American perceptions of the English

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This is prompted by the guy who was covering the Queen's visit on CNN.

WTF?

Presumably this insane caricature (who, it looks like, bases his entire personality on Dick Van Dyke's performance in Mary Poppins) is a global news network's idea of what their viewers believe the English to be. Where the hell did they get him from?

I'm speaking as an Englishman who in no way resembles that guy - I'm black, my accent does not veer haphazardly between mockney and some hideous middle-class idea of what aristos sound like, my speech is not pepperded with stupid cliched aphorisms and there's absolutely no way I'd ever be gauche enough wear fucking white tie simply to comment on the Queen (for fuck's sake!).

I did see Jon Stewart on The Daily Show using this to torture John Oliver. Which was amusing. But then I started wondering whether this was the image that a vocal and idiotic minority of the English present in the US. And whether this corrosively parochial idea of Englishness (it's Southern and middle class - I'm neither) is what England's "branding" abroad has become.

This isn't about patriotism or jingoism, I've no place for either. I'm just wondering that's all.

So how are the English perceived in the US?

― Stone Monkey, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:27 (eighteen years ago)

Bad tippers.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:28 (eighteen years ago)

was it lily allen or lady sov who informed her american fans that "we're not all like the queen" or something totally unpatronizzle like that?

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:28 (eighteen years ago)

Ooh this is gonna be good.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:28 (eighteen years ago)

"English perceptions of the English" would be a much more interesting thread

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:30 (eighteen years ago)

the way the Queen said "fascinating" to that NASA dude under her breath without moving her mouth at all = why Britain is THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

England's 'branding' abroad = Hugh Grant, surely?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

uh - repressed, pedantic, speech is not peppered with stupid cliched aphorisms...

― jhøshea, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:31 (eighteen years ago)

You forgot 'sexy accents'.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

Watch this thread for persistent inability to distinguish British from English - mostly by English people

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

Can I just start posting cat pictures now?

― Masonic Boom, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

A perhaps illustrative story (perhaps not):

My boss's dad is from London, somewhere in the East End, moved here in the sixties. As my boss tells the story, his dad's accent was so strong that he was having trouble being understood by people where he was living at the time (in this case, Las Vegas), and this was causing him no end of grief.

So he decided he would learn how to speak English in an American way. He did this by obsessively listening to Johnny Cash records.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:32 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.movieactors.com/freezeframes-12/NorthByNorthwest46.jpg

― alkie cat, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:33 (eighteen years ago)

the way the Queen said "fascinating" to that NASA dude under her breath without moving her mouth at all = why Britain is THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH

-- blueski, Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:31 PM (1 minute ago)

hahaha OTM

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:33 (eighteen years ago)

^^^ lol, i did subconsciously similar when i moved to london:/

― 696, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

oh, i didnt do that, i was referring to neds post

― 696, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

Family guy. Drive-by arguments.

"Oh Reginald?....I disagree!"

― franny glass, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.britishpictures.com/photos/pics/howard.jpg

― alkie cat, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

http://home.online.no/~s-antons/pages/Mainpages/Biography/Biopics/Friends.jpg

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:34 (eighteen years ago)

He did this by obsessively listening to Johnny Cash records.

i want to speak like Lee Hazlewood.

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:35 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gbv=2&q=%22lobsters+on+the+pier%22&btnG=Search&meta=

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

lol, i did subconsciously similar when i moved to london:/

You have to, because there are so many lazy cunts here who can't be arsed to understand regional accents

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

http://entimg.msn.com/i/150/TV/sept04/TheWire_elba-west_1_150x225.jpg

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:36 (eighteen years ago)

I mean if you want the lowest common denominator stereotypes that some strawman American has about some strawman Brit it's probably either some stodgy, monacled aristocrat called Lord Havisham or a poor wench along the lines of Liza Doolittle, or at best a Monty Python character, but we're not cretins here.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:37 (eighteen years ago)

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f257/daydreambelievers/TheMonkees542.jpg

― alkie cat, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:38 (eighteen years ago)

OHHH GIRL
LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO ME
OH GIRL

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:38 (eighteen years ago)

Answer to question:

http://www.gomog.com/images/Kingralph.jpg

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:38 (eighteen years ago)

Never said you were.

But are we projecting this image ourselves because it's nicer than the real thing?

― Stone Monkey, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:40 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.chemungvalley.org/8.25.1a.redcoats.475.JPG

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:41 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.thismoment.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/blog/banksy.jpg

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:42 (eighteen years ago)

I understand why UK people on this board get a little miffed when they feel like the Americans have weird notions of them -- we're all here talking, after all -- but is it really so strange that some Americans in general might have a slightly caricatured view of Britain? We kinda do this with everywhere, after all, and the balance of trade for pop culture tends to run from the US outward, so other nations see plenty more of the US than we do of them.

Keep in mind also that some of the biggest and most formative chunks of British culture that penetrate the US mind are centered on the Victorian era (or older, running all back to Shakespeare), which doesn't really help with the caricature element.

There are presumably also some Americans who think of the French wearing sailor shirts and carrying baguettes and whatnot, but if it helps at all, I'd guess that most people just have this as one element of their imagination, and if asked seriously would probably say they know the French aren't actually all wearing sailor shirts (just like Americans, dear Europe, aren't seriously or generally selling guns to 13-year-olds and shooting one another in supermarkets).

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:43 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.footnotetv.com/picftvww11.jpg

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:44 (eighteen years ago)

Watch this thread for persistent inability to distinguish British from English - mostly by English people

Well, to get it out of the way:

Scottish
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/48/Willied.png

Welsh...uh...
http://www.jiminycritic.com/images/notting_spike.jpg
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/dreamworks_skg/the_terminal/catherine_zeta_jones/termpreg.jpg
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/hexenal/tom-jones.jpg

I guess...

English are all evil villains of some sort. Or snobbish dandies.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:44 (eighteen years ago)

Watch this thread for persistent inability to distinguish British from English - mostly by English people

i'd genuinely like to hear some (sensible) american perceptions of the scots (and welsh, and northern irish, and indeed irish); esp how these fit into their respective images (if they even see a difference?) of "england" and "britain".

xpost: heheheh, thanks gukbe :)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

who is that first welsh guy i want to be his boyfriend

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:45 (eighteen years ago)

Actually, I was talking to my friend about the Showtime series The Tudors last night, and she was wondering why on earth the US has made a show about Henry VIII. The Brits would never make a series about Thomas Jefferson, surely.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

I'd genuinely like to hear some (sensible) english perceptions of the scots (and welsh, and northern irish, and indeed irish); esp how these fit into their respective images (if they even see a difference?) of "england" and "britain" - that would be novel

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

Presumably this insane caricature (who, it looks like, bases his entire personality on Dick Van Dyke's performance in Mary Poppins) is a global news network's idea of what their viewers believe the English to be. Where the hell did they get him from?

You should see who they put on the TV whenever a tornado hits the South.

― Pleasant Plains, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

The Brits would never make a series about Thomas Jefferson, surely.

THE WORLD IS OUR ENTERTAINMENT OYSTER

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

Most Americans view the English as either Austin Powers, Anthony Stewart Head, or Sid Vicious.

Having visited London in the late 1990's, I can safely say that this impression is entirely incorrect. Most English are either denim-clad, toothless old men who try sell "ekkie" and "hash" to scraggly youths with oversized backpacks or they are motionless and painted gold/silver.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

A friend of mine was convinced for a while that Catherine Zeta-Jones was Tom Jones's daughter.

― jaymc, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:47 (eighteen years ago)

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:48 (eighteen years ago)

We made a film about him
http://www.lovefilm.com/lovefilm/images/products/7/21227-large.jpg

― Stone Monkey, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:49 (eighteen years ago)

Most English are either denim-clad, toothless old men who try sell "ekkie" and "hash" to scraggly youths with oversized backpacks

That was exactly my first experience in Camden.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:50 (eighteen years ago)

Whoa - Sally Hemmings is listening in on oversized white people.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:50 (eighteen years ago)

General American perception of the Welsh = "the who?"
General American perception of the Scottish = gruff, growly, fighty
General American perception of the Irish = perception/stereotypes of American Irish (mostly loving) mixed with vision of home country as happy rolling-green thatched-roof Emerald Isle, good place to get married

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:50 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think 'my' generation of people really view the Scots as particularly different to the English at all.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:50 (eighteen years ago)

My generation of English people, that is.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

― jaymc, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

That was exactly my first experience in Camden

You actually found some English people in Camden?

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:51 (eighteen years ago)

lol i think those people were somalian

― 696, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

selling to spanish or italian

― 696, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

General American perception of the Irish = perception/stereotypes of American Irish (mostly loving) mixed with vision of home country as happy rolling-green thatched-roof Emerald Isle, good place to get married

Enough to make you puke, huh?

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)

Part of it's that the US doesn't have history that goes back as far as Henry VIII.

That's what I said, but...ya know...

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

Yall did it to yourselves.

http://media.mesta.net/mesta/leffakuvat/mr%20bean.jpg

― adam, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:55 (eighteen years ago)

The other week an Irish guy came into one of the court offices and after he left the staff was giggling about "lucky charms". Jesus, at least reference some corny upmarket comedy film so I'll only want to slap you instead of punch you.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:56 (eighteen years ago)

What does that mean, "lucky charms"?

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

it's what the irish call their "bits".

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)

As in so many areas, the Simpsons have already had the last word on this.

― Aimless, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

Growing up, all English were either like those on Are You Being Served?, or they were Chimney Sweeps (or any kind of cheeky, but lovable, working class scamp).

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

General American perception of the Scottish = gruff, growly

... grim(ly)?

I don't think 'my' generation of people really view the Scots as particularly different to the English at all.

yes: and that's one of the biggest problems for many people north of the border (says the englishman who's lived here for 10 years and had his perceptions and politics changed enormously).

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:04 (eighteen years ago)

10 years? sorry, 14.

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:04 (eighteen years ago)

says the englishman who's lived here for 10 years and had his perceptions and politics changed enormously

Ha ha, the proof of the pudding, laddie!

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

I was about to say we do that with lots of the places large numbers of Americans came from -- perceptions of Ireland and Italy are tinted by a kind of rosy, nostalgic, mother-country quality -- but it's largely just those two now, isn't it. I know there was German culture-nostalgia, but that was totally extinguished as of WWII; I don't know how much this worked for Scandiniavian areas in the Midwest. And post-WWII our perceptions of Eastern Europe are totally the opposite, as some grim gray place people want to escape from. It seems like recent Polish immigrants are big Poland boosters, but I guess I don't know what kind of old-country perception was fostered by the big earlier waves of Polish immigration.

Anyway, Ireland, Italy, those are the ones Americans love.

xpost - Grimly, I think the gruff-Scotsman thing these days stems mostly from comedy (and Trainspotting, I suppose) -- in US pop culture there's not a lot of reason to have anyone be specifically Scottish unless (a) it's a gag, or (b) you just want to have a bagpipe and kilt scene, which Americans would seem to enjoy quite a bit. But on another level I think Scotland is sometimes used as a good blank "respectable" place for an American character's ancestry to go back to (haha because being English would mean something?), another thing that comes through in kilt-laden weddings and such. True fact: Mr. Wilson on the Dennis the Menace TV series was Scottish, and played the bagpipes, and was very flustered when Dennis kept calling him a Scotchman instead of a Scotsman.

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

Scotland = MANLY, might be the nugget at the center of American perceptions. Beards, mountains, log-tossing, etc.

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:13 (eighteen years ago)

Anyway, Ireland, Italy, those are the ones Americans love.

Also Catholic, as opposed to boring Protestant Scotland and England (excepting all those Irish Americans who are actually from Ulster and are techincally Scottish anyway)

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:16 (eighteen years ago)

Haha possibly our problem, as a nation built on immigration, is that we think of other countries (especially European ones) as historical places, places to be FROM, and tend to be uninterested in the modern states of such places. You're not supposed to exist in the present, you're supposed to be quaint old storybook aesthetics for us to have grown out of.

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:16 (eighteen years ago)

You actually found some English people in Camden?

this is a big, big diff with the English, i've found - it takes quite a while for someone to graduate to "being English", even in London; if you said the equivalent about New York - i.e. "you actually found some Americans in Jackson Heights??" it would be nonsensical, until you realized what they meant, and then it would be racist

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:16 (eighteen years ago)

nabisco has met me

― RJG, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:19 (eighteen years ago)

Thank god for Mike Myers and his Scottish dad, so we can have 50% of the gags in So I Married an Axe Murderer and Fat Bastard all for ourselves.

― stet, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:26 (eighteen years ago)

mmmmm

― RJG, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:27 (eighteen years ago)

Although, I wouldn't mind following ned's boss's dad's example, cos I can barely be understood outside the Glasgow city boundary, let alone in other countries.

― stet, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:27 (eighteen years ago)

everyone just rent Eurotrip.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:28 (eighteen years ago)

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/6/6e/Mr_peanut.png

― crackaphone bro, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:30 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, I hate to say it, but pretty much Mike Myers, Groundskeeper Willie, Braveheart, and Trainspotting are the bulk of the pop-culture rep Scotland's gotten in the US over the past couple decades, apart from wedding scenes in which the men wear kilts.

Never fear, though, it just means you can come to the US and do a Scottish accent and scare people off by threatening to head-butt them.

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:31 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/bush_blair_mic_350.jpg

― crackaphone bro, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:32 (eighteen years ago)

Scottish guys in kilts are total babe-magnets in the Southern U.S. Or so I've been told repeatedly.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)

English guys get the whole "aww, cute accent", but probably not as much tail.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)

Part of it's that the US doesn't have history that goes back as far as Henry VIII.

-- jaymc, Thursday, May 10, 2007 12:51 PM (36 minutes ago)

HOW DERE
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Ninigret.jpg

― and what, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:34 (eighteen years ago)

excepting all those Irish Americans who are actually from Ulster and are techincally Scottish anyway

yea but this is kinda different isnt it? i presume you're referring to upper-south scotch-irish

― 696, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:34 (eighteen years ago)

http://hem.fyristorg.com/robertm/norge/images/Chamberlain_m.jpg http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/apmw/s2464/churchill.jpg

― crackaphone bro, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:40 (eighteen years ago)

Point taken, Ethan, but that wasn't quite "the US" as such.

― jaymc, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:40 (eighteen years ago)

kinda like the england of henry the 8th vs today

― and what, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:41 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.abbotshill.freeserve.co.uk/Images/EWHenryLamb.jpg http://img.timeinc.net/time/europe/magazine/2004/0913/wodehouse.jpg

― crackaphone bro, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:42 (eighteen years ago)

I was about to say we do that with lots of the places large numbers of Americans came from -- perceptions of Ireland and Italy are tinted by a kind of rosy, nostalgic, mother-country quality -- but it's largely just those two now, isn't it

and

I know there was German culture-nostalgia, but that was totally extinguished as of WWII; I don't know how much this worked for Scandiniavian areas in the Midwest.

This strikes counter to my experience: I come from a German family, and there's a lot of love for the ol' homeland. I'd suggest that perceptions of a culture's historical worth are largely influenced by geographic factors, and the immediecy of their effect on an individual's life.

― remy bean, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:42 (eighteen years ago)

everyone just rent Eurotrip.

eighty
eighty.

― gff, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

crackaphone bro OTM in posting picture of M. White

― Dimension 5ive, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:43 (eighteen years ago)

So he decided he would learn how to speak English in an American way. He did this by obsessively listening to Johnny Cash records.

LOLOLOL

Stone Monkey, could you post the original idoicy that prompted this thread?

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:45 (eighteen years ago)

Actually that's Waugh and Wodehouse, l-r.

― crackaphone bro, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:45 (eighteen years ago)

Ahaha I was also going to reference M White. Nice work.

― Laurel, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:46 (eighteen years ago)

Remy, I'm sure there's still plenty of it in the Upper Midwest -- what I mean is that prior to WWII there was significant, organized rosy German-culture activity and remembrance going on in the US, and then, with the German-American Bund and the lead-up to war, that got pretty substantially squeezed down. There are definitely plenty of Great Lakesy areas where you get some of it, but I don't think it's anywhere near the national level of infatuation with Ireland or Italy as old-country places.

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:49 (eighteen years ago)

English is capable of greatness in TV comedy MOST NOTABLY THE OFFICE

― tremendoid, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:49 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.larryflynt.com/images/notebook/Christopher_Hitchens.gif

― C0L1N B..., Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:49 (eighteen years ago)

the german nostalgia boils down to oktoberfest basically! getting shithoused, low fiber foods, and old timey music that you shout along to at some point.

which is basically all the ireland and italy fetishization comes to as well

― gff, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:52 (eighteen years ago)

There's a lot of German culture strongpoints in TX.

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:52 (eighteen years ago)

see also: the entire state of Wisconsin

― dan m, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:53 (eighteen years ago)

I think the Germans actually had a meeting with the Scandiniavians to scope out Wisconsin and Minnesota and arrange for a rough replica of home.

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 17:58 (eighteen years ago)

is the midwest really all scandinavian & bergmanesque like in fargo?

― and what, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:04 (eighteen years ago)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/210/492725595_ecc8b23a35.jpg?v=0 http://farm1.static.flickr.com/201/492725593_0329751aa4.jpg?v=0

― Bnad, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:11 (eighteen years ago)

Probably more Irish than English

― Bnad, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:12 (eighteen years ago)

american perceptions of the midwest

― alkie cat, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:12 (eighteen years ago)

flat, boring, fly over country^^^

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:12 (eighteen years ago)

also: RONG

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:12 (eighteen years ago)

But not entirely wrong.

― crackaphone bro, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:13 (eighteen years ago)

Haha exactly Fargo, there is actually a yearly holiday where we feed effigies of Steve Buscemi through wood chippers! Umm so not the whole upper Midwest -- but you get up into Minnesota and there are a good number of tall, friendly blonde people about. (Wisconsin is more German, breweries and all; Michigan is fairly Dutch but also quite German.) As far as that Wisconsin/Minnesota corridor goes, Garrison Keillor stuff really is a fairly accurate exaggeration of the old-school local character (i.e., be Lutheran and say "pontoon" as often as possible).

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:19 (eighteen years ago)

I was just gis'ing for a picture of Garrison Keillor. ..

― Ms Misery, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:20 (eighteen years ago)

Ha ha, the proof of the pudding, laddie!

yep: my point exactly.

True fact: Mr. Wilson on the Dennis the Menace TV series was Scottish, and played the bagpipes, and was very flustered when Dennis kept calling him a Scotchman instead of a Scotsman.

b-b-but dennis the menace is originally scottish! he's from fuckin' dundee! you don't GET more scottish than fuckin' dundee :)

(nb: i'm aware this'll be the wee blond dennis, not the proper spiky-haired original. whatever. it's not a serious point. and this thread is very good. carry on.)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 10 May 2007 18:57 (eighteen years ago)

http://marzo.extremevideostore.com/Bridget%20Jones.jpg

LADIES LOVE COOL HUGH, INSECURE NON-FATTEYS

― Abbott, Thursday, 10 May 2007 19:22 (eighteen years ago)

BIG LIAR BIG LAWYER

― and what, Thursday, 10 May 2007 19:24 (eighteen years ago)

Srsly I think all 30+-yr-old Amer women get their Britishs perceptions as pure Hugh Grantness.

― Abbott, Thursday, 10 May 2007 19:25 (eighteen years ago)

She terrifies me, that vacuous blow-up-doll.

― Abbott, Thursday, 10 May 2007 19:25 (eighteen years ago)

german up here in wisconsin yes but actually just as much danish/swedish etc. and there is a certain bleakness of outlook sometimes but we cover it over with fake friendliness and dog ownership.

― Dimension 5ive, Thursday, 10 May 2007 19:31 (eighteen years ago)

Americans have an unnatural fondness for "Are You Being Served?" People ask about it at work all the time and laugh, and when I lived in Scotland & England for 2+ years I never heard in mentioned once. Is it because they used to show reruns of it on PBS constantly?

― jocelyn, Thursday, 10 May 2007 19:59 (eighteen years ago)

yes.

― Dimension 5ive, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:03 (eighteen years ago)

Real question: do any Americans pereive themselves to be 'English Americans'? and what kind of proportion of Americans are descended from English people? (obviously this is difficult, because presumably anyone who describes themselves as an Irish American is unlikely to have great-great-grandparents who all came from Ireland, so I imagine most people are a mixture of all kinds of places)

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:06 (eighteen years ago)

My ancestors came over on the Mayflower.

― crackaphone bro, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:07 (eighteen years ago)

presumably anyone who describes themselves as an Irish American is unlikely to have great-great-grandparents who all came from Ireland

uh, no. i'm 2nd generation american, my mother was the first member of the family born here. both my grandparents were born in ireland and emigrated from there when they were kids. similarly my dad was the first member of his family not born in poland. he only spoke polish until he was 5 and started grade school, after than my grandfather forbade him from speaking anything but english.

it's not that hard to trace your family tree.

― chicago kevin, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:12 (eighteen years ago)

Even easier if it's a totem pole, like that guy up there who's a Mayflower inbred, apparently.

― Laurel, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:14 (eighteen years ago)

back to american perceptions of the english, i base this solely on my (admittedly few) british friends: lousy tippers (except my friend chris who was totally down with the "when in rome..." thing and LOVED the idea of the buy back), over concerned with fashion, try way too hard.

actually, none of those apply to chris which is why he's blood diamonds and i hope to christ that he's gonna be in memphis in september. actually, i guess the above only applies to my friends from london.

― chicago kevin, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:18 (eighteen years ago)

I just found my great-grandfather's name listed in a 1917 farmer's directory that someone has put online for some reason, which also tells me that he first came to the U.S. in 1877. I think he emigrated from French Canada.

― jaymc, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:37 (eighteen years ago)

I tend to think of Britisher ILXors as not really having much of an accent, or maybe a slight, BBC World News tinged RP deal.

Then I meet Gravel Puzzleworth and it's like "OMG is he really gonna talk like that the whole time!" Because that's just not quite how I've been imagining him talking for years. It's a failure of my imagination, I know.

Or, better, one night Cozen decides he wants to voice-IM me in a drunken haze, and I can barely understand a word he's saying.

― Casuistry, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:51 (eighteen years ago)

my friend chris is from liverpool and sounds exactly like george harrison circa 1962.

― chicago kevin, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:54 (eighteen years ago)

"OMG is he really gonna talk like that the whole time!"

Hahaha!

― jaymc, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:54 (eighteen years ago)

LOL

crossposts

― RJG, Thursday, 10 May 2007 20:55 (eighteen years ago)

i'm 2nd generation american, my mother was the first member of the family born here.

doesn't that make you third generation?

― Cathy, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:22 (eighteen years ago)

Ha, this runs against Tracer's thing above, but we usually count born generations in that phrase. Second-generation native-born American.

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:24 (eighteen years ago)

doesn't that make you third generation?

2nd born here. my grandfather never became a citizen, i would doubt my grandmother ever did officially either. they may have naturalized but they never renounced their irish citizenship.

― chicago kevin, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:27 (eighteen years ago)

O poor G Puzz! Love u, boo.

― Laurel, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:28 (eighteen years ago)

i'm not good at telling the difference between various english accents, so: how would britishes describe hugh grant's accent?

― sleep, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:32 (eighteen years ago)

oh, I see. another US/UK difference. potato potahto.

― Cathy, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:33 (eighteen years ago)

HAHA 'Are You Being Served' OTM. That and 'Keeping Up Appearances.' They also showed CHEF on PBS Saturday nights for a few years....I feel I am the only one ever to hear of or watch that program.

― Abbott, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:35 (eighteen years ago)

are you being served is gangsta.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:36 (eighteen years ago)

i never "got" eastenders though.

― M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:36 (eighteen years ago)

the only thing i miss about not having cable (er, aside from espn) is bbc america. the news was actually news and commericals/fluff/pap and at least half the shows were entertaining.

― chicago kevin, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

'Are You Being Served' has my favorite theme song ever next to 'The Price is Right.'

― Abbott, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

hugh grant's accent is southern english and posh. when I hear english people speaking like that in films, I always go "oh, that's so ridiculous, they're just camping it up for the americans", and then I go to the south of england and hear people actually speaking like that.

― Cathy, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:38 (eighteen years ago)

BBC America has an ad for Bailey's on ice every 10 minutes. May as well mix chocolate syrup & pepto bismol, that stuff is just wretched.

― Abbott, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:39 (eighteen years ago)

Thanks Cathy

There were 3 fellows that sounded exactly like him the other day, and they were all handsome and 30ish and going on about all the places they'd traveled and extravagant things they'd done and they basically came across as extremely rich and privileged, and their manner of speaking seemed to make perfect sense to the point of being some kind of cliche. But like I said, I don't really know anything about the class subtexts associated with various British accents.

― sleep, Thursday, 10 May 2007 21:42 (eighteen years ago)

BBC America is terrible and does not in any way resemble a REAL BBC channel.

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:04 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, I figured the real BBC didn't show Monty Python maratons every week.

― Abbott, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:04 (eighteen years ago)

I think my own accent would probably annoy the hell out of me if I heard it going on about amazing travel experiences.

The big accent difference within England is supposed to be northern = shortened 'a' sounds, rhyming bath with maths, and southern = long 'a' sounds, rhyming bath with hearth (I'm aware that americans perhaps pronounce these words in some way that will make the distinction incomprehensible, but I don't know proper phonetics).

I am from the midlands and use both fairly interchangeably, sometimes the two different ways in the same sentence, or a sort of cross between the two.

― Cathy, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:06 (eighteen years ago)

Also, no scommercials, more sports, less Changing Rooms, domestic (British) news instead of this ill-defined international hodge podge. They did show Spaced and Black Books thohgh, so fair enough.

xp

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:07 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, all I really need is the UK QAF and Spaced, anyway. Maybe some Father Ted on the late-night block.

― Laurel, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:09 (eighteen years ago)

what is the late-night block

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:11 (eighteen years ago)

they're all channel 4 programmes, aren't they?

― RJG, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:13 (eighteen years ago)

I dunno, like when Nick at Night is on, and News Radio, and all things syndicated. XP

― Laurel, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:13 (eighteen years ago)

what is syndicated

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:15 (eighteen years ago)

And post-WWII our perceptions of Eastern Europe are totally the opposite, as some grim gray place people want to escape from.

In the early 90s I worked with a guy who's dad and gotten them out of Russia (somewhere in Siberia, to be precise) in the late 80's, before the fall of communism.

He told me how he grew up thinking that Americans had TVs in every room of every house, how everyone got a new car every year, everyone was rich, etc. I told him how I pictured Russia being dark, gray, people lining up for bread, and things being shitty in general and he said that this was exactly what it was like, he hated it, and he was glad to have gotten the hell out.

― joygoat, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:20 (eighteen years ago)

they're all channel 4 programmes, aren't they?

and footballer's wives!

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:22 (eighteen years ago)

This thread is remarkably restrained considering the forum and the subject. And I think nabisco was yes (OTM) in that I get the feeling some (and only some) Americans see a lot of European countries as trapped in time and tradition. I've already told all the stories elsewhere on ILX, about how some Americans have asked me if black people in the UK are "American or African", and if I've heard of pizza, and how is it possible that I am Jewish AND British (and am I the only one?), but there have also been much more flattering misconceptions that I wish were true, like the girl who asked me if everyone in the UK "dresses like they do on the catwalk". Bless her. But these were isolated incidents that I am using for exaggeration.

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:27 (eighteen years ago)

Should I try to sound like Johnny Cash?

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:28 (eighteen years ago)

There's lots of flattering stereotypes involved, though: the gist of it tends to involve Americans thinking of the English as, like, dons! You're allegedly smarter than us but very stuffy and polite and snobbish about it -- that's not the worst rep in the world.

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:29 (eighteen years ago)

there is a lot of ignorance in the world

― RJG, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:30 (eighteen years ago)

Of course.

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:30 (eighteen years ago)

Haha and you all talk like Patrick Stewart doing Dickens.

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:30 (eighteen years ago)

And post-WWII our perceptions of Eastern Europe are totally the opposite, as some grim gray place people want to escape from. It seems like recent Polish immigrants are big Poland boosters, but I guess I don't know what kind of old-country perception was fostered by the big earlier waves of Polish immigration.

i don't think pre-WWII eastern europe was a whole lot of fun, tbh. or even pre-WWI: why dyou think so many eastern europeans emigrated to the US!?

I've already told all the stories elsewhere on ILX, about how some Americans have asked me if black people in the UK are "American or African"

haha zomg my white american cousin (who should know better, given her parents are british) a) had no knowledge of the british empire b) had no idea how britain came to have a black population c) referred to its members as 'african-american'.

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:31 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, all joking aside the idea that the UK is "all white people" has never really been one I'm able to get my head around.

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:33 (eighteen years ago)

what about that it should be?

― RJG, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:34 (eighteen years ago)

Well, I mean how people can come to that conclusion.

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:34 (eighteen years ago)

I've just spent a couple of hours in the pub with some friends of mine and an American dude who's over for a week. I think the poor guy had been hammered by negative American stereotypes and was trying really hard to offset them.

Unfortunately he did less well at the stereotype of not being able to take his beer and by the end of the evening was like "hey girls, I'm going to the TOILET. Not the BATHROOM... I'm not going to take a... BATH*!" and the girls we were with were kind of staring at him in stunned silence.

*This was pronounced "barrrrrrrrth".

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:34 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe John Barth was in there cruising and he was noting he wasn't picking up on the offer?

― Abbott, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:35 (eighteen years ago)

P.S. If you want good news on the Americans-knowing-about-the-UK tip, there are actually two national/major-market ad campaigns going on right now that revolve around the ability to differentiate a posh accent from a common one! Or at least one and a half. The Geico gecko finally started talking and turned out to have a charming common drawl and say things like "innit." Another involves Surcharge ("Sir Charge") taking all the money from your Verizon phone bill while talking posh, then getting kicked to the curb and showing his true colors by going all pissy cockney angry. So there is clearly some faith that the average viewer is not totally in the dark about this.

xpost Matt that's very funny! You should have laughed! You people certainly laughed at me when I said "restroom" and y'all went "oh, are you TIRED hahahahaha."

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:36 (eighteen years ago)

That Geico thing has always thrown me.

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:37 (eighteen years ago)

"hey girls, I'm going to the TOILET. Not the BATHROOM... I'm not going to take a... BATH*!" and the girls we were with were kind of staring at him in stunned silence.

well, i'm not surprised. what kind of a savage says 'toilet' for 'lavatory'?

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:38 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 22:48 (eighteen years ago)

O poor G Puzz! Love u, boo.

I'm not sure what this means but I want to make it clear that I'm entirely pro-GP and his accent.

But he was maybe the first person I have hung out with in real life who did that thing where you say "f" instead of "th". (I have no idea what sort of accent that is considered.) I think that was part of it -- someone who actually talks like the people on tv talk. Like when Canadians actually say "eh?"

― Casuistry, Thursday, 10 May 2007 23:06 (eighteen years ago)

AMERICANS!

listen to this!
http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/text-only/england/byker/

― admrl, Thursday, 10 May 2007 23:11 (eighteen years ago)

no taxation, no representation, no credibility

― Steve Shasta, Thursday, 10 May 2007 23:12 (eighteen years ago)

What, is that what you sound like, Adam?

― Casuistry, Friday, 11 May 2007 00:51 (eighteen years ago)

― Drew Daniel, Friday, 11 May 2007 01:16 (eighteen years ago)

Oh and to answer the kind of "polling" question upthread, to an American ear a Scottish accent just sounds "rural" and "regional" (mostly) in comparison to the standard BBC presenter voice. After living in England for a few years I kind of figured out that certain Scottish accents actually scanned as far more "posh" than certian Southern ones. The whole class/region double whammy makes it all a bit more complex than the initial corny American attitude that English people are either upper crust twats or Dick Van Dyke magical cockneys.

― Drew Daniel, Friday, 11 May 2007 01:20 (eighteen years ago)

What, is that what you sound like, Adam?
No, I probably sound more like Michelle (no relation):
http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/text-only/received-pronunciation/london/

― admrl, Friday, 11 May 2007 02:12 (eighteen years ago)

She sounds like a goer.

― Casuistry, Friday, 11 May 2007 02:18 (eighteen years ago)

― Drew Daniel, Friday, 11 May 2007 02:30 (eighteen years ago)

No, some of "us" do that. I get called out on it all the time. Also, when my boss tries to impersonate me, he sounds like Vincent Price.

― admrl, Friday, 11 May 2007 02:36 (eighteen years ago)

Also we pronounce "fillet" fill-it rather than fil-ay which gets me some funny looks.

― admrl, Friday, 11 May 2007 02:42 (eighteen years ago)

I'll ave a peetzer wiv me fill-it, guvnah.

― admrl, Friday, 11 May 2007 02:43 (eighteen years ago)

This thread is reminding me of how weird it was to attend Oxford as an American and befriend people from Newcastle with Geordie accents and also people with hardcore posh/aristo Southern accents and only realize gradually that when I made them all socialize together this was A Problem (for them).

I think you've probably put your finger on the various ILX attitudes towards L. Jagger

― badg, Friday, 11 May 2007 02:47 (eighteen years ago)

Apparently a poem is not a po-yum, it's a pome. But this is from a someone who sounds exactly the same when she says "paw", "pour" and "poor", so bugr that.

― stet, Friday, 11 May 2007 02:50 (eighteen years ago)

i always think how great it must have been for british character actors back in the days of the studio system to be so steadily employed in hollywood with all the lit adaptations/period pieces they used to churn out (of course some brits still dine out on this stuff but the volume has lessened considerably over the years). people like nigel bruce, arthur treacher etc

― gershy, Friday, 11 May 2007 02:58 (eighteen years ago)

Yes, I kinda feel lucky that as an American when I hear a thespy n posh British accent I find it really pleasurable because it's at an aesthetic remove and shows up as "cute" for me, whereas if I were in a society in which that accent was instantly reminiscent of actual assholes (er, arseholes) in positions of power and authority and privilege all around me it wouldn't be nearly so fun to watch the old Asquith film adaptation of "The Importance of Being Earnest" etc.

― Drew Daniel, Friday, 11 May 2007 03:46 (eighteen years ago)

Okay Brit ilxors, I have a question about the "Michelle" accent- she was doing this thing that I hear British speakers from a variety of backgrounds doing: when she says "vodka", which an American, more or less, would pronounce vod-kuh going "uh" at the end of the word like we're saying duhhh, she says faintly but perceptibly "vod-ker" with a tiny "er" sound in there. She fully pronounces the end of the word "october" and says the "er' part, but it seems like the "er" sound creeps into other words too. I notice this overwhelmingly when British people pronounce "pizza" as if it was spelled "peetz-er". Peetz-er Express etc. What is up? Am I hallucinating?

Hence my Canadian friends calling me "Dav-er". To counteract my calling Brenda "Brend-er" and Lisa "Lis-er", etc.

Here are a couple more Canadian examples that may or may not apply to the US.

First, the names Kerry, Carey and Carrie sound identical to me when pronounced in a Canadian (North American?) accent.

Second, early on after I landed here, my g/f used to get me to say the following: "The squirrel made a pattern on the mirror" because apparently my English accent (a mix of working and lower middle class East Midlands and Mancunian mostly) sounded astoundingly different to the local one ("Squirrel" = two definite syllables, "pattern" sounding more like that old WWII General Patton, and again "mirror" being two distinct syllables instead of the North American more monosyllabic "Meer"). Fun stuff.

― Lostandfound, Friday, 11 May 2007 05:52 (eighteen years ago)

First, the names Kerry, Carey and Carrie sound identical to me when pronounced in a Canadian (North American?) accent.

I should add that I can probably distinguish them more now. Same applies to the names Bob and Barb.

― Lostandfound, Friday, 11 May 2007 05:54 (eighteen years ago)

Wow, this page http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/case-studies/geordie/vowel-sounds/
is a revelation. Some of these Geordie accents sound totally Jamaican. How did the Jamaican accent develop then?

― walterkranz, Friday, 11 May 2007 05:56 (eighteen years ago)

This thread is reminding me of how weird it was to attend Oxford as an American and befriend people from Newcastle with Geordie accents and also people with hardcore posh/aristo Southern accents and only realize gradually that when I made them all socialize together this was A Problem (for them). [...]

Yes, I kinda feel lucky that as an American when I hear a thespy n posh British accent I find it really pleasurable because it's at an aesthetic remove and shows up as "cute" for me, whereas if I were in a society in which that accent was instantly reminiscent of actual assholes (er, arseholes) in positions of power and authority and privilege all around me it wouldn't be nearly so fun to watch the old Asquith film adaptation of "The Importance of Being Earnest" etc.

-- Drew Daniel, Friday, May 11, 2007 6:46 AM (3 hours ago)

well if you [i]will seek out the two geordie guys in oxford... but srsly, the second paragraph, projection much? do you think working-class americans steered clear of films about those in power and authority? why would the british do any different?

― That one guy that quit, Friday, 11 May 2007 07:27 (eighteen years ago)

he didnt say they'd steer clear. he said it wouldnt be as much fun. not an oppositional, but a degree

― 696, Friday, 11 May 2007 07:32 (eighteen years ago)

some Americans have asked me if black people in the UK are "American or African"

???

Okay Brit ilxors, I have a question about the "Michelle" accent- she was doing this thing that I hear British speakers from a variety of backgrounds doing: when she says "vodka", which an American, more or less, would pronounce vod-kuh going "uh" at the end of the word like we're saying duhhh, she says faintly but perceptibly "vod-ker" with a tiny "er" sound in there. She fully pronounces the end of the word "october" and says the "er' part, but it seems like the "er" sound creeps into other words too. I notice this overwhelmingly when British people pronounce "pizza" as if it was spelled "peetz-er". Peetz-er Express etc. What is up? Am I hallucinating?

Most American accents pronounce the 'r' at the end of words or syllables, whereas most English accents don't. So most Americans would say 'a darrrrk carrrr', and most English would say 'a dahk cah' (not the best transcription, but I'm sure you get the gist).

So you diferentiate between the 'er' sound you make at the end of 'mister' and 'teacher' and 'player' and the 'uh' sound you make at the end of 'vodka', whereas for most English people these would all end with the same 'uh' sound (the same one which is at the start of 'ago' or 'amount').

BUT... just to complicate things, if the following word begins with a vowel sound then most English people insert an 'r' sound between them (without realising they're doing it) and just link the two words together. So we'd say "far too much" as 'fah...', but "far away" as 'fahraway', or "Mr Smith" as 'mistuh smith', but "Mr Atkins" as 'mistuhratkins'. Also, lots of us do this even with there isn't an 'r' in the spelling (so "law and order" sounds like 'Laura Norder').

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 11 May 2007 08:56 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your response. Have I given offense in some way? I didn't intend too. To respond to what I think you're saying . . .. I don't think that one can line up easy parallels between the representations of class in British film and in American film (or in their conditions of spectatorship) because class struggle seems so foregrounded / owned up to in British society and so repressed/disavowed in American society (for filmmakers, for filmgoers). My sense is that British media are more "upfront" and honest about flagging class differences (to the point that you could accuse this very relentless honesty of being responsible for weirdly "reinforcing" class barriers by always keeping them in view), while in America people all try to hover towards the middle, in a slumming way for rich folks and an aspirational way for poor folks. Insidious and Repressed Class Conflict vs Omnipresent Class Conflict: which is worse? Both are bad in their own special way.

― Drew Daniel, Friday, 11 May 2007 09:10 (eighteen years ago)

think it's time we stopped talking about class

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 09:14 (eighteen years ago)

Great post! er, xxpost to NBS.

as for First, the names Kerry, Carey and Carrie sound identical to me when pronounced in a Canadian (North American?) accent:

This is the mary-marry-merry merger, where North American accents tend to merge the pronunciations of at least two of those three vowel sounds, and additionally there can be merges of murray and merry, or furry and merry - whereas us brits pronounce them all distinctly.

― ledge, Friday, 11 May 2007 09:15 (eighteen years ago)

You actually found some English people in Camden?

this is a big, big diff with the English, i've found - it takes quite a while for someone to graduate to "being English", even in London; if you said the equivalent about New York - i.e. "you actually found some Americans in Jackson Heights??" it would be nonsensical, until you realized what they meant, and then it would be racist

-- Tracer Hand,

Not really Tracer, I mean obviously you're American and the Lovely Emma B is French, but that would only come up and be mentioned if we were thinking about hometowns or so on, to most intents and purposes you're English or at least Londoners. The Camden thing is different (and okay, my notion of Jackson Heights is based on, um, Ugly Betty), because the non-English people in the context above would be tourists or language students ie here for two months or less before heading back to Spain, Italy, Sweden etc.

On accents:
Adam you DO sound rather like Hugh Grant actually. Last time I went to America I developed a massive accent paranoia and fear of sounding prissy, like the token Brit in ER. Then I read in an interview that Parminda Nagra (actress playing current token Brit in ER) is from the Midlands, same as me, so I felt a bit better because at least there's a broader reason for me sounding like her. That makes no sense, I haven't managed to ingest any caffine yet, must make tea (oh the shameful stereotypes.)

― Anna, Friday, 11 May 2007 09:24 (eighteen years ago)

(to the point that you could accuse this very relentless honesty of being responsible for weirdly "reinforcing" class barriers by always keeping them in view),

Drew, you are so right here.

― Anna, Friday, 11 May 2007 09:24 (eighteen years ago)

OK Anna! I was drawing assumptions it seems.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 09:40 (eighteen years ago)

there are still rhotic accents in england (blackburn, oldham, some rural ones too), so there are english people that pronounce the R at the end of carr

i disagree re the camden thing. the swedish people in camden stay a lot longer than a couple months, more like 4 or 5 years. theyre not english though, and neither is tracer hand

― 696, Friday, 11 May 2007 09:49 (eighteen years ago)

are they londoners though? in the same way i am, yes, which is on some level. but i dont identify as a londoner at all

― 696, Friday, 11 May 2007 09:50 (eighteen years ago)

i thought you said you did, on ILX, some time ago?

― blueski, Friday, 11 May 2007 10:00 (eighteen years ago)

i was trying out a new look

― 696, Friday, 11 May 2007 10:00 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/images/050429_pearly.jpg

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 10:09 (eighteen years ago)

wicked, wicked thread! thanks everyone, woo.

amazed we've got this far without this lady though:

http://f.screensavers.com/OMS/img/535/frasierleeves_215.jpg

she actually exaggerated her accent for Frasier, right? i've never actually heard her speak irl.

― CharlieNo4, Friday, 11 May 2007 10:24 (eighteen years ago)

I can't see that picture, but I'm assuming it's the Daphne woman. She didn't exaggerate her accent, she just invented one. She's from somewhere like Surrey, but puts on a weird pseudo-northern-but-not-too-difficult-for-Americans-to-understand accent for that role.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:26 (eighteen years ago)

i thought she was actually FROM manchester, but fuck knows what that accent is shes made up

― 696, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:35 (eighteen years ago)

East Grinstead (Sussex) according to wikipedia.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:36 (eighteen years ago)

hmm, i thought that was manchester. i saw a lot of shirts with 'rooney' and 'scholes' on the back when i was there last

― 696, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:37 (eighteen years ago)

Ok what exactly is the difference between "mary" and "marry" pre-merger? My head cannot get around that at all.

― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:40 (eighteen years ago)

"Is it your intention to marry merry Mary?"

― blueski, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:42 (eighteen years ago)

Mary = MARE-eee? As in the horse, then an "ee"?

Marry = "MAH-ree" or even "MUH-ree" depending on accent :)

Does that make sense?

― Sarah, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:44 (eighteen years ago)

Would Americans pronounce "Blackburn" like actual people from Blackburrrrrrn do? There's a firrrrurrr in Blackburrrrn ect ect...

― Sarah, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:45 (eighteen years ago)

No, seriously. I can handle poor vs pour, and berry vs bury, but mary/merry/marry? I can't even imagine how else to pronounce them! Well, that's not quite true, but when I try it sounds ridic.

― Laurel, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:46 (eighteen years ago)

the vowel sound in mary is the same as in air, heir, chair, bear, there/their/they're... marry is as in cat bat rat... maybe all those are merged in your head anyway.

― ledge, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:47 (eighteen years ago)

Oh, xp to Starry. Like Mairie's Wedding, then? Yeah, we don't do that here. :)

― Laurel, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:47 (eighteen years ago)

may-ree meh-ree mah-ree

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:48 (eighteen years ago)

I uploaded myself saying 'marry, merry, Mary' on a thread on here once, but I can't find it now.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:49 (eighteen years ago)

mare-E
meh-ri
ma-ri

― 696, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:49 (eighteen years ago)

oh god the one i always get confused by is 'tipping'

― 696, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:49 (eighteen years ago)

Tipping tapping toeing??

It all sounds the same!!

― Sarah, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:50 (eighteen years ago)

putting a dollar on the bar, putting a dollar in the pocket i just cant tell what is happening

― 696, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:50 (eighteen years ago)

i would say it 'marree meh-re mayree' but you would be hard pushed to hear the difference in the words as i said them.

― blueski, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:51 (eighteen years ago)

thanks guys!

― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:52 (eighteen years ago)

mare-ee not mayree actually

― blueski, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:52 (eighteen years ago)

First, the names Kerry, Carey and Carrie sound identical to me when pronounced in a Canadian (North American?) accent:

x-post, sort of
What are the distinct pronunciations of these names? To me, they're all pronounced like "to carry an object up the stairs."

I had always assumed that the different spellings of this name emerged before English was standardized, or after if someone was a poor speller.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:54 (eighteen years ago)

But Mary and marry DO sound completely different tho Steve - I don't think a Brit speaker *could* confuse them. A strongish Scots "merry" and "Mary" could sound similar if spoken quickly enough...

Argh, OK, I am almost tempted to phone up this American secretary who works somewhere here called Mary and see if I can rig up some scenario to trick her into saying these words..

xposts: Keh-ree, CAAre-ee and Cah-ree is how I'd say those.

― Sarah, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:56 (eighteen years ago)

She is actually a "Mary-Lou", would that change the pronounciation?

― Sarah, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:56 (eighteen years ago)

she might just prefer to be called lou

or mrs johnson

― 696, Friday, 11 May 2007 13:58 (eighteen years ago)

Nope, she is very specifically a "Maaaaaareey-Lou".

― Sarah, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:00 (eighteen years ago)

So (N) Americans pronounce words like merry, Kerry with an A sound?? I'll ask the missus later, although she may be too anglicised by now.

― Colonel Poo, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:01 (eighteen years ago)

what about the name "mhairi"

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:01 (eighteen years ago)

Me Hairy??? Who would name a child THAT!

― Sarah, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:02 (eighteen years ago)

vah-ree

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:03 (eighteen years ago)

yup

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:08 (eighteen years ago)

I will save the day and reupload myself later then transatlantic mary/merry/mary confusion will cease.

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:11 (eighteen years ago)

Anyway, about making Blueski sound like Lee Hazelwood, then.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:13 (eighteen years ago)

yeah i know about the "v" sound, but does it rhyme with "wary" or "starry"

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:18 (eighteen years ago)

starry

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:26 (eighteen years ago)

stah-ree

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:26 (eighteen years ago)

oh right

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:28 (eighteen years ago)

"I didn't think the English LIKED women, from the way they talk"

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/041209/142618__wanda_l.jpg

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:28 (eighteen years ago)

see, cause i distinctly remember someone telling me it rhymed with "gary"

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:28 (eighteen years ago)

gah-ree

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:30 (eighteen years ago)

haha, yeah, it rhymes w/ gary but not w/ vary

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:30 (eighteen years ago)

Okay, brass tacks time.

AdamRL once gave me a slack-jawed askance glare for introducing Gareth to someone as being "from London" (where Gareth was living at the time).

Now I perhaps knew Gareth was not born in London but he was indeed visiting from London, but to Adam (a Jew! from Londontown, England!!! REALLY!!!) this was a bit of a faux-pas.

Is this regional pride? Or something else at work?

Ever since that episode I teased AdamRL a few times for claiming "Oakland" or "San Francisco" instead of "Berkeley" (where I believe he still lives). Not that I get why exactly, it just seemed like proper thing to do.

Note: I haven't done this for a year or two.

Here's the part of the post where I tell the story about how when visiting Uxbridge and hitting a pub (or was it club?) and some girls thought that my (and my fellow American travelling companion's) American accents were faked almost convincingly, as if an American accent is a bit of an exotic attempt for west Londoner blokes to pull?

― Steve Shasta, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:48 (eighteen years ago)

Did it work?

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:49 (eighteen years ago)

no one can escape the wake of steve shasta

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:54 (eighteen years ago)

[Removed Illegal Link]

― jhøshea, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:54 (eighteen years ago)

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0705/this_is_england0502.jpg

― jhøshea, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:55 (eighteen years ago)

"wot? wot? tittays, wot!"

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:58 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/03/24/rickygervais_wideweb__430x322.jpg

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:59 (eighteen years ago)

The mystery solved: marry, merry, Mary

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:10 (eighteen years ago)

I DO NOT KNOW A SINGLE PERSON WHO PRONOUNCES "MARRY" AND "MARY" THE SAME WAY YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL COMPLETELY BATSHIT INSANE WHAT AMERICANS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 11 May 2007 15:14 (eighteen years ago)

sometimes when you fuck up a tag then the rest of the thread is italic

― jhøshea, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:15 (eighteen years ago)

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/mhillebrandt/2005/06/07/beans_on_toast.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:16 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.andythevikingfordham.com/images/gallery/andy_x.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:24 (eighteen years ago)

sexy

― jhøshea, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:25 (eighteen years ago)

uh hey i should just pop in to say that while i generally agree with the schef's exasperated shouting she is pretty much talking about the northeast and us midwesterners do pronounce those words more or less the exact same way.

that said the pronunciation tangent makes no sense at all because there are a billion accents and dialects in both the uk and america so unless you just want to call this "recieved pronunciation vs flat pseudo-midwestern american newsreader accent" it will continue to be entirely pointless and confusing.

― ghost rider, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)

i make no distinction between mary and marry :(

― sleep, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:34 (eighteen years ago)

recieved pronunciation vs flat pseudo-midwestern american newsreader accent" it will continue to be entirely pointless and confusing

qf fucking t.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:37 (eighteen years ago)

My New Jersey-bred friend pronounces the name "Taryn" as Tavern, and "Karen" as Cavern. I am quite sure he also distinguishes Merry, Mary and Marry.

― Bnad, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:40 (eighteen years ago)

most English people insert an 'r' sound between them (without realising they're doing it) and just link the two words together.

Sgs was amazed that the phrase "she put her bra on" elides the last two words into a very definite "braron". It's most obvious in Eastenders - "'ere, wiw ya lendarand wiv me bags lahv" and such and such.

x-post - "Taryn" is a name?!

― Mark C, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:51 (eighteen years ago)

when i was 3 i used to say "bagloshes" instead of galoshes and and "baglasses" instead of molasses

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:52 (eighteen years ago)

btw I am an authentic cockney so my phonetic Eastenders spelling is 100% kosher.

― Mark C, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:55 (eighteen years ago)

x-post - "Taryn" is a name?!

I know a Kiwi girl called Taryn. Mind you, Antipodeans, like Merkins, seem to have big love for Making Names Up Out Of Bloody Nowhere, so who knows?

In which bit of the UK doe people pronounce merry, Mary and marry in any way similarly? That really got me.

I mean, cough bough tough dough through, k'know? Shit is just different.

― CharlieNo4, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:58 (eighteen years ago)

flat pseudo-midwestern american newsreader accent

This is the accent I've been accused of having (though the profession was 'sportscaster').

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:58 (eighteen years ago)

My friend Taryn pronounces her name "terrin", although all her English mates call her "tarrin". Go figure.

― CharlieNo4, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:58 (eighteen years ago)

national healthcare does not translate into quality dental care

― Edward III, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:05 (eighteen years ago)

AdamRL once gave me a slack-jawed askance glare for introducing Gareth to someone as being "from London" (where Gareth was living at the time).

Now I perhaps knew Gareth was not born in London but he was indeed visiting from London, but to Adam (a Jew! from Londontown, England!!! REALLY!!!) this was a bit of a faux-pas.

Is this regional pride? Or something else at work?

Ever since that episode I teased AdamRL a few times for claiming "Oakland" or "San Francisco" instead of "Berkeley" (where I believe he still lives). Not that I get why exactly, it just seemed like proper thing to do.

This reads nice and funny, but neither story is exactly true, is it? Your powers of selective recall are akin to my mother's.

― admrl, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:08 (eighteen years ago)

What's also funny is that Gareth asserts that I'm not even from London, and he might be right.

― admrl, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:09 (eighteen years ago)

you're right, you're from Scotland. my bad.

― Steve Shasta, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

― admrl, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

I DO NOT KNOW A SINGLE PERSON WHO PRONOUNCES "MARRY" AND "MARY" THE SAME WAY YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL COMPLETELY BATSHIT INSANE WHAT AMERICANS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

-- the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, May 11, 2007 11:14 AM (1 hour ago)

uh

― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, I pronounce 'em the same way as well.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:22 (eighteen years ago)

unless I'm gonna get a cryptic response that implies I misread sarcasm in your post and am completely fucking ridiculous, which I halfway expect

― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:23 (eighteen years ago)

We watch Friends.

― jel --, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)

The only American accents I can think of that would do that slight differentiation (may-ree vs. maaaa-ree) would be certain New England ones with big flat As to use. And of course hardly any of us would ever say "murry," unless we were tripping up the emphasis on either "Marie" or "Murray" or getting SUPER St. Louis / Atlanta / Dirty South about it. Like Murphy Lee might say "she got murried," who knows.

Robert Benchley wrote something once complaining that English speech was too musical, and that everyone sounded like they were singing all the time.

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)

dickvandyke.jpg

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 11 May 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)

Kurt Cobain sounds like he's singing mary, marry on some Nirvana song.

― jel --, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

it's buried

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:02 (eighteen years ago)

My ears are kinda blocked.

― jel --, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:03 (eighteen years ago)

we'll i mean he's singing in that Pacific Northwest/Aberdeen accent so i can't say i blame you

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:04 (eighteen years ago)

http://images.scotsman.com/2002/11/18/en1811hindb.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:07 (eighteen years ago)

We're terrible :(

― jel --, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:09 (eighteen years ago)

us midwesterners do pronounce those words more or less the exact same way.

I had a buddy from Kansas City who pronounced "Mary Ann" as "Murryin'".

― Pleasant Plains, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)

http://members.lycos.co.uk/jamiethehut2/henman/tim_henman15.JPG

http://www.blather.net/snackboxdiaries/archives/tim-blank.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:39 (eighteen years ago)

haha

― mookieproof, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:40 (eighteen years ago)

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