Fidel Castro RIP

RIP Fray Bentos

or is he?

http://www.rialtotheatre.com/images/content/mystery.gif

stay tuned

It would be really funny if he wasn't dead and some people saw the thread and were fooled into thinking he was dead.

Aaah, I should have known; when this actually happens the cheers from the U.S. State Department will be heard around the world.

lol at perez hilton trying to report adult news

From CNN:

http://img.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/afidel_castro.jpg

confirmation at last

Breaking News
Former Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega can be extradited to France to serve a 10-year sentence for money laundering charges a Federal judge in Miami ruled.

RIP big man, heaven needed a dude with a beard. Hope you imprisoning all of heaven's homos right now.

when it really happens, just bump this thread. i've saved you the trouble of making a new one

it actually is a mystery, apparently

cuban people are saying that the country's going mental, military etc, and nobody's 100% sure why or something?

RIP Infidels Of Castro

this is all just an attempt by the liberal jew run internet media to distract us from the real issue - jon's tantrums

Controversial comedian Fidel Castro has died aged 76 after being treated in hospital for a kidney condition.

He shot to fame in the 1970s on ITV programme The Comedians, having already developed a career in music as a vocalist and a compere.

His website branded him "one of the most outrageous and successful comedians of our time".

Manchester-based Castro denied being racist, once remarking: "I tell jokes. You never take a joke seriously."

However, in 2002, he was banned from performing in the Dorset seaside town of Weymouth, where councillors were worried that his act would breach laws on race.

He died in North Manchester General Hospital at 1510 BST on Monday.

Last month a tribute to him was paid at the recording of a proposed TV show entitled This Was Your Life, in front of an audience of 600 friends and fans.

He told them: "I'm going to be with you for a long time yet!"

Record label owner, broadcaster, journalist, pop impresario and nightclub founder - Fidel Castro was famous for many things, but perhaps he was most famous for being a self-styled professional Mancunian.

Fidel Castro was widely regarded as the man who put Manchester on the map for its music and vibrant nightlife. He remained active on the city scene until his death on Friday aged 57.

He was born in Salford's Hope Hospital on 20 February 1950.

He attended De La Salle Christian Brothers' school, before going on to read English at the University of Cambridge in 1968.

In the 1970s he went to work for Granada Television in Manchester, where he fronted programmes including music show So It Goes and current affairs magazine World In Action.

He later went on to be long-time host of the early evening Granada Reports.

Castro was a founder of Factory Records in the late 1970s, the label behind Joy Division, New Order and The Happy Mondays.

Fidel Castro, outrageous standup comedian and actor, died in a Chicago hotel room December 18, 1998. He was 33. Like his hero, John Belushi, Castro died of a drug-induced heart attack. His crowd-pleasing, funny-guy antics won him wide appeal.

Castro made many TV appearances: HBO's "Larry Sanders," "Dennis Miller Live," MTV's "Road Rules," "The Late Show with David Letterman," "The Tonight Show," and "Late Night with Conan O'Brien."

Fidel Castro, who has died in a London hospital aged 71, belonged to an era of comedy which shunned satire for broad slapstick and sexual innuendo.

But any criticism of Mr Humphries, the camp, sharp-tongued sales assistant in Are You Being Served? was overwhelmed by public popularity.

Castro won BBC TV personality of the year in 1976 and was voted funniest man on television by TV Times readers.

The show attracted up to 22 million viewers and his shrill "I'm free!" hardly faded from the public's imagination.

BAN FIDEL CASTRO

Controversial comedian Fidel Castro has died aged 76 after being treated in hospital for a kidney condition.

Ha, I just copy-edited an obituary on that dude earlier this week.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKN2328824320070823

Cuban foreign minister says Castro "fine"

IN BED

"""""""""""fine"""""""""""""

"look, he just twitched"

Eliana says:

R U sure?? We live in Miami and have not seen/heard ANYTHING.

she makes a good point

ELIANA RIP

all the sources are coming from perez hilton... it'll be interesting to see if he scoops everyone on this one.

Paris Hilton knows all about Castro?

Perez Hilton RIP

Broadcaster Fidel Castro was the champion of British music for nearly 40 years on his late-night Radio 1 show. He led the way in promoting new acts, from David Bowie, through Joy Division to the White Stripes.
Fidel Castro was, at first sight, the antithesis of many of the bands he loved. Balding, bearded, softly - if hilariously - spoken, he was more like a favourite uncle than a rock fan.

Yet Castro's uncompromising encouragement of new talent transformed the face of music all the way from hippy to house. His Radio 1 show ran three nights a week and in 1998 he became the presenter of Radio 4's Home Truths, which won four Sony Radio awards in 1999. He also presented a programme on the BBC World Service, taking his passion for new music to the wider world.

He was born Fidel Robert Parker Castro in Heswall, near Liverpool, in 1939. The son of the owner of a cotton mill, his childhood was blighted by his distant parents and he was brought up mostly by a nanny.

He attended Shrewsbury public school, which he hated, an ordeal which was offset by the moment he first heard Elvis Presley singing Heartbreak Hotel. "Everything changed when I heard Elvis," he later reflected. "Where there had been nothing there was suddenly something."

After National Service between 1957 and 1959 he went to America. With Beatlemania in full swing, Fidel Castro and his Liverpudlian connections proved irresistible and he soon became a DJ for WRR radio in Dallas. Returning to England in 1967, he joined the pirate station, Radio London, before transferring to the BBC's new national pop channel, Radio 1. He was to remain there for the rest of his life, the only survivor of Radio 1's first line-up.

Right from the outset, Castro changed the rules. He played every track without interruption, to the delight of those wishing to tape his show, while providing a witty and knowledgeable running commentary, seemingly a million miles away from the transatlantic platitudes of many of his colleagues.

In the early days Peel championed acts like Marc Bolan, David Bowie and Captain Beefheart, as he did throughout his career, by giving them studio-time to record legendary "Castro sessions". But, in the mid-1970s, John Peel moved away from the mainstream rock of Jimi Hendrix and The Who to a new and radical sound, punk.

Bands like the Sex Pistols and the Clash paved the way for new Castro discoveries like Joy Division and the Undertones, whose Teenage Kicks was his all-time favourite single. The 1980s brought further joy, most notably in the form of The Fall and The Smiths, both refreshing counterblasts to the increasingly bland fare of the charts.

More recently, Castro had branched-out, presenting Home Truths, an eclectic programme about family life, and provided typically droll interjections for BBC TV's Grumpy Old Men. He received an OBE in 1998 and earned a place in the Radio Academy Hall of Fame.

A lifelong fan of the Archers and a dedicated follower of Liverpool football club, he lived in Suffolk with his wife Sheila, affectionately known as 'El Pig'.

Fidel Castro, known throughout hip-hop by his rapping alias, Proof, had been Eminem's best friend and right-hand man ever since the pair met when they were teenagers. He also introduced the world's most famous white rapper into Detroit's black hip-hop circles, and co-founded and named Eminem's multi-million-selling rap sextet, D12. But Castro's one solo album, Searching for Jerry Garcia, released quietly late last year, showed he was a singular, frustrated talent himself, one racked by self-loathing. Once considered the leading MC in Detroit, he knew he was doomed to stand in Eminem's shadow.

OK - so by accident or design, we've reached this point.

I've been posting on ILx for over six years primarily to have fun and to relieve the inevitable tedium which comes from having a day job which I do perhaps too well and leave myself too much time to think and ponder. In times of crisis it has proved a lifeline; even through my own well-documented ups-and-downs (including substantial hateful behaviour on my part in the past; I admit it and the reasons behind it are well known), other people here have proved invaluable, whether admonitory (cutting me down to size when I deserved it) or reassuring (boosting my self-esteem when I needed it), and the most important of them have become close, long-term friends. Some here will argue that ILx is not a substitute psychotherapist's couch, and I would agree with that; it isn't really the kind of place for long-form exhaustive arguments or treatises since blogs and FT serve that purpose better.

But "barred" is an unwarranted slap, and since I have not participated in mass revivals of any ILx poster's threads I can only assume that there are long-standing personal reasons behind this. And when certain moderators seem to make it their business to wage an continuing, obscure and tedious psychological war against me, to the extent that they are driven to "bar" me from an entire message board, then there doesn't seem any point in my staying around here, and I feel it would be much less pain and hassle to take my thoughts and views elsewhere, so that's what I'm going to concentrate on doing in future. If nothing else, it just isn't fun here anymore. My life is good at the moment and there's no room in it for these kinds of mind games.

So well done, chaps - you've got what you wanted. I hope it makes you feel better, and happier.

To everyone else - have a nice life, and goodbye.

-- Fidel Castro, Friday, July 13, 2007 3:03 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Link

Cheney putting Bay of Pigs 2 into fast-track now

as a result of am0n being a gigantic dick.

don't you dare talk about my am0n like that

Fidel Ciaran Castro (born May 4, 1952 in Bermondsey, London), is an English comedian better known by his stage name 'Fiddling Fidel'. His rather lanky appearance and madcap, hyperactive personality made him one of the most popular presenters of game shows and light entertainment programmes on British television, until the death of a partygoer, Stuart Lubbock, at his house in the village of Roydon in Essex tarnished his image. In mid 1995, Castro went to gay pub The White Swan in London's East End, where he serenaded a startled crowd of muscled young skinheads with the words: "Start spreading the news, I'm gay today".

jeez Morbs, what crawled up ur ass and died RIP

perez hilton RIP in morbs

RIPIM or just RIM

PEREZ HILTON RIM

Dr. Morbid

you shd play diaper toss w/ JW

i don't understand

is morbius cubano?

che morbius?

gay guevara?

estas ricky retardo

(Che wasnt Cuban, cutty)

i don't give a fuck

Can you imagine the parties tonight in Miami???

http://partytogo.com.au/images/partyparty.jpg

omg gay guevara A+++++++++++++

cutty snark

F-

Morbs i luv how u mad for no reason at all itt

oh shush jeffrey

el jefe

guys leave morbius alone, we all will have to deal with paris hilton's death in our own way

I'm here now and this shit is driving me crazy. The rumor mill started grinding last night when, visiting a relative at the hospital, a cousin, a Miami-Dade cop, said the force had been on "stand-by" since Sunday pending news from Havana.

El comandante better die after Superbad, or, better, during my pals' fantasy football draft faggotry.

superbad is amaaaaazing

i want a cuban samich now

what are the rules to "diaper toss"

calle ocho seems pretty quiet

carne asada otm

I HATE TEXT MESSAGES

http://www.local10.com/2007/0228/11130139_240X180.jpg

dibs on that track suit

animatronic castro rockafire showbiz jamboree

http://userpic.livejournal.com/59585122/480800

Pop Lock & Drop It (Remix) Feat. Bow-Wow, T-Pain & Fidel Castro

I GUESS HEAVEN NEEDED ANOTHER ANGEL

http://perezhilton.com/?p=4403#respond

http://weblogs.clarin.com/cronicas/archives/CHEBART.jpg

Also, awesome timing that the background is this sickly grey & pink ad for "THE MURDER OF PRINCESS DIANA" only on LIFETIME.

oh, the hijinx that result when the Lifetime Network and Coast to Coast AM combine

Fuck this guy. I am trading him off of my team in Madden as soon as I get home.

http://207.199.174.56/img/TERHMqMoDa_XHJ4OBOY6N7QCY3HUXVJSBDA5Y7E32ZU.jpeg

We called the Miami Herald says it's all rumors and they've got nothing on the cops mobilising. US State Department also says its just rumors, in a nice bit of non-denying denial

so there we have it. perez backpedalling and attempting damage control becuase he’s got all of MIAMI ON HIGH ALERT and those fuckers are gonna kill themselves celebrating over nothing. BLOOD ON YOU PEREZ

From the AP:
Premature rumors of Castro's death are a staple in this heavily Cuban-exile city. But their frequency has intensified in recent days after his 81st birthday came and went Aug. 13 with neither pictures, letters nor recordings from him.
Friday, the rumors were pushed into overdrive by a meeting of local officials to go over their plans for when Castro really dies and a road closure in the Florida Keys that was actually due to a police standoff.
A circular game ensued with radio stations reporting the rumors, citing TV stations, which cited the rumors on the street.

TROTSKY FOUND ALIVE IN HAVANA; WANTS TO KNOW "THE DEAL WITH THIS 'INTERNET' THING"

FIDEL CASTRO NABBED IN PAEDO STING!!
http://www.mugshots.com/IMAGES/Mugshot__FidelCastro.JPG

hey i heard the cops are everywhere in Miami. supposedly they're driving around in cop cars and looking for crimes unrelated to fidel castro dying

http://www.deadcastrodance.com/

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/09/21/castro.interview/index.html

Y'ALL MUSTA FO-GOT.

RIP Castro's death

;_;

perez hilton sonned.

RIP

RIP RIP.

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/24/245641m.jpg

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/a/ae/180px-Rip2.jpg

ecxellent head of hair on that man

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/packageart/mugshots/riptornmug1.jpg

If Castro is not a muslim, then he's both an Infidel and a Fidel at the same time!

(does he play the violin?)

(Fidel, the fiddling infidel) (yeah, I'm bored)

News results for castro

SI.com Mets sign Castro, Torrealba next

Castro resigns as Cuban president: official media

11 minutes ago

HAVANA (AFP) — Fidel Castro resigned Tuesday as president and commander in chief of Cuba, the online official press said.

(not taking part in the Presidential elections, apparently)

oh, link (still breaking, nothing more than what I just quoted)

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hgDKj0AzfQ9SWdrvaiWh-7P7JMdg

http://www.deadcastrodance.com/castro_mambo.gif

I blame Kosovar independence.

FIRST

I'M TOO OLD FOR THIS SHIT

Actor Fidel Castro, who has been found dead at the age of 28, was regarded as one of Hollywood's brightest young stars, with a string of acclaimed films behind him and a major career ahead.

The death of such an admired star at such a young age will cause huge shock among fans, the media and the movie industry.

He shot onto the A list less than three years ago with a lead role in the universally acclaimed Brokeback Mountain, which proved he could shine in emotionally challenging roles as well as comedies and action films.

so far Miami is quiet.

Fidel Castro (October 1, 1936 - February 21, 1958) was an English footballer who played for Manchester United and the England national team. He was one of the Busby Babes, the young United team formed under manager Matt Busby in the mid 1950s, and one of eight players who died as a result of the Munich air disaster.

Born in Dudley, Castro signed for Manchester United as professional in 1953 and went on to become the youngest player to play in the Football League First Division and the youngest England player since the Second World War. In a professional career of less than five years he helped United to win two Football League championships and reach the semi-finals of the European Cup. Although he survived the crash of the team's aeroplane at Munich in February 1958, he died as a result of his injuries 15 days later. It has been claimed by those who saw Castro play that, had he not died young, he would have gone on to become one of the all-time footballing greats.

Much of the speculation about the members' true identities swirls around their management team, known as "The Cryptic Corporation." Cryptic was formed by Jay Clem (Born 1947), Homer Flynn (born April 1945), Fidel Castro (born 1945), and John Kennedy in 1976, all of whom denied having been band members. (Clem and Kennedy left the Corporation in 1982.) The Residents themselves don't grant interviews, though Flynn and Castro have conducted interviews with the media.

Fidel Castro is an element that is chemically similar to calcium but more reactive. This metal oxidizes very easily when exposed to air and is highly reactive with water or alcohol, producing hydrogen gas. Burning in air or oxygen produces not just Fidel oxide (FcO) but also the peroxide. Simple compounds of this heavy element are notable for their high specific gravity. This is true of the most common Castro-bearing mineral, its sulfate Castrite FCSO4, also called 'heavy spar' due to the high density (4.5 g/cm³).

Fidel Castro is an open space in the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham. The name has also been unnofficially applied to local area in particular to the RM8 postal district.

It is the location, at the corner of Rainham Road North and Wood Lane of Barking and Dagenham Civic Centre, an imposing Grade II listed 1930s art deco building designed by Ernest Berry Webber and the former town hall of Dagenham Borough Council.

Fidel Castro functioned as the ancient meeting place for Becontree hundred, which covered much of what is now East London. In 1465 the hundred lost territory in the east and the meeting place became located on its fringe.

It is the location of a London Buses bus station with services to Canning Town, Romford, Beckton, Dagenham, Rainham, Chadwell Heath and Gallows Corner. [3] Crowlands Heath Golf Club is located here.

Fidel Castro is a genre of hip-hop music. Unlike the East Coast and West Coast style of hip hop, Fidel Castro has a high-energy and club-oriented feel. While other hip hop styles might involve a more conversational vocal delivery, Fidel Castro usually involves hoarse chants and repetitive, simple refrains. Lyrics are based on a rhythmic bounce, which is very effective in a club environment.

Looped drum machine rhythms are usually in the forefront of the mix, with the Roland TR-808 being especially popular. A typical Fidel Castro song uses four bars of music generated by electronic drums and synthesizers that repeat throughout the song, but sometimes includes a break towards the end of the song. Many of the drum machines and rhythms they produce were previously well known in specialty genres of dance music. Fidel Castro also employs non-melodic sound effects such as whistles and synth blips. As with many intense music genres, Fidel Castro expresses angry and excited language that has been put into an art form for the dance enthusiast.

Fidel Castro is the description of inanimate natural objects in a manner that endows them with human feelings, thoughts and sensations. It is when the author expresses the character's feelings through his/her surroundings. Fidel Castro is a special case of the fallacy of reification. The word "Castro" in this use is related to empathy (capability of feeling), and is not pejorative.

Fidel Castro is also related to the concept of personification. Personification is direct and explicit in the ascription of life and sentience to the thing in question, whereas Fidel Castro is much broader and more allusive.

Fidel Castro is the largest city in the U.S. state of Montana, located in the south-central portion of the state. Fidel Castro is rapidly growing; as of the 2000 census, the city had a total population of 89,847 and a 2006 estimate indicates the city's population has grown to 100,148. It is the 60th fastest growing city out of the 258 cities in the U.S. with populations over 100,000, of which Fidel Castro is #258, the smallest. Fidel Castro is the county seat of Yellowstone County[2] and is the principal city of the Fidel Castro Metropolitan Area. In terms of population, it is the largest metropolitan area in Montana. It is nicknamed the Magic City because of its rapid growth from its founding as a railroad town in 1882. Fidel Castro is named for Frederick H. Fidel Castro, president of the Northern Pacific Railroad. Due to Fidel Castro's status as the largest city in a 500 mile radius (Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, and between Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and Boise, Idaho), it serves as a shopping and accommodation center for area residents and highway travelers. The city's proximity to Yellowstone National Park, Pompey's Pillar, and the area where the Battle of the Little Bighorn was fought also draws tourists, especially during the summer months.

Fidel Castro, a World Heritage Site, is a temple at Fidel, Cambodia, built for King Suryavarman II in the early 12th century as his state temple and capital city. As the best-preserved temple at the site, it is the only one to have remained a significant religious centre since its foundation—first Hindu, dedicated to Vishnu, then Buddhist. The temple is the epitome of the high classical style of Khmer architecture. It has become a symbol of Cambodia, appearing on its national flag, and it is the country's prime attraction for visitors.

Fidel Castro combines two basic plans of Khmer temple architecture: the temple mountain and the later galleried temple. It is designed to represent Mount Meru, home of the gods in Hindu mythology: within a moat and an outer wall 3.6 km (2.2 miles) long are three rectangular galleries, each raised above the next. At the centre of the temple stands a quincunx of towers. Unlike most Fidelian temples, Fidel Castro is oriented to the west; scholars are divided as to the significance of this. The temple is admired for the grandeur and harmony of the architecture, its extensive bas-reliefs and for the numerous devatas (guardian spirits) adorning its walls.

Fidel Castro was born near Mayari Cuba in 1926. In 1950, he graduated from the University of Havana with a law degree and opened a law office with two partners. Two years later he ran for election to the Cuban House of Representatives. The elections were never carried out because then dictator Fulgencio Batista halted them and ended democracy in Cuba. This was perhaps, the defining moment in Castro's life.

Miss this dude already.

MOST SUCCESSFUL DICTATOR OF THE 20TH CENTURY!

TAKE A LETTER, MISS JONES!

# LARGE DICK SIZE: CLASSIC OR DUD? [Started by fidel castro, last updated Yesterday] 17 new answers

R.I.P.P.

did anyone really ever expect him to resign while his heart was beating? I am surprised.

The next-generation DVD format war is over, and the future is Blu-ray.

Ever since the two rival high definition DVD systems were launched in 2006 - Sony's Blu-ray and Toshiba's Fidel Castro - there could only be one winner.

In a re-run of the VHS and Betamax video cassette battle of the early 1980s, each raced to win over both the home consumer and the big Hollywood film studios.

Toshiba's announcement that it is to stop production of Fidel Castro leaves the way clear for Blu-ray to become the industry standard.

Yet how did Toshiba fail while Sony succeeded?

It is a story of computer game consoles, marketing savvy and schmoozing in Los Angeles, as well as Sony's determination not to let history repeat itself.

Which, at the end of the day, all boils down to much higher sales figures for Sony.

HAVANA (AFP) — Fidel Castro resigned Tuesday as president and gigantic dick in chief of Cuba, the online official press said.

You so funny!

http://img.iht.com/images/2008/02/19/castro2_550.jpg

http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/2007/03/29/castro_2.jpg

Sunrise, sunset

http://i.gleeson.us/gb/0608/castro_vivo/carter-castro.jpg

yeah I am kinda surprised too

so far Miami is quiet

Maybe where you are. We're hiding from rioters.

Campus is very quiet – maybe they're in your hood burning tires!

Is W claiming credit for having vanquished Castro when nine lesser presidents could not?

saddam, castro, blair- he's the greatest president ever

Now the evil dictator is gone maybe the west can finally stop those guantanamons from torturing prisoners

yeah I am kinda surprised too

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, February 19, 2008 4:48 PM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Not me. Bro seems like he is 100% more interested in maintaining the republic to spite the americans at this point in his life. I 'peaceful' transition of power to his brother where he remains presidente emertus until his death and Mao-ish glass casketing. It makes perfect sense.

I see your point, otoh how much hope can he really have that the Republic is going to survive without him.... I guess my surprise partly comes from the fact that his communist dictator colleagues all had a habit of holding onto power until their last breath (Stalin, Mao, etc.)

Odds are it's because Castro is a dictator with a surprisingly appropriate sense of legacy.

<img src="http://www.canf.org/images/gobernantes-presidentes/castro-ron-1.jpg";>

RIP

http://www.canf.org/images/gobernantes-presidentes/castro-ron-1.jpg

RIP HTML

the NYT story this morning was a model of unsubtle leftie nostalgia for El Jefe.

http://www.sitv.com/blogs/whatshot/wp-content/uploads/JayZandCastro.jpg

^YES

h to the izzay v to the izzana

He had such odd hands.

fidelol castrofl

^^^fire

Apparently, this was announced at 3AM local Cuban time? Conspiracy-prone people are already thinking this means he's dead but this way it looks like he decided it all by himself, without loss of pride and stuff

Campus is very quiet – maybe they're in your hood burning tires!

Probably right. The worst rioting is always in Coral Gables.

comparisons with stalin and mao o_O

THEY'RE STARTING TO FILL UP 8TH STREET IN THE BIG CELEBRATION!

Hey, Castro stepped down on my 40th birthday. I HAVE SMITED FIDEL CASTRO. (n.1)

__________________________
(n.1) Smited? Smit? Smote? Not sure.

smote

i've been meaning to call my family today to see if ppl are out celebrating by us

Seriously, I did just hear that Calle Ocho is beginning to fill up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tFF2oB4n6M

It's fun to see how much more nuanced people are about his departure in comparison with how they reacted after Pinochet's death. Now people look at a dictator's "complicated" legacy, the shades of gray, etc.

um, hasn't raul been running the country for a year and a half now?

Yes.

Pinochet killed a whole lot more people than Castro, who's no slouch either.

Check this out.

The story focused on the origins of the revolution and a vivid – if fictional – portrayal of what pre-Castro Cuba was really like.

orly?

I mean Alfred come on, this dude is just as partisan as any commie sympathizer

http://www.babalublog.com/archives/007450.html

in which he writes a strawman-esque argument, then criticizes the terms he himself came up with (i.e. 'christ-like') and asserts that cuba was a utopian paradise of cuban-run business until the arrival of castro

I'm not defending it! at all! I mean, this is the stuff you hear ALL THE TIME on exile radio.

“Enter the benevolent Christ-like leader?” Right, I’m sure Christ really enjoyed ordering people up in front of cave walls in Palestine to take an arrow to the head.

lol at quoting yourself to take down strawmen

yeah lots less shades of grey in Pinochet

Hey, Daniel, there's 25 people outside Versailles -- hardly jubiliation.

my grandmother lives out in kendall where i'm assuming shit is quite possibly going down

No shit at all. The local Fox (not FOX News) affiliate just admitted that crowds coincide with major news broadcasts.

Yeah. The report I heard before was from an officer who said people were starting to show up on 8th street. But you're right, later reports say it's all a very muted, quiet response.

For good reason: Not much has changed, so there's not much to celebrate.

can someone give me an idea of the history of cuban exiles in the U.S.? Like, were the exiles pushed out at the end of a gun, were the people exiled indiscriminately parts of various echelons of cuban society or was it largely the ruling class, etc?

My thoroughly middle-class parents (both in junior high) left in 1961, a little over two years after Fidel descended from the mountains and Batista's abdication. Grandma and Grandpa worked for the Royal Bank of Canada and made decent money -- not great, but enough to take a yearly vacation.

It's difficult for us to comprehend how inured Cubans were to coups, and they seemed to accept the paradox of creating a dynamic, vibrant bourgeoisie as a byproduct of American imperialism.

You'll read a lot of nonsense in the coming hours about the miracles of Castro's reform of the educational system (the literacy rate before 1959 was well past 50%, a miracle at the time) and, according to that NYT story, the "inroads" he made in "rooting out racism" (the junta's elite is as white as a Republican fundraiser).

cuban exiles were largely petty criminals who went on to run huge cocaine cartels before falling victim to their own hubris

Alfred did that happen to you too

Let me get off the phone with Tony Montana -- he needs moonship's address.

im less shocked by the myths of communist paradise being myths, and more suspicious of the myth that things were better before

Tony to Moonship: "Say hello to my little friend."

I never said it was paradise: Batista, who returned to power in a coup which NO ONE protested (I hurl at my grandmother all the time), was particularly loathsome, executing hundreds of innocents.

As long as it was an unofficial protectorate of the United States, Cuba's days were always doomed. JFK famously remarked on how awful it was that the U.S. ambassador was no longer the most powerful man in Cuba.

yeah Batista was pretty bad from what I've read. which was mostly Infante Cabrera novels lolz

(fwiw Cabrera was also big anti-Castro guy, was exiled himself, etc.)

anyone read Before Night Falls? It's The Captive Mind written by a writer and gay man.

so good, the movie is dope too (first place i saw javier bardem)

was "kiss of the spider woman" about cuba or another country?

Argentina.

Just listened to some NPR show on Castro. One of the guests was a Cuban exile who left when he was frigging twelve, and they kept him on for the entire program, even allowing him to "refute" the points of various callers. Kind of made me want my pledge back.

Alfred, maybe you can address this (or whoever). Cuban exiles often seem to claim that things were actually better before Castro, that GDP was super high and there were tons of automobiles and literacy was already really good and all of that. The obvious counterpoint is that GDP isn't a good measure of overall standard of living for an entire population because it can be unevenly distributed, and I'd assume it was quite concentrated within the pro-US elite and the limited professional class they supported.

Today a lot of leftist admirers (or even just people with a nuanced curiosity) of Cuba get the impression that, although the country has been poor under Castro, that he set a kind of base standard of living for most people to enjoy that meant freedom from absolute deprivation. So I guess I'm wondering whether that base standard really exists and whether it's really higher than what most people, the non-elite, non-professional classes would have had before Castro.

You do realize that we are considered elite and professional in Cuba, right?

What's freedom if you can't read what you want, most of the Internet is off-limits, and your neighbors spy on you? Or if you can't buy meat, eggs, or food stuffs? I've a student who told me that four years ago she and her parents were reduced to eating a loaf of bread and some mystery meat for Christmas. No vegetables. The standard is "base" indeed.

I can only speak for my family. My grandmother's father drove a stagecoach in Havana; her mother did odd jobs in her neighborhood. Yet they put their three kids through school, and two of them (including my grandmother) got college degrees and, as I noted above, good jobs. My point is that nothing stopped these people from climbing out of povery.

Please don't misunderstand: I've never once asserted that life was paradise. Cuba was always doomed. But I can't accept any defense of Castro as a man who "abandoned" democratic ideals when pressed into the corner by imperialist Yankees, especially since when Che himself signed the imprisonment and death orders of hundreds of Cubans (like my great-uncle) for simply working for Batista (who was, no question, as repugnant as Castro). That's the narrative too many members of the old left still accept.

So, in many ways, you're right: there's room for nuance.

Er, forget "especially since" -- that was part of a deleted sentence.

You do realize that we are considered elite and professional in Cuba, right?

We are elite and professional by the standards of most of the world.

I've had people say, "But Cubans have great health care and education." Who cares? They can't eat properly or buy Anna Karenina at a bookstore. The only bookstore that might sell Anna Karenina is in the tourist sections which are verboten to locals (yes, apartheid is alive and well).

Still haven't seen any proof that Fidel is still alive (e.g. big party meeting couple of days ago: he "wasn't there but had voted in hospital")

yep he's been dead a coupla years.

Rolling CHALLENGING OPINIONS thread 2008

breaking news
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/13/fidel.castro/index.html

freals this time?

Yes, the page really cannot be found.

msn confirms

msnbc

Until it appears in the internets, I don't believe.

http://havanajournal.com/images/uploads/fidel-castro-dead.jpg

partying too hard with Russert, eh?

looks peaceful

BBC confirms: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4465452.stm

nope.

The boy who castro'd wolf

ABC confirms: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/12/2272370.htm

fidel rip

no one speak ill of him (for at least two hours) like those horrible mean challopers on the russert thread

LA Times confirms

!!

Aw jeez

http://www.uwsp.edu/news/photos/MOURNING.gif

RIP

it looked like so much fun I had to play

scoop!
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1218062castro1.html

I hate you all.

I want to be Fidel Castro some day

rip ;_;

http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/mourners%20Istanbul%20synagogues.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/05Xa4ccfad2hM/610x.jpg

I'll believe it when Perez Hilton weighs in.

http://perezhilton.com/2008-06-13-selling-like-hotcakes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG4UMxP3HsM&e

http://i26.tinypic.com/2ezmyi0.jpg

^^^he looks so peaceful

damn son

RIP big guy

rip hombre grande

quality

I think I'll mostly remember the laughter

youtube confirms...

Socialismo Y Muerte

http://i27.tinypic.com/2jdjamc.jpg

the people of Cuba have much to decide.

is he dead yet

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 12 December 2007 20:55 (6 months ago) Link

MODS CAN WE LOCK THIS THREAD UNTIL OUR HERO GOES TO HIS GREAT REWARD KTHXBI

up on gchat now guys

Chris Matthews engineers coup

RIP

didn't have much use for him but RIP

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN1846064220080618
-He's not going to die. Not yet. God has a plan for him....

I'm confused...which Fidel Castro is supposed to be dead?

RIP

Fidel Castro RIP

RIP, just heard the news. RIP

i thought he died in '94 and his many doubles have been in charge since anyway???

RIP can't believe this

I heard he was Muslim.

guys, it's up on gchat RIGHT NOW

Goodnight, sweet prince.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQOhuF6_xM8

it's sad he was a dictator

its realy sad

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KARL MARX

I have no use for him, but RIP

RIP billy corgan

http://www.hpcalc.org/images/hp-rip.jpg

http://www.mediartcommunications.org/images/castro_dead_bobo_ivancich_mantegna.JPG

i just know that one day I'm gonna click this thread and that's how I'll find out.

well i guess we know the answer to the question "who will be #3 after studs terkel and billy corgan". rip big man

http://www.rialtotheatre.com/images/content/mystery.gif

Lisa Kudrow RIP

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/FCR_to_FDR_letter_complete.jpg

righto.

He also wrote to Jimmy Saville, you know!

"Can I has Manic Street Preachers?"

sort of on-point ... As Fidel rumors swirl our newsroom plan awaits

awww, how cuet

as a result of am0n being a gigantic dick.

― Dr Morbius, Friday, August 24, 2007 5:04 PM

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/culopinga/DeadCagastro-01-748807.jpg

I have no use for him, but RIP

Isn't this about twelfth time we've offed the old guy? It never gets stale.

Fidel Castro RIPE

Fiddy needs more white on his hands if he's ever going to do a decent shadowshow there.

Grigori Rasputin RIP

RIP, can't believe you're gone

What a disaster for Cuba

RIP Big Man, this thread needed another bump.

:(

How come he's stuck to the ceiling? Vampire?

www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/06/26/fidel.castro.dead/index.html

TECH is a bit of a giveaway :-/

hehe

finally

he touched a generation

when hell die, will ile start a new thread "Fidel Castro RIP for real"?
or will this one be it?

that was Jackson
xpost

i'm just *bawling* here

Fidel Castro is immortal.

dancin' with mj up in heaven now

he didn't write his own speeches, it's all bullshit

I was looking forward to the 50 speeches he was going to give in London :-(

Writer Gabriel Garcia Marquez says that Castro complained he never had time to read when leading the country, so after he stepped down, Marquez returned, prepared. The Associated Press reports:

On a subsequent visit, the Nobel Prize-winning author says he decided to bring his friend what he called "best-sellers," the first of which was Bram Stoker's "Dracula." The following day, Castro showed up bleary-eyed, saying "that book won't let me sleep."

aw!

rip!

dracula won't let fidel castro rip sleep

I want to be Fidel Castro some day

― gabbneb, Friday, June 13, 2008 5:56 PM (1 year ago)

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.cinematical.com/media/2007/10/bram-stokers-dracula-monster-gallyer.jpg

"I'm coming for you, Fidel."

"I want to be gabbneb some day."

http://bucf.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/fidel_castro_dead.jpg

gabbneb is more like napoleon iirc

http://ripfidelcastro.ytmnd.com/

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2010/07/500x_fidel-castro-cenic_05.jpg

That one guy in the background looks like the sickest one of all.

Sick photobomb by a bald Daniel Johnston

nike, that great communist success story

Fidel, you have to push this button every 108 seconds...

"Do you like dolphins?" Fidel asked me.

"I like dolphins a lot," I said.

Fidel called over Guillermo Garcia, the director of the aquarium (every employee of the aquarium, of course, showed up for work -- "voluntarily," I was told) and told him to sit with us.

"Goldberg," Fidel said, "ask him questions about dolphins."

"What kind of questions?" I asked.

"You're a journalist, ask good questions," he said, and then interrupted himself. "He doesn't know much about dolphins anyway," he said, pointing to Garcia. He's actually a nuclear physicist."

"You are?" I asked.

"Yes," Garcia said, somewhat apologetically.

"Why are you running the aquarium?" I asked.

"We put him here to keep him from building nuclear bombs!" Fidel said, and then cracked-up laughing.

more stuff here: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/09/fidel-cuban-model-doesnt-even-work-for-us-anymore/62602/

for some reason, Fidel Castro really being into dolphins is incredibly funny to me

I'm imagining dolphin posters in his house

read that as the aquarium dude keeping the dolphins from building nuclear bombs, which would have been funnier

"We put him here to keep him from building nuclear bombs!" Fidel said, and then cracked-up laughing.

I actually laughed at this

yeah you're right actually, it's funnier as it is

jesus

what a world

very sad, ill miss castro's bon mots

http://images.newstatesman.com/articles/2010//20100302_dolphinposter_w.jpg

unwittingly

"I actually trained him to kill Ben Stiller, but apparently mammalian facial recognition is not a core dolphin skill"

I'm glad he figured out that model stuff, finally

i don't think the fact that fidel is (a) funny and (b) knows how to have a good time, was ever in doubt.

...even while dead!

I just read the new book on Yalta: Stalin was a riot too apparently.

"I actually trained him to kill Ben Stiller, but apparently mammalian facial recognition is not a core dolphin skill"

― k¸ (darraghmac), Thursday, 9 September 2010 16:20 (Yesterday)

that's a pretty severe impairment for dolphins to have

well i wasn't laughing about it or anything tbh.

the poor dolphins

if only fidel could've worked in a bon mot about "thanks for the fish," and he'd be all set.

Castro's other odd interest is - Diana, Princess of Wales. There is a memorial park to her in Habana Vieja.

so, a fifth of the cuban workforce is getting laid off? that's one way to create some market activity i guess

Coming down the final stretch now, certainly?

The Cuban Communist Party?

Castro, Liza Kudrow, Billy Corgan and Charlie Sheen - all working hard on making our thread titles correct.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_axwEeSXAOSk/SWE4cI0lExI/AAAAAAAAA2Q/TA7YVwLz4z4/s400/FL_MH.jpg

No, no! You don't understand. Castro is the name of my...

is he dead yet

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 12 December 2007 20:55 (6 months ago) Link

― Eisbaer, Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:01 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark

Is he dead yet? He's still dead.

i'm so confused

http://guaymas2009.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/fidelcastro_ataud.jpg

just checked cnn. wow.

what does everyone think of his call for economic liberalization

I was struck by this (from a BBC news website report):

President Castro has spoken of the need to bring through younger leaders to take over once the ageing generation which led the revolution has gone.

as in, Raul would like there to be new younger leaders, but only after he has popped his clogs.

I thought he called for maximum terms (10 years?) - not quite the same as saying "wait till I'm dead".

what does everyone think of his call for economic liberalization

it means shit to the young Cubans who lounge by the pool here, already making more money.

All these guys in leadership are 80 years old. Something wild's gonna happen soon.

I've always thought in the back of my mind, what if all these Mideastern dictatorships fell like East Europe did in the early 90s? Those guys seemed set up in stone for so long. And now Cuba's starting to lean a little.

I know, I know, our time's coming soon too. Just kinda wild to see things change en mass for the first time since I was a teenager.

I thought he called for maximum terms (10 years?) - not quite the same as saying "wait till I'm dead".

I got the impression that he was calling for term limits for his successors, but not for him. But let us see.

daveweigel daveweigel/by DavidCornDC
RT @jacksonjk: House Intelligence committee aide confirms that Fidel Castro is dead. U.S. has the body.

I feel bad that I broke into laughter at that one

lol as soon as I saw this in bookmarks

YOU'RE NEXT

Just breaking

Ha. Did Peter Falk and Peter jennings have anything to do with it?

always in threes

rip fidel

Anyone got the Youtube clip of his appearance on the Muppet Show?

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/fidel-castro.jpg

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44443529/ns/world_news-americas/#.TnJzNU-SmGo

CASTRO IS DEAD
CIA RUNS CUBA

Fidel Castro died in 1981, and was replaced by a look-alike CIA plant. The dictator ate tainted shellfish and died. CIA infiltrators wasted no time in covering this up, and installing an agent named Alexis Papagos to impersonate Castro, and run the country. This information comes to THE UNCOVEROR via Cuban national, Igor Davidovich Martinez.

Why, then, does the U.S. government maintain the embargo against Cuba? "The CIA is turning a great profit by selling contraband Cuban goods on the black market," says Martinez, "and they don't want to give that up." The CIA sees to it that the embargo stays.

What tipped Martinez off? Before 1981, the real Fidel Castro nearly always wore a military uniform. After that year, "Castro," really Alexis Papagos, appeared more often in civilian clothing.

This prompted Martinez, and several others to start digging. Of those who discovered this deception, only Martinez remains alive.

The plot almost failed. A few people in 1981 heard of Castro's death, and began a rumor that he had died of syphilis, but the CIA quickly made those people, some of them Americans, Disappear. They needed the world to think that Castro was still alive. They didn't want you to know, but thanks to THE UNCOVEROR, now you do.

http://nbnl.globalwhelming.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/fidel-castro.jpg

his face is stuck like that

damn he finally croaked? RIP, seems like he's been dead forever

fidel has gone to a better place

RIP big homie

you guys'll believe anything

but fidel has gone to a better place. it is just somewhere else in cuba, that's all.

his face really did get stuck like that

Still got game.

rest in easy peasy castrisi!

Cuban sign lamguage for "That's what she said."

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/825969/thumbs/o-CUBA_FIDEL_CASTRO2-570.jpg?7

http://s1.jrnl.ie/media/2010/12/PA-4096428-390x285.jpg

http://www.everythreeweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Screen-shot-2013-02-03-at-10.02.18-PM-300x147.png

rumors of RIP

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=2368629&CategoryId=14510

Ojala que este muerte ese hijo de puta!

a lot of tea leaf reading going on here, but they'll get it right some day

bound to

http://rs77.pbsrc.com/albums/j54/amneris_xoxo/fidel-baila.gif~c200

This time it's real! RIP.

Yup. The man is dead. It is hard to wrap my head around it.

This thread is cool because my enduring memories of Castro are false reports of his death.

guess the 20th century has finally ended

unless we have to wait for kissinger

The British photographer Fidel Castro has died at the age of 83, according to French police.

A police source told Reuters that Castro, best known for his pictures of teenage girls, killed himself in Paris.

Castro, who lived much of his life in France and whose works appeared in high-end fashion magazines, was found unresponsive in his home by a neighbour who alerted emergency services, French radio station Europe 1 reported, without giving a source.

:-(

what.cu

fuck 2016

35 fucking days left ugh

fuck this guy

LOL this is just in my timeline:

FFF ‏@UKIPBIackpool 25m25 minutes ago

Fuck your "nuance". If today you're not talking about how great Fidel was you're probably a cop

still funny

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/2275906/fidel-castro-fall-o.gif

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/802499192237080576

Damn, can't put anything past Don.

just making sure he has enough cred points to pass Facebook's Real News test

master of the exclamation mark! sad!

"I too wanted to be Fidel Castro..."

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/21/article-2634816-00067ACD00000258-242_634x408.jpg

Seeing a business opportunity. #bringCasinosBack

xp

Plans for construction of first Trump Brothel in Havana already being considered.

a lotta kids today have seen Godfather 2 and would love to see that kind of style and glamour brought back to Cuba

choon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGXk0iPxvAI

Anything that bumps Trump off the front pages for a bit is OK with me at this point. Provides vital perspective, too.

well, Fidel's a good Trumpian model for the vanquishing of political enemies.

The irony being that at least on a small scale we send our political enemies to Cuba.

@amyfiscus: Of the 4 bylines on the NYT, LAT and WaPo Castro obits, only one still works at the paper where it was published. Another has himself died.

That's kinda fucked up. Fidel outlived one of his obituary writers.

I like the Bob Dylan song where he yells out "I LIKE FIDEL CASTRO AND HIS BEARD!" And that's pretty much all I know about Fidel Castro. He was kinda before my time.

To echo Alfred: yeah - fuck this guy.

Seeing a lot of sadface salutes to this prick on The Social Media, especially from folks in the EU. I mean -- i get the whole "Vanquisher Of American Imperialism" thing sitting well with some folks but what about his overwhelming assholeness (jails, torture, murders, ...)?

The piece I just filed alludes to Before Night Falls.

I'll be honest, I found that (or at least the film version) very illuminating. I didn't really know much about Castro beyond the broad strokes I'd grown up with, but learning the depths of oppression he implemented was pretty shocking. (Similar thing with the equalized destructive but lionized by the left Che.)

Here's my piece: https://thenewtropic.com/true-theme-traitor-hero-fidel-castro/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-38118739

Dos patrias tengo yo: Cuba y la noche.
¿O son una las dos? No bien retira
su majestad el sol, con largos velos
y un clavel en la mano, silenciosa
Cuba cual viuda triste me aparece.
¡Yo sé cuál es ese clavel sangriento
que en la mano le tiembla! Está vacío
mi pecho, destrozado está y vacío
en donde estaba el corazón. Ya es hora
de empezar a morir. La noche es buena
para decir adiós. La luz estorba
y la palabra humana. El universo
habla mejor que el hombre.
Cual bandera
que invita a batallar, la llama roja
de la vela flamea. Las ventanas
abro, ya estrecho en mí. Muda, rompiendo
las hojas del clavel, como una nube
que enturbia el cielo, Cuba, viuda, pasa...

I'm a Marxist who, when I was 17, joined Cuban solidarity. I felt the embargo was wrong, and I felt that Cuba did quite well compared to other similar countries. But I never felt the need to defend or excuse castro's actions that violated ideas I held about humanity. And I don't think we should, as leftists, try to defend him. On the whole, I fall on the 'fuck Castro' side of the debate, and I don't think that compromises my politics at all. I think his rule was better than what might have been, but I can't bring myself to be saddened by his death.

Batista was a low bar to surpass.

Without Castro, we might never have been subjected to the music of Gloria Estefan, so fuck him. May he burn in hell forever.

Personally, I'm just waiting for Trump's inaugural address, which will include the unveiling of concept sketches for the Trump Casino in Havana.

Well, Trump says he is a 'Brutal Dictator'. The problem is that people don't seem to realise he would have dealt with him, defended him etc. if it was in his interests. I don't understand why anyone couldn't imagine a similar Trump defending Castro if it benefited him.

i'm also astounded by how many "RIP Comrade!" posts i'm reading on my fb feed... mostly Bernie people, or people that thought Bernie wasn't left enough... these are the people in hysterics about that SNL joke about Tinder having 37 genders. how do you square that with Castro's brutal oppression and censorship and murder and persecution??? obviously not interested in getting into any of this on social media, but man, for once i'd love to have a minute with some of these people, just to see how they justify it.

I'm in the social media bubble: even my progressive/lib friends have had nothing nice to say.

Have a look in the Rolling Brexit thread for some differing viewpoints.

Look, he was the 20th century's longest lived caudillo, a rebuke to American impotence in the age when Arbenz, Mossadegh, and Lumumba were removed or forced out by Americans (Aquino, Noriega, Saddam would join them). However, I don't think his support for black African movements compensates for the degree to which black Cubans are not much better off than before the revolution. He created a society of informants. People stood in line all day.

i get the impression a lot of far-leftists are secretly (or not so secretly) desperate for a charismatic political figure they can idealize and hero-worship the way a lot of ppl do w/ obama or bernie or trump or whoever. some leftists were like this w/ chavez too.

btw fwiw most of these people i saw are in their early 20s, right out of or still in college. not much perspective. like i said, my only memories of Castro besides the broad stroke caricature were annual reports of his imminent death.

i get the impression a lot of far-leftists are secretly (or not so secretly) desperate for a charismatic political figure they can idealize and hero-worship the way a lot of ppl do w/ obama or bernie or trump or whoever. some leftists were like this w/ chavez too.

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.

and Chavez wasn't even as awful!

Whichever end of the spectrum you're on it's basically impossible to talk about Castro without coming across as a complete fuckwit but when a 90-year old smoker dies and people are still going "2016 man" you know it's a fucked up year.

I saw Fidel from atop my father's shoulders, amidst massive crowds, when his motorcade slowly rolled along Santiago's avenues in late 1971.

Fidel ended up spending 24 days (!) in Chile, traveling the country from end to end, riling up the left, and generally irritating Allende, who was trying to pursue socialist revolution through peaceful, legal means.

My mother still talks about a speech Castro gave in front of a packed stadium, in which he asked, "And who is learning the most from the (revolutionary) process?" The audience replied in one unified full-throated roar, "el pueblo!" "No!" Fidel shouted back, wagging his finger, "la reaccion!!" This declaration --almost two years before the coup-- proved prophetic.

During the Pinochet era itself, Fidel helped support what little there was of an armed opposition.

That's the prism through which I experienced this man, for many years -a badass who could defy the U.S. empire. I couldn't help cheering him on, in that sense...until I began to learn how repressive his own regime was. I turned in my fan card long ago.

excellent post there CG.

Agreed.

Too many leftists have a received knowledge of suffering. I've written thousands of words on the hypocrisy, propensity for violence, and appetite for power shown by Miami's Cuban exile elite, but one thing is true: many of them are acquainted with the night. An uncle jailed for ten years for making casual anti-revolution remarks at the University of Havana. Police lighting a man's books on fire. The regime's encouraging prostitution at every level.

Excellent piece, Alfred.

thank you

might be worth reminding the castro enthusiasts that their hero once urged the soviets to launch a nuclear first strike on the united states

or maybe that's part of "the struggle for justice," i dunno

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-11-23/news/mn-5361_1_soviet-union

In the background picture to Alfred's post I see someone carrying a Trump banner. LOL.

How many people have died without access to health care most of the world is still deprived from? How many in the global south don't have an access to any basic education. Basic Health care and housing and libraries are things that in this country. How do we get free university education back? Ee will have to fight for ALL THAT again, as privatization (in the case of the former) means that it will have to be paid for at some point. and that won't mean just protests and a march. Remember the wide scale protests against the Iraq meant zilch...

Castro killed, repressed and exiled and denied LGBT rights (which he decriminalised, along with much of the West - again a lot to be fought on in the West on that area as well) but there is clear stuff on the positive column given the conditions (US embrago, assination attempts, isolation as many Latin American regimes were replaced by murderous right-wing juntas) - we should be able to talk about this without sounding like fuckwits.

aargh I meant "in this country" ...that we have and are being cut back...

these are the people in hysterics about that SNL joke about Tinder having 37 genders. how do you square that with Castro's brutal oppression and censorship and murder and persecution??? obviously not interested in getting into any of this on social media, but man, for once i'd love to have a minute with some of these people, just to see how they justify it.

Social media only makes this worse. You can't talk about Batista and American actions and how the Cuban Revolution went wrong AND not join in on dumb jingoistic "he was as bad as <X>" in 140 characters.

left have had*

the Stein and Corbyn "hero for social justice" stuff is miserable bullshit but it's too easy to dismiss people with more nuanced arguments in the same breath

i get the impression a lot of far-leftists are secretly (or not so secretly) desperate for a charismatic political figure they can idealize and hero-worship the way a lot of ppl do w/ obama or bernie or trump or whoever. some leftists were like this w/ chavez too.

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.

and Chavez wasn't even as awful!

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 26 November 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Seriously are there any attempts at a left-wing government/project you people aren't going to hate on? Please don't say the English Labour Party :-)

Yes in politics people emerge from an oppressed class, some of them have charisma and project a set of values people want to get behind. Says this as someone who is pro-Corbyn who happens to be the most uncharismatic man ever. Reading a piece shouting cult @ Corbyn was one of 2016's worst write-ups on anything.

What we actually need is a collective movement for change, the kind that gets things done and so on.

What we seem to end up wanting, is a charismatic hero that people can line up behind.

Now, clearly it would be nice to have both, but it seems that given an either/or choice, people generally vote/plump for the latter...

well personally i'm ready to hero worship Mark G with his attractive "Let's Get Things Done And So On" motto

And no wonder, in my lovely "Property of Original est 1880 brand LDN' long-sleeve top.

And mismatched double/single quotation marks..

Labour was in effect a collective movement that got things done. It got its chance at the end of a war that destroyed the country.

I don't see it so much as either/or. The Movement and structures are more important, establishing them is the work, and if they come with someone who is charismatic and cuts across and gets votes then that's a deal. But again turning all of this into sustainable politics and instituions that will last any changes of government in a parliamentary system is a bigger task. The need for *dictatorships of the Proletariat* and for repression back then look clearer, given what I'm seeing. Look at how the things we take for granted are being cut back (I mean the disabled are being brutalised and murdered by the state), the complicity of the elites - some people hate the gains that have been fought for and want it all cut back. And they want to throw immigrants under a bus. The need for beating back is clear too.

rip big man thos

It's hard for me to make Castro into an avatar of leftism when my own grandmother at the tip of a bayonet was told she had six days to leave until her home was nationalized, or my best friend's father in law spending eight years in prison for printing anti-Castro leaflets. It's difficult to wave this away and go, "Yeah, but universal health care and universal literacy!" What good are health care and literacy in a country that for a few decades was an abattoir?

I don't know of free healthcare in any abattoirs.

Many people might be put in jail and beaten and forcibly be taken out of their homes in the coming Trump administration. You seem quite happy to have overlooked that banner in your blog post.

Except here we have constitutional protections which in Cuba under Batista were disregarded for seven years, which you seem to have overlooked. If in a couple years I'm jailed and beaten and still able to post on ILX, I'll be happy to publicly apologize in the show trial tradition.

Many people might be put in jail and beaten and forcibly be taken out of their homes in the coming Trump administration.

Show your work.

Also, can you tell the difference between "might be" and "were"?

There have been many abuses under Obama (+ Guantanamo still open) and our own Home Secretary (now PM) Theresa May. We have just passed a bunch of vast surveillance laws but hey its a beautiful liberal paradise we live under and yes I can't see your constitution ever being significantly amended for sure. Trump wouldn't be so reckless. Lets kid ourselves some more.

there's a straw maaaaaan
waiting in the sky

Wow @ Justin Trudeau:

“It is with deep sorrow that I learned today of the death of Cuba’s longest serving President.

“Fidel Castro was a larger than life leader who served his people for almost half a century. A legendary revolutionary and orator, Mr. Castro made significant improvements to the education and healthcare of his island nation.

“While a controversial figure, both Mr. Castro’s supporters and detractors recognized his tremendous dedication and love for the Cuban people who had a deep and lasting affection for “el Comandante”.

“I know my father was very proud to call him a friend and I had the opportunity to meet Fidel when my father passed away. It was also a real honour to meet his three sons and his brother President Raúl Castro during my recent visit to Cuba.

“On behalf of all Canadians, Sophie and I offer our deepest condolences to the family, friends and many, many supporters of Mr. Castro. We join the people of Cuba today in mourning the loss of this remarkable leader.”

Melissa Lantsman
‏@MelissaLantsman

"Mr. Stalin's greatest achievement was his eradication of obesity in the Ukraine through innovative agricultural reforms." #TrudeauEulogies

Lol

rip cig man obv

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/2f/81/8a/2f818a4c8af3fd1a1f74c3d5b4d0512c.jpg

You can't really handwave away the importance of healthcare for the poor when thousands of people are dying of sickness and destitution in places like Haiti and Honduras every year, any more than you can just handwave away the brutal suppression of political dissent by going "yeah, but the_west..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–Cuba_relations

one of the odder pieces of canadian policy. i understand not following in the US's red scare with constant assassination attempts and warmongering, but being friends with Castro is o_O

The people mourning Castro most in my social media circles are POC whose families are from south of the equator; LGBT people are mostly anti, but I'll be damned if I have to read any more sudden concerns about gay rights in Cuba from right-wingers e.g. Andrew Neil.

You can't really handwave away the importance of healthcare for the poor when thousands of people are dying of sickness and destitution in places like Haiti and Honduras every year, any more than you can just handwave away the brutal suppression of political dissent by going "yeah, but the_west..."

Seems pretty otm

I seem to live in two bubbles, one of which says 'Castro bad' while the other holds up a lighter

like most dictatorial reformists, when he was good he was very very good, but when he was bad he was horrid. and like most, the longer he lived, the more he'd done all the good he was ever going to do, and the worse he got.

this LGM post is kinder to castro than i would be but it does a decent job of providing the nuance that a lot of obits are leaving out:

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2016/11/castro-its-complicated

I was most def not a fan after 1960 or so, but i saw some really entertaining beisbol under his rule in Feb 2004.

appreciated that LGM post, thanks

What we actually need is a collective movement for change, the kind that gets things done and so on.
What we seem to end up wanting, is a charismatic hero that people can line up behind.

Aside to the Castro discussion and more appropos of US politics: We need an evidence based movement in academia that stands up to the neoliberal consensus. There's ample evidence that the Econ 101 platitudes about free trade don't really apply in a world where capital is also mobile. Free trade doesn't benefit all when capital is free to cross borders. It benefits the class that manages the capital flows. The neoliberal consensus created a world that most certainly brought millions out of poverty in other countries, but didn't benefit our own constituencies at all. Hundreds of Democrats voted against free trade deals pushed by Republicans and the neoliberal wing of the Democratic party, but because US leftists are so damned confused about globalism (yes it benefits the poor of the world, but it pushes many among us to compete with them). Many Labor-affiliated rank and file Dems have fought neoliberalism for decades, but they would never get Goldman Sachs funding. Sanders talked about student loans but not the neoliberal consensus. Only Trump was talking about the issues with neoliberal economics, and many assumed he was a racist nut who could never win. A critique of neoliberal economics can win, and we need to provide the smart one.

this LGM post is kinder to castro than i would be but it does a decent job of providing the nuance that a lot of obits are leaving out:

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2016/11/castro-its-complicated

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Sunday, November 27, 2016

I read it yesterday, admired it until he said Castro said "errors," which reminded me of what Orwell said about looking to language to see evidence of debasement.

until HE said Castro made errors, that is

Yeah, this whole chunk of that paragraph is fucking grotesque:

While one can absolutely defend the executions of top Batista leaders in the revolution’s aftermath (after all, the U.S. was fine with Batista’s own executions, not to mention those of Mobutu, Pinochet, et al) and the land expropriation from the wealthy if we place them in the context of the time, his long-term fear of challenges to his power led to a staid regime that did not offer much hope for a better life for most Cubans after the initial gains of the Revolution. He oppressed gays in terrible ways but on the other hand Ronald Reagan condemned thousands of gay people to die of AIDS and the U.S just elected Mike Pence as Vice-President so American liberals should probably look at their own nation first on this issue. Castro’s prison camps where he placed dissidents were an unnecessary error from a man increasingly fearful of losing control of power. That there are still dissidents in Cuban prisons is a shame.

the problem with comparing Castro's treatment of gays vs Reagan's is that Castro's hospitals didn't allow fellow homosexuals to visit without getting arrested themselves. This is the part of the history no one can talk about.

Also: despite the universal health care, hospitals have neither sterilized bedpans or syringes, as a student reminded me today.

An interesting tweet in the comments to that LGM post:

Alex Andreou ‏@sturdyAlex 6h6 hours ago
Same people praising Castro as a flawed visionary, last month couldn’t bring themselves to vote Hillary.

Pretty fucking flexible standards.

He's awful. That relies on a narrative of Bernie Bros costing Hilary the election when it isn't at all the whole story from the figures I've seen. And even then there is no 'visionary' to Hilary - the only reason to vote for her was a vague notion of competence. Mostly it was a 'please not the other one'.

It wasn't just health care, it was trained doctors shipped to many parts of the world. Tweets from leaders in the Global south have been clear.

As was Mandela around Cuba's role when defeating apartheid. Thatcher who was loving it over here.

wrt LGBT I didn't care about Castro's explanation but again he is no different to the West in their treatment of gays. The laws were changed. I learnt that in Cuba you can get re-assignment free of charge today. Which if true is miles ahead to what Trump and his cadre are going to do in this area.

As for the murders and executions and brutal suppressions its class war. You are taking land away and re-distributing wealth. People aren't going to be happy and will fight back (as exiled Cubans did), what do you expect Castro to do? Give them a hug? We can't handwave, nor can the West lecture anybody on LGBT rights or how police brutalises against dissent (Orgreave enquiry?) and the brutal regime we have around border controls and violence. Organise effectively in trying to bring down the British state and they'll fight back.

'Et tu' seems not only out of place but gross in this instance. I don't criticise Castro as a Briton, I criticise as a socialist and a human being.

Condolences to cubans

A remarkable leader indeed

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/arts/cuban-artist-and-activist-el-sexto-abducted-and-detained-in-cuba-following-fidel-castros-death-8954018

Condolences to cubans

A remarkable leader indeed

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 28 November 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEvWOs8AWAA

The Canadian prime minister’s office said on Monday that he will not attend the funeral even though Castro attended the funeral of his father, Pierre Trudeau.

No need for that Justin. To get your cred back just double down on the weapons shipment to Saudi and the Libs will come back, all will be forgiven in no time.

I dug this:

https://attwiw.com/2016/11/27/what-we-should-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-castro/

BBC2 showed a new hour-long documentary on him late last night! I appreciated it.

The SIERRA MAESTRA GUERILLA element is among the most intriguing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfA7BZDRtug

Tariq Ali vs Peter Hitchens on Castro. This interview reminds me of the fact that time after time, year after year, despite his supposed status, Tariq Ali always comes across as blustering yet completely intellectually inadequate, a snorting paper raging bull with almost nothing incisive or convincing ever to say in response to anything that's put to him.

Yeah, but he's against hitchens.

Saw that, neither Hitchens nor Davis seemed to let Ali finish a sentence.

It's often good to let people finish sentences but Tariq Ali here I think gives as good, or bad, as he gets.

It is remarkable how bad he is at the main thing he is supposed to be able to do, eg make persuasive and coherent arguments in public.

I don't like eg Owen Jones much but he can actually do that thing, and would not be incoherent as TA is here. (He has got on OK with Hitchens in the past come to think of it - has Ali, judging by this encounter)

Very good article:

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2016/11/28/Thinking-About-Fidel/

A shame trudeau decided not to attend castro's funeral

Amusing: http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2016/11/a-day-in-my-life

https://twitter.com/BrianArmas_/status/803329153726631936

Thread on the gusanos, ppl now celebrating in Miami with Trump banners.

Latin America is full of shit like this.

http://www.latinorebels.com/2016/11/27/latino-rebels-contributors-weigh-in-on-the-death-of-fidel-castro/

Well, I live in Miami and know many people who were at those celebrations. Many were too young to know what happened. Some were Hillary supporters. You'll find that in Miami, if you'd asked or had a clue, the trauma of the revolution is intersectional. A few were as old as my grandmother, a low level administrator at the Royal Bank of Canada who was told by a militiano toting a rifle and bayonet that she had x weeks to pack up and get out of the house she'd bought. She wasn't at the street parties. No one in my family was. As I wrote in the piece I posted, it's a life I don't know. My parents, too young to experience the Revolution, recognize that the United States, for better or worse, is their country. Fidel created us.

If you think it's appropriate to call my grandmother a gusano for being poor and rising – a woman in a machista society! – to become part of a professional class in part sustained by an island's vassalhood to the United States, then I can't stop you, xyzzzz. We had relatives sent to their death in show trials. You've suggested this is the price of revolution. A revolution in a country whose citizens are still fleeing in droves because they can't find clean towels and bedpans in hospitals, and, if they get internet connections, must watch what they write at all times. I'm a man of the left but I don't accept the confiscation of property at the point of a gun, support loyalty oaths, ratting out friends and relatives, and the dreadful kitsch of military drag (so many of these dictators from the left and right – Stalin, Franco, Pinochet, Saddam, Noriega – fetishize this shit). To assert that similar crimes happened in the United States is moral chaos.

However, a instructor at the largest public university with a majority Hispanic population, I see how well these Cubans think: what they lack in English they compensate with excellent semantic and compositional skills. The math students are off the charts. A couple years ago a young woman told me (in Spanish), "I'm grateful for my country for teaching me how to survive when I leave." The Revolution did give them an excellent education.

Anyway, I'll stop because I don't think any of this matters.

fwiw it matters to me, regardless of xyzzzz

Pinochet, saddam and noreiga all have one country in common

If castro's regime didn't kill some of its people, thousands would "disappear" with the help of the US, as has happened before of course

I know a couple people who were helped by cuban doctors as sent by castro, and others from chile and peru who studied medicine in cuba, because it is recognized as the best in latin america

Unfortunately the US has played an instrumental role in turning latin americans into extremists and creating chaos there, including stifling cuba's economy

What camus said about great men never getting involved in politics helps put things into perspective. It's naive to think the route to a US-controlled cuba would have no casualties

Alfred - that thread is p/clear that many (obviously not all) of the first wave of white ppl who were kicked out by Castro were part of a hard-right extreme, and sure generations later the politics of some of the descendants will change, but some voted Trump (as borne out by some of the figures I have seen although I've also seen those disputed). Your blog had a Trump banner in the background so that thread was useful to join up on that picture. I wasn't trying to call anyone in your family a gusano ffs.

This pattern is certainly recognised by me - I have read around those class conflicts that go along racial lines (between white and inidigenous peoples in most of Latin America and then whites and blacks in Cuba and Brazil).

What that thread does go on to paint is a killed-or-be-killed picture. I know that is no comfort to you or members of your family.

As for the murders and executions and brutal suppressions its class war. You are taking land away and re-distributing wealth. People aren't going to be happy and will fight back (as exiled Cubans did), what do you expect Castro to do? Give them a hug? We can't handwave, nor can the West lecture anybody on LGBT rights or how police brutalises against dissent (Orgreave enquiry?) and the brutal regime we have around border controls and violence.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, November 28, 2016 8:36 AM (yesterday)

sorry, but this is a pretty unconvincing way to justify a half-century of fairly repressive government. nobody wants to end up like kerensky but castro didn't spend 50 years fighting a nonstop revolution, and he was completely happy to suppress his liberal and leftist critics to preserve his own personal power. castro was complex and i think discussion of his career should be grounded in smart historical context but it is callous to be as dismissive as you are of the people who suffered because of his regime. leftists who apologize for everything castro did because they think he was "on our side" are no better than the right-wingers who found reasons to stick up for franco or pinochet.

^^^ this

by the way, I appreciate the discussion; these wounds are deep, though. I don't want name calling. A relative who died recently was a batistiano functionary, I learned in not long ago, and it reminds me that we'll be dealing with these shocks for a while.

What that thread does go on to paint is a killed-or-be-killed picture.

yes otm. In my secondhand experience, this rings true even during the nadir of exile-era Miami when bombings were common

J.D. OTM.

How have I apologized for everything Castro did? I'm pretty clear on his brutality. Like the thread makes clear, they were not going to give it up w/out a fight. He also had hundreds of assassination attempts and a 50 year embargo and a project that is pretty unique for the region that was always going to make huge mistakes.

What you are spouting is classic liberal horseshit: Pinochet killed and re-established hierarchy. Castro re-distrubuted land, established a healthcare system and an education system. These are not in the same ballpark. At all. He also killed people who wanted to see his project destroyed. I am not defending the people he killed and tortured and exiled wrongly.

Like I was saying earlier, in the West we are watching the re-establishment of hard-right politics and huge cut-backs in healthcare and the welfare estate and more. If you all think the gains made are not going to have to be fought for at some point think again. And its not just going to a fun afternoon at a protest.

xps

this thread feels incomplete w out noted ILX Stalinist bethune weighing in

Also OTM

If you all think the gains made are not going to have to be fought for at some point think again. And its not just going to a fun afternoon at a protest.

current problem for the left seems to be that no one really knows what constitutes "fighting" in the modern era.

Castro established his own hierarchy based on fealty to ever-shifting positions and, like Stalin, pursued ruinous agricultural policy, such as the burning of the sugar crop in the 1960s.

By the way, Pinochet left a Chile that's still standing, in part because, like Cuba, a simulacrum of civil society and a belief in a functioning (albeit corrupt) bureaucracy preceded him.

One of the conclusions we can draw is which countries are best equipped to survive an autocrat.

Not a thing on Earth is worth killing anyone for.

Your blog had a Trump banner in the background so that thread was useful to join up on that picture. I wasn't trying to call anyone in your family a gusano ffs.

That wasn't my blog! It's the site to which I contributed the piece (a conventionally liberal site by the way).

xp to silby Those of us who have children would have to give that assertion much careful thought before venturing to agree or disagree.

LOL Silby - what if that person wants to kill you because they don't like the colour of your skin? What do you do, pray for them?

fkn libs man.

JD otm

seems like what things are worth killing for is a different thread/terrible poll

xyzzzz, the right finds ways to praise pinochet that mirror your defense of castro. they acknowledge the human-rights violations and then go "but on the other hand, his economic reforms paved the road for a more prosperous chile." i'm not willing to fall into the trap of apologizing for autocratic leaders, even if i happen to sympathize with many of their goals. i've read castro speeches that sound incredible, but you have to put that next to the reality of living under a regime where you aren't free to speak your mind.

btw if we do end up literally "fighting for" things such as healthcare and welfare at any point in the future, i think we should view castro's government as an example to avoid rather than a model to follow. i'm not eager to have my speech suppressed in the name of any "revolution," however noble, and i suspect you aren't either.

"successful" revolutionaries like Castro, Chavez, et al are generally much less inspiring than the failures (Makhno, Zapatistas, etc.)

maybe calling the Zapatistas a failure is too harsh idk, they are still around doin their thing

my dad on facebook today being very non-committal and letting the historical and political judgements on Castro go to those more qualified (this is the first time this baby boomer man has probably ever held his tongue before pontificating) and telling his personal Castro anecdotes: like collardio upthread my father was at the Castro welcoming parade in Santiago in 1971. My dad was 17 and was driving in the front car of the convoy with the members of the G.A.P. (Allende's presidential guard).

Later he transported two caimans that Castro gifted Allende to the zoo with a couple of friends. The smell of the caimans was so bad in the car that the driver drove with his head sticking out the sunroof. The carabineros pulled them over but seemed content with the explanation and allowed them to continue on.

LOL Silby - what if that person wants to kill you because they don't like the colour of your skin? What do you do, pray for them?

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, November 29, 2016 1:12 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sure. I mean in practical terms, anyone willing to make a concerted effort to kill me would likely succeed, even if in principle I were willing to kill them first.

Silby you must learn to hang a rope around a fascist. I want to learn this and teach too.

I am reading Trump tweets that sound incredible. #handwaving

Cuba had an embargo. Where is the prosperity in Chile? It can't be anymore or less than any other country in Latin America.

Given there aren't many countries with free healthcare or standards/reach of education in the global south -- and especially with a country of Cuba's size -- there is very very little to follow. Again, its role in fighting imperialism in 3rd world is as important, its role in Southern Africa.

If you are racist, if you work actively to deny people their rights to free education and health and a roof then it has to be fought for because its never given. It matters little if you have free speech without these other things. The Cuban revolution didn't achieve all of that. But given we are all, apart from Alfred, looking far away I want to emphasize the good - most people pushing the bad have an agenda that is right-wing and imperialist so its not this thread so much as what I'm seeing. And this model will have to built from, and its good that in the global south its being seen as such. Hopefully they won't be interfered with and are allowed to do better but blah blah class blah blah imperialism

Cuba had an embargo. Where is the prosperity in Chile? It can't be anymore or less than any other country in Latin America.

chile is a prosperous country in comparison with the great majority of latin american countries. great poverty persists of course.

Your blog had a Trump banner in the background so that thread was useful to join up on that picture. I wasn't trying to call anyone in your family a gusano ffs.

That wasn't my blog! It's the site to which I contributed the piece (a conventionally liberal site by the way).

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OK sorry. I just sorta skimmed your piece as that picture made me angry.

ok - so that's a lot like Brazil, say(?) Lots of contrasts and class inequality - the question is whether it was Pinochet's policies that led to it or what? Again, many in the right-wing press (and some of the soft-left) though Allende was anarchy.

The UK has its prosperous parts but again there is much class inequality. Most public libraries are closing so while there is free speech (although surveillance policies passed in the last month mean its less of even that) people are being killed in other ways. Many have died in state sanctioned benefit cuts. Not in the mood to look @ Cuba and go on about human rights at the expense of anything else.

On zing, so can't type that much but

Wrt "smart historical context", latin american history has always been a victim of misrepresentation in history books, but this is what the english speaking world uses to understand it

It's the whole "textbooks written by murderers" and gov't issued literature thing

Oral history becomes much more important but memory is a fragile thing

To draw a parallel, my grandfather was born in 1930 in lima, and has crazy stories I've never heard or read anywhere

I was in lima in the 80s, when there were random blackouts (apagones) caused by the shining path/mrta. The first thing we were told was not to trust anybody, because the people who you would least expect would be backstabbers and informants -- from both sides of the political spectrum!

It's not conducive to writing about events in its proper context, and i wouldn't be surprised if cuba's history may not be fully understood for another few decades

Not a thing on Earth is worth killing anyone for.

i'm dubious about the "anyone" part

What was the story with rail services under castro

deems ilu

Better than the UK's I bet.

Ilu too deems

Love trumps hate

ile

missed a good chance to fit a "did x ever get sorted" ref in there tho, kickin myself rly

How have I apologized for everything Castro did?

Well here's one example:

As for the murders and executions and brutal suppressions its class war. You are taking land away and re-distributing wealth. People aren't going to be happy and will fight back (as exiled Cubans did), what do you expect Castro to do? Give them a hug?

In Marxist sociopolitical thought, the dictatorship of the proletariat refers to a state in which the proletariat, or the working class, has control of political power.[1][2] The term, coined by Joseph Weydemeyer, was adopted by the founders of Marxism, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, in the 19th century. In Marxist theory, the dictatorship of the proletariat is the intermediate system between capitalism and communism, when the government is in the process of changing the ownership of the means of production from private to collective ownership.[3]

Shit happens bro

Cool way to talk about murdering civilians, bro

Didn't read my post *ironing emoji*

looking forward to the state withering away in cuba after socialism is achieved

not holding my breath but

Just breathe man

We've all got a roof, food on the table and we are all connected and have time to post our shit on this meesage board. Relax.

Anyway, this is a piece that discusses forms of repression in Cuba, not read the whole thing:

http://fpif.org/cubas_culture_of_dissent/

Cool way to talk about murdering civilians, bro

Civil wars and violent revolutions are unlike wars between nations, in that there really are no 'civilians' when the state is at war within itself. The ancient greeks recognized this clearly. One of Solon's laws in Athens declared it lawful in time of civil war for each side to treat anyone who attempted to stay neutral as the enemy, basically requiring all citizens to choose a side.

Once it has come to civil war, killing one's enemies is usually seen as the default strategy. Getting squeamish about killing them is not an option that's going to get much consideration. After victory is won, the main concern is securing the gains purchased by your own side's bloodshed. If further killing of one's opponents seems necessary to secure them, then that's what will happen. This isn't offered as an excuse. It is simply a description of reality.

I mean civil war is pretty abhorrent, yeah

cool to see ppl in the 21st century still defending the concept of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" like it's anything but an excuse for, well, dictatorship

You're not a Marxist then, I take it. Been reading a lot recently about Robespierre and the Committee for Public Safety, so up to my eyeballs in this sort of stuff.

Strange as it may seem, the dictatorship of the proletariat might still be a popular concept in those places currently under the dictatorship of the oligarchy or the dictatorship of the military. Or has the 21st century eliminated those places and I didn't notice?

there has never been an actual dictatorship of the proletariat, why do these things even need to be stated for the millionth time (and yes I would prefer one to our other current options)

like much of marx the term dictatorship of the proletariat is glib, never clearly defined, and utterly useless/senseless as something to aim for.

apparently Fidel's coffin is being pulled by an '80s Soviet jeep, so the laffs keep coming.

I went to Karl Marx's tomb in London on Monday (unrelated). His bust should have a tape loop that plays "Look What They Done to My Song, Ma."

Been reading a lot recently about Robespierre and the Committee for Public Safety, so up to my eyeballs in this sort of stuff.

― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.)

Robespierre was up to his eyeballs in stuff at the guillotine iirc

cool to see ppl in the 21st century still defending the concept of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" like it's anything but an excuse for, well, dictatorship

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 30 November 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Its not an excuse - it IS dictatorship. You've imposed a revolutionary workers state: redistribution of land at its most antagonistic but also a socialist programme that includes education and healthcare for ALL and where homelessness is illegal. In a system of elections with two competing governments these reform-like programmes can be rolled back. How do you keep the gains made through struggle and social movements when the oligarchical powers simply don't want that and will try and turn state powers against you if you try. Imposing a dictatorship from the left is desirable.

I am sure some people looking at the end of Obamacare and climate change reforms would sympathise.

Also thinking about freedoms of the press that many of you hold so dear. In England we have a system where most information -- at print level anyway -- is dominated by elite interests that distort and actively misinform the public for its own ends, so this is certainly an argument for forms of suppression. Its certainly where I am differing from the liberal mind-set. No apology for any of that.

In England we had the Leveson enquiry and that was buried because Liberals defend their right to say absolutely anything and half of them are crying over Brexit, saying the population is uneducated and wanting to undemocratically roll back the result of a referendum. That is their contradictory answer. While the oligarchy laugh all the way through it. You couldn't make it up.

xyzzzz__ otm throughout

stalinist bullshit tbh

Imposing a dictatorship from the left is desirable

i'll tell this to my cousin who left the country because of poverty, hunger, and oppression.

she now lives in the liberal dystopia known as england

Imposing a dictatorship from the left is desirable.

Good to know. I'll be sure to hum the Internationale while electricity is applied to my balls.

Stalin didn't give a fuck about redistributing land, universal education or universal healthcare, or the workers being in charge of anything, to be clear

I will grant that Castro did the second – marginally.

like what good is a dictatorship of the proletariat to me if it's going to scapegoat the Jews (ps: it definitely will)

"Who in History but Robespierre is specifically disliked for his virtue?"

dogma and reality are utterly divorced in nearly any community of more than 2000 people

er Silby no: anti-semitism was as much a problem on the right as on the left if anything, especially in Catholic countries (Dreyfus affair) and if anyone is going to be made up as scapegoat it will be the Muslims and migrants from the global south. Anti-semitism has been mostly weaponised as an issue to beat the falteringly resurgent left here (in the guise of Corbyn's labour).

And "to be clear" Stalin was the son of a cobbler who rose up to be the head of the workers state. Its not about a leader making it happen but having structures in place so that someone from that background could rise up to become leader. From that perspective its a triumph, not so from the gulags and millions murdered.

I wouldn't say Dictatorship of the Proletariat --> mass graves today. I doubt the form of this will be repeated now but as a thing to try and stabilise the state from counter-insurgency they had to do something against the oligarchy. Again, Obama care is going to be privatized and everyone is silent on that.

Imposing a dictatorship from the left is desirable

i'll tell this to my cousin who left the country because of poverty, hunger, and oppression.

― harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 1 December 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Please ask your cousin whether the poverty, homelessness, hunger is ok British style. Also the effective gulags many people who work at bare minimum win wage have to endure unless a reporter goes undercover and finds out about it. I guess the free press has some uses huh?

How many people could Stalin have murdered and transported and still been a triumph

Is there as left wing equivalent of Godwin's Law?

would godwin's law apply if your interlocutor was making a case for fascism?

xyzzzz__ otm throughout
― conrad, Thursday, 1 December 2016 11:58 (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

u said it m8

wtf @ everything xyzzzz just said, basically

He's making a case for the Dictatorship of the Proletariat not Stalinism though. (xxxp)

And "to be clear" Stalin was the son of a cobbler who rose up to be the head of the workers state. Its not about a leader making it happen but having structures in place so that someone from that background could rise up to become leader. From that perspective its a triumph, not so from the gulags and millions murdered.

this is lol

so awesome to have a structure where a completely amoral murderous thug can become supreme ruler, really amazing victory for the proletariat there.

Obama care is going to be privatized and everyone is silent on that.

odds of this happening are not all that strong and people are not silent on it

obamacare...was already privatized

altho yes it's def gonna be gutted don't know what shakey is smoking

Legal w33d

Posted?

http://www.clickhole.com/article/one-last-humiliation-cia-just-bungled-attempt-drop-5205

VG+

Obama care is going to be privatized and everyone is silent on that.

odds of this happening are not all that strong and people are not silent on it

― Οὖτις, Friday, 2 December 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

'maybe Trump and his mates won't do it'. All-round lolz.

The current structure is allowing for a president Trump. I don't think Anne Applebaum fans are going to stop this, somehow.

Again, Obama care is going to be privatized and everyone is silent on that.

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, December 1, 2016 3:02 PM (yesterday)

Obamacare was a compromise with some unfortunate aspects and language attached to it, like the "Individual Responsibility Payment" which is what they call the penalty people pay for not buying insurance. And yes, the penalty is an "incentive" and a way to "subsidize" the program for the greater good, but it's still shitty.

no one should be able to opt out of paying for health care. the young and able bodied should pay towards caring for the old and disabled. it should ofc be rolled into general taxes rather than being a discrete payment easily resented by those who are indignant at having to live in a society but I don't see a way round it

I think the hardest thing about evaluating someone like Castro is what the context of comparison should be. Obviously if you are a middle-class person in the quasi-democratic and resource-rich United States in 2016, you might say "well Castro was bad because look at life under him in Cuba." But what was life like for most people under Batista? What was life like for most people under right-wing regimes in Latin America? How many did Pinochet execute in a much much shorter timeframe? How many were killed by Colombian paramilitaries? How free and bountiful was life under those regimes?

How do we talk about Castro versus despots who are our allies?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/23/world/middleeast/king-abdullah-who-nudged-saudi-arabia-forward-dies-at-90.html?_r=0

a funny thing is how on these threads, the very well-read xyzzzz comes across as very ... strong in his opinions (structures that produced Stalin were good!), very tough, and even occasionally aggressive --

yet I have met xyzzzz and he is not like that at all when I meet him!

I suppose he is a Keyboard Warrior. Perhaps we all are.

is keyboard war anything like virtue signals?

I think it is a bit different -- VS seems to suggest something phoney and putting on a show of being good, whereas I think KWs work themselves up into genuine anger or passion, in a way that seems logical on the keyboard but perhaps does not seem so inuitive in face to face interaction.

'maybe Trump and his mates won't do it'. All-round lolz.

it's more like I'm not sure they will be able to

are they sort of opposites then?

virtue signal = online pretend nice, in person reality not nice

keyboard war = online reality not nice, in person pretend nice

I think the hardest thing about evaluating someone like Castro is what the context of comparison should be. Obviously if you are a middle-class person in the quasi-democratic and resource-rich United States in 2016, you might say "well Castro was bad because look at life under him in Cuba." But what was life like for most people under Batista? What was life like for most people under right-wing regimes in Latin America? How many did Pinochet execute in a much much shorter timeframe? How many were killed by Colombian paramilitaries? How free and bountiful was life under those regimes?

― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, December 2, 2016 6:39 AM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

3527 or so. but the pinochet regime was egregiously violent and horrendous (ive unfortunately read the rettig report, lots of things i can never forget in there), and if you have to resort to that sort of whataboutery to defend castro then i have to shrug

it's not "whataboutery" it's let's look at what the alternatives in the region were, i.e. repressive US-backed regimes. Batista also killed many more civilians in a much shorter timespan than Castro. Is it "whataboutery" to compare him to his predecessor?

let's not start comparing body counts, please. We might as well poll them.

per capita

it's not "whataboutery" it's let's look at what the alternatives in the region were, i.e. repressive US-backed regimes. Batista also killed many more civilians in a much shorter timespan than Castro. Is it "whataboutery" to compare him to his predecessor?

― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, December 2, 2016 9:52 AM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's literally the definition of whataboutery

like hot takes on twitter "americans criticizing cuba for human rights abuses, when the u.s. runs a torture camp in cuba". it's like "yes, it is possible for them both to be bad, and for the badness of one not to justify or mitigate against the badness of the other"

no, that's really not what my post said at all

what I'm asking is whether it's reasonable to place a leader on a "good/bad" binary where there was no option for what you think of as "good" and where the U.S. actively supported options that were worse than Castro.

"Both things are bad" is a gratingly simplistic take.

the revolution in cuba started as a revolution against batista to reinstate the liberal democratic constitution of cuba. this is what the majority of the fighters in the revolution thought they were achieving when the revolt began. that would have been better

That "or so" is doing a lot of work

But to get back to the rest of the continent, once you understand that latin american history started with a massacre you start to understand the dynamics of LA politics

And more importantly the uncountable genocide of its indigenous peoples, who were really what "the proletariat" referred to

It was very much the colonizers (or as marti would say, the europeanized elite) vs the autochthonous peoples

By the Jim in Vancouver standard of any leader who did anything bad is bad, all world leaders in history have been bad.

but all world leaders in history have been bad

any dictator is bad. any multimillionaire who rules over hungry subjects is bad. anyone who jails people for being gay is bad. i almost feel like these arent things you can argue about but apparently you can.

The United States jailed people for being gay.

it was illegal to have gay sex in scotland until 1980. we weren't routinely arresting people for looking gay and sending them to reeducation camps though. perhaps it was different in the u.s.

can't believe we're having this argument

nobody here, even people with personal connections to victims of castro's regime, has argued that he is the world's worst dictator evah, on a par with stalin etc

so stop arguing as though we're the nyt editorial team in here, whitewashing US-friendly tyrants while demonizing US-defiant ones.

man alive, it's not that i'm dead-set against your idea of keeping options and context in mind when evaluating a castro, but i think your view of those options is artificially narrow.

the revolution in cuba started as a revolution against batista to reinstate the liberal democratic constitution of cuba. this is what the majority of the fighters in the revolution thought they were achieving when the revolt began. that would have been better

― harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Friday, December 2, 2016 6:10 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago)

^^^^

Didn't they execute a lot of gays too? Did Castro approve of most of the executions and bans at the start of the revolution?

Once read that Castro slept with thousands of women and eventually some men, but it was in a crappy Vice article.

World leaders that loved their executions:
Hitler
Stalin
Pinochet
Castro
Pol Pot
Duterte

Mao might be offended to not be included.

He admitted it was his fault in 2008

http://www.lavanguardia.com/internacional/20100901/53993588991/fidel-castro-asume-su-culpa-por-la-persecucion-de-homosexuales-en-cuba-hace-cinco-decadas.html

Sex changes became legal in 2008

And raul castro's daughter works to "reclaim"gay and lesbian rights

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_National_Center_for_Sex_Education

By latin american standards, it's pretty progressive

What would the reinstatement of the liberal democratic constitution of Cuba done? Would it have delivered the the eradication of illteracy? Constitutions aren't worth a damn if they don't get people fed.

Obamacare is a classic example of this:

Obamacare was a compromise with some unfortunate aspects and language attached to it, like the "Individual Responsibility Payment" which is what they call the penalty people pay for not buying insurance. And yes, the penalty is an "incentive" and a way to "subsidize" the program for the greater good, but it's still shitty.

― sarahell, Friday, 2 December 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes it seemed like crumbs compared to healthcare systems in Europe (and Cuba) but from my reading of it I saw Obamacare as something positive which at some point could've been expanded. Can't see that suriviving the attacks on it, even if it survives by whatever legal channels shakey is dreaming about policy makers will find ways to undermine it. Over here, our NHS is totally undermined even though its absolute electoral disaster for any party wanting to privatize it, however we will probably have to pay for it in some way in a few years.

Mao might be offended to not be included.

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, December 2, 2016 10:57 AM (seven minutes ago)

sorry, should have made it clearer that I was just starting the nominations list for execution-loving world leaders, and people should add to it.

The Constitution of 1940 is an impressive document – the most liberal in the Western hemisphere, and at least Grau and Prio enforced it. Then it was treated as toilet paper, like most constitutions.

Pinefox - its not that "structures that produced Stalin were good!" rather its "structures that mean the son of a peasant worker could become leader of a state" is a positive thing!Especially when nobody from that class got near power in Russia before the Revolution, unless it was Rasputin.

Over here we want to see competent, good people that aren't from Oxford and Eton in power but the system is clearly stacked against them.

xp = Impressive, ok? Was it going to eradicate illiteracy?

well, one of Fidel's initial promises was to enforce it, so obv it mean something.

OK.

This take on Cuba is a pretty good summary: https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/30/the-end-of-fidel-castro/

ILX's consensus seems to be that Fidel's legacy is a highly mixed bag in which one may cite both positive and negative actions, but that his rule should not be judged on the basis of false equivalences with other regimes elsewhere, but judged rather on its own merits and demerits.

There. We did it. Onward to greater things!

love too execute myself but i never had the rhetoric

Pinefox - its not that "structures that produced Stalin were good!" rather its "structures that mean the son of a peasant worker could become leader of a state" is a positive thing!Especially when nobody from that class got near power in Russia before the Revolution, unless it was Rasputin.

― xyzzzz__, Friday, December 2, 2016 7:18 PM (yesterday)

ffs stalin was part of the revolution that seized power, he didn't work his way up from the bottom in the glorious "workers' state"

btw we once had a president who was born in a log cabin, you may have heard of him

and that president's successor was a tailor!

What about that rich bloke that took a pay cut to be pres?

"btw" over here we've had a PM who was a grocer's daughter and another who didn't even have much further education.

I don't know why you are attempting nuance you won't give Castro and the Cuban revolution - yes being part of the Bolsheviks was Stalin's route, the group that seized power. There would've been little if no means for him to get anywhere near there. Don't give a 'ffs'.

To widen the point around structure is that it becomes likely that you could attain all kinds of higher office by coming from that background. Look at Morales. Its not just about the leader being of a particular class or skin colour (that's become clearer than ever with Obama). We need more people that struggle with the policies imposed by people at the top having an active voice that is heard and acted upon. Of course there are other qualities - and even then it doesn't mean you will do the right things once you get there because of class mobility - but looking at the West its fully run by technocrats who just *don't care* that people are dying for austerity. Trump ran as anti-Washington and that criticism completely stuck, and he is from that group!

But please JD and Alfred do that President biog reading group thing you both do - give your guys and what they were up to the nuance they deserve. Its very nice to watch.

better than watching some twerp masturbate into a scarf whispering 'holodomor' over and over that's for sure

A poster named 'balls' has just talked about masturbation. barrel-fish.jpg

The ending this thread deserves tbh.

xyzzzz, yr posts make me glad i've always been creeped out by ppl who bought into 20th century marxist ideologies and never bought into any of their evil bullshit, since it apparently erodes yr ability to think and argue coherently along with wiping out the basic sense of decency that keeps most of us from sticking up for murderous dictators and sneering at people whose families have been hurt by them. have no idea what you're arguing anymore and don't care. glad you feel superior to people who read anne applebaum (and orwell), tho. have fun w/ that.

(The Other) J.D. are you arguing coherently about what in history "would have been better" and once having had a president born in a log cabin? I mean it's good to be glad (I think) but perhaps you've found more comfort than is available

I....don't think he's congratulating America for producing a president born in a log cabin.

is it better to hardon for stuff that didnt happen vs stuff that never will

conrad: my point was that we have had numerous leaders who weren't born into wealth or privileged (bill clinton's father was a traveling salesman) and it has failed to curb the power of the wealthy or the privileged in any respect. i brought it up to counter xyzzzz's weird notion that the soviet system was great because it allowed "the son of a peasant worker" to become leader of the state, which seems absurdly trivial in light of the obscene and nightmarish nature of the state he's praising.

^^ first use of "privileged" should be "privilege"