TRUE or FALSE: The only topic it's socially acceptable for American men to know a great deal about is ... sports.

(NB this is not about what people actually DO know -- it's about what's considered normal and non-geeky to learn a ton about)

guns

although i guess knowing too much makes you seem a little nutty

Classic rock?

I don't know--I think formerly geeky amounts of knowledge about music or comics or whatever are becoming more acceptable in men born, say, after 1970 or so. Maybe it's growing up in the post-Star Wars era, maybe it's mass infantilization, maybe it's the net outing so many previously closeted nerds.

politics?

Mmmm...various frats?

I know fuckloads about sport, so much so I'm often considered a sports geek! Perhaps it's different in Britain; certainly, it doesn't help me that my predominant sport of choice, cricket, is seen as overtly statistical and, well, geeky. Football (soccer) is the common language here, although there are many who have divorced themselves entirely from it, relying upon academia, music, or other, less widespread specialist subjects with which to create conversation.

Picking up chicks?
Beers and other alcohols?

Of course, no subject is anywhere near sports. And *not* knowing a lot about sports remains socially crippling for men in most social or professional settings.

wine and whiskey, for sure

do you know anyone who knows a lot about sports who's like super-suave?

weed

Why is it no longer true of cars?

Motorcycles, maybe, might work. I am basing this on a class where 6 of the 10 students drove motorcycles and man, it was all they fucking talked about. And these dudes were DUDE-ICAL.

yes

xpost

yes, gabbneb

pie

I don't know about wine, it's got like the same effetteness that could be attributed to food.

Barbecue is an acceptable subset of food, I'd guess.

Badass movies like "Cool Hand Luke" and "Top Gun." (I am basing these all on my cousins.)

And *not* knowing a lot about sports remains socially crippling for men in most social or professional settings.

i think you meant to say "not knowing ANYTHING..." versus a lot, because most people male or female do not have in-depth knowledge of sports, just enough knowledge. i'd say this a fair enough point if you are talking about someone who knows utterly nothing about sports but the idea that people have to have significant knowledge over having a team they like and keeping up a bit is ridiculous.

adventuring?

you guys, another correct answer is pornography

OTM!

porn.

xposts

and pro wrestling, unless that already falls under the 'sports' header

Yeah, a lot of things I can think of could be considered sport, ie cage fighting, fishing, hunting...

Judo, kickboxing...

xxxpost

Depends what you mean by "significant knowledge." Enough to keep a reasonably detailed conversation going, since that's how men often communicate with other men they're just meeting or don't know well. But sure, you don't need like WFAN-level recall of minutia.

It's creepy when a guy knows every single porn woman & all the films they've been in and what film co. released them and their specific tricks (the women's or men's), who directed them, best torrents, etc...

you guys, another correct answer is pornography

I don't think you're supposed to know a GREAT DEAL about it. You're just supposed to jerk off now and again to it. Knowing a GREAT DEAL is kinda squicky, no?

xpost

jesus Abbott, have you run into dudes like that?

if you don't know anything about sports at all--like, you do not know team names, well-known player names, literally zilch--then yes, you will have a hard time communicating with men in those settings. if that kind of conversation counts as "reasonably detailed" then yes you are fucked!

Ha, I thought about porn, but that's secret knowledge -- you can't chat in an elevator about which porn stars you like.

Politics is the reason I put "blow-hardy" in the thread question: I think most people consider it admirable to know stuff about it when it's relevant, but if you actually go around talking about it, I'm betting lots of people will think you're a gas-bag know-it-all. (And if you're really passionate about various political points, they'll think you're humorless or a crackpot.)

I said I didn't think it counted with cars anymore because they're all advanced and computerized beyond ordinary people knowing about how they work, so you have lots of people who know lots about them, but it seems a little more niche now? It's definitely close, though, yeah, totally.

spend some time in pool halls and you will quickly realize it is still very, very true about cars. also sports of course, and in my experience, history of 20th century warfare is a bottomless well of trivial discussion, especially WWII. computers, as long as you stick to hardware and case modifications and not programming or web design, is unquestionably manly trivial knowledge.

WFAN-level recall of minutia

This is an example of "just enough knowledge" being dubious, because the only sport I know much about is baseball, and much of what I hear about it via sports radio (and its listeners) is WRONG. (Similarly with war, eg the Truman Hadda Drop the Bombs bullshit.)

I lack credibility as a fag in some circles because I don't watch porn.

Halo. Halo 2.

NOW THE INTERNET MAKES IT OK TO KNOW EVERYTHING U GUYS DIDNT HEAR

OH yeah, I've run into dudes like that. One was a coworker. When I first introduced myself to him (w/my real name of course, "Abbie"), he said, "Oh yeah, like Abby Winters" and proceeded to name some of his favorite girls from that site. An introduction to one of many further conversations...

hella xposts to gff

what the fuck, that's nuts. that is just five star creepy.

he said, "Oh yeah, like Abby Winters"

WTF?! HE SAID THAT TO YOU?

Judo, kickboxing...

http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/74/90/0000007490_20060920143725.jpg

(but if you want to admit an affinity for abby winters girls online, that's still ok, right?)

J. Justen for the win, people. VIDEO GAMES is huge, although there may be some generational divide going on.

big screen TVs

Yeah! Later the guy got fired for trying to beat up a customer, who was a cop. Guy had some problems.

xxpost

that a calculator in jello?

if not cars then maybe car stereos

My sports knowledge is in a bad place where (a) I can't pretend to total ignorance, because I do know the teams, how the seasons work, most of who's in playoffs/championships, and I'm usually aware of the dozen or so best-known players in the NBA / NFL / MLB, but (b) that knowledge, and my level of caring about it, is not enough to really have or follow a conversation about any of it. A lot of my sports conversations involve me going "isn't that team supposed to suck?" and someone else saying "no, that was five years ago, they made the playoffs last year!"

I want to either know nothing or enough to be functional, damnit.

xpost Ha, I feel so PURE and AWESOME not knowing who Abby Winters is.

Video games is OTM, yes!

But NOTE this is most true w/r/t VIDEO GAMES ABOUT SPORTS

The canon of The Three Stooges.

I think whether you do know or are expected to know much about cars is sort of regionally or socioeconomically determined. I don't know anything about cars, and I'm not sure I have any male friends who do, either. Or at least they don't talk about them. But I can certainly imagine within some communities it being a larger topic of conversation.

most of what i know about cars comes from gran turismo!!

"oh yeah, the suspension on [outlandish euro boutique supercar from five years ago] was complete bullshit."

Clint Eastwood
Burt Reynolds
Steve McQueen

Nabisco you have a seperate window open right now GISing her name, admit!

Jesus, I know SO many people who will fiercely debate the merits of Chevy v. Ford trucks for like hours. Mostly men, some women too. But they're the kind of people who will fight about best cowboy boot brands and Lees v. Wranglers too. Yeah, a pretty specific subculture.

"separate", sorry

What about simple machines? Bikes spring to mind...

although for some entirely cryptic, baffling straight-boy reason, it is apparently totally socially acceptable for dudes to talk about how buff & ripped those spartans were in 300.

bikes are just tiny gay cars.

without motors.

xxpost
well,they were pretty buff

dan, dude, bikes are NOT universally acceptable, what are you even talking about, faggot

Athletic Shoes

(the joke being that dan got yelled at on his bike the other day for being a faggot.)

Also I don't understand why learned skills can't be counted, it's not like we're born knowing what "first down" or "offsides" means.

BBQing/grilling out has become especially phallocratic in recent years, I feel. There's not THAT much shop to talk about it, but the gear has become more elaborate, qualified and even warrior-like.

BOOBZ

yeah, i think if you know how to build a deck, that pretty universally acceptable, if not awfully interesting. But then again, sports aren't that awfully interesting to me. But I don't look down my nose at people who know a lot about sports.

don't know much about the NFC
don't know much about the AFC
don't know much about the NFL
do know much about how tight ends smell
but I do know better than to image-search porn stars at work

xpost "what offsides means" = information, not a skill

I don't know--I think formerly geeky amounts of knowledge about music or comics or whatever are becoming more acceptable in men born, say, after 1970 or so. Maybe it's growing up in the post-Star Wars era, maybe it's mass infantilization, maybe it's the net outing so many previously closeted nerds.

-- Martin Van Burne, Friday, August 3, 2007 9:04 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

it's weird nowadays being a genuine nerd because the word "nerd" has lost its meaning. you hear regular people saying shit like "oh i watch heroes every week, i'm such a nerd". no you're not, stop appropriating my culture. generations of misfits spent years indoors reading comics and sci-fi novels so when they got out into the world they could create those "geeky" pleasures you so casually enjoy. fucking posers.

WAIT NO THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO SAY DON'T KNOW ABOUT TIGHT ENDS
CRAP

Knowing about TRUCKS and LIFT KITS and CHEWERS &c. is very socially acceptable out here.

hahaha nabisco smells butts

I'm a beagle, I thought that was common knowledge.

wahts a chewers

MUDDERS

THIS SUMMER, NABISCO IS. . .
http://www.gotpetsonline.com/pictures-gallery/dog-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/beagle-pictures-breeders-puppies-rescue/pictures/beagle-0036.jpg

ONE SMART BEAGLE

aw cuet

LOLOLOL

dan m is correct

"I'm not sure whether or not I should pull Eric Moulds off the waiver wire. He's got great hands and gets more catches (per percentage) than anyone, but with the way Houston looks this season, I might be better off going for someone who might actually get into the end zone."

"I'm not sure whether or not I should switch to being a warlock. They have great stamina and destruction points (per dice roll) than anyone, but with their smaller stature and low spell-power, I might be better off going for someone who might actually win a duel on more than just dumb luck."

One of those were geeky, the other one isn't.

TS: Suspension lift v. Body lift

ps Dan i met a yooper this week!

oh i dunno, i think WoW is close to being acceptable (if that's what that warlock stuff is about)

Trucks, lift kits, "chewers" -- socially acceptable A LITTLE, but do people seriously have the level of trivia and history knowledge about this you're allowed to have with sports? I mean, people know a lot about sports. Is it really normal to sit in a bar and advance lengthy opinions comparing the fine points of different bed-support systems and their various paths since 1964?

besides the whole masculine bit, i wonder if part of the social acceptability of being knowledgeable about sports/cars is that you can problem solve with it. do a bit of monday morning quarterbacking, talk a bit about how someone should fix/mod up their truck, etc., while knowing about comic books and music and stuff is more trivia

xp - i mean i guess there's a historical component lacking in modding up yr truck, but yeah, dudes will go on at LENGTH about the finer points of suspension systems

yes

Also snow machines, dirt bikes, chainsaws, whatever.

Is it socially acceptable to know a great deal about the Simpsons? Or have I been very sheltered?

also, i would suggest (somewhat myopically), that it's socially acceptable to talk shop about outdoorsy stuff (but maybe that just falls under Sport)

What about stuff you'd learn in Boy Scouts? Building fires, hiking, tracking, etc? Too much learned skill, I suppose.

xp what rw said 2

There are not near as many other dudely metaphors of any kind compared to sports metaphors.

Yeah, River, the problem-solving was part of why I was excluding construction and repair -- they're things you learn about for the purpose of doing, as opposed to things you learn for no practical or professional reason, just knowledge acquired out of interest.

I think a lot of the knowledge-about-machines falls into the middle area of those things -- partly followed out of sheer interest, but interest in a thing you also relate to practically

Would JFK conspiracy theories count?

"I can't believe no one has said Musical Theater!"

I was never in the boy scouts, couldn't build a fire to save my life, know dick-all about sports... but I have a snake.

It sometimes seems like a stand-in for politics/current events, but where the elements are all cozily defined and encompassed and one can be more sure of the ground one stands upon.

I'm curious what "socially acceptable" means in this thread. Mostly, I guess I'm wondering socially acceptable to whom? Is the standard whether some jock/fratboy/redneck will judge you or not? (And why should it be?)

I know pretty much zero about cars or tools or gadgets or mechanics, but I don't feel like this ever gets me into trouble. Granted, I'm rarely straying from my urban subculture, but still.

Sports
Guns
Cars (as long as you're not driving a VW Cabrio or something)
Fixing Shit/Carpentry/Plumbing/etc.

WoW is NOT socially acceptable, give me a break.

The thesis statement is compeltely batshit; in my experience, men are expected to be able to converse on the following topics besides sports:

politics
cars
hot women
home improvement/DIY
alcohol/drinking
dick size

while knowing about comic books and music and stuff is more trivia

I think this is a good distinction to make. Maybe the thread might be better rephrased in terms of what kind of trivia is it socially acceptable to go around reciting?

it's weird nowadays being a genuine nerd because the word "nerd" has lost its meaning. you hear regular people saying shit like "oh i watch heroes every week, i'm such a nerd". no you're not, stop appropriating my culture. generations of misfits spent years indoors reading comics and sci-fi novels so when they got out into the world they could create those "geeky" pleasures you so casually enjoy. fucking posers.

is awesome

o yah, booze

Politics - it's a bonus if you know some shit, but nobody wants to discuss it when you're not reasonably close friends or acquaintances. Or maybe I just avoid it because I get all "Morbs vs. Joe Morgan" when people defend Dubya.

what about action movies?

fireworks

this seems to be boiling down to "topics I could discuss with my dad's friends" - working/middle-class middle-aged guys who know each other primarily from fantasy football or were drinking buddies from before I was born.

Dan, we're not talking about conversing, we're talking about things you can know a really serious amount about without its seeming notable! There's a surprising number of guys whose accumulated sports knowledge is like the equivalent of a master's degree.

politics = the average American man could very easily name more current athletes, and say more about who they are and what he thinks of them, than he could with senators, presidential candidates, world leaders...
cars = yes, this one is close, but I still suspect on a downturn
hot women = this is a broad subject category, and gets funny depending on how you interpret "know a lot about," but yes
home improvement/DIY = yes, as discussed, though this isn't pure interested information-gathering, it's just as much skill-learning (cf no one would call an old-school homemaker a total cleaning-the-house geek)
alcohol/drinking = yes
dick size = in the sense that 1960s children hiding under desks knew a lot about nuclear war, yes

LOL

This thread is having the effect of making me feel very alienated from my XY brethren.

I was just going to say, men don't look at dicks unless they're gay or they're watching porn, and porn is like comparing your height with the NBA.

jay we could go muddin' sometime, I know people.

we're talking about things you can know a really serious amount about without its seeming notable!

I came in 'real late' but there's a large gap between "socially acceptable" and "seeming notable."

Being a scholar on menstruation in ancient art might be seen as odd, but nobody's going to blink twice if you can swap out carburetors.

I don't even know what that means, Dan!

YOU ARE LESS OF A MAN THEN

j/k

Milo I would hope it's clear that no one is suggesting that knowing a whole lot about the Renaissance is going to get you kicked out of restaurants as a taboo-breaker.

But if you know a lot about a given topic (apart from your profession) and you talk about it openly enough for people to notice that, you may well be perceived as (depending on the thing) mildly dorky, pedantic, quirky, geeky, eccentric, snobbish, Cliff Claven-y, bookish, fancy, elitist, full of hot air, or whatever else.

Sports would still appear to be the #1 exception to this. Then there are cars, video games, military history ...

what about the weather?

or medical knowledge? (if you are not actually a medical practitioner)

you talk about it openly enough for people to notice that, you may well be perceived as (depending on the thing) mildly dorky, pedantic, quirky, geeky, eccentric, snobbish, Cliff Claven-y, bookish, fancy, elitist, full of hot air, or whatever else.

Right - but that isn't the 'accidental knowledge' you alluded to, and pretty much all of Dan's categories work.

Too much medical knowledge and you become a weirdo hypochondriac (even if you're right)

Or kind of a creep, or geek, or both.

Would horror films count?

if the question is "which topics are American men EXPECTED to know about" then yes, sports is pretty much it

no!

xpost

Television, definitely. Though again, that might be a generational gap thing.

RONG

Video games, but it's totally a generation gap thing. our parents are still leery/freaked out by them(c.f. Hillary/JoeLieb's political efforts against them), but even the bros & jocks one encounters at school have all played xbox/NES/et al, and the numbers will only go up.

Something that strikes me about the cars/hardware/DIY aspect is that guys traditionally gain self-esteem thru competency, so it's worthy to talk about "practical" shit you're good at.

i gather that there is not much social pressure for young people to get a college degree in southern america?

home infrastructure, like wiring, plumbing etc
SPEAKERS
guitars

there is, Heave Ho, but the want them to go to fake religious colleges like Regent and Liberty.

I agree with the central thesis of this thread, BUT:

even the bros & jocks one encounters at school have all played xbox/NES/et al, and the numbers will only go up.

is completely correct in my experience, and I suspect that within 20-30 years VGs & sports will be on pretty equal ground within dude culture.

whiskey and cigars

i gather that there is not much social pressure for young people to get a college degree in southern america?

waht

Is it important to make a distinction between topics that would make you "uncool"/ostracized/that weird guy/whatever vs. topics that would make you intimidating?

Comics vs. Politics
Pop Music vs. "Literature"
etc

The fact that I failed to come up with booze earlier in this thread fills me with shame.

POSER

Seriously though, maybe it's a MA thing but I know many a straight guy willing to throw down on the comedy subject of how massive his dick is. I'm actually surprised I haven't seen charts and graphs.

you're all crazy

I! Am! Good!

there's still no section of the newspaper devoted to porn or video games

there's still no section of the newspaper devoted to porn or video games

video game reviews as a section in my paper would make me feel like buying video games. Porn reviews would make me feel like I bought the wrong paper by accident. Such is American morality. :(

Portland local papers(both daily and alt-weekly) now run regular game reviews

While it might be "non-geeky" to know a lot about sports (isn't that sort of true by definition -- jock vs. geek?) I wouldn't necessarily say it was any more "normal" than knowing any other topic in excruciating detail.

I know many a straight guy willing to throw down on the comedy subject of how massive his dick is.

apologies in advance, but is this a "black thing"?

Good job, Kenan.

You are a beacon.

i'm just asking!

notice I was ashamed of the question when I asked it

Not ashamed enough not to ask it, I see.

wtf

Blockbuster Hollywood movies I think has a chance here.

HAVE

blackbuster.jpeg

I'd have to say, knowing a lot about sports is also seen as being really geeky. Say, baseball nerds arguing about statistics and football dorks endlessly analyzing and droning on about their fantasy teams.

Typically anything is "geeky" if you focus obsessively on it. It's different than, say, having a passing knowledge of German literature - if you can answer a question on even the most casual etymology of a German word, maaaan, that'll get you a "nerd" epithet or two.

blackbuster.jpeg

-- BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 5 August 2007 01:07 (4 hours ago)

racistironylarflarf.gif

wait, I misspelled STFU.gif.

I get along with my dad's friends and uncles by talking cars, home theater, boating (and boat repair), fishing, places to go on boats and biking. Also I occasionally let a drinking/womanizing story slip out when we're drinking because they love to live vicariously through me. I think part of them is glad that my generation is being allowed to extend their wild days 10 years longer than they were allowed to.

Also we talk about investing

Magic: The Gathering. Amirite?

BOATING: Christ, yes.

Basically, any topic that makes you appear rich and/or virile is good to go.

Something that strikes me about the cars/hardware/DIY aspect is that guys traditionally gain self-esteem thru competency, so it's worthy to talk about "practical" shit you're good at.

-- kingfish, Friday, 3 August 2007 23:20 (2 days ago) Link

this is really u+k - guys are obsessed with figuring out how things work, some moreso than others, and are usually delighted to talk about any of it at length.

the thing abt sports is that it really ISN'T that socially acceptable to be a super knowledgable sports geek? what i've noticed since getting into SPLORTS more recently - you couldn't have paid me to sit through any kind of game 4-5 years ago - is that where i started to pay attn just so i could kind of have that sports-as-social-glue thing going on, is that most dudes don't really care that much and that a lot of the obsessive types have their own anxieties about being a little TOO into it like i did when i was into comic books or whatever in my teens. i think the fact that it is kind of expected for guys to be able to converse abt sports in some cursory fashion makes it easier for the obsessives to sneak by without being judged so much, but any time you introduce an excess amount of knowledgability about ANYTHING into convos w/mixed company, you are probably going to turn ppl off unless they really share your interest. i think not having an interest at all, as you do, kind of blows up your self-conciousness about not fitting in and makes you see it as something that is more universally embraced than it really is?

i mean obviously it still fits along that continuum of Things It's Okay To Display Interest In (cars, bbq, hot babez, gaybashing)

We talk a lot about gas mileage of big boats.

Also we talk about investing

I think investing is imminently acceptable. Even among those who don't have an interest/knowledge in it(which includes many investors obv.) it's looked at as esoteric and essential rather than esoteric and trivial, not that they want to get bogged down in the details during casual conversation.

sure it may tag you as 'stuffed shirt'/'yuppie douchebag' but that's more about how you bring it up and how it seems to work into your 'identity' (see: bros who quote boiler room and wall street without irony)

I can talk sports all day long with co-workers, friends, fathers, uncles at weddings.... It's got to be a lot like when English speakers "move" their brains over to a different language ("no schwa sound, no schwa sound"). I feel like I'm speaking in tongues.

I kind of savor pulling the sports card when you are/were the nerdy geeky type.

The Chief IT guy at my new job is a former college baseball player, so sometimes that can backfire the other way.

I'd also add "Golf", and separate it from the "sports" groups. With sports, it's something you watch and follow and make up fantasy teams/trades for. with golf, it's something you actually do, visit different places to play, build your own clubs and pick your own brands, etc.

While there's the watching component of golf(knowing the players, etc), i think there's enough personal, physical involvement to warrant distinction.

"that would be considered geeky, snobbish, blow-hardy, or eccentric if applied to just about any other topic."

OTM

"(a) this is no longer really true about cars"

Also OTM.

Nabisco is right as usual, et al.

"I get along with my dad's friends and uncles by talking cars, home theater, boating (and boat repair), fishing, places to go on boats and biking."

i just nod my head a lot and act like i'm really interested in what they are saying. men love that.

On a related note, Jerry Rice called in to Adam Carolla's radio show to promote the new 2K Games Football game, which kind of mashes together several different things we've talked about on this thread.