Working class white boys "underachieving at school"

Nothing to do with the 'soical engineering' experiment caried out by this Government? Which seems to have produced millions a feral kids where being uneducated,uninformed and uncultivated is something to be proud of?

Markus, Royston

Takes one to know one doesn't it?

... and who can't spell "social"

hurrah, more grist to the http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/ mill

"caried" - does that mean the Government based their behavioural/manneristic targets on the role model of Cary Grant?

What is required is to find some activity at which he excells and then he will concentrate and become respected, stress is reduced and he is more likely to be able to learn.

Trish Niblock, Edinburgh

This lady writes a lot of sense there is nothing like success to breed success It is better to reach a standard in 16 weeks than to fail to reach the same standard in 8 weeks

Richard Harvey, Brighton, United Kingdom

You couldnt Make it Up I Blame the Sixtees

Putting disadvantaged children into better schools is like putting estates in a well off area. Pointless because it will just bring the other children down and distract them.

Rich H, Harrow, United Kingdom

Harrow, note.

What is required is to find some activity at which he excells

Spelling for instance?

Rich H, Harrow, United Kingdom

Rich Halfwit?

I'm just waiting to see if it'll be Lex, Kate, or Jagger that pushes this thread into 300 posts.

>> Putting disadvantaged children into better schools is like putting estates in a well off area. Pointless because it will just bring the other children down and distract them.

LOL that's what they did with me, and the only distraction that caused was me getting bullied for having a common accent and called a spod and a geek because I got good marks in everything without doing any work.

This is how the 11 Plus started.

!!!!!DICIPLINE!!!!!
Schools aren't in control of students.
Students are in control of the teachers as they have an upper hand in that teachers are only allowed to shout.
As we all know, children get used to people shouting at them especially if they are from a poor abckground with parents surrounded by stress over money. In these situations parents are more likely to shout at their children.
Bring back dicipline.
bring back the fear in students for the teachers and get rid of the yobs.

Chris, Swindon

As Genesis P. Orridge so rightly stated: "I want some DICIPLINE in here!!!!"

bring back the fear in students for the teachers

The grammar pathos on this thread is unbearable.

Getting the Fear, as Charlie Manson was apt to say

As we all know, children get used to people shouting at them especially if they are from a poor abckground with parents surrounded by stress over money

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,750 for "middle class debt". (0.23 seconds)

As Genesis P. Orridge so rightly stated: "I want some DICIPLINE in here!!!!"

Is that a body modification technique?

It wasn't disadvantaged kids that held things up in classes at my school, it was the thick tossers who didn't wanna learn nuffink.

As opposed to the thick tossers whose parents can pay for tutors to help them pass exams

The kids these people are complaining about are most likely of all children to receive regular, vigorous physical discipline at home. Which kinda fucks their theory.

We had to have the obligatory "sexualism" entry:

From the way my boys are taught in school I'd say the teaching system is biased against them.
The teaching books and curriculum are optimised for girls with 95% of primary school teachers being women, as men don't want to teach that age in case they are accused of 'sexual harassement' against the kids. Add to it that it's not-PC to show any interest to white kids and hey-presto, white boys are doing poorly at school. What a surprise!

EarlyMan n, Somerset, United Kingdom

It Takes a Nation of Thick Bastards to Hold Us Back

it's not-PC to show any interest to white kids

Honestly, where do people get this shite. Does anyone even know what "PC" means?

Add to it that it's not-PC to show any interest to white kids

Y'what?

We live in a politically correct society in which the needs and preferences of the minority outweigh the needs and preferences of the majority. The worse type of person to be in today's society, is white, male, British, heterosexual and young. This is exacerbated further by poverty.
How to address it? Control the crazy political correctness that we see in Britain. Remember that the majority needs and preferences should always outweight those of the minorities. That is democracy.

Brian Heath, London

RECOMMEND
Recommended by 93 people

When will the discrimination against white, heterosexual males ever end?

http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/canada-magazine/issue16/site/images/g8leaders.jpg

Onimo asks: "Does anyone even know what 'PC' means?"

Colin from Bracknell replies: "Could it be the over compensation of PC that is leaving the white boys to their own devices?"

Nicely ambiguous, that.

The worse type of person to be in today's society, is white, male, British, heterosexual and young. This is exacerbated further by poverty.
How to address it? Control the crazy political correctness that we see in Britain. Remember that the majority needs and preferences should always outweight those of the minorities. That is democracy.

Brian Heath, London

Brian Heath, London

I think is used to work with this guy. I know it's a fairly common name but this guy was always saying things like "If you want to get on in this country you've got to be a disabled black lesbian Muslim dwarf."

ned, the majority of those white males are gay though.

The Disabled Black Lesbian Muslim Dwarves...I'm always getting friend requests from them on MySpace.

No simple answer, but try:
1. De-feminising the curriculum (i.e. put books and subjects that are of interest to boys back in to the system).
2.Encourage parents to understand that they have a responsibility , you don't leave it all to the schools/teachers.
3.Forget 'childrens rights' and re-introduce discipline.
4Discard 'trendy' teaching and return to 'traditional' teaching methods.
5.Ignore Health & Safety 'police' and bring back some danger into childrens lives..

H R, United Kingdom

I make that five simple answers.

Simple-minded more like, amirite?

bring back some danger into childrens lives.

Like when they appointed that school caretaker in Soham.

bring back some danger into childrens lives

hahaha

(There is a debate to be had about allowing children to take controlled risks during play, tho. But I don't want to interrupt the hilarity/misery on here.)

I can't help but notice that the Prime Minister of Japan isn't white. THIS IS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD MR BLAIR

bring back some danger into childrens lives..

H R, United Kingdom

And H R is just the man for the job

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/09/redknappPA110906_501x700.jpg

The grammar pathos on this thread is unbearable.

BATHOS surely?

More sorrow than hilarity

Forget 'childrens rights'

!!!

The worse type of person to be in today's society, is white, male, British, heterosexual and young. This is exacerbated further by poverty.
How to address it? Control the crazy political correctness that we see in Britain. Remember that the majority needs and preferences should always outweight those of the minorities. That is democracy.

I wistfully long for the day when white heterosexual males are the most privileged group in this country, but I just can't see it happening :(

I wistfully long for the day when white heterosexual males are the most privileged group in this country, but I just can't see it happening :(

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one, in a sea of unstoppable multiculturalism

It'd be good if either Brian Keith or the melted-faced bung-taker Harry Redknapp Googled their way to this thread and pushed it to 300, you get a bit sick of the usual patterns.

It makes me want to put my foot through the monitor and send ILX's Most Controversial Posters the bill.

I dunno...what about compulsory intelligence tests for all pupils (note: not SATS-style academic examination but purely IQ/learning receptability-based tests) aged about 8 or 9? Regardless of their background, the more responsive children could be sent to well-run Government-funded grammar schools, thus enabling them to have the education they deserve? Probably just a pipe-dream, alas.

That was a spoof, LJ, right?

HERE WE GO AGAIN ON OUR OWN, GOING DOWN THE ONLY ROAD WE'VE EVER KNOWN

In the "I suppose he does have a point" department:

The usual collection of 'blame single parents' and 'on benefits, what do you expect' nonsense.
Even if they achieve they are priced out of HE. You name callers who think it is all so simple should not even be allowed to vote as it is clear you do not understand the important issues within society you are voting on.
I, worked three job to get my Degree then my MPhil and now cannot find a job. Tell me why I studied and sacificed. I am a single dad, guess I don' deserve a job, scum like me

dave, nantwich

It's not too late for this to not happen

Regardless of their background

Aye, like that's about to happen

MORLOCKS, KNOW YOUR PLACE

All 11-year-olds should be forced to write a 750 word review of the latest 65daysofstatic album, so we can sort the smart ones from the thickos.

Not a spoof, just testing the waters with a fairly outrageous stratagem, in order to gauge the response. Although I don't see how such a system would be any worse than the one we have at the moment. Apprenticeships and vocational schooling should also be looked at for those of a younger age; not everyone's talents lie in artistic or logical reasoning. I'm speaking up for state-funded education, what's wrong with that?

Sadly, it looks like LJ is too far right for the modern Conservative Party

Vocational schooling = force slightly-above-average-intelligence working class kids into working as plumbers and carpenters so they don't take jobs away from the priveleged classes?

You're more or less describing the system prior to Comprehensive education. It was shit.

To be fair, plumbers and carpenters probably earn more than a lot of graduates!

Apprenticeships and vocational schooling should also be looked at for those of a younger age

aye, for the manufacturing base we used to have

lots of construction thou! at least in ldn.

wonder why that might be!

To be fair, plumbers and carpenters probably earn more than a lot of graduates!

-- Colonel Poo, Friday, 22 June 2007 10:29 (33 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

Not now all those peskly eastern europeans have come over here stealing their jobs with their turning up on time and not overcharging malarky...

Cos Britain is better off than it's ever been! hoorah!

xp

Vocational schooling = force slightly-above-average-intelligence working class kids into working as plumbers and carpenters so they don't take jobs away from the priveleged classes?

No, Dom, that's ad hominem and hurtful. Vocational schooling = encourage those of lower academic intelligence to undergo training which will lead them to a fulfilled career and possibly pave their way to great successes in later life. Taking jobs away from the privileged classes doesn't come into it; there are plenty of people in the 'privileged classes' who don't deserve squat (and have peas for brains); what I'm saying is that they too should be forced to take the intelligence tests, and if they come off badly, their education should reflect this. It would be nice for all secondary schools to be exactly the same, all high-quality, but this isn't going to happen.

If you want to set me up as a right-wing (wrong) member of the privileged classes (wrong, look at our mortgages WE HAS MORTGAGES FFS, my school education was paid for with a scholarship), I'm afraid you're not going to win the argument.

^^^ hes got a point here, its the middle classes that are going to feel the real pain over the next decade or so

wrong, look at our mortgages WE HAS MORTGAGES FFS

How terribly working class

Tell me more about "intelligence" and how to test it, LJ.

Also tell me if you think people can become more or less intelligent as they get older.

One for your bedroom reading Lou: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Learning-Labour-WILLIS/dp/1857421701/ref=ed_oe_p/202-8542518-3591046

my school education was paid for with a scholarship

"Nobody knows the trouble I've seen"

Let's just leave the ad homo stuff out of this and point out that there's no satisfactory way to measure the intelligence of a 9 year-old that will tell you what job they'd be best off doing when they're 39. Also lol capitalism.

And "Intelligence Tests" are always riddled with class/cultural bias.

oh come on! there's a Pret on every street and Nandos in the provinces, we've never had it so good! no chance of a bust, neo-liberalism has won. deal with it.

:D

see you on the other side!

i always forget whos sarcastic, whos sardonic, whos facetious, whos ironic,

The Noodster OTM

I'm not working class, I'm not privileged class, I am, as Gareth rightly points out, middle-class (by general standards). But I'd rather not go into class; it's a Pandora's Box of lazy assumptions, pigeonholing, and debate-killing ad hominem. I merely think that the pupils from any background should get the education that most suits their intelligence and skills (footballers to football academies, brainboxes to decent schools, farmers to agricultural college etc). Is there anything so right-wing about that?

C'mon, my mum was recently a teacher of 5 to 6 year-olds, and within a term she could rattle off the names of the especially intelligent pupils. You can just tell. Perhaps it shouldn't be done with a test, but instead with a general teaching report (which would heap yet more responsibility on the teachers, and require their integrity). As I say, a pipe-dream.

I'm not working class

You surprise me

I'm glad your mother could just tell. I assume she knew early on what kids to write off as well.

What jobs call for especially intelligent people?

What about intelligent kids with behaviour problems? Say, hypothetically, you had a kid from a working class background who was diagnosed a "gifted child" with an IQ of over 130 when he was 10, but was also suspended from school 37 times between the ages of 9 and 17. What do you do with him Lou?

Where would you have sent the 6 year old Pat Nevin?

Do you favour a sub-cutaneous Career Chip or a barcode tattoo on their 16th birthday?

Or Toto Schillachi, he was a farmer.
xp

my financial advisor said i should look into investing in a city academy. i like the cut of louis' jib. i'll try and get him a place on the board.

i'm not going for anything that differentiates people based on intelligence tests and then decides some ppl deserve more money than others spent on their education.

i also wrote a long post (that ILX eated) about how vocational/apprenticeships is what you would get in the absence of state education.

Yeah, I believe 7 years service for no money was the standard contract.

In response to LJ's disappointingly Giles Corenesque defence I would respond that the lady who taught us 5 to 6 year-olds also prided herself on her ability to rattle off the names of the especially intelligent pupils.

These comprised myself and a regular contributor to the Have Your Say boards.

So you can't always tell.

What about intelligent kids with behaviour problems? Say, hypothetically, you had a kid from a working class background who was diagnosed a "gifted child" with an IQ of over 130 when he was 10, but was also suspended from school 37 times between the ages of 9 and 17. What do you do with him Lou?

I think you already answered your own question with the 750 word 65daysofstatic review

What jobs call for especially intelligent people?

Anything academic, scientific, medical, literary...I could go on...

What about intelligent kids with behaviour problems? Say, hypothetically, you had a kid from a working class background who was diagnosed a "gifted child" with an IQ of over 130 when he was 10, but was also suspended from school 37 times between the ages of 9 and 17. What do you do with him Lou?

You give him the education his intelligence merits (if he were to be send to some awful youth correction institute, he'd doubtless get bored very quickly and find more ways to make trouble/waste his life), and you inform the school of his disciplinary record. Hopefully they'll treat him carefully, understandingly, and help to raise him into a fulfilled adult.

cos y know that kid dom's talkin about might have one hell of a messageboard poster inside waiting to get out. you can't write off that kind of potential, man.

think of the n3rd pr0n articles that may go unwritten!

Anna Logue is the only porn star I've interviewed I've ever been actually attracted to, FYI.

Jenna Jameson has a degree, where does she fit into Lou's system?

See I think there are plenty of people working in all those fields that aren't exceptionally intelligent, but have received good educations. Also: literary? R U Shaw?

I'm sure she'd be under him somewhere.

xp

argh maybe I should quit pushing the meritocratic line, although given my own education i'd probably be a hypocrite to do so. although it isn't so much meritocratic as suitability-based.

i'm not saying that some should have more money spent on them than others, i'm saying that with equivalent money, some schools will naturally be better-suited to 'intelligent' pupils than others (on account of having better teachers).

NV: yeah, i know there are, and on the whole they don't actually contribute much, they kinda leech off the genuinely forward-thinking, pro-active ones.

You give him the education his intelligence merits

"OK, you stupid 5 year old. Go and play with some spanners and learn about chisels and stuff and don't even THINK about opening a book. Ever."

To which, I reply:

"Go and talk shite about prog rock and come back when you've grown up."

schools differentiate kids by ability all the time. so this is all bollox.

the trick is stretching limited resources (the teachers, money) to the huge variety of kids educational needs and covering those, without disproportionately privileging any of those needs. (physical disabilities should be provided for but i'd consider that a separate, non-educational resource.)

most studies indicate that academic achievement disparities become set before the age of 4

Actually I was told to go and talk shite about prog rock when I was 5 so it doesn't always work.

schools differentiate kids by ability all the time. so this is all bollox

Differentiating kids differently with regards to their ability in science, maths, PE, DT, English, etc is way way different than going "Hey brainbox, you come here. Spacka: piss off"

that's what i'm saying, dom

I don't think it's extreme to say that the education system we have now, and the kind of system LJ proposes, are based on an outdated or never-existent model of the country's economy. To look at education solely as preparation for a career is to pretend we have full employment, and useful employment, and not an exploitative clusterfuck of a social system.

Just got offed seems to be saying "oh they SHOULD do this" (when they do) and if they did that (they DO) then they could spend all the cash on the good ones.

which is bollox

I get ya.

I am, as Gareth rightly points out, middle-class

i wasnt actually pointing anything out about you, i was merely pointing out that it is the middle classes who will be feeling the pain over the next decade

Differentiating kids differently with regards to their ability in science, maths, PE, DT, English, etc is way way different than going "Hey brainbox, you come here. Spacka: piss off"

Well, the first case is ideal, and I'll concede contains the nuance that my original argument lacked.

Tom D, can you please quit with warping my words into foul ad hominem bullshit.

Also, I didn't say 'they should spend all the cash on the good ones', that's also hurtful crap. I said they should teach each pupil according to their abilities. Spend as much money as you want on each individual teaching-staff, but assign pupils to the right teachers (English teachers, football coaches, farmers etc)

Promising footballers need to be kept away from English coaches for as long as possible, tbh.

"Well I'll concede my argument lacked bullshit. Also, I say 'spend all cash on crap' you want teaching-staff, assign farmers."

Can someone let me know when this thread gets around to sending them back up the chimneys? Ta.

ok then, but you said "the more responsive children could be sent to well-run Government-funded grammar schools"

which to my mind implies send the rest to, what? less well run under-funded schools?

Tom D, can you please quit with warping my words into foul ad hominem bullshit.

I will when you stop coming out with ignorant, offensive SHITE

Get 1 nuance, moran

the rest could be sent to well-run Government-funded vocational colleges?

perhaps the families should have the option of choice in all this, but it's a tricky situation to sort out whilst keeping everyone happy.

look, i admitted my initial proposition was fairly black-and-white, and you'll see that i seamlessly incorporated dom's slightly more nuanced view into my own.

"look, i admitted dom's into my own."

dom's slightly more nuanced view

and its not often you hear those words

Wasn't his point about Annabel Chong or something?

something about wrestling i thought

Shane Douglas used to be a teacher before he wrestled.

Right, now instead of sniping at my proposed solution, can you guys provide of your own? I'm interested to see whether anyone can come up with something convincing.

*provide one of

Like Marcello I was singled out at primary school and even then I remember thinking that this was bullshit because the girl I liked ended up in a different group, those retarding my education in the important things in life like kiss chase and postman's knock.

Right, now instead of sniping at my proposed solution, can you guys provide of your own?

Well, how about ending charitable status for public schools, for a start.

It doesn't make sense to give the clever kids all the resources. Intelligent working class kids will still do well no matter where they are (I went to a shithole of a school where some teachers didn't bother turning up to their own lessons, but I still did alright). Clever kids are more likely to work out how to learn things without decent resources, it makes more sense to give more help to the people who aren't capable of that.

your proposed solution was nothing,and you've condeded everything. so there's nothing more to discuss there.

schools should differentiate pupils in a nunaced way (good) and it's a tricky situation (yes), but something should then be done so everyone is happy. THIS IS NOT A PIPE DREAM. it's a fair description of the present situation - with the divisiveness of grammar schools and other school funding inequities pissing it up for everyone. focusing on intelligence tests can go to hell. like the 11+ did (did it?)

it is indeed a tricky situation. and what's awful about it is the idea that the government or the parents might have the answer to it all.

unfortunately the 80s conservative government introduced a national curriculum which stopped schools coping with said tricky situation in diverse and appropriate ways. they killed diversity and experimentation. the free-market only works in some situations it seems.

how about ensuring a living wage and affordable, well-funded childcare for parents so that by age 4 their children aren't already behind

ding ding ding

xxxxpost to Tom D: I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, as long as a system of extremely well-run, well-taught grammar schools was instated in order to give parents the option of giving their children a more academically demanding education. My own parents sometimes say that they wish they'd sent me to a state school; the trouble is that there aren't any good state or grammar schools in my area, and the best education for me that they could think of was independent education. I wouldn't be averse to changing this.

*installed

2nd proposal: ban grammar schools and close down all existing ones

there aren't any good state or grammar schools in my area

because parents who can afford it take their kids out

cf: nhs

Right, now instead of sniping at my proposed solution, can you guys provide of your own?

Circular 10/65

Can I just say that everything I say on this thread is conjecture, and not necessarily my firm, long-held belief. When I said 'intelligence tests', Alan, I didn't mean 'like the 11+', I meant a far more general, far more abstract test of basic intelligence, perhaps incorporating a teacher's gut instinct and a diverse set of logical and lateral-thinking puzzles.

Without wishing to denigrate such as worthy profession, I wouldn't give two fucks for some teachers' "gut instincts".

3rd proposal: middle class twats to stop gettin' the vapours when their kids come within two feet of a poor person, or a black person and stop kicking the step-ladders out from beneath anyone who's a potential rival to Little Johnny's future career prospects

... but I won't hold my breath on that one

a diverse set of logical and lateral-thinking puzzles

what does this even mean? havent we learnt by now to stop seperating our society out. for there to be good schools there have to be bad schools, sorry, 'not quite as good schools'

Does being good at lateral thinking puzzles make you more suited to plumbing or medicine?

i hear these "middle class" parents are having a hard time getting their kids into the best (in terms of location as much as anything else) schools.

as Ken said himself on TV last night, London is baby booming.

Gareth, I only wish all schools were good, but realistically, this is never going to happen! You could propose, however, a means by which teachers are shuffled around in an ATTEMPT to equalise all schools. That would be an interesting proposition.

Onimo, not necessarily, but it might raise your chances of having the sort of mind that would allow you to make a major scientific breakthrough later on in life.

its the great irony of capitalism, for there to be rich people there obviously have to be poor people, yet all rich people do is worry about the fact that there are poor people on their doorstep.

i hear these "middle class" parents are having a hard time getting their kids into the best (in terms of location as much as anything else) schools.

lol@gentrifiers

You could propose, however, a means by which teachers are shuffled around in an ATTEMPT to equalise all schools.

You could also propose ending private education and grammar schools.

YOU COULD. I'd be interested to see how that worked!

Also, I sincerely hope that 3rd proposal wasn't aimed over here. We're not like that in the slightest.

i already saw that you ceded that we should "differentiate pupils in a nunaced way", and i said so, and further said that this is happening. it used to happen before the SATS and NC structure was enforced. teachers like streaming abilities - it's a great, if coarse, way to deal with a diversity of needs.

Even with 'just state schools', though, some would clearly be more academic than others.

Alan, this is what I'm saying. I'm saying that SATS are a bad, bad thing, and NV in fact compared my model to the previous one (whilst admittedly describing that previous one as shite).

YOU COULD. I'd be interested to see how that worked!

You could call it COMPREHENSIVE EDUCATION

At my school the boys with the poorest grades were also the most disruptive/class joker OR bullyish types and this was pretty clear by the end of the first year even (with 4 more to go). Only one or two of them were financially disadvantaged or from single parent households (other kids in this position did well of course). None of them stayed on after GCSEs to do A-Levels. The teachers tried to instil discipline, perhaps not hard enough, but they failed ultimately. If these kids had been all put together into the same form early on with dedicated and strict teachers assigned to tutor them for the rest of their time at school that might've helped, but being in the same classes as your friends was often a distraction for most kids - isolation unhealthy and not really feasible either. Not sure what the answer is.

in fact teacher gut instinct is nearly ALL that is used to say which set a kid goes in. there is no structure to say (that i know of) if you get score X you are in set Y next year. teachers use scores from various tests and their judgements, plus practical constraints, to stream kids.

Can someone let me know when this thread gets around to sending them back up the chimneys? Ta.

We could send them to work in the mines.

Oh wait.

do any teachers post to ilx?

They've got proper work to do

i doubt if working teachers have time to post to ILX during office hours like us slackers. (i was very briefly a teacher, and it was a long time ago.)

x-post!

There are a few teachers and former teachers on ILX. I'm not sure if any of them teach/taught at primary school level.

That's why I was careful to say "some teachers" when I was slagging them off :)

i teach a post-grad course part-time, tho i'm guessing my perspective won't be much help here.

its the middle classes that are going to feel the real pain over the next decade or so

-- 696, Friday, 22 June 2007 10:35 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Link

hahahaha!

As opposed to the people who don't have enough money to get easy credit, I suppose? Or is the only real pain that which is suffered by the middle classes?

I think that was supposed to be a joke

i think gareth was being ironic, tho i really never know for sure anymore.

well its kind of a joke but yea, cheap credit basically (working class have already been fucked over, but until the middle class feels the pinch everything is good with the world never had it so good etc etc)

Or is the only real pain that which is suffered by the middle classes?

dingdingding you could get this impression if you watched the bbc or read newspapers

(ps my comment not meant as a slight on gareth, more my reading comprehension)

wait a minute, dom has interviewed more than one p0rn star? weird.

bring back the workhouse.

something about wrestling i thought

-- 696, Friday, June 22, 2007 11:17 AM (9 months ago) Bookmark Link

Shane Douglas used to be a teacher before he wrestled.

-- Dom Passantino, Friday, June 22, 2007 11:22 AM (9 months ago) Bookmark Link

So did Spike Dudley