can we talk about MAD MEN on AMC?

Is it really any good? I was vaguely interested but...AMC!

I know! the channel that shows independence day over and over again as a classic!

nevertheless...it was really tremendously good. give it a chance!

Seems like it's trying to be the American Life on Mars, kinda.

everyones sexist, racist, smoking their asses off and drinking at their job, whats not to like? looks great too, a great-looking show this is

I like things about ad men

Saw this show for the first time tonight. FANTASTIC.

Impeccable design, at least a few scenes as strong as prime-grade Sopranos.

I love that I don't recognize these actors at all, so they're just the characters to me.

you guys are shitting me, right? I hate this show and the stupid ads where they pretend like they're so clever. The lead is so fucking stiff and everyone recites the dialogue like they're reading Shakespeare in high school. BOO

It's 1959, of course he's stiff! Get a drink or two in him and he loosens up, like the rest.

i think it's a lot of fun. some of the "look how people used to behave" stuff is heavy-handed, but mostly it works, and it's balanced by the characters. it's a good era to look back at, right on the cusp of lots of things. and everything looks so good.

heard an interview w/ the creator on a re-run of "Fressshhhh Air" last night. It sounds like it could be pretty interesting and the guy did a damn fine job of describing/ selling his aesthetic. But the couple of clips they played sounded kinda blah.

Of course, what can you really tell from audio clips of a tv show? I'm sure bits from the Sopranos would sound just as blah over the radio, esp. if you weren't familiar with the show.

I really like this show.

the couple of clips they played sounded kinda blah.

well there's not a lot of action or anything. mostly people sitting around talking. but it's interesting anyway. the idea is basically to sketch an era (from the perspectives of our own, of course), so every little scene contributes to the bigger picture. i like how ambitious it is -- they're angling to bring the nixon-kennedy race into the picture, and who knows what else. i'm definitely hooked enough to watch the whole first season. i hope there will be more.

well it wasn't so much the lack of action as the dialogue and delivery. But again, without actually seeing it I should reserve judgement.

i've seen one episode and it was impressive!

pretty amazing look at office life pre-feminism and pre-technology, it's like another planet.

some of the "look how people used to behave" stuff is heavy-handed

I caught a bit of it and yeah this was a little off-putting, it seemed very self-satisfied, no subtlety.

pretty amazing look at office life pre-feminism and pre-technology, it's like another planet.

this made me think of Wilder's "The Apartment", which is probably 10x better than this will ever be...

some of the "look how people used to behave" stuff is heavy-handed

this is kind of what I was thinking.

or I should say, what I could easily see happening.

I will refrain from posting any more on this thread until I've seen it.

the heavy-handedness is less off-putting if you consider the show as a kind of comedy, which i think it is (or at least a comic drama). those moments -- the pregnant mom smoking and drinking, the kids scrambling around the car without seatbelts, the casual anti-semitism -- are gags of a sort, and they're kind of funny.

(i mean, i laughed when the one guy smacked the other guy's kid, and the other guy's only response was to threaten to smack the kid again.)

I agree that such moments are intended as comedy, but to me they're a little too obvious and smug.

(by smug I mean that the comedy is rooted in having a feeling of superiority - primarily of an ethical and behavioral nature - over the characters. Its kinda mean and simplistic).

Sopranos does the same thing with its characters - often having them doing/saying unbelievably stupid and/or cruel things to one another - but there the comic trick was subtler, because it was always offset by conscious efforts to make the characters as sympathetic as possible.

i think the characters here have some depth and complexity. none of them are completely unsympathetic (except minor characters, like pete campbell's horrible father and the man from bethlehem steel). and presumably more of them will be fleshed out as it goes along. (the closeted graphic designer, e.g., is just a type right now but i'm guessing he'll get some episodes to himself.)

partly i like the similarities to far from heaven, because i kind of fantasized about following the characters in that movie over the next decade or so, seeing what happened to them as they went through the '60s, and this show has at least the potential for that. like, what will don draper's 7-year-old daughter be like as a 17-year-old in 1969?

also, i admit i'm mostly enjoying having a weekly show to watch again. i was never a sopranos watcher, so i've been bereft since the 4th season of the wire ended.

(i've only seen the first season of the sopranos, but it took a while for those characters to emerge as more than types too.)

what about the "don draper isn't who he says he is" storyline that's set to emerge? i would have thought that the show had enough dramatic possibility to work with without going into something like that.

the guy who plays draper kind of gave away the game on that one in one of the post-show interviews, didn't he? he said something about draper being from a real hardscrabble, orphaned background. i didn't get the sense he's so much "living a lie!!" or anything, just that he doesn't talk about it. but maybe there's more to it.

(draper would make sense as a G.I.-bill striver)

oh, no - there's definitely more to it. in the 2nd episode he was recognized on the train by an army buddy who called him by a different name, and in the preview for next week's ep someone from his past shows up exclaiming "i can't believe it. it's really you!" or words to that effect.

oh yeah i forgot that bit on the train. well hopefully they won't make it anything too stupid.

My prediction? Draper = Gatsby

HE'S THE RUSSIAN FROM SOPRANOS

All I know is that scenes like that one near the end about WWII-era guys drinking vs. Korea-era guys drinking is why I watch TV or read books or see plays, as much or more so than the plots.

And I thought the subtleties of the Bethlehem Steel pitch and the mock-ups worked well, too. The idea that the junior guy wasn't adding much to what was there already, but he came up with a word and metaphor, backbone, that convinced the guy.

And, come on, guys sitting around smoking and listening to a Bob Newhart record!

so the secret-identity stuff was handled ok. i liked the way the episode ended. and the relationship dialogue in the show is good, like the way don's wife feels him out about buying summer home and he demurs and she says something like, "good, i like seeing my father."

Pimpin' aint easy.

Should I torrent this, Americans?

oh yeah the pete campbell thing. like "you fucked him before, now you can fuck him for me." sweet.

xpost: sure. it's pretty good.

I haven't seen last night's episode, but last week's was really fantastic. I liked how they managed to show the position of the blueblood junior ad exec from multiple angles which made the final scene where he's looking out over the skyline seeing that from his vantage point the city is ostensibly his even though he knows he's completely mediocre and unworthy.

Also, divorced mom's kid is delightfully weird.

he's a big jew obviously!

this show could be so much better. all the wife-in-therapy stuff... i mean.. really? already? they should really have pulled an ER and just shown the working world, it's SO much more interesting. as it stands they don't really do that stuff too well either.

and all that divorced-mom-with-volkswagen stuff is so pandering. yes we know times were changing.

yeah, fair criticism. i like it anyway.

So far I've watched an episode and a half- pretty good. Like a Rock Hudson-Doris Day movie crossed with the seedy opening love of Pyscho with accompanying Saul Bass opening credits.

I was kinda hoping that for historical accuracy the Greenwich Village club scene would have an extra dressed up as Moondog and another as Tiny Tim.

"It's like watching a dog play the piano." Wow.

I like this show. I enjoyed the fact that the tone of the show holds the beatniks in as much contempt as the soulless ad men. My fear is that it will become message-oriented, askew its historical climate and not allow the characters to wallow in their sexism, racism and homophobia--that they will learn their lesson about diversity. I want to see them "learn" their lesson only insofar as it allows them to make more money and become more attuned ad men. Really, in my mind, this setting is the birth scene of the new right in America.

whats up with the redhead secretary saying "you know what they say, the medium is the message"? did that phrase exist in 1960?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message

The phrase was coined by McLuhan in his 1964 book, Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man.

It's anticipatory plagiarism, like Leo DiCaprio saying "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose in Titanic.

all seven episodes running in marathon this weekend.

I want to like this show, it's very pretty to look at, and the city and the office almost take on the quality of a fable. But there's not a single character or even a single line of dialogue in any of the episodes I've seen that makes it seem even vaguely interesting beyond that. MAYBE the jewish department store heiress, but since she only ever interacts with Draper (the sociopath in the dishwater suit) it's all cancelled out. Pete and Dan are more pathetic than anything. I know this character arc, they both get cancer in their fifties and their children don't miss them when they die.

The monologue about why post-Depression guys drink vs. post-WW II guys is one of many scenes that are as good as stage drama or Sopranos.

ha, ok

"if you like television, or theater, there's a few lines in this show that you might also like!" don't turn me into Morbius on this thread

dude: "how are your cigarettes made?"
young cig exec: "i have no idea."
old cig exec: "shame on you."

^^ i like that. it's the only episode i've seen.

likeD

I finally got around to watching the first four episodes. I want to like this more than I do. But I'll probably keep watching, if for no other reason than to watch Draper nail the divorced neighbor. Or at least some vague reference to her sleeping with Democratic hopeful John F. Kennedy.

i liked that little exchange.

honestly, i'm watching this show first and foremost for the incredible set design/costuming. i'm obsessed with this kind of stuff, and it's enough to keep me mostly paying attention for an hour or so each week.

xpost

if by "incredible set design/costuming" you mean "redhead secretary," i'm with you

"fancy cigarette-dispenser gadget"

I was cool with the redhead secretary until she turned out to be a slut for draper's boss. I've already seen this movie too!

ROGER!

IF ILX HAD AVATAR IMAGES WHAT WOU,D YOURS BE????

i thought that was going to be him yakking up oysters/martinis..

i am so using the line "dont let me see the bottom of that drink".

i'm still enjoying it. on the scale of recent tv shows i've enjoyed and reasons why, it sits maybe closer to the first season of grey's anatomy than to the wire. but the soapiness doesn't bother me and the social commentary is kind of funny even when (most of the time) very obvious. not sure where they're going with draper's neurotic-nympho wife, but i like that the actress is named january jones. and the design, yes, it's nice to fantasize that's how everything looked then. (seems to be taking a cue from in the mood for love maybe. design porn.)

IN THE 1950S PEOPLE WERE MEAN BIGOTED DEPRESSIVE DRUNKS BUT EVERYTHING LOOKED FABULOUS.

(also the new republic seems to be leading a backlash against the show, which is enough to make me like it on principle.)

Which Ep. had the discussion of the various veterans drinking styles?

I'm watching the episode called "The Hobo Code." For all your Sopranos talk did you notice that the drifter was Father Phil, once again cadging a free meal?

ok so the Nixon vs. Kennedy episode actually has some shit in it. I might have to start paying attention now.

Is there more coming? That felt a lot like a season wrap to me.

it's been renewed for another season.

just watched the season finale. overall, i still like the show a lot. kept a nice balance of soap opera/satire/social commentary. good cast. one scene in the last episode felt very lynch-y -- when draper's wife (january jones looks v. much like a lynch girl) was talking to the divorcee's kid, with his front tooth missing. made me think there's actually a fair amount of lynch influence in the show, although more in its details than its ambiance or narrative.

love this show - only six episodes in (though i've been spoiled enough)(apparently kennedy wins?), 1/2 ice storm prequel 1/2 the conquest of cool: the miniseries.

i don't see that at all, tipsy. there's some actual gristle and personification in mad men, not a lynch-like weird cynically bracketed 'all-americanism' that hides some real rottenness.

and by job was i gobsmacked by the peggy plotline

that scene (xxp) seemed sort of uneven to me...really loved the kid and the last line of 'i dont really know how long 20 minutes is' but didnt 100% buy birdie as asking kid to tell her it will be allright...dunno, seems minor to focus on 1 line but i wouldve rather she rambled more about herself.

well the personification is pitched at some halfway level between self-conscious types (the lynch-y melodrama mode) and "real" characters. there is some cynicism there, but it's not a thoroughgoing cynicism. more sardonic than cynical, really. i don't mean to overemphasize the lynchyness, it was really that one scene that brought it to mind. the show has a character all its own.

less pete campbell, more christina hendricks in skintight dresses

word. (whoa wikipedia sez c.h. is a knoxville girl. raised in idaho though.) as for pete, i'm hopin season 2 finds him drunk in a gay bar with salvatore.

Any other UK types currently lapping up this stylish, restrained, subtly dark and sometimes very funny series?

oh ye. The series started off a bit lol sexism, but is starting to do a good line in people confronting their bullshit. Also is funny.

The Roger puking up oysters episode was great.

Best US import around on UK TV at the minute. Didn't see last night's, but that's what iPlayer is for.

Also repeated tomorrow on BBC2.

Pam & I sat drooling at the set design/props in ep 1 and then couldn't work up the enthusiasm to watch it again. Actually, I did see about half of another episode but it seems to be being repeated all over the shop on BBC4, so I'll probably eventually see it all.

It takes a while to get into, I wasn't properly sucked in till ep 3 or 4.

xposts! Yes, we're hooked. I can't say I love it, but I really like it. Have held myself back from reading all of above thread for fear of spoilers, but I'm also a little wary of backstory/flashbacks/man with a secret stuff. More and more impressed with dude who plays Draper.

I think last night's on BBC4 ("Red In The Face") is the tipping point for me from general enjoyment and delight in the production design and sets to being properly in love with this show. What did it was the note perfect series of vignettes, especially Peggy's dance and rebuff from Pete, the beatniks, and the hobo "lore of the gatepost" and the way it tied in with the scene with Don and his little son.

The characters have all bedded down now and they are pulling off the trick of moving the story and characters forward but without it feeling at all clunky or mechanistic (something the Sopranos also did brilliantly at times). Even the more throwaway bits are still blessed with gorgeous photography and great music.

>Have held myself back from reading all of above thread for fear of spoilers

Me too - don't want to ruin it now!

Maybe we should start our own thread before the americans wake up and start bustin out the spoilers.

LOVE LOVE LOVE this show, best drama on tv now that sopranos and the wire are gone. i swear if this thing had been on hbo instead of amc it would've gotten crazy hype.

classic
http://media.tumblr.com/aGkz4XFcZ872u7x00HJm1D54_400.jpg

when's season 2?

July 27th!

o i just watched the whole thing - completely brilliant - cant believe everyone hating on it upthread

really looking forward to the new season. imo the show got stronger and stronger as it progressed.

yea im just in the middle of this: freakin awesome.

im not sure if it got better or it just kept going deeper adding complexity - either way it def kept exceeding my expectations - im pretty much fascinated by every single character except maybe a couple of the secondary ad men

The early episodes had to have a lot of explanatory "Hah, people in the 50s sure were racist/sexist" in order for the latter stuff to have the right punch, so they did suffer.

petes speech abt hunting * glen telling betty he doesnt know how long 20 minutes is * don learning abt hobo symbols * roger apologizing to don for hitting on betty * the kodak carousel presentation

so many great moments!

lol all those are from the second half of the season so there u go

<3 <3 <3 rachel menken

im kind of like, this could all easily be set in the present rly; but some of the "lol they invented spray cans stuff" is lol.

roger apologizing to don for hitting on betty

Then Don's revenge on Roger!

the people upthread are right though, about the condescending tone. it always made me cringe. dude has a heart attack then says "i dont know how it happened. i did everything they told me to, ate the butter, drank the cream." is that shit supposed to be funny? a lot of bs lines like that seem to be there to make the middle-aged viewers feel good about their lifestyles.

I think it would lose a lot set in the present - it would have a very different visual aesthetic, for a start, and the working world doesn't have quite that level of casual misogyny, surely.

I saw one episode on TV the other night - Peggy gets birth control pills - that's Zoe Bartlett! I like to see more West Wingers out and about, even if they are slutting it up all over town in too-long skirts.

i don't know where you're getting condescending from, deeznuts: those lines are straight-up dramatic irony.

bert coopers reaction to petes don reveal was so classic - love berts whole yoda steez

that is bobby morse: he was a father of one of my former students, and apparently some of the delay in this season was due to some severe health problems he was experiencing. he was a really really decent guy when i met him.

hes really good - love the folksy confidence - lol at him being all im not really much of a drinker when everyone else in the office is trying to out manly each other

remy i wasnt invested in the series or anything so maybe that particular line was actually set up in prior scenes or something, but it seemed like a total throwaway line designed to give the audience a feeling of self-satisfaction

and in the eps i saw those were pretty consistent & always grating

i mean im assuming yr interpretation of dramatic irony is not "lol this married dude who just had a heart attack from fucking a 20 year old chick just said butter & cream are GOOD for him, when WE know now that is not the case!"

well, i think as isolated lines they are a little grating (or seem like they're trying to shock), but in the broader context of the characters' pigheadedness and wrongness on so very many things, they are a big component of the show's fabric

okay, also i lolled at the phony village beatniks

like any good period piece its gonna hit the shit thats aged absurdly while maintaining the underlying timelessness of human experience. im sure if any of us had a time machine there would be a lot of lol u fools are ignorant while we just ignored the universality of the situation.

okay, also i lolled at the phony village beatniks

-- remy bean, Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:38 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

its too bad these guys arent smart enough to call don on his nihilism in any sort of meaningful way

yeah that makes some sense & dont get me wrong im looking forward to regularly watching the upcoming season, but that kind of crap really stood out to me as a casual viewer

i think superficially at least it seems like the show is more concerned w/ making various points than realistically humanizing its characters, which is always a turn-off for me, but you could be right that given some investment it becomes justified xp

yah i find the characters absolutely compelling - def the best part of the show - their unique qualities challenging the urge to see them as museum pieces is just delightful tension

idk i dont remember the butter & cream line specifically but i think it's less of a nod to the viewer than internal sarcasm w/r/t them being ad men & spinning the health benefits(or lack of health detriments) of products like this (cigarettes also) while truthfully knowing the risks.

basically i think roger is trying to get a laff from his coworkers w/ that

TOO META

but seriously that would be brilliant if it werent for the fact that like 75% of those lines were spoken by the 'ignorant' housewives

or maybe that was supposed to demonstrate how ignorant housewives were in those days!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/22/magazine/22madmen-t.html

i mean im assuming yr interpretation of dramatic irony is not "lol this married dude who just had a heart attack from fucking a 20 year old chick just said butter & cream are GOOD for him, when WE know now that is not the case!"

-- deeznuts, Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:35 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Link

clarification: he says he was getting lots of dairy for his ULCER; it wasn't *that* much of a lol irony thing.

hope they bring cooper back, though. i also hope they bring back the divorcee: january jones's meltdown in the last ep was fire.

this is such an amazing fkn show.

i think superficially at least it seems like the show is more concerned w/ making various points than realistically humanizing its characters

I don't really get this, at all. Like, I keep trying to construct a rebuttal and just end up circling back to "watch the episodes again".

nat nytimes magazine article ^^^ contains some fascinating info but also mild SPOILERZ - so be warned

psyched for the new season

jon hamm is really fuckin fantastic, sort of unbelievable i think

"unbelievably good" i mean

agreed completely

too bad hbo passed on it - would be even better w/swearing and boobs

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/06/17/magazine/22cover-395.jpg

i think superficially at least it seems like the show is more concerned w/ making various points than realistically humanizing its characters

The Chicago Tribune interview I linked to on the other thread does a good job of explaining what Matthew Weiner is trying (and I think succeeding) to do with his characters.

Can't wait for the new season.

One of the things I was thinking the other day that I hope they do is make Pete at least a little sympathetic in the coming season. The situation they've put him in--even though he's a self-serving little prick--could make for good drama if he becomes something more than a one-sided character.

lol i find pete v sympathetic - hes just incredibly clueless - v little relationship to reality w/the cursed talent and resources to keep it at arms length. like he could easily be a good guy if he knew what that looked like - but he doesnt cause he was raised by wolves.

agree -- none of the characters are 100% sympathetic, but i kind of feel for pete's family situation a little.

Well, that's what I'm saying; they should exploit that a bit more by not always making him such a turd (or perhaps not having Draper, Cooper, Stirling, et al. be so unified in their disdain of him).

his hunting story was one of the highlights of the season

i want to read pete's talking bear story

i just started watching this last night; first episode is good but yeah, obvious, etc. so I'm glad to see this gets toned down and things get more complex and nuanced as it goes on.

it's kind of wack to say, but i felt really low when the sopranos ended for a few days: loved this show so much i felt that low after i finished the first season. and it's back in a month.

definitely looking forward to chuning in this season. also kind of wack to say but there isnt a single tv show going right now thats must-watch for me or close to it; hopefully thisll be that.

Cameo appearance contest

http://blogs.amctv.com/mad-men/2008/06/mad-men-contest-early-submissions.php

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i191/fluxion23/shoot.jpg

Grace Kelly never did that.

Minor spoilers:
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/37398

yeah that's pretty minor, seeing as how it doesn't say anything, and then has a disclaimer to the nothing that it says.

ok, from the same ep as before -- who designed this dress?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i191/fluxion23/dress.jpg

It's, like, the greatest dress ever made.

It outlines the whole show's overall structure, which I didn't know before.

xpost to snark

yeah, yer right, I didn't know that, either. I was put-off by the classic AICN commentary. "Which means we’ll probably see Don Draper switch to turtlenecks, drop acid and put the bone to a few damn dirty hippies!" Oh god shut up shut up shut up right now.

Christ yeah, you've got to turn your hyperbole and bad pun filter on when you delve into AICN.

Or just your insufferable dumbass filter.

Just watched the whole first season over the weekend. Great, great series all around. Looking forward to the second season in a couple weeks.

Watching the whole thing in rapid succession probably works best for story continuity, especially when a lot of what's great about the show is buried in details. However, the one thing that seemed forced and unnecessary and with nowhere to go was Joan's roommate outing herself as a lovestruck stalkerish type. Oh, and the fact that Don/Dick's mysterious backstory had the makings of something better than it turned out to be, but the fact it was just brushed off by Cooper making Pete look like even more of a twerp was satisfactory payoff.

I was shocked by how much I ended up enjoying this show (given that the character's are pretty much without fail completely repellent.) I think I could watch a whole show just about creepy as fuck Pete Campbell. What a trainwreck of a human being.

I love how well cast Pete is. There's no suit in the world that doesn't make him look like a child playing dress-up. Which is like, exactly.

Ok -- who else got all misty during Don's slide show presentation? Show of hands. Come on, you can admit it.

This is some pretty great TV, right here.

The slide show was nice. Not misty material, though.

Homeslice who got kicked out of his house for fooling around certainly thought it was. :)

Everyone is really well cast. In fact I'm not sure the show would do half as well with different actors (imagining someone other Draper or Campbell or Betty in those respective roles is nigh impossible although I guess they would have shaped the show around a different actor).

I didn't get misty about the slideshow, but I was strangely moved by the final shot even though I don't normally have much sympathy for Draper's "problems".

Yeah, I thought the slide show set up the real punch of the final scene.

Also got misty guy was great in his underwear in Draper's office earlier in that episode.

IMDB says "Roger Stirling" will be back for the whole second season. I'm glad to see they haven't written him out of the story altogether, because more Roger = more Joan.

I was strangely moved by the final shot even though I don't normally have much sympathy for Draper's "problems".

agreed, but in this respect the show falls very much in line with the Sopranos tradition (and since the creator essentially said he's not going to pretend that the Sopranos isn't the template he's trying to follow, I guess maybe that's obvious). The 'hero' is incredibly flawed and messed up. I still kind of like him though. I even kind of like and feel bad for Pete Campbell sometimes, he's just so fucking pathetic.

It doesn't look like season 2 is jumping forward very much in time from the stills I saw the other day; maybe a year or something. It's not going all summer of love.

Roger is kind of unbearable, but more Joan is wonderful.

Does anyone else think that maybe Cooper is the guy who came by Don's hosue when he was a kid? They very obviously put that flashback in the same episode where Cooper says "you're like me" and Cooper's not caring about the big reveal made me suspect that this was an open issue b/w him and Draper for a long time.

season 2 = 1962

16 emmy nominations this morning.

One for the Wire! (This was probably better than the Wire this year, to be honest.)

"Does anyone else think that maybe Cooper is the guy who came by Don's hosue when he was a kid?"

I doubt it. I suspect the reason Cooper doesn't care is because Draper = $$$ and Pete Campbell = jack shit.

cooper, as a big ayn rand fan, would eat up the story of a poor whore's kid re-creating himself as one of the most successful ad men in new york

True, but that's not the story Pete told cuz he didn't know it (that said the story of potentially AWOL maybe murderer re-creating himself holds it's own allures, I suppose.)

Where in Cooper's personal philosophy do Ayn Rand and trimming bonsai trees intersect? There's a brain teaser.

intricately sculpted pubes glistening in the moonlight on the seventy-fifth floor of a glass-and-steel skyscraper

why you gotta go and drag pubes into this

yes yes, I know... that's what she said.

TONIGHT (in the states...tomorrow, let's hope, for the rest of the world)

awesome

v. EXCITED

mmhmmm...not that I expected this show to really start the season with some kind of blow-up episode, but that was a little...slow.

Nah, yer just too old for the muscular new poetry. ;)

This show is so insanely literate - its like a big love letter to the writers of the 40s and 50s. Sloan Flannery age of anxiety robert penn warren and all that... Betty's character is really incredibly done... the "some days this is all I think about" bit sends chills down my spine.

betty's flirtation w. prostitution is pretty rad.

so was mine

j/k, it wasn't a flirtation

That was the most ridiculous sweater in history. I loved it.

Also:

"Do you want to have kids?"

Just read this thread from the start and I am so amused by the haters when this started and the cult followers here now. I love love love this show. Whoever upthread said it's like Rock & Doris meet Hitchcock...OTM

I haven't seen last nites season opener...saving it until Ihave two to watch back to back

*bangs head* addict addict...

Now I am quietly waiting for
the catastrophe of my personality
to seem beautiful again,
and interesting, and modern.

The country is grey and
brown and white in trees,
snows and skies of laughter
always diminishing, less funny
not just darker, not just grey.

It may be the coldest day of
the year, what does he think of
that? I mean, what do I? And if I do,
perhaps I am myself again.

- Frank O'Hara, Mayakovsky

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/books/review/Logan-t.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Frank O'Hara stirringly otm as usual, and if it's not too strange to add, also handsome in exactly the right way, more odd than bookish, and more ugly than pretty.

"However, I have never clogged myself with the praises of
pastoral life, nor with nostalgia for an innocent past of
perverted acts in pastures. No. One need never leave the
confines of New York to get all the greenery one wishes--I can't
even enjoy a blade of grass unless i know there's a subway
handy, or a record store or some other sign that people do not
totally *regret* life."

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/KillaKastro_2007/6fhaxc6.jpg

http://bp1.blogger.com/_LmSR0uNyaSo/SIiQ48dk4QI/AAAAAAAAAZ8/R2_B4pvGTV4/s1600-h/610x-2.jpg

lolmakeupandwardrobe

too bad hbo passed on it - would be even better w/swearing and boobs

This couldn't be more wrong if ILX WHIPPING BOY said it -- the hair-coming-down scenes (cf. Don & wifey post-hangover, wifey humping the washer / dryer, even Pete's bear story) wouldn't have half as much impact if there was T&A and "fuck" all over the place.

So glad that Peggy found her professional sea legs by the end of S1, especially when she stood up to Red w/ that gloriously withering "oh my god, you actually think you're helping" line.

And add me to the list of folks what got mildly misty during the Carousel scene.

http://media.tumblr.com/0RT7wSWSTc352c59zgjHevIO_400.jpg

Proof the show would be just as cool set in 2008.

You're absolutely right, but Jesus, I kind of wish I'd never seen that.

There's facial hair where there shouldn't be.

More Jon Hamm facial hair to be had in the Day The Earth Stood Still remake, I think.

Pipe dude's beard = A++

Don's transformation into borderline rapist this past episode was a bit harrowing

I'm just catching up now; the first episode was a little too Setting Up Big Themes For The Season, but otherwise, awesome. Episode 2 in particular might be the best thing they've done so far.

"It's like watching a dog play the piano." Wow.

-- Bill in Chicago, Friday, August 24, 2007 11:21 AM (11 months ago) Bookmark Link

Saw this episode last night and this made me spit beer all over the place.

Don's transformation into borderline rapist this past episode was a bit harrowing

-- akm, Wednesday, August 13, 2008 6:17 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

yes - it was unnecessary, and a bit sloppy? i kinda hated it: it was shocking, sure, but not in the way i think it should have been.

don just seems all round grizzlier this season. i think the medical check-up was meant to take some of the edge off invincible don draper. i like how his facial hair growing ability is clearly at odds with setting the show in the clean shaven sixties, too, and he's always got a slight homer simpson beard going on.

Part of the weirdness was that he executed the maneuver as if it had been carefully choreographed by Alvin Ailey

i think it is a big plant; i predict it will pay off in spades later during the season. (see also: don's conversations w. peggy, betty's call-girl friend.)

more Jimmy Barrett pls.

more Jimmy Barrett pls.

doesn't seeing him/watching mad men just make you want to be awful and sexist and dashing? like with the sleazy steel guy schmoozing the girls when pete campbell had taken him out to pitch an idea.

it just makes me want to have more class and style... not necessarily be sleazy to broads.

best episode of the season so far

^otm

Maybe the best single episode of the show so far.

jimmy barrett is great and is also played by the guy who gets scared behind the diner in mulholland drive

has a distinctive face

there were some fantastic shots of don & betty in the last two episodes particularly in the car 2 wks ago. i wish i had a painting of it

MOZART!!!

Maybe the best single episode of the show so far.

otm^^^otm On the whole, every episode this season has been better than anything in season one.

really? I kinda thought it peaked mid-season 1, I've been a little underwhelmed by s2

last night's was pretty good though, my fave so far this year

MOZART!!!

hahaha yeah that was pretty unbelievable

I felt kinda dumb that it didn't occur to me until today that of course Pete's not infertile, he already has a kid!

ayo who was don posting that poetry to in s02e01? im guessing the department store heiress but i need shit spelled out...

It was pointedly not revealed. I'm thinking the boho chick, myself.

yea i was thinking they'd have revealed it by now is all. guess they will.

mustve been the hep chick - what w/the this existential shit i saw a beatnik reading reminded me of u note

That segue from Campbell in the doctor's office w/ the spank mag (turning down the US News & World Report!) to Sterling playing with the paddle ball (and the paddle-fapping sound overlapping w/ Campbell's scene just after Pete leaves the frame) = Emmy-baiting editing.

lol @ mozart

really? I kinda thought it peaked mid-season 1, I've been a little underwhelmed by s2

The pacing of the S2 episodes is better and the plots are less aware of themselves. There's less "look we're in 1960" obviousness.

Or they've gotten better @ blending in those flourishes (cf. the discussion w/ the officer about the blood alcohol level, and Don getting off with a fine).

That segue from Campbell in the doctor's office w/ the spank mag (turning down the US News & World Report!) to Sterling playing with the paddle ball (and the paddle-fapping sound overlapping w/ Campbell's scene just after Pete leaves the frame)=Emmy-baiting editing.

It also made Joan's line "you can hear you doing that out in the hall" a lot funnier

it reminded me of a sopranos moment; when vito was hooking up with the fireman guy, it cut from those two collapsing onto a bed to a close up of a toy train going into a tunnel. which reminds me: when we saw don's flashback to childhood, with the guy who works on his family's ranch, i remember staring at that guy wondering who he was. and then last episode i started thinking about the role of creepy priests in this and the sopranos, and remembered that it was the creepy priest. i think.

interesting theories about the o'hara book.
it keeps getting better, anyway. i think there's a slight predictability to some of it that comes with the weird historical/representative veneer of sixties-ism that its shot in - so you know that the bed's about to break, or the car's about to crash. and i think they need to do something so that the characters, particularly the females, can operate outside of binary docile/upset modes. but it's getting great. peggy especially.

i was assuming the book was not for the beatnik chick coz like... wouldn't she already own it? but this episode kind of wraps it up for the heiress, so.

lol'd at pete's cop-out excuses for not wanting a kid: economy tanking, imminent nuclear war... nothing changes.

the paddle-ball edit had me disturbing the neighbours with my deranged lols.

Saw it for the first time Sunday. Handsome and well-acted, but is it about adultery every week? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

i also watched this the other day for the first time. there was a scene with different women getting dressed that was scored with what sounded like a decemberists song. is that a feature of the show - anachronistic (and crappy!) tunes? it kinda made me want to not watch it again.

i cringed @ the decemberists usage also. that is NOT a feature of the show. at least hasnt thus far been

that tune was jarring, but I didn't recognize it as the Decemberists.

The period refs in the dialogue come off as a little too knowing.

so dons daughter walks into the bathroom sits down while hes shaving and says dont worry daddy i wont talk i dont want you to cut yrself and he looks deeply into the mirror sees what and gets deeply freaked out?

obv his daughters offer to keep quite mirors his request to the disturbing bobbie barrett to keep her mouth shut. maybe hes just realizing what a horrible person and how his domineering ways have damaged those around him - but maaaaybe hes thinking of a past suicide attempt? eh cutting?

decemberists. ack.

Mirrors were all over this episode. and of course peggy was the only girl in that opening sequence who didn't get dressed in front of one.

maybe hes just realizing what a horrible person and how his domineering ways have damaged those around him

that's how I read it.

last night's wasn't very good

i just wondered cause of the "cut yrself line" and it did kinda look like he was having a particular memory xp

that made me wonder, too.

kinda compelling how last ep bobbie barrett told peggy to be a woman not a man in the business world then this week joan told her not to dress like a little girl.

curious to see what sort of plans peggy has to get her desk out of the break room.

yeah, i think peggy is going to be the character that i like this season now that rachel's presumably gone.

o man rachel is so painful - thats the sort of woman don should be spending his life with - except that hes a horrible person.

also rachel marring that guy who "loves comedians" :(

i love her! i wish don wasn't such a fucking asshole. in my head they have run off together and don isn't irretrievably fucked up.

i am not good at watching tv shows where i don't like anyone, so rachel was a saving grace last season.

yah everyone is kinda fucking insane

can we talk abt the advice don gave peggy when she was all fucked up in the hospital and shit? that was pretty potent stuff. quite empowering. but easily misunderstood (see: draper, don).

yeah, i like where they're going with don and peggy. peggy is the only woman i can stand to see don interacting with.

he has a genuine soft spot for her - not sure if thats anything more specific than theyre both outsiders trying to beat the system or if well find out she reminds him of his sister or whatnot - i guess maybe he just kinda likes her like people do

she is quite likable

she seems to be a person to him, unlike all the other women he knows. he recognizes her. i liked the the moment earlier this season when he told her sex doesn't sell, that her feeling something sells.

the show is good, though, at making me sympathize with characters i don't like, like Pete and Betty.

she seems to be a person to him, unlike all the other women he knows. he recognizes her. i liked the the moment earlier this season when he told her sex doesn't sell, that her feeling something sells.

-- horseshoe, Tuesday, September 2, 2008 1:51 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yah i keep thinking abt that scene!

i find pete highly entertaining - hes so disconnected - borderline autistic

he has no soul! but i did feel bad for him in that scene where don was the one he turned to when his dad died for advice on how to be a human. don!!!

he is like dwight schrute but more chilling.

It's like The Apartment, only not funny and everyone's a dick! (cept Peggy I guess)

pete is so absolutely pathetic and stupid I kind of like him

sometimes it's a little funny. i sort of agree with you about the adultery thing getting old, though, Dr Morbius.

also maggie siff is the prettiest.

xpost guys, i wouldn't be surprised if pete had 18 dead bodies in his basement.

o its v funny!

u should get the dvds morbs - youll prob like the show

omg the scene where petes mother gave his wife the pink elephant and she just stood there holding it LOOOOOOL i was dying!

that was cute. So did a regular character die in plane crash?

I was a peon in ad agencies for 8 years, I probly couldn't stand much more of the show for that reason even tho the pricks in my office couldn't smoke.

(also, I was hoping their Jackie/Marilyn bra pitch would fly, and then be kamikazed by Marilyn's imminent death)

no, nobody they knew died in that crash

petes dad was in the crash! he only had one scene ever tho

roger makes me laugh. and is also a fox.

xpost pete's dad died in the plane crash...not a regular but it's established in the first season that he's a cold bastard (shocker) and his relationship with pete is strained.

I was a peon in ad agencies for 8 years, I probly couldn't stand much more of the show for that reason even tho the pricks in my office couldn't smoke.

-- Dr Morbius, Tuesday, September 2, 2008 1:09 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

you should probably watch this show!

roger says amazing things always

no really, after experiencing live account execs and wanting to punch em you don't wanna be "entertained" week after week by such a show.

understandable

roger is kind of ruined for me as a character because john slattery has played the same guy before on desperate housewives/sex and the city.

she seems to be a person to him, unlike all the other women he knows. he recognizes her.

so true. he respects her because they're kindred spirits in many ways but I think the interesting thing this season is that peggy is starting to realize that she can never be the female don draper, as in her scenes with bobbie last week and joan this week. It's funny that joan says that peggy never takes her advice - the only person who peggy ever listened to before this was don.

well in order to move out of the secretary ghetto peggy had to ignore joans whole worldview - that it worked was a huge blow to her ego

but it doesn't really work either way? Peggy loses the little-girl outfits and she's immediately pulled onto their client's lap - it doesn't make her any more respected, just included. It'll be interesting to see where her character goes from here, whether she can continue being an Irene Dunne over a Jackie or Marilyn.

aw, when don tells her she's irene dunne!

i know! only good thing don does in the whole episode.

obv sitting on clients laps isnt the way to go - shes just figuring shit out ya know

yeah, jhoshea otm. i like how the narrative about peggy's trying to succeed in a man's world is both heavy handed and suspenseful.

well yeah that's the best thing about peggy, that she doesn't quite know who she is yet. xp

the thing is, she is so NOT Irene Dunne!

btw in last nights episode pete wonders how the ottomanelli brothers are going to treat him and his guests

OMG STILL THE BEST BUTCHER IN NYC!!!

so good

joans really lost some cashe since she got engaged eh - no way roger lets the new girl weasel her way back in otherwise

btw i realized pete goes tot the ottomanellis in the ues - i was thinking of the one on bleeker - not sure what their relationship is

WTF with the Mad-Man-date?

^lol. jimmy telling off draper was terrific.

The opening scene was amazing.

lulz at Draper chucking that beer can.

lulz at the ending!

but yeah the picnic scene was funny

ending was best part

so what was up with the car salesman flashback, I didn't really get that

was that woman looking for the don draper who died? and was like, "you're not him"?

assuming there'll be more on that later but also not sure why that made him temporarily not want a Caddy. just bad memries I guess

I thought that was an excellent episode, and so did a friend of mine, who explained why it seemed especially tight thusly: "In every scene, everybody wanted something." He should write screenplays.

so what was up with the car salesman flashback, I didn't really get that

was that woman looking for the don draper who died? and was like, "you're not him"?

assuming there'll be more on that later but also not sure why that made him temporarily not want a Caddy. just bad memries I guess

― dmr, Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:51 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Permalink

otm

don although preaching the gospel of leaving yr past behind has yet to full embrace it - a girl child somehow wed puking in teh new caddy cant help - nor can being pwnd by a 2nd rate comedian

btw excellent pwning jimmy - possibly best of the show so far

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTQ5Mjg3Mzk2OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNDI2MTc4MQ@@._V1._CR0,0,113,113_SS90_.jpg yr garbage and u know it

It's the awful truth that gives it that extra oomph.

totally

also mulholland drive best movie evar

The only (current) program I watch. Am I being hypocritical for disapproving of the era's rampant sexism, while simultaneously wishing that women still looked and dressed like Joan Holloway?

that bitch mad thick srsly

her hed super smal tho

I go home, and I laugh at you.

harsh toke

RESCREEN! asap

u think bettys vomiting portents a drift toward truth or just an affair w/that tedious man from the stables or both or what

So much in this episode -- don't forget about Jane out-manipulating Joan, and Sal getting way moony over Ken. Another favorite line of dialogue, from Ken looking at the Rothko:

Ken: "It's like looking into something very... deep. You could fall in."

Sal: "That's true. Did someone tell you that?"

Ken: "How could someone tell you that?"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nobodyssweetheart/sets/72157606178887453/

Yeah, Sal and Ken was the man-date I was talking about. Those two plus Betty - Most Unrequited Love Triangle ever.

Sal / Ken thing destined to end v. badly I think

drunken office party confession leads to a punch in the nose from mr. sensitive. or something like that

the young john mccain should do a cameo in mad men

Sal / Ken thing destined to end v. badly I think

It didn't even begin well. Only a question of *how* badly it will end. Somewhere between heartbreak and grave bodily injury, I'm thinking.

the dinner party scene was so ridiculously tense and tragic - sal treating his wife so poorly - ken oblivious

btw i realized pete goes tot the ottomanellis in the ues - i was thinking of the one on bleeker - not sure what their relationship is

as i understand it the various ottomanelli butcher shops are run by members of the same extended family, but aren't affiliated with each other. ues and bleecker st owners are cousins, i think? i actually bothered to find this out once upon a time; it's good nyc history.

was that woman looking for the don draper who died?

i was wondering when we were going to get back to this. you'd think that there would be at least a few people who remembered the real don draper.

so ridiculously tense and tragic - sal treating his wife so poorly

Tragic is otm. Because otherwise, Sal is the nicest person on the show, probably. Genial and sharp and always with the tie that stands out -- it's impossible not to like him (even if he does looks like a comic book superhero, which is a bit odd). And doubly tragic because his poor sweet wife doesn't seem to have the first clue what's up.

he's keeping ken's lighter close to his heart ;_;

it's actually closer to his crotch, no?

That's the trouble with his predicament, innit?

As Oates once said to Hall, "Get your dick out of your heart!"

total lulz at ending

No one? I thought the priest was fixing to do something immoral with Peggy, but now it appears he may simply wish to save her..

I only intermittently catch this show and can't follow the continuity at all when I do but I gotta say it is always rewarding. Last one I saw invovled Draper buying an expensive new car and being told he was a shitbag byt the TV comedian, followed by his wife puking in the car and then cut-roll credits = good shit

or was that the latest episode...? gay Sal dinner party scene was aces

the one you're talking about is the second-most-recent episode

joan has the biggest hips of any woman ive ever seen

liked the Joan plot this week .... she wants the Peggy I-have-a-real-career path now

aw the Joan plot was heartbreaking. fuck that fiance of hers.

She's got an honest to goodness hourglass shape, but I think costume is making a big difference.

http://images.google.com/images?q=christina+hendricks

xp - and fuck that new guy in the TV dept. too!

yeah definitely sad when they took the scripts away

its the Howitzer shell bras! but yeah she is va-va-voomed out

I think costume is making a big difference

saw her on some talk show where she said they have to wear all 50s-era bras and ridiculous girdles and shit

lol xpost

She must be pregnant, right? (I hope not - that would bum me out for more than one reason.)

(The character, not the actress, that is.)

I thought the priest was fixing to do something immoral with Peggy, but now it appears he may simply wish to save her.

that's actually one of my favorite things about the show, how it sort of sets up what seem like typical soap-opera situations but then lets them unfold with less drama and predictability than you think. it is soapy, but it's soapy in a sort of slow-burn way. i like the low-keyness of it, that it can make plot points out of sneaking into an office for a peek at a rothko or what beer a character buys for dinner.

xpost She must be pregnant, right?

I was wondering the same.. doesn't she seem a lot bigger and even sort of frumpier this season than last? Am I hallucinating? I was sad they took the scripts from her too, tsk. The downfall of being too good at your job!

i would not call her "frumpy," no.

Would they do two preggers storylines in a row? Doesn't seem likely.

I didn't think the back to back storylines made sense either but there is no doubt that this season's Joan is not as put together as last seasons'.. possibly she's unhappy and coming apart at the seams (haha)? I just am not getting the same polished effect from her this season.

The downfall of being too good at your job!

to me the point was that it would not even occur to anyone that she could do the job permanently, or would want to. they think she'd rather just "walk around being stared at" (a job description she herself probably would have embraced until recently but now is starting to see the light ... )

i thought something more was going to happen with the alcoholic at the dinner, but they kind of sidestepped the whole thing; he asked for tomato juice, but then almost delibertely didn't show if he drank anything during dinner and in fact, didn't show the dinner at all. which seemed weird.

I thought it was just showing how hard it is to be around all these people offering you a drink every two minutes. Betty poured him wine for dinner but it didn't show whether he drank it

that was another heartbreaker a few episodes ago, where he almost fell off the wagon and then shoved the dog out the door

i don't think that joan is any less put together this season by any means, but she's really hit a wall. the wily feminine philosophy that she tried so hard to impose on peggy has kind of collapsed under her. she's been outmaneuvered by the new girl, she no longer has roger's protection, the prized fiance that she worked so hard to get isn't going to let her be the boss, and just as she discovers that maybe she does want to be a part of the man's world that she derided in earlier episodes, her chance is taken away from her.

xpost - poor chauncey. :(

that was another heartbreaker a few episodes ago, where he almost fell off the wagon and then shoved the dog out the door

i thought it was pretty clear that he did fall off the wagon, he put the dog outside so it wouldn't watch him.

It's very tough for me to take even imaginary cruelty to dogs. I wanted to skin that fucker alive for that.

lauren otm about Joan--i feel like all the heavy-handed see, this is 1950's style sexism moments throughout the series are being redeemed in her storyline.

and despite the heavy-handedness, i think that the show does a good job in showing the toxic effects on both sexes.

> i thought it was pretty clear that he did fall off the wagon, he put the dog outside so it wouldn't watch him.

Hmmm...I didn't see it that way at all. I thought he was bugged by the connection to his married life and the finality of the split because of his wife's remarriage. But you could be right.

Didn't Duck refuse a drink during cocktails but say he might have a glass of wine with dinner?

easy to see it both ways. whatever the case may be, i think they're going to play out the uncertainty angle for a while, though.

xpost

to get back to the draper family: i'd love to see sally draper in 10 years.

that poor girl

she might end up like my mom, and just do a lot of drugs, or she might end up like my aunt, and move to colorado and become a buddhist

that's actually one of my favorite things about the show, how it sort of sets up what seem like typical soap-opera situations but then lets them unfold with less drama and predictability than you think. it is soapy, but it's soapy in a sort of slow-burn way. i like the low-keyness of it, that it can make plot points out of sneaking into an office for a peek at a rothko or what beer a character buys for dinner.

sooo OTM - I was just trying to figure out for myself why I love this show so much despite the soap-iness.

Man this season's fucking bleak - every character seems so lonely.

she might end up like my mom, and just do a lot of drugs, or she might end up like my aunt, and move to colorado and become a buddhist

that's another thing i like about it, that's it's so knowingly perched on the edge of all these things that the audience and writers know are coming down the line. it's entertaining to think about what each of the characters is going to be doing in 1968 or 1975 or 1982.

the show is so restrained--you keep expecting it to blow up into these intense fights or confrontations and instead it just ends with betty barfing

which says so much than more than a big dramatic scene.

looooved Betty's dress this ep - would wear that all day long too, though prob not while moping over my cheating husband.

*so much than more

And I loved the apron that went with it, Roz.

i wish bohemian girlfriend would come back

yeah the whole look was so great! xp

joan's at-home outfit was a+, too. made me regret giving away my vintage ski sweaters.

YES I COVET JOAN'S AT-HOME OUTFIT OMGGGGGGGGG

so fucking cute

it was nice, too, not to see her quite as locked-and-loaded as she is in her workwear, formidable as it is.

yeah and she sounded so perky and enthusiastic in that scene - kinda very not joan. usually she has that cool, husky thing going on.

she's always in character at work.

Joan looked stunning at home!

i wish bohemian girlfriend would come back

Yeah, I miss Midge.

> she's always in character at work.

On the cute, upturned nose.

heh to be fair, they're all in character at work.

is don ever out of character?

yeah, but sexy secretary is more of an archetype than, i don't know, sociopathic account exec. or maybe not...

i think jon hamm really earns his check in the moments when you think don just HAS to break character and he somehow doesn't.

like when his marriage threatens to dissolve.

I think Jon Hamm earns his check in the subtle ways he reacts to Betty's accusations that don't break character (I don't think people really do that much)so much as show it being less unflappable than he leads on.

i always read draper as still trying to figure out his 'character'!

jon hamm does great for example, in those moments when duck brings up betty and her amazing hosting skills and don looks just momentarily, almost imperceptibly, pained before continuing on as normal.

i think that is true in moments like when betty asks him if he hates her, like he actually has no idea if he does are not.

xpost

it seems like most of the other characters--in particular betty, joan, sterling--have a good sense of who they're supposed to be, and they play that character to the fullest--every time i watch don its like hes trying to figure out how he should react and what he should say. and i think because most of the other characters (and viewers!) assume that don is confident and capable and totally unflappable, they take that slow & calculated response as measured intelligence & maturity or whatever...

^^also why he and peggy come off as so perfectly alike - they're both unsure of who they need to be, peggy just more obviously so.

peggy is unsure because she's trying to do a thing that violates gender codes, don is unsure because he's trying to leave behind an entire life.

but yeah, i think they identify with each other.

btw i think its to jon hamm & the writers' credit that its always pretty unclear whether or not don has any idea what hes doing--they are hell of milking "performativity" and ill tell u what i am eating it up w/ all my lol-college-post-structuralist spoons

I was a little surprised that Betty is still dresssing "like a little girl" at the office, even though her try at sexiness while hanging with the men was an abject failure.

Not that she wasn't sexy - that it didn't get her the respect she clearly hoped for.

jon hamm is really great. it is quite a feat to get me to dislike such a handsome man.

gnarf - Peggy, not Betty.

Speaking of Betty, though, I expect the season will end with her fucking some other guy. Not Ken, though. If it's Sal, that would be extra fucked up.

"I was a little surprised that Betty is still dresssing "like a little girl" at the office, even though her try at sexiness while hanging with the men was an abject failure."

Peggy has lost a good deal of weight and though she dresses like a decent Catholic girl, she's a little less dowdy and a little more pared down. Also, I don't know why you think it was an abject failure when she got dressed to attend the celebration with the client. She managed to piss of Pete Campbell and that was probably half her fun right there.

they are hell of milking "performativity" and ill tell u what i am eating it up w/ all my lol-college-post-structuralist spoons

i'm 10 yrs out of college - what's my excuse?

every time i watch don its like hes trying to figure out how he should react and what he should say.

otm. not just in the sense of "gotta stay in character" but he's tamped down his emotions so much that he's thinking "how would a 'real' human being react to this"

> She managed to piss of Pete Campbell and that was probably half her fun right there.

Haha! True that, but more than that she wants to be considered an equal by the other execs, and she's def. NOT. Joan (as mentioned above) has just now realized this is even a possibility, and she wants it too. Joan understands people better, though, and I bet she leapfrogs Peggy in respect in one of next season's major storylines.

stupid question: is the show called mad men because:

a) they're ad men?
b) they work on MADison ave?

b.

its because they're all fucking bonkers

is she pete's old secretary?

were dudes in the "golden age of advertising" actually called mad men?

There's a title card at the beginning of the first episode that explains the title, literally anyway:

"Mad Men: A term coined in the late 1950's the describe the advertising executives of Madison Avenue. They coined it."

yep according to interview with creator (Weiner?) on NPR

i worked on madison ave for a while (not in advertising). the show makes me nostalgic for the oyster bar in grand central.

When Joan got passed over for the job she was doing so well at the TV dept., I was so bummed for her.

i wasn't really... she's been such a beeyotch, i always giggle when she gets her comeuppance.

it seems obvious that nobody in the office likes joan, and she's started to notice that her novelty value (as eye candy) has worn off among the boys. so she figures the only way people will pay attention to her is if she acts like peggy. (is joan's new squeaky high voice her way of peggying herself up?)

Isn't the other part of the Joan plot that when she tries to play at The Man's Game, she still lets part of her real personality show through (squeeing at the upcoming soap plotlines, "you won't believe what's coming up"/"you've made an unmissable show" etc etc). Although how much of this is her realising that her days as secretarial queen bee are over and how much is her wanting to get away from her husband I don't know.

I thought that was her being quite effective at ad sales, actually.

I loved the revelation that Joan's fiancee isn't technically a doctor yet (unless I'm not remembering it correctly). When it comes to Joan this season, I'm reminded of the bit where they posted her drivers license to reveal that she's in her 30's in the first season, and how embarrassed she was.

This show has the best final shots around. I loved Betty puking so abruptly, and Don getting the beer out of the fridge and revealing himself to be in the office was great.

the fiance is in his final year of residency, i think?

How much money on Betty sleeping with horse-riding dude next episode?

too obvious

the horse then?

As I said upthread, it'll be a season ending cliffhanger, so it's still a few episodes away. I dunno who, but probably not anyone from Don's office.

my money's on cooper

I think she may kill herself actually. Or try to kill him.

But it probably won't be anything so dramatic as infidelity, suicide or murder. The cliffhanger'll probably be that she burned a cake or something.

Yeah, Birdie having a revenge affair is not just way too soap-y, it's not her style. And she has mad style. Anyone who can destroy furniture without losing her composure is a special person indeed.

Bets will be out boffing horse riding dude while unattended klutzy little Draper jr inadvertently burns down the house.

I'd be very surprised if she has any more sexual a relationship with stable boy than she did with with the kid she gave her hair to. He called her "deeply sad," or something to that effect. And while she needs someone to see that, it's not hotness. That kind of line only works on college girls. Flaky ones, at that.

what line works now?

It's funny where this talk has gone.

Back to Mad Men - Peggy desrves the power she has, Draper can flail away and still come out alright. Joan ...she has JUST AS MUCH power in a way - she is Trusted to keep lots of secrets.

I have to go to sleep. But thank you, and xxoo to you all!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3213/2864106466_7ce7e4bc23_o.jpg

Have we done these yet?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nobodyssweetheart/sets/72157606178887453/detail/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/2728248750_64e6ff4c87_b.jpg

*Gulp*

damn that last ep was one of the best eps of anything.

The episode this week was ...kind of slow. Peeing your pants, really??

i liked the night out w/freddie. thought the twist at the end w/roger was a bit much.

yeah major lols @ roger running w/ don's drunken ramblings

I thought the twist was great, predictable and totally out of left field at the same time.

lots of good commentary about this episode on the basket of kisses fansite.

starting season 1 tomorrow

Season 1 is great, do not miss, but watching episodes again now, it feels almost like it's all setup. Season 2 has so far been *so* much heavier, denser, better. Not near as much winking this season, and a lot more "Oh, man. Ouch."

Peeing your pants, really??

I don't doubt they did their research, since they do with every other tiny detail of the show, but as drunk as I have been, it is difficult to imagine being so desperately alcoholic that you could seem fine one second, pee yourself, snap out of it and seem fine for ten more seconds, and then pass out. Sterling caled it "conduct unbecoming," I call it wayyy over the edge and a bit frightening.

"(also, I was hoping their Jackie/Marilyn bra pitch would fly, and then be kamikazed by Marilyn's imminent death)"

This gets mentioned!

Yes, directly! Peggy says something like, "Good thing they didn't go with the Marilyn idea," or some such.

The interplay between Peggy and Don this season has been so amazing. The acting is just marvelous across the board though.

i loved dons excuse - my kid is sick - yes don your wife is kind of a child

roger in love w/joan compensates w/dons secretary - tragic him n joan are perfect for each other - what a wonderfully zingy life theyd share

yeah i <3 roger and joan

Oh that's mean. Joan shouldn't get stuck with a dickhead like Roger.

roger is the awesomest

Ew.

suggest ban

Poor joan though, because, what kind of dickhead *should* she get stuck with? She has to wonder that a lot.

joan and roger are both brilliant charismatic jerks - and yet they deny destiny - wtf

fuck that playing house w/some doof bullshit

I don't think joan is a jerk at all. Of all the jerks in that office, she's maybe the only one who's forthright. Manipulative at times, but she'll tell you how and why.

tell us abt what happens when roger rears his head and comes into ilx airspace

me? what?

yes u yr post makes no sense so i compared u to palin!

mad men shares a narrow maritime border with reality

Joan doesn't strike me as a jerk at all.

xpost It really does.

I can see it from my house.

she's kind of a jerk. to Paul's girlfriend when he had that party, for example. i dig her, but no one on this show is really not a jerk except maybe for Peggy.

Peggy who pretends she does not have a child?

i think you need a more complicated word than "jerk" for that situation! but, yeah, she'll probably be a jerk soon enough!

i think don is a good guy in spite of his jerkiness (nb: he is still a jerk)

ok kenan first u say shes no a jerk then include her in her in yr grouping of "all the jerks in the office". then you imply that the definition of jerk is one who is not forthright and finish it all off by admitting that joan is highly manipulative as if that just couldnt be a characteristic of a jerk.

and gdamn alex have u bothered to notice how shes treated peggy the new girl paul etc

don isn't really a jerk, he's an ASSHOLE

don has genuine sympathy for some people but hes much too damaged to know himself at all

but yah don is much too potent to be a garden variety jerkface

As for Peggy, she nailed it herself when she said to Joan, "You really think you're helping, don't you?" As for the new girl, she's scary manipulative, and that exactly what Don can smell on her that made him demand she be gone. And as for Paul, that was uncalled for, but it was a nice dressing-down for his being an intolerable hipster.

i just meant he's not a casual jerk the way other characters are + sometimes he's quite sensitive about things they're not, but he has these dark pockets of awfulness.

Joan's stuff w/ Peggy is complicated though. Some of it's mean, but some of it is also well-meaning.

The new girl though? Give me a break.

Paul's a yutz. Everything she said to and/or about him was totally and completely true.

Anyway even if she is a jerk, she's doesn't deserve Roger.

and as for Paul's girlfriend? i thought that stood out because it was unnecessary.

just cause somethings true, just cause you think youre helping, doesnt mean youre not being a jerk.

SHE WAS MEAN TO PAUL'S GIRLFRIEND WHOM SHE HAD JUST MET BASICALLY BECAUSE SHE WAS BLACK. SHE IS V. BEAUTIFUL AND I LOVE HER CLOTHES TOO BUT SHE IS KIND OF A JERK.

Last week's episode was easily the best of the entire show, so I wasn't terribly upset that last night didn't match its greatness. There were some great scenes though (sucker-punching Jimmy, Betty bailing on lunch).

BTW, the casting for Jimmy Barrett is just genius. I remember that actor from that incredibly fucked-up dumped scene in Mulholland Drive and no one does that vacant and sinister freakiness like that dude.

her and roger have amazing chemistry and absolutely deserve each other even if joan does have awesome hueg boobs youd love to fall asleep between

I have to grant the point that she was mean to Paul's girlfriend because she was black, or more broadly beneath Paul's station, which is just as bad or worse, framing-wise. But her little polemic to Paul didn't feel untrue. Why IS he dating a grocery checkout girl, if not to prove how tolerant he is? Sticky area, I know, but it didn't feel especially unfair to Paul when she said that to him.

she was trying to hurt his feelings

i don't give a shit about what she said to Paul, i am saying she was indisuputably an asshole to his girlfriend!

also uh @ Why IS he dating a grocery checkout girl, if not to prove how tolerant he is?

I remember that actor from that incredibly fucked-up dumped scene in Mulholland Drive

Yes, thank you! I knew I knew him from somewhere, and it bugged me, but not enough to look it up.

i am saying she was indisuputably an asshole to his girlfriend!

Not arguing here.

also uh @

Uh oh. These are the things that race threads are spawned of. :(

how abt if don walked up to her and said hey joan freaked out abt getting old huh say hello to yr boring bullshit fiance for me u lowly secretary lol

how would you like that KENAN huh

or what if pete campbell said it PETE CAMPBELL

Anyone's jerk/not jerk status is relative to the fact that they're all jerks who work at the jerkstore. But the relative part is important.

whatever i'm not trying to make a federal case of it, and that observation as you phrased it isn't about race, unless you secretly meant it to be; i just think that reading of paul's relationship, which we basically know nothing about, is pretty close to Joan's reading which seems problematic given her jerkiness to said girlfriend.

if it's all relative i would like to bring up the fact that roger is a fox. anyway jhoshea is otm they clearly really dig each other.

it's always a relief to me when that happens on this show, like with don and rachel last season, it's like right these people aren't all anaesthetized sociopaths all the time.

lol kenan u backpedaling

but anyway on the relative jerkiness scale of sterling cooper id put joan somewhere in the middle - a median sort of hawt awesome jerk

is pretty close to Joan's reading which seems problematic given her jerkiness to said girlfriend

You're right. I wasn't setting out to defend it.

But is it wrong to read into Paul's neck kerchief and the bragging about his amazing bottle of whatever and the new edgy beard that he's a little bit full of shit? I think he's kind of supposed to be the guy who is uncomfortably trying to square off his social class with the newest of the new styles, and it's not at all unthinkable that his black girlfriend is another accessory.

i mean a lot of the relationships in this show seem to serve as accessories (lol salvatore + his woman :(), so no it's not unthinkable, but joan jumped to that conclusion as soon as she saw Paul's girlfriend basically, and a person is not the same as a neck kerchief.

Fair enough.

using only the most general jerk definition and not differentiating between jerks and asshole as elucidate by horseshoe upthread i present to you the mad men jerkladder

pete
bert
don
duck
roger
joan
ken
betty
paul
peggy
salvatore
harry

<3 i was about to try to do that.

i am sort of in love with harry for reasons that are unclear to me

Only ad people (Betty doesn't count):

Pete
Roger
Duck (fuck for the dog thing maybe he should be #1)
Bert
Paul
Ken
Don
Freddie
Joan
Salvatore
Harry
Peggy

i think jerk is pretty strong for most of these characters. flawed, certainly, but (aside from the secretary) we all have a pretty good understanding as to why they are the way are. but perhaps i'm thinking of the one-dimensional version of jerk.

I don't consider not wanting a baby to be evidence of jerkiness btw.

I'm not clear on why Pete is the way he is, either, though. Rich parents don't go nearly far enough to cover his rudeness, impertinence, complete lack of morals (worse than Don, I'd say), and general oily film.

at night pete rips off his human mask to reveal his terrifying insect visage

there is no accounting for him

as mentioned above the madmen jerkladder™ is constructed using a generally broad jerk definition

I'm also not sure Joan was mean to Paul's girlfriend because she was black. That was a moment of unnecessary meanesss though, I will concede.

i was unsure how to read that moment, to be honest, but it was at the very least...racially insensitive, bc she was basically like, "hey, i never knew Paul was open-minded" i.e, "hello, black girl; we're all white!"

its been pretty well demonstrated that pete parents are more than rich - some sort of barely human weirdos it seems

joan is srsly still mad at paul for whatever he did in season 0

Lady knows how to hold a grudge, for certain. Her campaign against Sterling is just beginning, seems like.

Yeah next episode will be interesting. Can't wait to see what Joan will do?

yeah her meanness to Paul is clearly about that, but i find that meanness charming. i am kind of a jerk.

Well Paul is kind of a jerk.

Paul vs. Ken was the hardest ranking.

o joan is mega charismatic and fun and i have no problem reveling in her zinginess - just to be clear

I think "Rich Parents" is a bit too simple from what we've seen of Pete's life. He seems to feel emasculated at every turn, and the rejection of Don leading him to Duck was a pretty important moment. This among countless other reasons.

Joan's response to Paul's girlfriend was mean, but she's been cracking all season. I think it was more along the lines of jealousy than anything else (He was madly in love with her and would be the kind of progressive boyfriend she would probably have wanted and she rejected him).

Paul is not progressive. He's just a pretender to progressiveness. He's the same kind of retrogade jerk as the rest of them.

guys pete is just fuuuuuuucked up. he has dad issues, clearly, but i don't think that accounts for how alarming he is.

paul and kens only real flat out aggression has been toward each other and paul started it so i ranked him ahead - theyre both pretty self indulgent and clueless

and yah pete is a sociopath who im sure sits atop nearly everyones internal mad men jerkladder

I think that is very likely, but I doubt Joan realizes that, the same way she probably doesn't realize what she's really looking for in life at the time.

Of course, I basically adore this show so much that I might be making excuses. I love the characters.

xxpost

pete is kind of a creepy sociopath, from what appears to be a family of creepy sociopaths.

xposts

agreed

re: joan, i don't think that she was even jealous of paul's girlfriend for being his girlfriend. she just strikes out at anything/anyone, like a child. she's very calculating, but in a pretty short-sighted way that's very teenaged.

otm. Witness the scene with her and her doctor, where she's just as little-girly as she can muster. She seems lost. (Um... like everyone on the show.)

her fiancee? I saw that as being her attempting to act like she thought she was supposed to, as though her finally settling down into the role she thought she was supposed to do was an ill-fit for her.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean!

calling pete a "sociopath" is stretching it a bit. he's merely a self-centered twerp, like almost everyone else on the show.

no, really. pete is scary. mark my words.

i would NOT be able to work in an office with pete as long as these people have.

on the other hand, it looks like don and the others get a lot of pleasure out of not letting him win, so it's a reason to stay!

re: Joan, and maybe re: why I don't think she's a jerk: She's an ill-fit for the world she's in no matter what she does. She's eked herself out a role as head hen of the office, which suits her well enough, but she's a long way from happy with it. She'd rather be reading scripts for the television department ("department"), for instance, and she knows she'd be a lot more "respectable" if she were married to a doctor, but she's not taken seriously by the men at the office, and certainly not by her husband, and in the latter situation, she seems to not even pay due respect to herself. I think "teenaged" is, given the environment, a bit of an accomplishment, since women in general are only expected to be little girls. She's impetuous and mean sometimes, yes, but she's way up in the top tier of likable characters.

this is true of all the women, though? i mean, she's smarter than some of the female characters, but i take it that this is one of the central things the show is about? it is moving.

oh, i love joan. i don't like her much, but she's one of my favorites.

she and betty are a lot alike, i think.

and yet i kind of can't stand betty.

they seem like the two sides of the coin, if you'll excuse my use of a terrible cliche.

At any rate, by now the implication that Betty is just a little girl should seem pretty sour.

yeah, i feel really bad for Betty and i don't know how she's ever going to fix all the stuff that sucks in her life, but i don't like her.

I think if you get hung up on liking any of these characters, you're not going to be rewarded. But that's okay, because they have more to say than that.

i do think that "sociopath" isn't that far off the mark with regard to pete. he has no regard for the others, to the point where he's surprised if they actually object to being mistreated or used; he has no idea what normal social interaction entails beyond this weird bluff heartiness that he's obviously practiced after seeing other people behave that way; he's manipulative as he can within the confines of his somewhat limited intelligence; he's shown a capacity for cruelty, etc etc.

Really I am kind of in awe of Matthew Weiner and the characters he has created.

yes, that is all very otm and i would not be surprised if he ends up killing someone or something.

xpost

yeah i guess it's because he's such a clueless putz that i don't see him as a "sociopath", but obviously being an incompetent sociopath doesn't negate being one.

Yeah – that episode where his father dies and he has no clue how to feel or how to react was the only time I ever felt any kind of sympathy for the guy.

Take away the constraints of time, and Pete would be the perfect guy to be beaten to death on the main street of Deadwood.

I see Pete more as Hearst actually (or Hearst's lackey.)

My moment of empathy for Pete was that episode where he nearly gets fired, but doesn't, but then at the end of the episode he goes home to his high-rise apartment with a view the upper east side of Manhattan, Chrysler Building and all, and you can see it through his eyes -- it's a trap. He built it himself, but even so.

xpost Wow, yeah, a lot like that.

How is Bert Cooper a jerk?

He fired someone for having gum in their mouth IIRC.

I think January Jones is doing a great job with depressive-Betty. All last season she was perfect on the outside, while you knew she was secretly tormented, and the last couple of episodes even that facade has broken away. Usually when TV does depression it's very one-note, but I think here it is conveyed not only in her clothing/carriage, but also subtly in her facial expressions and voice. Not over the top, but very believable, and such a change from the previous iteration of her character. It does a lot to bring Betty closer to a contemporary framework as well, I think--she seems somehow like a more immediate, relatible character, rather than a picture-perfect 60s housewife.

How is Bert Cooper a jerk?

well he's an ayn rand fan, to start. more generally he's an old-school elitist. (e.g. his rap to don about how a small group of people run the world.) even his eccentricities feel arrogant -- everyone has to take off their shoes to come pay their respects.

And his reason for buying a Rothko would have made the man open his veins a few years early.

(well, not really. That assumes Rothko didn't know that his art had become an investment -- he did. That's the doubly grim joke in the scene, really. Cooper is exactly what Rothko hated most in his life.)

is bert really an elitist? based on his response when he found out about don's secret, he believes in meritocracy.

Only as far as Ayn Rand would.

Point is, Rand + bansai trees = a garbled philosophy that can only come from great, clueless privilege.

yeah i guess old-school elitist is a bit unfair; he's just an elitist, period. he doesn't think aristocratic breeding is required (although he respects its prerogatives).

"telstar"!!! :-)

yeah that was awesome. over a great closing shot. good episode overall. the side story with betty's dad was the kind of detour that i really like in this series, something sort of prosaic you don't see coming that fills out the characters.

I think this episode made clear what a horrible human being Paul is and how super fucking awesome Joan is cuz like her I love to watch that fucker squirm.

Great thing about the scene on the bus is the unbelieveable "oh shit is it going to be firebombed" element and then it just ends where it begins with Paul spouting nonsense.

Is it wrong of me to think this show might be better than the Sopranos?

haha that bus scene was priceless

i think the show is more consistent that the Sopranos.

Is it wrong of me to think this show might be better than the Sopranos?

i thought the writing on the sopranos was weaker. plus, by the time it started airing, i was pretty sick of "the mob" as a character in entertainment. (i grew up in nyc and heard those stereotypes all my life.)

i was glad to see glenn and his mom again. wondered what happened to them.

haha that bus scene was priceless

Incredible baloney. "The market, and I'm talking in a purely Marxist sense, dictates that we must include everyone." I think you may need to brush up on your Marx, there, brah.

In a purely Marxist sense, the market depends on one social or economic group being exploited for the rest of it to live. Even in a non-Marxist sense, in 1962, black people were a shitty demographic. They didn't have any money. What the hell is he talking about?

Nonsense, but what else would Paul talk about?!?!

The Twilight Zone. Which I like about him.

Is it wrong of me to think this show might be better than the Sopranos?

― F*&@ OFF MATT KEMP! (Alex in SF), Monday, 6 October 2008 22:27 (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The further the show goes on, the more Sopranos-y it becomes (Don as Tony, Pete as Ralfie).

I like Pete as Ralfie. True 'nuff. And Pete as ur-hipster, which has no Sopranos analog. Lots of characters don't. (But I tried to put Pete into Deadwood a few days ago, so I understand the temptation to draw parallels between one excellent show and another.)

I assume you mean Paul as ur-hipster.

I think Pete is as Tony-esque as Don is actually.

Paul, yes, xpost, oops

drunk pete trying to get sympathy from disdainful peggy was cute. i like when pete tries to act in some serious grown-up way and just seems like more of a spoiled kid. (like when he reprimands his wife: "do i have to put my foot down?!")

what does putting one's foot down entail?

alex dont be jealous cause joan and paul dated. thats all over now and it didnt mean a thing anyway. really.

what does putting one's foot down entail?

The kind of donnybrook you don't want to witness!

so great

http://flickr.com/photos/nobodyssweetheart/2909385400/sizes/m/

HA! I love the way that even in the artist's rendering, you can tell he's talking a pile of shit.

reminds me of this snapshot of a print on the wall of a chic little bar that has since burned down (Joy Blue, for Chicagoans):

http://tittysprinkles.net/images/ilx/scuse-me-while-i-whip-this-out.jpg

very shag-like

Quite the idea. Before it burned down, it had a "reputation."

(Disclaimer: that picture, taken one of the two times I was ever in there, 9:00 on a Tuesday night. Before someone says "How would you know about its reputation?".)

so what's everyone's opinion of second season vs first? i'm only half way thru the second season so far but i'm finding it waaaay better

We're not much past you - episode 10 of season 2 was Sunday night. So I guess in a 12 or 13 episode season, that would put you three or four episodes behind? A night's work.

On s1 vs. s2, I'll quote myself from upthread: Season 1 is great, do not miss, but watching episodes again now, it feels almost like it's all setup. Season 2 has so far been *so* much heavier, denser, better.

yeah that's kind of the feeling that i've got, i was thinking abt going back and watching season 1 again but it seems like the first half of that season was all 'ok we're in the 50s, things are different, do you get it?'. of course that's over simplifying + it was way more than that, but still.

Even the second half of s2 is better than the first half

s1, I meant

I mean, the fist half of s1 is *really* all setup, and then it gets into power struggles and heart attacks and death and the implications of Don's cavalier thing, and s2 continues down the hole in that direction.

for real

gettin' freaky now.

the don-in-cali stuff i thought was good. the "i'm a homosexual" bit felt flat somehow. and poor peggy, her dates are all with priests and gay dudes.

the ending left me breathless.

and poor peggy, her dates are all with priests and gay dudes.

and pete campbell.

Wow they really amped up the plot quick this episode!

The boho eurotrash characters were the first bum note the show has struck for me this season. They felt way too central casting.

But Sal's wordless anguish in the scene where Kurt came out = brilliant

yeah the fact that Sal was there during that was lol + heartbreak

great episode

back on last week:

over a great closing shot.

"telstar" plus the sun slowly rising over don's face was genius

the glenn + betty stuff was just icky :/

the eurotrash felt so ethereal to me, like they were part of a hallucination or bad dream. something is definitely awry in the mind of don draper.

Yeah, they felt v v incongruous to me (which, ok, I accept was the point with Don leaving his baggage behind, going out west and getting rid of 'Don' etc) - the tone really reminded me of the Kevin Finnerty episodes of the Sopranos.

And actually, xp mention of Glenn and Betty last week had an icky counterpart in this episode, with Viscount Willie Le Creuset De Beaumarche (or whatever) sitting on Joy's bed and looking quite keen to jump in.

Don's tearing out of the last page of Joy's faulkner also tore me up (spesh when he HAD A NOTEBOOK RIGHT THERE!). Was it telegraphing a "he's a sociopath" vibe that he couldn't give a fuck about anyone else, or am I misreading that?

(also, Joy = teh hawtt.)

like they were part of a hallucination or bad dream

for real, I got a very David Lynch-y, Mulholland Drive California bad-dream vibe from everything at the villa

especially after Don collapsed and fainted I had my antenna up for any clues that it wasn't really happening and was all in his head possibly

yeah i was gonna say something about a cali fever dream. so the implausibility of it all didn't put me off, because it seems like the point is that it's this world totally unmoored and disconnected from don's experiences. which is its appeal. (well that plus the girl.) i had more problems with the coming-out scene, because that character seems like a cartoon too but in the more realist setting of sterling cooper it just seemed a little jarring.

scenes w/duck this episode were great. he's the underheralded storyline this season.

V true about euro hipster writer dude as cartoonish - especially the "lol girlfriend we gots to give you a makeov-ur!" direction it went. Like, him being gay = he's an expert hairdresser seemed like a leap Harry or Ken should make, but maybe not the story itself.

did u see peggys hair - not exactly an expert

who the fuck dick whitman call???

So I am assume person he called is person he sent the book to early in the season, no?

All I could think was that it might be the woman from the car dealership. Actually, I don't remember him sending a book.

I don't know anything about business-- Does anybody understand exactly what Duck's up to?

ducks trying to get his old firm to buy sterling cooper and get himself $$$ and a better position in the new company

did he say he wanted creative to answer to him - uh oh don v duck coming up

if he ever goes back! i thought maybe he was calling his bro?

Don's brother? He committed suicide.

Yes, Duck would become Don's boss. But is this kind of deal underhanded, or is it business as usual?

oohhh yeeaaa!

i think he was calling someone from his army days.

duck's deal is just bidness. i like that he only gets his mojo back when he starts drinking again.

ha yah as soon as he downed that drink he was all hay ive got a great idea!

there is absolutely a personal aspect to ducks deal as he fells kinda shit on my sterling cooper

also stems off of sterling telling him he'd never make partner I think

oh yeah it's personal. but he's not doing anything unethical. he's possibly setting up a nice buyout for the partners. could screw don, but it's not clear don particularly cares at this point...

he lied to sterling and cooper abt the genesis of the deal saying his old firm came to him - certainly unethical tho prob not a big deal

don will def snap out of his weird dream and come back to s/c fighting - i mean there wouldnt be a show otherwise right

Not one called Mad Men, I would think.

I feel like it might not happen this season. Could be the big cliffhanger.

odds on who will be first "mad man" regular to drop acid in season 4:

don: 5 to 2
paul: 6 to 1
peggy: 8 to 1
betty: 12 to 1
pete: 25 to 1
joan: 40 to 1
bertram cooper: 60 to 1

btw, in the current season, where are we in the calendar year? i've lost track. are we coming up on the missile crisis?

(well marilyn died in august '62, so yeah, i guess we'd be getting close)

I can see Peggy dropping acid.

Hey, I'm a couple episodes late in asking this but... what was that rule that Roger's very charming prostitute told him hadn't changed?

no kissing?

Well, is that a rule? You can tell me! Say you heard it from someone else.

so Joan's fiance is a shit.

also, did I miss something important, but what exactly is the history b/w Roger and the Cooper family? Bertram told Alice he "promised to take care of him"; was there some family connection I forgot about?

The Don stuff with the former Mrs. Draper was excellent, they seemed to have such a real and true friendship and bond. He isn't like that with anyone else.

I remember Bert saying in one episode that he had known Roger since Roger was a little boy, so I think he is at least a friend of the Sterling family.

peggy ftw in this episode. sort of poignant exchange there with joan, where joan kind of stops resenting her success and just accepts that peggy's moved above her.

the baptismal closing shot was ok but the gospel tune was lily-gilding. i like this anna character though. and the little scene with the hot-rodders was nice.

I don't think there's a family connection btw Bert and Roger but they're longtime friends & biz partners. also I think Bert said Alice had introduced Roger and Mona so Alice was pissed about Roger's divorce

the other eyebrow raiser was Alice's parting shot about Roger having more than one kid, did she just mean "the ones you'll have in the future with yr new 20-year-old wifey"?

god joan's going to marry that piece of shit isn't she. i don't know if i can watch this show it's too goddamn depressing.

no, Alice meant, you're marrying a child, you dirty old man.

i'm already fantasizing about joan taking dr. dickhead to the cleaners in a 1975 divorce. and then testifying to a pattern of spousal abuse 15 years later when he gets sued for sexual harassment.

i kind of want don to stay in cali as a west-coast spinoff. you can tell weiner likes all the narrative possibilities california gives him.

no, Alice meant, you're marrying a child, you dirty old man.

ah right. that makes sense

scene btw joan and the doctor in draper's office was hard to fucking watch, for sure

for sure, for sure.

i think it was bert and alice's mother who introduced roger and mona? in any case, i enjoyed meeting alice. are we to take it that her "companion" is more like her partner?

also liked (if that's the right word) betty's scenes with sally. the smoking thing was kind of hilarious, and then the "you're a big girl now. let me burden you with my adult problems" speech. and betty's rather vicious call to her old riding buddy reinforced for me how much she and joan are alike.

this episode was a motherfucker

the tension bewtween his california existence and everything back east leaves no doubt as to why don would want to never go home - but obv he cant out run himself

his life is suddenly full of possibilities - loved the hinted future job introducing hotrod culture to the world

betty is kind of a piece of work huh

"here's a gift for you honey"
"oh mommy! a pony!"
"oh btw me and daddy are fighting, he may never come back"

sad pull-back on bert all alone after they finalized the deal

Betty has always seemed really unsuited to parenting to me, unlike Don. it's too bad she's the one home with the kids all day

i enjoyed meeting alice. are we to take it that her "companion" is more like her partner?

That's what I thought.

xpost In a way that I can't put my finger on, Betty seems colder than Don. (This of course despite the fact that Don is a cheating motherfucker who's afraid of seemingly everything.)

love all the little details that fill in the power relationships and heirarchy

like Alice to Bert -- "lol, take my shoes off? bitch please"

ha totally that was awesome

"I don't ask much..."

her stockings cost more than his carpet!

that whole scene was set-up last week when duck asked roger for a raise and roger is breaking down how none of the partners support him and sd that alice, y'know, she just votes however bert tells her.

Betty has always seemed really unsuited to parenting to me, unlike Don.

yeah, that scene in which she lectures helen the divorcee about parental responsibilities was really all about herself. the kids are with carla or neighbors most of the time and are subject to betty's erratic, hot and cold style of mothering. that said, i don't think that don is particularly suited to parenting, either. he has an immense tenderness towards kids, based on his own damaged childhood, but that's not the same thing as being a good father.

Yes, if Don was really such a great parent I think he'd be less willing to completely abandon his children. He was ready to if Rachel had wanted to run away with him, and he may be ready to right now.

i guess it's hard to imagine don being good at any relationships, but maybe some version of him that confronts who he is? i guess you're right. i just find his scenes with his kids moving.

xpost yeah, that is true, too.

otm... don's warm when he's THERE, but.

i agree - there are some great moments involving don and the kids. and there's also the ep last season in which, after drinking all day, he disappears and thus sticks sally with that pathetic sarah lee cake for her birthday.

(and then shows up late at night with polly - "here. i ruined your party. have a dog")

yeah he sucked for that.

We haven't seen the dog since, have we?