years ago)

Daily Mail readers, though.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:49 (eighteen years ago)

Young Fogey has come back in a big big way recently. I mean, the dress code described in that article is basically yr common-or-garden Kaiser Chiefs get up, correct? Plus, as I've discussed before on the "Politics of Twee" thread, I do honestly believe that The Chap is the most dangerous magazine currently available.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:52 (eighteen years ago)

It's more *reactionary* than the Mail or the Express, irregardless of how much they're pretending that all of their claims are ironic.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:52 (eighteen years ago)

Or, to put it another way, at least Vice combine being a bunch of racist fucks with half-decent writing.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:52 (eighteen years ago)

nah kaiser chiefs kids are, in general terms, lower middle class rather than upper middle / high like da young fogeys.

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 12:57 (eighteen years ago)

No, I agree completely, but they're obviously taking their cues from that "look", and where fashion starts ideology follows.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:00 (eighteen years ago)

also kaiser chiefs themselves are red herring. surely their key constiuency are late 20s, early 30s people who have long since grown out of tribal identification. paul connoly recently congratulated the chiefs on being one of the most politically savvy bands out there... yr politics of twee stuff was more about retro cute stuff thou wasn't it?

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:11 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, 60-year-old Associated Newspapers employee Paul Connolly who this week claimed to have invented the term "poptimism."

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:12 (eighteen years ago)

their riot song seems to sound v fogeyish, no?

― RJG, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:13 (eighteen years ago)

fogeyish, yes. young, less so.

Paul Connolly is 60? where did he come from? i don't remember ever seeing him when i read q/nme/mojo.

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:15 (eighteen years ago)

Paul Connolly is the one who looks like N*ck S*uthall's creepy uncle, yes?

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:16 (eighteen years ago)

paul is in his early 40s, i think...

― stevie, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:17 (eighteen years ago)

No doubt he's a Real Journalist Who Can Construct A Proper Article, Not Like Those Self-Indulgent Unedited Envious Bloggers (c) Michael Hann, 2007.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:18 (eighteen years ago)

My actual creepy uncle sold steel tubes to Iraq in the late 80s.

― Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:20 (eighteen years ago)

Does he think Scooby Pip and Daniel Sac are a groundbreaking act of heart-rending genius?

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:21 (eighteen years ago)

I quite like the Chap.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:21 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.paulconnolly.co.uk/

AWESOME WEBPAGE, A+++, WOULD VISIST AGAIN

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:22 (eighteen years ago)

I quite like the Chap.

You should read the awesome article by Dom Passantino about Aristasia in the May 2006 issue of Bizarre Magazine that casually mentions the actually proven link between The Chap and the British National Party.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:23 (eighteen years ago)

I have no idea. He's a 70+ year-old Yorkshireman called Eric, so it's doubtful.

Lots of Xs.

The ChapSoc at Exeter Uni is... interesting.

― Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:25 (eighteen years ago)

Actually actually proven or not-really actually proven?

(This is actual curiosity, I'm not being facetious for once)

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:26 (eighteen years ago)

a little bit of politics in Bizarre? i had no idea

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:28 (eighteen years ago)

the "cult of Boris", surely more than the chap, is a big sign that being a reactionarry twat in a rugby shirt is an acceptable lifestyle option.

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:29 (eighteen years ago)

OK, the former (maybe current, I'm not sure) female fashion correspondant for The Chap was (maybe is) a woman called Miss Marianne Martindale (http://www.wildfireclub.co.uk/Marianne.html). Martindale is also the most famous adherent (some would say leader) to the lesbian seperatist cult of Aristasia, a group of sun goddess worshippers who refuse to engage with any culture post 1958. One of the main symbols of Aristasia is the Cross of Odin, which, as you all know, has some... loaded meanings.

Anyway, Martindale, as well as having a conviction for actually bodily harm from beating unconscious one of her servants with a birch, was also best friends with a Mr John Tyndall, the former National Front chairman, and founder and original leader of the British National Party.

That's the summary, anyway. It runs deeper.

― Dom Passantino, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:30 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.boris-johnson.com/photos/boriswithladies.jpg

cakeface

― braveclub, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:31 (eighteen years ago)

ha ha boris. if ony hitler (lol godwins) had had a cuddly, bumbling sidekick.

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:33 (eighteen years ago)

Goering was quite cuddly

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:34 (eighteen years ago)

So, a former and perhaps current fashion correspondent being friendly with a BNP bigwig = "proven link between The Chap and the British National Party"? The Guardian once published an op-ed piece by Osama bin Laden, I guess that's a proven link between Al Qaeda and the Guardian.

― underpants of the gods, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:44 (eighteen years ago)

well M3lanhead Ph1llips has been saying that for 5 years now.

― blueski, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:45 (eighteen years ago)

The Guardian once published an op-ed piece by Osama bin Laden
Is this true? Where can I read it?

― Ned Trifle II, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:53 (eighteen years ago)

a lot of companies are queasy about employing people with links to far right groups i imagine.

― acrobat, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:54 (eighteen years ago)

Osama bin Laden's a bit of a toff actually.

― Ned Trifle II, Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:54 (eighteen years ago)

A bit??!?!

― Tom D., Thursday, 3 May 2007 13:56 (eighteen years ago)

Is this true? Where can I read it?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1116855,00.html

― underpants of the gods, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:01 (eighteen years ago)

xpost :

http://www.thebeststuffintheworld.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/boris-johnson-23920.jpg

― tom, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:05 (eighteen years ago)

"This is an edited extract of a recording believed to have been made by the al-Qaida leader, transmitted by al-Jazeera and translated by the BBC Monitoring Service"

It disappointed me to learn that OBL doesn't have Alan Rusbridger's email address.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 3 May 2007 14:15 (eighteen years ago)

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