Art in quotes cos it could be music or film or art or literature or whatever. Just from reading the "Threads" thread and "The Drift" thread I was wondering what the most unremittingly bleak piece of art Ilxor had ever come across was. Also wondering whether it's possible to convey in art certain events. I think Cormac Macarthy's Blood Meridian maybe the most unremmitingly grim thing I've read but even that had moments of catharsis and release. Someone I asked this question to mentioned "Dance In The Dark" which I haven't seen. Documentaries and reportage probably don't count, but they might if you want them to. Also to what extent do things that try to be Unremittingly Grim unwittingly fall into grotesque or comic?
― acrobat, Monday, 6 August 2007 12:27 (eighteen years ago)
Comedy answer:
Shed Seven album dot jpeg
― acrobat, Monday, 6 August 2007 12:28 (eighteen years ago)
Songs from the Second Floor is the first movie to come to mind. It's great movie because even though it offers a very grim world view and no catharsis, the very poignant though often absurdist social satire makes it all bearable. Then there are those unremittingly grim movies, like Lilya Forever, which don't seem to have anything else to say than "the world is shitty, mmkay".
― Tuomas, Monday, 6 August 2007 13:01 (eighteen years ago)
I didn't find Dancer in the Dark "unremittingly grim", but that's because it felt like nothing but a two hours of emotional sadism (with a nasty streak of sexism) on part of von Trier, so it was kinda hard to take the grimness seriously.
― Tuomas, Monday, 6 August 2007 13:05 (eighteen years ago)
The novels of David Peace
― That mong guy that's shit, Monday, 6 August 2007 13:12 (eighteen years ago)
I think Peace openly opposes all humour, which makes it a bit strange that he did a joint show with Haines.
― That mong guy that's shit, Monday, 6 August 2007 13:14 (eighteen years ago)
The graphic novel "Epileptic" by David B. Stunning artwork, incredibly moving, but so sad. Had me in tears.
― Trayce, Monday, 6 August 2007 13:14 (eighteen years ago)
Tho perhaps I am missing the point.
― Trayce, Monday, 6 August 2007 13:15 (eighteen years ago)
mary ellen mark:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1413/1028909842_27597fbc80_o.jpg
― Rubyredd, Monday, 6 August 2007 13:34 (eighteen years ago)
Tuomas, I think that the satire in Songs from the Second Floor does take it away from being a perfect answer. It can be pretty funny in parts. Most of my watching/reading is pretty grim, but I cannot think of anything that would truly work in this way - there is either catharsis or absurdity or grotesquery. I shall have to think harder.
Oh, and isn't Lilya Forever the one with the AWFUL ending, where they become angels and frolic about? Man, that was shite.
― emil.y, Monday, 6 August 2007 13:37 (eighteen years ago)
Yup, that's the one.
My point was exactly that the art which simply aims for bleakness without any balancing forces isn't often good, because bleakness on top of bleakness often becomes boring, which makes you care less about it. That's why SftSF is a better, and in my opinion more affecting, film than DitD, even though it's funnier.
Another example of "good" bleakness: Michael Haneke's The Piano Teacher. Cache and Funny Games are pretty bleak too, but they're maybe to intellectual to really punch you in the gut.
― Tuomas, Monday, 6 August 2007 13:45 (eighteen years ago)
Well, I read Lilya as having a sort-of-happy ending, its bleakness about the world just turned into a pseudo-spiritual 'we can be happy in death' message, which can't count as unremittingly grim. If you're going to postulate about what happens after death in an unremittingly grim piece of art, it's going to be hellish. To be honest, I think unremittingly grim art has to suggest that one must continue living forever, otherwise there's always the element of escapism.
Do agree with you on Haneke, particularly The Piano Teacher.
― emil.y, Monday, 6 August 2007 13:51 (eighteen years ago)
http://ublib.buffalo.edu/lml/comics/pages/images/contractPANEL.jpg
― aldo, Monday, 6 August 2007 14:01 (eighteen years ago)
sort of disagree. i think a stupid and pointless death with no redemption just a waste, is pretty grim. something like the end of the trial by kafka where they just kill the guy and you've read the whole book and then bang he's gone and it all seems so mean and futile. or 1984 or brazil, i mean they aren't unremitting but those sort of little man destroyed by unfeeling system narratives i fin really grim because you can sort of see it all building up. at the end of blood meridian the main protagonist is brutally killed (actually looking at the wiki suggests other interpretations) and the symbol of evil in the world is revealed to be pretty much imortal. that i find totally grim the idea that only evil seems to survive.
― acrobat, Monday, 6 August 2007 14:04 (eighteen years ago)
Hm, well, in Brazil, certainly, there is the fact that while alive he has the possibility of escape, so death there can work as a brutal reminder that you can't escape. The same thing goes for 1984. Resistance is futile.
So, yeah, you're right, death can work that way. I guess it depends on how the world of the story and the characters within it are portrayed. If they have fight in them, then death is the put-down. If they're trapped anyway, then life is the ultimate punishment.
― emil.y, Monday, 6 August 2007 14:20 (eighteen years ago)
Mike Leigh's Naked was pretty unremitting.
― Hurting 2, Monday, 6 August 2007 14:23 (eighteen years ago)
naw, that's practically a sitcom
― sexyDancer, Monday, 6 August 2007 14:26 (eighteen years ago)
couple of odd things that struck me as almost unremittingly grim:
* 300 - hello i am watching a film that is happily arguing the "virtues" of facism. of course i imagine "unremittingly grim" wasn't what the people making it were going for but because everything about it sort of seemed to me to be an advert for an incredibly bleak world view it felt that way to me. * this sort of documentary / comedy about the death of bernard manning. vile man lives, spreads vile message, dies unrepentant.
the idea of this thread came watching the news a while back about genocide in, i think, sudan and wondering could art in anyway depict that kind of senseless horror.
― acrobat, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:27 (eighteen years ago)
bergman to thread
― Edward III, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:28 (eighteen years ago)
swans to thread
― Edward III, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:29 (eighteen years ago)
and i'm reminded by an ilx threrad about extreme movies. the worst were apprarently ones which just re-enacted concentration camp experiments, no one on those threads, seemed to able to find any worth in them at all.
― acrobat, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:30 (eighteen years ago)
Come with me, come to the land of batshit rightwing cartoonists
― kenan, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:31 (eighteen years ago)
oh god yes: 'lilya forever', one of the worst films ever made. 'hole in my heart' was really bad too, and maybe bleak? i can't remember, fortunately.
― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:33 (eighteen years ago)
threads to thread
― Edward III, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:34 (eighteen years ago)
http://www.junkiesfan.com/images/cover_untamedheart.jpg
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:35 (eighteen years ago)
Monkey Dust veers from light(ish) comedy to absurdly bleak satire in the blink of an eye; this contrast makes the depressing bits all the more so.
― Just got offed, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/151/501287~Just-Married-Posters.jpg
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:37 (eighteen years ago)
10,000 kitchen sink dramas to thread
― Edward III, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:37 (eighteen years ago)
I mean, the Divorced Dad falling past the window in a Spiderman outfit is the most pathos-ridden piece of television OR film I've ever seen, and that's BEFORE his 'son' starts saying "Daddy? Daddy? Where have you gone? I like Spiderman really!"
― Just got offed, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:38 (eighteen years ago)
hmm but it's kind of funny thou, innit. at least i remember it sort of encouraged you to not entirely relate to the situation, it was far to grotesque and comic to be real. though sometimes comedy makes things worse cos sometimes you then get another layer of sort of contempot for the protagonists.
scott you were one of the dudes on the extreme movie thread, i think. and you didn't care for the really nasty ones much.
― acrobat, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:42 (eighteen years ago)
i have an infinite capacity for horror movies. even bleak ugly ones sometimes. but the two hour torturefests? nah. i need something more to look at. it's kinda torture in a tedious way to watch those kinds of movies. i mean i get the point in an extreme metal kinda way. who can outdepress, outbleak, outhorrify, etc. but forensics grows tiresome.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:48 (eighteen years ago)
Huh. From some of these last few suggestions, I'm guessing I have different standards of what it means to be 'unremmitingly grim' than most people.
― emil.y, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:55 (eighteen years ago)
Films: "The Pawnbroker" (scalding Holocaust survivor as inner city parasite drama), "The Plastic People" (drab and painful Polish realist examination of a miserable marriage complete with seemingly endless crying-baby-enhanced screaming couple fights), "Wolf Creek" (long torture n rape sequences)
Literature: late Beckett prose works such as "How It Is", Thomas Hardy novels, Webster's tragedies
Non-Fiction: Rwandan genocide documents, "The Sexual Criminal" (reprint of forensic collection of interviews with convicted psychopaths complete with crime scene photos and wretched personal bios)
― Drew Daniel, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:56 (eighteen years ago)
drew, did you ever see the original dahmer biopic that came out in the early 90's? extremely no-budget grimness shot like gay porn:
http://filmotecagpuc.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/the-secret-life-of-jeffrey-dahmer.jpg
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 15:59 (eighteen years ago)
bergman's movies are certainly not "unremitting" in their bleaknesses!
― Tracer Hand, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:06 (eighteen years ago)
yeah plus they are usually really beautiful to look at.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:09 (eighteen years ago)
Drew, does The Plastic People have any relation to the Plastic People of the Universe? They're not Polish, but Czech, so close by.
― emil.y, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:13 (eighteen years ago)
did anyone ever see that movie about the german homosexual internet cannibal? That looks pretty unremittingly grim.
Maybe john justen and fluffy bear... nah, maybe not.
― kenan, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:24 (eighteen years ago)
that movie looks good!
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:28 (eighteen years ago)
it kinda does, yeah. Keri Russell? Huh.
― kenan, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:35 (eighteen years ago)
this is the kinda stuff i was talking about:
http://www.dvdmaniacs.net/Reviews/A-D/avon_dynasty_costello.html
http://www.dvdmaniacs.net/Reviews/E-H/guineapig3.html
http://www.dvdmaniacs.net//Reviews/A-D/august_underground_mordum.html
WARNING: UNREMITTINGLY GRIM AND BLEAK LINKS WITH NUDITY!
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:37 (eighteen years ago)
god almighty
― kenan, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:44 (eighteen years ago)
definitely one of the grimmest books i've ever read:
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/images/n25/n126289.jpg
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:52 (eighteen years ago)
and it's totally "art" too! completely uncompromising.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:53 (eighteen years ago)
passion of the christ was grim. only time i've heard the announcer say 'contains extended scenes of scourging' before the second half.
i also remember war of the roses as being full of bile.
― koogs, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)
that reminds me... Last Exit to Brooklyn is one of the darkest movies I can think of.
― kenan, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:57 (eighteen years ago)
war of the roses is hilarious
― kenan, Monday, 6 August 2007 16:58 (eighteen years ago)
M ordum was shot on digital video in Pittsburgh, PA
i wonder if any of the punks and freaks i used to hang out with in high school know these guys (i wouldn't be surprised). there is not much to do in that part of the country & it's so culturally conservative that some of the underground stuff is just about being as gross and offensive as possible
speaking of which, i just remembered a kid i grew up with owned a few joe christ movies which def. fit the description. they're terrible
also gaspar noe to thread
― daria-g, Monday, 6 August 2007 17:00 (eighteen years ago)
dennis cooper - closer
― Tracer Hand, Monday, 6 August 2007 17:03 (eighteen years ago)
"there is not much to do in that part of the country & it's so culturally conservative that some of the underground stuff is just about being as gross and offensive as possible"
hello george romero!
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)
it doesn't take much to bum me out these days though. About Schmidt bummed me out last night! maria too. and the night before that we got bummed out watching some sad woman movie with glenn close and cameron diaz and holly hunter as sad women. i don't need much bleaker than that.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 17:16 (eighteen years ago)
have you guys all seen the lsd hotdog scare film from the 60's?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3pRVQVmFHg
it features a really grim troll doll.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)
Jim Goldberg's photography book Rich and Poor.
And even though it's already been mentioned in the first post, having watched Threads again last night, I'd have to put that up there.
And quite a few Joyce Carol Oates short stories.
― Eazy, Monday, 6 August 2007 17:22 (eighteen years ago)
you know what cheered maria & i up after About Schmidt was that Supertramputee video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNFW_hNkfi4
that and that band Complete on youtube that are so much fun:
Complete: this band is amazing
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 17:24 (eighteen years ago)
sorry, i'm all out of bleakness :(
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 17:25 (eighteen years ago)
The first film that sprang to mind, though I haven't seen it, is Tim Roth's The War Zone. I thought it looked pointlessly, exploitatively grim, but Tim Roth annoys me so that's probably just my prejudice talking.
― Alba, Monday, 6 August 2007 17:41 (eighteen years ago)
Review: Ildjarn forges songs around looping structures embedding melody in minimized and noisy riffs within droning entropy shaping rebirth and joyful nihilism. Influenced equally by Profanatica and drone techno, this band slice out instants of resonance in melody and internal harmony causing multiple themes to be encoded simultaneously within one clattering hypnotic beat cycle. Thoughtful yet adeptly perverse and savage in everything from sense of harmony to physical violence in playing, this music aims to be more extreme than black metal can now tolerate. A distorted flight of incoherent vocals keeps time to the evolution of these striking but sublime melodies. Like a vision of Ragnarok, this music shows a positivity in total negative space.
Production: This was recorded in the Norsk forests of a college dorm room using a four track machine underneath electric lines. 1. Whispering Breeze 2. Blackened Might 3. Clashing of Swords 4. No Gleaming Light 5. Blazing Eye 6. Sinking Deep 7. Chill of the Night (Returning) 8. The Blade Flares in Red Light 9. Deepening in Grey 10. Midnight Interval 11. Descending 12. Away with the Dawn 13. Before my Eyes Forever 14. Reflecting Mountains 15. Brother of the Forest 16. Dead Years 17. Dark December 18. Untitled 1 19. Cold And Waste 20. Visions of the Earth (2nd Returning) 21. Risen Seeds of Time 22. Untitled II 23. Untitled III 24. Winter Embrace 25. Untitled IV 26. No Place Nowhere 27. Entering/Descending 28. Deepening in Grey 29. Away With The Dawn 30. Brother Of The Forest 31. Der Moerkner (Darkening) 32. Arter En Gang (Once Again) 33. Skogssvinet (Beast Of The Woods) 34. Taakekein (Home Of Mist)/ Leaving
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 17:50 (eighteen years ago)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0e/Man_Bites_Dog_film.jpg/200px-Man_Bites_Dog_film.jpg
― Elvis Telecom, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:06 (eighteen years ago)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d9/Spoorloos.jpg
― Elvis Telecom, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:09 (eighteen years ago)
Thomas Hardy OTM....except it's a paradox since a world with Thomas Hardy novels can't be that bad....
― ryan, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:12 (eighteen years ago)
man bites dog is also hilarious.
― kenan, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:13 (eighteen years ago)
how about pop / rock music? i have not listened too much to "closer" by joy division but that has a reputation for being as unremitting as pop gets. though of course that has the story surrounding it, "metal box" seems pretty grim as well but that doesn't have the narrative. the manic street preacher's "holy bible" is sort of a checklist of grim genocide, execution, suicide, anorexia, the holocaust but is likely to get laffed out the room on ilx, but smarter people than me have repped for it.
― acrobat, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:16 (eighteen years ago)
Lou Reed - Berlin
― kenan, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:17 (eighteen years ago)
"the human condition" - 10 hour long japanese epic film about world war II. last 3-4 hours or so is the protaganist wandering lost in the snows of manchuria, delirious, saying the name of his wife over and over again. good stuff.
― hstencil, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:25 (eighteen years ago)
xpost: For me, the really bleak thing about 'Man Bites Dog' is that it's meant to be funny. I don't often want the 90 minutes of my life back from a movie, but that one did it. Lars Von Trier and Mike Leigh have both defeated me, but at least I have some respect for what they are trying to achieve.
As for music, I dunno, as bleak as it gets, it's still always going to be cathartic for someone.
― Soukesian, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:28 (eighteen years ago)
. . and Bela Tarr has a new film out, if you're looking for some GOOD bleakness!
― Soukesian, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:31 (eighteen years ago)
"the human condition" - 10 hour long japanese epic film about world war II. last 3-4 hours or so is the protaganist wandering lost in the snows of manchuria, delirious, saying the name of his wife over and over again. good stuff."
want to see!
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:33 (eighteen years ago)
scott, there were three dvds made of it, but they're oop and hella expensive. ;_;
― hstencil, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:35 (eighteen years ago)
Bully that French movie where Monica Bellucci is raped and then her husband kills the wrong guy aka Morbs' Favorite Movie
― milo z, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:39 (eighteen years ago)
the really bleak thing about 'Man Bites Dog' is that it's meant to be funny
not all of it is! I mean, when it gets really vicious, I think you're supposed to realize that the joke's on you.
― kenan, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:39 (eighteen years ago)
French movie - Irreversible
haven't seen it, but isn't Gaspar Noe's previous movie (I Stand Alone) supposed to be equally brutal?
― milo z, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:41 (eighteen years ago)
Spider
― milo z, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:42 (eighteen years ago)
My favourite unremittingly bleak book is The Passion of Judith Hearne. I remember just thinking, OK, I can't think of any reason for this woman not to kill herself, and that's awful.
― Alba, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:44 (eighteen years ago)
The Lonely Passion of Judith Hearne, that should read.
― Alba, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:45 (eighteen years ago)
Ohhh yes, Spider. Cronenberg jumps the shark.
― Soukesian, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:45 (eighteen years ago)
Large swathes of Chris Morris' 'comedy' radio series Blue Jam are fucking bleak, but they're also frequently funny, so probably void of nomination here. Knowing what's unremittingly bleak is, I suppose, a subjective choice.
I haven't read all of it (nor seen the movie) but isn't Richard Adams' "The Plague Dogs" meant to be fairly depressing?
― Just got offed, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:48 (eighteen years ago)
The bleakest, grimmest, most thoroughly misanthropic music in existence is probably still Godflesh's debut album Streetcleaner, a great little record in its own way but a thoroughly unpleasant experience (in a weirdly compelling manner).
― Just got offed, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:50 (eighteen years ago)
I was just about to post this: http://images.greencine.com/images/movies/123250.jpg
― C0L1N B..., Monday, 6 August 2007 18:50 (eighteen years ago)
"a great little record in its own way but a thoroughly unpleasant experience"
haha! unless you are me! i find it quite pleasant.
i did fall asleep listening to Obscura by Gorguts last week, and I can't say that it was the most pleasant experience. it just kept going and going and i was in that half-awake fever-dream state.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:55 (eighteen years ago)
scott this is carl crew. owner of the CIA (california institute of abnormal arts)
― chaki, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:57 (eighteen years ago)
Haha, Scott! I did mean for the average listener! Actually, come to think of it, the last two minutes of 'Head Dirt' (or was it 'Dream Long Dead') are fairly good fun.
Or you could head straight for Sunn 0)))'s 15-minute album closer Bathory Erszebet (off Black One), seven minutes of tantalising drones followed by eight minutes of some dude croaking from inside a locked coffin as he's slowly asphyxiated by totally impenetrable layers of guitar.
― Just got offed, Monday, 6 August 2007 18:57 (eighteen years ago)
yeah, there is no end to the grim metal. the last time i actually got spooked by a record that felt VERY clastrophobic and evil to me was listening to Deathspell Omega on headphones. and yet, i can't wait to hear their new album!
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 19:00 (eighteen years ago)
chaki, i don't know what the california institute of abnormal arts is! i will google it.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 19:01 (eighteen years ago)
i still have never made it through:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/Shoah_DVD_cover.jpg
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 19:03 (eighteen years ago)
ah yes... me either. a punishing experience.
― kenan, Monday, 6 August 2007 19:04 (eighteen years ago)
- The Match Factory Girl (Kurismaki)
- lots of Bresson - Mouchette, Au Hazard Balthazar, The Devil Probably, L'Argent
- Stan Brakhage's autoposy flick, The Act of Seeing With One's Own Eyes
- Cannibal Holocaust, The New York Ripper, tons of other sleazy Italian horror flicks
- The 'novels' of Peter Sotos, far more disturbing and unpleasant than anything by Dennis Cooper
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 6 August 2007 20:05 (eighteen years ago)
i think drew brought up sotos on another thread a zillion years ago. he's kinda unreadable. i suppose it works as a statement or whatever. or performance art. i mean, at least dennis cooper is readable.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 20:12 (eighteen years ago)
i've always kind of admired cannibal holocaust. i really do see it as a work of art. even if a lot of it is pretty hard to defend. it's filled with sadness. which is something you can't say about something like the new york ripper. the ripper is pretty ugly. and i am a fulci fan.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 20:15 (eighteen years ago)
but this thread isn't really about readability, is it? so, yeah, sotos is bleaker than thou. he's up there. he wants to be de sade or something. i just find that kind of stuff tedious. which is probably why i can't read de sade either. just because you CAN write horrifying child rape porn, doesn't mean you should.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 20:43 (eighteen years ago)
Sotos is the ne plus ultra for a certain marketplace. As for bleak novels that are really, really depressing but also really well written, I recommend Jean Rhys, especially "After Leaving Mr. Mackenzie" and "Voyage in the Dark". Harrowing descriptions of lives in which people just run out of luck and run out of chances.
― Drew Daniel, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:01 (eighteen years ago)
yeah, i guess in the case of Sotos/New York Ripper etc i'm (mis)defining 'bleak' simply as tawdry-stuff-that-left-me-feeling-icky, soiled - but being a jaded old gorehound I'm perhaps more impressed than I'd like to admit when this stuff does still manage to shock the shit out of me (just as I'm still a suckah for the loudest noize shit that really does blow yr head off - Hijokaidan, Hototogisu etc) - i mean, stuff like The Naked Lunch doesn't really do it anymore, whereas the first time I read Sotos I didn't want it in the house, it was that upsetting
Agreed also abt Cannibal Holocaust being some kind of work of art and New York Ripper being some kind of piece of shit - but both of them have in common a v bleak view of the value of living things (see also all those Mondo flicks & semi-snuff documentaries)
bleak plays: Blasted by Sarah Kane, Saved by Edward Bond, The Homecoming by Pinter
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:05 (eighteen years ago)
it's strange the way that whitehouse - w/ or w/out sotos - trade in the same sorta sick stuff but also have this level of satiric camp that kinda undercuts it all
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:07 (eighteen years ago)
fred kelemen is pretty fucking bleak but he always overdoes it.
― ☪, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:17 (eighteen years ago)
I can't seem to find it now, but the other day on my newsreader I spotted this photog who took these gorgeous/horrifying aerial shots of landfills & massive garbage dumps. They were almost like abstract paintings. They get a spread in the upcoming Harper's, I think.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:19 (eighteen years ago)
Other bleakie auteurs - Pedro Costa, Michael Haneke, Peter Watkins
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:24 (eighteen years ago)
Blasted by Sarah Kane
Haha, how could I forget? Yeah, this is pretty extreme stuff (watching my friend of 6 years brutally raping another man onstage was quite startling to say the least), but seeing as it ends on a note of redemption, it's not ALL dark. For that you'd have to seek out her other stuff; I have it on good authority that some of her output (especially the one she wrote a week before topping herself) makes Blasted look like Ivor The Engine...
― Just got offed, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:28 (eighteen years ago)
i've been wondering about jean rhys. i will have to read those. that's my kinda bleak. good lit sadness. richard yates. the easter parade kinda devastated me. or penelope fitzgerald's the bookshop. certainly not the end all and be all of bleakness, but just that quiet sorta kick in the stomach. a book that makes me go oooof.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:28 (eighteen years ago)
i've become an old softy.
― scott seward, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:29 (eighteen years ago)
-- C0L1N B..., Monday, 6 August 2007 18:50 (2 hours ago)
i haven't seen Family Nest but i came to post this http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7274/h3ill640468damnationjg8.jpg from Damnation
― sleep, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:42 (eighteen years ago)
yeah, revolutionary road by richard yates had a similar effect on me - surburban lives of quiet desperation etc - handful of dust by evelyn waugh also had the same sort've effect, complete w/ a quietly terrifying trapped-in-hell ending that comes outta nowhere
bleak non-fiction - serial killer biogs like brian masters bks on Dahmer and Nielsen, Gordon Burns on Fred and Rose, and most especially the film of 10 Rillington Place
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 6 August 2007 21:43 (eighteen years ago)
anselm kiefer
― elan, Monday, 6 August 2007 22:10 (eighteen years ago)
omg those links scott posted upthread i had to look at all of them but i'm sure i wld be physically ill if i watched any of them
low production values, grainy video, flat light or super intense high-contrast light/colour on bad-quality video are all bleak/depressing to me in most cases in the first place - even the old degrassi shows, as much as i love them in certain ways, are somewhat bleak/gross to me b/c of production value alone!
― rrrobyn, Monday, 6 August 2007 22:30 (eighteen years ago)
cf most canadian tv from the 70s/80s
― rrrobyn, Monday, 6 August 2007 22:32 (eighteen years ago)
i don't think bresson belongs here but then.. maybe he does according to 'grim/bleak' just not in the same sense as some of this which (to me) is just brutal/insupportable (like gaspar noe).
some french language novels i've read that come to mind for being incredibly bleak - 'la vie devant soi' (romain gary), 'allah n'est pas oblige' (ahmadou kourouma)
― daria-g, Monday, 6 August 2007 22:34 (eighteen years ago)
Oh god one thing I didn't think of: "Salo" by Passonlini. They unbanned it for a breif window in the early 90s here so I went to see it. And I made myself stay grimly to the end. People were leaving in droves. It was Just So Horrible. The torture scenes at the end of the children with the beautiful classical music playing. Fucked up. I like to know I can say Ive seen it but I never want to see it again.
― Trayce, Monday, 6 August 2007 22:53 (eighteen years ago)
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31MWCQRR9KL._AA240_.jpg
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61VHAS3Y28L._AA240_.jpg
http://www.sciencemusings.com/blog/uploaded_images/goya-708961.jpg (any of Goya's 'black paintings')
― poortheatre, Monday, 6 August 2007 22:55 (eighteen years ago)
http://www.ticketspecialists.com/theater/images/king-lear.jpg
Relentless.
― Eazy, Monday, 6 August 2007 22:57 (eighteen years ago)
Oops.
or Titus Andronicus. yeesh.
― poortheatre, Monday, 6 August 2007 22:59 (eighteen years ago)
i found Meet the Feebles pretty grim/bleak/ill-making
― rrrobyn, Monday, 6 August 2007 23:00 (eighteen years ago)
actually, Beckett owns this thread.
― poortheatre, Monday, 6 August 2007 23:00 (eighteen years ago)
although, i can't think of a single piece of his that doesn't include some humor. maybe Hey Joe, Breath, Film, and some of the later non-dialogue pieces like Quad and Ghost Trio.
― poortheatre, Monday, 6 August 2007 23:08 (eighteen years ago)
I would argue Shakespeare more so than Beckett because Shakes deals with betrayal within the family, within lovers, and within society -- his tragedies don't spring from depression but from acting with the best of intentions.
Also, I'd agree with poortheatre -- there's always the gallow humor with Beckett, and underneath it is the pleasure of wordplay, at least.
Another one: http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/assets/product/0395120985.gif
― Eazy, Monday, 6 August 2007 23:09 (eighteen years ago)
Bleakest Shakespeare I know is Timon Of Athens.
We make ourselves fools, to disport ourselves; And spend our flatteries, to drink those men Upon whose age we void it up again, With poisonous spite and envy. Who lives that's not depraved or depraves? Who dies, that bears not one spurn to their graves Of their friends' gift? I should fear those that dance before me now Would one day stamp upon me: 't has been done; Men shut their doors against a setting sun.
― Alba, Monday, 6 August 2007 23:12 (eighteen years ago)
My dad says Troilus and Cressida is as bad, but I've never seen it.
When I want to think about bleakness, I recite the only bigt chunk I know off by heart, the "out out, brief candle" soliloquy from Macbeth.
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player That struts and frets his hour upon the stage And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury Signifying nothing.
Utterly bleak, utterly perfect verse.
― Alba, Monday, 6 August 2007 23:19 (eighteen years ago)
I've always liked this
THE APPARITION. by John Donne
WHEN by thy scorn, O murd'ress, I am dead, And that thou thinkst thee free From all solicitation from me, Then shall my ghost come to thy bed, And thee, feign'd vestal, in worse arms shall see : Then thy sick taper will begin to wink, And he, whose thou art then, being tired before, Will, if thou stir, or pinch to wake him, think Thou call'st for more, And, in false sleep, will from thee shrink : And then, poor aspen wretch, neglected thou Bathed in a cold quicksilver sweat wilt lie, A verier ghost than I. What I will say, I will not tell thee now, Lest that preserve thee ; and since my love is spent, I'd rather thou shouldst painfully repent, Than by my threatenings rest still innocent.
― Drooone, Monday, 6 August 2007 23:27 (eighteen years ago)
As for King Lear, it's obviously bleak in places, but overall I think it is more a moral play with a positive purpose. Yes, Cordelia dies tragically, maybe gratuitously, but not before Lear has learned his folly and reconciled with her, planned a future in jail where they sing like birds in a cage and talk of who's in, who's out.
The author of Timon Of Athens just seems completely, faithlessly misanthropic.
― Alba, Monday, 6 August 2007 23:30 (eighteen years ago)
interesting point that all music has some kind of catharsis. i was thinking that the bleakest stuff just sort of leaves you sort of drained and empty. about a week ago i joined some people watching city of god about a third of the way in. i'd seen it before and remembered it as vibrant and exciting but where i came in was when lil ze is destroying knockout ned's life and after that it just seemed to be a load of children getting shot. which was pretty grim. without watching the first part of the film rocket's stroy seemed tacked on just to make a load of kids killing each other palatable. i later had a look on wikipedia and apparently that was actually the case. rocket is fictional but most of the horrific gang violence was real.
― acrobat, Monday, 6 August 2007 23:33 (eighteen years ago)
FTW:
EARNEST, earthless, equal, attuneable, ' vaulty, voluminous, … stupendous Evening strains to be tíme’s vást, ' womb-of-all, home-of-all, hearse-of-all night. Her fond yellow hornlight wound to the west, ' her wild hollow hoarlight hung to the height Waste; her earliest stars, earl-stars, ' stárs principal, overbend us, Fíre-féaturing heaven. For earth ' her being has unbound, her dapple is at an end, as- 5 tray or aswarm, all throughther, in throngs; ' self ín self steedèd and páshed—qúite Disremembering, dísmémbering ' áll now. Heart, you round me right With: Óur évening is over us; óur night ' whélms, whélms, ánd will end us. Only the beak-leaved boughs dragonish ' damask the tool-smooth bleak light; black, Ever so black on it. Óur tale, O óur oracle! ' Lét life, wáned, ah lét life wind 10 Off hér once skéined stained véined variety ' upon, áll on twó spools; párt, pen, páck Now her áll in twó flocks, twó folds—black, white; ' right, wrong; reckon but, reck but, mind But thése two; wáre of a wórld where bút these ' twó tell, each off the óther; of a rack Where, selfwrung, selfstrung, sheathe- and shelterless, ' thóughts agaínst thoughts ín groans grínd.
― Just got offed, Monday, 6 August 2007 23:35 (eighteen years ago)
(by the peerless Gerard Manley Hopkins)