Showing your appreciation for solitary members of the opposite sex

There's a difference between behaviour that is complimentary and behaviour that is threatening.

But it can sometimes be a very fine line.

No one deserves to get harrassed for what they are wearing. (Unless, well, they're Momus in a frightwig.)

Compliments are nice, being told that you look attractive, even by strangers, can give you a lift. But when it crosses the line is when people make if physical - the trying to dance with you, following you home, etc. is definitely over that line.

Should you change your behaviour or your clothes becuase of it? The feminist in me says fuck no, that's the old "asking for it" argument. I'm not sure what you can say to men who cross the line, though, as to reply is to open a dialogue which is what they want, and you definitely do *not* want.

<i>Should guys have a bit more consideration for the way their actions may come across? Or should girls put up with it or put the trousers back on?</i>

dude, come on. the former, clearly. it seems best just to ignore that bullshit, though it would be great to have some comeback that would shut them up.

Rumpie and Kate, Sauchiehall Street, yesterday:

http://www.usna.edu/Users/history/scallaha/USMC-HC_files/Solomons%20Flamethrower.jpg

also, rumpie, you shouldn't hesitate to post or start threads.

It's getting to the stage where even the innocuous 'toot toot' from a white van is beginning to feel threatening, ESPECIALLY if the driver is alone.

I quizzed a friend about this, as a former van driver from his teens he said the 'lads' in the van would toot and whistle at girls but it was more of a group activity as such and not something would have felt comfortable doing alone.

Guys, do you ever feel your behaviour may come across as creepy?

Thanks Julia, I felt this was a question that needed input from the ilx masses - sometimes nobody else will do!

Guys, do you ever feel your behaviour may come across as creepy?

ha ha ha ha, hi dere ILE pleased to meet u.

i doubt any guys on ILE would indulge in the kind of behaviour you're describing but there's a whole 'nother level of creepiness that some guys on ILE are more likely to be familiar with or even accused of e.g. excessive complimenting on photos of girls they don't really know (not saying this is OK but it happens), internet stalking, LIKING TEENPOP etc.

This happens to me every single day in our neighborhood. I have about a mile walk home from the bus stop and it makes no difference what I'm wearing I'll hear from 3-6 honks, "hey mami" or catcalls before I get home. If I'm waiting at a light and there's a car of guys next to me they'll be yelling and honking the whole time trying to get my attention. That's scares me a bit. Sometimes guys will even stick their head out the window and crane their neck to watch me as they pass by.

Yes it's annoying, sometimes threatening, but there isn't much I can do about it so I ignore it. In my case, in my area, I think it's a cultural thing. But I'll say no more on that b/c that's the last thing that needs to be brought into what is likely to become a shitfest thread.

Guys, do you ever feel your behaviour may come across as creepy?

Absolutely, which is why I keep my thoughts to myself. Not even "great shoes!" or "nice specs!" passes my lips, never mind a "Golly, you're a real knockout!".

You should leer at men more, Michael, to compensate.

What's the thing about them having to get their boots out, btw? Never quite got that.

foot fetish

I think it's hard for the men to take into consideration what is crossing the lines as it clearly very much depends on what the woman finds threatening. And before you say, well, they should stop it altogether, keep in mind that some women really like it. I don't experience it all that much - especially in my town, it's a more conservative town - but when I do, I am rarely angered by it. The funniest was a homeless guy shout at me when I passed him by:"Nice ass!". I couldn't help but laugh. As long as it's not a lewd comment, I'm okay with it. Maybe because I rarely experience it, I am okay with it? Shit, who knows.

I know that in the back of my mind I'm also rebelling a bit against my own feminism when I say I don't mind it. Now it's also the fact that I know there's nothing much you can do about it.

Ahahah. Haven't I bitched about catcalling enough on here? Rumpie, I'm really sorry -- I know exactly how you feel and it's shit, it's shit. Sometimes it can ruin your whole day (especially if you're on the way TO work, and not home) and it feels like a violation, no question, even tho a relatively small one, because the helplessness alone is thoroughly dehumanizing.

If it's any comfort, in my experience catcalling is strictly a public activity, ie if there are no other men around to witness them being macho, they don't do it. This is how I eventually figured out to stop feeling threatened by it -- it's OKAY to get angry, it's OKAY to talk back to them -- it might not win you any friends and you probably won't get far with a logical argument, but answering back is your RIGHT and I have found that there was never any direct physical threat brought against me. Just the emotional/psychological one of being exposed, possessed, condescended to, and made a fool of in public.

XP: "Nice ass" isn't a lewd comment?

That sounds heavy intimidating, wow I should be grateful I only get leered at when I'm flashing some shin.

Last year a well dressed old gentleman stopped me and said "Excuse me dear, I'd just like to say that you're a lovely looking young lady".

This totally made my day, I grinned all the way home.

I suppose there's some double standards on my part too, if I'm in a shit mood and some wise-ass stranger says "smile!" then I'll growl like an animal, but if I'm in a bright sunny mood and a carful of boys shout or whistle, they might just get a smile back.

But it's the creeps, what do they hope to gain by swivelling 180 degrees like the exorcist to gaze at my stubbly legs? Who do they think it benefits?

I think it's probably fair to say that anything that involves 1) physical contact or 2) following a person is pretty much threatening to everyone, no matter of where they draw their personal lines.

Up to that point, I'm willing to accept the arguments of cultural differences or whatever, but past that point - no. This is totally unacceptable.

x-post I've always found that answering back escalates their behaviour. One of me shouting, vs. a pack of shouting men, this is not a fair contest and they know it.

undercover Gilette street team? (xpost)

Laurel OTM, I just wish there was some knock em dead comment to suit all occasions.

Re what Nath said about not being able to help it, I think is def. true. Sometimes it bothers me (the craning the neck thing or desparately trying to get my attention). But mostly the random honks and catcalls I don't really care about. A lot of times it's young guys and I just think they are being young dumb guys enjoying riding around in their cars.

However it does make me think twice about being out alone in my hood. Walking home on busy streets in the afternoon, fine. Jogging, not so much.

I never talk back though sometimes I would like to. I do fear some of these guys being aggressive. If they think it's their right to yell at me and try to get some interaction they might also think it's their right to cuss me out or threaten me.

Guys, do you ever feel your behaviour may come across as creepy?

i can't think of any situation in which i might 'show appreciation' to a complete stranger, precisely because it would seem creepy.

I'd have thought stubble would keep them at bay :(

i can't think of any situation in which i might 'show appreciation' to a complete stranger, precisely because it would seem creepy.

same here. attractive women are only to be spied on v discreetly from a safe distance and if they do catch your eye you must deploy smokescreen pellets and vamoose.

FMBs perhaps?

Anyway, xpost with Michael. I might look, maybe indulge myself in the odd filthy thought or even (and this would be really pushing it given how shy I am) smile at a woman whom I saw and thought was attractive, but actually commenting on that to them...How rude?!

I suspect that if I were to comment to a random woman about how they looked (and how aesthetically pleasing I thought that might be) I'd have to follow the example of the old guy who talked to rumpie and be terrifically formal and old fashioned about it...And then probably run away blushing furiously.

Appreciative friendly looks, okay, that can be pretty amusing/spring-in-step-inducing for both parties sometimes, but shouting/whistling/looking for contact: utterly dud.

Ignore them, you're better than them. (and you can't hear them because you're wearing earphones, ha!)

XP: "Nice ass" isn't a lewd comment?

As I said, what one will find lewd, another will find funny. The way he said it, I couldn't help but laugh. It was in Atlanta and I felt a more laidback atmosphere (maybe due to me being on holiday).

I do feel that the fact I can't do much about it, is wrong in the sense that I should oppose to it (if I find it creepy or whatever). But I'm not 25 anymore, I'm not that angry anymore. Alas. ;-) That said, I'm not an ultra feminist. I don't agree with Greer that once you put on fuck me shoes, you aren't a feminist anymore.

(and you can't hear them because you're wearing earphones, ha!)

This is what I pretend but in truth I don't listen to my music that loud.

Yeah, nice try! I've been exhausted, unwashed, unshaven, and wearing loose Tshirts and STILL had people walk up and mutter things at me over my shoulder. Give up, it's completely ridiculous. It's not necessary about you looking sexy or pretty or even CLEAN -- it's about a public display of masculinity in which your reaction is most likely to be gratifying to them in some way. I just started flipping people off, for the most part, and would keep walking no matter what they said.

i can't think of any situation in which i might 'show appreciation' to a complete stranger, precisely because it would seem creepy.

same here. attractive women are only to be spied on v discreetly from a safe distance and if they do catch your eye you must deploy smokescreen pellets and vamoose.

I suspect that if I were to comment to a random woman about how they looked (and how aesthetically pleasing I thought that might be) I'd have to follow the example of the old guy who talked to rumpie and be terrifically formal and old fashioned about it...And then probably run away blushing furiously.

LOL at liberal nancy-boys. jeez, it's just innocuous philandering.

LOL at comedy troll

The most important thing that I realized, and I can't emphasize this enough, is that THEY should be carrying the burden of shame for their behavior, NOT YOU. I was letting total strangers with nothing to lose eat away at my quality of life, and you just can't do that -- I had to toughen up and shift the burden in my OWN mind. Feeling less like a victim also helped me be better at confronting people without getting completely hysterical (the middle of Fulton Street not being the best place to have a screaming match with a local building superintendent who was shorter than me, twice my age, and distinctly sleazy and reeking of booze at 8am). If you can stay calm and convey your contempt for their behavior without necc attacking them personally, you might actually get through to someone and reach an understanding about mutual respect. Which makes living on the same street and passing them every day a lot easier.

I do not feel a victim or feel shame. Yet I also do not feel the need to educate them. Sometimes it's just not possible nor worth your time.

they're actually shouting "Hey, look at me, I'm a retard!" but the traffic and other background noise makes it sound like a threat.

lol, yes this is true.

WTF Laurel, I never felt as though I am a victim nor that I am in the wrong. It's their hormones talking. *shrug*

I feel like a victim sometimes, I think too deeply about their possible motives.

Then I come home and take it all out on Mr, demanding he tell me the mechanisms of the male mind -

"Why do they do it? Why? You're one! Tell me!"

I'm sure that's true, Sam, but when it was my own neighbors and people I passed at least twice a day, if not every time I left my house, just letting it go all the time stopped being an option.

Motives? They like pretty women and say it out loud.

I'm British, I don't believe in saying things out loud.

I don't think it's that simple, Nath. I think there is something to this "asserting their masculinity" thing.

The non-creepy version of this is to make eye contact, smile, and say, "Hi!" Also, rspectful applause.

I agree with everything Laurel has said on this thread regarding the motivation for catcalling etc. That said, I've learned to tune it out. The incident I can remember most recently that really bothered me was when I was walking near MSG/Penn Station during rush hour one night and a man not only whispered something lewd to me but GRABBED MY ARM! That was ridiculous, scary, and really made me angry. I just shook free and kept walking. I always want to tell these people to fuck off but am afraid of the reactions which is why I've come to just ignore them.

I've never had applause!

xpost

no, one should draw a diagram of your geographical location relative to them and post it to an internet message board so it can laughed about 5 years later.

multiple xpost to Laurel:

I guess this applies more to the situation. I get more cars b/c that's
where I live. Less people walking by on the street b/c we just don't walk.

If I heard more people walking next to me say things, I'm not really sure what I'd do. Although one of most scary moments happened when I lived in Brooklyn.

I was walking home from the 4th Ave. station about 2 in the morning. I passed a newsstand where a bunch of dudes we're sitting around and one of them started following me. He was saying stuff but was obv. fucked up so I couldn't understand. I walked fast to my door but it was hard to open and I was fumbling with it, freaking. Finally I got in and slammed the door just as he caught up. At the time I was thinking "OMG, push-in!" But he was probably just a drunk idiot.

Perhaps a deep Victorian bow if you are truly poleaxed.

Yeah, I don't find over-simplifying very helpful in thinking about this behavior. The fact remains that some men behave this way, and some don't -- what are the differences between the groups? What causes someone to talk about your ass, or your breasts, or to offer you his sexual services, all in public? What can we do to stop (or lessen) the motivation for the behavior? Etc etc.

I try REALLY hard not to be creepy. But if you've got fantastic legs, and you're wearing a short skirt, my eyes have a brain of their own and will wander. I'll certainly try and keep myself to myself tho, anything else is just rude innit.

When I'm feeling in a particularly exuberant mood and it's a sunny day and someone gorgeous is in the street, I will go up and say thank you for how awesome they're looking and how they've made my day better by just existing. I then usually wander off and assume that I've made them happier. Who doesn't like being told they're good looking?

(in all fairness I've only done this twice, both last year, but both times, it was cool)

I am finding that twiddling my new moustache is quite effective.

Also, rspectful applause

I might actually like this.

Yes ENBB, re:touching once when I was standing at my morning stop a homeless man came up and started mumbling to me. At first I smiled and said "good morning" and stuff. Then he started saying stuff like "You that ho that killed your momma? Ain't you? Don't lie." Then he grabbed me on the shoulder and I jumped away. Totally freaked me. Then he went on his way and started hollering at some junior high girls down the street. I yelled down to him to go away and leave them alone but I should have called the police. :(

I am finding that twiddling my new moustache is quite effective.

Sounds like a good idea! When are you in Belgium again?

I serious though, behaviour such as this makes me feel uncomfortable in the public sphere, just as a bystander so I can only try an imagine how that can feel to the person it is directed at. I have no answers as to what to do, I've never tried challenging it as a third person, perhaps I ought to.

(to StanM, yesterday)

i can't think of any situation in which i might 'show appreciation' to a complete stranger, precisely because it would seem creepy.

In Britain, yes. But not in some Latin countries, where's there's a sort of tradition of "gallantry" towards young women. I have an Argentinian friend who lived in London and she said it felt strange to her that no men in public places would ever smile at her, try to engage her in conversation etc., and it made her feel invisible and she missed the attention she'd get on Buenos Aires streets! My French cousin has said something a bit similar. (She also said she has no problem ignoring the more "unwelcome" attention, but then again my feeling is that French women have rhinoceros hides.)

Obviously the attention one gets from male strangers in the UK is almost always the unwelcome, aggressive sort. But maybe we're missing out because we have no culture of "benign gallantry", as exists in some Latin countries.

I will smile at people who catch my eye, sometimes they smile back.

As I said, location/culture matters.I'm no longer a member/soldier in the gender war. You can ALWAYS second guess these guys (and other things). I no longer have the energy to do that. Then again I never really opposed openly to it. I did think about it and I do find it interesting to know why but I know that even knowing the motivations won't stop'em from doing it. I'm sure they don't realize that women can be so upset about it as they see it as a positive comment. It's not like they are saying you filthy slag. That said, I would not appreciate it if they touched me or made lewd (read: sexual) comments. That's crossing the line for me. But unlike Laurel, I don't want to make'em stop as I realize that's not possible. That fight is futile.

I also realize that sometimes if you are upset by it, taht it might be *you* (having a crap day, insecure about yourself,...)

Zelda touching on the cultural issues I mentioned upthread.

*stares*

I can sort of understand missing the attention if you come from a culture with its own tradition, but you can't count on that in New York or other US cities -- there's so much mixing and so many disparate traditions, and everyone's expectations are different.

As far as the fight being "futile" and without indentifiable causes, there is DEFINITELY a correlation between men feeling disempowered by systems, norms, opportunities, and taking their social insecurity out on others. Poverty, racism, ignorance -- there are so many reasons never to stop working to resolve these things, keeping women down is just one of the symptoms that hits closer to home for me. But then, y'know, it's not my life that looks like a dead end from where I'm standing, so really, what do I have to lose by fighting?

As long as you feel safe in doing so. I truly don't. I live in a violent neighborhood and wouldn't put it past some of these guys to pull over and slap me or yank me into their car.

xpost Uh and sometimes they are just horny. I mean, why over-analyze this? Sometimes a banana is just a banana.That said, if you live in a neighborhood like Sam's then I'd feel more worried about their comments.

Srsly, a man with a job and a life and a measure of his own success is not standing in front of the Dean Street deli at 8.15 on a Thursday morning just to tell all the women passing what he thinks of their asses.

XP: Hmm yeah, Crown Heights wasn't violent in THAT way (altho it was in others). The masculine thing was separate from the drug or gang violence.

i think if straight men learnt to perceive themselves as the viewed as well as the viewers, that might make some of them think twice about obnoxious behaviour like this.

this is why i am in favour of men being sexually objectified, it is SOCIALLY BENEFICIAL.

NATHALIE, a man being horny or finding you attractive is NOT synonymous with expressing his feelings to you, a total stranger, in public! What is so hard to grasp about this??

well, as with anything, it depends on the person's personality/motivation, yeah - are these actions/words coming from a place of abuse and control and bullshit or are they coming out attraction and respect, as with the 'excuse me u r v prettty bye' stuff - it's usually pretty easy to tell the difference, i think. e.g., i've known plenty of guys who've worked construction and haven't participated in cat-calling or participated once as a group bonding thing and felt really terrible about it.

some people behave like assholes, whether out of insecurity or whatever, and take it out on other people/society, and some people behave like respectful human beings. (i am actually more worried about the sociopaths who do the latter, as they can be hard to spot and keep out of one's life.)

and i wouldn't say it's 'innocuous' group male behaviour - that doesn't make it okay - because it has an impact, even if one woman doesn't feel too affected by it, another woman does, as laurel has said, it can ruin a day no matter how much you try to let it go, rationalize its stupidity.

i have a very "get out of my fucking world you fucks, who do you think you are intruding in my life" attitude. which also translates to "die die die". it is a good thing i don't have a gun or laser-destructo vision or knife-fine wire that shoots from my wrists and wraps around people's necks.

yeah, i do yoga n stuff for a reason

land of xposts

quite like the applause idea

As long as you feel safe in doing so. I truly don't. I live in a violent neighborhood and wouldn't put it past some of these guys to pull over and slap me or yank me into their car.

My neighborhood isn't all that bad and I feel the same way. This could be because the bus I ride is basically a BUS full of complete NUTCASES and a woman on said bus actually freaked out and hit me last year for no reason. Since then I'm nervous about all strangers and what might provoke them to just flip out.

Yeah I do agree with Laurel that most of this behavior (not all, but the majority) is more about "I'm a man and I have a right to say or do whatever the fuck I want to you" than any physical appearance. This is why I can be out in a baggy mavericks shirt and old jeans and get just as many comments. A lot of is the same mentality that fuels rape, which of course not about sex.

Oh Rrrrobyn, if you only knew! -- I have had fantasies about pinning people to the wall by their necks and making them sorry they ever opened their mouths that were far more satisfying than anything more risque. :)

But maybe we're missing out because we have no culture of "benign gallantry", as exists in some Latin countries.

i thought 'we' did, at least among certain sections of society, in the past. but it's been eroded i suppose.

True, Steve, but I'm suspicious even of that "benign gallantry", because it came with a lot of really loaded assumptions about men and women in ways that just might not have been played out in public. So...thanks, but no thanks.

lol i was just about to say almost the say thing! but more like: this so-called 'benign gallantry' can also be v creepy to me

"Srsly, a man with a job and a life and a measure of his own success is not standing in front of the Dean Street deli at 8.15 on a Thursday morning just to tell all the women passing what he thinks of their asses."

maybe he OWNS the delhi.

quite like the applause idea

-- blueski, Thursday, 7 June 2007 14:04 (1 second ago) Bookmark Link

So do I. Along with a very respectful "Well done!"

I very much doubt I'd be able to overcome my crippling reticence in the face of attractive members of the distaff enough to even do that much.

I get the feeling class and race and gentrification play into this a lot - the other day I saw a very hot woman, who was white, walking down the street ahead of me (admittedly, I was staring), and as she passed a store, one of the young Dominican guys that was outside on his break said something to her - something like "Hey baby how you doin?" or "What's your name" or something not all the way on the far end of the lecherousness scale. And the woman just kept walking, and the other guy said to the first guy "You see, they're so stuck up."

Now I can't blame the woman at all for not acknowledging them - if I were her I probably wouldn't either. But clearly the woman felt more threatened because here she is in a gentrifying area that's still heavily Dominican and black, and even though it's where she lives it's essentially unfamiliar territory. Meanwhile the two young guys have been watching people with more money than them -- mostly white people -- pour into *their* neighborhood and most of them are probably not particularly friendly, and on top of that the guys are probably used to women from their own background not getting particularly offended or creeped out if they just make a benign comment. And they're probably a bit angry and frustrated about all of this.

and now that woman's angry and frustrated too

Of course. And I don't doubt there's often hostility behind *benign* comments to begin with.

ALL MEN get annoyed and frustrated when women ignore them!

I'm not sure why you assume Dominican and black women don't get creeped out by random men commenting on their bodies?

Hurting, do you think she would have felt any differently if the commentors were white? Also, how do you know she was angry or frustrated. She could have just been ignoring it like many of us say they do.

ohno men are annoyed and frustrated at being ignored what will we ever do abt these poor ignored men

Hilariously, the people who OWNED the deli were really courteous, helpful, good-hearted muslim men from Yemen, Lebanon, and assorted places, who kept halal, were good neighbors, and kept an eye on the 5 kids from the Balgladeshi family upstairs. When one of them had a thing for me, he asked my male roommate if Ben would mind conveying his compliments to me and requesting my permission to pay me his attention. Which was awkward, but completly charming and amazing!

XP: ahhahahahaha

Now that is proper gentlemanly behaviour.

All men need to start wearing hats/caps again so that we can just DOFF them to any comely maidens we happenst pon.

Meanwhile the two young guys have been watching people with more money than them -- mostly white people -- pour into *their* neighborhood and most of them are probably not particularly friendly, and on top of that the guys are probably used to women from their own background not getting particularly offended or creeped out if they just make a benign comment. And they're probably a bit angry and frustrated about all of this.

i can't even begin to express how LITTLE sympathy i have for them, even if this is the case. they can go suck a dick.

i never give girls compliments:D

"Srsly, a man with a job and a life and a measure of his own success is not standing in front of the Dean Street deli at 8.15 on a Thursday morning just to tell all the women passing what he thinks of their asses."

maybe he OWNS the delhi.

I was just about to say. Way to look down on these guys and generalize. I have had *successful* men make lewd comments. You can get all analytical about it, but at the end of the day (even though his cultural background will play a role in how he expresses this) he is merely saying he thinks you are a hottie. SFW. As long as they are not going past that, CHILLAX (urgh did I just type that?). It ain't worth the energy cause, quite frankly, if it fucks up your day (or whatever amount of time), then you are the one who lost. I mean, he forgot all about you the moment he lit his cig and turned around.

Also, ladettes to thread.

Well, I guess I don't know if she was angry or frustrated - that was what Robyn suggested.

I don't think it would have made a difference if they were white and we were in a gentrifying Italian neighborhood instead of Dominican. But I think it would have been different if she grew up in the neighborhood and was from the same background.

horseshoe that's a good point but: i have a (white, female) friend who spent a year in the DR and she was overwhelmed by the comments she heard. she said it almost felt like guys had a sense of OWNERSHIP of any woman walking by. even growing up in new york she was just completely unprepared for the level of comment she got. so maybe women who grow up there actually aren't "creeped out" by the majority of such comments (but something else? resigned? irritated?)

maybe people just need to talk to people like they are actually people maybe, with lives and aspirations and feelings

"I'm not sure why you assume Dominican and black women don't get creeped out by random men commenting on their bodies?"

exactly. i know plenty (well some) girls who just dont like being stared at or being leered at by guys from their own race, background, whatever, it doesnt matter who it is.

saying that though, it just depends on how its done. leering is leering.

"just to tell all the women passing what he thinks of their asses."

maybe he could fill out feedback forms and give it to the women so they wouldnt be offended and could read his evaluation in their own time? less pressure?

guys guys guys it is ALL about the eyebrow raise + ambiguous smile

gross

"maybe people just need to talk to people like they are actually people maybe, with lives and aspirations and feelings"

why do this though when there are asses to be commented on?

My neighborhood isn't all that bad and I feel the same way. This could be because the bus I ride is basically a BUS full of complete NUTCASES and a woman on said bus actually freaked out and hit me last year for no reason. Since then I'm nervous about all strangers and what might provoke them to just flip out.

-- ENBB, Thursday, June 7, 2007 10:04 AM (Thursday, June 7, 2007 10:04 AM) Bookmark Link

OMG the 57 amirite. Some random guy grabbed my ass on that bus once. :(

also rrrobyn otm

It's funny really. Why is it not threatening when the guy's goodlooking? Cause, picture it if the guy is *successful* and goodlooking. Would you mind if he did it then?

uh yes

If he was successful and goodlooking he's probably taken and either a) doesn't need to do that stuff or b) shouldn't be. ;)

it's sometimes almost worse then - that's part of what i mean by teh sociopath thing
xpost

being hollered at by random people is pretty much never cool. some days I take it better than others, but I never really enjoy it.

"And they're probably a bit angry and frustrated about all of this."

which is why women who have recently moved into ethnic areas should offer to sleep with at least 1 man of the dominant ethnic group in the area to keep things calm.

*snicker*

basically, women (or men) only like attention from the opp sex if they like the person. its perving if they find them loathsome but complimentary if they like the look of them (well providing their approach isnt terrible of course)

dude you are flat-out wrong.

I don't care if Brad Pitt hollers at me, I don't like being hollered at.

ohgod
xpost
exactly j

What if an attractive guy just saw you on the street, thought you were cute, and decided to see if he could start a conversation with you?

I mean I wouldn't ever do this on the street because I would automatically assume it would make the woman uncomfortable, but what if someone did?

That's a LOT different from whistling, blowing your horn, or shouting.

Looking at girls and commenting w/your friends, without the hot girls being aware of it = this is okay, right? :>

As long as you point a lot, cover your mouths in a really obvious way, and make lots of "psst psst psst" noises.

you guys don't seem to be differentiating between acting like normal humans and acting like horny apes. One of these is okay. The other involves a car horn and shouting.

"dude you are flat-out wrong."

who, me? tell me why plz.

"Looking at girls and commenting w/your friends, without the hot girls being aware of it = this is okay, right? :>"

^^^thought crimes.

hey maybe it's just me but i don't like being hit on by people who are trying to usurp my power - it's pretty obv when this is happening vs when somebody thinks you are cute and wants to say hi how's it going!

i complimented my bus crush's shoes this morning. she smiled and said thanks, then we both sprinted down the ramp to the train platform to catch two trains going in opposite directions. after tomorrow i won't see bus crush anymore, and that's if i even bother coming in.

also, while she does have a nice ass i thought it would be poor form to have that as the first words i ever said to her.

re: attractiveness factor - okay hang on here: some people become more/less attractive depending on their personality
xpost

I hope at some point this thread devolves into FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING FUCK, and that Momus comes back.

You know, I'm going to make one more half-hearted attempt at explaining the obvious, and then I'm just going to start ignorning people. And the obvious is that any marginalized group is going to start to look for its own status indicators, to keep some grip on their perceived places in the world. And when that happens, one indicator of masculinity is very very often related to the status & ownership of women, and a man's supremacy of rights in relation to a woman's. And that once a culture of male supremacy has grown up in any group of people, it starts to seem OKAY and NORMAL and will be adopted even by people who "know better" or who DO have other choices, because their behavior will seem innocuous to them; especially if they adopt a milder version than the other men around. It may look good by comparison, but it is still a problem, and a symptom of a problem. So even a man who is "successful" by community standards (and quite possibly also by my standards! after all, *I* can't afford property in NYC!) and owns property or a business or whatever, can still adopt attitudes toward women that are completely unacceptable if we believe that women deserve equal rights.

i think there is a chance!!
xpost!

i have been listening to a lot of sonic youth in the past two days!

titchy is secretly Momus

i cringe myself when some kid is quietly but persistently harassing some girl on the bus, quizzing her and trying to get her number. pretty much always she seems to not want the attention at all and for them to leave her alone. i only encounter this scenario maybe 3 or 4 times a year tho.

who, me? tell me why plz.

Like I already said, nobody likes to be yelled at/treated like a piece of meat, even if it's by an incredibly goodlooking person. Because if they yell "HEY BABY WHAT YOU DOING?" at me suddenly they probably aren't going to seem so hot. As I, again, already said, it seems like you and others are not differentiating between disrespectful "hollering" and doing what Kevin describes ("Those are really nice shoes *smile*")

Kevin, you should tell her that it's yr last day on the bus and get her number.

haha xpost to blueski

Being persistently quietly harassed is better than being yelled at, though, honestly. It's still creepy as hell but at least I don't feel like an absolute piece of trash.

Kevin, you should tell her that it's yr last day on the bus and get her number.

^^^ THAT

Since you mention it, Hurting, titty, and others, I don't want to speak to ANYONE in public that I don't know: not on the street, not in bars, barely even at my workplace, where technically you are all in "it" together (whatever management has decided "it" is). If I don't know you, or we haven't been brought together by some applicable circumstance like being stuck in an elevator or working on a project together or etc, keep yr thoughts, hands, words to yrself, please. Do not care how cute you are or whether you are a New York City fireman (hi dere Monday night ugh).

xpost Or else say, "nice ass."

Jessie - That was actually on the 66 which is pretty much insane and full of um . . . characters. It happened right as we were getting off at Harvard and Comm. I was so scared I made the drive drop me off across Comm ave in front of the McDonalds and the crazy bitch actually ran across the street screaming at me and started chasing me up Comm Ave. I still sometimes take the 66 to work and see her!

Also - As I, again, already said, it seems like you and others are not differentiating between disrespectful "hollering" and doing what Kevin describes ("Those are really nice shoes *smile*") - EXACTLY!!!!!!

Momus is in Ginza oggling the CHIXORS. Some of these Japanese girls wear the tiniest shorts imaginable and extremely high heels. I can't help but look at'em and wonder why they put themselves in so much pain.

I don't want to speak to ANYONE in public that I don't know: not on the street, not in bars, barely even at my workplace

I feel this sentiment in the depths of my soul.

Now that is a little depressing, Laurel.

xpost, ha

haha i talk to so many people i don't know in public! but y'know, canadian...

I don't care if Brad Pitt hollers at me, I don't like being hollered at.

if someone attractive started hollering i presume the fact that they are hollering would immediately make them much less attractive innit

haha xps

best sort of contact with complete stranger = in the window of a train/bus. if they don't want to respond to your eye-contact, you're just looking out the window. if they do, they'll let you know.

Or they're stoned and staring at everything

i cringe myself when some kid is quietly but persistently harassing some girl on the bus, quizzing her and trying to get her number. pretty much always she seems to not want the attention at all and for them to leave her alone. i only encounter this scenario maybe 3 or 4 times a year tho.

ah have i told u the conversation i overheard once along these lines?? the girl gave the boy her number (both were about 15 i guess), then as he was getting off the bus he was like, so, i'll call you then? and see you soon? and she just said "yeah MAYBE" really sarcastically, and then as he was going down the stairs called "by the way that's my boyfriend's number i gave you"

I also don't like talking to strangers. I am an anti-social weirdo though.

i talk to strangers all the time, of both sexes. but then i may have a finer appreciation for random lunatic conversation than most people. had a great one this past sunday at my local! hilarious.

]I know Robyn!!!! I was trying to learn from yr good example and I am getting a little better, but really I'm just not that interested in making conversation with most people, be they men OR women. When they are men who clearly intend to chat you up it just makes me even more uncomfortably and impatient, like, "Why are we not just human beings to each other? Gawd!"

I have no compunction about paying people compliments, men or women, but I'm unlikely to say anything about their physical appearance, since that's less a question of taste and choice than a genetic luck of the draw, but I might mention your haircut or lipstick color or congratulate you for a shirt and tie that work well together. A compliment shouldn't oblige anyone in the slightest and, given the multitudinous different emotional states a person can be in when complimented, I never expect a response. I only hope I have brightened their day. The most I'll otherwise ever do with a woman who I find hot is to smile at her. People who whistle or catcall or honk horns seem to be 90% cretins, but I've been in circumstances, albeit rare, where women I know have appreciated being thusly admired.

"Like I already said, nobody likes to be yelled at/treated like a piece of meat, even if it's by an incredibly goodlooking person. Because if they yell "HEY BABY WHAT YOU DOING?" at me suddenly they probably aren't going to seem so hot. As I, again, already said, it seems like you and others are not differentiating between disrespectful "hollering" and doing what Kevin describes ("Those are really nice shoes *smile*")"

BABE, i included approach in my original post - i said it depends on approach - like the guy could be desirable but if his approach is fucked, then the girl is gonna run a mile (or casually stride off, depending on her footwear, that someone could comment on in hope of more, but might not lead to more unless someone actually instigates more lecherous convo). i never said a great looking guy could holler and shout at a girl and they would get a phone no straight away.

"I don't want to speak to ANYONE in public that I don't know: not on the street, not in bars, barely even at my workplace"

well how does someone get to know you if you dont speak to strangers?

"best sort of contact with complete stranger = in the window of a train/bus. if they don't want to respond to your eye-contact, you're just looking out the window. if they do, they'll let you know."

this reminds me of that film with steve martin where he meets women but keeps ruining it or losing their details repeatedly.

Hahaha and my standard for being human beings together = hanging out with Ian. If they cannot be cool like Ian, I R not interezted.

XP: I only talk to strangers from the internet.

Why are we not just human beings to each other?

How is flirting less than 'just being human beings'?

xpost - i mean, which is to say, that for all the gross situations of public cat-calls, comes-ons, etc., there are plenty of really good interactions!

like, for instance, last night at 1:30 in the morning i was riding behind this guy on a bike and my bike skipped a gear and i was all click click click grr and at the stop sign the guy told me he was a bike mechanic and said he could look at my bike and i was like, uh, yeah, this guy is okay, i just know that. also, he tuned up my bike cables, srsly, awesome.

i think u did tell me that story before lex yeah. kudos 2 dat gyal.

What if a guy approaches you but then a meteor punches a hole through his forehead and his brains fall out on your breast? Would that be harrassment?

lol laurel - but standards should be high! why waste time on not having a good time / not feeling comfortable / etc

How is flirting less than 'just being human beings'?

I <3 Michael W.

and she just said "yeah MAYBE" really sarcastically, and then as he was going down the stairs called "by the way that's my boyfriend's number i gave you"

haha that is cruel!

xposts M White, ILX's smoovest operator

I don't know anymore, Michael, actually. It's too hard to extricate myself from misunderstandings without hurting people, it seems, so I prefer to keep flirtation out of the way completely and just have a beer and talk about records, instead.

That was a compliment, Michael, and I do hope you didn't take it the wrong way.

Dear World,

Leave me alone.

Sincerely,
Me

It's too hard to extricate myself from misunderstandings without hurting people, it seems, so I prefer to keep flirtation out of the way completely and just have a beer and talk about records, instead.

^^^^ 8080

I also note that when in Paris, it's kind of expected that people will check you out and you, them. It makes for a kind of eye contact and attention that makes people uncomfortable when you come home to the States.

Dear World,

Nice rack

Sincerely,
Count Fuckula

yeah montreal is a big eye contact city too and now i feel kind of weird when i go places that aren't - again, the respect issue is key
xpost

I understand that the ritual greeting for passers-by in Albania is to gently cup the other person's genitals and whisper, "Mmm.... JUICY" into his/her ear.

How is flirting less than 'just being human beings'?

Because there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between flirting and random street harrassment.

It's almost like some of the men on this thread have never ever (obviously) experienced or even witnessed this kind of behaviour, so they are projecting what *they* would be doing in the situation, rather than what is actually happening. It just isn't the same.

Laurel utterly OTM again and again, and really, there isn't any point to say anything further, so I shan't.

xpost haha

so I prefer to keep flirtation out of the way completely and just have a beer and talk about records, instead.

hi, every friday/saturday night where there's not a show this is what me, bill, & jeremy are doing.

I am sad for Kate and Laurel. :-( Also for myself cause I wasted a half hour with this thread. I could have oggled Japanese girls!

The only way I would/have ever flirted with a stranger (outside of parties and such events) is if she's reading a book and I know enough about the book to make some comment or ask some question. Because then it's like "See, I read books too! People who read books can't possibly be creepy! [evil laugh]"

To next year in Tirana!

Thanks, stevienixed. (That's what I always say upon receiving a compliment. It's really easy.)

I like flirtation best when it's implicit that it doesn't oblige either party. It's perfectly fun on its own. If it leads somewhere, so be it, but if it doesn't, it's nice to know that someone admires you for whatever reason; looks, style, wit, humor, taste, to bother with a little badinage.

Sexual harrassment = bad
Respectful compliements = good, mostly
Random flirting = good, sometimes

I dunno - having a chat with a stranger (maybe in a shop queue or in the pub) or at least just making a comment is what makes the world go round as far as I'm concerned. Where's the harm? I is kind of depressing that there doesn't seem to be a distinction between harrassment and just you know, passing the time of day, for some people.

In a pub I might say something vaguely flirtatious or complimentary, but hopefully never offensive, to an attractive woman if she was at the bar next to me. I don't see the harm. No-one's ever told me to fuck off.

A lot of people are really bad at flirting tho. I mean if it was all a jolly Wildesque banter like I am sure it is with M. White, we'd all be flirting all the time.

now i feel kind of weird when i go places that aren't - again, the respect issue is key

Yes and yes.

Michael White: Not A Scrub

TS: staring vs. protracted gazing at women in public.

I meant "It is kind of depressing....

I enjoy eye contact and conversation with strangers! As long as I can think of a pithy enough opening line, I don't hesitate to engage. I'm a great believer in the philosophy of Roger Campbell (lead character in Roger Dodger); you must understand that sexual desire is omnipresent, and to exist comfortably within such an environment, one must understand the ways in which people of the desired gender present themselves.

I'd quite like to go out for a night on the town with Michael. Better still, to a haberdasher's and an outfitter's first.

M. White totally OTM.

updated wildesque banter is like my favourite kind of flirting! i mean, mostly, if someone isn't making me laugh, i am kind of wary

i don't know, hollering doesn't bother me. it's much easier to ignore than more physically intrusive creepiness (which happens often enough in the cities i've lived in) AND there is really nothing we can do about besides move to gated suburbs/rural farming communities and not taking public transportation. so i manage to just tune it out as long as it's harmless and not physically threatening. it's not ideal but it's adaptive.

I dunno - having a chat with a stranger (maybe in a shop queue or in the pub) or at least just making a comment is what makes the world go round as far as I'm concerned

no way, i'm with all the "strangers: do not want communication with" brigade. 90% of the time headphones save me from random conversations but if they don't i'm not averse to giving them sneery looks and then blanking them completely.

er unless they're hot.

a jolly Wildesque banter like I am sure it is with M. White

Oh, I wish it were. Still, a man must have some ambitions, so I try.

I think it's obvious that touching people, in general, isn't cool.

I also think it's obvious that crass comments are usually not cool (where "usually" means "999 times out of 1000").

I don't fully get why people are arguing on this thread in the face of the above opinions, which is why I am mostly posting nonsense; there seems to have been a gigantic defensive reaction on both sides that I think is wholly unnecessary.

i feel sorry for any men that feel they are treading over womens civilian rights by merely looking at them appreciatively. (although yes i am aware that appreciatively in one persons head can become weird horrid almost contemptuous perv in the receivers head)

Flirting for flirting's sake, with no intended 'result' on either side, is a thouroughly rewarding activity. Besides, if one meets one's conversational sparring-partner again at a later date, one is already well-conditioned to their style.

xpost to Dan Hey, its ILX. If it weren't for this thread, we'd either be oggling strangers or... working.

Flirting for flirting's sake, with no intended 'result' on either side, is a thouroughly rewarding activity.

could not agree with you more.

man you people are bold

It's almost like some of the men on this thread have never ever (obviously) experienced or even witnessed this kind of behaviour,

Out of the 3 dudes (including myself) I hung out with last night 2 of us have been the target of lewd comments.

Also, I have taken my fear of offending women to the point of acting completely disinterested when they engage me in conversation :( Stupid.

Flirting is too much work for me these days, with no gain. It also encourages habits in myself that I don't like, or am at least wary of. So I am kind of nixing it, for now, and maybe for a while. Oh well.

Still, a man must have some ambitions, so I try.

be careful, ambition killed caesar.

I also note that when in Paris, it's kind of expected that people will check you out and you, them. It makes for a kind of eye contact and attention that makes people uncomfortable when you come home to the States.

I think the French do all this stuff differently, not necessarily better, but differently. When I'm there I get the impression that relations between the sexes is like this elaborate game that's happening everywhere, on the metro, in the workplace, on the street. I think the French have slightly less sense of personal space too.

no way, i'm with all the "strangers: do not want communication with" brigade. 90% of the time headphones save me from random conversations but if they don't i'm not averse to giving them sneery looks and then blanking them completely

As I said, this is nuts and depressing. WHY? Most people are just fine to talk to.

Mind you last time I saw you, you completely blanked me. No wait, you were unconscious!

(Sorry!)

Out of the 3 dudes (including myself) I hung out with last night 2 of us have been the target of lewd comments.

From women or men? Just curious.

Flirting is too much work for me these days, with no gain.

again, 99 times out of 100 it is it's own reward. truthfully i have not been flirting with anyone for a while. last time i did i think the woman turned out to be a lesbian (i have TREMENDOUS instincts). but even then, when her partner showed up we still had a nice conversation and they bought me many many shots of jameson.

I have had *successful* men make lewd comments.

Ugh, yes. City boys on mass are just wankers. Getting the Docklands Light Railway from Bank (Financial Area 1) to Canary Warf (Financial Area 2) on a Thursday or Friday night is awful. They only break off their truly wonderful conversations about strip clubs they've taken clients to, how to get away with drink driving and their new second homes, to make lewd comments about nearby women.

I don't like talking to strangers but that's mostly because I fear making myself look foolish or desperate, not because I think people aren't worthy of my time

I've gotten lewd comments from dudes, and I was pretty flattered but mostly because that never happens to me in daily life.

If I'm not in the mood to converse/flirt/engage with people, my body language will clearly show it. If you can't read my body language, I'll use verbal language. I certainly look for cues when I'm tempted to pay a compliment and if someone doesn't look receptive (in other words, if I think that it won't brighten their day), I'll refrain.

People like compliments but they don't like to be objectified. Navigating between the two poles and figuring out the details are exactly what makes human life a little unpredictable and thus worth living.

Anna, yes, exactly. Had the same thing happen to me. I do realize that me being upset by it was more due to the fact I felt insecure around'em. Now I don't give a shit anymore.

Out of the 3 dudes (including myself) I hung out with last night 2 of us have been the target of lewd comments.

WTF. I never realized taht men were the recipients of lewd comments. (I'm being totally serious.)

I like how the fact Michael and Dr C contradic Laurel's views on men making *compliments* (hahah I am throwing out bait here!)

The only way I would/have ever flirted with a stranger (outside of parties and such events) is if she's reading a book and I know enough about the book to make some comment or ask some question. Because then it's like "See, I read books too! People who read books can't possibly be creepy! [evil laugh]"

-- Hurting 2, Thursday, 7 June 2007 14:48 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

hahaha
Tried that once. She was reading Germinal, I asked her whether she'd read J'Accuse and received a look of blank incomprehension. I gave up after that.

The only books I have seen are ones by Dan Brown. I'm not really eager to let'em know I read that trash. hahaha

haha i pursued a girl for four months, dated, went to movies, went on walks, wrote besotted acrostic love-poems, found my heart's desire...unfortunately, she found herself as well, and wound up in a long-term relationship (still going!) with another girl.

she had been bisexual, before she met me.

dude what does that have to do with anything

hahhaahahahaa

haven't read most of this thread so apologies if someone already said it

half the time this is obviously like they're just *expected* to say something, to try it on, like they're not male if they don't

this has always worked nicely for me - if you're walking past a gang of lads and one/more of them does the leery "hello sexy" or "evenin gorgeous" or whatever you just go "hello petal" or "alright chicken" in the same way you might to a toddler, and then they shut up but don't get aggressive

xpost Posted this to the wrong thread. Should have been on the sunglasses one.

that was a response to chicago kevin's remark: last time i did i think the woman turned out to be a lesbian (i have TREMENDOUS instincts)

She was reading Germinal, I asked her whether she'd read J'Accuse and received a look of blank incomprehension. I gave up after that.

Better gambit is to ask if she's read Nana or Au Bonheur des Dames. ;)

As I said, this is nuts and depressing. WHY? Most people are just fine to talk to.

Because I don't want to. Why is this nuts or depressing? Why should I feel compelled to talk to other people if I personally don't feel the need?

I have actually had girls "catcall" me a couple of times - but it's such a rare occurrence that I find it nothing but flattering. Besides, it's just not the same dynamic ("OMG - a carful of girls. What if they pull me into their car and take advantage of me? PLEASE GOD LET IT HAPPEN!")

Also, I have taken my fear of offending women to the point of acting completely disinterested when they engage me in conversation :( Stupid.

Yeah, the guys who generally don't need to worry about offending women have had these issues so well imprinted on their psyches that it can be kind of paralyzing. I should probably add "catcalling" to the things I need to do before I die list.

Then I come home and take it all out on Mr, demanding he tell me the mechanisms of the male mind -

"Why do they do it? Why? You're one! Tell me!"

This is probably a subject for a different thread, but it really makes me mad when my wife does this. I will not stand trial for All the Crimes of Men. I'll sympathize and offer a shoulder while she works through her anger, but I won't take the blame.

Perhaps she just wants your insight.

I used to be an enthusiastic flirt, and a chronic one, and take elaborate pains to strike the right note, return a good serve, riposte away, etc. But eventually I found that I was starting to derive my own value from my desirability, that the number of people who can/will play along in any satisfying way wasn't v large to begin with, and that the game itself is not enough for me. So all in all, that way lies neurosis and self-devaluation and I am steering clear.

btw I never make crude/lewd remarks, but I enjoy cordially conversing about the saucier things in life. Expertly-deployed double entendre is most definitely a good thing as well.

emsk's post makes me realize that I'm always fascinated by the various strategies that women employ to diffuse the nastier side of male attentions.

Oh, and I flirt with lesbians all the time. Why not?

haha i pursued a girl for four months, dated, went to movies, went on walks, wrote besotted acrostic love-poems, found my heart's desire

you might have been better off c-ing on t's

Sam: Yes, but she's generalizing: seeing all men as basically the same. Very wrong.

don't be so vulgar, 696

wanting insight, yes, but there's a bit of insult that amounts to insinuating that you share the mindset of a bunch of catcalling/leering pervs

Oh, and I flirt with lesbians all the time. Why not?

indeed but this particular time playing for the sake of the game wasn't what i was after. i was tragically (and, sadly, characteristically) mistaken.

So all in all, that way lies neurosis and self-devaluation and I am steering clear.

I understand thoroughly but moderation seems better than teetotalling to me.

Cumming on tits? I'm a moron for not getting what G's saying, right? :-(

LJ would never make such a crude remark, Gareth. He would instead say, "Dear lady, in that you have revealed you are of the sapphic persuasion, I humbly inquire as to if I should have requested to spread my man mayo all over your twin peaks?"

Shame I missed out on the beginning of a thread that I would have really liked to participate in. I apologize if anything I say is redundant, then.

I'm so entirely aware of this "dudes are creepy" phenomenon that I've got less than zero confidence around strangers to the point where if a girl is making repeated eye-contact with me on the bus or metro, I will go out of my way to find a window or screw in the wall to stare at for the duration of the trip. I think it's partly because of not wanting to be creepy or aggressive (I hate when dudes are creepy/aggressive with me, which happens more in the "fighty" way vs the "fucky" way, so I imagine it is similar for ladies with the "fucky" way). If a girl speaks to me first or something, then I can usually find a witty, friendly and non-threatening response that leads to further conversation, but even sometimes there are people I've spoken to before who I can't work up the courage to speak to again for fear of being aggressive.

This doesn't lead to getting many any dates, and it's getting to the point where I'm okay with that because "at least I'm not that asshole guy."

Ironically, I am often on the receiving end of "lewd" comments from males and/or females, and most of the time I love the attention. I can just never bring myself to do it.

Curtis -- EXACTLY.

vascillating btwn misanthropy and friendliness is basically how i live my life - as m white said, if you or others wanna be left alone, that's how it is, and reading signals is key (tho yeah sometimes difficult for some but ya gotta practice anyway)
xpost
i wld flirt with liv tyler
xpost

M. White is so OTM about Paris. The eye contact there is like va-va-voom, it feels great!

I know, maybe my sense of balance will come back to me at some point. But there's so much to do in the world, I don't have time to worry about it much!

LJ would never make such a crude remark, Gareth. He would instead say, "Dear lady, in that you have revealed you are of the sapphic persuasion, I humbly inquire as to if I should have requested to spread my man mayo all over your twin peaks?"

-- jessie monster, Thursd

well as long as he c'd on t's before she fell asleep waiting for someting to happen

courting on tittage

will, the window will only lead you BACK to eye contact

Offed what do you mean?

I am often on the receiving end of "lewd" comments from males and/or females, and most of the time I love the attention.

i think the problem with me is that i would never want to have anything to do with anyone who would make a lewd random comment to a stranger.

WTF. I never realized taht men were the recipients of lewd comments. (I'm being totally serious.)

Absolutely. This happens all the time! Not just comments - being rubbed against suggestively and having your arse grabbed are two recent experiences. Both in pubs.

ha ha 'man mayo'

OK i should get out more

kevin, I hear you. :(

It actually makes me nervous when I suspect that flirting ISN'T just play. It reminds me of being a desperately horny adolescent and I'm inclined to muster all my strength to make sure that I don't come across as too 'serious' about flirting, even if I am intrigued.

Sam: Yes, but she's generalizing: seeing all men as basically the same. Very wrong.

Not knowing her, I would not assume this.

My arse, I mean.

your arse?

I'm inclined to muster all my strength to make sure that I don't come across as too 'serious' about flirting, even if I am intrigued.

^^^ take notes, this is how you get laid

Will, I mean that on the train/bus, reflections are the flirtist's friend.

I'm sure being M White helps, too.

x-post : grabbed (my arse).

Ahh Michael, and there's one of the reasons I don't do it anymore.

xpost STOP TALKING ABOUT YOUR ARSE

leave his arse alone.

stop saying "arse" I do not type in my accent, you shouldn't either.

m white otm re: flirting - so many fine lines! but do-able

i think the lewdest comment i've ever made to a stranger was something like "how are you so totally CUTE?!"

Sam: Then I come home and take it all out on Mr, demanding he tell me the mechanisms of the male mind

I have never in my life made a lewd comment toward a man. I thought that was reserved for 45 yo female alcoholics/cougars.

male human mind

i enjoyed Que's British arse impression.

wait. cougars?

totally had me fooled!

xpost

There's an appreciably fine line between 'lewd' and 'saucily forward'. It takes some distinction, but I believe it's possible to navigate that line in relative safety.

COUGARS

if some cougar hollered at my arse on the street i'd kick it's face off.

Oh yeah, that. Sometimes I try and see if the person is trying to make eye contact with me via reflection, but most don't try so it's a 'safe' place.

Oh, here's a funny story. I recently asked a female friend what to do in these situations where a cute girl is looking at me. My current 'thing' is looking away as soon as possible and maybe cautiously glancing several seconds later, hoping they aren't still looking at me. This friend recommended smiling back-- non-threatening but also welcoming. Well, I was too nervous for this, so I tried thinking "Oh, Marmaduke" because Marmaduke is funny enough to maybe half-smile, but not funny enough to bust out laughing or anything. then I thought of Will Forte's dancing in the Peyton Manning NCAA SNLsketch and it was too much... I had to bite my lip to avoid laughing for the rest of the trip.

I'm not good at this, huh :P

Laurel, it's more of defense mechanism than anything. If I'm really interested, you'll know. Eventually I'll say something scandalous, but hopefully funny too, that I'll hope comes across as explicit enough about my interest. I'm not a fan of the hard sell, is all.

xp 2 infinity btw

x-post I wouldn't know jessie, since I have to yet to read one of your posts. Apart from that contribution, which I thank you for.

haha aw
xpost to will m

if some cougar hollered at my arse on the street i'd kick it's face off.

See, I'd just doff my cap, say, "Why, thank you, Ma'am," and continue on my merry way.

oh I am just joking Dr. C, it's all love over here.

I forgot to add the part where it turned out that Marmaduke wasn't funny at all and I got more nervous, but you get the gist of it

now you've embarassed me Michael.

classy ^^^xpost to M.White

gtg folks, it's been emotional

serious flirting is usually pretty hilarious and awkward and horrible and doesn't happen enough.

the worst is that smile from the cute girl who is actually looking at her friend behind you ><

The thing is when the weather gets warm and the skirts come out I AM thinking a lot of lewd thoughts and I'm not exactly thinking "I'd really like to know her mind better" about every single attractive woman I see. So it's mainly a matter of having some capacity for empathy that I would never catcall, not to mention self-discipline and upbringing.

Nath, I was replying to Rock, about *his* wife, who had not shared her side with us. It was a throw-away comment to him. I am not so dense to not understand what he was getting at.

Reflections in the subway can be awesome; three station long zipless fuck.

(because God knows inside I'm making all kinds of looney-tunes wolf noises)

you're so money, bnw!

Hurting so OTM.

I'll ad to that chorus...

If some cute lass is making eye contact with me it makes me feel happy, so I smile.

http://www.animationbuddy.com/Animation/Creatures_and_Cartoons/Cartoon_Characters/wolf.gif

I must not be looking in the reflections right. For me they're more like "all of the making sure I'm not being looked at with none of the scary looking at people."

But yeah, I know the looney-tunes-wolf-noises-in-head feeling. Curse this increasingly favourable climate.

my only other coworker occupying this office with me during these hours has stated "my father didn't raise be to be no meatgazer" which I think is an awesome phrase

just btw

http://base58.com/ilx/myreaction.jpg

Hurting, yesterday.

xpost Oh sorry jessie. Sense of humour failure or something. Kick me up the ARSE.

STOP TALKING ABOUT YOUR ASS

xxpost

On Ilx, I believe, someone once told me they thought
of me as the lady that wolf is whistling at. I found it amusing.

I wish I could find a gif of the one where it shakes its face back and forth and goes "ABBBUBBUBBEEEBUBBAAAYYAAABUBBABBEEEBUBBAYYAAAY"

that's the one I find most accurate b/c it's like "BRAIN BEING SCRAMBLED BY HOTNESS"

an animated gif of when Bart thumps shoe on table and breaks a plate over his head would also be good.

fyi guys I found out that the best way to ask a girl out is to have a lesbian do it for you

why stop there?

Has anyone seen the work of Maggie Hadleigh-West? She films street harassers who get all upset about it.

Also related: Holla Back NYC

Ooh, I just read upthread about people doing the internet equiv of this like complimenting photos online and internet stalking and stuff. That's kind of interesting to me as well. I tried the whole online dating thing very briefly and just once (and on a free site, not paying thx)... and I couldn't even handle that. It just felt too aggressive sneding people messages responding to their "interests" in their profiles which afaik is the whole point!

Roze, Hadleigh-West's film about street harrassment is called War Zone and is excellent. I don't think it's been distributed at all though -- can you only see it at a showing?

will, i think most people only put profiles on dating sites because they want you to look at them and show interest - i don't think anyone would think you were being overly aggressive for sending a polite message. the worst that could happen is being ignored.

i can't believe how many people hate talking to strangers. what a lonely life! i would much rather feel some sort of agency in my own social life rather than rely on 'circumstances' to solely dictate who i know

I'd just like to recall here one of my favorite memories of showing appreciation for a solitary member of the opposite sex. Manhattan, 6th Ave and Spring St., ca. 1997: a leggy, well-dressed woman in sunglasses, carrying a small briefcase in one hand, raises her other hand to the air in an elegant but futile effort to call a cab. At that moment a white van is also in the stream of traffic from which she's hoping her outstretched hand will summon a taxi, and the two dudes inside the cab lean out their windows and, as if in response, wave back at her (with big grins on their faces, obv)

ooh I would really like to find out if I vcan get my hands on that movie xpost

deej so so sooo otm

http://yomaggie.com/films.html

i don't talk to strangers precisely BECAUSE i want agency over my social interaction!

i would much rather feel some sort of agency in my own social life rather than rely on 'circumstances' to solely dictate who i know

OTM, I'm trying to get better at this

xpost

i don't talk to strangers precisely BECAUSE i want agency over my social interaction!

But if you choose to talk to strangers, that's agency.

deej, some people are more extroverted than others. It's precisely the empathy about people different from oneself that's at the crux of this thread.

What Lex said.

I have a partner, I have a small group of friends and family. I am not lonely. I just don't care for small talk or getting to know random people.

oh IF i chose to talk to strangers that's agency - but i don't want them exercising their agency over me. i find most of the other manifold ways of meeting new people far more rewarding that communication w/ random freaks off the street.

http://yomaggie.com/films.html

-- Laurel, Thursday, June 7, 2007 3:49 PM (2 minutes ago)

The quote at the very end of that trailer is the best argument for never catcalling.

Thank you. I mean that. The day I saw that film I went afterwards to hang out with my then-boyfriend and some of his friends and one of them said to me "But it's not like that when *I* do it. *I'm* not dangerous to women." and I wanted to KILL/MAIM/HURT/CRY. This, from a 6'3" Viking who took very, very thoughtful care of his girlfriend and was obviously a "good" guy, but to whom it had never occurred that women don't know if you're dangerous or not, and we have to assume that you ARE because the penalty for being wrong is far too severe.

oh IF i chose to talk to strangers that's agency - but i don't want them exercising their agency over me.

In a world where extroverts and social butterflies like me are quite forward, and people, like, say, Sam, are more reserved, one has to make small allowances for people to be the kind of people they are. Yes, strangers importuning me can be annoying, especially if they're the kind of solipsistic, tactless, body-language illiterates, but that's exactly why we've developped manners and I'm perfectly capable of defending myself from people 'over-exercising their agency' on me.

because the penalty for being wrong is far too severe.

:(

What Lex said.

I have a partner, I have a small group of friends and family. I am not lonely. I just don't care for small talk or getting to know random people.

-- Ms Misery, Thursday, June 7, 2007 3:54 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yeah i don't mean to imply that i take issue with people who just don't want to talk to me or whatever, if you send a signal like yr not interested in talking, normal people should be able to read those signals. But the idea that you should never be approached period is an unreasonable expectation, i think

What Lex said.

I have a partner, I have a small group of friends and family. I am not lonely. I just don't care for small talk or getting to know random people.

-- Ms Misery, Thursday, June 7, 2007 11:54 AM (11 minutes ago)

This was kinda me before I moved for a job, and now I have only acquaintances and no skill in meeting new people :) :/ :(

How about we just agree that having yr nose in a book should be taken as a signal that normal people should be able to translate as "leave me alone." Because that would work out really well for me.

??? what if they're reading your favorite book

In a world where extroverts and social butterflies like me are quite forward, and people, like, say, Sam, are more reserved

for me, it's not nec to do with the type of person i am - in the right situation i can be v extroverted, and i'd call myself a social butterfly too. but i don't really consider the times when i'm by myself in public social situations, even if there are people around.

How about we just agree that having yr nose in a book should be taken as a signal that normal people should be able to translate as "leave me alone." Because that would work out really well for me.

or HEADPHONES. it's unbelievable, the number of people who try to talk to you even though you have headphones in. it makes me gape in amazement at them.

But the idea that you should never be approached period is an unreasonable expectation, i think

I'm not rude. If someone says hello, I'll exchance pleasantries ("how are you doing", "good morning" etc.) but I don't really want more than that. I try to let this be known with headphones, sunglasses, book etc. I've found knitting in public defeats this purpose though as guys often use it as an opening.

or HEADPHONES. it's unbelievable, the number of people who try to talk to you even though you have headphones in. it makes me gape in amazement at them.

Have a pretend nap.

xpost

haha It's true! Especially when I'm wearing these sound-sealing earplug-stylee headphones, and I actually can't hear them at all. Then they gape in amazement at ME. They will say, "You really can't hear me? At all?" At which point I say something clever like, "Go put something in your butt and leave me the fuck alone, you twat."

or HEADPHONES. it's unbelievable, the number of people who try to talk to you even though you have headphones in. it makes me gape in amazement at them.

not me. i'm not sure whether to be pleased or disappointed about this now.

xxpost
But then it might turn into something like Phil's train story. . .

I've found knitting in public defeats this purpose though as guys often use it as an opening.

OK this is v funny.

one of them said to me "But it's not like that when *I* do it. *I'm* not dangerous to women." and I wanted to KILL/MAIM/HURT/CRY. This, from a 6'3" Viking who took very, very thoughtful care of his girlfriend and was obviously a "good" guy, but to whom it had never occurred that women don't know if you're dangerous or not, and we have to assume that you ARE because the penalty for being wrong is far too severe.

Exactly. I take special pains not to ever put a woman in a situation that I know would make her feel threatened, regardless of my intent. If I'm walking home late at night and there's a woman alone ahead of me I make sure not to follow too close (although if it's really deserted I will try to stay within view so that she's not completely alone on the street).

The other night I subbed a class where only a single, female student showed up, and when the class was over we both had to leave the almost empty building at the same time. I tried my best not to be too close behind her, but then I realized I was lost, and when I called out to ask her how to get to the parking area I obviously scared the bejeezus out of her. I felt pretty bad about it and made sure to quickly walk in a different direction as soon as I knew where I was going.

"OMG where'd you get that yarn? i've been looking for this material for months"

I don't know, no one who has ever interrupted my reading has seemed to have a clue that I preferred it to talking to them. I think in general people who understand that reading is an important activity are less likely to interrupt it, and WAY less likely to ask if you're reading the bible, or what your book is about, or if you read a lot, or what kind of books you like, or whether you give a shit about the Amityville murders.

Hurting man you should've walked WITH her right out the building (maybe asking if she minded this first). Or not, I dunno.

Which, btw, fuck all you who didn't show up on Monday night, leaving me to try to be nice to that guy without losing my patience entirely.

How about we just agree that having yr nose in a book should be taken as a signal that normal people should be able to translate as "leave me alone."

B/C some people actually secretly hope they'll get attention by reading in public. (guilty)

how the hell is that supposed to work?

Books are not that novel. No pun intended.

"OMG HE CAN READ! THIS GUY IS SOMETHIN' ELSE!"

You read something that will hopefully attract like-minded individuals and give them a starting pt for conversation? Not that I've ever actually done this but I have certainly entertained the idea.

Out of the 3 dudes (including myself) I hung out with last night 2 of us have been the target of lewd comments.

From women or men? Just curious.

-- jessie monster, Thursday, June 7, 2007 10:58 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

50 50 split

oh my god, do you guys know M4RC L01: facebook feminist??

I notice when a girl (or really when anyone) is reading something smarter than Dan Brown or Habits of Highly Effective People on the subway.

It depends where you're reading. If it's a cafe, bar or similar, I would've thought you wouldn't mind someone strikingn up chat based on the book. Public transport is different cos you feel more trapped in that situation already.

Yeah, in college I used to secretly fantasize that the hot girl on the bus would be all "Oh, Dhalgren, I love that book, what do you think?" etc. etc.

It's a fantasy of mine.

Reading a book in public, I mean.

You read something that will hopefully attract like-minded individuals and give them a starting pt for conversation?

I've never deliberately used it as a pick-up strategy or anything, it's just a thought I have in the back of my head, and it's started conversations once or twice.

xpost - yes, more in a cafe than on a bus.

if i'm reading a book that's really interesting and someone else has read it and has an interesting opinion on it i don't mind if they want to ask me about it. This actually happened on the bus the other day, i was reading 'a house for mr. biswas' and this girl asked me about it cuz she read other naipaul and wanted to know about it, and we talked about it a bit and ended up having a whole conversation (mostly not-book related). I have a gf and don't need another one (lol) but i'm still glad to have had this experience.

and this was a woman (stranger) talking to me...i don't see why it would be that different for a guy talking to a girl unless he was being pervy about it or something

unless eye contact is made (thereby guaranteeing they are not, at that moment, reading) i think it's rude to talk to someone reading a book.

I mean the fact that you've gone to a cafe to read instead of staying home or going to a library already suggests it's at least possible you wouldn't mind some conversation.

(Reading in a cafe? She's asking for it!)

like you guys realize that lots of dudes are brought up to believe that the appropriate way to approach someone is by talking about something like what they are reading or asking them questions, you know, unrelated to how hott they look? i don't see how you can expect literature to keep people from talking to you - it makes approaching a woman EASIER, not more difficult. You actually have something to talk about

How about we just agree that having yr nose in a book should be taken as a signal that normal people should be able to translate as "leave me alone." Because that would work out really well for me.

Oh, God, yes!! I cannot tell you how many monosyllabic responses people have gotten from me when I'm bothered when reading. I make absoultely sure not to make ANY eye contact and if they insist to the point where I have to engage with them, before I tell them I really, really want to get back to reading, I make sure to ostentatiously place my forefinger on the spot where I've stopped reading and slowly lift up my most withering gaze.

fair point re eye contact

(Reading in a cafe? She's asking for it!) ha ha

"Ohhh, Belle du Jour! Tell me, is that even possible? ....."

I notice when a girl (or really when anyone) is reading something smarter than Dan Brown or Habits of Highly Effective People on the subway.

I don't even look at what ppl are reading on the train anymore, it depresses the shit out of me. Men of Chicago, please do not read fantasy books in public anymore. It's like holding up a sign that says, "I couldn't fuck my way out of a paper bag."

"OMG where'd you get that yarn? i've been looking for this material for months"

More like, "You don't see young women doing that these days . . ", "How do you do that?" or, recently Him: "Do you make hats for your boyfriend?" Me: "Yeah, but he doesn't wear them." Him: "I would."

Only twice has a woman asked me about my knitting and it turned out they were knitters too so it wasn't so bad.

Granted I haven't spent lonely days/nights hanging out and reading in cafes for about five years (since I met the woman to whom I am now married).

Only a phase, these dark cafe days.

:)

For me it was dark bar days with the game machine instead of a book. Glad those are over too.

I don't even look at what ppl are reading on the train anymore, it depresses the shit out of me. Men of Chicago, please do not read fantasy books in public anymore. It's like holding up a sign that says, "I couldn't fuck my way out of a paper bag."

Haha. I feel similarly when I see people reading self-help books on the train. "O HI EVERYONE I CAN'T GET MY LIFE TOGETHER!"

Oh hush, Kenan, my last subway crush was someone who read Robert Jordan on the morning train. :D

"Do you make hats for your boyfriend?" Me: "Yeah, but he doesn't wear them." Him: "I would."

aw. thin line between lame and endearing. maybe i'm just a soft touch.

i donno i don't think eye contact is neccessary ... if she responds monosyllabically or seems otherwise uninterested in conversing i just stop talking. I'm kind of oversensitive about stepping on other ppl's toes (metaphorically) as it is, but still!

More like, "You don't see young women doing that these days . . ", "How do you do that?" or, recently Him: "Do you make hats for your boyfriend?" Me: "Yeah, but he doesn't wear them." Him: "I would."

I figured they would be more like hipster-knitters looking to get some tips.

ha ha i just googled and found that old Nick S Voice piece on 'The Game'. HOW 2 F-CLOSE DIS NEGGEE?

aw. thin line between lame and endearing. maybe i'm just a soft touch.

Yeah but he was creepy and smelled like the bottom of a 40 oz.

There aren't too many hipsters in my neighboorhood. Yet.

I forgot best bus knitting moment: Lady behind me "Oh, they taught us how to knit in prison but I never was no good at it."

celeb gossip rags are what depress me

mssive xpost

(uh to clarify thats eye contact while book-reading)

(generally initial eye contact is desirable yeah)

B/C some people actually secretly hope they'll get attention by reading in public.

If you're going to flirt/make a comment to someone reading, you have to be prepared to get shot down in flames and not complain about it, and you have to have something more interesting to say than 'good book?' I would ask if they've read another book by the same author and whether it's worth it? That way they can respond curtly or at length whichever they prefer. A smart question can go a long ways.

People the best shut down tactic is still loud headphones WITH a book or game boy or... etc. This way you don't even NOTICE people trying to talk to you! They have to poke you on the shoulder or some shit, then you take your phones off and say "WHAT" loudly because you're used to the loud noise, then they say their little line and you say "PLEASE DON'T TOUCH ME" and go back into musicland.

(generally initial eye contact is desirable yeah)

Scrolling quickly through the 'new message' screen, I read that as something like 'genital contact is desirable'.

Has anyone else seen Bam Margera's movie "Haggard". He and Ryan Dunn go into a coffee shop and Ryan tries to strike up a conversation with a chick reading by commenting on her tattoo. She ends up stabbing him in the eye with a fork and he has a patch on his eye for the rest of the movie. I'm sure he did/said something more to inspire the stabbing but I don't remember. Still funny.

An inspirational message for our times.

This thread makes me think of Graham.

Scrolling quickly through the 'new message' screen, I read that as something like 'genital contact is desirable'.

-- Michael White, Thursday, June 7, 2007 4:37 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

haha i am not LJ

genital contact is desirable

that's almost the definition of desirable

Lady behind me "Oh, they taught us how to knit in prison but I never was no good at it."

!!!!!

I was reading some guy's knitting blog where he was describing having to sit next some not too bright young lady on public transportation who asked him, 'So where did you learn to knit, prison?"

people keep knitting blogs? that seriously makes me think of all those slightly-out-of-touch movie references where someone talk about keeping a blog for something that nobody would actually keep a blog about ie. an ant farm or something.

Scrolling quickly through the 'new message' screen, I read that as something like 'genital contact is desirable'.

-- Michael White, Thursday, June 7, 2007 4:37 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

haha i am not LJ

-- deej, Thursday, 7 June 2007 16:43 (19 minutes ago) Link

or keenan!

There is a large universe of knitting blogs and communities around them. They are fascinating. I really want to make my blog a knitting blog but haven't done enough of it lately.

I had no idea knitting was so big in prison.

knitting isn't big in prison, but prison is big in knitting

I think there are like 2 million knitting blogs at this point.

I think the next time someone asks where I learned to knit, I will tell them "prison".

And then stare at them balefully

Then clean the underside of yr fingernails with the point of a knitting needle.

I think the next time someone asks where I learned to knit, I will tell them "prison".

Then, when they ask what you were in for, you can look them right in the eyes, smile, and say, "I had to kill someone who asked too many questions."

when they ask what you were in for, you can look them right in the eyes, smile, and say, "I had to kill someone who asked too many questions."

This would probably qualify as "humour" and would have the opposite of the intended effect, ie. look like you're interested in talking more.

Not if your smile is broad and your eyes are cold and steely; you'd look a little unhinged.

maybe you smile like that straight off and not say anything

^^^ insert word "should" where appropriate

I was walking down the street a few months ago and a relatively attractive woman smiled at me as she passed by. My reaction was what the hell do you think you are doing? What does that mean? It was very confusing since I have never experienced that before in a random street passing. I fully expected to be clubbed from behind in my moment of brief distraction.

I don't say anything to women (or men) walking down the street. I do check people out though, but only with a quick saccade of the eyes. However, I can see how even that would be perceived as creepy.

Especially if you don't say anything.

Haha I had a moment like this recently as well where I was actually smiled at at a bus stop by a pretty girl! I tried to smile back and I think my contorted my face into some sort of grimace and then the bus was like 15 minutes late, and I stood outside the shelter and she sat inside it and I did not even try to talk to her or even think of something to say. It was awkward but also I was in a great mood all day because I got smiled at. But also a sad mood because I could do nothing better than an awkward "you are smiling at ME?" face.

Good lord that's a lot of posts in five hours! Lots of skimming, but I did want to say something about this, from Laurel:

This is how I eventually figured out to stop feeling threatened by it -- it's OKAY to get angry, it's OKAY to talk back to them

Not to excuse catcalling, or anything that's making strangers uncomfortable, but yeah: with that light "hey mami" stuff there's a definite cultural element to it, and figuring out its rules of okayness is obviously gonna make the whole thing a lot less threatening. If you've never been called after before and don't know what responses are appropriate, that's gonna be legitimately scary -- but it's gotta be reassuring to see women who've grown up in city neighborhoods get called after and just call back, and everyone generally laughs, and it becomes clearer how much this stuff usually operates on the level of teasing and posturing and such.

(To be clear, I am NOT saying that makes it okay, or that women should just learn to adapt to that kind of social dynamic -- just saying that if you DO learn to identify that dynamic, it'll at least save you some worry by differentiating non-threatening sunny-day street-banter shit from more scary things.)

(Umm obviously certain claims in that post are speculative, as I am not a woman and do not get catcalled and don't claim to know how that feels -- just sayin', though, there's a level of social navigation going on with it sometimes where mastering the rules will probably make you feel better more often?)

those rules can suck it

:)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qtM6ezECYwA

That would be funnier if it were, er...funny.

I can completely understand how being oggled, especially with a craned neck, is perceived by women as creepy. Sometimes I'm on the escalator and there is a guy near me with his eyes glued to the woman's ass in front of him, or a guy on the street checking out a woman in such a way that it is obvious that he wants to make sure she knows she's being checked out. In these cases it's not happening to me or anyone I know, but I still want to ask him what the fuck would make him think that it's OK to act that way. And nevermind the catcalls and DAYUMMMMMs.

However there is a big difference between oggling and simply checking out. Staring at body parts, making noises, craning your neck=gross; making eye contact, nodding, stealing a glance=seems fairly respectful.

As a guy I feel positively giddy when I get checked out--it made my week when I passed a guy on the street who was on the phone and he held eye contact with me and actually interrupted his phone call to say hi to me.

On the other hand, I got some disgusting oggling the other day by a guy standing in a doorway. As I passed he stared at me, obviously checking out my crotch, and as I passed, he said, "Mmm, mmm, MMMMM!" I turned and shot him a nasty glance.

'I just found out I have cancer!' I blurted out suddenly.

As I passed he stared at me, obviously checking out my crotch, and as I passed, he said, "Mmm, mmm, MMMMM!" I turned and shot him a nasty glance.

yeah, sorry jesse, i meant to appologize for that.

Ha ha!

Worst objectifying ever: by middle school students when I'm trying to teach them grammar. That made me feel really. . .gross.

If I were the type to use lines, I would make up so many fun ones for grammar teachers. "I'd conjugate your participle!" to be crude; "I hope you want to talk to me because a preposition is something I do NOT want to end this conversation on!" is to be smooth!

your modifiers can dangle off me anyday

OMG all this time I assumed this thread was about sending someone flowers or something.

Will, I would have been delighted to get those kinds of lines as it would've proved that I had been somewhat effective at my job. Instead I was serenaded with "Right Thurr".

I actually want to try that preposition one in general now. It is pretty keen! Just gotta find someone on which to try it... err, I mean, someone to try it on. Heh

oh oh loltastic pick up line i forgot to tell anyone abt and now need to! from when i was at this outdoor electrodance event on the wkend:

6-foot-tall black guy appears beside me, kinda bats his eyelashes (srlsy, what?) and shyly says in french: "i like your spirit; it's lovely"
me, in french: "i don't speak french very well - you like my 'spirit'?"
guy: "yes, it's very free."
me, smiling: "uh, well, merci"
guy: "i also like your breasts"
LOL

That is amazing. ^^

but that's an example of how pick-up lines can exist in a grey wtf i have no idea what to do here area. i wasn't into other people that day, so my smile and look into middle distance worked and no i am not going to go dance over by the speakers with you
xpost haha

Say "You won't like them as much without your eyes" and poke them out with a drink stirrer.

rrrobyn that man sounds like husband material, fo reals

yeah, i know
but y'know, i couldn't help but laugh at what he said and he kinda laughed too but did not quite drop the affected macking on-ness, but still i can't be mad at people who make me genuinely laugh. it is my achilles heel.

also i get pretty shy when being so obviously hit on by stranger, like main instinct is to detach from reality or flee scene

Haha. Hmm, yes, mine is to tell them that I don't accept drinks from strangers/am late for something else/only came to the bar to hang out with the people I came to the bar with.

So if you ever need to kill a man, imagine he is v. obviously hitting on you, so that you detach from reality long enough to pull the trigger. the fleeing scene part may also come in handy re: cops!

dude this is why i am never allowed to have weapons

6-foot-tall black guy appears beside me, kinda bats his eyelashes (srlsy, what?) and shyly says in french: "i like your spirit; it's lovely"
me, in french: "i don't speak french very well - you like my 'spirit'?"
guy: "yes, it's very free."
me, smiling: "uh, well, merci"
guy: "i also like your breasts"
LOL

-- rrrobyn, Thursday, June 7, 2007 7:46 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7b/Choclair_IceCold.jpg/220px-Choclair_IceCold.jpg

Although you can forestall anyone ever hitting on you in a bar again by only going out with yr noize bros to bars where everyone is either much younger than you or from a wildly different demographic from yours (ie middle-aged Polish alcoholics hi dere Sockstar).

haha i have seen choclair (without meaning to)

i kind of never go to bars but maybe wld if i had more noize bros/money/time/desire to leave comforts of home

i've been hit on at sockstar by old construction worker dudes and much younger dudes!

i've uh, also hit on younger guys

at said bar
</cougar>

Why Lindsay, I had no idea.

oh but what is age

:D

I found this really weird bar where it was a LOT of 20-something girls of varying attractiveness and relatively few 30-40-something gentlemen who seemed to be there already with specific 20-something girls. It seemed like a good place to go as a girl and not get hit on due to the ratio + the apparent lack of interest from the men there. Of course I was a dude and even then only going to drink w/ a friend from out of town (no real interest to meet new people that night!)

True! That could come in handy. I don't want to rule guys out as friends & for chilling, though, I just don't want them to be all like "Hiii, what do you do? Laurel, that's a pretty name. So what's your book about?"

didn't we have thread about how tired the "so what do u do" convo line was?

go back, will!

i will remeber to use the other two lines tho, regardless of their name or literacy level.

xpost - srsly where this bar at?

Why should I go back? I'm not a 20-something girl in need of a place where people won't hit on me!

(psst will the ratio works in your favor)

I'm not a 20-something girl, either. ;)

you're the one who wants to pick up girls at bars, right? don't assume they're all there because they're thinking "oh thank goodness, a haven where nobody will hit on me!" it might just be that their friends are there, or they like the music, but secretly wish there were more 20-something guys around!

My wife has told me that in her country of origin, NO ONE ever says "what do you do?" when they meet someone. I think I've improved as a conversationalist by trying to practice the discipline of not asking this early on.

Sockstar seems to be the #1 place to pull for my friends lately. (See you guys later)

Prob see you on the late side, JW, I won't get home from practice until at least 10pm.

Ahhh I see. Well ratio is hardly an issue. I could be the ONLY GUY in a bar and the main problem would still stand, I don't know how to tlak to people! And I'm not necessarily looking to pick up so much as strike conversation with people/make new friends also!

The only time I was really good at talking to random strangers in a bar was the day I affected an accent and told hilarious stories about things that happened while I lived in the Czech Republic (I never lived there) and taught people how to swear in Czech (learned from two Czech friends) and mangled american idioms.

I did this way before Borat, fyi. But not before Boris Smirnoff.

Prob see you on the late side, JW, I won't get home from practice until at least 10pm.

-- Laurel, Thursday, June 7, 2007 4:42 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

I am going to show on LES till past 10

didn't we have thread about how tired the "so what do u do" convo line was?

I don't know where Hurting's woman is from, but in France that kind of line would be seen as the the nadir of gauche. It touches on interpersonal power politics, bores people with shop talk, and is about as uncreative as you can get.

Psst I think she is Israeli.

psst yes.

I don't think Israeli's have much of a concept of "gauche." I think it's more just that talking about your job seems stiff and formal and Israelis tend to be pretty informal. Plus there doesn't tend to be as wide a range of lucrative career options there so you're less likely to get a sexy-sounding answer.

er "Israelis"

I've since come to realize that popping the career question early can introduce an unpleasant kind of "sizing up" and/or competition, and avoiding it forces one to be friendlier and more creative in conersation.

er "conversation"

I went on a couple dates with an Argentinean girl who said much the same thing. When I say it I at least try to use a tone that says "I know this is a lame and cliched thing to say, so let's get it out of the way". :/

I hate being asked also because I don't really like my job and have run out of ways of pretending to like it.

^^^yes the worst part is that my job is *in theory* awesome but due to an extremely negative work environment is terrible, so ppl have trouble understanding how i can be so down on it when i explain the concept

Hurting, just say that you're a musician.

It's got to come up eventually if you have an extended conversation with someone, but it's certainly not a good way to begin a conversation.

Jesse OTM, I as gonna say isn't this bound to come up at some point?

as of tomorrow i don't have an answer to this question.

"what do you do?"
"collect unemployment."

"It's more what don't do..."

SMOKE W33D PLAY MADDEN RELY ON GUBMINT! Say that.

(what *I* don't do)

"Depends how much the trick is paying me. Oh, that was the wrong thing to say, wasn't it?"

If I were more playful and bold, I would make up a new job for myself every time someone asked me, George Constanza style.

Hurting, just say that you're a musician.

-- Jordan, Thursday, June 7, 2007 9:23 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Yeah, but that would imply I make some kind of at least supplemental living from music.

That seems like ineffective lying! Make up a good one and stick to it in case people know each other!

Hey... I'm a rocket scientist in charge of Canada's space program. (That's a good unemployment one harrrr)

I'm an anesthesiologist.

did i ever tell you about the time i said i was a dog groomer?

Dress for the job you want, not the job you have.

I got yelled at for giving really terse answers to boring questions.

"policy"
"nyu"

It's so hard people ask you this question and you can't quite figure out how to explain what you do. I mean I'm a waiter now, so it's easy, but for my last job (supervising interns as we recruited religious and community leaders for a non-profit that united labor and religion) I would just tell people "organizer" but then they immediately thought I was a union organzier. Not that it probably ever really mattered in a drunken bar conversation.

No one knows what book production is anyway. I should just start telling them I'm a bike mechanic.

"dreamer"

How do people not know what book production is?!

As in print production, right?

I'm sorry, it's loud in here. Did you 'bike'?

tell them you're a book mechanic

Book reduction?!

I'm a deipnosophist

When I used to just say "reporter" people would often immediately think I meant TV, get excited, and then seem disappointed when I told them newspaper (old job) or legal news service (current job).

yeah when asked I have to elaborate on my job title, but at least when i'm done the person is quite sure they do not want to ask followup questions cos it sounds so boring (and it is). I come up with fake job titles about a quarter of the time, if I feel like being there at all. I thought everyone did this. "What do you do" is a depressingly common 'icebreaker' in L.A. btw, I'm glad someone else hates it. Another one of those shitty 'adult' lines of conversation.

That's weird, Hurting. I think I would assume newspaper unless told otherwise.

At my old job, I'd say, "I work for a textbook company," and invariably, people would say, "Oh, which one?" and I'd have to be like, "Well, it's not exactly a textbook company per se, we're more like a development firm, so actual textbook companies come to us and ask us to edit and design their books because zzzzzzzzzzzz."

At my current job, my company is famous enough that I've told cabbies or bums, who may not even be clear on what a copy editor does, "You heard of _____ _____? I work for them."

jaymc works for girls gone wild

oh sh!t should have googlepr00fed it huh

why are you rubbing your job in bums' faces?

I haven't read the whole thread and I'm pretty sure the conversation has moved past the original question, but I'm a big fan of the old-fashioned method of just smiling at strangers in the street. It's great, I'm always amazed how many people smile back. Plus when hot girls do it you get this cool 'aura of invincibility' kind of feeling.

i am a relaxation consultant.

haha You're the best around.

So guess what? That guy that I mentioned upthread ("mmm, mmm, MMMM!")? I saw him again as I was lugging my laundry down the street. Apparently he works at the beauty supply store on the corner. He left me alone this time--I guess he doesn't find me so sexy when it's 90 degrees, I'm in gym clothes, unshaven, and unshowered, schlepping dirty clothes....

Another example of my being hit on (I think?). This was non-threatening b/c of the neighborhood.

I was walking down Northalsted and a sort of weird-queeny pair of guys was walking toward me and the one guy said pointed to me and said, "Oh look!" The other guy was trying to make him stop, but the first guy persisted going "You stop, I want to say hi to him--Hi, how are you tonight?" as his friend fussed at him, stopping him from waving (both hands) and urging him to shut up. It was funny in a way that is not coming through completely here.

Man sometimes I hate being in a completely opposite timezone to 90% of ILX :(

jeez this has moved on a bit. i've just been playing an unsuccessful game of cricket and then holding court at an english tripos dinner with plenty of rapt young ladies. one need not show one's appreciation if one has one's verbal cohabitants in the palm of one's hand; however viscous one's logorrhea, they'll lap it up as if sipping the purest ambrosia from a pristine Restoration myrtle-hewn vessel. ok, enough self-parody. snakes alive! have i indulged in the old vino.

ok, enough self-parody.

I was gonna say!

believe me, this shit sounds waaaaay better when I say it aloud.

Hahah oh dear.

I kind of love LJ.

i would hold court with all this ILXors

"besotted acrostic love-poems" still rules

To Ema ****

O Ema! Did you follow me across the nightlands dim?
I do remember something, active, galumphing about
As dragonflies do tussle gauzed and humming in the sun-
Maybe I remember silly things and shouldn't wash in fool.

To spoil the light-hot memories of captured-film array
Or shout aloud the silent joy of wandering astray
Ruins in chatter the delicate, sensitive knowledge of when
Never to part, but stay close, and let chance mark one's way.

When did we disperse, Ema, when did we echo the moon?
I left you cohesive yet dragged beyond mind's edge of grasp
Then practised the state with the back of my eyelids instead;
How eloquent the brain is when afforded time and space!

Long passed now, that sheerbomb, that wisdom supreme,
Once seen ne'er forgotten; O, Ema, make haste to
Visit the place where it all found a cause, and then
End this mundanity, written for you.

FIRST LETTER OF EACH LINE, FOLKS

do you think she noticed

I don't think she got to the first letter, Louis

agh ban LJ until he grows a testicle

Just the one?

I'm not convinced he could manage the full set.

I was going to comment but it seems we're waaaaaay past the substantive part of this thread.

what an odd thing to say...

katieburger late to the party.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/construction_worker_still_hasnt